Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today. Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it. This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council? THE START OF THE NASC Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC. Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do? WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL? It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow. Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold. Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation. And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again? CHANGE IN FORMULATION Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace. And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies? STUDIES AND TRIALS Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it. That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US? ONLY US COMPANIES? Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US. got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back. SPONSOR AD Thanks to Dog Love essential oils for sponsoring this episode. They say it comes in many forms. And in this case, love comes in a bottle. Our canine companions are more than just pets. They're cherished family members. 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And here's a special treat during the entire month of December, enjoy a generous 15% off every order of $25 or more by using the code WAGOUTLOUD . Dog Love Oils… love in a bottle. And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit? TRUST, BUT VERIFY Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background? You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency. I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there? MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day. Good for you. So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do. Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC? So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member. And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you? HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake. Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business. Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing. We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right? Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that? WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION? Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional. Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally. Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement? HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that? Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today? Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening. Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes. OFFER: And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division. So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. It's an honor. Thanks again to Dog Love Oils for sponsoring this episode and for their unwavering dedication to our beloved canine companions. Save 15% off any of their exceptional products during the month of December 2023. By using code WAGOUTLOUD on your purchase of $25 or more. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello there this is Krista with Episode #188 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Are you a smoker? Well consider this, all pets are at risk of developing breathing problems, as well as eye and skin irritations when they're exposed to smoke and smoke residue. Here's some alarming facts: when burned cigarettes release over 7000 chemicals. dogs that live in a smoking environment are two times more likely to develop lung or nasal cancers and inhaled tobacco smoke particles. They stay trapped in the noses of long nosed dog breeds, like greyhounds or Borzois or Doberman Pinchers, so they have a double risk of nose cancer. and the short and medium-nosed breeds like pugs, Bulldogs beagles, Brittany Spaniels, well, they have a higher risk of lung cancer, because their noses are much shorter, and more chemicals go directly into their lungs. As we all know, cancer can cut years from your dog's life. So maybe consider quitting smoking. Our dogs do so much for us. Do this for yourself and for them. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Welcome dog lovers to the podcast where we can all learn something new when it comes to caring for our dog's health and wellness. And joining me today is Susie Cyrenne, and she is an expert on homeopathy for dogs, and she's going to be sharing with us the things you've probably never heard before when it comes to homeopathy. So Suzie, I have been looking forward to this interview for quite some time. And I just want to ask you to first introduce yourself and share with us. How did you get into homeopathy for pets? Oh, that's great. Thank you, Krista for having me. I'm honored. And yes, it's been a while it's been almost a year. So yeah, so my name is Suzie. I've been having this e commerce brand called Zumalka for now 10 years. So we sell homeopathy, homeopathy and natural supplements for pets, cats and dogs. And how I got into this, this business is quite the story. So I started I think dating my husband about 13 years ago. And when we did that, he told me his mom practiced homeopathy, I had no clue what that meant. And so I actually had been on prescription drugs for many years because I had skin issues, and I couldn't find anything to fix them. So I was just really desperate to find a solution. I wanted to try anything, anything new that I could find. And that's when I tried homeopathy for the first time. I tried it for myself. And I got excellent results. I wanted clear skin for my wedding. And I did that and it my step mom made it happen. So So for me, it was it meant a lot because it's not just about finding a natural product, but it's all you know, it's our self esteem, it can mean a lot of things. So I yeah, I was very happy to have found resolution, but not only that, a natural way too. So I follow this protocol for a few months and then cleared up my skin. And I just really realized at that time. Okay, well, first, what's homeopathy learn it really the nice way. And it works. That's what I realized. So. And this question, this question came up, why weren’t there alternative and natural options like this for pets? At the time, if you go back almost like 15 years ago, it's honestly it wasn't something that was very common. So yeah, so eventually, this led to a new and unique line of natural remedies for pets or recipes, that we pretty much serve mostly the US, though we do a little bit of here and there in the world. But that yeah, so that's how Zumalka came to life. Wow, so you are living proof on homeopathy. And first, I guess before we dig in, what is homeopathy? Can you define that for us? WHAT IS HOMEOPATHY? Absolutely. Homeopathy is a type of alternative medicine. And it was actually born in the 19th century. So if you don't remember your history too much, that's at the time when they practiced medicine, and it was very unregulated, very dangerous. So purging blood, blistering were standard practices, and they actually died from the treatments they received most of the time. So it's been a while back now. And at that exact time, there was this German physician whose name was Samuel Hahnemann. Hahnemann, I never know how to pronounce that name is German. But you were very concerned about the medicine being practiced at that time. And so that's when he started doing his own research. And I guess I'm giving a little bit of background on homeopathy as well. Yeah, yeah, it helps. Because homeopathy, I find it's very, it's hard to grasp as a concept when you first hear about it. So hearing the story, I feel helps. So, so yeah, this so this German physician, he actually started doing his own research. And he found a bark called the cinchona bark that was used at the time for malaria. So he tried the bark, even though he didn't have malaria on himself. And after he tried it, he felt sick, like he had malaria. And when he stopped using it, he felt better. So that's when he realized that if something makes a healthy person sick, maybe it can also help it can make a sick person better. So it kind of, it's the other way around, it cancels out. So that's when the principle of homeopathy first came to life. And you'll hear that maybe when you hear homeopathy, you'll heard of a principle call, like cures like. So that means that a substance that causes symptoms in a healthy person or pet is the same thing is capable of healing those same symptoms in a diseased person or pet. So he tried this idea with many other things, got the same results, and that's how homeopathy was born. So that's what it is. It's really this alternative type of medicine that’s made with all kinds of natural products that you can find in nature. And it's highly diluted as well. And, yeah, water has a lot of vibration in it. And it can, honestly, we could go on like this for a long time. But it's really a great type of alternative medicine. Perfect. Well, thank you for that background. I think that helps us. And I'm really excited, because I don't know the answers that you're going to give us. So why don't we start with the facts that you're going to share? And most likely, most of us won't know all of these facts about homeopathy and how they can benefit our dogs. FUN FACTS ABOUT HOMEOPATHY Yeah, absolutely. So it's actually very, like I said, it's about 200 years old homeopathy. But a lot of things we don't know is that it's actually even nowadays widely used. In other countries like India, I think that's probably the number one country, it's used in England, and other European countries, a lot. England, France, countries like that. And even though here in North America, we don't use it a lot. It's not very well known. If we look. And if we look into the statistics from the World Health Organization, they actually, after doing a lot of surveys, and they actually came up with this is that homeopathy is the fastest growing, and second most widely used system of medicine in the world. So yeah, that's crazy. I think that's just amazing. Because we're so in here, we're in our little closed system of, we use a lot of conventional medicine, which has all of its benefits, but we can't I didn't grasp the idea that it was such. First, it's something that exists, and it's really widely used. More than 200 million people actually use homeopathy worldwide. So that's a lot. That's an awesome fact. I did not know that. Yeah, and what else? HOMEOPATHIC HOSPITALS? Um, well, last time, I think we spoke about hospitals, I think, yeah, let's talk about that. So in the late 1800s, again, when homeopathy was quite new, but it really made a difference fast. And I was talking about Europe, India, they still use it today. But we most people don't know is that there were several homeopathic hospitals in the US, in Canada in those days. So several cities in the United States had homeopathic hospitals and the number of homeopathic practitioners. I think at that time, were about like, we would count them in 1000s. So there were actually a lot. And so you had a homeopathic practitioner, they had actually established medical schools, journals. So They were actually dedicated to the practice of advancement of homeopathy. So that's quite surprising, because that's not all we see today. And here's what happened, the popularity of homeopathy in North America started to decline when the conventional institutions came in with all the pharmaceuticals and all all kinds of things like that. So, Yeah, I think unfortunately, for us, especially now, in our society, we want everything now. Yeah. And that's where the pharmaceuticals even though they're probably in most cases, not addressing the root cause of our issues. They're just a band aid. But we, you know, we think, Oh, it's working, because I can see results immediately. Yeah, versus going down the path of homeopathy, which is so holistic and natural. It's not an overnight, and you're not going to see. So do you want to talk about that? You know, it? It. Goodness comes to those who wait? CAN’T RUSH HOMEOPATHY Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are a lot of benefits to using homeopathy and just other other natural alternatives. And yes, I would say most of the time, it will take more time to see results. But sometimes it can be actually very surprising, we can actually get a lot of benefits. But to the ones who are ready to wait, when we think about it, it's it's very safe. I mean, it's non toxic. It's all natural, you, you can't go wrong when you use natural remedies, or homeopathy. And like you said, it aims to treat the whole animal it actually aims to treat the root cause not just the symptoms, which most prescription drugs today will do. It doesn't. Doctors are usually not just in conventional medicine, there may be not trained to look at the root cause of issues, they just go by different systems in the body, which is not a bad thing. But yeah, if you really want to get rid of the problem once and for all, then usually that's a great way to see it. And homeopathy does just that. So usually, when we take a problem case, we don't try to just take care of the symptoms. Our question is, how can we make sure this doesn't come back later on? So that's one great thing. And it’s side effect free. It's very, there are barely no side effects. And if there are, it's sometimes, the only reason is maybe you're just not taking the right product that you shouldn’t be taking. But I do not, it's pretty easy to to give and take, but is it so easy to figure out which to take because let's say my dog has allergies, you know, that's a big box, you don't know where they're getting it from? Why were on the body? Can you see? Or are they itching? So how do you know which homeopathic remedies to actually say, I think this is what we should try on your dog. WHAT FORMULATION IS BEST FOR MY DOG? I think that's probably maybe the most difficult thing to get yourself into and find your, your, your route to which remedy you should be using, especially when you're new to homeopathy because first of all, the ingredients are usually in Latin, who understands Latin and we don't you so you do need a little bit of a base. But I mean, it's easy to find that if you're just willing to go to your your library, buy a book on just homeopathy basics, though, it'll be like a little dictionary of symptom issues and which remedies can be good. It's so what I love about homeopathy, it's just, it's very up. It pinpoints the very smallest detail of your symptoms. If for example, your your dog has joint issues. Well it'll ask like Is he better like during the day see worse in the morning, like you'll have different remedies. for very specific symptoms that your pet will have. So that's great. But other than that, the practitioners are there, you can always go to an expert, we’re here for that. You can go to your health food store, usually a lot of the time it'll be either a homeopath or a natural path that will be able to help you so they'll help you direct your way to the right products. But yes, it again, it's not as easy as 123 Sometimes you just need that little bit of knowledge. But once you get past that, it's just like it's a new world world that opens up to you. Wonderful. Well Suzie, this is a great spot where we are going to take a quick commercial break. So hold tight everybody and we'll be back with Suzie. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. And welcome back to Suzie and our listeners, we are learning so much about homeopathy and how it can benefit our dogs. So Suzie, you were just talking about how to give the right homeopathic remedies in a formula for your dogs. And the nice thing about Zumalka that I love is that you've already created formulas for the, I guess, the cases that you see the most of you know, what are our dogs suffering from? And how can homeopathy help? How do you come up with those formulas? And what would you say? Are the top five issues that dogs have that homeopathy can come to the rescue? TOP 5 ISSUES THAT HOMEOPATHY CAN HELP TREAT Hmm, that's such a great question. So yeah, for exactly what you just pin pointed out. Previously, since homeopathy is, especially when you're new to it, you feel like you need that support. And somehow, so we're we just decided to create a line of products that kind of gets rid of that friction and that complicated journey of finding, like trying to find your product for your pets. So we just created formulations for one specific issue that includes all kinds of ingredients that can help address that issue. So the way it works is that, let's say your pet has, let's say I was talking about joint issues. Well, we took like the most common ingredients in homeopathy, put them in one bottle. And usually homeopathy, you just need that only one ingredient for it to make to be effective and to solve your pet’s issues. So like keeping that in mind, our goal is to make sure that in our mix, there's that that one remedy that's really for your pet, that will really solve the issue. And the what's beautiful with is that even if your your dog is taking the other ingredients in there that are maybe not necessarily 100% on point, it's not going to cause any side effects, the body will take in it really nicely. And also we have homeopaths on board. And what's what we love to do. And for us, it's so important to make sure that your pet gets the results. And that you feel supported that everyone like comes to us and asks us what would be good for my dog? Well, we make sure that every single recommendation that we give out, has been seen by a homeopath, we don't even charge for that. every single morning, or both girls come in, they filter out the cases and everything has to go through the homeopath before it goes to the actual customer. So just because we we want to make sure you're well served, you want to make sure you get those results and that you're supported because we understand that homeopathy, especially when you're new to it is maybe not as easy. Yeah. As we'd like to so so yeah, so that's what we do. We also have products come in spray spray form just because we feel it's easier. You can put in your pet’s mouth or something like that. But the easiest way to give it just one spray in your dog’s bowl, that's what I do with my dog and it works wonders. Yeah, so that's what we really love doing. That's how we help customers find their way through homeopathy. And I would say you were asking about the five maybe top illnesses that are issues that we help out with, I would say our number one that we deal several times a day, I don't even count them anymore i s cancer care. We really are in cancer care, I would say 50% of our our Pet Pet customers are have cancer, which is sad, but at least at the same time we feel like we can really support them and give them what they need to help increase their quality of life. Other than that, we have anything for oral oral issues so, Tartar accumulation, Gingivitis, loose teeth. So all of those issues are very common for most dogs, I would say. And if we're going to go into more senior age, then yes, joint issues, arthritis. That's something that comes up a lot. And other than that, allergies. You were talking about allergies before. That's a big one, especially like seasonal allergies. Yeah, I don't know how many that makes. But I would say those are our top. Yeah, that we see on a most frequently. Okay, well, that makes sense. And yes, it's unfortunate that over half of our dogs now we're getting cancer. So yeah, I'm glad that you have options for people that want to go a natural route. Yeah. Well, the proof is in the pudding. And we all love on the show to hear success stories. So do you have a few that come? Top of Mind? You know, somebody came to you with these issues with their dogs, and you were able to help them through homeopathy? HOMEOPATHY FOR ORAL ISSUES & CANCER? Yeah, sure. Um, I have a first one that comes to mind, we're talking about oral issues, which I think every dog owner will find this relatable. So our pets, they all accumulate tartar like the brown stuff on the teeth. That were we usually try to brush your dog's teeth, right. So sometimes it's not easy. Let's, let's say it. we do our best. But our cats don't usually really appreciate them, maybe, but mostly don't appreciate getting their teeth brushed. So we do this time. Not so long ago, this three year old dog Rottweiler, he was not fond of his parents actually sticking stuff in his mouth and trying to clean and brush his teeth. So they were actually really worried they would have to sedate him to have a dental cleaning. So it's not something you take lightly. It's not like us humans going to the get a cleaning, we have to put them under anesthesia. So it comes with consequences or possible side effects. So they were looking for a natural remedy. And yeah, they tried homeopathy on their dog. So first, they tried in the mouth, it didn't work hungry. So they tried in the bowl, like I said earlier. And what I found surprising from his story is that after only four treatments, though, that's the equivalent of like four days, there was an extremely noticeable difference in his teeth, so. Yeah, like black, teeth, almost black, brown has teeth filled with tartar, which is really not not common at three years old, that’s very young. So I don't know what's happening there. But like it started coming off just in pieces just like that. So in just a few days, so I always like seeing that because if it can at least not 100% completely avoid a dental cleaning, because eventually, we need to get that tarter removed at the vet. But if we can at least space out those vet visits, then great. I'm happy. So that's just one light little story. But like I was saying earlier, we deal with cancer, a lot. And so that's for us, it's a it's our daily bread. It's that even if it's more serious, and yeah, so the trick, we have several things that we help out with to significantly increase the life of 1000s and 1000s of pets every year. And we use a combination of homeopathy but also supplements, we find that when you join, put those two types of different types of alternative medicines together really worthwhile. Especially with cancer. So we just went through we had this 10 year old poodle, her name was Shelby. She was in remission, which was great. And unfortunately, she came out of remission, the cancer came back. So that was that's what was pretty sad. That's when her pet her pet parents came to us and she had to go through chemo again. So at that time, she was really weak, depressed, she wasn't really eating much. She was anemic, all of that. So um, so we had her start a homeopathic and mushroom based protocol. And mushrooms are also excellent, especially when it comes to cancer cases to support the animal. And in just a bit of time, her blood count her RN were much higher, she was eating every meal. And she was chasing, I think her one year old poodle brother around the house again, which was an in really like Not a lot of time. So she was feeling overall energetic, happy. So that I mean, that's a reward on a daily basis to be able to see where the pet started and have that feeling that we were able to help and support and give not only more years to a pet, but a quality of life, which is very important. Wow, I love it. And your products are for both cats and dogs, correct? Yes, they are. We do cats and dogs mostly, but they're good for horses, pigs, goats, you name it. That’s fantastic. Well, again, the name of your company is Zumalka. How do you How are you different from others in the industry? ZUMALKA Yeah, that's a great question. So like I said a little bit before um, We make sure that every single recommendation that goes out, we're not we don't just sell products. That's not how we want to be seen. We just offer a really good service. And so everything that, of course, you can go online and buy your products if that's what you want. But if the minute you come to us and ask us this, you ask us a question of what would be good for your pet, we have a full team match with ready to help. And I feel that you that's lacking a little bit in the industry at the moment unless you pay for a consultation. So we just offer it because we really believe that's that's how important it is to make sure you're directly directed properly towards the right remedies. Yeah, so our spree our products come and sprays and I would say we specialize in cancer care like that we put a lot of focus and effort in finding ways to help pets with cancer in the last years or so I think that's really something that we love doing on a day to day and are good. OFFER Well, for those interested in the audience, and you should be because the Zumalka products are absolutely amazing. And the formulations that are already there, make it easy for us to pick and choose. And the free consulting. You're right who does that? That is amazing. So Suzie has an offer for us. I am an affiliate because I love, love, love their products and what this company is all about. So if you want to try any of the outstanding Zumalka remedies, you can get a 10% discount by using my code, WOL10. When you purchase at Zumalka.com And that spelled Z U M A L K A.com. And you also get a free consults. So that is an amazing offer. Thank you, Suzie to you and your team. And unfortunately like usual, we come up to our time is coming to an end. But what do you want to leave us with today? And that's a good thing. If you're new to homeopathy or just natural alternative medicine in general, give it a try. Give it a try. It's definitely a great way to help your pet, support your pet, strengthen your pet. It's a great gift that you can offer your dog. Wonderful. Well, Suzie, thanks for being here. Where can everyone find out more about you and Zumalka? Sure well, Zumalka.com and we do have a YouTube channel if you type in Zumalka you can also find us there to learn up all kinds of things about natural products for your dog. FB: @Zumalka IG: @ZumalkaOfficial Perfect, Suzie, thank you so much. I know that you guys are going to continue to come out with more products to help our dogs and cats naturally. So I just want to thank you for all that you do and making a difference. Thank you Krista. It was a pleasure. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code wol10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. 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Hello dog parents! This is Krista with Episode #187 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Just checking to see if you have looked into the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend. And these are products that I have researched and tried that I know, like and trust. And these products will help your dog to thrive as well. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with so many very important resources for both you and your dog. Here is some good news. Pet Food Labels are getting an overhaul starting next year in 2024. And it's going to look more like human nutrition labels, which should make them easier to understand. The Nutrition Facts box will replace the current Guaranteed Analysis section and the calorie statement and also new, there's going to be a specific statement of intended use. For example 100% complete food for adult dogs. And an optional label item will be handling and storage instructions. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello again dog lovers. Thanks for tuning in to a nother informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. Today. I am so lucky to have not one, but two guests. With me today is Dr. Rory Lubold and Dr. Joe Menicucci. And they are here to chat about the Pawfect Health Watch: a complete guide for monitoring your dog's health. And that's what we're all about. Right, is dog health. So gentlemen, welcome to the Show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. Well, I'm excited. We've had this on the books for quite a while. Before we get started. Why don't each of you introduce yourselves and tell us why you wanted to cover this topic that we're discussing right now on how to monitor our dog's health? Absolutely, we'd love to like give you some background, my name is Rory Lubold. I'm a veterinarian, practicing exclusively in the emergency realm and really love this topic, because it's so important to really focus on on preventative care and maintenance of health and identifying diseases early, so the pets don't get sick or have it more mild if they do. And so this is a really important topic for me because it helps keep our pets out of emergency rooms or being sick for any reason that we can avoid. Yeah, and my name is Dr. Joe Menicucci. I'm a veterinarian as well. Actually, Rory and I have been We were classmates, but then also friends for oh, 19 years now. So excited to do this together. We both have like he was saying a passion for pets and making sure that they're healthy. So yeah, my background is that I've done a lot of mixed animal medicine, a lot of mobile stuff. So I would be going to the pet parents’ house and doing more the wellness and care there. So thank you for having us on. Well, I'm glad you're here to give us a great educational opportunity. So we're gonna be covering the this is a really crucial topic, everybody. Pet Health Management, of course, specifically, we're focusing on dogs. And gentlemen, when we originally spoke, you said that as a dedicated pet parent, our responsibility really goes beyond just providing you know, the food, the shelter, and of course, lots of love. But now we need to understand how to monitor our dog's health to ensure that they do have a happy and healthy life. So I know there's a protocol that you suggest. So why don't we start there and unpack what that protocol looks like. THE PROTOCOL OF MONITORING Great. Happy to dive into that a little bit. So obviously, as you've mentioned, Food, shelter and love are the first key components, right? Good healthy food and, and great, great home for them. It's so, so important. The next step beyond that really is focusing on on monitoring. And so there are some things that are pretty, pretty standard monitoring protocol that that everybody's probably familiar with. You check the stool sample for worms for puppies, and you do heartworm testing every year. And those are, those are a great start, there's really a next step beyond that. And it depends a little bit on your region, depends a little bit on what kind of pet you have more age they are. So this is really kind of custom tailored. And we do recommend consulting with your veterinarian, as well, because this is a partnership on how do we keep them healthy as long as possible, and have them live as good a life as possible. So the policies or the protocol, rather, that we we recommend, typically says you know, in most areas of the country, checking a stool sample every every year is probably good enough, in some areas every six months is probably is probably ideal, because there's areas that are have a higher load of parasites. And so that's really important that you're checking stool samples more frequently. In pets that are over three, four or five years old dogs and cats. What we really recommend as veterinarians and most veterinarians have found to be really helpful is starting to check anually for organ functions. So you can certainly check that younger as well. And anytime at about three years old, we really should be looking for organ functions like liver, kidneys, bone marrow function, urinalysis, which is such a key component to that as well. And so you know, we really believe that that annual monitoring is sort of a minimum. And then and then once they get up to the 5, 6, 7 range, being able to check them every six months, is really key. And in some areas that also includes infectious diseases like tick ,tick borne diseases and fungal diseases. Right. And Dr. Roy, I am glad that you are talking about this. Because we really need to get a baseline on our animals to find out, you know, what's normal for them? Can you talk about the baseline information? What it helps us with? And when, h ow soon should we start, you know, monitoring all of these different areas. HAVE A BASELINE Yeah, I think the baseline is so important to really understand that you need to kind of look at it and say a single point in time gives us some good information. So data that we take, say we take a blood test today, that's really important. But if we take that blood test again, in six months or a year, the change between today and then is one of the biggest things that that we as veterinarians will look at. And so it's not just a single point in time, but being able to watch trends and being able to better understand what these changes mean for them, allows us to intervene, change the nutrition, change the medications, change lifestyle, that will actually help to stave off some of the medical conditions that are coming. I think as we as we move into the sort of the machine learning and extra data, stuff that's happening in the world, there's obviously a lot of that happening, that trend is going to be even more important because we're going to see more detail from from having baselines, and then figuring out what changes in three 6-12 months to be able to predict future diseases and head them off before they actually become a problem. And when we take our dogs to the vet, besides, you know, the eye, ears, nose, heart, the diagnostics that we've just mentioned, you know, the stool sample, urinalysis, what about CBC? How detailed should we get with a blood panel. BLOOD WORK So typically, for the blood panel, we're going to recommend at least the core core workup. And that's going to be a CBC which is going to look at all the main cells, red blood cells, and white blood cells and platelets, and a lot of different parameters in there. We also want to see a chemistry that's going to look at the at least the basic organ function for kidney enzymes, liver and pancreas stuff. And so it's really going to get a full picture of how everything works together. And so those are the things that we add in honestly, and this is probably one of the tests to get sort of overlooked the most. But urinalysis to me is still one of the key components there because there’s so many things that will show up in the urine And that's actually pretty easy to test for it's relatively easy to collect the sample. And really that allows us to tell a lot about diabetes and kidney function, liver function, a lot of different things too. especially great for male cats and certainly for for other other pets as well. And is it better for us to collect that before we come into the practice or have you guys get a fresh sample? URINALYSIS AND STOOL SAMPLES Depends a little bit if you're talking about urine explicitly, then sense a little bit on what the what we're looking for. This is something that we suspect there like a UTI, it's always better for us to collect those samples in the hospital, which have cleaner methods of collecting them. If we're just looking for kind of a routine monitoring, and that's something that can be collected at home, pretty easily collected at home and stored in an airtight container, in the refrigerator, put in the bag and put it in the fridge. many times that’s the less stressful way to do it, not nearly as clean. So if we're going to do this, we're looking for bacteria. That's not the ideal situation. But for routine monitoring that works very nicely. And would the same go for a stool sample airtight in the frigerator. For how long? How long would it be good for? Correct? Yeah, so the stool samples are a little bit less finicky about being refrigerated. And I always worried a little bit about things in store stool samples in the fridge where we make meals. That's always a hot topic. Interestingly, so long as they're not excessively hot, like I live in Phoenix, like It's brutally hot here. So we could keep them in an inside area with temperature control. And those samples are, usually good for a day or two, before they get to the clinic, or before they get to the lab. With some of the newer tests, we can actually still test them up to about a week out. And there's some great, there's some great new test techniques that we're using to give us really, really detailed results on samples that may not be as as fresh as we normally would like. Okay, that's good to know. Before we take a sponsor break, would you both tell us the difference between what should not only a professional vet check look like? And how often, but what can we be doing at home? To monitor our dogs? MONITORING OUR DOGS AT HOME That's a great question. I think there's two components to that sort of stuff that we do the Veterinary Clinic and I'm under ideal circumstances, you'd see your veterinarian at least once a year, you'd see them you’d get a hands on exam, a physical exam, we actually get the hands on your pet. And that's so important, because we're gonna be able to look for things that are really something, you may not notice at home. We look for lymph node changes and abdominal pain and masses. And other things that may not be apparent to those of us who are just loving our pets at home. And so there's there's absolutely no substitute for that piece. That's really, really important. The things that we can do at home, there's a lot you can do, you can monitor for things like appetite changes, and frequency of urination, and thirst changes, those are really important things. You can also be checking. Sometimes it's difficult. We know in this day and age, it's very difficult to get in and see a veterinarian. there's simply not enough of us, not enough clinics, there's not enough appointments available. So the things that you can be doing in the meantime, you can actually run these tests at home, you can run a stool sample, a urine test, and in many cases a blood test at home. Not that you have to collect. There's some ways to do that. But you can do these tests at home. And they're a wonderful supplement for the six months between between your annual exams, you do it at six months, and now you've got a good checkin point, that you can get at least your veterinarian some data that they can work with. So it's not the same as a hands on visit. But they are getting some data that they can look at. So now instead of being a year between visits, only six months between having some contact with your vet. I love it. Well, I think to add to that, is there's certainly things you could do. For monitoring weight, you could get a pet scale, or you could just weigh yourself as well and and your pet, subtract the weight. Just to kind of monitor that. You could also making sure endurance. So if you're noticing that your pet, you know, we all want to play with our pet in the yard. So we're starting to see a little bit of the endurance going down. That's another thing to kind of watch for. So just being constantly. The helicopter parent, I would say is a good thing for pets because they can't tell us what's going on, unfortunately, and you are you as a pet parent have the best, best thing to do for them because you have your eyes. You see them every day, you're gonna see what they're doing. And if there's anything abnormal, there's something most likely going on. So it's always good to check. Sure. Well, this brings up a good point in my mind, especially since COVID. You know, we relied on telehealth instead of in practice visits. And I know that telehealth is still going strong, in your opinion, isn't the best case scenario having a veterinarian with real eyes on, live on your dog versus trying to correspond via an online chat? TELEHEALTH VISITS Yeah, I think that's I think the answer to that, for me at least and certainly Dr. Joe might have a different feeling but I think for me the answer to that is it's not just a single solution. And so having veterinary clinics, we know that we're you know, we're under serving the population of pets up to 30% of veterinarians that we actually need, in many cases, and so getting appointments and getting in and getting the sort of hands on is not always or at least not as quickly as we need. And so there are many times where the telehealth component becomes a break. And that becomes a bridge of handling the things that that may not be necessarily urgent, or they just have simple questions that would otherwise take up an urgent appointment if they go to the vet’s. And so there really is a multiple sort of approach component here until at the veterinarian and there's no substitute for hands on an experienced doctor putting their hands on a pet and getting a full picture. There's no substitute. But in the meantime, when they can't make that happen, sometimes the vet can actually reduce the burden on the emergency room by simply having a telehealth doctor give an opinion. So I think that that's an important component to it. And certainly, we're very focused on the diagnostic space, we're having alternative ways of doing diagnostics that allow telehealth and the diagnostics to coordinate with the in person vet. now you have this perfect triad. We have a lot of people looking at your pet, as a profession with a lot of people looking at your pet, different opinions and different, you know, everybody looking at the same data point saying, hey, how do we keep them happy and healthy? That's our goal. So there's certainly areas where telehealth can be doesn't doesn't fit. But there's I think that's why all three need to work in concert. Great point. I would certainly second that. Okay, perfect. Well, gentlemen, I am going to put you on hold for just a moment so that we can take a quick sponsor break and we will be right back. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Hello, everybody. We are back with Dr. Rory and Dr. Joe having an amazing discussion. And why we need a baseline of information of our dog's health and what that means throughout their life. So now we're going to talk about the role of lab testing. And gentlemen, we talked about in the beginning, the importance of a fecal, a urinalysis, and blood work. So why don't you tell us about how lab testing has been done in the past and what you are doing to improve those diagnostics? LAB TESTING Great. Well, yeah, a little short history on some labs that are in medicine. There's a handful of veterinary labs that historically served all the veterinary hospitals in the US. And they, you know, they provide service and veterinarians can collect samples and send to the lab, and then the veterinarian receives a sample back results back and then they can review them, make some adjustments and interpretation, and then discuss with the pet parent about what they do with that. And that method has worked very, very well, for a long time, there wasn't as much information. Luckily, there wasn't as much information about why to test and when to test and what to test. And so that worked very well, because the veterinarian was a wonderful source of information for that and, and, and access to the lab tests. As we move into sort of kind of a 21st century approach, we look at all everything that's happening on the human side with kind of the quantified self and all that data, sort of the data that we're collecting on humans and ancestry stuff and the genetic testing and human access to lab work. We're finding that pet parents are really wanting to be able to check their, to monitor their their pet's health with more frequent testing than they may see at a vet’s. And so what we find is that, you know, we're recommending every three, six or potentially 12 months for lab testing as veterinarian, but we may not have appointments as frequently as our pet parents need. So what what we see in this is what we found is kind of the future of veterinary medicine is really this access to diagnostic care that is pet parent driven, so it's driven by the pet parent to want to do the best they can for their pets, they want to be able to participate in care. And that's such an important part. Nobody wants to be necessarily just told what to do, they want to participate. And that's where medicine is going. And so you know, having that access to care where you can just say, I want to get this testing done on my pet, between visits with the veterinarian. And I think that that's really where we're headed. And that's what you guys are doing with Affordable Pet Labs. Right? How did that come to be? AFFORDABLE PET LABS So we started affordable pet labs in 2019, my team really with the idea that, that access to care is becoming more and more difficult and that access is costly. It's appointment times, and it's sort of availability. And physical access, sometimes people aren't able to get in, you know, maybe they have a stressed cat that they can't put in the box and don't want to drag to the vet every six months for lab work, or three months, if they're on thyroid meds God forbid, you know, they've got a 90 pound dog and they physically can't lift them in the car. that becomes an access to care problem. And so, you know, we tried to tackle these three things, the cost, availability and access, you know, in physical, physical proximity, by being able to bring some of that testing to the home. So really, what we're doing is we said look can we offer the same quality. So we're using the same reference lab quality that we use in the veterinary clinics, can we offer that same quality? But do it in the home? Can we bring experienced technicians to the home in a low stress environment? At a price that's affordable? So people can do it twice a year, once every year or every two years? Because it gets so expensive sometime? You know, can we do that in the home, low stress, lower costs, and same quality. And what we found is that we can we're able to offer that we're in 11 cities currently doing blood work, where we're able to do a whole host of bloodwork, almost everything we can do that you can do in the clinic, we can do in the home, we always send a pair of technicians don't expect anybody to draw their own pet’s blood. That's not That's not fair. Yeah, exactly. That would be stressful. And we don't even expect you to hold your pet like we send two technicians always want to make sure that they've got that they're, you know, they're able to have a good experience. And then you know, and then we expanded that said, Look, you know, we can we also know that we can do urine and fecal testing, stool testing for worms, we can do that really easily through the mail nationwide. So we have these entire kits that have everything you need to collect a urine sample and a stool sample you use or, and then you send it back to us and you get the results in a couple of days. then we share that with your vet. And we share all those results with the veterinarian so that they have the results, you have the results as the pet parent. And now there can be a discussion around here's what we do next. Here's what this means. Well, I wanted to reiterate, one thing that we are really trying to focus on is sharing the results with the pet parent as well. I do feel like sometimes in the clinic, world, we're so worried about the next pet that maybe getting sick, you don't share enough of that information out there. So one thing that as Affordable Pet Labs, we're trying hard to do is change the industry where we can actually have it where pet parents get to participate in the health of their pet. So they get the information with them so they could review it and have questions. We want those questions to be asked in those exams so that you as a pet parent get to understand what's going on as well. Yeah, and I think that's really, we're at the stage now in with technology and everything that you have Dr. Google and which is helpful for a little bit. But what we really want is, have that connection with your veterinarian with these results. Ask those questions because your veterinarian can relay more personalized information about your pet to you. So Dr. Google is great for a quick Hey, what does this mean? But your veterinarian will be able to give that? Well, what we're seeing in the past here are the values and this is what we see. And this is why we are concerned or we're not concerned. So that's the stuff that's really what I'm excited about? Right. Well, and to your point in the beginning, so crucial to have the baseline for your own dog to see what is normal and abnormal for them. Well, since you guys are doing blood draws I know when we first met, I brought this up, are you able to do titer testing as well? TITER TESTING So if you look at sort of a whole host of all lab testing that’s available, there's probably only about half a dozen things that we can't or won't do. And those are things that we firmly believe should be done in the veterinary clinic. Outside of that, titer testing for vaccines and for infectious diseases. Probably makes up, I would say I haven’t taken a look at the numbers recently, but I would say probably makes up 25 or 30% of our of our work right now. Because it's such an important component of monitoring. And why not go through you because I know at least what titers, everybody has to send those out. There isn’t a practice that just can do that in house. Couldn't agree more. The one thing that we're titer testing for, we just don't do the export titer testing, that's something that you would need to go in through your veterinarian so that they can perform the physical exam so that they can create the health paper that would be required for travel. But if it's just for Hey, what's my dog's rabies values? Or parvo. Didn't you guys tell me that you also work with rescues on the blood panels? WORKING WITH RESCUES We do. And I was hoping we would definitely talk about that. So what we have right now is and for the future is our heartstrings are going towards those rescues. And we know a lot of pets are actually not getting homes, because as a potential pet parent, we might just not know how the health is in the pet so or so to help get more get pets more homes is that we are working on with with rescues to provide a discount service, where rescues will get a 20% discount off of all of our tests, there is a quick little form you have to fill out this to make sure that you are a rescue. But we it's the same process where they just go onto our website, apply. And then once they get that just unique discount code, all the rescue for the life of that rescue will get a discount whenever they purchase through us. And we are also working with a different couple groups on trying to get more involved with the shelters as well so so that we can help them as well save money so that they could put more of that money towards the health and the care of those animals. But then also, hopefully share those records with the pet owner or pet parent when they actually adopt, that animal so they already have a little package together. And there's the baseline that we talked about. But now for a pet that you may not have known previously. What a great program. That's awesome. Such an important part of our commitment to the community to make sure that we're actually we're actually helping community not just not just providing service to pet parents, but also to future pet parents. Right. Well, before we sign off today, gentlemen, we all love stories, because we can relate to those. are there any stories that come to your minds as far as somebody that did do the at home testing at Affordable Pet Labs? And what was the outcome? The before the after? Yeah, I'll go. So interestingly, this is kind of specific for Phoenix, but there's a disease called Valley fever. And really what we have found is a couple examples that came up to my mind and just right now is we've had a couple rescue groups, people reaching out to rescue groups, saying, Hey, I don't know what's going on with my pet. And we've had those rescue groups referring, hey, just get your pet tested for valley fever. It sounds like this. Through Affordable Pet Labs. Well, we had one individual that I can remember really, and they were concerned about this other dog and of course, we'd be very concerned if it started showing signs of sickness and everything. Well, our what we did is we went out and had our tech, go and do the collection. And one of the things that was interesting is that we noticed with this value that like hey, this was our CBC chem, let's add something to that, because we know that your pet is not feeling well. Some of the values on the CBC counts look routine. But there's some elevation on some others. But what we could do is let's add a valley fever test to this. And we added it, we got the results in two days, and the pet was positive for valley fever. And pretty much from there, their pet parent was super excited because they had an answer. And then they were able to go to their veterinarian where this is that connection that we really want with, that we love to have with veterinarians is that we share those records with them, they were able to get the treatment going. And the animal’s doing much better. Now, because we found that there was that additional thing that needed to be added to that test. We're just reviewing those results. So and that's knowing that there's something wrong, but then getting that testing done is so important. It's going to help those tests in the long run. Great example. Wow. Yay. I like happy endings. We do too. Yes, of course, you obviously both of you are so passionate. And we are so grateful for you, Dr. Joe and Dr. Rory, where can everyone find out more information about you and Affordable Pet Labs? Yeah, that's a real easy search. Google search is AffordablePetLabs.com. We are in multiple states. We also have the collection kits that you can order online. And really just if you have a rescue, or anyone that is interested in getting the discount program, let us know. they are on this website, there's a form that you could just contact us and we could chat with you. Usually, it's some of the times it's Rory and I on the chat, kind of talking with pet parents to find out what's going on. But then we do have the rescue application there. So website, Facebook, social media, all those places. We're constantly monitoring and trying to help people out. So just look up Affordable Pet Labs. Social Media URLs or Tags          Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/affordablepetlabsandservices/          Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/affordablepetlabs          LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/affordable-pet-labs/?viewAsMember=true Wonderful. And I'll put all of these links in the show notes for everybody. Before we end this very informative interview. Do either of you have anything you'd like to leave us with? No, I think I really appreciate the opportunity to chat about the importance of diagnostics and routine monitoring. So we can start treatment as early as possible. If we do find something hopefully we don't. But certainly if we do, it's nice to be able to start treatment early. So I'm I'm excited to be able to continue the discussion around around how we keep them healthy. And how do we want to monitor so this is really exciting. Start the discussion. That's what we do. Well, thank you both so much. We really appreciate it. And everybody check out AffordablePetLabs.com Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code wol10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hi everyone! This is Krista with Episode #186 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Did you know that canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome, or CCDS, is very common, and it affects about 28% of 11 - 12 year old dogs, and 68% of 15 - 16 year old dogs? So it's a good idea to be aware with your senior pup. And the most common signs and symptoms of CCDS to watch out for are disorientation, abnormal interactions, changes with their sleep or wake cycle, house soiling, increased or decreased activity, and learning difficulties or memory loss. But if your dog has CCDS, don't panic, and know that dogs that have it tend to live just as long as dogs that experience healthy aging. But you can make things easier for them by keeping stress to a minimum and maintain a regular routine for meals walks and bedtime and wake time. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Christy Boswell is an experienced operations leader turned entrepreneur ushering the nation's first wellness centered, membership-based dog grooming service into the Denver metropolitan area. Hi there dog lovers! Welcome to yet another fantastic Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And today I am chatting with my guest, Christy Boswell. And she is going to be chatting with us about paws for prevention, the power of wellness based dog grooming. So Christy, thank you so much for being here with us today. Yeah, of course, thank you so much for having me, This is going to be great. Well, I'm going to ask you to please introduce yourself and give us a little more about your background and why you are so obsessed with wellness-based dog grooming. Yeah, absolutely. So my background is actually a little bit unusual for considering what I what I am doing now. Just that I've been in the corporate world for about 20 years doing management consulting and decided I really wanted to branch out into kind of an entrepreneurial fashion and in opening my own business. And so decided to do the franchise route. And in so doing came across the concept of wellness-based dog grooming, and so signed on to become a franchisee with a company called the Scenthound. And it's a very interesting concept. It's a new concept for the for the grooming world, in that we're really very much focused on educating pet parents on the importance of grooming, and how that can impact their dog's long term health. So I signed on with them in 2020, and have opened two stores in the Denver area. And so just in the experience, you know, that I've been doing this in the last couple of years, I've learned so much. But it's really, I think the most gratifying thing is seeing or seeing the concept in action and, and how we can help how we can actually play a role in helping pet parents, you know, understand how they can take care of their dogs and extend their dog's lives just by doing simple grooming things, or, you know, just pointing things out to them that maybe they wouldn't have noticed, you know, just because we do have hands on the dog a lot more often. So, you know, that's one of the biggest, you know, advantages to what I'm doing now. But just very, you know, really gotten into the wellness, wellness dog industry in the last couple of years. Trying to understand more about nutrition, and that sort of thing. And so, it's a really great approach to grooming. And I love it. I love the education piece and you're right our dog's wellness depends on so many different aspects. And maybe a lot of us don't think about grooming as part of a wellness plan ,if you will. So Christy, I know that when we first met, you talked about that you believe that regular maintenance is absolutely critical to the comfort and well- being of our dogs. So what do you consider basic hygiene or routine grooming? What does that look like? What Does Routine Grooming Look Like? Right? So, you know, and this can depend on the dog, of course. But what we we consider really kind of a once a month, check in with a groomer, whether you know that, that's where your dog is going to get their their bath, have somebody have the hands on the dog, doing a good once over. So we're talking to the pet parent about things that they're coming across, whether that's Oh, you know, I'm noticing some redness in their ears. It's easy as a pet parent to really kind of overlook those things with your, you know, with your dog living with you every day. And so maybe you're not noticing that the dog's ear is getting quite a bit more red. But that's something you know that your groomer, seeing them on a regular basis, you know, that good four to four to six week schedule, can really help pet parents kind of key in on early detection, and get them to the appropriate resources. That's great. And I have to assume that we're talking about even us pet parents that do our own grooming, like I do, all of these things that you're going to be talking about today apply for whoever has their hands on the dog, correct? What If We Groom Our Own Dog? Absolutely. And we try to break break it down into, you know, kind of five core areas, the dog's skin, their coat, their ears, their nails, their teeth, right. So, you know, skin is very important, you gotta look out for things like like parasites , tick and flea prevention, things like that. So making sure that your your dog doesn't have any infestations. Any allergies, you know, if you notice redness, in the paw pads, you know, maybe there's a grass allergy or something like that. So things to look at, be on the lookout for for skin. Coat, really is very dependent on the dog, you know it dogs have so many different types of coats, you’ve got your double coated breeds, you've got your poodles and your doodles with the hair. And so there's there's a lot of different things to look out for there. Depending on what kind of dog you have, whether that’s matting, you know, severe matting around the ears, or armpits. Your double coated dogs, whether or not they're, they're getting too much of a build up, and that coat might be getting impacted, you know, you've got to do the regular brushing to really kind of stimulate the, the regrowth of the hair too, and get that excess coat out of there. Ears, so important, you know, just taking a look making sure you don't have an extra buildup of that gunk in there. You know, smelling, you know, you can tell a difference in the smell of their ears if they're starting to get some kind of an infection, or looking out for that redness. Nails are so so, so important. And a lot of folks really struggle with, you know, keeping control on the length of their dog's nails. It's very difficult, right. So, you know, we have a lot of lot of pet parents, they come in and they just cannot get their own dog's nails done that, you know, we take them in the back and get it done in like five minutes. And I have the same issue with my own dogs. They won't let me do it. But I can take him to the shop and get it done with with no trouble. So what do you guys do since you know, I grow my own dog. I've got a six month old puppy Dutton. And I've always used the Dremel tool on the nails with past dogs. And he of course wanted nothing to do with it. So then I had to buy the sling so that he's you know, hanging there and even then he stressed out. So, what do you guys do to make it so quick and “easy”? Nail Grooming Well, you know, it really does depend on the dog, especially for puppies and people that come that bring their dog in early stages. We recommend for them to do a lot of repeated exposure to that. We prefer the Dremel. You know, I think it's a better tool for the nails, you can get a little closer to the quick but even if you have an old electric toothbrush at home, you know without introducing him to the to the sling, or anything else associated with the nails, but just run that electric toothbrush up and down his legs and give them treats while you're doing it. Just to kind of get used to that it's that vibration. Yeah, yeah that that Usually what kind of triggers that stress response in them. and so we recommend doing things like that. Sometimes we'll have dogs come in, you know, several times and just come into the lobby, maybe take him back to the grooming room and, you know, introduce him to some of the staff and do pats, and then send them home without even doing any services. Just if it's a really, you know, you we know that dog is going to be having a lot of anxiety around grooming, we don't want to make that first experience, extremely uncomfortable, because that will be very difficult to break down the road. Right. But for the most part, I would say that the biggest, you know, the easiest, easiest way we can get things get the nails done is through distraction methods. Usually, you know, that usually requires a couple of people, you know, get one person up at the top, maybe doing some head pats and, and treats, nose scratches, that sort of thing. But distraction really is key, and then that positive reinforcement, you know, just at home when we're not doing anything to the nails, but there's similar sensations that are happening and they’re being positively reinforced. Okay, so that's how we can set up either our puppies or if we get a rescue, and not sure if the dog has been used to grooming. It's baby steps, obviously. And I love that approach. Christy, we have just a little bit of time before we take our first commercial break. So you mentioned Dental, as far as a health preventative with routine care. Do you guys do anything at the groomers regarding dental or is this stuff of course that we should be doing at home? Dental and Grooming Both. In fact, really, teeth is such a, that's such a huge long term health concern for dogs and by the time, most dogs are age three, they have some form of periodontal disease, right. So regular teeth brushing is just critical, right? And that's another one of those things that you can start early with your puppies introducing them the toothbrush, I like to recommend for the at home brushing to get an enzymatic toothpaste. So even if your dog is difficult and doesn't want to let you get that toothbrush in there to do a lot of really good back and forth scrubbing. If you have enzymatic toothpaste and you're able to get a couple of good swipes of that toothpaste in their mouth, on their teeth. That's gonna do some good, you know, and that's gonna, that's going to help you and then of course I did regular or the teeth brushing is part of our regular hygiene process at the groomers but, you know, trying to do whatever we can to prevent the periodontal disease, to prevent having to do those regular anesthesia cleanings. You know, that's scary, that's risky for your dog to be put under anesthesia and very expensive. So, just really important to do that regular tooth brushing, Okay, and our listeners know that I am a huge fan of TEEF, which is an all natural water additive, and it actually sets up the oral microbiome. So the dog does not get excess plaque and tartar buildup so I've used TEEF on my previous dog Winston and now that Dutton has all his adult teeth, he is on TEEF as well and I just love it. It's an amazing product. Yes, the water additives are very helpful as well. Well Christy, we are going to take a quick commercial break and we're gonna continue our chat everybody sit tight. SPONSOR AD Thanks to our sponsor, CBD Dog Health. It is one of the very few CBD companies that I feel confident in recommending. And here's just a few reasons why. They're full spectrum, hemp derived CBD products, are extracted from high quality hemp grown here in the US with no use of herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. They're legal in all 50 states with less than point 3% THC, non GMO, full of active cannabinoids, such as CBD, CBG, CBN, and CBDa. Their processing uses supercritical co2 extraction. They're manufactured with 100% food grade ingredients, tested by a third party laboratory and available for home delivery to all 50 states. Check out the quality CBD Dog Health products and help your dog find relief at CBDdoghealth.com. And be sure to use the code WOL for 20% off. Trust in a company that is passionate about helping your pet live their very best life. And we are back speaking with Christy about wellness-based dog grooming. And this is so important. So Christy, what? Well, let me ask this first, do all dogs require grooming? Do All Dogs Need Grooming? Absolutely. And this is kind of a passion of mine too. I feel like the traditional grooming industry focuses a lot on dogs that need haircuts, right. But all dogs, whether they're short haired, double coated, or long haired and need regular haircuts, they all need regular hygiene care. You know, I mentioned early, earlier, even though short, short haired dogs, they need that regular brushing of their coats. You know you get those rubber zoom groom brushes, and you just hit em with those once a day, could just keep the oil glands and their skin stimulated and keep the excess hair from building up. But you know, and then getting back to the nails, the teeth, the ears, even though their coat may not be long, they still need regular maintenance of those core core areas in order, you know, to prevent long term healthcare issues. And I've read that most dogs need to be bathed at least every three months. Do you agree with that? Or is there a frequency that is actually too much on their coat and skin? Bathing Frequency I mean, there are definitely, you know, there may be dogs that have particular skin conditions or allergies, that would prevent them from getting bathed on a regular basis. I feel that monthly is a is a very good cadence for most dogs. You get your hands as the groomer has a hands on their dog the dog at least once a month. And so they're able to look at those five core areas and make sure that there's nothing standing out to them that the pet parent needs to know about. And it just keeps them clean, right? It keeps them you know, looking for ticks and fleas and things like that. So um, no, I don't I don't really feel like once a month is too much. Okay. Well, since we're talking about bathing, we know that a lot and I mean, a lot of the products on the market for shampoos, they have harsh chemicals in them. And a lot of times it's the smell that appeals to us, you know, oh, my dog smells so wonderful, like lavender or lemons or whatever it is after my dog is groomed. How do we know that our groomer is looking out for our dogs and not using products with toxic chemicals? Grooming Products That are Toxic Yeah, I mean, definitely ask them. You want to know what what products are being used on your dog, you want to look for groomers that are that are using shampoo solutions that don't have sulfates, parabens or colorants you know that are 100%, biodegradable degradable that are healthy for your dog's skin. So any groomer should be very happy to share with you what, what kinds of products they're using, and and what what are the ingredients in them. And from your experience, if you know that a dog is on a raw or fresh diet, do you notice that their coat looks better that their skin is healthier that they don't smell like a dog on kibble if you know what I mean? Diet and Grooming Yes, yes, you definitely notice a difference in the skin, skin and coat condition less dandruffy, typically not a lot of not a lot of like allergic conditions. So you know the it you can definitely tell a difference. And if I were to take my dog to a groomer, do most of them require vaccinations or not? Vaccinations and Grooming Yeah, so it really is dependent on state. It you know, the pet industry is not very well regulated. So, for example, Colorado here we are required determined proof of rabies vaccination for grooming. Okay. And that's it. So, yeah, it really depends on your state or the regulatory agency, in your state over that particular industry. And what most of them take titers in lieu of revaccination. Titers? I do do as long as we have a vet that signs off on that. We do take titer exception, right. I don't I can't speak for you know, other states. Right. Well, I know again, when we originally met, which was months and months and months ago, you also wanted to touch on the intersection of grooming, and the veterinarian industries, do you want to unpack that a little more? Grooming and Veterinary Industry Absolutely. And, you know, is also kind of getting back to those, those five core areas I talked about skin, coat ears, nails, and teeth. Those are the, you know, the core areas that a lot of health conditions can develop out of. And so, you know, our mission is to really kind of bridge the gap between the grooming industry and the veterinary industry, you know, oftentimes, your dog only sees that once a year, whereas they may see a groomer many more times a year, just so the groomer is gonna have their hands on your dog a lot more often, you know, running a running their hands along their body. And so they’re able to detect lumps and bumps that might not have been there a month or two beforehand, and that maybe the pet parent didn't notice. And so, you know, this has happened to us a few months ago, we had a dog and for grooming, and she had a growth near her her groin area. Our groomer noticed it right away, pointed it out to the pet parent took her to the vet and it needed to be removed before that it was going to start developing a lot of complications for this dog, you know, so things, things like that, that your groomer can do to really point the pet parents in the right direction, whether that's going, you know, doing primary care with your, your vet, with their vet, or you know, any sort of like urgent care that they might need, but really kind of trying to work more in tandem with the with the veterinary industry in approaching grooming from a much more wellness standpoint, rather than an aesthetic or a creative standpoint, right? Talking to pet parents more about like, hey, matting is painful, and it can create bruising, you know, and it can really keep create a lot of skin problems for your dog. Rather than taking the approach, you know that the pet parent wants to keep their dog's coat really long, they don't really care about the matting, but talking to them about like the health impact that that has, rather than the aesthetic impact. And I love that approach. Well, what do you do with dogs that already have some behavioral issues? You know, a lot of dogs either going to the vet or the groomer, they're already anxiety ridden? Absolutely. What do you guys do to welcome a dog that that has some issues like that? Grooming and Anxious Dogs Yeah, and that's, you know, another benefit of seeing your groomer on a monthly basis is it gets that dog much more familiar with the environment with the groomer, or with the process, they need that regular exposure to become comfortable with the process, rather than if they don't come in and get groomed once a year. Yeah, it's gonna be traumatic for them and they're gonna hate it. So that's really another reason that we encourage those regular monthly visits, we've had some several success stories where we've had a dog, the dogs that have come in, and we're only able to do maybe a quick bath, you know, at first, they're uncomfortable with getting nails done, you know, don't want anybody touching them or their ears or something. And so we take that kind of slow, steady approach with with dogs like that, you know, maybe recommend that the pet parent try try out some CBD products at home first to see how their dog reacts to them. And if it's if it's positive, and we try to incorporate that into the grooming experience and giving, incorporating CBD before they come in to see us. And so, you know, really just that repeated exposure, and just slow and steady wins the race. Yeah, I love that you mentioned CBD because, you know, we know that there's natural things that are go to to help calm our dogs, you know, CBD, there's calming medicinal mushrooms. There's Rescue Remedy. You know, there's other things that we can go to without medication, which is great to help the experience. Yeah, that's always a last resort. Well, Christy, as we are coming to a close, you mentioned Scenthound is the company and you've got two franchises here in Colorado. Can you talk just a little bit about the business model? You know, in case of if anybody's interested in looking into this franchise for themselves, you know, wherever they're located. What is the business model? I think you mentioned it's membership based. More About Scenthound Correct? Yeah. So we are membership based and that's, you know, that's kind of our way of keeping people accountable to bringing their dogs in on a regular basis, we incorporate our report card process into our services. So you know, every time that you come in, you get a report through our app, that rates your dog’s skin coat, ears, nails teeth. And it also gives you any information that you know, maybe we see some new lumps or bumps, things like that. So incorporate that into the process, you have that information, historical information to look at. For every visit that your dog has with us, we track their weight, membership based, like I said, we have a few different membership options. But the membership covers the cost of the services. So you know, you have the option to to come in once a month, get the bath, their dog gets the bass, ears cleaned, nails done, teeth cleaned, and then from there, you have services that you may need to add on. Well, depending on what your dog needs, whether that's a haircut, deshedding treatments or what have you. And then our memberships are just month to month, it's not a long term contract. And then the other thing to note that is different about us is that we don't do any breed specific or kind of creative grooming, we really just offer puppy cuts, you know, so the pet parent chooses the length, we do the same length all over the body, round face, flag tail. And then you know, options for double coated dogs like Goldens and Australian shepherds, we would just clean up the lines, that sort of thing. And then I should note also, Scenthound is a national brand. There are over 50 stores in operation right now across the country. And I believe there are over 100 and development. That is exciting. And is there any continuing education like you know, if this is membership based? Do you send out health information as part of their membership? Yeah, absolutely, we have. So the Scenthound site has a blog feature that talks about those core areas can coat yours nails, teeth, and you know, the health and wellness around those areas. We also send those out in newsletters. And then we also have a membership level two membership levels that provide access to a virtual vet. And that's handy. That's just straight through our app that that I found to be very handy. If you need to, like triage something you're not sure if you should go to the emergency vet or not. It's after hours, maybe you should just have some general some general health questions, but maybe not enough to merit an actual visit to the vet. So. So that's another handy feature. I just love this what you guys are doing. That's fantastic. Christy, as we're wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today? Yeah, just I think that it's just, it's the education, right. And a lot of people don't realize that all dogs need regular, basic hygiene. And so when people talk about groomers, they really kind of think about, you know, just going in for a haircut and what have you, but really just kind of increasing awareness for the general population that it's so important to maintain the dog's basic hygiene because that can really help prolong their life. And just like nutrition, proper nutrition, can help prolong the dog's life. So can regular teeth brushing, you know, maintenance of the ears, maintenance of the nails. So it's just remembering those, you know, those things that you can do to help keep your pup around even longer? That's right, all great advice. And Christy, where can everybody go to find out more information about you and Scenthound? Yeah, if you just go to https://www.scenthound.com/ you can find out a little bit more about what we do have a nice little informational video on the site about how our services work. And then they can find all the different locations across the country. Great. And then I will put that as well as all of your specific social media information in the show notes of this episode. So Christy, thank you, thank you for being here and sharing all of this great information. And thanks to the listeners for wanting to learn more. Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/scenthound/?hl=en          Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ScenthoundSmokyHill                                                  https://www.facebook.com/ScenthoundCentennialWest/                     LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/christy-boswell-497a1a7/ Of course. Thank you, Krista. Thanks again to our friends at CBD Dog Health for sponsoring this episode. Check out all of their amazing products like CBD enriched hemp oils for separation anxiety or traveling needs, extra strength cannabinoid formulations specifically made for more serious conditions, like PTSD or pain from cancer. Salves to treat dry skin for dogs and other ailments, like hotspots and allergies, and all natural pet treats. All of the CBD Dog Health products are made to effectively treat your pet holistically and naturally. Help your dog thrive by using the code W OL for 20% off at CBDdoghealth.com. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello! This is Krista with Episode #185 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and tried that I know, like, and trust. Also products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com And check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well. It's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. Many people think that with their dogs, tummy troubles, that itchy skin or infected ears are all a result of a food allergy. But true food allergies are really pretty rare, only affecting about 1- 3% of dogs. So most likely your dog's issues have developed over time and would be considered a result of a food intolerance. The main culprits of food allergies and intolerances are wheat, chicken, beef, and dairy, as well as additives and chemicals that are commonly found in highly processed dog food. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Sharon Vincuilla is an occupational therapist who did her doctoral residency in the Los Angeles community-based mental health system. She developed group and individual programs for adults living with serious mental illness to support nervous system regulation, executive function, and participation in daily activities. Sharon also has  over 15 years experience as a dog trainer and behavior consultant, specializing in rescue rehab, anxiety, and aggression. Sharon has come to recognize that beneath the struggles of both dogs with behavior problems and adults with mental illness lie trauma, sensory hypersensitivity, and nervous system dysregulation. So, she started Human Canine Collaborative to offer virtual coaching and classes to teach humans how to support themselves AND their dogs through trauma recovery, reactive behavior modification, and stressful circumstances by learning how to co-regulate with each other. Hi there dog lovers, how lucky are we to learn from today's guest, Sharon Vincuilla, and she is going to cover co-regulation; an intuitive approach to trauma recovery for both ends of the leash. So Sharon, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Krista. I'm really delighted to be here today, I can't wait to learn from you. So before we get started, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. And just give us a little more about your amazing background and why you started the Human Canine Collaborative. Sharon’s Background and Findings Yeah, thanks for that prompt. My name is Sharon and my pronouns are she/her. And I'm a Doctor of Occupational Therapy and a Canine Behavior Consultant. I began my career in dog training, working as a dog trainer at a kennel facility doing boarding and training and group classes and private sessions. And at the same time, I was volunteering with my own dogs, taking them to visit nursing homes and children's courts and schools. And it was through that volunteer work that I got introduced to occupational therapy. And I decided to go back to school because I wanted to do animal assisted therapy, full time. And while I was doing OT, I specialized my training in community based mental health, as many mental health providers do, I was searching for more understanding of myself, and also wanting to be able to better support people who are struggling with various mental health conditions, who also live with dogs. And I noticed it through that work that there were a lot of people who found a lot of support from their dogs. And there were a lot of people who were struggling to be able to live with dogs because of their symptoms. And I also noticed this parallel between the symptoms that my clients were experiencing, my human clients who had experienced trauma, and the dogs who I'd worked with who were behaving with reactivity and aggression and anxiety. And I noticed that same parallel in myself in my own struggles with mental health and anxiety. And I realized that the common denominator for all of us is nervous system regulation. When we can't regulate our nervous systems, we have a hard time doing the things that we need and want to do every day. Well, you're in the perfect spot with your background and doing this and I think every listener here today is going to learn something for themselves. You don't have to be suffering from some major trauma to get something out of this, right? That's absolutely right. Every human has a nervous system and all of us will benefit from learning about our nervous systems and understanding what our bodies are trying to tell us. Right. And I hate to say it, but our nervous systems never switch off. Well Sharon the cool thing is, I think we all know by now that there's tons of studies out there that have demonstrated the calming and distressing effect that our dogs do have on us. So I love that we're going to dig a little deeper on the relationship that we have with our dogs and how they can help us. So let's talk about trauma. How do you define trauma specifically, when it comes to talking about our trauma, as well as our dog's? Trauma Trauma, I look at trauma as any stressful situation that is beyond one's ability to cope. And so I really like that definition, because it highlights how subjective trauma is, right? So what's traumatic for me is not necessarily going to be traumatic for you. That makes total sense. And people love to hear stories and examples. So what are some examples of some different types of trauma that we experience? Trauma Example Well, I'll get I'll be real specific and tell you about my own experience. Sure. So my experiences that have been traumatic, have involved all kinds of things. I mean, I can remember being very young, and being on the school bus. And there were some boys behind me that were teasing me. And they were poking me. And I, and they were saying something like, Hey, little girl. And I was like, at a new school. So this was all like, everything was kind of overwhelming to me. And I was very sensitive, in my touch system. And in my sound system. So like hearing things and feeling things on my skin could feel very overwhelming. And so having having these kids behind me, saying things that sounded like taunting, and then poking me unexpectedly, that was a really traumatic situation. And I didn't have the skills to be able to cope with that. And so that has stayed with me, throughout my life. That's a great example. And I can just think, I mean, for both us and our dogs, major life events, like, you know, natural disasters, a move, a divorce, being attacked. You know, I think of all of these that could have a lasting effect on our lives. Traumatic Situations Yeah, yeah, there are so many situations that result from the environment, from weather, but also situations that arise in relationships with other people that can have a have an impact on us, because we because of the fear that's involved, and the threat to our lives, or our survival. But also, because of that, going back to that idea of like, we don't have the skills to cope, or when we don't have the skills to cope. That is when our nervous systems really can overreact and change permanently, in order to try to improve the coping ability. Should there be a next time? Well said, that makes it easy to understand. So let's go back to the title of this episode, you're going to talk about Co-regulation. What does that mean, in relation to our central nervous systems? What is Co-Regulation? So I'm gonna define self regulation first. Yep. So self regulation is shifting your nervous system from one state to another. And we have three states. So one state, and each state is kind of like a setting that the nervous system goes into where there are different combinations of organs that are turned on, so that we can do different things. So one setting is called immobilize. That's our rest and digest setting. And then we also have a mobilized setting, that's our exercise, play and fight or flight setting. And then we have a social connected setting. And that's where we have all of our listening abilities turned on and our ability to talk to others. And the part of our brain that is engaged with teaching and learning is also turned on in that setting. Okay, so that's self regulation. Yeah, exactly. So co-regulation is when you shift the nervous system from one state to another, with another. So with humans, human parents co regulate with their infants all the time, the baby cries and then you go and pick them up and swaddle them, or rock them or coo at them. And that helps them to calm their body and shift into a calmer state. And they can't do it. By themselves. They don't have the ability to. And we can also co regulate with any other living beings. So we can co regulate with dogs. Also, we can co regulate in terms of doing an activity with our dogs that supports our nervous system, and theirs in shifting to another state. That's the good stuff right there. Absolutely. Well, Sharon, I know that you have had a journey with your own dog Muggins. And I know you shared the story with me. I would love for you to talk about that again now with our listeners. Sharon’s Journey with Muggins Yeah, thanks for asking about that again. So I adopted Muggins. I also use they/them pronouns with logins, just to give myself some practicing with using those pronouns. So I adopted Muggins when they were three and a half months old, from the shelter. And they were having a hard time getting adopted because they were very stressed. And they really wanted to interact with people, but they also were just very impulsive at such a young age, and were biting everything. And so they were biting people who are coming to meet them and trying to adopt them. And so I, knowing that I had the skills to be able to help a dog like this, I decided that would take Muggins home. And at the time, I was recovering my own post traumatic stress after graduate school. And after moving across the country, in the middle of COVID, to support my sister in law who had suffered a brain injury. So, so I was in between jobs I hadn't, I had just started to rebuild my business. And I had all this time available. And so I adopted Muggins. And the first thing I noticed about Muggins was that Muggins was sort of like, had a lot of nervous system inflammation, I guess is the way I like to think about it. Like they would get really overwhelmed really quickly with being around a lot of activity. So if we went somewhere to like a park, where there's kids playing or other people walking their dogs or squirrels M uggins would be really overwhelmed, would do a lot of zoomies. So a lot of running around me in circles, not really having any conscious thought about it, would want to just grab everything that went near their mouth. So if I walked past them, they would grab my pant leg, I moved my hand close to their mouth, they would be grabbing my hand, if I had a toy, they would grab the toy. And then they would just not really have a lot of rhythm with their sleeping and waking cycle and their appetite cycle. So they would have a hard time falling asleep. And they would like sometimes they would not be hungry at all. And then other times they would be intensely hungry and irritable. And there didn't seem to be any sort of regular pattern like this wasn't happening at the same time of day, every day. And dogs thrive on that. Yes, yeah. We always hear about our we always know about dogs who come and get us when it's time to eat. Right, right before we even look at the clock. Just routine that you know, they feel comfortable when there's a routine. So poor Muggins didn't have one. Exactly. Yeah. And so that was what I tried to do first was to help Muggins have a routine specifically for eating and sleeping. Those are like the foundations of the nervous system and of survival, right. So I would really pay close attention to Muggins’ signals, like if they started to get sleepy, like if they were blinking their eyes more, or laying down a lot instead of playing, then I would direct them into our bedroom where it was dark and cool and less stimulation and then help them go to sleep. And then I would pay attention to their activities or like their behaviors that might demonstrate that they're hungry, like are they poking around in the kitchen, or are they trying to bite more than normal? And then I would make Make sure that they would get food as soon as I thought they were hungry. And also, along with that I started to teach Muggins behaviors that they can use to tell me when they're hungry or to tell me when they're tired, so that they would have more of an awareness of what they need and then be able to tell me in an appropriate way, instead of an inappropriate way, Right. Hey, Sharon, we are halfway through so I am going to take this opportunity to take a quick sponsor break and we'll be right back. Sounds great. Thanks to our sponsor, CBD Dog Health. It is one of the very few CBD companies that I feel confident in recommending. And here's just a few reasons why. They're full spectrum, hemp derived CBD products, are extracted from high quality hemp grown here in the US with no use of herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. They're legal in all 50 states with less than point 3% THC, non GMO, full of active cannabinoids, such as CBD, CBG, CBN, and CBDa. Their processing uses supercritical co2 extraction. They're manufactured with 100% food grade ingredients, tested by a third party laboratory and available for home delivery to all 50 states. Check out the quality CBD Dog Health products and help your dog find relief at CBDdoghealth.com. And be sure to use the code WOL for 20% off. Trust in a company that is passionate about helping your pet live their very best life. And we're back speaking with Sharon Vincuilla , and this is just so fascinating. We're talking about co-regulation, and how we can help ourselves and our dogs. So both ends of the leash. And Sharon, you were just telling us about your journey with Muggins. And how you kind of reshaped Muggins to be more of a normal dog. And didn't you tell me that the litter was abandoned at four weeks old? Muggins’ Trauma That's right, yeah. Muggins had to littermates. And they were born in Tennessee. And they were dropped off at a shelter down there at four weeks old. And then they were lucky enough to be put into foster care for a while. And then they were brought up to New York where I live. And that's where I found them. And that's a lot of trauma for a new puppy. Oh, yeah, I mean, new puppies, puppies need their canine parents, right, until they're seven or eight weeks old, maybe even longer. And they also need a lot of like we were talking about before consistency and routine. And so Muggins moved in, and their litter mates moved around quite a bit before the age of two months old. So how did you get Muggins to be a more stress free, calm, dependable dog? Working with Muggins Well, it was a combination really, of providing Muggins with behaviors like skills that they could use to communicate with me. providing them with a sensory diet. So as an OT, I have a lot of training on sensory processing and how the way our nervous systems detect and integrate sensory information contributes to behavior. And in OT, we use something called a sensory diet, which is like a prescribed combination of activities and experiences throughout a day, that provide an individual with the right amounts and types of sensory input to help their nervous system to be more rhythmic and balanced. And so for dogs, well for dogs and humans, engagement in movement and balance activities is really nourishing, and engagement in touch based activities, especially touch that provides that nourishing yummy deep pressure that we feel like when our dog lays on our lap or when we hug another human. And then dogs also need a lot of opportunity to smell. They need to engage in sniffing things so that they can get information about their environment. And when they're sniffing, they're also taking deep breaths. And breathing is a really great way to support the nervous system. So let's get into it. How does co regulation work? So what would it look like co-regulation between ourselves and our dogs? Co-Regulation with Our Dogs So co regulation is really it's helping the dog build skills, and it's helping the human build skills. So when I learned to co regulate with Muggins, it was partially supporting Muggins’ ability to communicate and regulate. But also, I had to work through my own trauma and learn my own skills to help my body to feel safer and calmer. And so when I work with a client, I help them to build awareness. So I teach them about the nonverbal cues of the nervous system, so that they can look objectively at what's happening inside themselves. Like noticing like, Oh, I'm kind of tense in my shoulders right now. And my heart, I feel my heart beating faster, and my palms are kind of sweaty, so I think I'm getting stressed, maybe I need to take a break and take a walk or do some breathing. And then also learning those nonverbal cues for dogs. So noticing that, oh, you know what, my dog is moving around a lot right now. And the sound of their bark sounds kind of high pitched, and they are chewing on something, they're not supposed to be chewing. So I think my dog is frustrated. And maybe they need me to take them outside to play or give them a to item or something like that. So by building awareness of what's going on with the body, we can have a better understanding of what is needed, and then we can take action to provide for those needs. That is incredible. Well, do you think, you know, some people like to get their dogs from a rescue others like to go to a reputable breeder? Do you find more trauma in puppies from either of those? Well, it really depends. If somebody is rescuing their dog from the shelter or a rescue, it's more likely that the dog has experienced stressful events, you know, like just being in the shelter is stressful because of the noise level in the shelter. Because they, the dogs don't have as much freedom to move around. Because they have to compete for attention, they don't just get the attention of one person. So those experiences can contribute to stress and, and you could see a result like I had with Muggins. Whereas dogs from reputable breeders are generally getting a lot more attention and socialization, there is less sound in their environment, because they're usually in a home. And they are able to get their needs met when they need things. And I have to think that in this day and age, it seems like everybody is so stressed, not just stressed, but 24/7. We are in the fight or flight mode. And of course, our dogs take on our stress. And you hear about more people having panic attacks. So how do we move through different trauma with our dogs? Do you mean like, what what do we do? Like, What specifically can we do to help ourselves? Like I think of PTSD, you know, people that have PTSD, or just any of us that are triggered by certain instances, that put us in that fight or flight mode and stress and panic. Advice on How Yeah, I'm thinking of, I'm going to tell you about a practical exercise. And I'm also going to give some advice. So I think there is still a very large stigma around mental health and pursuing mental health support in our society. And I struggled with that myself, it took me a long time to be able to feel good about going to a therapist and to go regularly. But I think because a lot of people feel like if I need to see a therapist, that means I'm broken, or I'm sick, or there's something wrong with me. And I now believe that if you're going to a therapist, it's because you're human. All Humans need and deserve support to be our best selves. And if you're struggling with something where something is triggering you to have an unexpected response, and it's getting in the way of your ability to do what you need and want to do, then you deserve support. And there's no shame in that. I think that I think that's the best thing that you can do for yourself. And we also deserve to have good support for caring for our dogs. So pursuing professional help from a trainer or a veterinary behaviorist or a coach is great so that you can really be sure that like develop confidence in what you're doing with your dog, because it can be really... There's a lot of insecurity, I think when we're not sure of what to do. And I think working with a professional can really support your confidence that you're doing the right thing. And you're on the right track. So yeah, so it's like a double support would be best support for your dog and support for you. Right. And you were going to share something that we can do ourselves right away. A Practical Exercise Absolutely. One of the best practices that I have started doing with Muggins is breathing. And so that means we sit down every day together. And I focus on some deep, slow breathing for myself. And then Muggins comes over and joins me and weighs down with me. And when they do that, I start rewarding them for taking a deep breath. So if I noticed their nostrils flare or their cheeks puff a little bit, those are signs that they're inhaling, and I'll just drop a tree in front of them. Or if I notice, they put their head down on my lap or on the floor, I'll give them a treat for that. Or if I hear them give a big sigh with a big exhale, I'll give him a treat for that. And so Muggins is getting feedback about what their body is doing. They're getting rewarded for relaxing and for breathing. And what I noticed is that two things, one, if I don't do this, or if I forget to do it, Muggins will come and ask me for this breathing practice, which helps me make sure I do it every day. And two, I noticed Muggins taking deep breaths on their own outside of this practice, whenever they need to relax. And that just makes me feel so good. That's cool. Wow. And Sharon, I know I mean, it's been months and months and months since we first met. But you said something to me that we have to remember that each ourselves and our dogs need our own space. Do you want to elaborate on that? We Need Space Yeah, as a sensitive being, I'm a hypersensitive person, I also identify as neurodivergent. And so when I'm around other people a lot, my sort of like social capacity gets maxed out really quickly. And even like being with Muggins is a Muggins has a social demand, right? Muggins demands attention from me, and I have to talk to them and make decisions and give them guidance. So there's a social demand there with hanging out with Muggins. And so I need a break, I need solitude as part of my like regular routine, so that I have the ability to recharge and rest my senses and rest of my nervous system. And, and that means I need a break from Muggins too sometimes, and Muggins needs a break from me also, you know, like sometimes Muggins just wants to go take a nap and I see them and they look so cute, all curled up and one go over there and just give them kisses. And then when I do that, they just glare at me and get off the couch and go lay down somewhere else. That's great. We have to remember that because, you know, if we don't take our own space at times, that's when you get a dog that is velcroed to your hip, and has separation anxiety. So there is a fine line. And I'm glad that you told us more about that. Yeah, so glad you asked. So before we wrap up today, Sharon, I know that you have tons of examples and stories where this co-regulation worked off the top of your head, you know, we know that it worked very well with you. And Muggins is there another client that you shared this co-regulation strategy with that change their life? A Great Example Mm hmm. Yeah, I just finished up last month with a client it was a couple and their dog, an 11 year old Shib Inu named Mandu. And they came to me because they were having a lot of trouble with feeding Mandu. and Mandu had a lot of noise sensitivity which had really become overwhelming I think it had begun with a smoke alarm and and then had generalized to any sound that sounded like a beeping sound and Mandu would just panic or start trembling, be really unresponsive and withdrawn. Wouldn’t eat. And so this couple really wanted their dog to be experiencing less anxiety and be more be able to be more present and relaxed and and they also were struggling with like not being able to go out of town because they were going through all of the jumping through all these hoops to try to feed Mandu. And they were just like, we can't ask somebody else to do this. So what are we going to do? So we did six sessions of coaching. And we also collaborated with their veterinarian. So what I wanted to do was I wanted them to explore medication for the noise sensitivity, and also to explore if there was any underlying pain. Because that can all like with noise sensitivity and difficulty eating, I'm always wondering about pain. And so Mandu did get a prescription. And then we also did co regulation, and we developed a sensory diet and improved Mandu’s communication skills and improve the owner's awareness of Mandu. And it was such a delight, our last session, we were just like talking about all of the things that were different. And they were really feeling like there was so much more ease with feeding Mandu, and he was eating better. He wasn't reacting to all of the beep beep sounds anymore. He was more playful. And they were they had planned a vacation to go out of town and they found somebody who was willing to stay with Mandu. That's that's a huge success story. I love it. Yeah, cool. Well, Sharon, I know that you have a special offer for our listeners. So would you like to share what that is all about? OFFER Yeah, absolutely. I am offering a discount code. It's WOL so Wag out loud. And when you use that code to purchase anything from my site, either coaching, a recorded class or workbook, you will get 20% off 20 Oh my gosh, listeners take advantage of that. That's amazing. Thank you, Sharon, for that. You're welcome. My pleasure. And in relation to that, where can everyone find out more information about you and the Human Canine Collaborative? You can go to my website, it's https://hc-collab.com. And you can also find me on Instagram, @holisticdogexpert, all one word. Wonderful. And I'm going to have all of these links on how to get in touch with Sharon, on the show notes. So everybody can go there for easy access. And Sharon, I just want to thank you for all of your work and making such a difference. This, you know, the brain is just so complex in both us and our dogs. So for you to offer treatment options for us to live a better, less stressful, calmer, intentional life. I really want to thank you for that. You're so welcome, Krista and thank you for describing it that way. I think especially that word intentional. I think that's really key when it comes to addressing behavior and mental health the way that I do. Thank you so much. Well everybody go check out Sharon's site. Again, look for that link in the show notes. And I don't doubt that all of us have learned something new today. Social Media: IG: @holisticdogexpert FB: https://www.facebook.com/HolisticDogExpert/ LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/humancaninecollaborative/ Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to be here. Thanks, Sharon. Thanks again to our friends at CBD Dog Health for sponsoring this episode. Check out all of their amazing products like CBD enriched hemp oils for separation anxiety or traveling needs, extra strength cannabinoid formulations specifically made for more serious conditions, like PTSD or pain from cancer. Salves to treat dry skin for dogs and other ailments, like hotspots and allergies, and all natural pet treats. All of the CBD Dog Health products are made to effectively treat your pet holistically and naturally. Help your dog thrive by using the code W OL for 20% off at CBDdoghealth.com. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #184 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Many of you know that last year, I started working with Dr. Judy Morgan and the Naturally Healthy Pets team. And to be honest, I can no longer do that job and run the Wag Out Loud business. So I've decided that my last Wag Out Loud episode will release at the end of the year. And it's been such a great learning experience for me, and I'm so proud of all the great content that I've shared over the last four and a half years. But if any of you are interested in taking over the pawdcast, please let me know. It would be great for someone else as passionate about canine health and wellness to carry on the legacy. And I have everything in place that I could easily teach you the ropes. When it comes to your dog's health, one of the biggest areas overlooked is the mouth. Did you know that dental disease is the number one health issue that dogs face with over 80% of them having it by the age of three? So not only can our pups suffer from swollen gums, bad breath, loose teeth, actual tissue destruction and bone loss. But the bad bacteria that overtake their mouth can seep into their bloodstream and affect the heart, the liver and the kidneys. And yes, it could even be deadly. So fortunately, dental disease is manageable and preventable. So why not take care of your dog's teeth at home by brushing their teeth daily with a pet formulated toothpaste? Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Sarah Jones is the visionary creator behind the #dogsinyellow national awareness day on 20th March, dedicated to raising awareness for dogs that need space. Her passion for canine well-being and safety for her own dog Bella has inspired a nationwide movement, educating dog owners and the public about respecting a dog's need for personal space. Welcome dog lovers! We have something new to learn today as I'm joined by my special guest, Sarah Jones, and we're going to be chatting about exploring the world of my anxious dog and boy do a lot of us have anxious dogs. Sarah, thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you for inviting me. Well, could you introduce yourself and share with us how you became so passionate about canine anxiety. My name is Sarah Jones, and I'm the Founder of My Anxious Dog. And I got into the world of yellow because of my anxious dog Bella. And the problems and the issues that I had, I needed something to help me while out in public with her anxiety and fears. And you've created something amazing which we're going to get into. I know that you sent me some background information. And I was really shocked that more than 70% of dogs suffer from anxiety or fear. And that was according to a study by the University of Helsinki. And a more recent report from PDSA PAW, back in 2022 of last year showed that a lot of owners have a lack of understanding of the needs of their pets. So we're seeing more issues, especially around behavioral problems. And that could be linked to lack of socialization. And especially during the pandemic, when we were two years with our dogs, did not leave our sides and then went back to the normal world and they were left alone. So why don't you chat more about your dog, Bella, and how you did get into this, as you said the world of yellow? My Anxious Puppy Bella Well, I had Bella from a puppy. She was eight weeks old. She's a cocker spaniel. Very pretty little puppy. And yeah, I've never never experienced anything quite like having an anxious puppy at all. At the time, when we went to see her from the breeder, she'd had a traumatic birth. And one of the puppies had died. Her mother had to have a cesarean surgery. And then she was about four or five weeks old and she got bitten quite badly on her back by one of the littermate pups. So when we picked her up at eight weeks old, you know, she still had quite quite a big sore on her. And then as she got a little bit older, we noticed her behavior was quite shy almost. If we went to we went, we registered at the local vet’s, there was a socialization class for the puppies, they invited like four or five, six people down with their puppies. And Bella just sat under my chair, when we got down there, watching the other puppies, you know, having fun and having little bundles, but she just sat very quietly. And I didn't really think anything of it or put anything together. And then we were doing flyball when she was about eight, nine months old, just learning the basis of of flyball. And we were in a park. And she was just doing a run finishing off it was only a small because it was for the younger dogs. And this dog from absolutely nowhere, ran across the park and just took her out from the side. And I think at the time, it sounded quite ferocious. I checked her over for bites and everything. And there was no, nothing like that. But I think she had soft tissue damage. So then when people touched her, it hurt her. And she remembered this. So then she not only had a fear of other dogs, but she had a fear of being touched by people. And this progressed very slowly. Because I didn't recognize the signs that she was showing that she didn't want to be touched by people to the point that she would growl and snap at people to tell them to go away. So having this little one year old, pretty little dog out in public then became a huge nightmare for me. I can't even imagine. And I'm sure that other people not knowing the situation. Just thought she was aggressive. And they probably judged you like, Oh, what are you doing? You know, you're not helping this dog? So that just exasperated the problem, I'm sure. Other Peoples’ Perceptions Yeah, absolutely. People didn't understand. And of course, you know, I found myself not wanting to do anything with her so much because I was really apprehensive about going out in public with her. Right. And why should we link the color yellow to an anxious dog? Why the Color Yellow? Well, yellow is the official warning color for caution. So in the UK, if you go to a building site or anything like that, it will there will be yellow, black and yellow tape. So it's, so it comes from there. And the idea behind it is it came from the horse world. that if you had a horse that kicked, it had a red ribbon on its tail. And the idea stemmed from there and it turned into a yellow ribbon. But obviously putting a yellow ribbon on a pretty little dog doesn't really help the situation. Right. So walk us through, you have this one year old, obviously, fearful, and you thought maybe with aggression, you weren't sure? What were the steps that you took to uncover why Bella had this anxiety that just took over her whole world. Training and Rehabilitation So when she first started snapping, I spoke to the lady that we've done the training with who told me about the yellow, I think it's called the Yellow Dog Project. And then I saw a couple of behaviorists as well and then started to understand about the other side of owning a dog and about anxiety and fear and reactivity. So I looked into the yellow products and back then that was nine years ago, there was hardly anything available out there. And what was out there wasn't I didn't find suitable for Bella the wording on it wasn't quite right. The quality of it wasn't quite right. And the choice of products wasn't quite right. So I decided to design my own. Well, that's cool. So what does Bella wear to alert others that she has anxiety. Yellow Garments She always has a yellow harness on I always use a yellow lead. And we always have either the wordings on there do not touch because that's immensely important. We have keep away and we also have anxious on the harness. So, in the winter and yesterday it was raining here. She had her anxious yellow little raincoat on. So she won't let anybody else touch her besides yourself and your family? Yeah, she's got a circle of people. And that's it. So if someone to Bella or if I'm out in public, and someone starts talking to her, normally, when you see a dog, you're looking at them, you're talk to them, and then people automatically put their handout to touch. Right? So if people then look at her and talk to her, she's instantly on guard, because she thinks next thing that's going to happen is the hand’s going to come down and touch me. So sure, yeah. So obviously, because of her issue, she was muzzle trained, as well, quite, quite young. So if we do go somewhere where it's really busy, still wear a yellow muzzle. So at home during normal life, she's fine, she's calm, she's happy. It's when you go outside, to the world of scary things that she reacts, is that right? She’s quite happy generally out and about, and she's quite happy that, you know, we've done so much training with behaviorists that she can walk behind another dog, walk past another dog. Oh, there's only a few dogs that she will actually bark and lunge at. She is very, she has improved a lot. So sometimes she will with smaller dogs she will want to sniff. So she will go in and sniff at a slight distance, but go in with a low growl as well as if to say, you know, she's obviously talking don't sniff Me I'm Scared or whatever that means. But it is quite odd that she wants to sniff but is also fearful. And that's today. That's at age 11. Yeah. So she is still traumatized by what happened to her as a puppy. Yeah. So you've worked with different trainers and behaviorists and haven't been able to completely rehabilitate, because she just can't forget, right? Compared to PTSD No, I suppose it's a bit like PTSD in humans, you know, post traumatic stress disorder, I think it's a bit the same. And having over the last four years suffered that with myself, I can, I can relate to it a little bit more. So I can even relate to you know, what some of these dogs go through and how they feel I can sort of understand it now. Because some things that have happened in life that really, really scare you, and is a trauma, you don't really forget them. You just learn how to deal with these things, or maybe improve and I think that's what's happened with Bella, she's got a bit more confident. Out and About because of the yellow has helped her so much that people do give us space. I think doesn't, it makes a massive difference to my confidence and her confidence. Yeah, definitely. And what do people say when they see you? Out? And about? Do they Question, you know, what's going on? Why is she wearing yellow? Can you tell me more about your dog? Um, in the beginning, yes, that used to happen. And still, even today, you know, somebody, I was out, I had to get my tire fixed. I had to take Bella out of the car and stand to the side and the mechanic that was going to do the job approached me and said, Oh, your dogs really pretty. You know, and I had to explain why she’s got a yellow lead and a great big thing saying do not touch. Oh, yeah, I didn't see that. Now I can see it and understand. So it's growing and growing. I think the Awareness Day has made a huge difference with the awareness for it as well. Lots of lots, it's enabled a lot of owners with anxious and reactive dogs to get behind it as well. We call ourselves the yellow army. I love it. We're going to talk more about the yellow army here in a minute, we're just going to take a quick commercial break, so hang tight, everybody. SPONSOR AD A shout out to my friends at Primalhealth for sponsoring this month's episodes. They are the makers of TEEF drinkable dental health for our dogs, and this is a product that I've been using for years. Over 80% of dogs over the age of three have active dental disease, so it's crucial that we get ahead of this condition. And TEEF is a patented 100% non toxic prebiotic formula that promotes protective bacteria to neutralize dangerous bacteria, even below the gum line. It's a human grade, safe and clinically proven powder that is easily added to your dog's drinking water. It promotes clean teeth, healthy gums, and fresh breath. We've already started adding teeth to Dutton’s drinking water as a preventative, and in addition to regular brushing, his teeth look amazing! So what are you waiting for order yours today by going to TEEFhealth.com . And use the code WOL to receive 20% off of your order. And we are back from that commercial break. And Sarah is talking to us about exploring the world of my anxious dog. And I think so many of us can relate to this, of course, I think your instance is extreme. And that's why you started this army of yellow, which I love. So Sarah, you want to talk about people approaching you? You know, you said in the beginning, people were asking a lot of questions. What is the difference between anxiety? And aggression? Is it all fear based? Fear Based? The majority of people that I speak to and my dog Bella as well, it's fear based. A lot of people don't understand that and think it's general aggression. But when it was first happening to me, you know, I've seen a mixture of trainers and behaviorists and behaviorists have all said, she is not an aggressive dog. It is it comes from being fearful. And the problem is, as well is that is how a dog communicates. So it's our perception that we're getting wrong of how a dog communicates to us. So that's how the dog, my dog, Bella is talking to another dog. Yeah, it's doing it to a human. So the dog on dog would understand what that all means. But, yeah, it's our perception. So the yellow has almost given. Bella, a voice that humans can understand. Right. And do you think if somebody has a puppy and they realize they are anxious, or that a traumatic event did happen? What would you suggest to people? Is it all about socializing them right afterwards? And trying to confront that fear or trigger? What to do with Anxious Dog? No, because it's all to do with levels of stacking. So, you know, if we have a bad experience with another dog, which is very rare nowadays, then I probably wouldn't take Bella out for a walk in a busy area, I'd make sure that we'd play in the garden, or we do more stuff in the house. We play games and things like that and have enrichment. So to let her calm down, and then when I go out again, I would try and make it fun and positive. Right. That's great advice. Well, let's talk about the Awareness Day that you have put into place for March 20. How did that come about? Awareness Day It came because I was getting so frustrated with people saying to me, the yellow is a really good idea. But nobody knows what it means. I was like, if you’d do something about it and use it, everybody would know what it means. So it sort of stemmed from that for other people to be able to get involved on the day. Because obviously social media is the forefront of everything nowadays. So you know, to be able to use it for that was really important. Are more people in the UK more aware of the dogs in yellow, or do you think it is becoming worldwide that people do know what it means? Do Most Know What Yellow Means? It's definitely becoming worldwide. I've I've had quite a few orders and interest from America, Australia, New Zealand, Europe. It's definitely definitely, you know, spreading. So obviously, I concentrate on the UK and yeah, I think it's definitely growing the awareness. So many people when I go out for a walk, give us space and know what it means now. That's great. And what happens when you're out on a walk because I know it happens here all the time. Other dogs are off leash, and not or they you know, the owner thinks I have my dog under control and they're not. What do you do in that situation? Confronting Other Dogs and People Well, sometimes it's very difficult on where you go so picking where you go sometimes so I wouldn't go to a park, a busy Park. That would just be silly of me to go to a park for me to walk through a middle of the park with people, children and dogs running around. Um, but sometimes you can go to the countryside, big areas, and you do come across people with off leash dogs. And, you know, they'll say, Don't worry, my dog’s friendly. And to us with dogs on yellow lead, it means I've got no recall. you know, there's 11 million dogs in the UK now. And they recognize that 11% of the owners have no recall when their dog’s off leash, but that's over a million dogs that, you know, we have to contend with. Which is, you know, basically, they're out of control dogs. And it's not fair to us that do have our dogs on a leash and have control. Yeah. And then the trouble is, it can get into a situation where you're then having an argument with someone because their dog’s jumping all over your dog, your dog’s getting fearful. So taking months of training going backwards now. And then if your dog snaps, that person then gets cross with you, because they can't control their dog. So it's always a difficult consideration both ways is important. And I think as well, if you have a dog that doesn't like other dogs, or other people or both, it's considerate for you to use the yellow not to expect people to just to know. So I think it works both ways as well. I think it's it's important for us to use the yellow to let people know from a distance. Absolutely. And if Bella is fearful of other people, do you ever have a pet sitter watch her? We do surprisingly. She takes time. So when we go on holiday, the lady you know, I was very careful when researching who I picked. And I found someone suitable when she went for an hour. And then she and she happened to be a dog behaviorist and she was you know, dog walking business. So she was very experienced. But yeah, so she will go to the vet, she goes to the groomers. It's almost like she knows she has to have these things done. And it's okay. That's fantastic. But the complexity of the dog's mind? Well, tell us about the survey that you did the impact of national dogs in yellow day. Survey Results Yeah, so we conducted the first ever survey back in December about how people felt the dogs in yellow, does it help them? Does it? Did it help them with the awareness. And, you know, all the different questions around it and over 1000 owners got involved in the report. And we got back 91% find, yellow enhanced their walks. Which, that's amazing. Just just really, really good. And 66% said they came into contact less with people and other dogs. So it's definitely definitely getting out there. Right. And do you have any stories that you can share with us of people that found you, your company, my anxious dog that changed their dog's life? Strong Community I do. I have a few. Quite a few stories of people come in and just just relate me relating to them as well, you know that they're not the only person so I formed a Facebook group called Anxious Dogs UK, where people in similar situations can just come and ask for advice about all different things. And it was amazing how people thought that they were the only one with a dog like that or struggling with issues and things. So that's got about 10,000 people in that group now. So, you know, we try and support each other a lot. It can be very isolating sometimes when you first start off with an anxious or reactive dog. Well, you are changing lives. That's so huge. Well, Sarah, as we are about to wrap up here, what are some words of advice that you would give to somebody that definitely has an anxious dog? What's the next step? If you've got an anxious dog, and you don't have yellow, try it because like I say before it, it's like a voice for your dog. And it also it helped my anxiety when I was out with Bella you know, obviously because Bella is also not good with people. but it just gives you a little bit more confidence about being out in public rather than just, you know, when I see Bella now out in the garden or in a secure field, and she hasn't got a yellow on, she looks naked to me. So, you know, the yellow definitely, definitely is telling people your dog's personality. So whether it's even just a yellow ribbon or a lead slipcover or a lead, I mean, I go, we go out in full on yellow, but it just gives you the confidence. And I'm very, very proud to be using the yellow with her as well. Well, I am so glad you started this initiative, you are obviously helping a lot of dogs and the people who love them. So Sarah, where can everybody find out more information about you, My Anxious Dog, and all of the amazing products that you do have available? My website is www.myanxiousdog.co.uk. And I can also be found on Instagram and Facebook as well under @myanxiousdog. So we also have a My Anxious Dog, USA Facebook page too. Facebook   My Anxious Dog Yellow Products (@myanxiousdog) | Instagram   (20) My Anxious Dog (@Myanxiousdog) / Twitter And I will have all of these links in the show notes for all of our listeners. Sarah, thank you so much for this yellow dog education. You know, that's what this is all about. We don't know what we don't know. And if you see a dog in yellow, we all need to pause and understand what it means and give them space. So I just want to thank you for being here today. Thank you very much. Thanks again to our friends at Primalhealth, makers of TEEF for sponsoring this month's episodes. Your dog deserves a healthy mouth. Go to TEEFhealth.com to learn more about this amazing product. And don't forget that the code WOL gets you 20% off of your order. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello Wag Out Loud listeners. Many of you know that last year I took a job with Dr. Judy Morgan. And to be honest, it's been a lot of work doing that AND running my Wag Out Loud business. Something has to give. So I've decided that my last Wag Out Loud episode will release at the end of this year. And it's been a great learning experience for me. And I'm so proud of all the great content that I have shared over the last four and a half years. So if any of you are interested in taking over the pawdcast, please let me know. It would be a great opportunity for someone else as passionate about canine health and wellness to carry on this legacy. And I have everything in place that I could easily teach you the ropes. So let me know. Email me at krista@wagoutloud.com According to the American Heartworm Society, more than a million dogs in the US have heartworm disease, and the sooner you get your dog treated, the better. Once your dog is bitten by an infected insect, it takes about seven months for the larvae to mature into adult heartworms. They take up residence in your dog's heart, lungs, and surrounding blood vessels and they start reproducing. Adult heartworms can grow up to 12 inches in length, disgusting, and live five to seven years, and dogs can have hundreds of worms in their system. And if left untreated, these worms can cause severe lung disease, heart failure, and damage to other organs in the body. But the good news is that most infected dogs can be treated successfully. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. As a professional animal healer from Ireland, Lisa Tully has an international practice working with all kinds of species using a multi-disciplinary approach. With a science background, she is grounded & informed in her holistic approach. Hi there dog lovers and welcome to yet another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And all the way from Ireland, today's guest is Lisa Tully. And she's going to be sharing how you've become so passionate about holistic animal healing options. We're gonna be talking about how dogs can heal themselves. So Lisa, first of all, thank you so much for being on with me today. I'm delighted to be here Krista. Thanks for having me. Well, we've had this on the books for quite a while we were joking about that before we hit record. So Lisa, why don't you give us some information about your background, which is fascinating in itself, and share why did you want to talk about how dogs can heal themselves. So my background is I have a degree in science, in chemistry and biology. And I worked in the pharma industry for a while for quite a while. And I got to really understand that part of the world. And I then started to become more holistic in myself as a person. And I started to meditate more and travel more. And that led me down to realize I had the ability to connect in with animals on a very deep level, maybe pick up things from them that, you know, the average person wouldn't necessarily understand. And I started to apply that and build a practice around it. And I'm forever a student. So as I understood what was going on with the animals, I wanted to help them, okay, could feel what's going on for the mentally, emotionally, physically. And what do I do once I have this information? So I started to study and I studied how to use flower essences. And then that led me down the journey of studying zoopharmacognosy. And that's a very long word. And it basically means animals that know how to self medicate. And when I first witnessed this phenomenon, where a horse was selecting between different buckets of herbs that were put down in front of him, it absolutely blew my mind. You know, I was just like, Is this possible? So I went on, you know, and I did my training for all species, dogs, cats, horses, everything. All animals can do this . And this then when I understood the zoopharmacognosy side side of it, then my background deepened even more. And because what I did then was I studied five elements, Chinese medicine for animals. And what I found then was that animals were not only able to self medicate with botanicals, and that they can actually start to self select what food is best for their body as well. Because in Chinese medicine, you really go into the energy of food. Like duck as a cold meat, lamb is a hot meat. And depending on what pathology is going on in the animal's body. And, you know, you go down that that route, now I work alongside holistic vets here in Ireland. So I'm able to really, really understand both sides of the coin. And everything I do is, you know, it's perfectly safe because the vets are there keeping an eye on the animals as well. Wow, that is just fascinating. You've gone through a lot to get you where you are today. Wow. And would you say that over there in Ireland compared to the US, how are alternative therapies for our dogs? You know, is it more prevalent, less prevalent? Are we about the same as far as approaching within a holistic mind as far as health and wellness? I'd say we're behind. And I think there's there's a lot more in the United States, and there's a lot more in the United Kingdom. So all the trainings that I did the professional trainings, none of them were in Ireland, I had to travel. And so you know, I am a little bit of a trailblazer here in Ireland. And there's more people coming up the ranks now that are studying with me, or studying with the teachers I studied with, so but when I started off, over, you know, 10 years ago, my practice here was pretty unheard of. And we definitely, definitely need more people to pick up the gauntlet, because I don't know about in the United States, but I know in the United Kingdom and in Ireland, we've got corporate vet practices that are just taking over. And our smaller single vet practices are being swallowed up. And people are becoming, you know, less disenchanted. You know, so we, that's why I like to work with the holistic vets that are here and we kind of spread the word. That's great. Well, yes, unfortunately, we are having the corporate takeover with veterinary practices here as well. It's, it's happening on a rapid scale, actually. So well, let's get into this. You mentioned, when you talked about your background about the five elements in Chinese medicine? Could you dive a little deeper into examples of what that looks like? Because I don't even know because I have a dog. He might love to lay in the sun. But then he gets hot, and then he wants to be on the tile to cool himself off. So I don't know. Is he considered a hot dog or a cold dog? You know, what, should I be feeding him? So could you go a little bit more into those five elements? FIVE ELEMENTS OF CHINESE MEDICINE Yeah, sure, the five elements in Chinese medicine is you can have like a constitutional type or a personality type, let's say. So dogs can be a wood element, which might be the dogos there kind of be a little bit more labeled as aggressive at times or extra assertive. And they can have eye anomalies and different things like that. And they have quite a stiff looking body or even stiff feeling bodies, you know, touching them is a bit like wood. And but they're amazing animals in the sense that they will always go for an adventure, they love the challenge. So each element has its positive side and then the side that is looking to be healed. So that will be a you know, top top line stuff about the wood element. And then you would have personality types like the earth elements. And these dogs are a little bit pudgy, little bit lazy, might sleep on a little bit longer in the in the morning time. So even till lunchtime, and they're very Homeward Bound animals, they don't like change, they'll be very clingy to you. Or, or actually, they could just be super appreciative of your company. Okay, so they're the home birds, they like just things to be in routine, you know, a classic example and they're not all earth elements, but a classic example would be like a Labrador and you know, that kind of a dog or you know, a pudgy calf, am and then you would have the fire element types. So, the fire element types are are joyful, really, really get over exuberant when they're around other dogs too much, okay, they get super excited. And because they have so much joy and excitement, it can tip into anxiety, okay, and they tend to be have like really long limbs and be like a red setter, you know flowing flowing limbs or they are that type of animal where they just capture your attention, they might be a bit of a joker as well. And everybody loves them because they're very heart energy. So the woods dogs are more liver energy, the earth dogs are more spleen, pancreas, and stomach. And then the the fire are the heart energy and the small intestine. And then you have the water element type dogs, which are very, very interesting as well. And because water element types are, they're the type of dog that kind of always needs a companion dog beside them. So if you're bringing them to the vet, you bring the companion dog with them, because they'll have a meltdown. And they're the dogs that if the guests come into the house, they're hiding under the couch, the fire element dog is at the door in the guests’ faces, and the water element is just sitting there going, when are they leaving? Okay, and the earth element is sitting beside the table, going when are they going to feed me, okay? And and the wood element might be growling at them a little bit. And then you have the metal element types, which are, they're really subtle in their energy. They're delicate in their nature, they're they're smart dogs, but they're very clear on their boundaries, they might not like other dogs coming up to their face and coming in too close. And they might give a little bit of a, you know, a little indication that they want them to go away. And these are the dogs that would grieve. Okay, so if their dog leaves, their dog companion leaves or their guardian passes away, they'll silently grieve, you have to watch out for those because they have, that's the energy of the lungs, which will be the metal element types, and the large intestine. So that's a snapshot of the personality type. But going back to your question Krista, where you have a dog that lies in the sun, and then that dog then decides to go lie on the on the tiles. So when you go much, much deeper into the five elements, and you go way past their constitutional personality type, and in actual fact, every animal has every element within them, because they have all the organs within them that each element represents. And when I assess an animal that has a pathology going on, I look to see which organs are out of balance by asking all these random questions, you know, how often do they go to the toilet? Or do they pee more than they drink? Do they lie in the midday sun? You know, all these different questions give me clues. So say for example, you have a senior dog, who is getting on a little bit in life isn't quite liking the cold, likes to come in little bit, arthritic, and wintertime really, really struggles in cold environments will actually bury under the covers, okay, they might even do that at a warmer time of year, but they're the dogs that are just under the bed. And then what happens is they're so they're a water element. They're looking like a water element type animal, but it could be just that their water element is out of balance, as well. Okay, we call it typology, as in constitutional personality versus pathology, okay, an actual imbalance in the water element. So if you have that same dogo that has the kidney cold within them, they're the dogs that are going to lie in the midday sun. Okay, they're there because what they're doing is deep down they have in a coldness in their body, they've got a deficiency more than likely this you know, every animal has to be looked at individually, but I'm talking top line stuff. So then they the what happens is the kidneys are getting a little bit tired. And the reason the kidneys get tired in all of us as we get older, is in Chinese medicine, the energy that goes into your kidneys that pretty much has to last you most your life happens at the time of conception. Okay, it's not an organ that kind of, you know, can boost itself back up again, like the liver or whatever. So this animal is low on kidney energy is a little bit cool. sitting in the sun, kidneys getting a little bit tired. And what happens is the kidneys keep the body cold. They regulate the temperature. But when the kidneys get a bit tired, the temperature can go up. Okay, and it can flip into an animal being too hot. So you might think Oh, that's a fire element type or are they wood? Well, actually, they're both. And everything is interconnected in this system. So you could very easily have an animal tip over into getting too hot because the yang energy has gotten too strong. Because the kidney energy, the yin energy is not strong enough. So it's about looking to see do we really help cool down he heat, the Yang, the that's come up maybe to the liver, or the fire element type? Or do we actually boost the kidneys and the kidneys will actually put out the fire. So that's where you have to really look at it on a case by case basis. Wow. Well, you have set the groundwork for what we're going to be talking about today. And I think that this is a great place for us to stop and take a quick commercial break. So hold tight, everybody, we will be right back. A shout out to my friends at Primalhealth for sponsoring this month's episodes. They are the makers of TEEF drinkable dental health for our dogs, and this is a product that I've been using for years. Over 80% of dogs over the age of three have active dental disease, so it's crucial that we get ahead of this condition. And TEEF is a patented 100% non toxic prebiotic formula that promotes protective bacteria to neutralize dangerous bacteria, even below the gum line. It's a human grade, safe and clinically proven powder that is easily added to your dog's drinking water. It promotes clean teeth, healthy gums, and fresh breath. We've already started adding teeth to Dutton’s drinking water as a preventative, and in addition to regular brushing, his teeth look amazing! So what are you waiting for order yours today by going to TEEFhealth.com . And use the code WOL to receive 20% off of your order. And we are having an amazing discussion with Lisa Tully about how our dogs can actually self medicate. And we got the groundwork of the five elements in Chinese medicine. So thank you for that great explanation, Lisa. So we're going to talk about how they can actually self select, depending on what is going on in their body. So you already mentioned that they self medicate with herbs, maybe with essential oils. Probably medicinal mushrooms would also fit into that category of course, food. So why don't you tell us? How do they heal themselves? What is the process? HOW DO DOGS HEAL THEMSELVES? So when they have shown me that which meridians in their body from the Chinese medicine that are most out of balance and what their priority is, then I work with the animal and this is all done through photos. So I even have clients in America, then the animal shows tells me what botanicals it is they want to use to bring themselves back into balance. So everything is animal choice the whole way through that I work. And when they self select, they'll choose say for example, they might choose an essential oil like Yarrow, okay, so they have really bad arthritis go back to that senior dog that's a little bit achy, the water element is out of balance. And because the kidneys rule the bones, they might choose Yarrow, because Yarrow is an amazing oil that helps ease aches and pains. So basically, what you would do is I like to use essential oils with full awareness of what other drugs they are on. And I always dilute down the essential oils as well. And I dilute them down according to the dilution the animal wants. So you then go to offer the dog the Yarrow, essential oil. And what happens is they'll start to sniff the oil. And if it's the wrong oil, they will not sniff it at all, they'll immediately turn their head away. Okay, but if they do like the oil, they'll have a sniff, it can be lightning fast, they have a sniff and then look away and lick their lips. And this is a sign first of all, the fact that they've sniffed it as a yes, the fact that they've licked her lips, and then they might go back and have another sniff and keep doing that. And eventually they start to yawn. And what's happening is the essential oil is going up to the olfactory system, which is basically up to the nose into the limbic part of the brain, which holds the memories, the emotions, it's the oldest part of the brain and then it spreads down into the nervous system. It goes across the skin barrier goes into the blood, and then spreads out into all the organs and will target the organ or the part of the body that needs that essential oil. And this happens in seconds from one sniff. So it looks like not much is going on. But the animals are so aware, they're lightyears ahead of us. And if you put down three different oils, they will just go for the one they want, they won't go to sniff all of them. And but to speed up the process, you're actually able to tune in with the animal much earlier. And then the oils that I send people are very, very specific oils, I send three, but I have hundreds, you know, I could show up and offer hundreds that would take forever. So then they just let the oil work. And they go into a deep trance, a healing trance with the oils at the start, where they're really going in very, very deeply. And it affects them on all levels, mental, emotional, physical and spiritual levels. And what happens eventually, they'll go off that Yarrow. They won't want to work with it anymore. Because they know the oil has done its job. And then you do another assessment and you send them new oils. It's unbelievable, if I send out three oils to a dog, they might choose to work with two oils for the first week, and then switch to the third oil in the second week because they know what order they need to work to the oils in. And they know how long they need them for. And they know how much they need them. And they do that with essential oils, herbs, flower essences, homeopathy, food, pharmaceutical, I've seen them deal with all those things. And do you think dogs have the advantage of the intense, amazing sense of smell, to be able to talk to the brain immediately when they are smelling the different options to them. And I don't think it makes a difference what species is doing it, I've seen them all do it equally as well. And although zoopharmacognosy is based on the idea of smelling, when I started to really observe the animals in my practice, I started to notice that they were more than in the same level self selecting homeopathy and self selecting flower essences, which in itself are termed as vibrational medicine, quantum medicine, even energy medicine, and there's no smell. But if you put out four bottles of flower essences, they'll go for the one of them. Or what I do is if you have a sick dog, who has a few different things going on, I'll put out homeopathy different remedies indifferent sources of water. And the animal will come up and have a lick of one source or go away, come back half an hour later to have a look at the other one, hover over the one next to it, and then go back to the other one and have another lick. it is unbelievable. Okay, so what does it look like? Let's say I hire you to look at my dog. And you said that you do an assessment, you would ask me a lot of questions about their behavior and their lifestyle. I would send pictures, then how do you tap into what is going on with them? Is it a form of animal communication? Or is it very science based? What do you actually do to to know what's going on with them? WHAT IS THE PROCESS? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I have I have this animal communication skills as well. And so what I do is I bring together everything. First of all, I go into the left brain, and I assess the form I've asked you to fill out and I assess that with the Chinese medicine side of things. And I look and I try and identify what pathology is going on. Because there could be different causes behind the same condition in Chinese medicine. So I'm I'm whittling it down and I'm figuring that out, okay, where's that pathology going? And then I actually communicate with the animal and I also communicate with the, the guides of the animal, I bring that in as well. It's what I do. And I say, Well, what do you what's your priority? What's going on for you? And this isn't about communication in the sense of having, like, what's your favorite toy? Or like, kind of it's no, it's really deep, profound stuff. And often the animal will say to me, you know, I have this condition, but actually, my guardian needs this, this, this and this, okay, because they often mirror what's going on with their human. So I bring all these things together. And then what I do is it takes me about two hours to do a setup session because I'm really getting to the bottom of it. And so the animal communication then comes in on that side. And then what I do is I have what I call It's a meridian chart. So it's all the meridians in the body according to Chinese medicine, the small intestine, the heart, the kidney everything. And then I'll actually douse, okay, and the animal will show me which of their meridians are out of balance, and which is their priority. And then I formulate that together with the research I did in the Chinese medical side. And then I prescribe them a very specific diet if needed to and the animal then through the dousing, self selects, what botanicals flower essences, herbs, all that jazz, so and supplements, everything. So it takes the guesswork out of buying 10 different supplements for you know, that arthritic dog, like well, actually, no, they just need this particular one. Okay, they need a bit of Devil's Claw or whatever. So it saves time, money, and the beautiful resources of the Earth. And the animal is fully in charge. And what happens then is I ask the animal, do you want to self select any botanicals for your person? Okay, so if there is that mirroring going on. So what they'll do then is they might make up a mix of essences, or a mix of essential oil, flower essences, or a mix of essential oils for their person. And then they always tell a picture, or they paint an emotional picture. And I've to this day, I've never ever ever had any animal Guardian say to me, Oh, I'm not going through that right now. My dog selected the wrong mix for me. So we should take our dogs to Las Vegas then is what you're saying to Las Vegas? Yes. Because they could pick the numbers, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that yeah, that's it in a nutshell, then. And I post the botanicals wherever they go around the world. And then I teach to people on a video call, how to offer them. Oh, my gosh, this is so fascinating. Well, I know on this show, you know, we all geek out about, you know, science like this with how to heal our dogs. But examples are the best. So I know that when you and I spoke before you talked about Bailey and his chronic ear infection. Can you tell the listeners about what happened with Bailey? CASES Yeah, so Bailey is an interesting case. And Bailey had been to two holistic vets before me and the the Bailey's guardian is also a homeopath in training. So the and the regular vet, everything had failed, this dog was having really bad ear problems, where the ear would get so inflamed, and it would actually get ulcerated, and it would have lots of wax going on in the ear as well. So this had been going on for a very long time, and the dog was shaking their head scratching. And then of course, the dog's Guardian was just driven demented. And, you know, really, really worried. So what I did was, I said to the Guardian, look, you've tried everything I said, but the one thing you haven't tried is asking Bailey, what Bailey needs. And this this particular story is I bring in the emotional side of it as well. So with ear problems, this would be the animal communication side of me, I have the right brain and where the ear problems represent not liking what you hear in life, okay, and then infections and ulcerations or that kind of stuff is anger. Okay, so I said to the person I said, Is there anything going on at home and there was okay, let's leave it there. There was there was not peace in the home environment, okay, there was words being said so, so that made sense. But then to go into the science of it and to go down into the left brain side of it. When an animal has these kind of ulcerations and this heat and this rawness coming up in the ear, for Bally's in case it was actually false heat rising up in the body that was coming from an imbalanced liver. So I had to support the liver. But you know, the ears themselves are actually ruled by the kidneys and in Chinese medicine but the liver can still have its input. So I was keeping an eye on the kidneys as well but I was I work with the animal as they present each follow up session. Okay, because they're showing me what the priority is. Okay, I could treat treat the liver I could treat the kidneys. I could treat the spleen, pancreas which because she was having gunk in the air. And there could have been also an involvement with the spleen, pancreas, but really it was the liver and the kidneys. So I had to rebalance the liver. I looked at the diet. Okay, I took out the hot meats. She was on a bit of lamb I took lamb out of the diet. I took out duck okay, because duck was too cold. I wanted to give her neutral meats like chicken, turkey, rabbit, you know all this kind of beef, port, these meats that are easy to digest. And I gave her guardian some flower essences to help her emotionally because what was going on externally around Bailey. And then Bailey then self selected some essential oils as well. And I've been working with Bailey now for about four months in and going from extreme chronic ear problems, she now just has the odd flare up. So we're still working, you know, it's just it takes time, that kind of a condition takes time, because it's it's internal imbalances going on. But I believe with Bailey now, we're actually at the point where her organs are so much more imbalance that we really, really have to watch now the emotional side, and what her guardian is doing because if her guardian starts to panic, or starts to get angry or agitated, Bailey's so close to her that her ear can flare. Okay, so when when you get to that point, I asked the Guardians like, take, keep a diary. Okay, so every time the ear flares, what's going on in your life, you know, and then it just becomes a point of self reflection. Because animals and especially dogs are so unconditional, that they'll constantly mirror back stuff to their people until they get it and they'll mirror it to a point that the animal will actually die from a condition I think, until the person learns the lesson. And if they don't, the next dog to come in and have the same condition. They are here to teach us. we have to listen. Well, we are just about out of time, Lisa, but I want you to give another example. I know you have Bella, Toby, Max, or maybe a newer one. Give us one more quick example of the before and the after. Toby is my neighbor's dog and during the winter time, he was on a walk and he got attacked by a much larger dog. And the dog put his his dog Toby just a little terrier. So he was literally picked up from his hind end and kind of shook right and he ended up being in the vet practice and you had to have surgery, extensive surgery and he had to have drains put in to you know, for a few days so I was treating him with botanicals and he was self selecting. And what happened then was he went back to the vet’s, got the drains taken out and we then got snowed in. Okay, we're up here in the Wicklow Mountains and we don't have jeeps with fancy you know Ireland we're not as organized so so we found ourselves snowed in and I noticed that where the drains had been taken out that Toby’s sides had started to build and swell out again at points and I just went uh oh, now this is a very dangerous place to be because animal bites are so toxic that actually what can happen it looks like things are okay on the surface, but underneath the skin layer is actually rotting away and they can die from sepsis very quickly. So I immediately worked with Toby and he self selected helped me self selected the ingredients to make up his own clay mix. Okay, his own essential oils with green clay in it, and with flower waters as well. And I packed that clay around the entrances of where the bite wounds were and where the drains were and I kind of reopened the skin. And what the clay does is it acts as an actual drain and it pulled all the puss out. So as the clay dried around the entrances, it started to get wet during the day as the body acts like the clay extracted out the infection. And he selected a homeopathic remedy silica which pushes the infection out. So we were pulling and pushing at the same time. And until the snow cleared for about three days. I kept washing his wounds each day offering oils. By the time he went back to the vet. So that was just like these wounds are perfectly clean. Tell me about this green clay. There you go. Yeah, so even in emergency Yeah, in an emergency like that. They'll show you the way. stay calm. Listen to the animal. OFFER Well, I think we've piqued a lot of interest here, Lisa and I know after this call, I'm going to talk to you about doing a consult for myself and our new dog Dutton. But for our listeners, I know that you have an offer. And this is so exciting. Lisa is going to offer you guys 10% off any consult with her. So the discount code is all uppercase. The word PODCAST. And Lisa how can people Not only find out more about you, but book a consult, where do they go? My website is https://animalhealing.ie. So ie is at the end of our websites here in Ireland. And you can find me there, super easy to remember and all the information’s there all the different types of readings I have. But if people want to you can also book in a discovery call with me through my website also. Okay, and I'm going to have all of these links to the website and all of her social media will be in the show notes for you guys. So we are going to sign off now Lisa, is there anything that you would like to leave us with today? Your Social Media URLs or Tags          Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalhealinglisatully/            Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/animalhealinglisatully            LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/animalhealinglisatully/ I just wanted to say that if people are ever worried about their animal family out there is like, try your best to stay calm, and no matter what the situation is. And talk to your animal like you would talk to another person, and they understand every word you say. Thank you, Lisa. This has been enlightening. And I am so excited to work with you. So thank you so much for being here today. Pleasure, thank you so much for having me and to everybody who's listening. Thanks again to our friends at Primalhealth, makers of TEEF for sponsoring this month's episodes. Your dog deserves a healthy mouth. Go to TEEFhealth.com to learn more about this amazing product. And don't forget that the code WOL gets you 20% off of your order. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hi everyone, this is Krista with Episode #182 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. In the latest Association for the Prevention of Pet Obesity survey, veterinary professionals classified 59% of evaluated dogs as overweight or obese and those numbers are increasing. An easy way for you to gauge your dog's body condition is to just check out the body condition score infographic on the Association for Prevention of Pet Obesity website. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello dog lovers, I am so glad that you've tuned in for today's informative episode, we're going to be talking about adopt don't shop versus responsible dog breeding. And I am joined by Amy lane. And this is a discussion that really needs to happen. I've been looking forward to this. So Amy, thanks so much for being with me today. It's pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Amy Lane has been breeding dogs for more than 25 years and is the creator of the mini Goldendoodle.  She founded the Goldendoodle Association of North America (GANA) to promote and guide the development of the Goldendoodle to achieve breed standards, while maintaining optimum health. Well, I am excited. Could you please first introduce yourself and tell us why did you want to cover this topic today? Okay, well, as you stated I am Amy Lane. I am a long longtime dog breeder, and I think that the topic of adopt don't shop doesn't cover things that people really need to know. I'd like to give some comparisons to that versus puppy mills versus a responsible breeder. Yes. And that's what we're going to cover today. And do you agree me that when it comes to dog ownership, to me, there seems to be two distinct camps. So people either believe in rescuing dogs, and then the others prefer to buy a dog from a breeder. So it's really an individual choice. And I don't think we should shame others for how they're acquiring their dog. Do you agree? Absolutely. Like I said, I've been breeding dogs for a couple of decades. And both of my children have two rescue dogs. They do not have or don't don't buy dogs or get dogs from me. They want dogs in need, so they're you know, that is something that does need to be addressed. But people that buy from a breeder should not be shamed because there are specific reasons why people seek out a breeder. Yes. So why don't we unpack this in your mind? What does responsible breeding actually mean? WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE BREEDING? Okay, well, every breed of dog out there comes with its own list of diseases and genetic deficiencies. And so from a breeder’s perspective, it's our job to do the appropriate health testing on every prospective breeding dog and weed out those that should not reproduce, and then pair dogs responsibly, to avoid creating litters that have health issues that could be avoided simply by doing health testing. And with most breeds, you know, AKC recognized breeds and breeders Is there any checks and balances to make sure breeders are breeding correctly, that they do have a really good breeding program? DOES AKC REGULATE BREEDING PROGRAMS? Not through the AKC. The AKC basically is a registry. They only allow purebred dogs to be registered their offspring to be registered, but they don't have any input into whether or not the puppies were a result of breeding a brother and a sister, or a mother and a son or a father and a daughter. They have no control over whether the two dogs that were paired together are unhealthy, or have produced previous litters with unhealthy puppies. And so again, that’s just makes them a registry, which is very different from what I think a kennel club should be. I'm involved with GANA, the Golden Doodle Association of North America, which is the kennel club for Golden Doodles And I created this organization back in 2008, to help guide the development of the golden doodle, and to do that in with the best health in mind, as well as temperament. So we have several different rules and regulations in place that are very, very different than the AKC. No dog can be registered as a breeding dog that has produced puppies, but hasn't been health tested, and proven to be worthy of reproducing. And that's our first step into creating healthy offspring purposely. Right. And I have to commend you for that. Because I know personally, you know, most of my listeners know that we lost Winston back in January. And, you know, he was a Norwich Terrier. I love the Norwich Terrier breed, I knew I wanted another one. And because they're so rare, and I'm super picky about the breeder that I choose, I thought I'd be on a waiting list for at least a year or two. We got Dutton he is a Norwich, he is amazing. And I am so blessed that we got him as soon as we did. But I was very surprised at how few, quote unquote, reputable readers there actually are. I went right to the Norwich Club of America, Judy is the executive director. And I said, Judy, who do you recommend, and she actually wanted to talk me out of the breed, because there aren't many good breeders doing the testing. So I was really disappointed that this breed that I love, that there are so few breeders to choose from. So in your mind, what percentage would you say are good golden doodle breeders, since that's the breed that you work with? That would be a number very difficult to ascertain simply because unless they are a breeder that is visible, such as being a member of GANA, we don't necessarily know about them. And I noticed there are breeders out there that are not members GANA, that aren't good breeders that are doing the health testing. But the numbers of breeders that aren't doing the health testing, and are only doing this to gain, you know, a few extra bucks, way way, outweigh the number of good breeders. And that was one of my purposes with GANA was to raise awareness about health testing and the importance of it. And the simple fact that we could avoid creating litters of puppies with known health issues that could easily be avoided with appropriate testing. Because a lot of times, that's the type of puppy that ends up in a shelter, because they've got issues and no one wants to adopt them and you can't sell them. And full litters many times are dropped off at shelters. And that that's a very sad situation that we all need to work together to raise awareness. Yes. And what do you think it is? Amy? Is it? I hate to say it is that the money that some of these breeders are just overlooking health issues that they know are there, but continue to breed that dog or those dogs? WHAT MAKES AN UNREPUTABLE BREEDER? I think it's a combination of money and or ignorance. With without the appropriate education, how is that uneducated breeder going to know to do better? So that that's, you know, one issue. The other is, it's an expensive task to raise breeding dogs and weed out the ones that don't pass something, we put our dogs to so many different tests and if they failed one single one, then they're removed from my breeding program. They are spayed or neutered and they're a pet for the rest of their life. So when you've got a breeder who owns tow or three dogs they've raised and two of them don't pass something rather than start over, they just breed those dogs. And so that that then does come down to money. And that's why the consumer needs to be so aware and and make sure the proper health testing is being done on the parent dogs. And Amy when we talk about health testing, what are we testing for? WHAT’S INVOLVED IN HEALTH TESTING? Well for each breed. It's different, different there has to be testing for the issues that are prevalent in that particular breed. So for golden doodles, we have to test for anything that is prevalent with the golden retriever and also the poodle, because a golden doodle can have any of those issues. So we for say a blue ribbon designation was GANA, we require that both parent dogs be tested and have passion rating for hip, heart, eyes, elbows at the patellas. And then we also have a list of diseases that are prevalent in one or the other poodle, or golden retriever breeds. And so, the diseases that we are testing for now and these diseases, change from time to time, as they become more prevalent, or as labs discover new diseases that they can actually test for. So the diseases we test for are ichthyosis, which comes from the golden retriever, Von Willebrand Disease which comes from the poodle, degenerative myelopathy, which can come from both. We have three different mutations of progressive retinal atrophy. One is a poodle mutation, two are golden retriever mutations. And we test for neonatal encephalitis, that's a poodle issue. And not that GANA is requiring these other two diseases, but it is something that I've been concentrating on which is Chondrodystrophy and Chondrodysplasia, which are the genes responsible for shorter legs in dogs, like Corgis and Dachshunds. Which are endearing for their breed, but undesirable in my breed. Sure. And do you test the mom and dad before each breeding? Or is it once a year? What does that look like? Well, the DNA testing needs to be done only once. So whatever the results are, we know that that we can breed a dog that is a carrier of something, but we just can't pair it with another dog that carries that same mutation. Because carriers are safe to breed, but two carriers that have the same mutation, then you have a chance of those those being paired up and when puppies inherit two of the same disease mutations, then they're affected with that disease. So DNA done once. And many times we don't even have to test puppies, because if we've tested both mom and dad, and they don't carry specific disease genes, the puppies can’t inherit them. So those puppies that would be deemed clear via parentage and not need to be tested. For the physical health testing versus the DNA disease health testing, be it the heart, the elbows, the patellas and the eyes, four of those, all but the eyes can be done just once, as long as the dog has achieved a certain age. And those are considered permanent clearances. Eyes ideally should be tested every year. And that's what's recommended in all breeds is for eyes be tested once a year, because of course vision can change over time. Sure. Well, this is all great information. Amy. We are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. SPONSOR AD Let me tell you about the dog food that I’ve been feeding to Dutton – it’s my pleasure to introduce everyone listening to Raised Right human-grade pet food.   They’re a family-owned company that works with world renowned veterinarian, Dr. Karen Becker, to make “home cooked style” whole food recipes for dogs and cats that are complete & balanced through using simple ingredients. And when I say simple, I mean simple, because all of their adult dog recipes have 10 ingredients or less, with some having as few as just 7 or 8 ingredients!  That’s all REAL food!   Raised Right’s limited ingredient recipes are high in protein and low in carbs.  Most have less than 2% carbs because they don’t use any high carb fillers like potato, rice, or pasta found in many other products.   One of the most unique things about Raised Right is that they were able to formulate their adult dog recipes to meet AAFCO’s requirements for a complete & balanced diet through using ONLY whole foods, without having to add any synthetic vitamins or minerals!   You can go to RaisedRightPets.com/WagOutLoud and use the coupon code PETS20 to get 20% off OF your first order of Raised Right’s human-grade pet food – I’ll quickly spell out the website that’s https://www.raisedrightpets.com/WagOutLoud   Your pets will thank you! We're back everyone speaking with Amy lane. And this is such an important topic if you either want to adopt or rescue a dog or you want to get a dog from a responsible breeder, which Amy is, and she's giving us the inside scoop of what to look for. So Amy, why don't we talk about the pros and cons of each. of either buying a certain breed that we want from a responsible breeder versus a shelter or rescue dog. PROS AND CONS OF BUYING FROM A BREEDER VS RESCUE Okay, well, originally the Adopt Don't Shop slogan and movement was created to guide people away from buying from pet stores because pet stores are notoriously provide their puppies from puppy mills. And so I am 100% behind that movement, to hopefully help people realize that buying from a pet store perpetuates the puppy mills. And we all know that puppy mills are deemed places that are unfit for dogs to live and where puppies don't get the care and the attention and the socialization that they need. And then those are the puppies many times that end up in shelters because they have issues and families give up on them. What has happened is that the adopt don't shop mentality has filtered over to breeders as well. And that's where we want to guide people appropriately because without responsible breeders, we have no more production of puppies and no more production of purebred dogs. Most dogs that are in shelters are not purebred dogs, they're accident litters from people that did not spay or neuter their pet. Or they're filled with puppies from puppy mills that they couldn't sell. And we still want to have healthy dogs, purebred dogs, or purposely bred crossbred dogs. And when you get a puppy from a rescue, you are saving its life. Absolutely. But a rescue dog isn't always an appropriate dog. If you have a family with young children, you don't know the history of this dog. Why was it turned over to the shelter? Did it bite someone? Is it not good with children? Is is a heavy shedder and not appropriate for family with allergies? Is the dog three or four years old and nobody's socialized it. So it has social anxiety,? Was it never house broken properly? And now that that's a difficult situation to correct when the dog is multiple years old. So many times dogs at rescues take a special person to adopt it. Who has the time, patience and the energy to retrain the dog. And there are families that don't have that ability or that time or they have young children making it not an appropriate match. And in those situations, finding a puppy, a well bred puppy from healthy parents from a responsible breeder who's done socialization, health testing and vaccinations and deworming. So that that family can start basically, from scratch with with this puppy and grow it and mold it and train it to be a member of their family. That choice shouldn't be taken away from families. And that is being taken away. If you say you have to adopt don't shop. True. And when we talk about, let's say a backyard breeder, a breeder such as yourself, and a quote unquote puppy mill. What exactly is the difference? WHAT IS A PUPPY MILL VS BACKYARD BREEDER VS REPUTABLE BREEDER? Okay, puppy mills typically have dogs living in cages. They are not a part of the family. They are bred and deliver their litters without any human assistance. The puppies that live, live the puppies that die, die. many times they have no vaccinations. No deworming. those puppies are not handled and socialized day one by humans. So that when those puppies are sold or they leave that puppy mill at eight weeks or so, families are receiving puppies that are reactive to crowds and loud noises, don't travel well in a car and also may have inherent health issues that could have easily been avoided. And puppy mills also notoriously euthanize dogs when they're no longer producing money for them. and one step away from that is your your backyard breeder. The dogs may live wonderful lives with families, but they are being bred without proper screening and health testing. And they could be creating litters of puppies that have genetic deficiencies that may not be noticed until, say six or seven years of age, such as progressive retinal atrophy, which when a puppy inherits a gene of that from each parent, they're gonna go blind at age five, six, or seven. And it's irreversible, there's nothing you could do about it. And so, these backyard breeders are not educating themselves on health testing and on appropriate social socialization protocols, and vaccinations with deworming. So these puppies may have been raised around children. And may have some socialization skills, but they were not bred for temperament, for confirmation and health. then you go to the professional, reputable dog breeder who makes a living breeding dogs. For that person, reputation is critical. And reputation is represented by the health and longevity of the puppies they put out into the world. So a reputable breeder is going to have or be accessible to all of the puppy’s families for the life of that dog, they're going to have done all of the appropriate health testing on the parent dogs going to scan those health tests with each puppy family that purchases a puppy, they are going to provide records of deworming, vaccinations, they're going to share training tips, and offer online training programs or have an affiliation with a trainer to help their families. So basically, buying a puppy from a reputable breeder, breeder means your puppy has had the best start in life, and therefore has the best chance of developing into a mature, wonderful family dog with the support of that breeder. And another thing with responsible breeders is if anybody cannot keep a puppy, that regardless of the age that originated from that breeder, reputable breeders will take them back, they don't want that dog to end up in a shelter. They want the dog to come back to them so they can find an appropriate home for that dog to live out the rest of its life. And that is the complete opposite of what you get from a puppy mill. So if you were to tell somebody here is what you need to do when you are looking for a puppy, screening breeders, what would you say are the top three or five things that they should do their homework on? HOW TO SHOP FOR PUREBRED PUPPY If they are not, in a situation where they have the time to rehabilitate a dog, whether it's health wise, or, you know, emotionally, then they need to look for a responsible breeder that is doing health testing that is prevalent to that breed. And you can go on the AKC website or the OFA.org website and look up what issues are prevalent in each breed. And then you should be able to ask that breeder. Do you test for these? And don't take a yes answer as a definitive answer. You have the right to see those tests. And you want a dog that comes with a warranty and not just a five day warranty. You want a breeder that stands behind their puppies with a minimum of a two year genetic defect warranty. You also want a breeder that is accessible to you when you have questions and you want a breeder that says I will take that dog back from you no matter what no questions asked any phase of that dog's life? That proves you've got a breeder who stands behind their dogs and who really cares about their dogs. And just because somebody is online does not make them reputable, correct? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There are puppy mills with wonderful websites. very deceiving websites. So you need to talk with the breeder. You need to view the health testing on the parent dogs, you, we can't say, Hey, you could visit the breeder before you make a decision because breeders have a life as well. And every time somebody comes into their kennel or their home where they're raising dogs, they have to do an entire sanitation protocol to remove any germs and so forth that people bring in. And many times people visit multiple kennels in a day, and they're carrying germs from one kennel to the other. So what we like to do is offer Facetime with a breeder, where the breeder can show you the kennel, or the or the whelping area, or their puppy play areas, they can show you puppies, you can meet a dog, but you're not risking the health and well being of the dogs and their puppies. So that is something that has become very commonplace. Especially since COVID, when nobody could visit anyone. FaceTiming has been a great way for you to analyze a breeder situation and determine are they reputable? And is that where I want my puppy to come from? Great advice. Well, I'm just curious. The golden doodle is a great example where you've actually created a new breed, you've put together the golden retriever and a poodle, what is involved with creating a brand new breed? WHAT’S INVOLVED WITH CREATING A NEW BREED? Well, quite a bit actually. We and we've been developing this breed for a couple of decades now. So we actually are breeding golden doodles with golden doodles, but when you are starting with two breeds that are so very different. You know, a poodle has a curly non-shedding coat. And a golden retriever has a straight profusely shedding coat. The goal with with golden doodles are to maintain that fun loving personality of the Golden Retriever and that loyalty and the intelligence of the Poodle, but also to create a non shedding coat. So that takes use of DNA technology. Testing on each parent dog before selecting puppies out of the litter to keep for future breeding, doing DNA testing on them, and eliminating dogs that aren’t going to have the genetic makeup that you want to become prevalent in the next generation. And many times that leaves you with one puppy, that's genetically correct. But you want a selection of great temperament.s So we can take litter after litter after litter before you have a puppy that seems to be exactly the epitome of what you think a golden doodle should be to breed on from. And that's only half of breeding pair. So now you have to do that with the other half of the breeding pair that's unrelated. So it is a long process that takes a lot of education. And that's one of the things that GANA does is educate its breeders on the use of DNA technology. We now know how many curl genes a dog carries and how many shedding genes each dog carries, and the color DNA that each dog carries. So when we pair these dogs together, we know will all the puppies in the litter be non shedding? will all the puppies have a straight coat or will some have a curly coat. Will some be carriers of an issue.? You know. So all of that is fairly new, I'd say in the last 10 to 15 years, 10 years really, since we've had DNA technology at our fingertips, reasonably priced, where we can get results back quickly to help us with our breeding decisions. That's fascinating. And when you say DNA tests, because I know recently, those have come into question, when you take a rescue dog, for example, do a DNA test and I know behind the scenes that you know news companies have done this with their own dogs and tried five different tests get five different results. With the DNA testing that you're talking about for the breeding program. Is that different than a kit that anybody could just buy and find out what breeds of dog are in your dog? DNA TESTING Well with any lab, I’m sure there is a an amount of variance in accuracy, what we are testing for for diseases, unless the lab makes a horrendous mistake. It's a yes or no answer because They're looking for 0,1 or 2 genes. Zero means the dog doesn't carry it. 1 way may mean to dog is a carrier of the disease, but it's still safe, that dog won't ever be affected by the disease, or that dog carries two genes, and therefore, that dog has that disease, and it will be expressed, whatever common life is difficult for that particular disease. So that is very, very useful for us, of course, to avoid health issues, but then we have the aesthetic part of DNA testing. And that tells us, you know, whether they carry zero curl genes, or one or two curl genes, whether they have zero shedding genes, whether this dog has the capacity, to produce chocolates, or burls, or, you know, phantom, or tuxedos or party color, you know, all of that is the aesthetic side to it. And then there is the breed designation, side to it. Not all labs, do all of those in one test. But I know, for instance, Embark does all three of those. And what happened with the 3 designation is many times, for instance, look at the golden doodle, okay, one day the golden doodle may be listed a breed there. But it's always going to pull our show poodle or golden retrievers in the background, and the heritage of the Golden Retriever. You know, it wasn't just the golden retriever dropped onto the earth, it was created by crossing other breeds. So when you test that you find those ancient breeds also in there. So that I think is one of the reasons why, oftentimes, the result looks skewed. Because you're you're pulling ancient genes from founding breeds, because all of our dogs, all of our purebred dogs were created by crossing other breeds together some time in the past. Well, Amy, we are out of time. I have one selfish question that I've always wanted to ask, before we wrap up, and that is, what is a healthy amount of litters that a female could or should have before she's retired from breeding? HOW MANY LITTERS PER DOG? Well, we actually limit our dogs to four litters. But it is not due to a health concern. Our breeding dogs are raised in families so that they grow up as a single dog, or maybe one or two dogs in a family. And when that dog finishes its breeding career, it gets spayed or neutered, so we limit our litters to four. However, I have followed Dr. Hutchinson, who is one of the leading reproductive vets in the United States. And his statement is that you can breed a dog every single heat until the litter sizes decrease. And that tells you that that dog, her breeding career is coming to an end. And without getting too technical. Every time a dog comes into heat, they shed the lining of the uterus. And it's exactly as harmful to their well being as having a litter of puppies, and therefore having a litter or not literally as long as they're not spayed and they're going through a heat cycle, they experience basically the same thing. So that could give you 10 litters. 2 litters from from a single dog. As long as she is healthy, bounces back and enjoys being a mom. There really isn't a limit to how many litters a dog could or should have. Thank you for all of this amazing information. Amy, where can everyone find out more information about you and your Fox Creek Farm golden doodle breeding program? Well, our website is very easy to remember it's Goldendoodles.net N E T. We are Fox Creek Farm. So that's what you will see when you open up the website. Wonderful. Well, Amy, thank you for being a responsible breeder. And for being a founder of GANA, that is an amazing program. If only all breeds had something like that, that would be amazing. So I really want to commend you for all of the hard work that you do in your program. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure today. Thanks again to the team at Raised Right for being our monthly sponsor.  Raised Right does it right, with human-grade, complete and balanced, limited ingredient pet food.  Why not get some raised right for your cat or dog and save 20% on your first order by checking out RaisedRightPets.com/WagOutLoud.  Your pets will thank you! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Well hello! This is Krista with Episode #181 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? Well, these are products that I've researched, that I've tried, and I know like and trust. These products will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com And check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important information for both you and your dog. Well, our new puppy Dutton is starting to lose his puppy teeth. Did you know that a puppy is born without teeth, but will have their 28 baby teeth in place by the time they are about six weeks old? And a puppy starts teething at 12 to 16 weeks of age. And normally by six months of age, all permanent teeth have erupted and all the baby teeth have fallen out. Bye bye sharp baby teeth! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. You will never "look" at your dog the same after hearing from Board Certified Animal Naturopath, Poppy Phillips, on Animal Iridology.  The eyes are not only windows to the soul, iridology, the study of the iris, offers insight to your pets' wellness. Learning about the basics of iridology can empower dog guardians to know if your canine companions are needing some extra care in certain areas of their bodies, stress levels, help assess if your dog's current nutritional protocol is working effectively, and help track diagnosed diseases.  Hello, hello dog lovers! We have a another fascinating episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast in store for you. And with me today is Poppy Phillips and she is going to cover a topic totally new to me. It's every dog's eyes tell a story and it's not what you think. So Poppy, I am so thrilled to have you on the Show today. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited being here today, too. Yay. Well, this is gonna be a learning experience, I think for most of us. So why don't we start by having you introduce yourself and tell us how you got into iridology. I am a Board Certified Animal Naturopath from and went to a College that offered an animal naturopathic program and also taking courses from Clinton college and some other naturopathic type colleges. I studied animal and human nutrition at Cal Poly. And also at Delta College. I was a year and a half away from a dietitian license and I didn't believe in the food pyramid. So I bounced out and just dove into the natural, holistic aspect. I was not going to tell people to eat jello. wasn't going to do it. And so I've taken I'm certified in homeopathy. I am an AI tech for horse reproduction. I've been a horse trainer and started Equine Alternatives first back in 1998. And then just rolled into other animals with muscle testing, and then adding other modalities like herbs and diet and so it became kind of like a life health coaching for your animals. But iridology was a course offered at College. And I thought it was a total joke. I thought it was like this woo woo ridiculous thing, but it was affordable. And I thought it would set me apart because I didn't know any animal iridologists. So I jumped on board and halfway through the, it was a two day like six hour thing. And halfway through it, I was just blown away by it and just wondered why nobody was doing this. So I was all in after that and started to document I actually tried to prove it wrong. And there are some glitches to to what we figured out. I have a membership and we try to passionately do research and advanced animal iridology so I have like four veterinarians that submit eyes and their whole case studies and we learn from that. Wow. Okay, so it's been a journey for you. Yes, it is. And every year we we learn more and more. Well, because I never knew this even existed before I talked to you. Can you share with the listeners what is iridology. WHAT IS IRIDOLOGY? Iridology is the study of the colored part of the eye. And so if you I'm sure all of you have looked deeply into your animal's eye and then went, why is that blob there? Or why is there some different coloration? And some people even go? Yeah, my animal's eyes went from like yellow to brown, or really dark. So then often they run their animals to the vet. And the vet usually says, oh, it's not a big deal. We don't know why it does that. Well, iridology does. So these superficial marks, not like abscessed corneas, or anything like that. So you have to differentiate between a legit eye issue or this superficial mark, but they can be in black or brown, gray, white or yellow. And you can detect like toxicities, Parasite load, bone alignment issues, trauma. So it's it's so exciting. And this is why I always say you'll never look at your dog or humans again, after hearing about this because you'll just be staring at every single animal’s eyes from here on out. Well, let's dive into this. How long has this modality been around? How did it start? WHAT IS THE HISTORY? So they recorded Howard Carter, I think it's Howard Carter, when he discovered King Tut’s tomb, discovered silver plates of Iris markings. And so the priests were actually iridologists in ancient Egypt, and would record it on silver plates. And so they found those. I believe China probably had some recognizing aspects to it. But those were tangible plates that they had in their own hands and realized that it was iridology. And I love the fact that the priests were also your medical doctors back in the Egyptian days. That is fascinating. Okay, so it's been around a long time. A long time. Exactly. And fun fact, now, because of the human retina recognition system, science is looking at the retina more and more, because you know, you do those retina looking into your computer and recognizes you. But now they're detecting neurologic diseases before it manifests in the body through Iris markings. And we're starting to we're seeing the same in our own studies and research in our in the membership. So we're seeing equine neurologic issues show up before the owners are recognizing it. It is great in prevention, you can be ahead of the curve. Oh my gosh, okay, you're blowing my mind. When I looked this up. It says animal Iridology enables the constitution of the animal to be obsessed or not obsessed, assessed. What does that mean? What does constitution mean in this case? A constitution for me it's kind of the over all, like description of the animal's well being. So I love the fact that you can use it as a constitutional assessment. Because I also am a acute prescribing homeopath. I'm not a chronic prescribing homeopath. I haven't done those years and years of school. I wish I did, I kind of kick myself because I love homeopathy also. But you can actually since animals can't talk to you and the owners often don't know what is really going on, you can look in the iris and see the stress levels and the toxicities and just some chronic deeper marks that might have been there. And the owner didn't even know like maybe falling off that sofa did some issues or just over the top behavior. So yes, your animal guardian can communicate what they know but if it's like a rescue or something where you have no history, the eye can help you. the iris can help you determine what that personality what that intensity what that trait is. And and that definition of the whole being through the iris. WHAT CAN BE DETECTED? Okay. But you mentioned a few things that can be detected from iridology. Can you tell us a little bit more like what exactly by looking at the iris and the markings? What else can we see besides I think you mentioned toxicities. And you I just I just read you know bone alignment and parasite load, individual organs, their skeletal load. Yeah glandular health, stress levels, skin, circulatory, neurologic health, levels of pain. So all your detoxifying organs, if they are not functioning, if they're getting congested, then you know, illness is setting in because your skin, your liver, your kidneys, your lymphatics, they all have to be functioning for the body to keep in alignment, to have that whole health aspect. And so you can actually see where your ailamentary aspects are functioning or not functioning the GI tract. The thing I love about iridology is they were so on top of gut health before anybody was talking about the gut microbiome. They were already talking about disease settling in the gut, and you can see where the gut is either stressed or toxic or just not fluid and functioning from the iris. Oh, my gosh, that is amazing. Yeah. It's just so crazy. The more I learn, the less I know. And it's just overwhelming and awesome. And it's super user friendly for the pet parent. Well, what exactly are you and we looking at and looking for? Is it just us looking in their eye? Or do you need special equipment or tools to see better? WHAT TO LOOK FOR? The funny thing about cell phones is it's totally exponentialized the user friendly aspect of iridology. So back in like the 1950s, you know, you had to find somebody with a certain type of camera. And even before color photos came out, they were hand hand drawing the irises. So prior to color photos, it was all like sketches. And after color photos, you had to find somebody with a pretty elaborate photography system. But now, with the cell phone technology, anybody can take pictures of their animals eyes and gauge their wellness. So you can actually see if their diet is working, what their pain levels are. We have people tracking their their animals, chronic diseases. we had in the membership, we have like animal iridology practice classes. And one gal has been tracking her animal’s disorder. And last night, I was like, hey, it looks like your animal’s getting better. And she's like he is he is and you could totally see it in the iris. No way. Oh, my gosh. Well, you mentioned before, like, you know, if we have a rescue, that the eyes are the window to the soul and to the health that we can actually see. I think they call them stress rings or cramp rings in the irises and that so many rescues have this because of what they've gone through. IRIDOLOGY IN PUPPIES Right and over vaccination. So, so I've been trying to do a study on puppies. We have horse foal photos, where the foals, you know, horses open their eyes right away, whereas puppies and kittens don't. So it's a little tricky. And so I keep asking my members to get me puppy photos prior to vaccines. And we haven't been able to get very clear shots yet, but after vaccines, those eyes look really bad. That doesn't surprise me. I know and it's heart wrenching. I just every time somebody submits a puppy photo, I'm like, this is after vaccines, right? And they're like, Yeah, this sucks. And so it's just heart wrenching, but we're trying to track it from from birth to end of life and also genetic lines. So we're trying to track the father and the mother and see what the genetic crossovers if you can detect genetic abnormalities in the pup for purpose, you know, if you look at, so if you're considering breeding to a certain stud dog, you can look in the iris and go I don't know if that's gonna be a greatest . I kind of digressed on your question. No, I this isn't all just amazing. A tool that I didn't even know was in the toolbox, which is cool. Hey, Poppy, we are going to take a break. This is a perfect time to take a quick sponsor break. And we're gonna get into this everyone so hang tight. We'll be right back. SPONSOR AD Let me tell you about the dog food that I’ve been feeding to Dutton – it’s my pleasure to introduce everyone listening to Raised Right human-grade pet food.   They’re a family-owned company that works with world renowned veterinarian, Dr. Karen Becker, to make “home cooked style” whole food recipes for dogs and cats that are complete & balanced through using simple ingredients. 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And we are back with Poppy Phillips and talking about this amazing science of iridology. Poppy, I understand that there are seven zones of the iris, can you quickly touch on those? You know in the animal? We don't. We haven't dialed that in like humans yet. So there's the outer rings that go in concentrically into the inner rings. When I studied with Mercedes, who is still alive, she's a pioneer of animal iridology. And I'm happy to say that she’s on my cell phone, so I can call her up and ask her questions. She doesn't go into detail about that. So thank you for asking that. It was something that I actually asked her too is, why don't we break that down? More. So I actually need to apply myself on that better. So if it does Jive as distinctly as humans humans are so much more advanced. Humans, they can tell like the mother marks on one eye and the father marks on another eye. And the brain region is so much more detailed. So this is why we've taken the work of Mercedes and tried to run with it and uplevel it. It is in progress. That's the exciting part is we this is like third generation animal iridology in a way. Or second generation I guess. Well how does somebody learn this science or become a practitioner? HOW TO BECOME AN IRIDOLOGIST So I am going to start doing courses. I have one in the process and then doing like little webinars, we also have the membership. Mercedes was certifying people through her course. And but Mercedes is kind of on the retirement level. She's in her later 70s right now. She's basically handed me her stuff and said run with it. So I am putting together a situation where people can get certified and create community in membership we do assess eyes and practice on it and have ongoing conversations and and the fun thing is eyes change. So when you get your, your diet right or when you go to the chiropractor or, or if you have a surgical procedure, it will all mark on the eye and you can track that. You'll see the changes instantly, like real time like it happens so fast. It's crazy. Like you can do a chiro adjustment. The iris and the pupil will respond instantly the minute you release that nerve that releases in the eye. I just I can't believe I never knew about this. I know. This is why this is my platform. I’m screaming it from the top of the buildings right now and you guys this is the coolest stuff, and it's so easy, it is hard to take your dog’s photos, because it can hurt their eyes. So you have a small window of opportunity, like don't get too obsessed with it. I take, oh, if there is an issue, if you notice something in your animal’s eye, then definitely recorded it and you can video it or you can photograph it make sure there's enough light, there's no glare. But will you have the flash enough to get into it, but kind of stand back and zoom in so you're not like flashing in front of their face. So yeah, they don't love that flash, you guys. So be careful with that don't, don't shock them. Or else they will never let you take their eye photos again, but make sure your lens is clean too. get clear pictures, I learned the hard way on that. Yeah, and there are certain things that will give you a false reading or there's some issues to why it wouldn't work is sometimes the eyes are just too dark. And you can definitely go into your editing on your cell phone and try to tweak it with contrast and bright and all that so you can see a few marks. But if you have eyes that might be black or toxic, then you might not see much, but you can also go well, they're super black. So maybe we need to detoxify and medication, certain anti inflammatories that will block the reading, the markings on the eye because they're nerve type medications. And so you'll get a false healthy reading. That makes sense. What is the one thing you cannot do with iridology? CAN’T DIAGNOSE You cannot diagnose like cancer or any sort of diseases. I'm not a veterinarian, but what you can do is point people in the right direction. So I've had some very difficult cases where vets are stumped. And we looked at the iris and said, Hey, look in this area. And it was accurate. So I've actually had a case where the client had done like all these at home tests like AnimalBiome, and lots of veterinarians and the dog was having a clear life, concerning issue. And the iris showed a very, very stressed GI tract, not toxic, the owner was super savvy, and had this dog on an amazing diet. So the GI tract wasn't toxic, but it was seriously stressed. And then they finally scoped it and found like lesions or ulcers in the GI tract. And so the iridology was more accurate than anything they had done up to that point and help the vet get to the right place. Okay, now you're giving us examples which we all love. What are some other cases that you've had where iridology had the answer? REAL EXAMPLES/CASE STUDIES This isn't my case. But this is a friend of mine, who is an amazing equine iridologist, and she actually does pre purchase assessment for horses. And so people will submit eyes to her, she'll read them and say, hey, you need to X ray this area or that area. And she had a horse come to her that was absolutely sound and healthy. And she looked at the eye and went, No, this isn't gonna fly and the owner was the pre purchase potential owner was just like, No, I think you're wrong. And she goes, Well, just let's be safe and Xray that area. And unfortunately, the the horse was probably drugged. And the Xrays were horrible. So this guy was wasn't even going to pursue like a pre purchase exam, but off of her own Iris assessment. She nailed it. absolutely nailed it. And for my dog, I had a dog with a spinal cord tumor. And I could literally track the spinal cord tumor growth and recession with it. So I wouldn't have known that mark was the spinal tumor mark. But we went ahead and had the surgery done. And that mark went away with the surgery, or was just a little blip in the iris. And then like three months later, it started growing again and I went to my my dog's neurologist, I go, Hey, I think this is growing back. He's like, No, you're just imagining things. I'm like, I don't know. And about a week later, he was like, you might be right, let's do an MRI. So before he read The MRI, I go let me tell you what I think is going on I go, it's bigger. It's back and there’s two tumors now and he looked at me and goes, How the hell would you know that? I know I want to show you my iridology study. And he was absolutely open to seeing it and even more blown away by the results matching the MRI. Sure. And were you guys able to operate again or what happened? I didn't want to put him through that. So we just got him a cart, and let him live out the next six months. Like a party animal. We made the best six months of it. And so yes, so A the iridology helped me be a little ahead of the game. I learned a ton from it. And yet, we didn't stop the progression. Yeah. And so you can see you can kind of gauge chronic illnesses, acute illnesses, trauma, I had a cat come in the other day. The client sent me photos saying, hey, my cat's eyes changed drastically. And they were marked in the spinal cord area all the way up to the brain region. And I go like, is your cat acting weird? She's all No, not really. And it was a animal who live next to a Nature Preserve. So this cat can come and go. I bet your cat got him a little bit of a tiff with some animals or something like that. And so recommended homeopathy, I actually do this pet prayer process also with animals. So we prayed for her cat. In four or five hours, this cat's eyes had totally cleared out. Yeah. I'm trying to think of more case studies, we have a veterinarian that submitted a paralyzed dog who had a leg removal, and the whole leg marked on that eye. So the right eye controls the right side of the body. And the left side controls the left side. So whatever side the leg was removed, you could actually see the shape of the leg in the eye in that quadrant. So what are we looking for when we are looking for… you've mentioned lesions, or blobs or marks? What does that look like? HOW TO ASSES THE IRIS For the pet owner, What you're looking for is like little streaks or furrows, you're looking for dark marks, light marks, texture of the eye. If the eye looks super fibrous, there's probably some stresses going on there. Or maybe we don't know for sure. Maybe it's a little dehydration also. It is something we're currently researching. But the shape of the pupil if it's not circular, if it's a little oblong, or just not very crisp. You can also tell absorption if your animal’s actually absorbing it, nutrition and diet. You can if the eye is darker, it might be toxic. So clear. You can see these eyes clear up with like detoxification so you can literally gauge your program, which is so fun. And you can help with that too. Absolutely. Yeah. So I can help or I refer you to other people. It doesn't have to be me. I'm not like all in. I just love teaching and helping people see this stuff because I think it is a super cool tool that could possibly help you save your pet’s life. You can see heart issues coming or managing lung issues. We did a dog in our iridology practice class last night and we could tell that he had a low oxygen ring. And the owner was like, well, he does have a trachea issue. So he's just not getting enough oxygen. There you go. There you go. It's right there. It's all in the eye you guys. You can also read the sclera. But we haven't advanced to a lot of sclera reading as a community in the membership. We are trying to advance this together collaboratively. But still, step by step. There's so much to do. Sure. Well, if somebody wants to learn you mentioned your course or that you could just do an assessment on their animal. Can you tell me more what would they get out of that or you know, even just one on one with you. So if you want to do one, one on one appointment? The trickiest thing is getting the eye photos. so there's a couple people, I've had to say, this isn't gonna work for us because you can't get the eye photos. So you will to get your best eye photos, you might need a friend holding some treats, or maybe get a squeaky toy or a ball. shoot away and try to crop it as close to to clear and filling your screen as possible. But I can also crop on my side, if you get a video, I can freeze it and crop it. And then I have a whole assessment chart. And I also like to see the whole dog's body so we can compare and contrast before and after the dog's body too. So Mercedes never tracked the physical body of the animals. And it was one of my frustrations is I want to see the animal change, because in my own client one on one, where I'm going to their account, we can see that. And so if I'm working on a horse, in person, I can shoot the photos. Do the body work, you can actually see if I did a good job or a bad job on the bodywork. And, you know, revisit. I didn't really get that. Let me go back and do that again. And then the eye clears up in this department. So yes, we can do that one on one on Zoom. We go. We assess your eyes together, you get a print out and recommendations or discuss what you're most comfortable with on how to proceed. Okay, well, I will put where to go to get with Poppy. But she has a really amazing offer for those that are thinking about making an appointment with her. Do you want to share that Poppy? OFFER Yeah, I would love to work with you guys, if you are super excited or freaked out that now you have marks on your animal’s eyes. And I always tell people don't panic, as long as your animal’s in a good good body space and mental space. It's not like life or death. I have a 20% percent discount for this podcast. So if you guys want to hop on, that there's a booking link that we're going to attach, right or doing, say the booking link? Well, really, it's yeah, it's up to you. I mean, however, do they just mention this podcast? Or is there a certain code that they use for the 20% discount? So the link actually is already infused with the discount. Oh, perfect. Well, and I have a link for you guys in the show notes. So just click on that. And as we are wrapping up, Poppy, do you have any last words of wisdom for us on this topic? Well, if you are seeing marks in the eye, don't panic. If you think that your animal is having a serious veterinarian emergency, of course, go to your vet. If you think there's vision loss or, or some infection, of course, go to your vet. But if it's just superficial marks that you're seeing streaks, like squiggly lines across your animal's eye and they seem to be in Okay health, they're not stressed out, then this is something that might be really fun for you to gauge and hopefully prevent your animal for going down that road that we can be ahead of time. I haven't had animals that were on like Prozac, things like that, that we were able to help manage better, and it definitely showed up in the eye. A lot of people don't give me much history, they just want to see what I read in the eye. And I'll be like, Wow, your dog’s really stressed. Like how would you know that? Like it's super easy. It's so nice to not only see health challenges, but their behavior too right? Behavior. Absolutely. And you can read the eye and like reduce your stress load. If you're, you know, we'll have a conversation about what do you think is stressing your dog and is there a way we can manage that better? So yeah. Well, Poppy, we are about to wrap up where, but where can everybody find out more information about you and your practice, which is Holistic Animal Insights. Krista, thank you. It's www.equinealt-hai.com. So my first business was all about horses, Equine Alternatives, and then I rolled into a broader range pet space, and that was the creation of Holistic Animal Insights. That is my website. I do have a booking link there, but the discount code on there so use the only way you can get that discount code is to be listening today. SOCIAL MEDIA FB: https://www.facebook.com/holisticanimalinsights/ IG: @holistic_animal_insights_ TikTok: @holistic_animal_insights  That's right. Well, I encourage everybody to learn more about this, I know that I have had my quote unquote, eyes opened by you, Poppy. Just I am so grateful that you shared this information and that you are a sponge and continued learner in this space. So I just want to thank you for all that you do and for sharing. Well, thank you for having me on, but also your passion to just keep keep the dog wagging. That's right. It's all about education, isn't it? We don't know what we don't know. Exactly. And nobody knows at all. So it's a collective collaborative effort between your vets and your holistic practice nurse, or your trainers, your diet, everything to make that healthy dog live as long as possible. I love it. Well, thank you, Poppy, for being with us. We appreciate you. Thank you and have a beautiful day. Thanks again to the team at Raised Right for being our monthly sponsor.  Raised Right does it right, with human-grade, complete and balanced, limited ingredient pet food.  Why not get some raised right for your cat or dog and save 20% on your first order by checking out RaisedRightPets.com/WagOutLoud.  Your pets will thank you! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hi everyone. This is Krista with Episode #179 On the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I have researched. And I've tried that I know, like and trust. Products that'll help your dog to thrive. So just go to wagoutloud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well. It's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. How a dog reacts to dairy products depends on how much lactose is in the food. So the higher the amount of lactose, the greater the risk of digestive upset. So if your dog has issues with dairy from cow's milk, maybe try giving them products made from goat milk, which is more digestible and lacks the complex proteins that are often associated with allergies. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello dog lovers, and thank you for joining Sandi Krucik-vanBommel and I today as we discuss the topic of new tricks for old dogs: cannabis for the golden years. Sandi, welcome to the show. Thank you, Krista. So glad to be here. Well, I'm excited to have you because I know that we have a lot to learn. So why don't you first introduce yourself and share what led you to become a veterinary cannabis counselor? Well, I'd love to share my story that, unfortunately, started out to be quite tragic, but ended up with a gift. So my family and I were in a high speed collision in 2019. And when I say my family, that included all of our dogs, and one of our senior girls, had sustained some injuries that unfortunately, couldn't be treated with conventional medicine. And my veterinarian who is very alternative had suggested that we try CBD. And in doing so, I started my journey on trying to find a product and dosing and navigating through the space at the time. And I felt very overwhelmed. And it wasn't an easy process. And so I thought as a veterinary professional and being in this world, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I can't imagine how pet parents must be feeling. And so that led me to finding a way to be certified as a veterinary cannabis counselor. Okay. Well, I was surprised to read that roughly 50% of dog owners in the US actually give their dogs CBD. I thought that would be lower. But I'm pretty encouraged about that. But of course, you and I both know, that doesn't mean that they are all giving the highest quality, correct dosage, you know, all of the above. So, before we dive into cannabis for our senior dogs, can you explain what exactly is the endocannabinoid system? Because to me, it kind of was more prevalent on the scene maybe five to seven years ago. So what is it and what functions of the body does it actually regulate? What is the Endocannabinoid System? Yes, they're actually right on on target in the sense that the endocannabinoid system or the endogenous cannabinoid system has been really gaining some traction in research and discovering it's importance. So we just call it the ECS system for short, but all mammals and that includes us have this internal regulatory system that produces molecules whose functions are to bring balance within the body's internal environment, and we call that homeostasis. So think of it as an internal regulatory system that helps along with so many processes in the body. So we know that the ECS system is always functioning in the background. Because of that, it is responsible for many processes, such as mood, pain, memory, stress, digestion, sleep. So, you know, those are just a few selections. But as you can see with there being so many that does translate to how marketing does possess cannabis or CBD, as most people know, it is so beneficial for so many medical conditions and health conditions. Right. Well, speaking of which, when your clients come to you, with their senior dogs, what would you say, are the issues that can be treated with CBD. What Can Cannabis Treat in Our Older Dogs? I would say I have about three to four, the first one being osteoarthritis being rooted in pain and inflammation. And most of the time, you know, our, our pet parents don't want to see their their dogs in pain, they see them starting to slow down not being able to do things that they used to do. And so in that is always rooted pain and inflammation like osteoarthritis. So we are able to again, modulate the responses that our pets have as a result of influencing with cannabis products in taking down that inflammation, and then as we see their pain improve, and of course, then their mobility improves. The second one I see is what we know as canine cognitive dysfunction. And so think of that as like our doggy Alzheimer's or dementia. Changes that are relating to changing the brain and aging and the cells dying. And we also get beta amyloid proteins building up which interferes with some of the nerve function. So when that happens, we see these behavior changes start to manifest. And as such, the dog might be pacing, or up all night, sleeping all day, being disoriented, having vocalization during the night. So these are all things that really can start to see improvement with using cannabis. And we see that happening as a result of these changes that are happening internally that then can be showing us their ways externally. And then the last or second to last would be just the anxiety that happens with those cognitive changes. So you know, as you have eluded to when we start to see some of the dogs maybe not seeing as well, or where we see them not hearing as well, that brings them anxiety to not be able to take in their world as they normally would. And so then we start to be able to use cannabis for ways of modifying the anxiety. And then of course, lastly was the some of those immune modulated diseases like the big C and the pain that's associated with it as well. And you were talking about cognitive issues. Have you seen any studies on sundowners syndrome? CBD for Sundowner’s? Yes. And I have had several clients come to me with their dogs that have sundowner’s. And we've had some remarkable results. These are dogs that go from not sleeping at all during the night, or very little, as well as a lot of vocalization, restlessness, distress, and going to now where they are sleeping through the night, where they are more settled. And it really does turn things around for the entire family because when the pets aren't sleeping, usually the pet parents aren't sleeping either. And so it really brings back that quality of life for the family, not just for the pets themselves. Absolutely. Well, I know we're focusing on our older dogs in this segment, but would you recommend CBD also earlier in life as a preventative, and if so, what is a good age to start? CBD As a Preventative? I haven't really experienced that in anecdotal results or in studies. As I've been going through this process of, of helping pet parents. If we have an endocannabinoid system that is working well, and it's efficient and it is performing as it should be, we really should have our body be well balanced. It's really only needing to supplement in with our phyto cannabinoids, our plant based cannabinoids that need to be intersecting to some of the pieces where we start to see that balance be out of disease what I would call it, Disease but not necessarily a disease process. So essentially, when we have those medical conditions start to manifest symptoms, then that tells us it may be time to intervene with cannabis. Right. Well, you brought up a good point you mentioned cannabinoids. And I personally hear some different terms in this industry. And I was hoping you could set me and maybe others straight. So what is the difference between cannabinoids, flavonoids, and terpenes? What do each of those terms mean? What is the difference between cannabinoids, flavonoids, and terpenes? We could start with the term cannabinoids. Those are the molecular compounds that are naturally occurring in the cannabis plant. They live in what are known as the trichomes of the plants. And we call them phyto cannabinoids because they come from plants or plant derived. And so we know that they really are more than 100 compounds that have been discovered now in the cannabis plant. So there's a lot more research to come. And they each bring therapeutic value. The next would be our flavonoids, these are phytonutrients that not only do they bring flavor, and the way we experience the plants, through our senses, but they also act as a defense mechanism for the plants. So essentially protecting bacteria, insects and reproduce their their aroma, so that you know they too have therapeutic properties. And then that brings us to our terpenes I like to assimilate terpenes like essential oils of the plant. So for example, when we speak of lavender plants, we know they have a distinctive smell, and to that are there relaxation and calming properties. And that is coming from the specific terpene Linalool. And so Linalool is actually one of the terpenes that can also be in cannabis plants. And so they give that distinctive aroma. They do have some flavor components as well. But again, additional therapeutic potential. So when we combine all of these three components in a product, for example, we then have what is called the entourage effect. And the way I like to produce an analogy to understanding that is thinking of many hands make for light work. So in the example of making chicken soup, you can have chicken and noodles, herbs, vegetables, chicken broth. You let that simmer for a while. And it brings you all of the values all of the components to that soup. And high nutritional value as opposed to just making a chicken soup with chicken and chicken stock. So when you bring those all together, you get the best nutritional value. Just like where you bring them all together in a cannabis product. You bring forward the best therapeutic potential. Well said, Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense now. Thank you. You're welcome. Well, Sandi we are at a point where we are going to take a quick sponsor break. So let us take this onward when we get right back hold on everybody. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we're back speaking with Sandi and she's giving us so much great information on how to treat our senior dogs with cannabis. So Sandi, you just explained cannabinoids, flavonoids and terpenes. Thank you for that great explanation. When we're talking about our senior dogs. One of the issues that I think of is incontinence. And I know this is a great example of why we have to be so careful with dosing. Because if they're given too much CBD their incontinence episodes could actually worsen. Can you tell us how you actually dose your different patients and clients and how, what factors do you even take into account? Dosing This is a really important point that you bring forward, Krista, because cannabis dosing is so much different than our pharmaceutical. It's not as if we're giving, for example, you know, one table twice a day like we would be directed for a pharmaceutical. Cannabis response. If you really unique to each individual, whether it be a human or a pet, it really comes down to that endocannabinoid system response. And we know that it is so unique to each individual. So for example, you and I could be on the same product for even the same medical condition. And we will seem to be on two very different doses based on our unique ECS system. So where I help pet parents move through that dosing parameter, to really stay together for a three month time frame so that we can essentially find what I call that sweet spot for best therapeutic potential. So that we can start low, go slow and work them up through monitoring and having them track responses, how their pet is responding and able to get right to where we need to be for dosing. Okay, one thing I have a question about, because I've heard as far as how you should give, you know, what, what way is the best way to give CBD to your dog so that it's bioavailable. So I've heard Yes, you can put it in the food. But maybe they don't get as many of the benefits as if you apply it directly to their gums, but they don't really like that either. So what is your suggestion on how to actually give CBD to our dogs. Best Way to Administer When I'm working with pet parents, I have this discussion with them to understand how they feel they would get the best compliance from their pet. So it really is a unique way to administer the cannabis, whether it be directly in the mouth or given with Food. We do know however, that cannabis is better absorbed when there is food in the stomach. So for example, may that be that we put a small segment of foods with the cannabis and offer it to the pet versus just directly onto the mucosa is really an individual process. But what we don't want to do is put that oil into their regular food, into their regular meal. Because some pets don't particularly love the smell or the taste. And then we start running into food aversion issues. And we don't ever want that to be, you know, a place where the pet doesn't want to eat. So essentially, meaning just taking and portioning out part of their meal to allow them to have it separately, giving it on a treat. giving it with something that they really like. Or if a pet is very compliant. Of course you can give it directly into the mouth as well. All right, good advice and Sandi are there. I know there's lots of studies. And we're learning every single day on the benefits of cannabis. But are there any studies that you would like to just mention on the benefits? Studies? Well, to be honest, you know, there are just so many studies ongoing now. And that's the beauty of this industry is that it is gaining a lot, a lot more momentum. And so we have recent studies that talk about dosing that talk about responses, and ways they are now being studied. Versus just anecdotal responses. This is really how this whole process usually starts with research is anecdotal stories and responses. And so it is almost difficult to keep up on the research, because there is so much going on now, but in a good way, in that we're really discovering, and so what are buying some of the things that we already knew? That's great. And in addition, so we are focusing, obviously, on senior dogs, but all of this really applies to all dogs. So we went over arthritis issues, meaning joint inflammation, pain, you talked about anxiety. But there are other benefits, like improving digestion and reducing GI distress. How would CBD help in those areas? Other Benefits There are two ways that it really does modulate and that is improving not only the physiology, but also the function of the GI tract. So for example, coming back to some of the properties of those cannabinoids and as well with the terpenes. We have anti inflammatory responses that happen when we activate the receptors and their enzymes. And these are also present in the digestive tract. So it acts to help with motility, protecting the gastric mucosa, inhibiting some of the gastric secretions. But, you know, a lot of times with long term use of NSAIDs, non steroidal anti inflammatories, we do have mucosal damage that is occurring. And so by using cannabis, we can start to improve some of that physiology by coming back to the digestive tract healing and protecting with gastric mucosal secretions. So it means that we're again coming back to the root. And we're essentially able to not just put a bandaid on but change some of that physiology and the functioning so that we can get improved responses. Nice. And did I read that CBD also minimizes nausea, and it also helps stimulate appetite. Yeah, that's right. And so that a lot comes from where we see some of the receptors that are in the brain in the central nervous system that also do influence some of the again naturally occurring cannabinoids such as anandamide, that, now we see elevation of that, cannabinoid, we see that this is known as the bliss molecule. So we see some of these changes happening where we have more serotonin produced. And we get to see these responses, changing the way that we have the pet parents responding with, as you say appetite, or how they are processing and feeling. And on top of it, I know it helps us and dogs sleep better. So it's pretty amazing. Like a miracle plant, the miracle plant. And are there any side effects at all to CBD? Side Effects? Well, we do have conditions. so things like where we have cardiac disease or we have impaired liver function. We do have to be cautionary in those circumstances. And again, another reason for proper product selection, starting with a lower dose, but also, sometimes it is the carrier oils that can cause some side effects. So commonly we see vomiting and diarrhea. Essentially, it's not the cannabis that’s causing those, those side effects. It’s more The carrier oils that the cannabis is formulated with. And then as well, sometimes when pet parents are using higher dosages, we can also see some side effects as well Okay. And really quickly since we're about to wrap up, when we are looking at selecting the best CBD oil for our dogs, what exactly should we consider? How to Shop for CBD The importance is to be, of course, mindful of looking into that product a little deeper, where you want to know if they do third party lab testing for safety measures to know exactly what is in that product. Also to be doing that they produce what's called a Certificate of Analysis, which gives us all of those results. Transparency is very important. And of course, the source of where their ingredients come from. Essentially, organic is primary, but always looking at those ingredients are very, very important. And then knowing exactly how that product has been processed, because there are different options of processing, and we want to be sure that it's something that is safe for the pet Okay, all good suggestions. Well, Sandi, I know that you wanted to make an offer to the listeners. So why don’t you tell them about it. OFFER I would be happy to offer the listeners a complimentary initial assessment where we can dive a little deeper into their questions that they may have about their specific pet and any medical conditions that they may be questioning about whether cannabis is appropriate. And to this if they have curiosity questions if they want to learn more about cannabis and how they can use it for their pets, and I'm happy to offer a complimentary Zoom discussion together. That is amazing. Well, thank you for that. Sandi. I will put the link all of your links in the show notes so that people have direct access. So Sandi, where can everyone find out more information about you and your company Inspired Pet Wellness? Yes, so my website is inspiredpetwellness.com. And my email address is happytohelp@inspiredpetwellness.com. And, again, I would be happy to connect with any questions that they may have. Instagram: @inspiredpetwellness LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandi-krucik-van-bommel-rvt-84a45b210 Wow. Thank you, Sandi. Well, as we sign off today, do you have any parting words for us? From my experience, I would just like to offer the opportunity for pet parents to become cannabis curious. We do know that from the recreational market, there have been a lot of stereotypes, but to understand that it does have this whole other perspective of how it can be therapeutic, how it can be such an impressive plant to to help you through a lot of issues that we see in our senior pets and just to be cherishing, those those golden years but knowing that there are opportunities for other options and ways that they can help enjoy their pets even longer. I love it. Well, one thing we didn't cover, not only can you take CBD internally, but it also works topically as well. And I would imagine, especially for our older guys that have lumps and bumps that might come in handy as well. 100%. And often what I do is I will combine both applications. So the pet may be taking the products orally but at the same time we're using it topically as well. Miracle plant. Absolutely. Well, Sandi, thank you so much for being here today. And hopefully a lot of our listeners will take you up on your very generous offer for the free consults. So I want to thank you for being here. And thank you listeners for wanting to do better for your dogs. We'll catch you next time. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello there this is Krista with Episode #178 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Think about this. The sound frequencies that are produced during storms can actually be painful to your dog's ears. And the static electricity that accumulates in their fur due to any change of pressure can also be really unpleasant for them. So if your dog freaks out during storms, they're not just unsure of what's happening, but they may be experiencing a painful physical reaction as well. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr.  Edward Bassingthwaighte is known globally as The Healing Vet. Through his own recovery from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Lyme, he explored holistic medicine and energy healing. He is the founder of a profoundly healing bodywork modality for pets, people and horses - the Whole Energy Body Balance™ Method. Hello, dog lovers, thank you so much for being here today. I am so honored to have Dr. Edward Bassingthwaighte on the show. And he's going to talk about Silent Pain, which is a problem that 53% of pet parents actually miss. And I learned about Dr. Edward, probably three or four months ago, I think he was a guest on the Dog Gone Calm Club with Lisa Spector. And I was just so fascinated about his work and just had to have him on the Show. So Dr. Edward, thank you so much for being with us today. You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be here. And it's really exciting to be able to share this information about Silent Pain because it's something that's really not known in the veterinary industry. And then of course, the general public have little or no idea about it too. Well, I'm happy to share it with all of our listeners today. So why don't we start with you introducing yourself and why are you known as the healing vet? Well, probably because I thought it was pretty cool brand name. It is a cool brand name. Because that brand name really is the essence of of what I'm about which is not only working one on one with people to help them give their animals the best possible life when it comes to holistic health care and vitality and, and longevity but also empowering pet parents to take their pets’ wellbeing into their own two hands. So I'm I'm deeply involved in online education in teaching people how to understand what holistic healthcare is how to implement it. And also I'm the creator of the Whole Energy Body Balance method, which is a profoundly healing, neuro fascial body work and energy work modality for pets, people and horses that are available for everyday people who want to be home practitioners and for for pet wellness professionals who want to be certified. Well, you've got so many great courses, you're helping so many people and animals. Why don't we talk about I know, especially with dogs, that if they have pain, they most of the time like to hide it. So when they actually show signs of pain, isn't it that it's pretty advanced when we can see that they're in pain? How to Notice That Your Dog is in Silent Pain Well, yes and no, I think probably a good place to start is to talk about the difference between acute pain and chronic pain. Acute Pain is usually an injury to one part of the body, there's usually an abrupt increase in pain. And acute pain is super easy to see. There's a rapid change in the animal. There's obvious symptoms like a lameness or a sudden change in behavior becoming withdrawn, obviously unhappy, that sort of thing. So then that gives a lot of people a false sense of security that they are always going to be able to see any kind of pain in their animals, but unfortunately, chronic pain often develops slowly so that any changes if they happen are outside the ability of the human to see them. And another thing about chronic pain, soft tissue pain in particular, which is the most common cause of silent pain that I see is that it's often throughout the whole body. So therefore, there's no one part of the body like with a sore foot, you'll get a lameness. It's easy to see if you've got a dog with gastroenteritis, you'll get vomiting or diarrhea. And these symptoms are very specific to the problem so they're easy to see and pick up whereas chronic pain, chronic soft tissue pain in particular, what happens is that you get animals that might have a gradual change over months or even years. Maybe they get a little slower and stiffer and people just think oh, wow, you know, they're just old. That's normal. Shouldn't we don't need to worry about it? Whereas in reality, you can have animals with incredible levels of pain, chronic pain that they're existing with, but it's sucking a lot of the joy and, and life and connection out of their experience of, of living in relationship with their humans. Yeah. Well, how did you come to realize that the statistic is 53% of our dogs are living in pain? So some years ago, I missed really awful neck pain in my own little dog. That triggered me into getting curious about how many other people might be missing silent pain in their pets. And what I did was I did a small informal clinical study where I had 63 People come in the door with new dogs that I’d never seen before. And before I looked at their dogs and examined their dogs, I asked them, you know, do you think your dog has got any pain? And 53% of them said no, but when I got my hands on the dogs, the dogs had significant, really significant pain going on in their, in their body, soft tissue, chronic pain. And how long ago was this realization for you? Well, I realized a long time ago that there was a lot of undiagnosed neck and back pain. It's probably about 26 years ago, when I, I ran into another vet who worked with horses necks. He would take horses that had a falling lameness that they could not find a reason for, with no blocks, X rays, or that sort of thing. He'd released the vertebrae in the neck and the lameness would go away. So that was from nerve root compression. Now, that was all news to me, because I've never been taught a thing about that at university. So my next thought was, well, what about dogs and cats? They have necks and backs. So I started, you know, feeling with deeper into the body and with with more curiosity about what might be going on through the neck and spine. And pretty quickly, I started finding a whole lot of pain, tension, dysfunction, that before I started exploring more deeply into the body, I was missing. Now that's developed over the years, then I realized that there's the soft tissue, the neuro fascial tissues, throughout the body, store and hold pain and trauma. And they're also involved in anxiety and stuff like that. So it's been a kind of an evolution, but it's only about six or seven years ago, maybe eight years ago that I missed really awful neck pain in my own dog. And that's when I realized that, you know, I thought like a lot of people probably listening to this show right now probably think that they can that their pets will tell them when they have pain. And you know, I had probably a bit of veterinary arrogance running. I know veterinarians are a little bit prior to that kind of thing. But I thought I could look at my dog and tell when he had pain. Turns out, he had a very, very painful neck. He had a fall on the steps, which my wife actually saw, but he got up, shook himself off and seemed okay, so she didn't think to tell me, then a small change in behavior three weeks later, made me get my hands on him. And I found that he was in agony, but he was still not showing any signs to even my highly trained eyes. Wow. So this soft tissue pain that you're talking about? What is the average age that in your mind, dogs start to suffer the silent pain? When Do Most Dogs Start Feeling Pain? Look, it can vary. Most dogs by the time they get somewhere to between five to eight years of age, you're going to have built up a significant amount of soft tissue pain. But at the moment, I'm working with an 18 week old when I first saw it, it's an 18 week old puppy. Rhodesian Ridgeback puppy who's already got incredible amounts of pain in his body. Now, whether that's from some kind of birth injury or some kind of puppy accident or whatever. So you just don't know even younger dogs can if they've had a bad crash when they're little puppies and crying, like playing like a mad thing can have a legacy of silent pain. I've seen a lot of dogs that after you know the routine, normal desexing operations are left with a legacy of soft tissue pain. You know, male dogs in the groin area, female dogs through the abdominal cavity. So there's a lot of different things that can can leave that kind of history or legacy and that gets locked up in the soft tissue in the neuro fascial network in the animal's body. Well, why don't we break this down more? Because you say that silent pain is made up of three different areas. So there's physical, there's anxiety, and there's trauma? Can you unpack each of those? Three Areas of Silent Pain Well, physical pain is soft tissue pain that is in the soft tissues of the body now, particularly in what I call the neuro fascial network, which is the connective tissues of the body. And the connective tissues of the body have very high concentrations of nervous tissue in them. Especially a lot of sensory awareness. So the fascia is everywhere in the body. It is the scaffolding or structure of every other organ in the body on every scale of dimension. If you look at an x ray, you'll never see soft tissue pain on an x ray, it doesn't show up on imaging, which is another reason why I believe vets miss it. I mean, vet's have a knowledge and skills gap when it comes to feeling into the body to find this kind of pain. It's a particular skill that anyone can learn in a matter of weeks. But if it's like riding a bicycle, if you've never learned how to do it, you can't do it. So soft tissue pain, and neck and back pain there's quite a lot of neck and back pain is is actually soft tissue pain with muscle spasm, or nerve root compression, that sort of thing. So that's a big part, then trauma. So any animal that's got a traumatic history, a lot of that mental, emotional, and physical patterns of tension from the trauma are locked up in the physical structures and, and the emotions and, and the energetics of the body. So then when you do the neuro fascial bodywork and you release the physical patterns that are tied up with trauma out of the body, you can also have significant healing of the mental emotional side of things. And then trauma and anxiety are kind of similar in a way that in both trauma and anxiety, the nervous system is sensitized into a chronic state of unhealthy arousal. So there's this the animals are switched on to a low grade, or sometimes a high grade fight flight response, and they usually sensitized to trigger in a much higher levels of arousal very, very easily. So they then you know, begin to trigger a stimulus. And they go into a high orange or red zone very, very easily compared to a resilient, healthy dog that doesn't have trauma, or anxiety. Now, that has a double whammy, in that any kind of trauma and anxiety accelerates soft tissue pain development over time. And anxiety is bad for the nervous system, the immune system and a whole lot of other things. There's some of the Therapeutic Touch skills that we use the Whole Energy Body Balance method which are very powerful at causing a body level relaxation response, parasympathetic activation. So what happens then is that if you use these kinds of touch over time, you can move these anxious animals from this kind of chronic arousal, unhealthy arousal state into relaxation. If you work with these animals regularly, you know, day by day by day, over weeks and months, you can get very significant improvements in anxiety, sometimes quite rapid. For instance, I saw a dog called Clyde a few years ago who was a Staffy who had really severe separation anxiety. He was eating the house, when he was left alone. Two weeks of the whole family doing this body work with Clyde and I think he probably got 10 times as much body work as your average person would give their dog because the mother and both daughters just went to town on him. But two weeks later he was the destructive behavior was totally gone. He was fine to be left at home alone. And some days he was so chilled out about being home. He didn't get off his bed when his mom came home. So I think two things with anxiety. There's kind of four phases of anxiety. Two of them are easy to see people don't miss that's the fight one you get dogs that are reactive, lunging, barking, biting the flea, they're the dogs that running away hiding under things or bolting in the case of thunderstorms. But then you get the freeze, which a lot of people don't understand is actually anxiety when the animal goes still or become suppressed. And the fourth phase that a lot of people miss is the Fidget they're the ones that go nutso. Nutso, crazy jump all over. You don't listen to commands, that sort of thing. Wow, a lot of people are probably saying yeah, I recognize these symptoms. Dr. Edward we are at a spot where it's perfect for us to take a quick break. So we are going to get into this therapeutic touch and how it works when we get right back. So hold on tight, everybody. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Well, I don't know about you guys, but this is just fascinating to me. So we are going to continue our conversation with Dr. Edward and we are talking about Silent Pain. And yes, 53% of us are missing this you guys. So you're probably thinking, okay, so how do I advocate for my dog and make them feel better? So as we left in the first half, Dr. Edwards was talking about therapeutic touch and how it helped Clyde in just two weeks. So why don't we uncover this a little bit more? You mentioned that a lot of the silent pain is in the neck and the back? Where exactly are we talking, the entire spine? Or is it the base of the neck? Where Does Most of Our Dogs’ Pain Reside? It depends on the animal, you'll get one one dog or cat that I get my hands on that, you know might have an incredibly painful neck, then another one might be more painful in the thoracic. And you might get a third animal that's more painful in the lumbar or you might get some that are painful everywhere in the back and spine. And I think the spine really is the core of good health in the animals. So any any compromise to the spine is going to affect vitality, energetic integrity and a whole lot of other stuff. So I always focus in on the spine, but there's also the whole body, the neuro fascial network is everywhere in the body. So you need to have a kind of really whole body approach to get the best results. And when we talk about therapeutic touch, we're not talking about canine massage, are we? This is different. What is Therapeutic Touch? Yeah, the Whole Energy Body Balance is different. It's a neuro fascial bodywork. So we're focused on the fascia on the connective tissues and the nervous system. That's that's what we're interacting with with touch. I've never actually trained in any hands on modality because 26 years ago, when I started finding neck and back pain, and then wanting to do something to help the animals, I started playing around with movement and pressure and various qualities of touch pretty quickly found that animals responded to that. And we got some nice changes and happier, more playful, more active pets. So what what I share with the world in the whole energy body balance method is a really comprehensive toolkit of different therapeutic touch skills, neuro fascial bodywork skills, that I've developed over 26 years of working hands on with with 10s of 1000s of animals. So it comes from direct experience, it comes from the animals teaching me what works for them. And we teach a really broad range of skills ranging from very gentle, subtle work like cranial sacral type connections, through to really powerful, but gentle release and mobilization of core structures of the body core structures and tissues, mainly around the spine. And these courses are amazing for so many different reasons, not only are you healing your dog, you're healing yourself and the bond that you have with your dog. You know, some people might think it's woowoo thinking, Oh, I don't know if I have that energy healing in my body to be able to do this for my dog. But we do. And we just have to unlock it right? Anyone Can Do It Yeah, I think in our society, a lot of that this kind of stuff is actively denigrated, and a lot of us shut down a lot of ourselves in terms of our empathic and natural healing abilities at a pretty early age so that we we fit in to society, and we get what we need emotionally. But anyone can learn how to do this, if you've got two hands and a loving heart and a willingness to put in some time and learn. Most of our students see really beautiful changes in their pets within within weeks of starting the training. Yep. And knowing all this. I know a lot of people that let their dogs sleep in the bed, jump off of the bed, jump off of the couch. What are your thoughts on that impact day in day out? Well, I think you've got to let your dog live their life too. I think you take all care that you can and as they get older, perhaps you put in a ramp or steps or whatever for them to get on and off things. But I'm not a I'm not a wrap your dog in cotton wool kind of person. I think dogs need to have fun and live their life and you minimize high impact activities and you take care too, if you learn how to do this kind of body work, then you learn how to feel in the body and you won't miss things. Now, some animals can develop silent pain quite quickly, if they have an accident, or if they, you know, I think we've all had the experience of waking up after sleeping in a funny position. And our whole body’s all spasmed up and painful. And the same kind of thing can happen for our for our pets. So if you do regular hands on work with your animals, not only do you strengthen your bond and relationship with your pets, beyond what you probably think is possible, and I've had a lot of people come into trainings, and at the beginning, I'll often say this now look at me, I see them thinking, you silly vet, I've got the best relationship in the world with my pet. what are you thinking? It can't get any better. But nearly always, at the end of the training, those people come up to me and say, You know what? I didn't believe you when you said things could get better in terms of my relationship with my pets, but it absolutely has and very quickly. So there's there's a whole lot of benefits to this kind of touch based communication therapy connection work with your animals. Absolutely. Well, I would think that not only your average dog, your average family dog, but also the canine athletes would really benefit from this body work, right? Canine Athletes Oh, absolutely. Because if you have an assistance dog, then they have a lot more wear and tear and impact on their body than your average household pet, or most household pets, unless you got someone who's got a ball addiction and the owner doesn't realize that throwing the ball all day is bad for the dog, they can get a lot of a impact injury too . So the earlier you learn how to do this, and the more often you do this kind of work with competition dogs, then the better not only do you prevent the development of silent pain and problems and make the animal stronger and better balanced, but they can they can compete better, because they've got more, they're more imbalanced, they're more aligned, their bodies are healthier. And the other really good thing about this kind of work for your competition dogs is that it helps them learn how to anchor into that state of healthy relaxation. So then you can engage drive, while you still have 100% of cognitive capacity online. Now I see a lot of agility dogs, when they get out to the start line there they are definitely in a state of arousal where they're not 100% able to connect with understand and respond to the communication coming from the handler. You know, if you can, you can get a dog that that can engage all of their drive and be in that healthy orange zone where all their cognitive capacity’s still online, then you're gonna get a dog that will do cleaner, faster runs, because they're listening. They're responsive, they're 100% connected to you and your directions. Yes. And your method of this Therapeutic Touch. It doesn't exist anywhere else, you are the pioneer and thankful for you to be teaching this to not only pet parents, but other professionals that want to become practitioners Correct? Well, I would say that I am one of the pioneers, there's certainly other therapeutic touch modalities out there. There's the pet massage guys in the US that are probably the true pioneers of of massage in pets and and you know, I can't remember his name but he was an inspiration to me and his book, I read and got some lovely information out of that. You've got T Touch you've got Bowen you've got a lot of other modalities but what I've noticed about what we have to offer is that it's there's there's a more comprehensive, broader, deeper range of skills compared to anything else that I've come across. And another thing that we do a lot in whole energy body balance is communicating with the animals understanding their nonverbal communication, expressing nonverbal communication, teaching animals how to yield to pressure in a healthy way so that they can be soft on the lead, not pull on the lead so that you can reposition them while you're working with them. Ask them to move over and they'll go yep, I can move over for you. And another thing that I teach a lot of is, is boundaries, healthy boundaries, how to have a healthy conversation with your dog about okay, I got personal space. Let's have a bit of a talk about how and when I'm going to invite you into my personal space and when I might like to ask you to stay out of my personal space for a little while which humans are diabolically awful at doing in a healthy way probably 90% of the time. Yep. Well, you were talking about what your course offers and you have an amazing offer for our listeners. So do you want to tell them about your Masterclass? FREE OFFER Yeah, we offer a FREE masterclass, which is a two part masterclass. The first part is an information session where we, we spend a good hour going into depth talking about Silent Pain, what it is why it's easy to miss, red flags, subtle signs to look out for what you need to do to make sure that you never miss all that pain, how to treat it and prevent it. Then we have a second hands on session where you you will come along and learn some skills out of the whole energy body balance method, you'll learn the beginnings of how to feel in the body to find some silent pain and a beautiful skill called Webb Loving Touch, which is a gentle connecting relaxing, therapeutic touch interaction with your animals. And I did both of these free master classes and you learn so much just there. And I unfortunately was not able to finish the entire course. Because as many of you know, we lost Winston back in January. But we are picking up our new puppy Dutton this week. And of course, he will know everything about WEBB method once we get him home and situated. So I know that the WEBB method is a healing somatic bodywork modality. Can you explain what is somatic mean? What Does Somatic Mean? Well, some somatic really means the body Soma in Latin is the body. So one of the key things and one of the points of difference for the whole energy body balance is that the first thing that we teach you is nothing to do with your animals, but everything to do with you. So there's an internal practice for the human for you, which is the WEBB somatic embodiment and energy connection practice. Now an interesting thing happens when you start to come into bring your awareness into your physical body and be present here in this, this this earth suit. I like to call it that we inhabit on this planet. The more you do that, in my experience, the happier you get. And if you've got trauma and other anxiety and other problems, if you can have the will and courage to come into your body and be present with healthy discomfort over time, then you'll get improvements and anxiety and you'll slowly unwind and resolve trauma we've we've had a number of clients of our students say that well, you know, I think this training has actually been more for me than my dogs. It’s been incredible for my dogs. But we've had a lot of people with anxiety and other issues, see big improvements in themselves with this work too. Incredible. Well, I am going to have the link in the show notes for everybody that you should check out again, it's a FREE silent pain masterclass that I think everybody needs to sign up for. And this is healing, chronic pain, anxiety and trauma, not only in our pets, and ourselves, but you can also do work on horses as well. So Dr. Edward, where can everybody find out more information about you, your work as the Healing Vet, and your modality, this whole program, the Whole Energy Body Balance method? Well just come along to www.wholeenergybodybalance.com You drop in there, you can search for the Healing Vet on Facebook, we've got a pretty active page on there as well. But that www.wholeenergybodybalance.com is really the heart of where we live online. Social Media URLs or Tags          Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_healing_vet/          Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheHealingVet Great. Well, again, everybody, all of these links will be in the show notes. And I encourage you to sign up for the masterclass for sure. And as we sign off today, Dr. Edward, do you have any parting words for us? Get your hands on your pets. Now, you know, just one thing you can start doing is getting your hands on your pets and just slowing down the speed of your movement of your hands on your pets. Most humans use quite a fast hand speed which is stimulating. So just slow down you just you know you're the pets that your pet loves the most slower down to a quarter or an eighth or a 16th of your normal hand speed. And you'll notice that your animals will start relaxing much more strongly if you do that. And if you do that every day for five or 10 minutes, even that will make a big difference. Beautiful. That's easy enough. Well thank you, Dr. Edward for all of your amazing work. And I'm excited for our listeners to check out everything that you have to offer. Thanks for having me. It's been a blast. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code wol10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone this is Krista with Episode #177 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Hey, have you checked out all the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched. And I've tried that I know like and trust, and these are products that will help your dog to thrive. Just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the Trusted Brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. Since we just bought our new puppy Dutton home, there's a lot of potty training happening here in this house. Generally during the night puppies can hold it for as many hours as their age in months plus one hour. So that means that a three month old puppy should be able to hold it for approximately four hours. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello there dog lovers, and welcome to another educational episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And with me today is Rose Seemann, and she's here to chat about keeping dog poop in the loop. Rose, I first want to thank you for being with us today. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? Krista? I am good. Before we kick this off, why don't you introduce yourself and share with us how did your passion for dog waste disposal really start? Oh, it was an odd thing. I was having lunch in a park. right near where I worked. This was maybe Oh 15 years ago, I'm retired now. And I saw people picking up all this dog poop. And I was reading a book called Natural Capitalism, which talked about the ability or how we should have the ability to recycle absolutely everything and return it back to nature, starting at the beginning, kind of like Cradle to Cradle. And something just clicked and I thought, look at these people picking up all this organic stuff. You know, I wonder if they sort it. Well, that was silly. They throw it in the trash, and it goes into the, you know, into the landfill. I thought there must be an awful lot of it. Because I'm sitting here just watching and I'm already seeing an awful lot of it go into that bin there. So I went back to the office. And I started thinking how many how much dog poop is there must be a lot. And then I started doing a little research. And the more I learned the more horrified kind of it I was because there are tons and tons and tons of it going into landfills with plastic bags. And it it also, you know, it emits methane, which is not good. And then I got more and more into it. And I realized that there's as much dog waste going into landfills every year in the United States. There's enough to fill 109 football fields with end zones 10 feet deep every year going into landfills. And I thought geez, my state, I found out the state puts in like any number of the weight of it is is kind of like several, you know, Washington Monuments. I mean, it's incredible. And it's actually kind of 12% of residential waste. Okay, you know, my research and my thinking got me into it. Yeah. Well, to put some statistics behind what you're talking about, I read that a dog excretes between .5 - .75 pounds of waste per day. And one gram of dog waste contains about 23 million coliform bacteria, which is nearly twice the amount found in the equivalent of human waste. And in the United States, pet dogs produced 21 point 2 billion pounds of dog poop each year. That is a problem. It's amazing because we're all worried about how many straws we throw out. Yes or how many Cigarette cigarette butts we throw out things like that coffee stirrers, even shoes and textiles. I mean, when you if you have a dog or two, you know that that's really heavy. If you collect it at home in your, you know, your garbage bag, more than certainly a lot of stuff that you throw out. It's organic, and it can be recycled. Well, let's break this down. So many people, I think they think that if we leave dog waste, and don't even pick it up, oh, it's just gonna decompose naturally over time, and will actually serve as a natural fertilizer. Is that true Rose? Raw dog poop has all those horrible pathogens in it, if you just leave it there, and it rains, it could wash into storm sewers. And it could cause a lot of damage. I mean, they're reservoirs and lakes that are closed, that are near dog areas. So it can cause algae blooms that can kill, you know, aquatic animals. And then you can step on it. I mean, it's just not a pretty picture. And that stuff stays on your shoes, stays on kids shoes stays on dog paws and goes into your house. No, it has to be composted. It has to be processed before it's good for plants. It's just, it'll kill plants because it's too harsh. And does this have anything to do with what they're eating? Like in the wild, let's say wolves or wild dogs? Is it the same composition? Because they eat well, natural? No. And first of all, scat for wild animals is scattered all over the place with dogs. They're all it's all in the same place concentrated. But from what I learned that the when dogs eat more grain, they produce more poop. And when they eat meat, there's not as much of it. But as far as the composition. I'm not too sure about that. Right? Okay. So many of us use, let's say, the plastic grocery bag. And we think we're doing such a good thing because we are reusing these grocery bags for another purpose. But what about the bags that we use? And what happens in a landfill? Well, when you collect it in a bag, and it's probably better to reuse a bag than to actually buy a plastic bag. But when you throw those throw those in a landfill, they just sit there, nothing happens. They don't go back to the earth or anything like everything in the landfill. There's no air, and there's no sun and there's no moisture just kind of sits there. And eventually it kind of seeps the methane seeps out. Takes a long time. And of course, then you've got the plastic there. Right. So probably the best solution is to get certified compostable bags, and use those, even if it's going into a landfill, because at least you're supporting compostable bags. And eventually, if they get out, they're not going to be, you know, in the ocean or anything like that. And also, when you buy compostable bags, you're helping an industry The more people that buy compostable bags, the less expensive they're going to be eventually. So it's sort of an investment. But, you know, I would add that in Canada, there are any number of municipalities that actually compost their dog waste. With food scraps and yard waste, they just take it and compost that all or throw it into bio digesters, in which case many of them say that you need to use compostable bags or paper bags depending on their system. But in America that's so so rare. We are behind the times Rose. Yeah. And Australia's coming quite a bit ahead, too. I'm not quite sure what's going on in Europe. But you know, a lot of composters are just won't accept dog waste. You could mix it in with your yard waste. They say don't don't give it to us with your food scraps. Right. Well, you already told us about how it contaminates the water. And we know that waste can transmit diseases to both animals and humans. Because, you know, some of the illnesses that I can think of are from E coli, Salmonella, Leptospira, you know, all of that bacteria that is found in dog waste. And then another thing I think of is internal parasites. If you have dogs with any type of worms, and another dog comes into contact with that waist that's left behind. That could be an issue for the other dog. And if it gets on someone's skin as Little Rascals can penetrate skin, but if it's composted, if it's Biodigested, if it's tested, it can be fine compost to be used anywhere. It's just a matter if you know the process. Exactly. Well, let's talk about this because as you said, this is pretty new process and idea, I think. So you started the Enviro Pet Waste Network, which is a nonprofit. Can you tell us a little bit about that organization and what you're trying to do, and then let's really get into how to compost our dog's waste. Sure. The Enviro Pet Waste Network is a 501 C three, nonprofit, and it's only about a year and a half old. It's mostly right now, Canada, United States and Australia. We try to bring people together to share success stories, and to talk to one another and to educate people, very important to educate them about what kind of bags to use what they can do with their own dog waste, if, in fact, their community isn't doing anything, what they can do to advocate so that their community, you know, does some sort of solution for the whole community. For instance, here in Colorado, on the Front Range EnviroWagg, which is, which is a program of the Enviro pet waste, network, compost, tons of dog waste, you know, every month, from trail heads, and from dog parks and from dog daycare centers. And that's a community effort. So it can be done. There are two places in New York City, that are really running ahead right now with this. And the Enviro Pet Waste Network, you know, does videos, it connects people. People call and say what can I do for my own dog? What can we do for the community? And, you know, we put them in touch with people who have done it, so that they have good advice on how to both compost their own, and how to, you know, advocate for community composting or bio digestion. And what does that mean? Let's say a community wants to put this program in place this upcycling, as you call it, what does that look like is are there different stations than what we see now with just the plastic bags and, and a trash receptacle I guess you call it. Each one's a little different. But one of the things that they have in common is that they have separate trash bins, and dog waste only bins usually close to one another. Sometimes there are, you know, like you've seen these bins for recyclable landfill, you know, and dog waste would be one of the options. And you'd also have to supply people with either compostable bags or paper bags or pieces of paper or some sort of scoop so they can pick it up and throw it in there. Because the worst thing you can do is mingle plastic, or paper cups, or something else in there. You know, you want to have it be strictly dog waste. And you you're going to have to have signage, probably some sort of education program to start with, where, you know, people you may be university students who are in environmentalism, or staff, explain to people that you have to use the compostable bags, and they're right here. Don't bring your own plastic bag and do this unless you bring your own compostable bag and do it. It takes quite a bit of education. And then you know, the bins are collected. And they're taken to a place where they can be recycled, mostly composting facilities, but sometimes bio digestion, which are those, you know, those huge facilities that take everything and use a different process than than composting it's kind of like a cold process. But these places all kill the germs and the microorganisms that are that are bad. There's micro organisms in everything, you know, get anything pure. And if it's pure, nothing will grow in it. But you can't get it to the point where it can be used in landscaping and even agriculture if it tests alright. Well, Rose, I am going to stop you there because this is a perfect place to take a break and we will be right back and continue this very fascinating discussion. So hold tight everybody. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. All right, we're back with Rose Seemann. And we are talking about keeping poop in the loop. And I'm already learning so much rose. So we left off with you talking about how to compost dog waste. And I guess if we do it right in the front end, it doesn't sound like that hard of a process. Is that right? Am I missing something? It's actually a loop, it starts with the food. And, you know, regardless of what the it's just more difficult, there's more to pick up. I'm not talking about the dog's health. I'm simply talking about the end product, which people really don't want to talk about. Shitty subject, isn't it? Yeah, it is. So what really happens is at the end, if they if they eat a lot of grains and things, then that's a lot to pick up. And if they don't, then there's much less to pick up. And you can you can compost your dog's waste there lots of ways to do it, or you can bury it and plant something over top of it. There are all sorts of ways to do it. That doesn’t harm the soil? Not if you It depends how much property you have, for instance, there are dog runs and things they did they make trenches, people throw it in the trench, cover it with about a few inches of soil, leaves and stuff. And then you put some more in you can lasagna it and then in the end, you put about eight inches of nice soil on top, and then you can plant things, the roots will eventually go down and benefit from the dog poop at the bottom. Because by then it will have become, you know, nice and composty and good enough, it's not going to kill the plants, it's going to fertilize them. And how long would that take? It could take years. A year or two. But if you plant small plants at the top in the eight inches, it's going to take them a heck of a long time to get down to the dog poop. There are people who put it around trees and hedges and things I just bury it in pockets, being very careful not to disturb the roots. And then there are all these plastic things like doggy dooleys and you know, things that that you can put worms into and all that. But essentially you can you can dig holes and then bury it, plant grass over it, you know, whatever. But if you don't have the property, that's not one way to do it. Right. So what is composting? Let's say I have a backyard and I want to start composting, the waste? How would I even start? Are there things to buy? Would you compost it with other things or by itself? I don't know what's the best? Well, you could do it either way. Really, if you're going to use the compost, your normal compost, if you're a gardener, you have plants that you eat, you know, you would do it separately. You’d do the dog waste separately and you'd use the dog waste then you wouldn't mix you would you know you wouldn't use a dirty shovel from the dog waste and, and mix up the other compost you'd use separate kind of shovels and separate turning implements and use the regular compost on gardens that you eat. You could use the dog waste compost, or a combination of food waste, yard waste and dog waste as long as you don't use it on vegetables and edibles. And the problem with that is if you use dog waste compost in your edible garden, and some of the fruit or vegetables falls into some exposed compost and you go to wash it you may not get it all off. That's the problem. Because the the dog waste isn't going to go into the fruit or into the vegetable through its root. What will happen is you might drop it. And what about I think I read that there are bags and I don't know what they're made of that you can actually pick up the waste, bring it home and flush it. What are your thoughts on that? Those are flushable and you can do that. What the enviro pet waste network suggests is that you call your water treatment power plant and ask if it's okay Okay, okay, you're probably gonna say no, right? But it's worth a try. Okay. And Rose, I know that you sent me this really cool infographic with the seven steps on what we can do right now to move the needle in the right direction, can you go through those seven steps with us? Sure, this is from the Pet Poo Pocket Guide. And there's kind of a flowchart effect here, the book tells you what you can do, depending on how much time you have, how much property you have, how much effort you want to put into it. And the steps include composting, if you have a lot of property, well, maybe not even a lot of property I do and that ditch and it's fine. And it also, the other thing that you can do is vermicomposting. And you can do that in a container. And there are instructions on how you can do that. And you don't need a whole lot of property to do that you could do it like in your garage. And then there's Bokashi, which is using EMs, essential minerals. And then you micro organisms, it's kind of a long, involved process, but you can use Bokashi. And there are commercial systems that offer that. And you could find that it's on the internet, you can also do what's called Cold composting, which is just putting it somewhere and letting it sit and occasionally kind of throwing some soil on it. Or some soil or some leaves or sawdust, and then just kind of letting it sit. And that's kind of rotting. And that's if you don't want to do anything, and you've got a place to put it. It doesn't smell you just cover it up with some sawdust. And the other thing is flushing it, you can throw it down the toilet. There are alcohol based bags that you can use for that. But you have to be careful because if you have a big dog, you can just really have your whole flushing system be you know you'd need a plumber or something like that. You said that there's an Australian symbol that you should look for when choosing your compostable bags. Yeah, Australia and Europe have a specific kind of specific symbol that says that they're compostable. They have to be accredited compostable, and there There's also something called home compostable. These are ones that compost just in a regular pile. The regular compostable can only be composted at a facility or they take a long time, you know, in your yard, you can bury it, which I talked about a little earlier. Man, that's, that's pretty much the seven of them. You can have a septic bin as you know, you just that's what the doggy dooley kind of does, or they don't really compost, they just kind of fit in there, you throw in some septic starter, and they're like a kind of a miniature septic tank, you throw in some water Septic starter, and then they kind of just trickle into, you know the soil. So you have to be really careful because if you use if you have clay soil, it doesn't work real well. Essentially, what you have to do, Krista, is you have to kind of know your circumstance, and take some of these ideas and kind of tweak them and see what works for you. Like in Colorado, we have sandy soils, so I compost in a ditch. You wouldn't do that in Massachusetts because it would flood. kind of tricky. So you just got to be patient. Well, there's that. You know, I know that a lot of the cleaners like carpet cleaners that I use use bacteria and enzymes to break down the organic matter. Do you think that that could be an option? Is there something like that with bacteria and enzyme? Well, it's not on the market for dogs specifically. That's what septic starter kind of does. It gets it going. And people who do composting. Oh, you know, it works really well on compost, save your old Halloween candy and throw it in there. You know, anything with sugar in it will just really make compost keyed up fast, and process very quickly. One time I threw a frozen peach pie that had gone bad into the compost heap, covered it up a minute, you know, just covered it very lightly. And it was gone almost the next day. I mean, the compost pile can fire up with sugar. Oh, I just learned something new. Throw your old peach pie at it. There you go. All right. Well, as we are winding down Rose, I know that I sent this out to my followers a while ago but you have a survey. And I'd love all for everybody. Listening to fill this out. And I'm going to put this link in the show notes, because it's going to help. And it's very short, very easy. So, again, look in the show notes for that link. And Rose as we are winding down. What do you want to leave us with today? I want to let you know that dog waste isn't like nuclear waste. It's, you know, for years and years, agencies have been horrifying people with, you know, terrible stories about what it'll do. And I think the tide is turned now. And we need to keep it out of landfills with plastic. Because there's there's as much dog waste going into landfills now, as people produced in 1959, and we had sewage systems and toilets, and to keep wrapping in plastic and throwing it in the trash is not very beneficial. So think about alternatives folks. Yeah, and all of this is on your website? Yes, it's http://epwn.org https://www.facebook.com/enviropetwastenetwork And again, that stands for Enviro Pet Waste Network. All right. Well, folks, there you have it. Just another reason on why we need to be responsible pet owners and how we can make a difference. Rose, I want to thank you for being with us today. Again, all of the information on Rose, the Network, social media handles, and that survey that I would just love everybody to fill out. that'll all be in the show notes. And let's do our part and make a difference. Rose, thank you so much for all that you do. We appreciate you being on the show today. Thanks, Krista. And thanks for having me. You bet. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code WOL10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone this is Krista with Episode #176 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. As much as we sometimes want to hug a dog, animal psychologists say that dogs can be stressed and unhappy when they're hugged. And it's because they see having a limb thrown over them as a sign of dominance. They'll show that stress by licking their lips, looking away, or folding their ears. So maybe go for a belly rub or a butt scratch over a hug whenever you want to show your dog some love. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Karen Pedersen is a content writer and passionate dog owner from Minneapolis, Minnesota, where she lives with her husband Scott, dogs Tico and Taco, and Cocoa the cat. She has been involved in dog rescue since 2005 and has a soft spot for fostering dogs who need surgery or have other medical issues. She is currently learning more than she ever wanted to about dog reactivity in order to help one of her rescue dogs, Tico, and has made slow but sure progress and is so proud of him! In her spare time, she travels to visit her four grown children and drags her husband out to the Rocky Mountains to hike and try out the local breweries. Hello, dog lovers! I am so glad that you're here to learn about how to balance natural versus conventional options for your dog. And to cover this topic today, I have Karen Pedersen. Karen, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you very much for having me. I'm just excited to be a part of it. Let's start this conversation. Well, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us why you wanted to cover this topic of natural versus conventional options? Sure. Well, as you said, my name is Karen and I am a dog lover since I can remember. I’ve got two dogs right now, I have fostered many, many, many dogs over the years. And it just took me on this journey of learning about different options for treating medical issues or behavioral issues. And I eventually started a blog about it because it was hard to find information. And, you know, I wanted more community where we can share different things that work that aren't just the straight out of the textbook answer for something you might be dealing with with your dog. Right? Well, when you say so much information, I think that is the problem with the internet these days is that you have so many differing opinions. How is the dog parent supposed to know what is best for my dog? Because it is just overwhelming. It really is. It's overwhelming. And depending on where you are in your dog owning journey, you know, are you at the beginning where you think everything you read must be true and you need to do it? Or have you reached that stage in life where you're like, oh, there's different ways I can do this. They're all okay. And I need to find a way that works for me and works for my dog. Exactly. Well, and that's exactly what we talk about here is we have to be our dogs’ advocates when it comes to their health and wellness. Absolutely. Well, why don't we start? How would you define natural pet ownership? You know, I think natural pet ownership, it can mean so many things. It might be your approach to medical issues. You might be someone who tries a food change or supplement or acupuncture, instead of just going straight for a prescription medication for a medical issue. It could be your approach to training and behavior. Maybe you use things like decompression walks, or mentally stimulating toys or calling supplements. If your dog is reactive, and you're trying to work with that behavior, it could be your food choices. Some people want to feed their dogs home cooked meals or raw diets. Others want to buy kibble at the store. So it's just this combination of so many things, and it's really different and unique for every dog owner. Right? I think a lot of people when I speak with them, you know, how did you get turned on to holistic or integrative approaches to Canine care. A lot of times their dogs have an issue that conventional medicine couldn't fix or treat. And the pet parent just gets so frustrated and says okay, I'm at the end of my rope. I want to try natural. Let's go! Do you agree with that? I think you're right. I think many times you start your journey because your your animal has an issue. For me, you know I'm I was in my 20s I had my first dog and when she turned nine suddenly she started having cluster seizures. So I'm kind of an information maniac so I started reading everything I could find about what can cause seizures. And I stumbled on this article by Dr. Jean Dodds, out in California about the connection between thyroid levels and seizures in dogs. And so I talked to my vet who was conventional. And he said, Well, we can just run a thyroid test here. And I had my first experience in advocating for my pet. And I said, What I'd really like to do is have you do the blood draw, and I'd like to send it to Dr. Dodds’ BloodBank Hemopet out in California. And it was eye opening, because she turned out to be on the low end of normal. So at my vet, they would have said, Nope, she's normal. That's not the issue. But at Hemopet, they do a more intensive thyroid panel, and they take in to account the breed and age. And so Dr. Dodds said, No, this low end of normal for her age, and her breed could actually be the cause. So she started her on seizure medications, which my vet was totally on board with switch, we switched to a raw diet, and her seizures decreased dramatically, we got two more quality years of life with her. So for me, it was very eye opening, because then I realized, you know, every vet’s gonna have a different opinion. And you kind of have to find your own path for your pet and your person. And you have to educate yourself, and then choose the approach that works for you. Don't just believe everything you read or everything you hear. Yep, I totally agree. Well, it's funny. Well, it's not funny, this is not a good situation when your dog has seizures. But I can totally relate because I was one of the pet parents that just didn't know any different. I was feeding kibble, my dog out of the blue started having seizures, three different vets could not figure out the cause. And at the same time, we were getting a second dog and she was already an adult. And the breeder said, we are not going to sell her to you unless you promise to feed raw, like, Oh, she's gonna eat raw. And Higgins might as well eat raw as well. And wouldn’t you know it, within I know, it was like, three, five days, no more seizures ever. It was one change to a raw, natural species appropriate diet that did the trick. And that was the start of my journey. So you and I have a lot in common. Karen, do you believe that conventional veterinary medicine does have its place? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've been very lucky, I live in a city where I have access to holistic vets. But I have my conventional vet that I've seen for a long time. And he is very open. So you know it always every vet is specific, you can have a holistic vet that you don't click with. But he will help me weigh options sometimes. And I might go see a holistic specialist. And then my vet and I will discuss, you know, should we do this? Or should we do that? I remember one instance where I had a foster dog with a horrible staph infection on his skin and the conventional vet diagnosed it and he said, You know, I want to put him on maybe 18 days of steroids. And I was like, oh, you know, they're so bad for the dog. He's going to be drinking and peeing everywhere. You know, do we have any other options here? And he said, You know, when you have a staph infection this severe, I just don't see a way you're going to get rid of it. Without steroids. He said, Now, maybe we could just do 12 days or, you know, a lower number of days. And if we see a turnaround, we could try stopping there. And I'm like, Okay, that seems reasonable. Because this was a dog who was a senior, he had years of horrible care. So I knew that this was a deeply embedded problem, that we might need conventional, to get us to a point where we could start to use more natural and holistic methods to heal his immune system and start to, you know, start to really work at the root issues. So I do think you have to find a balance. And none of us want our dogs to be miserable. And none of us have unlimited financial resources. There's just so many things that play into it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Well, my story recently, our dog Winston got sick. Back in November right around Thanksgiving, didn't know what it was. He was already almost 14. They said it could be auto immune, it could be cancer. And we just didn't want to do the invasive diagnostic testing. And I am so much about holistic, let's do holistic, but I was faced with he is really sick, his red blood cell count his platelets just crashed. We had to have the help of an internal medicine conventional doctor, keep him alive for a couple more months. And to this day he passed late January, and we still don't know what it was. But we got two more months with him because of prednisone, which is an unbelievable drug in the right instance. So I'm with you there. And you know, what if my dog breaks their leg or needs surgery, yes, conventional medicine all day long. But if there is a way to seek a natural approach, I and many more of us are figuring out wow, there are ways to treat ticks and fleas without harsh chemicals. Or do I really have to give that heartworm medication for the what if my dog even gets heartworm and the vaccines? And it's it's a balance, and I'm totally on board with you. And, you know, I think at this point, in the conversation, we're talking about how we, as advocates for our dogs sometimes have to struggle between choosing between the natural versus the conventional, and to your point, both medical and behavioral issues. So what are some of the things that we might encounter when we're trying to decide? You know, there are a number of things. And can I just first say, I'm so sorry for your loss. I love his little voice on your podcast, how wonderful that you got two more months for him not to suffer and just be loved. Yes. Oh, that's wonderful. And to your question, you know, there's, there's a number of different struggles, you might encounter one, you may have a vet who disagrees with you. And sometimes in the case of my vet, we can have a really respectful conversation. And we're both okay, that we have different opinions. In other cases, you might need to change vets. So I've had that happen. I got scolded once by a vet, because I chose not to give my dog another rabies vaccination, and was asking about titers. And for me, it was the first time I'd seen that, vet and I was like, Yeah, we're not a good fit. Other struggles, it can be the expense. holistic treatment and medicine can be more expensive. And that isn't to say, it's not worth that money, and that those vets don't, you know, justify that cost. But we all have to make financial choices, and there's not a right or a wrong choice. There can be, you know, sometimes a natural approach can take longer, because you have to look for the root issue, you know, you're not just putting a bandaid on the symptoms, and natural methods have a slower response. And so sometimes the success or the failure of trying natural is going to hinge on, how long has that problem existed. If I have my one year old dog, and I see he's starting to itch a little more, right away, I'm like, Okay, I need to give him supplements to support his immune system. Maybe he has some spring sensitivities or food sensitivity, I can start working on that stuff. And I'll probably have pretty good luck because it hasn't had time to really grow and get worse and worse. Versus the dog I mentioned this Foster, who was 10 had had horrible allergies his whole life, you know, his ears had lumps from shaking and itching. This is something where his immune system has been struggling for a long time. And that meant that a natural approach was going to take much longer. So so many of these things, you know, they can be a struggle when you have to weigh and balance. Yep, I absolutely agree. Well, Karen, we are at a point where we are going to take a quick break and listen to our sponsor of the month and then we will be right back. So hold tight everybody. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we are back with Karen Pedersen. And we were talking about how to choose and making that decision between conventional options for your dog versus natural. And Karen, I love what you said about the struggles that many of us go through. And I almost define it at times desperation to get an answer. Because it's an emotional decision. These dogs are our family and we can't see them suffer. We want to help them. What is it that we're going to do to help them and I know I have been somebody that it was in that desperate situation? And just, you know, let's try this supplement? No, let's try this one. And I mean, I've had supplement graveyards of just stuff. Yeah, it is a hard choice to make. So why do you love more natural approaches when it comes to your dog? You know, there are so many reasons. One is just the empowerment. Because for me, personally, natural health involves being an educated owner, really, you know, thinking through and educating myself when I'm making decisions versus listening and doing what I'm told. Another thing I love is when you're when you take a natural approach, a lot of times it's kind of forcing you to think outside the box. Because you're you're not just looking at this behavioral issue or that medical issue. You're looking at, what is the bigger picture? That is all you know the root that is causing that issue? Like one example I have a dog named Tico. He has been my growth dog he is we think part Border Collie part German Shepherd. He is the snuggliest, sweetest dog I've ever had. But he is fear reactive. And in the course of he's now eight and in the course of his life, I have not just learned about natural health which might mean I do titers for distemper for him and for rabies so that I’m not over vaccinating. Rabies is a little tougher when you have a reactive dog. So then I have to weigh. If someone you know if someone ran up and scared him and he nipped them, okay, I'm legally responsible here. So all these things are factoring in but also what I found with Tico was that food affected his behavior. So as a natural pet owner, I would have days he was great. And days, he was so amped up, he would start hurting the cat and hurting dogs. And those were kind of my signals that if I go on a walk, he's gonna go nuts if he sees another dog. And so I started a log, and I would keep track of what days he was great and what days he had a real hard time staying calm. And I was logging food changes. And I was working with a Chinese medicine practitioner and she said, let's add oatmeal because that's a cooling food. So I thought that's easy enough. I added oatmeal to his raw diet. And within I want to say two days, I started to notice he was really amped up. And by three days or four days, he started to go at one of my other dogs. And it got to a point where that dog would walk in a room and Tiko would run out him and muzzle punch him. And I remember sitting on the floor and crying to my husband saying, I can’t do this, you know, thinking what am I going to do? And as I filled out my log that night, I thought the only thing in our lives that has changed is the oatmeal, but that would make no sense. But I thought well, you know what the heck. So I stopped the oatmeal and within two days I think he stopped going at my other dog and within In about five to seven days, all of his amped up behavior had disappeared. Amazing. And had I not had this natural approach of like, let's look at everything, let's really think about things, I would never, never have discovered that. Well, with that same dog, another aha moment. I don't know if you've ever had a reactive dog. But as a reactive dog parent, you you are always looking for that magical solution, because the internet is full of my dog was doing all these horrible things, and then they changed this one little thing and all the problems went away. And as much as you know, you know, it's not that easy. You hope. And with Tico, part of that journey for me was trying different forms of training. And there's a lot of positive forms of training, they're all really good, they're all different. And with really minimal luck, you know, I made small strides. But, you know, if he goes nuts with a dog that's 50 yards away versus 100 yards away. It hasn't changed my life too much as an owner. And then I stumbled on a trainer. And his approach was that some dogs are fearful reactive, because there are little things you do as a dog owner, that show your dog that you're the guardian. And I'm not talking like Cesar pack leadership, alpha roling any of that. But I'm talking about kind of, if you think human being the consistent parent and little things that dogs look at, such as Do I say hi, right, when I come in the door? Or do I wait five minutes, and then call them over to me to have our wonderful greeting. And that discovery, I have made more progress in the last year than I did in the first seven. Wow. So again, to me, this is in this bubble of natural pet ownership. Looking at all the things that might be adding up to cause this problem behavioral or medical. Well, I think you just hit the nail on the head, holistic approach is whole body. That's everything. So I love that approach. As you said in the beginning, you know, a lot of conventional medicine unfortunately, puts a bandaid on things that our dogs are facing. Whereas holistic, might take a little longer to work and to figure it out. But that's what it's all about what is the root cause? And you've been saying that this entire interview, so I really, really appreciate that. Yeah, it is so true. You mentioned some vets, of course, um, you know, we can't see eye to eye with the treatment that we're gonna give our dog. So sometimes not only veterinarians, but others in our life, and our dog's life, are judging us on the choices that we make. So what are your thoughts about dealing with judgment from others? you know, judgment is so real. And this journey for me has been not only about realizing how to deal with judgment of me and my dog, but also looking at myself and realizing that I need to look at other people and their dogs without judgment. You know, there's no two people that are going to have the same combination of a conventional or natural approach to medical or behavioral issues. And there's no best way. So I think, you know, as a person, as human beings, if we just stop judging others worry less about other people and how they do it, and not seeing someone doing it differently than me as a put down as my way of doing it instead of celebrating that we are all finding the right balance for us, and our pets. And it's a special journey between you and your dog. Because you're growing together and finding this beautiful combination that works for you. And it's easy to say and you know, I do I should point out that when you have a dog, especially a reactive dog, it's a whole journey of judgment, because I can remember earlier years when I would cry on a walk, like he would have a huge outburst and I would be holding him with all my strength. And the owner would be looking at me with really big eyes, you know, half wondering if they're about to be eaten and the other half thinking get control lady. Sure. And that was really hard for me. And I've made so much progress that now when my dog has a fail, for the most part on good days, I can be like, Hey, buddy, it's okay. You know, I’ve got this and you're okay and having this more. Like, I see you're upset. I'm here, and I'm going to get in front of You and I'm going to stop your behavior. But I'm going to calm you I'm not going to go, Oh, my goodness, this is so embarrassing. It's a real, it's a different mental place for me. Or punishment. You’re not going to punish them for how they're feeling and reacting. Exactly. And you know, I have a story that illustrates how perceived judgment can affect you, you know, I've made this progress with Tico. And we can now go, there's a certain lake where we can walk on the trail with a lot of other people and dogs and bikes. But it has this beautiful grassy expanse next to the trail. So I can always veer as wide as I need to, to keep him in a calm state. And we were walking there. And in this training that I've done in the last year, he has responded, and he was walking by my side with a loose leash. And as we approached, a couple was approaching us and the man stopped talking to his wife, and he watched. And as I came close, he smiled at me, and he pointed at Tico, my sweet little psychotic nightmare of a dog. And he said, Now, that is a well trained dog. And I tell you, I still tell the story. And I choke up because I thought, for so many years, every comment, every reaction I got about this dog, obviously affected me more than I have wanted to let on because I'm like, refocus, you know, this is just about Tico, and we can do this. But to hear that, and to have that emotional reaction. You know, dealing with judgment is hard as a pet owner. So I think it's a constant journey to gain the confidence in what you're doing, to be able to separate yourself from that judgment and find your confidence in your relationship with your dog. Oh, you said it's so well, perfect. Well, as we are wrapping up, Karen, what are your final thoughts on this topic? What advice would you give to others that are listening that are having these same struggles? You know, I think I would just want to remind them that, you know, we all have to constantly work, and I have to constantly work to remind myself that my balance of natural versus conventional ownership for my dogs is okay. And it's about finding what works for us, not about the right way or the wrong way. And when I have that mindset, I really, truly believe that my dogs are happier. I'm happier, I'm more comfortable with my choices. That makes me happier and less stressed pet owner, and it's just this is a positive spiral. Because my dog will sense that I'm happy. And they're happier. And we just keep feeling better and better about our choices. But it's okay, that it's a struggle. I think we all need to give ourselves a little grace, and know that it's about the journey and about the growth. Well said, well, Karen, you, as you mentioned, you are a blogger, and have chosen this path of being a natural pet blogger, what do you want to offer to our listeners as far as finding you? And how can they make suggestions on topics like these that they would love to see you cover in your blog? You know, I would just say the blog is HappyNaturalDog.com all one word. So come on over to HappyNaturalDog.com And if you don't see something that you're looking for, maybe something you've discovered, message me, there's a Contact Me button, you can email me at happynaturaldog@gmail.com. And those are my favorite topics to write about. Because there's just a gratification in being able to help another owner who's on a journey like I have been. And it's also empowering for me because I love to learn about things. And I always end up learning new things about natural healthcare. When I'm answering a question and helping someone look for options. Yeah, I am the same way. It's all about education and sharing this information. Because we all when it comes down to it. We're all like minded, we're all in community, and need to help push each other forward. So I love what you're doing. I just, I thank you for sharing this with us today. The stories I think are what people react to and can put your put themselves in your shoes. And I know that we've helped a lot of people today. So I just am so grateful for everything that you do. Thank you, Karen. Well, thank you and thank you for doing this podcast because this is the way that people find others or find ideas and it's just invaluable to have something like this that people can find and learn on. Well. It's just Another platform and we have to all keep moving the needle forward and helping each other out. So thank you. And we will be back next time with another informative Wag Out Loud episode. And everything that we talked about today. All the links, how to get a hold of Karen is all going to be in the show notes. So thank you everybody for being the best advocate for your dogs. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello there this is Krista with Episode # 175 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and I've tried that I know, like and trust. Products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life. And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for you and your dog. Here are some interesting stats. The folks at the Dog Aging Project found that odds of Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, also known as CCD increased 52% with each additional year of age. However, among dogs of the same age, those that were not active were 6.47 times more likely to suffer from CCD, compared to those that were very active. A trend seen in humans as well. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr Rob Silver graduated from Colorado State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine in 1982, and began his practice of holistic medicine shortly thereafter. Dr Silver was a pioneer in the use of ozone, home prepared diets, acupuncture and Chinese herbs, and the use of nutraceuticals like turmeric, cannabis, CBD and medicinal mushrooms. Dr Silver is currently designing a full range of mushroom products for many of the conditions pets can suffer from, and for wellness for Real Mushrooms as their Chief Veterinary Officer.  Dr Silver has just completed his second book: The Healthy Pet Handbook: A Guide to the Use of Cannabis, CBD and mushrooms for Dogs Cats and Horses. Publication date pending. Hello, dog lovers, we so appreciate you listening in as I chat with Dr. Rob Silver. And we are talking about There's a Mushroom for That. So Dr. Rob, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself, and share how you started using medicinal mushrooms in your holistic veterinary practice. Absolutely, Krista. Thank you so much for inviting me today so I can share some of my successes with your listeners. So I'm a I'm kind of an old timer. I graduated from Colorado State University's College of Veterinary Medicine in 1982. And at the time, I thought I knew everything I needed to know to to do battle with all these awful diseases that our pets get. After a couple of years, I got frustrated with some of the chronic diseases, things like diabetes, or Cushings and cancer, you know, it's just were not really very well addressed by the stuff I learned in school. So I started reaching out to learn other things. And in the process, I learned about diet, nutrition and offered home, you know, home cooked meal recipes to my clients. I explored acupuncture, Chinese herbal, Western herbal medicine, used some nutraceuticals and and really was very comfortable with being able to help my patients so much better. So as I was trying to address cancer in my patients, I started using a mushroom for that. And that was many, many years ago, and I actually had to get the dried reishi mushroom and I had to fix it up myself the way we have to boil it in hot water to extract all the goodies that it contains. And I did see what I would say were good results. Did I cure cancer, No, but I saw quite a bit of benefit in terms of quality of life, and my patients living much longer than the oncologist had predicted. So that's really what got me started with this. And over the years, I've you know, I practice for 30-35 years. I retired from practice to help pet parents with their pets. And so as a result, I've written books, I write articles, I speak nationally on the topic, you know, participate in these kinds of events, to spread the word that there is a mushroom for that. You know, be it cancer, you know, be it anxiety, you know, be it energy and performance being you know, chronic GI problems. There's so many different issues that our pets have that mushrooms can help and there are specific questions that have specific abilities to help with certain conditions. Well, that leads me right into my next question. You are perfect. Dr. Rob, since our focus is on dogs on this show, what would you say are the power mushrooms that bring the most benefits to our dogs? Well, I really think that any mushroom that has medicinal properties, which is everyone, even the little white button mushrooms that we eat for dinner, have medicinal properties. But in general, I would say that I look at reishi, the Ganoderma mushroom as having you know, quite a few properties, I wouldn't I really couldn't, I couldn't pick one actually, because each one has such unique abilities. You know, I like the reishi, personally, because it kind of settles my energy, and it helps me feel better. In general, I'm getting older, with some arthritic problems, and it's very anti inflammatory helps me with all of that. But really, you know, it could just as easily be Chaga, which technically is not a mushroom. Chaga is actually mycelium growing into the birch tree. Chaga has a wide range of applications, we think of it for cancer, but it's great for GI and also can work with allergies, because it has anti histaminic properties. Might talk about Lion's Mane for dogs, for those poor dogs that are the older dogs that have a little bit of cognitive issues, or for their parents, you might have some memory issues, you know, the lion's mane can be very helpful. And of course, our you know, Turkey Tail, you know, is dominant really, when we think about cancer, historically, for hundreds of years, Turkey Tail has been what the practitioners have selected to help treat their patients for cancer, because it has so many strong beta glucans in it. So I'm really hard pressed to select one specific mushroom. I love Shiitake maybe Shiitake which is such a wonderful edible mushroom, you know, and has great properties in terms of in terms of helping with fat metabolism in the body with immune system modulation, you know, I’m hard put, to name a single mushroom to answer your question, Krista. Because there's so many good ones. I know. If they've been around for so long, hundreds of years., why does it seem that these mushrooms are just coming onto the scene when it comes to Canine health? That it's more recent? Well, I think that a lot of it has to do with the evolution of our relationship with our pets, you know, no longer are our pets. You know, I mean, certainly we have many pets that are working animals, but the companionship that our pets offer, they become four legged family members for sure. And mushrooms have been a part of the human tradition for hundreds of years. So to me, it's logical that as we're looking around the world, to see what natural substances can help benefit our pets, that we would naturally gravitate towards the kingdom of fungi and to mushrooms in general. And I think that's one of the main reasons and then another reason is, as companies have been developing products that make it easy for humans to to take the mushrooms instead of having to take the dried mushroom and boil it, you know, boil it down to like a soup, you know, they're offering them as capsules and powders and, you know, and even for pets, now we've got them in soft chews, you know, so I think the human company, the companies that were making it for humans, recognize this relationship that people have with their pets, and see it as an opportunity to help the pets as well as to expand their businesses. So I think that is my explanation for why it's only recently. But boy the speed with which, the you know, the pet parents are adopting mushrooms for, you know, to help their pets be well or to help manage chronic problems is is amazing. It's it's really the fastest growing industry in the dietary supplement industry in general, statistically. Really? So that surpasses CBD? You know, in terms of the cost of the product, CBD is more expensive. So if you look at it in terms of dollar figures, no, I think CBD is, you know, a much more lucrative industry so to speak. But I think, you know, in terms of the applications, you know, mushrooms have no controlled substance issues with them, there's no well there's no real stigma placed on mushrooms the way it's placed on marijuana and THC. And marijuana and THC. Although certainly when used properly can be very beneficial. Most often is not used properly and drives dogs to the ER so you know, mushrooms are safe. And mushrooms are not controlled substances, except for psilocybin, but we're starting to expand our our imagination around the the applications for psilocybin as well and research is supporting it so and we're seeing legalization so I think it's really a number of different factors, you know, that has contributed to the rise in the mushroom industry. And I really do think that it surpasses the CBD industry. I was very involved in, you know, in introducing CBD to pet parents to veterinarians back in 2015 when it started to get a little more legal. And I switched to working with mushrooms just because it is I think the next best thing. I even had a slideshow, I’d show to vest where I would talk about mushrooms, I'd say the next best thing after cannabis because it really I don't know if it's the next best thing but it is every bit as good if not better in terms of helping our pets. Right and can even be used in conjunction with CBD. Well, absolutely. In fact, I've been working on developing protocols that involve blending the use of mushrooms with the use of CBD. There's good studies now show CBD can help with allergic patients. There's good studies that show that Reishi, the Ganoderma mushroom and Chaga both have antihistaminic properties in them much like our and much like our Benadryl, but without all the downsides. So yeah, a lion's mane, you know, for calming and settling, you put Lion's Mane together with some CBD and it's a very calming experience. So yeah, I think to work together synergistically and, and actually mate with some of the main… I don't want to get too technical, but they are involved with some of the same membrane receptor systems. So yeah, no, it's it's fascinating. That’s awesome. Well, Dr. Rob, you mentioned before, that we even have chews available with mushroom, in your opinion, do tinctures in liquid form, powders or chews, do they all have the same bioavailability? in my opinion, it’s not really my opinion, based on what I've learned from reading the studies. In order to extract the beneficial beta glucans from the mushrooms, you know, we have to use the hot water extraction process. But if the the mushrooms and the beta glucans themselves, tend to not be as water soluble as we would like them to be for a liquid extract. So we do, there are several different types of active ingredients in mushrooms, and some of them are water soluble, and some of them are fat soluble. So it's hard to put them both together in the same liquid format where it is easier to have them in the same solid format. So generally tinctures that could be if they're alcoholic tinctures. Not ethanol, so not for alcoholics. But they have alchohol in them. Let me just correct that. If they're if they're based in alcohol, then they probably have the fat soluble terpenes and tri terpenes, which are so powerful in our mushrooms, and they're very good. But they don't have beta glucans, which in the whole mushroom, we get both of them. If it's a if it's a powder, it is probably going to have the beta glucans. But the fat soluble components can also be put in there as well. So I so it also depends on what you want, you know, if maybe you're looking for the activities that tri terpenes have maybe been a tincture using alcohol or it's in vegetable glycerin could very well be effective for what you're using it for. But I think in general, we want more of a broad spectrum of activity with all of the active ingredients in there. And so that's why I feel that the best form would be in a powder that could be put in a capsule, it could be tapped in put in tablets could be put into a soft chew. Those are all formats, I think are much more compatible with providing the full potency of the full mushroom. Okay, well thank you for that. I hope I'm not getting too technical. No, we love to geek out on this show. This is perfect. Okay, then you came to the right place. We appreciate it. Well, Dr. Rob geek, not all mushrooms are created equal. So when we're buying medicinal mushroom products for our dogs, what should we be looking for? Well, right now in the production of products that are labeled as containing mushrooms there are there's really two types of products that we see in the marketplace. And many of these are products that are very familiar I'm sure with your listeners, and it has to do with how they're cultivating the mushrooms. And in the cultivation of mushrooms we first grow that mycelium on grain. We call that grain spawn. And once the mycelium has grown through the grain we take that mycelium grain and we put it on the special substrate that mushrooms grow on some mushrooms grow on dead or dying wood, some mushrooms grow in compost or leaf litter or manure. So once you put the mycelium grain on that appropriate substrate, the mycelium grows through substrate and when environmental conditions are right, it produces the mushroom and when we analyze the mushroom for beta glucan, which is really the secret sauce in most mushrooms, we find it to be 25 to 50%. But there are some production methods in which they take the grain spawn. And they that's it, they dry it, and they powder it. So it's primarily 50 to 60% carbohydrates from grain. And when we measure the Beta Glucan content of these types of products, the beta glucans are often only 20% or less than what we find in the real mushrooms. So we call these mycelium on grain products and some companies promote them. They they believe that the mycelium on grain is a very, very potent medicinal product. But I haven't seen the studies that really support that. And when we look at the levels of the active ingredients in the mycelium on grain, they're so low, you would have to take an awful lot of it to get a comparable amount from a small, much smaller comparable amount of actives from a much smaller amount of the mushroom itself. This is why the company that I'm with calls itself Real Mushrooms because that's what we sell real mushrooms. Some of the companies that sell the the mycelium on grain, call it mushroom, and I don't like that that's not that's not that's not transparent. That's and many pet parents don't want to feed their pets, grains, you know, and especially carbohydrates, cancer patients, we don't want to feed them much in the way of carbohydrates because carbohydrates feed the cancer. So I'm working right now within the industry to try to get some standards for labeling language so that it can be clear to the consumer. If the consumer feels and believes that the mycelium on grain is what they want for their pets. That's great. They should have that labeled on the product. So they can select that and give that to their pet. On the other hand, if a pet parent wants to give the higher potency mushrooms that they need to know that if it says mushroom on the label, it's a mushroom, it's not mycelium on grain. So that's my whole. And that's actually something that has less to do with real mushrooms and more to do with my desire to protect the consumer. You know, which is a very you know, as you know, I've been I've been a vet for over forty years. I've retired from practice, but I feel like I'm still that my work. My mission still is to protect the pets and to protect their and to educate their parents to help the pets live long and healthy lives. And so this is one of my missions is to get that information out. Thank you for all you do. We appreciate it. Hey, Dr. Rob, we are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back so hold tight. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we're back everybody with Dr. Rob Silver and we are talking about there's a mushroom for that. And Dr. Rob, I love how you just broke down the differences in the products that are available to us to buy for our dogs. So why don't we now talk? You mentioned in the beginning that each mushroom, they might have similar active ingredients but they each address different issues that our dogs are facing. So for the usual that, you know most of our dogs have allergies or GI issues or we mentioned cancer. Can you just break down maybe some of your favorite mushrooms and what they would be good for addressing in our dogs? Yes, I'd love to do that. Thank you. And I'll start with the mushroom of immortality, the reishi mushroom, and I mentioned it multiple times, because it really is my favorite mushroom. And it has been probably one of the more recognized mushrooms for centuries and centuries, you know, in ancient China, the Chinese would bring would find these huge specimens of the mushroom, and they would bring it as an offering to the Emperor because it's an honor to the, to the person to to give that as a gift to the Emperor and with the thought was conveyed Long life to the Emperor and Reishi has really hundreds of molecules that are active in it, it has these Beta Glucan molecules that are very specific for improving the immune system. It has these tri terpenes, which are these volatile molecules, a terpene is something like if you squeeze a lemon and you smell that lemon smell, that's a terpene, that's limonene. Well, the terpenes in mushrooms are much larger, not so volatile, as in lemons, but they have very strong effects on the immune system and on the body as a whole. Reishi is known as a meditation aid for Zen masters, because it has a calming effect. Reishi has an antihistiminic effect. It has all those beta glucans and all this other molecules in it, which improve immune system function. So that's Reishi. The only downside to Reishi is because it's so potent. It's a very bitter tasting mushroom, I have to take it, I'm taking the powder in my espresso, because it matches that bitterness. So it does come in capsules. And when I formulate into soft chews, it's always a challenge to try to mask that taste. So there doesn't because you want whatever you like stuff to specially need to be palatable. So I love Reishi .After reishi, I would say the next mushroom I would talk about is Turkey Tail . Turkey tail’s gotten everybody's attention, because of a couple of studies with dogs and hemangiosarcoma. Over the centuries Turkey Tail has been the choice that humans use for their own cancer because Because Turkey Tail has the highest Beta Glucan content of any mushroom at all. Plus it has 17 different types of beta glucan in it. So that's part of why it has that potency. Plus it has those triterpenes, which also have anti cancer properties as well. So I think of Turkey Tail for cancer, and I think of it for infections. I took a lot of Turkey Tail during the pandemic, and I was able to escape getting that disease up until, you know, just a couple of months ago. Oh, so yeah, but it's you know, it was very it was like transient and after 24 hours, it's gone. After Turkey Tail, I would say Lion's Mane. now lion's mane is the most popular mushroom in America today. Because it helps with it helps with memory. Oh, yeah, that's it. And also because it helps with memory, and it helps with stress helps with some dementia as well. We think that it has a good application for senior dogs who are a little fuzzy in their thinking. The vets call it canine cognitive disorder, Lion's Mane can work can appears to work really well for that. We need, we need to get some studies going to support that. I'm currently looking talking with some behaviorists about putting something together in that regard. So Lion's Mane traditionally was used for GI complaints, primarily upper GI complaints and GI cancer, you know, so those are some things to think about with Lion's Mane plus, it's a tasty, edible mushroom, if you can get the fresh lion's mane and cut it into steaks, it's just amazing. As far as taste, I really love it. So also, the taste of mushrooms, I think really speaks to the ability to give it to the pets. And of all the mushrooms there's only two that I think are so tasteless or bland tasting that I'm very comfortable saying that almost any cat would take them mixed in with their food. Lion's Mane is one and then the next mushroom I want to get to is called cordyceps and that's the other and in many regards cordyceps is really the ideal mushroom for cats one because they'll probably eat it. Cordyceps is in the family of mushrooms that is related to truffles and morels, so it's very tasty. I think it tastes a bit like like toast actually. And one of the neat superpowers to Cordyceps is that it supports the kidneys and it supports the lungs. So for me it's the ideal mushroom to give to a cat for wellness and certainly if you if you missed the boat starting early with it and your cat comes down with chronic kidney disease, as 85% of all animals who have chronic kidney disease are cats so they are very likely to get it you can probably support their kidneys because studies show that It does support kidney function well enough that perhaps we can avoid that disease or at least postpone until much, much later in life. So Cordyceps also has something special in it called Cordycepin, and Cordycepin is an inhibitor, I could nerd out a little bit. So, Cordycepin, inhibits a receptor in the body called the adenosine receptor, that is the same receptor that caffeine inhibits, in order to create more ATP, like molecules that create energy in the body. So Cordyceps is much like coffee in terms of creating energy, but it's like all mushrooms, it also has a calming effect on the mind. So it gives you some energy but without the jitters much in the same way that green tea could do that as well. So I'm very, I take myself I think reishi, cordyceps, and lion's mane. So yeah, they're my three favorites. I took Turkey Tail for the for the viral stuff, but there's so many other great mushrooms Chaga, which not a mushroom. It's mycelium growing in the birch tree. But Chaga also traditionally was used for its ability to support the GI system. And chaga grows into the birch tree. So it extracts this molecule from the birch bark called betulinic acid which is a terpene that also has the antihistaminic properties. It has some calming properties that has some anti inflammatory property. So Chaga is great. I know I was talking to Karen Becker. She likes to put chaga in her bathwater. I mean, there's so many applications of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the Nobel Prize literature winner when he was imprisoned in the Russian gulag, contracted cancer. He treated it with Chaga and then wrote about it in his book, Cancer Ward. So and then there's shiitake. God, who doesn't love shiitake, you know, I cook with it every night. But shiitake has actually more bioactive molecules and is more studied than almost any other mushroom there is. And it has anti cholesterol properties. But you know, dogs don't have problems with cholesterol, but they do have problems with with excessive fat and triglycerides in their blood, it can help with that. It has huge benefits. As far as the immune system, there's probably four or five commercial products that have been extracted from shiitake in Asia that are used for cancer. So and then maitake another great mushroom, as you can find it growing wild. It's supposedly the most prized edible mushroom there is. maitake has great anti cancer properties, because its beta glucans are branched much more than other beta glucans, which gives them more anti cancer value in terms of in terms of the killing of the cancer cells and stimulating the immune system to kill the cancer cells as well. Tremella is a new one. Most people probably haven't heard of it. It's called the snow fungus. And it's a prized edible in Asia. But tremella has a Hyaluronic acid like molecule in it. So many people are using it for their complexion for their skin for dry skin. It can help with joints as well, you know, so, temella also has some some benefits from meditation. I forgot to mention that lion's mane also has been shown to improve myelination. And so there's some diseases of the dog like degenerative myelopathy, which are demelanization diseases, and there's some evidence that it may be helpful for that. Likewise, Lion's Mane combined with tremella can be a very powerful duo for nervous system issues. I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two, but… They're all amazing in their own way. Yeah, they are. I mean, that's why that's why I liked that phrase. There's a mushroom for that, you know, because because they do have so many different applications. And yet they have so many similar applications. You could use any mushroom, I think, to treat cancer, if you dose it high enough. And I think that's might be the next question is how do you figure out how much to give? Well, we are about to run out of time. But if you have some thoughts on that, yeah, what is the dosing? Well, there we don't, we don't really have any literature that can help guide us. In dosing animals. We have some human literature where we just use the weight of the mushroom itself. There's how many grams that you take daily, but one of the things I'm liking working with Real Mushrooms is all of their mushroom products are standardized to their Beta Glucan content. So I developed a way of dosing based on the amount of beta glucan in a given mushroom, so it applies to all the mushrooms. So we have a lot of literature and I invite your listeners to to check out the website and look we're very strong in education because there is so much still to teach and learn about mushrooms. Absolutely. Well, you are the Chief Veterinary Officer of Real Mushrooms. I am a huge fan, I take them myself and give them to my dog. So anybody that wants to check out RealMushrooms.com I am an affiliate because I believe in the products and take them myself as I mentioned. So I offer a 10% discount with the code WOL. So I will put all of this in the show notes. And as we're wrapping up, Dr. Rob, I know that you also own Well Pet Dispensary. What is that all about? Well, I started the Well Pet Dispensary about nine years ago. And on it I as I retired from practice, I still felt the need to give back to the pet to pet parents and to pets. And so I wanted to offer a website where I could offer many of the same products that I used in practice to help address certain serious diseases. I focus on diseases like cancer and chronic bowel diseases and neurologic diseases primarily in terms of the products I have. So I use the Well Pet Dispensary as a platform to sell my own branded CBD CBG tincture, and my soft chews as well. I also sell Real Mushrooms there. But I bet if you're looking for Real Mushrooms, I suggest you go through Krista because she's she's such a strong supporter of Well Pet Dispensary. I also have a blog site called Nurse Your Pet, which I share with a equine holistic vet, and a board certified canine rehab practitioner. So those are, you know, just just trying to help the pet parents out there. Create long and healthy and happy lives together with their four legged family members. And we so appreciate that. Well as we are about to sign off. Dr. Rob, you know, we just mentioned the Well Pet Dispensary. And he is giving our listeners a huge opportunity to try out these amazing products. Use Discount Code wagoutloud25 at WellPetDispensary.com. That is amazing. I will also put the Nurse Your Pet information in the show notes as well. So Dr. Rob, we are about to sign off. Do you have any closing words of wisdom for us? Social Media URLs or Tags          Instagram: @docrobsilver          Facebook: @docrobsilver          LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-robert-j-silver/ Well, just love your pets. Yes, I think that's probably it right there. Love your pets and do good by them and learn from them because they have so much to teach us. Well, you have taught us a lot as well. So Dr. Rob, thank you for being on. And thank you for educating pet parents on how to help their pets live a longer, happy, healthier life. So I appreciate you being here today. I appreciate being here to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, Krista. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #174 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and I've tried, that I know like and trust. Products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. Here's something I found interesting, the presence of a leash, the sex of a dog's owner and the sex of the dog itself all play a part in the aggressiveness of a dog when they're being walked. So dogs being walked by men are four times more likely to attack and bite another dog. Why is this? Well, it's because many dogs not only react to the behavior and posture of other dogs around them, but also to their people. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Nathan Dewsbury is a seasoned expert in the animal health and wellness industry, with a track record of launching successful product-focused companies. His unique blend of scientific and business development skills has been instrumental in developing, manufacturing, and commercializing innovative nutritional supplements and testing programs. His extensive experience includes participation in multi-national health testing programs and guiding product development from R&D stages to commercial launch, giving him a comprehensive understanding of the entire process. Nathan received his graduate degrees in science and business from Texas A&M University and has numerous scientific publications to his name. Welcome dog lovers to yet a another informative Wag Out lLoud pawdcast episode. I am so excited to chat with Nathan Dewsbury and we are going to talk about applying science correctly for dogs. So Nate, thank you so much for being here today. Oh happy to be here, Krista. So thank you. Well, before we get started, if you could please introduce yourself and tell us when this passion for canine health started for you. Oh, no worries. So I am one of the co-owners and founders of rogue pet science. And so we've been for me, I've been doing this for the better part of 12 years, but we've been publicly available for the better part of six years now. And, you know, I'm a scientist by trade, a lot of diverse background in production animals, solving health problems the world over. I'm also a business trained scientist as well. So I've ran labs, I've developed diagnostics to help develop early stage research for vaccine development, dog cancer development work with Texas A&M and lot more of the dog trainer I competed in protection sports, you know, I've kind of done it all. And this diverse background allows me to see not just health issues, but a lot of issues from a multiple points of view. So I'm very well rounded. So not very silonated in just one little area, though, I've been in multiple silos. And so early on during my early developmental time as a, as a trainer, training my dog competing with my dogs helping others with, you know, raw diet and all that conversions back in the in the late 1990s. That's really weird to say that. I was, you know, there were three books published on this topic. I mean, back when you had to read books. So, you know, I was doing this I was traveling with the dogs, living with them full time, you know, as we traveled multiple states, and really realized that, you know, there's so much more than we can do on the dry food side that it wasn't a solution. And even on the raw food side. It was you know, it was helping a lot of people we were getting a lot of abatement, but we weren't getting resolution on a lot of issues. They still reoccurred but they were definitely diminished. And then the inconvenience of raw for those if you've ever traveled with dogs, even when I was getting it for free, it was still inconvenient and the timing of it so that was kind of starting a seed in my mind. I was like there's gotta be a better way. At the time. I didn't know exactly what it was I was studying immune systems immune responses, development in like vaccine development research work in animals so didn't know exactly what all was going on until I got exposure globally into the gut health side of it and understanding those factors. So when you fast forward later in my career after grad school, I'm traveling still globally helping production animals, dairy, swine, poultry, still in the dog food side of things as well, and started realizing that it wasn't that, you know, it was this really defining moment, other than I'm constantly asked by, you know, a lot of my working dog guys that have kennels, with the dogs, you know, bird dog guys, hunting guys. And production sport guys, they're like, you know, when are you going solve these problems, Nate when you can solve these problems, so they knew what I did and what I was what I really enjoyed working dogs. And so it wasn't that there was a defining moment, Krista, it was more like, at some point, I felt an obligation. And that obligation was that I had knowledge, I had the experience, I know what needed to be done. So I'm obligated to do this for other pet owners around the world, which has been our mission. And thankfully, we're around the world, literally, with our products, helping pet animals everywhere. So that's the short of it, I would say there was no defining, oh, I tried everything in the world. I solved this, and so I created something, it's like, I had to create what I did, because no one was doing it because I did look around. And it wasn't that I didn't try, I did look around, I did try. And it just none of it made sense from a fundamental scientific standpoint, from a nutritional standpoint, because you got to remember, both my co owner, Blake Jackson, and I, we've been longtime friends for a very long time. And we, we started training dogs together, we were working out together, we competed in our respective sports personally, on our own. This is not like high school or college, it's beyond that, that we were competing ourselves. So we were constantly and still to this day students of nutrition, gut health, you know, meta genomic, you know, these nutrigenomics, you know, all this information is still ongoing. But we were applying this to dogs. And of course, we knew this about ourselves. And it was not a lot of rollover from the human world circulating down to the pet world. Only if you were involved in production animals, which are 20 years ahead of the pet space. That's how far they are in of course knowledge and what works, what doesn't work and why they're doing things. So I was able to apply all that exposure and private research that was seen and know what works and what didn't work and was able to develop that over six years into developing the first product, which was our, our Origins 5 in 1 product not to plug that product. Now that that was our plug that's our flagship product, and it's changed. It's helped a lot of people around the world. That is awesome. Well, Nate, you're going to chat with us about the science that is available for our dogs to realize optimal health and nutrition. But with so many different food choices and supplements on the market, how do we know? What is really going to help our dogs to thrive when it comes to the science that's available to us today? Yeah, big question. Right? How to Navigate the Dog Food & Supplement Market Yeah, it's huge question. And I think it causes a lot of stress. And in grief for for pet owners, whether they're experienced or not, you know, your average, you know, say, pet owner, and then also your training or your working dog level, guys, it causes them some stress and grief. Am I doing enough? Is this working? I don't know. I hope so. So it's a lot of emotional factors in there, that aren't exactly rooted in, in knowledge, or, as far as the science goes, being able to understand any science to understand you know, how to make better decisions. And that's not that's not on the owner, not entirely for sure. There's a lot of confusion out there, because we've always had this, saying that from the very beginning, you know, we're we're not a marketing company that happens to have a pet product line. We're a pet science company that develops functional nutritional tools, that solves problems, that we happen to do marketing, to sell the product to get in the hands on that. So that has been our biggest differentiation point, by anybody out there, as far as any quasi associated products to us, or the brands related to us in our space. So that leads into like, that we need better products, not more products. And unfortunately, you know, I mean, unfortunately, but fortunately, you know, we're, we're in the United States. So, we have that opportunity, anybody can create a product, you know, we say the market has potential for any good product. Well a good product is, is situational. And the market will always tell you what's a winner, but not always the best product ultimately be a winner at the end of the day, but we've been fortunate enough that we do have the best products. So we say we need better products, not more products, better products, meaning that not only the background information or the background science of why maybe individual components work, right there's a lot of focus, you know, narrow focus on, you know, enzymes, probiotics, the nutritional Things like raw proteins, as well as mega fatty acids happening, the science on those in different animal models, human models, you know, they work, but it's when you put them into a complex system, like the GI tract that you the GI tract environment, that that's where, what you started with on the foundations of the scientific components of it, that's when they start falling apart, right, that's why it took six years to develop our first product was because once you start putting things together, and then you put it into a incredibly complex and complicated environment, like the GI tract, then all bets are off. Because unless you've studied that product in that animal species, and measure, and then are able to measure the outcomes, positive or negative, or how what's changing, why it's changing, you know, understanding these things, then you'll never really understand that there's no observable change, right? Or easy to understand outcome, or that's even measurable or attainable tests that can be measured by your veterinarian, or some at home type testing. So that's where a lot of the, you know, the pet owners are being and consumers are being trained, oh, where's the science? Where's this study? Where's this digestibility study? You know, they say that, but then they vote with their money with the products they buy. And it is contradictory in that, in that in that same point, as well. So you know, it's not, we try to do the best we can educate and train because if we can read the body of knowledge, then we can all become better decision makers in how we treat our, our pets, and what we give them to give the best outcome to get the best quality of life outcome at the end. That's, you know, that's, that's the important part. Well, if we feed a species appropriate diet, and you and I both agree that that would be a raw and or fresh food diet. Isn't that enough? Or do we all need to supplement? Why Do Our Dogs Need Supplementation? Yeah, so, you know, that's one of the most highly debated things, right? It's about nutrition, right? It's like, oh, it's like, you know, nutrition. Everybody's got an opinion, literally, everybody's got an opinion. And so yeah, we, you know, I'm a big proponent of raw and fresh or minimally processed as minimally processed as possible. But you’re not, you know a bad owner, if you can't do that, right. Because it's the world we live in, right? It's affordable convenience is the biggest driver, right? Even my I find myself, you know, inconvenience conundrums about what to do when I'm gone. How does my wife feed the two dogs, you know, type of deal. So we have that, right. So that's the bigger component, right? The the nutrition is the foundation, or it's one of the biggest components that goes into the animal alright, it's the food. But that's where we start getting into this realm of passive nutrition versus active nutrition. Right? So passive is, you know, adding protein, you know, that's the biggest market product category out there was like protein toppers, right, you know, you get all this new pork and beef and, you know, kangaroo I mean, who knows what's gonna come out? Armadillo, insects, which I'm definitely not a fan of, you know, you put these toppers on, right? Well, that's nutrition. Right canned food, raw, you know, those are nutrition components are passive, meaning that they're not actively making too many changes. And, you know, this specifically, is when you're dealing with health issues. If that was the case, then feeding these other diets, you know, if you're on a raw diet, you know, you're still your dogs still get sick, they still have allergy, like issues that flare up, maybe seasonally, I mean, there's so many other things associated reproduction issues, there's, there's other things that we tend to associate with like, Oh, they're not getting enough nutrition, it's like, well, this isn't we're active nutrition comes in. So what we focus on too, is that the active nutrition side of making changes to the GI tract to boost its ability to do its job allows us to also improve the immune response later on inflammation responses, as well as the nutritional component, because you do need the quality nutrition to set the pH range of the GI tract, before you can do anything to get that back in balance, that'll have a positive change. And then you got to have the other if you will, the pillars of gut health, that if you're going to make any changes, you need to address these other pillars. So you're need to address the pH obviously, you need to address the the surface layer. So the mucosal barrier, the lining the support of the lining the microbes that are there and you get to worry about those guys that are there feeding those good guys and not perpetuating bad guys because you perpetuate that system and you know, how is it bagged and tagged as nutrients, you know, all these little things factor in so if you're not addressing all of those, it doesn't matter what you're feeding. If the bad the gut environment is not favorable to the animals in favor of dysbiosis or a negative type of you know, if you will, in this case, a tilt towards the negative side. You have a lot of inefficiencies that are happening, and you know, stress in the world stress on, you know, on the living situation and stress on the immune system from the environment. So like viruses and pathogens, you know, there's so many factors that come in, that play a role, that even just focusing on the best diet is not going to be enough. And that's not even factoring in the quality of these raw diets. And these were all components, right? Because those, the quality of those components in those diets matter about what that animal, that animal was being fed. So, you know, there's a depletion in our environment, obviously. So it's like, are we getting enough, you know, of the vitamins and minerals and the key cofactors, that's going to support you know, hormone production, and as well as the macro side of it, because everybody focuses on, right, you know, macros, it's the sexy thing, right? protein, protein, and it is important in fact, but then it's like, well, what about the phyto nutrition? What about the macro nutrition, have you know, magnesium and it's there have been selenium and its proponents later on it that it's cofactors in to get like the glutathione, but they're involved in many metabolic not just food metabolism, but cellular metabolic mechanisms throughout the body. Nate, I’m going to stop you right there. So we're gonna take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Hold tight, everybody. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Welcome back, everybody, we are chatting with Nate Dewsbury. And he's blowing my mind. We just talked about active nutrition. And in the market today, we are pretty much just focusing on passive nutrition. So Nate, are you saying that we, with what we're feeding our dogs, both food and supplementation, that we are just putting a bandaid and trying to fix a problem or symptom that we're seeing that we're not addressing the entire body itself and what it needs? We Aren’t Addressing the Issues Yes, that's the easy way to say that we are putting band aids on it or chasing our tail, pun intended on this one, where you have some knowledge and some buzzwords that have been perpetuated out there very nicely. But it's either not used correctly, it's not applied correctly, or it's the wrong format to be applied the way they thought it was gonna be. But it's just not going to have the function. And that's where you get a lot of these, you know, wives tales and the misuse and applications of ingredients or supplements or products, that just doesn't work definitely like, oh, I, you know, I've tried all that nothing worked or, you know, I've dealt with cases where they've done 5000, 3000 plus dollars, that's thrown everything but the kitchen sink at an issue, I mean, going as far as buying energizes crystal waters, the wave over at all to help with allergies. And they will genuinely try adding all these probiotics and the standalone products, and they're in combinations, and it wasn't working as well not wonder so you know, obviously quality issue and the format issue, but then it's like, also how you put this together to work correctly. And that's why we were able to do it with a single product in our, in our case, to make these changes very quickly, and get resolution on the problem. And then they have what's you know, to them a normal dog again, you know, a healthy, active normal dog and they don't have to do anything special to just feeding it well and using you know, in this case Origins. So yeah, putting a bandaid on it is literally what's going on or you put enough band aids and you still not getting resolution, you're still having, you know, slight issues or it flares up very quickly with the you know, the wind blows wrong and it's going to change on you a little bit or you change food or something and it's just a whole nother the same situation all over again. And that's where the science the shelf concept that we've coined comes into play because that's ultimately what our mission is always doing, we're not, we're not making products just to make products. Because then we can easily have, you know, 36 different products easily. If I can do that, within four weeks, it's not even hard to do. But that's just not what we do. So science to shelf is basically means developing products, the way science says works. And so if you do that, and you're paying attention, and applying this correctly for the species, it doesn't look the way you think it looks. And in our case, we've actually had to develop the individual ingredients, sometimes to get the format that we need to put it with something else to give us that value add proposition to give that multiplex to health, as you will approach to help addressing why we develop a product. Yeah, so. So case in point, because it's hard to, you know, not be product specific for us, because, you know, I saw all these issues. So like, you know, why we created our Pumpkin Pro, we had to develop our fermented turmeric and ginger product, to give us this natural and powerful anti inflammatory that we know works culturally, from an ingredient standpoint, many cultures that use it, and why do they use it, but then when you look at the science is whether it's culture, life studies, dog studies, human studies using this, when you actually read them or call them up and talk to all the PI's that are running the study, you can find a lot of other extra information. But you also find out the methods that they used. And even though they even though they they write it out in their studies, they tell you what they how they use and what they what they did to manipulate it, but that's not, that's where things fall off, right? It's like, oh, well, turmeric is good. And you add black pepper, and you get this, you know, three fold increase in absorption uptake. And it's like, whoa, hold on there. But turmeric is one of those misused by owners and industry type of marketing buzzwords that are misused all the time, I would never use regular turmeric off the shelf, either. So we had to create a fermented version, to make it biologically available to get those bioflavonoids, those curcuminoids these other components that are beneficial in there. the essential oils that are in these roots, that that help as that CO transporter, just like pepper pepper, in this case, is the central pepper. Well, Mother Nature's printing smart. And they have their own essential oils to help with carriers that are studied that show the same increase in uptake. So you had to create this amazing product. And then I needed that the couple with, you know, the most amazing pumpkin product to get that two step approach to managing, you know, GI distress, stomach upset issues naturally, and for it to actually work very quickly, not just throw pumpkin fiber at at a situation that's not actually that's only addressing the human’s issue that's not addressing the dog's issue. So we created that two step approach to manage the issue in the animal, in the dog, in this case, the GI tract, and then inflammation that causes the villi to shrink up. And then we also solve the owner’s issue with the best human grade pumpkin you can ever get. So we addressed that. So that's what we developed, and stuff like that. And other things that I've been testing for like two years now. So what happened, let's go back to wolves. They self selected what they needed to eat nutrition wise. Now we have our modern domestic dog. And I feel like we need to supplement so much more, is it because of the environment that they're living in? The stressors? You pointed out that, you know, there's a lot less nutritional value even in the food that we grow, you know, in the soil that is depleted? Why is it so different now with a dog that we have to address all of these other issues with food and supplementation? Why Today Do We Need to Supplement? Great, great question actually. So you also have to take into consideration that the the domesticated dog, as we know, it co evolved with humans, you know, obviously along the waterways, so their micro biomes changed in parallel to humans, as well because we were sharing the same environment like face to face sharing the environment, and they co evolved with the humans and so they they did diverge from the feral side of their their genealogy. And when you do that, well we have some changes and so any also if you think about, you know very easily think about the past even as early as the 50s but way later as well because they coevolved and they were eating other products we were also eating different products. You know, meat scraps, not us but we were eating meat and they were getting a lot of raw components as You know, in this case, it just overflow product or, or byproduct waste product from the human side. And so they were getting, you know, raw bones, they were getting organ cut offs, and, you know, collagen cut offs and organs as well. And then even some of the intestinal components as well. So they were, at some point, they were getting a lot of what their ancestral relatives were getting as well. And then the modern world is a tough world as we know it today. And, you know, we have many factors, even the city water is a factor. The air quality is a factor, obviously, and those are stressors. But the biggest conversion, you know, the biggest change, I think happened was the convenience factor, which was based on the war, there's plenty of people have written about the introduction started the, the processed kibble, the dry food, the extrusion process, when that started, and it was convenience. And for cost effectiveness, you know, we were in the middle of economic turmoil with wars and stuff. So it was that but it never the convenience was so high that it never went away. Well, diverge away from that long enough. And you're going to have some some some issues. So they the lack of diversity of the fresh quality ingredients, or minimally processed ingredients kind of took a left turn on us as dogs, though pet owners, and that allowed, you know, these, these holes to be created. And then things have only been perpetuated further. But I think over the last easily five years now, things have been moving closer to what you and I both know is more of like the whole prey type concept of being more or being revisited, talked about more and being focused on and you know, being able to include, you know, even fresh vegetables, and fruits and other organs when you can get them. That is a big help. And owners, I think are actually seeing that impact on their animals very easily with liver, you can see, you know, a lot of energy changes, obviously, because it's all the B vitamins in liver, you'll see energy changes and disposition changes. So the more we focus on that, and then also how do we help them process the dry food because remember, just because you've been through our food, you're not a bad owner. It's not about that. So there's other tips and tricks we've obviously bring about and talk about and educate on to help them process help them help their dogs to process that, that dry food, like the hot water trick, and things like that to to unlock the format, because it's, it's all about the format, right, the less processed you get, you get more inconvenience, but you get better nutrition, and then you get on the processed foods and get ultimate convenience, but it's a format problem. So, you know, you need other factors to help the dogs actually process that. And normally, they would have gotten these things through the prey animal like, you know, rodents and other small animals they would have that are designed to eat grasses and roots and vegetables and like that they would have you know, dogs and feral, you know, wolves and stuff that would get those ingredients fermented or processed, indirectly getting these vitamins and minerals, and plus the organs and everything else. So it's a trade off that we're just trying to balance out the equation. I think ultimately, what I'm trying to do is recreate that whole prey model just in a more convenient way and cost effective ways that allow owners to actually replicate what dogs really are missing, and make it convenient in this modern world to help them actually thrive. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's a lot. No, I love it. I love geeking out and the science behind it. So Rogue Pet Science, what gap are you guys filling in the market? What is Rogue Pet Science? So it's really about making health focused products that actually work at the end of the day they have to work, you have to be able to test things to make sure that they work as well, which we've done. And so we are we are filling that in this multiplex format. So it's being able to address multiple deficiencies, whether it's on the gut health side or the nutritional side, that cumulate together to solve not just health issues, but performance issues, you need nutrition, you need gut health to get ultimate performance, whether that's just the best health possible for your for your pet dog, or the working ability of a detection dog, a police dog, or, you know, these competitive, you know, like flyball and agility and stuff like that as well. So that's, that's really what we're doing. And when we do that, we put the science into it. So that's really the big differentiators that we're one of the few products out there. There's not many, only a couple actually have real science into their products, the way they work in an animal proven that they do. And we've developed and co-developed tests to also show that value and I think that's ultimately where the future is going to be able to go is this personalized or individualized nutrition for your pet at different stages of life. That's that's ultimately where things gonna end up going. We’re already seeing it on the human side. Right, so your products no matter what people feed their dog, they will help all of their bodily processes. Absolutely. Okay, awesome. Well, as we are wrapping up, Nate, I know that you have an offer for our listeners. And this is really exciting. Do you want to share that? Or do you want me to talk about it? Go ahead and talk about it. OFFER for 25% Off Awesome. Well, the team at Rogue Pet Science along with Nate is offering 25% off for you guys to try their amazing science backed products. So the code is Wag25. And that would get you 25% off of your entire purchase. And can you briefly since we're almost out of time, Nate, just tell us what kind of products you do have for them to choose from. Yeah, we have multiple food toppers, if you will, that category. So we have our Origins 5 in 1, which has all the prebiotics and probiotics, the post biotic the digestive enzymes, all the gut health side of it, plus the wild fish, which is all the organs and the end, concentrated Omega fatty acids all 42 of them, we have a natural weight gainer and weight maintainer we call Healthy Weight, which is all food based actually no no tricks, no sugars, it's just all whole food based with the gut health complexes in there. Not all of them, but most of them that actually help process those extra calories. Because it's all egg yolk, egg white, fermented barley and stuff like that, we have our Pumpkin Pro, which is you can use it as a fiber or an enrichment for diversity of the diet as well. Or if you're having you know, traveling and trying to manage stress, avoiding stress, stuff like that. And then we also have our concentrated fermented turmeric and ginger, which is a standalone mainly for senior animals, or injury prevention, if you need a powerful antioxidant, like you can use on a weekend for recovery type purposes, for the performance dog. And then we have a few other obviously, we got some Rogue gears and nice Rogue gear and bowls and tents. But we have some health tests that are tested and verified, yak sticks, which we're big fans of and adopted those way early on. And we have the best jerky treats you could ever think of which are all human grade. So most of our products are literally human grade ingredients that you can eat yourself. We're just packaged in for pet animals, for animals in general. So yeah, and then so the code is very generous, because at the end of the day, you have zero risk. There's no BS involved with us. We're here to earn trust. At the end of the day, if we can't earn that, then I don't want you buying our products. So don't you want to use it don't do what you want. zero risk return, there are no questions asked. But the end of the day. It's all about earning trust. And our products work, and we're willing to show it. I love it. Well, thank you for that very generous offer. Nate, where can everyone find out more information about you and Rogue Pet Science? Absolutely. The website, obviously, that you could go to for finding information about us the company the products. That's RoguePetScience. And it's the same on Instagram, which we do a lot of some slightly different content there. Even on Facebook, it is also @RoguePetScience, where we do a lot of Article posts and some very inside information industry inside information that we post about articles and stuff that we actually write and develop and further refine as new science comes to light. So you can find a lot of information there. We have a newsletter you can sign up for that gets you on a list that we were very, very light handed on the emails that we send out. So we won't gum up the works on your inbox as well. So that is those are the best ways. And then if you have any questions, the fastest way is either through Instagram messaging, or through Facebook Messenger. Somebody's always monitoring them even late at night like I am, and we're gonna get your answers no matter what. Your Social Media URLs or Tags       Instagram: rogue pet science      Facebook: rogue pet science      LinkedIn: rogue pet science   Your website URL:      www.roguepetscience.com Perfect. Well of course, all of this information with the links is going to be in the show notes. But of course with podcasting, this is audio. So that is RoguePetScience. And again, WAG25 gets you 25% off of your entire purchase. Nate, thank you so much for being here today. I think that we love geeking out about science and dogs here. So hopefully we've piqued some people's interests. And again, go check out RoguePetScience. Nate, thank you for all that you do. Thank you for everything you do to help us get our voices and information out to everybody. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code WOL10 For 10% off.

Hey there! This is Krista with Episode #173 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast and I think that you all know that your dog's urine contains markers, and that informs other dogs of their presence, their social standing and their sexual availability. But maybe you didn't know that male dogs lift their legs as high as they can, so they can distribute their message better, and allow their scent to travel further. And a study done a few years ago found that smaller dogs try to lift their legs even higher, so that they seem bigger to other dogs who may be around. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Daniel Schulof is an entrepreneur, activist, and science writer with a focus on exposing the conflicts of interest, bad faith, and shoddy science responsible for the chronic disease epidemics killing millions of pets every year. His 2016 book "Dogs, Dog Food, and Dogma" has been called "the most rigorous and probing canine nutrition book ever written" and his lectures and articles have been seen by hundreds of thousands of pet owners. He is the founder of KetoNatural Pet Foods and the Petfood Consumer Rights Council. Welcome dog lovers to yet another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And today I am thrilled to have Daniel Schulof here. And he's going to talk about Dogs, Dog Food and Dogma. And Daniel, first of all, I want to thank you for being with us. You know, it's been a while since we've had you on the schedule. Yeah, look, the pleasure is home mine. I, you know, I've been fortunate enough to do more than a few podcasts interviews in my life. And I will tell you that you have the fullest calendar of any podcast host with whom I have ever dealt. And it's a credit to the work that you do. You have you have a full plate. Yes, I do. Well, thank you, Daniel, I appreciate that. Why don't we get started by having you introduce yourself? And I'd love for you to share why are you so passionate about disrupting the canine nutrition space? Because you actually call out those who are totally misinformed. Yeah, I mean, so by way of introduction, you're right. I'm, I wear a bunch of different hats. But they're all kind of in service of the same idea. And that idea is that the pet owning public has been misinformed in important ways about what the scientific record says about a variety of issues of serious importance pertaining to nutrition in dogs and cats. And that as a result of that there is harm accruing to the public, both to the pets. And of course, to the owners that love them and that are emotionally harmed when their animals get sick in unnecessary ways. Like I said, I wear a few different hats. Because I've got a pretty diverse background. And at the risk of patting myself on the back too much. I've got some diverse skills. I practiced law for a while I'm a lawyer. I've also started numerous entrepreneurial ventures, both for profit and nonprofit. And I've written a book and it's a big fat science book about veterinary nutrition stuff. And so as a result of all of that I've kind of got a unique knowledge base. And I like to think that I've got the unique skill set to make a difference on that issue that matters a lot to me. And so you know, I've founded a couple of companies, the most notable one is called Keto Natural Pet Foods. We Make Low Carb dog food. But yeah, I can tell you more about nonprofit stuff I could tell you about book stuff I can tell you about why all this matters so much to me, wherever you want me to take it. Great. Well, that's why you're here with us today. And yes, you wrote the book. It's the same title as this episode, Dogs, Dog Food and Dogma. And it has been referred to as the most rigorous and probing canine nutrition book ever written. That's pretty remarkable. I like to I'm proud of it. It took me four years is a big project for me. I began it. I mean, it really grew up from… the seeds of it was just a personal note taking exercise, honestly. And then fast forward like four years and I had like, changed careers, produced this 400 page book flown all around the country and you know, put this whole big thing together. But really it all began I was working as a lawyer, and I got my I grew up with dogs, but I got my first dog it was like My dog and I was a single guy living, you know, kind of yuppie big city, lonely type lifestyle, got this dog, he changed my life in a very positive way I got really into him. And through, you know, almost through kind of coincidental or just happenstance, I grew really interested in the subject of obesity in pets. And it sounds super weird and random. But I'm a recreational athlete, I do a lot of like endurance sports stuff, I run long and that kind of thing. And so I was doing, I'd always been interested in the science surrounding that how to get better at that kind of stuff. And it's sort of tied to the doggy world in those, you know, there's like a doggy analogue for that. And my dog was a Rottweiler, big, male, Rottweiler, and like quintessentially Rottweilery. He was intense, big, serious dog needed daily exercise is sort of the take home point here. And so, you know, I like exercise played a role in my personal life, I was trying to understand how to exercise him better, I'm starting to read the relevant studies on that topic. And then I get started learning about the problem of obesity, both with regards to my personal care for my dog, but then the bigger societal problem of it, how just how, the how significant the scale, the problem was, and what began as just me trying to understand what the study said about how to like exercise my dog best, became this big adventure, to try to explain why so many dogs in the country are overweight or obese, even though it's absolutely horrible for them. And even though pet owners have never before in the history of the world, cared more devoted more resources to their their dogs and cats, do you think, given everything we know about how bad obesity is in people and how much everybody knows it's bad for their animals, you’d think this would be the easiest thing in the world. And it's turning out to be the hardest thing in the world, it's more than half the dogs in the country are overweight or obese. So you and I have never met. And I've never had the privilege of meeting any of your dogs. And I'm not casting any aspersions. But as a as a purely numerical matter, it's more likely than not that your dog is over one of your dogs is overweight or obese, more than half that I do pick a dog at random, more likely it's going to be and it's worse for those animals than a lifetime of smoking is for a person. The studies had been done where they follow these dogs out throughout their entire lives. And they look at how long the fat ones live and how long the not so fat ones live. And it turns out that on a percentage basis, if your dog is just moderately overweight, so not like colossally clinically obese, huge animal, but moderately overweight, going to shorten its lifespan, on average by about as much as a human being that smokes cigarettes from the time they're 18 years old until the day they die. horrible problem. doesn't make sense to me. And I spent four years trying to understand the answer, basically. And that's what that's what my book was published in 2016. I've been gratified that it's gotten mostly positive feedback. And it does provide my attempt to explain why that kind of inexplicable situation has arisen. Well, Daniel, you mentioned that you started looking into obesity. And if we look at obesity in ourselves, we can say that poor nutrition and the lack of exercise definitely are the two contributors to that. And in your book, you're talking about scientific misinformation when it comes to animal nutrition, you know, or nutrition for our pets. So what do you think is the root of the problem when it comes down to it? So you're 100%, right, that you can impact fatness using a variety of levers, but kind of the two that moves the needle the most are diet and exercise, right? The main thesis of my book is that number one, the most powerful lever, and essentially the only one that really matters when it comes to dogs and cats is dietary carbohydrates. That consumption of dietary carbohydrate is essentially the fundamental cause of America's pet obesity epidemic, that the vast majority of pet food products being sold on the market today. Whether they are expensive ones or not so expensive ones are loaded up with carbohydrates for a variety of reasons. And the science shows both that what that does at a like molecular cellular level produces fatness. So the studies have been done where it's basically okay what happened a dog eats carbohydrate, what happens within its body that's different than when a dog eats protein, and that stuff's all been worked out. And it explains kind of a process of pathophysiology. Again, there's like kind of technical word that produces more fattening than consumption of other calories for calories and consumption of other nutrients. And so there's this big, fat scientific record. And we're talking about, you know, the same exact study, having been done something like six times last time, six times when I wrote the book, I'm not sure that it's more now a lot of folks have kind of moved away from this topic. But basically, it's really in the world of human nutrition. This is a hard like thesis to test, it's hard to get people to with rigorous control, eat a very specific number of calories, hold their activity levels exactly the same, but differ their macro nutritional intake, if they're taking in carbs or protein for a long enough period of time to measure the differences in their bodies, because people want some degree of freedom in their lives, right, they want to be able to eat what they want, they're not going to like live in what's called a metabolic ward, where we can, you know, evaluate their activity and make sure they're burning the same number of calories. In the world of dogs and cats, not that hard. Like, it's been done half a dozen times, where you just take two different groups of animals that are matched in every way, you make sure that their activity levels are exactly the same. In the world, dogs and cats are not that hard to do. And then you give them diets that are identical in every way, but one the same number of calories. But in one group, some more of those calories come from carbohydrates, and less from protein. And in the other group, it's relatively high protein, relatively low carbohydrate, but again, the exact same number of calories in the exact same amount of exercise out, every single time that study has been done, the same thing happens. The animals that are eating the higher carbohydrate diet get fat, and the animals that are eating the lower carbohydrate diet, don't get fat, right. It's a huge body of evidence. I'm like reading, you know, reading these studies, looking at this stuff, and I'm saying, okay, so this must be the missing link here. Why is nobody talking about this? Why is it that when you pick up a veterinary nutrition textbook, this is not a thesis or a subject that's covered in any significant amount of detail. These studies literally aren't discussed and are literally not sighted. And a big chunk of the book is my attempt to try to explain that why the heck would that be? This is a clear explanation for what we all recognize kind of the biggest nutritional problem in dogs and cats. And it's not in the textbook, what's going on here? And sort of the second half of the book is this big. It's a social exercise, trying to understand why we know what the science says, Okay, why are we not talking about that science? Right. Well, a lot of people don't even realize that dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates. Yet, the majority of these huge dry food/kibble manufacturers have between 30 or 60% carbohydrates. Do you want to talk about that? Well, yeah, yeah, you're first of all, you've got it exactly. Right. Both of those things are true dogs, unlike protein unlike fat. Unlike all kinds of proteins are made up of these nutrients called amino acids. And there's a bunch of different kinds unlike specific amino acids unlike specific vitamins and minerals. Dogs have no nutritional requirements for carbohydrates, super clear in the evidence. If you stop feeding a dog carbohydrates, absolutely nothing bad has ever been shown to happen. Not for dogs that, you know, sometimes people will say, if you run a low carb dog food company, sometimes people will push back on the notion that dogs don't need carbs and say, Well, what about you know, for energy, my dog is a big exercise dog. No. The studies have been done. They put a dog on a treadmill, and they put it and give it a high carbohydrate diet, and they give another dog on a treadmill, zero carbohydrate diet. And there's no real difference in the output. They just metabolize different nutrients for their energy to metabolize fat instead of carbohydrate. So both for exercise and for kind of any other conceivable reason, there's no need for carbohydrate. And when you think about it, and this is covered pretty extensively in my book, dogs’ evolutionary heritage suggests that it shouldn't require carbohydrate to get by in its diet. And that's because dogs are incredibly genetically similar to another but distinct species. Gray wolves. Gray wolves are the quintessential wild animals. Obviously, they're very dog like, obvious to the naked eye if you're not kind of trained up on this stuff. But what's like the degree of the similarity is kind of striking. In a chapter in my book, I lived with the Yellowstone Wolf Project, which is kind of the preeminent place in the United States for the study of grey wolves in the wild. And those people knew everything there is to know about wolves. And basically, wolves and dogs are two distinct species, like in the textbook. They're different species just like, you know, a human being and an orangutan. But they're so similar, that they can interbreed with one another, right? Yes, there are dog wolf hybrids to the tune of hundreds of 1000s of animals in the United States right now. Right. And that's not something that's like, actually kind of suggests they're not really two different species even like, that's like a lot of biologists will. That's how they describe the distinction between one species and another, can they successfully breed with one another. And, you know, at the risk of being weird, or gross or something, a human being and an orangutan cannot make a baby. If they mate that doesn't happen there but two biologically different, they're different species. That's not the case of dogs and wolves are incredibly similar. They're different in really two ways only. And this has all been worked out through genome sequencing studies, folks have figured out the domestic dogs genome, figured out the gray wolf genome and said, where are they the same way they're different. Two areas are different. One is the brain. And this is, think about it for a second is obvious one, you know, wolves are wild animals. And they have some degree of suggestibility in their behavior, but their brains are wired for to be wild animals really, whereas the dog has been through generations of selective breeding has developed the kind of brain and thereby the kind of behavior that we all know and love, they bond with people, etc. The other difference is the one that matters for this discussion, though, and that's that wolves don't digest carbohydrate very well at all. Daniel, I'm gonna stop you there because that's a great point. We are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Welcome back, everybody. We're speaking with Daniel Schulof and we were just talking about the similarities of our modern day dog versus the gray wolf. They are direct descendants and share over 90% of the same DNA. So you just mentioned Daniel that the brain differences between wolf and dog. And now we're gonna get into the need of carbohydrates. So take it away. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so dogs and wolves, they were the same species, they occupied the exact same genetic lineage up till essentially 10,000 years ago. So there is a dispute about it. But it's something like that. So for hundreds of millions of generations, they were the exact same species. And wolves continue to live as they've always lived. They live in the wild. And you talk to the folks the Yellowstone Wolf Project, or anyone else who knows the subject, well, they'll tell you they eat 0.00% carbohydrates. They eat essentially meat and nothing else. And, in fact, not just that they don't eat carbohydrates, but they don't eat it. And so their bodies aren't designed to metabolize this stuff very well. Unlike domestic dogs, and this is like kind of a second big difference between dogs and wolves. wolves don't produce one kind of enzyme in their saliva that both dogs and people produce called amylase. And amylase is used to break down carbohydrate molecules into individual molecules of glucose like, that's what happens when a complex carbohydrate goes from being in a loaf of bread to actually being in your blood. What it does is basically your digestive system breaks it down into individual molecules of glucose, like sugar. And amylase is like the what does the heavy lifting there, it's in your saliva. And it's like if you hold a piece of bread in your mouth for a while, it'll start to taste sweet. And the reason for that is because that's your salivary amylase Breaking down the chains of carbohydrate in that piece of bread into individual molecules glucose that taste sweet. And dogs over time, have evolved the ability to do that reasonably well. Wolves never have. So what we know from that is that up till 10,000 years ago, neither one of these species could consume carbohydrates in any significant amount. just over the past 10,000 years, which in the evolutionary scale thinks is the blink of an eye. Dogs have figured out through selective breeding, have gotten the ability to digest carbohydrate, they actually can pull nutrition out of it. That's not to say they can do it healthfully. And in fact, they cannot do it healthfully. But that's sort of how we know that like, no, a dog doesn't need carbohydrate, for energy, or for anything else there for 99.9% of their genetic evolution, they did just fine. wolves performed astounding amounts of physical work as a matter of daily existence. And they do it without any carbohydrate at all. And using fat as fuel correct? That's right, that is their primary fuel source and your body. a wolf’s body, dog's body has more than enough fat on hand at any given point, and all that the most extreme cases, to power all sorts of much more physical activity than any house pet would ever be asked to perform. Right. And Daniel, you believe that this carbohydrate consumption that most of our dogs have, is the main reason for most of the chronic diseases that we're seeing today? So I'll give you a quick bullet point summary of the state of the evidence on a variety of on obesity, I would say that the evidence is 10 out of 10, iron clad lock, that if you took dietary carbohydrate, out of the American pet food ecosystem, you would not have a significant obesity problem among pets. This study has never been done. This is Dan Schulof’s personal belief. But I would bet my house on it, you cannot make a dog get and stay obese. Unless you feed it carbohydrates. You could in a laboratory setting, stuff it, force feed it like a goose being made for Foie gras or whatever, with enough calories of fat and protein that you can make it that way. But its appetite and its natural homeostatic regulation is such that it will never just maintain that state. It will not consistently overeat. Whereas carbohydrates are quite different. So yes, I believe the carbohydrate at the 10 out of 10 Evidence couldn't be more clear is the fundamental cause of obesity. other chronic diseases that are common among pets, there are three where there's at least some degree of evidence. They are number one, diabetes, and other kinds of metabolic disorders like that. Right now, the standard of care obscenely, the standard of care for a dog that shows up with diabetes in the veterinary office is a prescription only pet food product, costs a fortune, and is kibble and it's about 40% digestible carbohydrate. And if you're anybody that knows anything about diabetes, and how it works, that should make your jaw fall open. Because what it means is that 40% of the calories that animal is taking in are going to enter the bloodstream as sugar, like carbohydrate during digestion doesn't matter if the complex carbohydrates, simple carbohydrate, any kind of digestible carbohydrate, during digestion becomes the exact same thing. Glucose, it's the one thing that a dog with diabetes cannot dispose of in its body appropriately, what diabetes is, is an inability to manage blood sugar spikes. And the one thing dietarily That causes the most pronounced blood sugar spikes is a big bolus of dietary carbohydrate. And yet, the prescription the standard of care in veterinary offices is feed this product that's 40% digestible carbohydrate. And even though the literature couldn't be more clear, couldn't be more of a, you know, an ironclad lock, either, that if you take all the carbohydrate out of the animal's diet, it’s postprandial blood sugar comes way down, and so it's need to have exogenous insulin shots goes way down as well. That's diabetes. There are others where it's like more tangential, there's promising evidence, but it's not. It would be irresponsible for me to say it's anything like those two, and those are like osteoarthritis, which has been found basically to track with obesity reasonably well. And I think stands to reason that if you get rid of the obesity problem, you get rid of the chronic osteoarthritis epidemic as well and kind of, you know, the one that gets a lot of attention, but the record is not as well developed yet is cancer. You know, if there’s any epidemic of non communicable diseases in the United States pet population that's worse than obesity, cancer, you know, you're talking about something like a quarter of the dogs in the country, maybe more depends who you ask, will get that disease in their lifetime. And there are communities of folks and scientific folks who believe that essentially what's going on there is dietary carbohydrate, becomes glucose during digestion. And glucose is the preferred source of fast growing tumors, that's what they feed on. If you take if you've ever had the, and you probably have had the unfortunate experience of bringing your dog into the vet, and having what's called a PET scan, performed on the animal to try to locate any tumors that might be in it’s body. What that process is, is basically what a PET scan is, is a machine looking for parts of your dog's body that are burning glucose for energy at a higher rate than the stuff around it, it shows up the colors up on the image, if you see like a specific spot that's burning a lot of glucose, that's what a PET scan is, and the tumors light up. Because tumors like glucose, they grow really fast. And glucose is like their rocket fuel. And so just like in the same way, that if you want to make sure that your diabetic dog doesn't have huge blood sugar spikes after a meal, you want to if you want to reduce the amount of glucose that's available for a tumor, you can just cut down the amount of carbohydrates in the diet, that stuff is a very coherent theory. And there are plenty of folks who are trying to develop the record around it. But it would not be responsible to say at this point, we know with clarity, that if you take the carbohydrate out of a dog's diet, it's cancer risk goes down. That's not something that record shows, but there's some degree of you for a problem that has we've struggled to come up with good explanations for it. If nothing else, it's like a very compelling place to be spending our scientific resources at this point. Sure. Well, Daniel, as we're coming to a close, if these dogs food companies that are including such high amounts of carbohydrates in their products know about this, what is the end game? Is it just for profit, and using cheaper materials and ingredients in their products? Yeah, so basically, the reasons that carbohydrate is so why I always say carbohydrates are the backbone of the US pet food ecosystem. And the reason that it is human food. Yes, that's right. That's right, it is quite so. But it's like kind of two main things, at least in the pet food world, but largely in the human world too. the first is cost. And it's the most important one, as somebody that now runs a pet food company, I can tell you with first hand knowledge that a calorie of meat based protein costs, something like at least something like eight to 10 times as much as the calorie of agriculture based carbohydrate, a calorie from corn, say. And so if you are to take a product that is 40% digestible carbohydrate, and turn that into 40%, if you're gonna swap out all that carbohydrate for meat based protein, the cost for the producer to make that product is going to skyrocket to the point that doesn't it just cut into their profit margins, it completely blows up the business model. You can't do it like if, you know, I'm not going to pick your favorite legacy kibble company, if they're going to try to roll out a zero carbohydrate product, they're going to price it at $400 a bag to make the same margin that they're making right now. So obviously a big part of the system for that reason. And then secondly, for a really long time. Those that make pet food thought you needed to use carbohydrates to actually make kibble like if you you know, there are a lot of people these days, I'm kind of one of them that thinks that it's bad for humans to eat carbohydrate too and if you're somebody that thinks that way, but you still think that carbohydrate rich foods taste really good. One thing that you tried to do is you try to make zero or low carbohydrate versions. And if you've ever tried or if anybody listening has ever tried to make a loaf of very low carbohydrate bread, like if you try to make bread without flour, you'll know that it doesn't work it like the dough falls apart is part of what carbohydrate does is this functional thing in food products when you heat it up, it gelatinizes and holds all the ingredients together and it makes dough into you know, biscuits or bagels or whatever. And kind of like in a very basic level, like kibble was made basically the same way you mix all these ingredients together and heat them up and then you suck out the water You get little nuggets. And the nuggets are held together by carbohydrates. And so for a long time, if you take the unfortunate nutritional science out of the equation, if you take the chronic diseases out of the equation, it's a fantastic innovation, it makes this great shelf stable product, very convenient, provides the dog with the nutrition that it needs to prevent development of deficiencies. And so for a long time, it was like this is, this is a great thing, and the whole pet food industry is built around it. And then later, it became clear that oops, this stuff is actually bad for the health of these animals. And at that point, you're already dealing with this multibillion dollar industry. And rather than trying to react to that nutritional science reality, they tried to go through this prolonged process of trying to fight repress secure the truth about it. And that's, that's the status of things right now. It's like, we're in an era that sort of like smoking in like the 1950s. Like, there's this big body of research that's like, smoking looks like it gives you lung cancer, but the general public that hasn't gotten fully through to them yet. And the reason for that is because the folks who stand to lose billions of dollars if they do become aware of that are fighting, and you got basically the exact same thing happening in the pet food world too. I think, as you said, I think more and more pet parents want to be better educated, and want to be the best advocate for their animal. So I want to thank you, first of all, for your book, I know that we just scratched the surface on this interview. So I will put the link to the book in the show notes. And as we are wrapping up, Daniel, I know that you also started a nonprofit, the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council, can you briefly just tell us how that came to be? Absolutely. Thank you for giving me a chance to do that, because it's my kind of newest thing, and I'm really excited about it. So one of the ways that the pet food industry is doing a really good job about obscuring the truth about the dietary consequences of carbohydrate for companion animals, is the nutritional science research community is driven entirely by funding from pet food companies. Unlike in the human domain, there's no like National Institutes of Health that exists to provide funding for interesting, useful research. If you are a nutritional scientist working in the veterinary domain, you get your money from pet food period. That's it. Some of it comes from Legacy kibble companies. Some of it comes from alternative type upstart things, but all of it, with very few exceptions comes from the pet food industry. I think that is one of the that's a problem, right? No real statistics that you can imagine, that's going to result in some things that are really useful for pet owners not getting studied if they're not good for industry. And so the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council was conceptualized to address that problem. And basically, the idea is that we solicit individual donations from members that are individual pet owners only accepting only small dollar donations, we don't accept a single dollar from any kind of organizational entity. So my company Keto Natural Pet Foods can't give a penny to it. And I as an individual can't give any more than you, Krista could give if you are so inclined. And what we do is we aggregate donations and use them to provide grants to nutritional science research that actually matters for pet food companies. We're brand new, just founded we debuted the thing on Giving Tuesday Thanksgiving of 2022. So we have yet to make our first grant. There's a ton more information about us on our website, which is Pet Food Consumer Rights Council. I bet your listeners have all sorts of questions about it. And I encourage them to go check out the site because there's all kinds of helpful info about how our governance works to prevent conflicts of interest, including the ones that I have from influencing our main operations, and just kind of all the other nuts and bolts of it. But yeah, I'm super excited about it. It's, you know, we don't know if it'll be successful at this point. But if it if we can make it successful if it can perform the function that it's supposed to perform, which is to take on a reasonable bit of money from the 70 plus million dog owners in the United States, every year, that we can sit at the table to fund to provide funding for research that really matters that it's not just good for the industry. Thank you for trying to make a difference. It's so important. Daniel, we are out of time. But where can everybody find more information about you, Keto Natural Pet Foods and the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council? The only one that I'll be specific about is Pet Food Consumer Rights Council/org. That's the website for that organization. It’s too infant for it to do really well in Google If that makes sense, like if you research pet food, nonprofit, you might not find it. Everything else I'm about the easiest doggy person to find on the internet. Just look for me pet food, you know, Daniel Schulof. I'm active on Twitter and other social media platforms. My book is on Amazon and all the other places, Keto Natural Pet Foods is easy to find. Shouldn't be too hard for anybody that's made it this far. And I'll give all the links in the show notes. And Daniel, thank you for all of your work. Thank you, Krista. Yeah, thank you for giving me the chance to talk. And hopefully, everybody learned something new. And again, there's so much more to learn the science is out there. So do your homework, everybody. And Daniel. Thanks again for your time today. You're welcome. Thank you, Krista. It's been my pleasure. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code wol10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or

Hey there this is Krista with Episode #172 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've tried on my dog Winston and that I know, like and trust. And these products will also help your dog to thrive. So just go to https://www.wagoutloud.com/ and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life.? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well. It's filled with some very important information for you and your dog. While we humans breathe in and breathe out the same way, our dogs breathe in through their nostrils and then out through their slits that are found on the sides of their noses. And this circulates air so that your pup is always bringing in new smells. And breeds like bloodhounds also have the advantage of floppy ears. And that pushes up new smells. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. As an animal lover her entire life, Alex Roberts mission is to help every pet live their longest, happiest lives. She has been using holistic remedies on wildlife and pets since she was a young child, and now has 18 years of professional experience in the pet industry. After receiving her Clinical Pet Nutritionist certification, she started Healing Bay Pet Nutrition LLC to dive deeper into helping more pets benefit from the world of holistic modalities, especially those suffering from chronic disease. Well, hello dog lovers, we are going to learn something new today as I chat with Alex Roberts about the 5 things you don't know about canine kidney disease. Alex, welcome to the show! Hi, Krista. Thank you, I'm really excited to finally be here. I know we set this up so long ago, and the day is here. And I can't wait to learn from you. So before we get started, I'm going to ask you to please introduce yourself. And tell us why you wanted to cover this topic of kidney disease on the show today. Yeah, so my name is Alex Roberts. And I of course am a lifetime animal lover of all creatures great and small. But I became a certified clinical pet nutritionist a few years ago, and I started a business doing one on one consults with pet owners. And due to the nature of being a nutritionist, I see so much chronic disease. And it's chronic disease that from a holistic perspective is very preventable in a lot of ways. And many cases, from a conventional perspective, not necessarily. But with that holistic scope and through a holistic lens, we can do so much more to help these patients in chronic disease states. So that's why I'm here today is hopefully to help some more dogs and maybe cats because a lot of things are pretty similar across the board with the two. Hopefully help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. That's what it's all about. Well, let's get into this. Kidney Failure is really an irreversible process. And studies show that one in 10 dogs suffer from kidney disease. So is it true that an early diagnosis can help your dog survive longer? Can Kidney Disease be Cured? Yes, I definitely agree with that statistic. It's something that I do see, I think, a disproportionately high amount of these cases. Again, just sort of because of the nature of being a nutritionist, I get all these chronic disease cases versus being a veterinary clinician, you're seeing chronic disease and acute disease. So like you know, viral infections, things like that. Those are most common things that would fall into the acute disease category, or injuries and as a nutritionist, I'm not seeing those things. So across the board, that you know, about 10% of dogs are diagnosed with renal failure or chronic kidney disease at some point in their life is true and for me personally it is a massive amount of my patients. It's around like 40% of my personal patients have renal failure or chronic kidney disease, which is it's horrible because it's not reversible. But I want owners, caretakers, pet lovers to know that there are things you can do. It's not like this totally hopeless, you know, black hole that your, your fur baby has been diagnosed with. There's a lot more you can do. It's just that we can't completely reverse it, unfortunately. Right. Well, let's dumb it down. For those of us, you know, we have kidneys too. But can you tell us what is the function of the kidneys? What is the Function of the Kidneys? Yeah, so the kidneys are our major filters in our bodies. And generally, when I use the word, our I'm referring to mammals. So dogs, cats, humans, elephants, mice, horses, we do have a lot in common, but we all have a lot of differences we have a lot in common too. And our kidneys all work the same way. So they're filtering out all of the… well, I shouldn’t say all of… because almost all of our organs have their own waste products that they filter out. But the kidneys are our major waste product filtering device, so and they're able to rid our body of these harmful metabolic wastes through urine, which is a sort of beautifully simple mechanism compared to some other metabolic processes in the body. But definitely don't have time to get into that today. That could be like, many hours long. Conversation, even though it's relatively simple And I think I read, which is not good that typically, kidney disease goes undetected until the organs are functioning at only 33 to 25% of their capacity. How is Kidney Failure Diagnosed? I'm glad you brought that up. It's something I wanted to mention. So it's true. And it's something that even though so this is kind of weird. So even though we know that to be true, so the blood and urine markers that we're looking for when diagnosing kidney disease, they're not going to flag kidney disease until they're down to that sort of 1/3 or less function. We simultaneously once we've diagnosed it, have no way of knowing what percentage of function is actually left. That's a little bit of a weird paradox, which isn't helpful doesn't make things any better. But there are there are really only a few markers that we're looking at in the blood, urine gets a little more complicated because there are markers in the urine that can be indicative of a lot of other things. But normally, your vet will run a blood test first and if they suspect kidney disease, then they'll do a urinalysis to verify that those markers they’re looking for are there. But in the blood traditionally, we look at BUN, which is blood urea nitrogen and creatinine, which if anyone out there is a workout enthusiast, they might take a creatine supplement, and creatinine is then the waste product after your body metabolizes creatine, and some ends up in the urine, some in the blood. So we're looking for basically how much creatine how much urea are in the blood. When those become excessively high. That was really traditionally our only way to say we're diagnosing this pet with renal failure, kidney disease. So recently, there is a new marker called SDMA. And it's nice because you look at SDMA, and if SDMA is over 14, which is this nice, cute little number, then you can say allegedly. Okay, we are in renal failure we are we have chronic kidney disease. The generally accepted consensus is that this new SDMA is the best marker that we have for more accurately diagnosing kidney disease. But it's again, it's far from perfect, and it's something that honestly, we just don't know enough about. There are vets that are like, I don't trust this whole SDMA thing. I'm putting, you know, no faith in it whatsoever. Because it is relatively new, and although we think it's the best marker we have, we don't even really know how accurate it is. Yeah, even diagnosing kidney disease is really far from straightforward. Right. But I guess this goes to show that, you know, annual physicals, at least for your dog, and at least the annual blood panels along with that gives you a blueprint or a base of how to read the values in the future. So you have something to compare, correct? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Any, vet out there will, you know, no matter how conventional they are, will tell you, you know, they'd love to get a blood sample from your dog every year, even if they're totally healthy. And it's extremely important as they get older, I would argue the older they get, the more important it is, again, no matter how healthy they seem, specifically because of their kidneys. But on top of that, at any age, you really should ideally be getting blood every year, again, no matter how healthy they seem. Because although within a given for every marker within that blood test, there's a given set of values, a low end and a high end. That is averaged throughout a certain population of dogs that was originally you know, taken to establish those values. Your dog could have a normal for them that's above or below. And that goes for anything. So that to me, by itself is a great reason, just to as soon as you get your dog get blood done, and just keep doing it at least once a year. There's no such thing as too much honestly, but once a year, just a nice convenient time when they go into their physical. Okay, so are there any outward signs that your dog is experiencing kidney disease? Signs of Kidney Disease? Yeah, the most simple is when they start drinking a lot and start urinating a lot, which can also be a sign that the other big thing that that's a sign of is diabetes, it can be a sign of a bunch of other things too. But honestly, that sort of a big one to look out for. And it's a little tricky because especially if it's a multi dog household, it can be hard to tell how much your dog is drinking. But that really just goes back on how important it is to keep keep up on the bloodwork and you know again, the older they get, the more important it is to keep up on their bloodwork. Okay, well all good information. And we are going to take a quick sponsor break. But when we come back, Alex promised in the beginning that there are things we can do holistically to help treat canine kidney disease, also known as renal failure. And we're gonna get into that so everybody hold tight, we will be right back. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we're back with Alex Roberts and Alex, you are getting into the nitty gritty now what everybody wants to hear about the holistic approaches to treating canine kidney disease. So you mentioned that about 40% of your clients are experiencing kidney disease. Why do you think that's on the rise? What is happening to our dogs? Why Is Canine Kidney Disease on the Rise? Yeah. So the conventional wisdom is, honestly, the conventional wisdom in this case is there really is no good answer. But the holistic wisdom is that there are very clear answers. And unfortunately, a multitude of causes. So the epidemic as some like to refer to it as of kibble. And just mass processed food being fed seems to be a there seems to be a really big causative link there. And I do have a specific definition for that, as well. On top of those two really big, standalone factors, you have a ton of other environmental factors. And technically vaccinations and food are both environmental factors. But flea and tick prevention chemicals, heartworm chemicals, what is in your water supply, house chemicals, lawn chemicals, such just so many factors, laundry chemicals, it's just everything, you know, all these little things that we're starting to see more issues in humans that we're linking to these chemicals that have come up in our lives. And unfortunately, our pets are suffering the same way. But I want to I want to go back to my statement on over vaccinating and specifically what I mean by that. So I personally believe that vaccines should you should have these individual tailored approach to what vaccines are or are not appropriate for your individual pets in your individual area for your individual lifestyle, because those are all things that factor into whether or not vaccine do or don’t make sense for your pet. And we're not going to get into the whole vaccine thing. Because yet again, that can be its own conversation. But I just want to make it clear that I you know, I don't believe that no vaccines is the answer. But unfortunately, in vet school, we're taught the standard operating procedure for vaccines, which is based on the vaccine company’s recommendation. And it's really not based on good science, all of the good science tells us that we do not need any vaccine every year. But the other unfortunate reality is that that's how, as veterinarians, we make most of our money. So just something to keep in mind. Thank you. So if I were to simplify all of this, you know, you mentioned the kidneys are really a filter. And because we're living in environments that are so toxic, you know, you just went through the list. Kibble, over vaccinating, and all the environmental chemicals that our dogs live with, is it that the toxic load to the kidneys is just so overwhelming, especially as they're getting older, and therefore they're in that disease state. Is it that simple? Yeah, I honestly, I think that is the perfect way to try to simplify and sum it all up. 100%. That's perfect. And with that toxic load, and you know, as we get older, all of our organs just need to work a little harder, but the kidneys, in all mammals, again, they just tend to naturally wear out with age, you know, really old humans no matter how well they take care of themselves, their whole lives. And their kidneys tend to wear out. It's just one of those things that eventually happens. And some pets now are living to extremely old age. Unfortunately, average age is decreasing, but you have some that are living longer and that can you know, that certainly factors into the average as well when no matter how well they're cared for their whole lives. Kidneys just wear out is the unfortunate reality of being a living, breathing creature, with kidneys. Well, let's talk about how we can holistically approach a dog that has kidney disease? What are your recommendations to help support what kidney function they do have? How to Holistically Approach Canine Kidney Disease Yeah, so probably predictably, I'm gonna say the number one biggest one is food. And although I do say that with just about every chronic disease, honestly, any holistic or integrative veterinarian or clinician will agree with me, it's not just because I'm a nutritionist that I say this, I promise. It really is. It's the basis of everything. And the way I like to look at food, too, is, you know, not just because it's what fuels every process in our body. So of course, it's important, but it's the one really major determinant that we have complete control over when it comes to gene expression. So honestly, as far as I'm concerned, I believe every disease out there, especially all of the common chronic ones, have some form of genetic component. And there's nothing we can do to change our pet’s pedigree, genes, family history, right? We have no control over that. But what we eat, does control how many of our genes express proteins, which is just how all the cells in our bodies function with pretty much everything. So food is just so so important. I don't even know how to drive home how important it is. But that's, that's my, that's my way that I hope makes sense to someone at least, to really drive that home at home. So what does that look like? Then? You know, what food do I feed an animal that kidneys are struggling? So number one, and conventional and holistic veterinarians will both tell you this. So this is a good one. It's not super confusing. Unlike everything else out there is moisture is super important. Moisture is the number one most important factor. And so along with that, you know, kibble is not only extremely low moisture content, but it is so dry that when your pet eats it, it literally sucks moisture out of their body just in order to be able to digest it. So I think kibble has a place. You know, I think everyone needs to do what they can for their pet, I do not believe in you not being able to buy groceries for the week to feed your pet. Think that your your pet is lucky to have you have someone that loves them and feeds them. So you know, everyone needs to do what they can do within reason for them. But if at all possible, this is really, really a disease that we want to avoid kibble. Canned commercial food is even a lot better. However, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan, because it can be really expensive. There are actually a lot of better food options out there that are less expensive than a canned food. So on top of all of that, your veterinarian will often supply you with some subcutaneous fluids that you can do at home. And it sounds really scary. But most animals do really well with it, and your vet will go over how to administer them with you. It's not as scary as it sounds, and it's totally worth it. And if it's not something your vet mentioned, ask them about it. Because what I found is a lot of times vets won't bring it up unless the pet is in really advanced renal failure. So I recommend all my clients after but about it if that hasn't already brought it up to them because I've seen it make a really big difference. Good point. Yep. For subcutaneous so you know, we're not talking IV where you know, have to hunt down a vein on your animal, blood everywhere. Like there's no blood. It's a tiny little skinny poke, like between their shoulder blades. And it's a lot of people just think like, oh, that sounds so scary. I could never do that. But then once your vet shows you how to do it. It really is like, oh, okay, I can handle that. I've done it. So yes, I agree. We have to wrap up shortly. So I wanted you to have a chance to tell us more about optimal diet. What should it include and what should it not? So the next big one after moisture is protein. And this is really confusing because there's so much contradicting information out there. If you have a conventional veterinarian, normally, they will tell you, you need to decrease protein in the diet. However, there's actually zero, good science, zero data that supports lower protein, helping the kidneys at all. But what we do believe to be really important is the quality of the protein. So again, unfortunately, I feel like I'm bashing processed food this whole time. And you know, again, it's not ideal, but gotta do what you can do, the more heavily processed the food is. So canned food, and kibble are really at the top of the most processed list. With the poor quality, the protein normally is going into it. But no matter what the quality originally was, the more it is heated, the less bioavailable it becomes, which basically means as far as the body is concerned, it's poor quality protein. So the less processed the protein is, the better. So in a perfect world, best case scenario is you make a homemade diet tailored to your individual critter. And you know, with all of the perfect balance everything to make their kidneys happy. That's not realistic for a lot of people. And I get that some of my favorite options going with a commercial food, Steve’s Real Food (use code WOL 20 for 20% off) is a frozen, actually they make a freeze dried as well. But freeze dried, it's always going to be dry. So unless you're adding moisture back in, I do recommend frozen. It's a frozen raw commercial diet, but is a really nice balance of everything. There are a bunch of other brands I like too. Steve's is really good. Honestly, it's a good bang for your buck, a great price per pound. And it's just a really nice balance of nutrients, specifically for animals in renal failure. What about supplements? Should we adding anything? So there are definitely some things to add. One thing you do want to watch out for, and this is something that even conventional vets will often say is you want decreased phosphorus. And this is something that depends on the individual patient. This isn't necessarily true for every patient in renal failure. But the best way to do that when at least we're thinking of what supplements to add, or maybe you are homemaking food, you don't want to add bone to the diet or bone meal to the diet. But instead you can add egg shell. And long story short that is a source of calcium with minimal phosphorus. So reading labels for bone really and making sure they don't have a bunch of bone or bone meal is important with any supplements. And that one is really specific to kidney disease. I just want to let people know, in healthy animals, I'm a big fan of bone is really specifically in this case that I recommend that but some other supplements to add. So number one is a probiotic, I've seen some supplements on the market that I've had some vets recommend that are called like dialysis in a bottle or something. And it's literally probiotics and it's like two strains of bacteria. Like oh, that's quite the quite the claim you're making there. Probiotics are really, really important for so many reasons. And along with a probiotic. So having the actual live bacteria in there. You do want to have a prebiotic ruscoe oligo saccharides to be sort of the best option, but as long as there's some kind of probiotic, some kind of fiber in there. Normally it makes it much more available in the digestive tract. And a bonus is adding a digestive enzyme along with the probiotic and prebiotic that's like your your perfect world if you get that trifecta. So another another one that I can recommend just across the board is some form of glandular or freeze dried kidney. So we feed kidneys to support the kidneys, very traditional Chinese medicine approach to things and there have been studies done on it over the years. Not a ton of great science has gone into it honestly. Some studies have shown that it's really helped Some studies have shown that it just doesn't do anything. But there's nothing out there to show that it could hurt. So it's like a why not. And honestly, it's something that I personally have had a lot of success with. And it's not terribly expensive. So it's just like, it can't hurt. I've had really good luck with it, and it doesn't cost a ton of money. So it's on the top of my recommendation list. Next one, that is again, just blanket recommendation this, this goes for anyone is some kind of fish oil. I really like recommending a krill oil, probably the most widely “available” fish oils are either salmon or Pollock oil. The only reason I don't love those as much is because they're big, predatory fish. So they end up with biomagnification of contaminants in their tissues, which means basically, by the time you are consuming the oil from that fish, you're getting more heavy metals and other yucky things that you don't want to be consuming. Whereas if you're consuming krill at the bottom of the food chain, you're getting minimal to none of those contaminants. So tends to be a little bit more expensive, but you need less of it as well. So, okay, kind of balances itself out. And there are lots of good brands out there. I don't really have you know, one brand that's like my favorite or anything. So do your research. Well, Alex, we are already past our time. So I know you're just going to mention a few herbs, if you could mention those. And then yeah, we'll talk about an offer that you're making. Herbs that Can Help Okay, so my last little tidbit, these are a little bit more individualized, but dandelions, specifically dandelion leaf, Hawthorn herb, astragalus, and marshmallow herbs can all be really helpful. But it does depend a little bit on the individual patient, but none are going to hurt anyone, none hurt to try. All right. Oh, my gosh, this is such good information. Well, Alex, as we're wrapping up, you were telling me that you are putting a course together that should hopefully be out by the time that this episode releases. Can you tell us about the offer that you're making? OFFER Yeah, so I am diligently trying to get this course completely finished. By the time this is out, and if it's not quite 100% Finished. By the time this is out. I am enabling an email, sign up so that you're notified as soon as it is out. And that’s on my website, I'm sure will be attached to this. But I am going to offer 20% off of that course to all of your fabulous listeners. And what is the course about.? So this course is going to be a individualized deeper dive into kidney disease. Like I said, it's just something I see so much of it's something that I really see. See a need for even though it is it's more of a niche. It's not something that applies to everyone, but I am specifically keeping in mind, pet caregivers and lovers that don't have an animal that currently is in renal failure, you know, so I'm keeping in mind the prevention side as well. So this is something that benefits everyone, even if you don't have you know, even if you have a young healthy animal, there's still going to be really good information in here for you because unfortunately, it's such a common disease. I'm glad that you're tackling this. So if you go to Alex's website https://www.healingbaypet.com/ and sign up and just mention the show, she's going to give a 20% discount off of this amazing course. So as we leave here today, Alex, where can everyone find out more information about you and your company Healing Bay Pet Nutrition? Yeah, so my website is the best place to go. I don't think I mentioned that during the podcast, but I am a full time veterinary student, so any references made to veterinarian just because I do know firsthand I am in those shoes as well. Due to that consuming my entire life right now. I am atrocious at keeping up on social media but I do have an Instagram I have a Facebook and I have a LinkedIn. Instagram is the only thing that I like remotely kept up on and it's still far from it. But my instagram handle is @healingbay.pet.nutrition. All right, and Social media: IG: https://www.instagram.com/healingbay.pet.nutrition/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/HealingBayPetNutrition/ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-eaton-9457701b9/ All right, and all of this, the URL and the social media links are all going to be in the show notes for everybody. And since we're out of time, I am going to say thank you, Alex, for taking this on. Unfortunately, we're seeing a rise as you said, it's an epidemic of kidney disease and kidney failure. But it's all about educating people. And that's what you're doing. And we're very grateful. Oh, good. I really hope that there's some some animals that can benefit from this today. Absolutely. Well, thank you, everybody. Check out https://www.healingbaypet.com/ for more information. Thanks, Alex. Thank you. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #171 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. You know when you're on the couch and your dog stretches out next to you and lets out a long sigh? Well, that means that they're happy. They're soft vocalizations such as sighs and maybe some low groans, those are signs of contentment in dogs. So your dog snuggling up and sighing doesn't mean they're bored. It actually means that they feel safe and comfortable right by your side. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello dog lovers and thanks for tuning in to a another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. Today we have the pleasure of learning from Caragh Reilly, and she is going to chat with us about It's Not Just a Spa Day, but how therapeutic massage can actually benefit the health and mobility of dogs at every life stage. Caragh, thank you so much for being with us today. So appreciate it. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, I want to first ask if you can please introduce yourself and share with us what got you interested in canine massage in the first place? Absolutely. So I've been doing canine massage for just about 5-5 1/2 years now. I was in a corporate career for much of my life and felt that something was missing. I adopted my dog after about 10 years ago and it kind of reignited my passion for all things dog. And I decided that it was time to make a bit of a life change and find a career that felt a little bit more fulfilling and rewarding for me. So I took a little bit of a break from my corporate life, started taking some classes and found canine massage and just absolutely fell in love with the work. And I'm sure Oscar is totally in love with you doing the massage. He's not too disappointed. Oh, that's so cool. Well, why don't we break it down? What exactly is canine massage because as we alluded to in the title, you know, we think of going to the spa. And there's different techniques, you know, it could be more fluff or more hardcore, like, you know, Swedish or Rolfing. So what exactly does that mean, when we talk about massage for our dogs? What is Canine Massage? Yeah, I mean, it can mean a lot of different things. And really, there's applications for massage for every dog at every stage of their life. But you know, while certainly massage has tremendous relaxation benefits, just like we know, when we go to the spa, I think sometimes we overlook the clinical benefits of bodywork, and how it really impacts the body not just emotionally in terms of triggering a relaxation state, but also physiologically helping address pain, helping address tension, and kind of providing benefits throughout the body and to every body system. I think it's a pretty incredible modality because it does impact every body system, and really can be used for almost any dog based on whatever they're going through both emotionally and physically. Okay, and we're talking just about muscles, so soft tissue, right? Soft tissue, I mean, but you know, that also includes muscle, connective tissue, like fascia in the body. So you know, all of that carries tension and is impacted by you know, whatever is going on in the body and from your health condition. So it's not just tension relief, but it increases circulation and has tons of other benefits, which I'm sure we'll get to talking about during this during this talk. Well, I think we're there. So let's unpack some of those benefits. Benefits of Canine Massage Awesome. Yeah, I think that a lot of people when they think about massage for their dog, they probably naturally go towards addressing, you know, arthritis and stiffness for dogs that are seniors. And certainly a lot of the clients are just that and certainly has wonderful benefits for geriatric care. But I think what's so exciting about this work is that it can offer so much variety if you choose to work with all sorts of different types of dogs. So I like to share just how it can affect dogs at different life stages to give some examples. So, I have a couple of clients that are actually puppies. I think the youngest one that I'm working with now is six months. And how massage can really help is to start acclimating dogs to intentful touch, which is essentially massage. Massage is touch with intent to get them used to handling. And it's a great way to set them up for a lifetime of success with handling at, you know, professionals like groomers or the vet. I've also worked with dogs that are skittish or weary of touch. So by introducing positive touch early, you can help socialize the dog. And then I also really work with a lot of young dogs where they're exuberant and active and throwing their bodies around and running around at the dog park. And as you can imagine, when you're overactive like that your body can hurt, even if you're young and agile, and healthy. And so by really interceding early with body work, you can prevent injury down the road, and keep them moving and feeling their best as they grow. I never thought about it that way. But that really makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and I mean, certainly, so that's just one example is puppies, but as they transition into adulthood, I do a lot of preventative care where clients have me work with their dog just to really keep them moving and feeling their best and to prevent kind of health issues and tensions from becoming bigger problems down the road. And certainly, I'm involved a lot with dogs who are undergoing injuries or have gone through surgeries, that have a lot of orthopedic conditions that dogs are prone to such as tearing CCLs or suffering from luxating patellas, where their kneecap pops out of the groove. And these are all issues which are either dogs are either going through rehab for or have been surgically corrected. And massage and bodywork is a tremendous modality for helping them heal through that process. Well, you talk about healing, is it because through massage, you are actually improving the blood flow? Is that why it helps? Does it Improve Blood Flow? It's a great question. It's one of the primary benefits is increasing circulation. So what keeps soft tissue healthy in the body is by having blood flow come in because it brings oxygen. Tissue needs oxygen to be healthy. So when we increase and boost that circulation in the body, we're helping bring in that great oxygen to the tissues and also flushing waste products out of the tissues as well. So it is definitely a primary benefit. And one of the key physiological reasons to consider massage. That makes sense. And what is massage doing to actually reduce pain? Is there an anti inflammatory effect? Does It Reduce Pain? Yeah, certainly by you know, as I said, bringing in some increased circulation, you're bringing nutrients into the tissue, which can help tissue heal. You're flushing, waste and byproducts out. But it's also really impacting the nervous system, and the pain signals that are going into the brain. So by stimulating the nervous system, you're triggering something in the body, that's called a parasympathetic response, which is the body’s state of rest and relaxation. And you're also not to totally geek out on you, but you're bringing a lot of tactile stimuli to the brain. And there are some theories that, you know, if your brain is registering some of those tactile stimulations, they're not getting the pain signals as loudly in the brain. So it helps diffuse that sensation of pain. So you're kind of addressing pain on two fronts, one on the nervous system and just kind of tricking your brain to say, hey, this feels good, and it's not as painful. But then you're also physiologically addressing some of the pain by you know, helping the tissue heal. I never thought about that. That makes sense, though. And you mentioned you know that it helps to relax a dog and alleviate their stress. Does that mean that massage would actually lower their blood pressure as well? Lower Blood Pressure? Yeah, absolutely. Blood pressure, it definitely has a nice stress reducing anti anxiety effect. It's another group of dogs that really can benefit from bodywork. I've worked with dogs in the shelter environment where they can be a little bit of stressful or dogs that suffer some anxiety conditions. And giving a dog a break through massage to let the brain kind of chill out for lack of a better word. Gives some comfort and just lowers stress. And then you know all those health effects that when you lower your stress, reduce your heart rate, reduce your blood pressure, calm your breathing. It provides all that emotional benefit. Well, when I looked into this before, you know, I know you and I talked quite a long time ago to schedule this interview. I didn't know that massage can actually help improve the immune system. How does that work? It Can Improve the Immune System? Yeah, well, massage, there are some specific techniques that you can do specifically a manual lymphatic drainage is a great technique for dogs that need some immune boosting but the lymphatic system in the body is basically the immune system in the body and it's a one way system that sometimes can get a little bit clogged up. And so by manipulating lymph throughout the system and helping the flow improve, you are actually boosting the immune system. It's kind of a lesser known technique. But it's really, really a cool one. It's also a great way to clear excess swelling after an injury or surgery. So definitely encourage people to look into lymphatic massage, not just for their dogs, but for themselves, because I think a lot of people don't know about it, and it's highly effective in the healing process. And what about massage, improving digestion? Yeah, I mean, just by improving, you know, circulation, again, you're stimulating the digestive tract. Certainly, there are techniques you can do to kind of help with the overall flow along the digestive tract, which can be helpful. I've worked with dogs say with irritable bowel disorder, or just kind of some GI stress, and just kind of help overall keep things moving. And, you know, can help, again, with some pain relief in that system by stimulating the digestive tract, and then when you're working the abdomen from other areas. It goes way further than just what you think of massage. It's just topical, moving of the skin and maybe getting into the muscle. Yeah, it really does. I mean, there's virtually no dog that could not benefit. I mean, certainly, there are some situations where massage is not appropriate. For example, if your dog has an active infection that they're fighting or a fever, or that they have, you know, a severe kind of nerve pain syndrome, where you know, you could be causing pain, but I would say for you know, 98% of dogs, there is some way that massage could benefit them. Okay, well, we are going to take a quick sponsor break. And in the second part we are going to talk about, you know, would your dog be a candidate and to find out from you what exactly is involved, and the different techniques. So everybody hang on, we will be right back. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? Hello, everyone. Welcome back. We are speaking with Caragh Reilly and we are talking about canine massage. And I am learning so much. There's just so much more to it. So when we left for the break, Caragh, you were mentioning maybe some dogs that are not good candidates for massage. But pretty much most dogs would really benefit from it. So why don't you tell us about the different techniques? Because I think you mentioned there are different ones, especially you know, the lymphatic drainage that was really cool. What other techniques are there? Massage Techniques So you know, canine massage is really based in Swedish massage techniques just like it is in humans. So of the core kind of soft tissue work that we're doing. We're doing a technique called effleurage, which is long, sweeping strokes. We're doing a lot of compression techniques where we're kind of working into the muscle belly to spread the muscle fibers and bring increase the blood flow in there. We're also doing some work where we're maybe kneading the skin manipulating the skin doing what they call petrifies techniques. So we're we're working with the fascial tissue. Fascia is a connective tissue that covers everything in the body and really connects everything. So you can be working fascia in one area of the body and having an effect in another, another area. Again, another technique where if you haven't had fascial work done on yourself as a human, I definitely recommend you look into that, in addition to looking into it for your dog. Again, we're using all those basic Swedish techniques. But then for, you know, canine massage therapists that are certified in this work, we're also going into some advanced techniques that have deeper effects such as trigger point release, trigger points are very hyper irritable spots in the skin, which you can release, they can kind of cause deferred or active pain. I don't know if any of you are listening in have ever had a massage and they they're working or knot and your neck and you feel it all the way down your arm or up into your head. That's a trigger point that you have. And so you know, releasing those trigger points helps reduce reduce pain all over. We're often doing orthopedic friction work on tendons and ligaments to help with you know, tendons and ligaments healing, if there's injuries to those components of the body. I mentioned manual lymphatic drainage, which is excellent for immune boosting and for healing after injury, and surgery. And, you know, in general, we're just also providing just a very nice positive touch experience, I try not to underestimate the power simply of applying touch to dogs, because we can communicate so powerfully through touch. I think, you know, you think what happens, if you're grieving and say, What does someone instinctually do to provide comfort, it's giving you a hug, placing a hand on your shoulder, it doesn't have to be deep or intensive, but just even a gentle touch can communicate so well and provide comfort. So, you know, physical effects of massage aside, I think that massage is a tremendous way to improve, you know, bonds with dogs, and to help, you know, provide them comfort and a sense of well being. Yeah, absolutely. And I can imagine the sporting dogs would really benefit because they are doing some you know, I know I used to do agility with Winston. And dogs like that. Probably need it. For Sporting Dogs Sporting dogs are kind of like the elite athletes, right? And they are out there working their bodies really hard. So I would say what's great about you know, the sporting world is they were kind of ahead of the times and I think that you know, massage and bodywork is pretty commonplace. You know, if you trial, you'll often see massage therapists on site to help pre and post event to help dogs prime for their events, and then you know, help with their recovery. But yeah, even if you're just doing it for fun, you have to be cognizant of the fact that you're putting a strain on your dog's bodies and they may be prone to injury. So by kind of introducing some of this body work, you're helping to prevent potential injury and keeping them at the top of their game. Absolutely. And I know I've had guests on before talking about acupuncture, and they also mentioned acupressure. So, is acupressure actually considered a form of massage? What About Acupressure? Acupressure, there's a separate certification process. Many canine massage therapists are also trained and certified in applying acupressure. One thing that I think it's a great thing to note is that what pet professionals can practice in terms of massage, acupuncture, acupressure does vary by state. There are veterinary practice laws that are state by state which indicate if you must be a veterinary professional to implement some of these modalities. As a general rule, acupuncture with needles should be performed by a veterinarian. And sometimes in some states massage also needs to be done under a veterinary professional’s guidance or within a veterinary practice. And Acupressure is one of those other things. For example, I'm here in Illinois, and I can provide therapeutic massage outside of the veterinary world but I do not practice acupressure just to align with Illinois veterinary practice laws. I didn't know that interesting. Okay. Well, it's actually comforting to know there is regulation out there for for this. So thanks for pointing that out. Is It a Regulated Industry? There is regulation. It's not always enforced. You know, I think that yeah, it's one thing that I'd love to see since it's even getting into this field, the growth and the awareness of the need for better, more supervised training. Definitely recommend if you're looking for a therapist in your area, doing a little research to kind of understand the credentials that the massage therapists in your area have because it's not a regulated area. If anyone says they are a licensed massage therapist, be a little bit wary because there actually is no canine massage therapy license. The certification process, and if you are looking for kind of a great organization to find a reputable therapist, the National Board of Canine Animal Acupressure and Massage, NBCAAM is a great resource to find a practitioner that's gone through appropriate training, which includes a certain amount of training in anatomy and physiology, ethics, all the massage and that they've had a good deal of supervised hands on training under the purview of an instructor because some programs out there are claiming they're certifying people just with online training. And unfortunately, I think that's doing a bit of a disservice to the industry, because how can you learn a hands on trade without really good hands on training? So just something to be aware of, in your communities. You know, to kind of look into the training programs of any therapist, you engage. Great advice. Well, Caragh, I went to your website, and I love your website. It's, it's very well done. But one thing that stood out to me is something I learned earlier this year, that blew my mind that dogs don't have collarbones. Yeah. It's kind of my little trivia for new clients. That dogs’ front limbs are not skeletally attached to their body, they don't have a collarbone bone like we do. They have kind of a small cartilage piece. But I think that it's fascinating to know that about dog’s bodies, because it puts into perspective, how much strain they may be putting on their front limbs. Dogs actually also carry about 60% of their weight up front. So they're putting a lot of strain on their shoulders, elbows, wrists. And when you think of the fact that their limbs are not skeletally cemented to their body, but instead that's all attached by muscle and connective tissue. I think it's another great reason to think, wow, I think massage and bodywork is something that would help keep those joints moving their best, because we're taking some of that tension out when they're really bearing a quite a load. Yes. Just another reason. Well, I can go on all day about the reasons. Of course you could. Well, how long? Typically I know every dog is different. But how long do the effects of a massage session last? Typical Sessions Yeah, I mean, it depends on what the goal is. Usually, if you think about how we feel after a massage, you're feeling looser, or feeling less tense, you're feeling some reduced pain that typically lasts, you know, a couple of days to a week, it depends on the severity of the condition that you're going through. You know, so I think every dog is an individual, and it depends on when you're intervening, I guess in a dog, you know, pain cycle, and you know how severe some of the issues are that they're dealing with. So you know, it can be a short lived thing, or it can can last quite a bit, I would say that, you know, I have some dogs that I work with weekly. And then I have some dogs that really just are pretty good. And I see them once a month or once every other month because they're young and healthy, and they are generally moving fine. And when they start to get a little stiff, their owners bring me back in. Okay, and how long is an average session? It depends on how much touch the dog will tolerate. I personally offer sessions that are anywhere from 30 minutes to 60 minutes in length. Interestingly, even if a dog absolutely loves their massage time, they tend to max out. And every dog's tolerance of intentional touch varies. But you know, I have a couple of dogs that I always laugh, they're passed out sleeping and snoring and at minute 29 are up and ready to move on to the next activity for the day. And then of course, I have a couple of dogs that probably would lay there all day if I let them. But if more and more and more. But you know, just like with uss, you can overwork tissue, right. So just because we'd love this claim that we'd lay on the massage table all day, it's not necessarily the best thing for your body. So I tend to find that, you know, 30 to 60 minutes are great session lengths. Usually my smaller dogs are shorter sessions, some of my bigger dogs I take a little longer to work through their body, but it's really about reading the dogs cues. And I'm you know, it's a force free, you know, kind of profession. I’m never restraining the dog forcing them to enjoy the massage. I want it to be on their terms, because if they're stressed about it or being forced to stay in place, they're not reaping the benefits. So it's a conversation that I have with each of my dogs during every session and every session might be different. Like we're all different. Makes sense. So you of course do in person sessions with your clients, but you also do virtually and how does that work? Do you kind of teach the pet parents what to do? Great question. Yeah, I started offering this as in home for a variety of reasons. I mean, I could have worked in a facility and some people do that, but I like and I'm passionate about some dogs that are maybe a little bit more nervous, or if they're a senior, it's difficult to get into a facility. So I find that dogs are often comfortable in their own home. So it's great when I can do that in home. But during COVID, I had to be a little flexible. So my virtual sessions actually started at that time, when I wanted to provide a way to still bring some comfort and assistance to dogs when we were not able to or people were uncomfortable, you know, with continuing with an in home session. So in that situation, I do a zoom call. And I'm basically walking them through some basic techniques, and where to apply them on the body. Currently, I do offer that just for my own existing clients versus new clients, because I like to know what I've felt their body before and can provide better guidance over the phone. But a great part of, of this job is providing pet parent education. And I'm always willing to show pet parents how to perform some techniques to do in between our sessions, because, you know, my passion is to help your dog feel well. And it's not that I'm the only one that can provide that. And I want to keep dogs moving and feeling their best. So I do love showing pet parents some simple techniques they can do. And there are some great ones that that everyone can do at home to keep their dogs moving well, all the time. Right. Well, and I'm really impressed, Caragh that you, it seems like you are taking this a step further. Because you're also trained in advanced post surgical, edema management, tendon and ligament healing, and also oncology techniques. So that's quite impressive that you are so well rounded. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's when I first got into this work, it is one of the reasons why I became so passionate about it, it's, it's really fun to get to work with so many different types of dogs and build relationships with those dogs. And the variety of it, for me was great versus to say working in a rehab facility, which is tremendous, and they do wonderful. And most of them offer, you know, massage therapy in that setting. But I wanted to branch out and kind of have access to dogs undergoing different things. And I love that every day looks different. And every session looks different. And so, you know, I'm always trying to learn and additional techniques and just bring new services to these dogs so we can help them live long, healthy lives. That's what we're all about. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Caragh, as we are wrapping up here, where can everybody find out more information about you and your company Wellness and Wags? Yeah, I mean, I think my website is the primary spot. WellnessandWags.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. Certainly if you want to see pictures of, you know, cute dogs that's probably on Instagram, because that's where I go for all my cute dog pics. But yeah, certainly would love for people to check me out. And I'm certainly always available for questions. I often get, you know, people reaching out to me about how do you train in this and things like that. So I'm always happy to answer questions if anyone's interested, direct message me or send me an email as well. Social media URLs Instagram: @wellnessandwags Facebook: @wellnessandwags Great. Well, I'll put all of this in the show notes so people can reach out. And is there anything that you'd like to leave us with today? I don't think so. I just you know, it's been really fun chatting with you and sharing, you know, this industry and this work with your audience, because I think it has so many incredible benefits. And so many people don't think about it for their drugs just like we forget to get massages for ourselves. So it was just great to share, be able to share how much I love this work and how much I've seen this work help dogs. And I hope that some of your audience will start considering it for their dogs and it would be great to, you know, hear how it's benefiting them. Oh, that's great. Well, hopefully everybody in the audience learned something new today. Go ahead and reach out to Caragh because you can tell how passionate she is about her craft. And Caragh, I just want to thank you for being here and for all that you do. Thank you. It's my pleasure. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone. This is Krista with Episode #170 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? Well, these are products that I've tried on my dog Winston and that I know, like and trust. Products that will also help your dog to thrive. Just go to https://www.wagoutloud.com/ and check out the Trusted Brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? Who regulates dog toy safety? The simple answer is nobody. So buyer beware. You can't rely on a toy’s packaging to tell you if it's safe. And many of the most popular toys at pet stores contain dyes, preservatives, and chemical residues that are toxic. And testing has also revealed heavy metals along with hormone disrupting chemicals, carcinogens, and neurological poisons, all bad stuff. So before you buy your best friend a new toy, you'll want to be careful about what's used to make it. And if you pick up a dog toy and it has a chemical smell, or bright colors, you should avoid it along with those that contain fire retardants, or stain guards. Synthetic chews, you know the ones made of nylon or plastic flavoring. They could also contain questionable ingredients that your dog is better off not ingesting. So choose toys made of 100% natural rubber, organic cotton, or other eco friendly and contaminant free materials. Even if the toy is made in the US, be sure to check the manufacturer is using only high quality natural materials. So bottom line is do your homework and help protect your beloved pup from toxic toys. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr. Bonnie Bragdon has a unique background that combines veterinary medicine, practice management and industry innovation. She began her career in practice, serving for nearly 10 years as an associate veterinarian, owner-veterinarian and animal control director with clinical and leadership responsibilities. In addition to her responsibilities as a clinical practitioner, Dr. Bragdon excelled in practice operations management and enjoyed coaching and mentoring her team for maximum performance. She transitioned to executive leadership in the animal health industry, where she continued her career development learning new skills in sales, marketing, and teaching adults. She is the co-founder of the Independent Veterinary Practitioners Association, the first nonprofit association dedicated to uniting and empowering independently-owned and locally-operated veterinary clinics in continuing to shape the business and practice of animal health care. She also frequently serves as a subject matter expert for DailyPaws.com regarding pet health issues. Hello dog lovers! We are so glad that you tuned into yet another informative Wag Out Loud episode. And I am thrilled to be chatting with my guest, Dr. Bonnie Bragdon. And she is going to talk about the dog parent and veterinarian relationship. So Dr. Bonnie, thanks so much for being with us today. I'm really excited to be here, Krista. I love talking to dog parents. It's very exciting. I don't get enough of that these days. And so I'm glad to be here. Awesome. Well, before we get started, would you please introduce yourself and share why do you enjoy working with other veterinarians and helping them to excel in their roles? They have many roles, doctors, caregivers and practice owners. Yeah, so I’m Dr. Bonnie Bragdon. I practiced for about 10 years after veterinary school. So I've owned a practice, I actually also managed an animal control facility, I left that career as a practitioner and entered what we call an animal health industry. And I work with drug companies and animal practices. And I like that intersection where health, science and clinic management all comes together. And I think I have some unique insights that'll help dog owners and give a little bit of inside knowledge about how to navigate those relationships. The Strain that Vets, techs and other in vet practices are under Well, I am so excited. You're the expert. So school us today, Dr. Bonnie. We're going to be talking about the importance of developing a healthy relationship with your vet for the personalized care for your dog. And we're going to talk about the cost of care, the questions that you should be asking to make sure that you're not being taken advantage of. So before we dive deep, I just wanted to do a shout out to all of the veterinarians, the techs and the other team members of these veterinary practices because I don't know if a lot of us realize the pressure, the stress that they are all under especially now these days. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, so During COVID, a lot of us went out and got new dogs, had time with our dogs and understood that maybe things weren't quite right, we got caught up on preventative care. And we went to the veterinarian very often, during a time when there's a shortage of veterinary help veterinarians, trained technicians. And so it's been very stressful to bring that all together allow veterinarians to do the medicine and practice the way they want to, as well as be able to have time for themselves and not be so stressed. And so I am very grateful to any dog owner that just is a little more patient than normal. I now actually go to the veterinarian to get care for my own animals, and I have to be a lot more patient and understand things are taking longer in that so that staff can deliver quality care and aren't rushed. So it takes a lot of patience these days. Yeah. And I think sometimes we forget that the practice is a business. Right? Different Types of Veterinary Practice Structures and Ownership So and that's something that we should talk about, right. So what I am very, very passionate about, because I am an insider, and I am a veterinarian, I don't practice now. So I have to seek care for my own pets, and very passionate about helping dog owners to understand the different types of practices. So dog owners have a large number of choices of where they get care. They can go to a corporate practice, which is a national practice with standards across the United States, kind of like going to McDonald's, you get the same hamburger, so you know what to expect. You can also seek care at a an independent practice. And those can be one doctor practices all the way up to 30 Doctor practices. There are even nonprofit practices these days. So those are our practices that support low income folks, folks who might struggle to pay for care. So everybody has an opportunity to choose the kind of care they would like and how personalized that is, and what kind of relationship they have with their veterinarian. And they just need to understand those differences. To be able to ask the right questions. That's a really good point. Well, how do you want to start this conversation about forming a healthy relationship with our veterinarians? What Kind of Veterinary Care Do You Seek for Your Dog? Yeah, I think the most important thing is to consider the kind of health care you want for yourself, as well as for your dogs. And we all have different philosophies about how we would like to live our lives. Some folks want to live full out, and hey, you know, I'm going to eat doughnuts and smoke cigarettes. And that's great. And my grandma lived to 100. And she drank a glass of whiskey every day. And other folks are like, No, you know, I want to be very restrictive about my health care and make sure I work on it, and take care of myself to the optimum. And one of the things that I think is most important is to also to assess risk. So am I somebody who really wants to minimize risk and take absolutely no risks, and make sure that I get the best outcomes? Or am I maybe, you know, maybe I want to have a little more value added care. And I'm, you know, maybe willing to take a little bit more risk, because I'm having to pinch pennies and things like that. And so, first and foremost, consider what's important to you philosophically, ethically, morally, what style of healthcare you like, and then think about your budget. And once you put that all together, have a conversation with your veterinarian, because what I think so many times people forget is your veterinarian, has their style of care that they want, and they like to deliver. There's actually some experts in the veterinary profession who talk about burnout. And they talk more about burnout, not so much about compassion and empathy and kindness and sympathy. They're actually talking about burnout from a moral and ethical standpoint. So there's a lot of diversity in how we feel like our pets should be cared for. Some of us feel like our dogs should receive every bit of the same care as we receive. And other folks feel like maybe the budget is more important than the the type of care that's delivered. So veterinarians kind of get stuck in the middle. Because they're trying to advocate for their patients. They're trying to meet the budget and the philosophy and the moral needs of the client. And then they're trying to navigate these relationships. And it can be and their own personal feelings about what type of care should be delivered. And that can be very stressful for them. So I'll give you a you know, an example. Let's say that you really prefer to have a heavy emphasis on Eastern philosophies of medicine. Let's say that naturopathy, homeopathy, herbal medications, those are very very important to you as a health care consumer both for yourself, as well as Your Dog, it's important to find a veterinarian that also maybe even specializes or has those types of knowledge and moral and ethical style of medicine. And then you have that automatic match. So you're not at odds of what you're trying to accomplish for your dog. Risk vs Choice That makes total sense. And I know when we first met, we talked in depth about this risk versus choice, and how to mitigate risk. Can you talk about because I know we mentioned vaccinations and flea and tick medications? And what are the choices versus the risks? And what should we look out for when talking about treatments? Yeah, so we started off with like, what are the steps to get the right relationship with a veterinarian to meet your needs and your dog's needs? You know, number one, decide what your philosophy is, and what kind of style of medicine you want for yourself and your pets. Second, I think is that assessment of risk and understanding what type of risk and lifestyle you and your pet live. And then the third step is budget after that. And so when I talk about risk, you know, I could have, let's say, a Jack Russell Terrier, that's a breed that can be a couch potato, or they can be a working dog. So if I'm, if I were practicing today, and I had a Jack Russell Terrier that came to me and it lived on a farm, part of his job was to help keep, you know, the farm free of rats, keep folks safe from all the diseases that rats can carry, versus a Jack Russell Terrier that maybe lives as a companion for somebody who lives in an urban environment, the needs for different preventative care, vaccinations, parasiticide, is different. So the lifestyle of that hunting dog, that dog is going to get exposed to far many more infectious diseases than the dog maybe that sits on the couch, maybe even is trained to go to the bathroom inside. And so first thinking about what lifestyle risks there are. So the hunting dog has a risk of getting infected with ticks and fleas and and leptospirosis and all kinds of diseases carried by rats, whereas the couch potato is not going to have that kind of exposure. And so then once we know what the risk is due to lifestyle, then having a very focused conversation with your veterinarian about what vaccinations and parasiticide are needed. And if you tend to be somebody who prefers the fewer medications more than non traditional medications, there are things you can do to change your lifestyle to make risk of infectious diseases lower. So for instance, there are veterinarians I work with just like dog owners, who are very focused on integrative and maybe non traditional styles of practice. And for them, they prefer to have the least number of vaccines, they prefer to have the least number of parasiticides and medications on a regular basis, and so forth. What I've instructed those folks is that, you know, those pets who are going to receive fewer vaccines and fewer parasiticides should lead a less social life, and more restricted in what they access. So let's say, you know, I'm worried about that dog's immune system, I'm worried about vaccinating that dog, and I don't vaccinate it, or I vaccinate it less frequently, then I might restrict that dog from social activities because I don't want it to get infected. Or I might restrict it to a very small playgroup, like having all of the same dogs in that same playgroup, which aren't exposed to other dogs with the potential infectious diseases. So, for instance, let's say that I'm a foster mom, and I really like fostering dogs. And it's important to me that I give back by fostering that's a scenario where I'm going to have a lot more exposure to infectious diseases where vaccination is important that my own personal pet be vaccinated, as I rescue and bring in these dogs, but I where I don't know what the exposure’s been. So I may have to choose if I don't want to vaccinate as much, I may have to give up fostering in order to keep my own personal pet healthy. Titer Testing Or like everybody that follows this Show, we know about titer testing, and if we know that our dogs have the antibodies for you know the various diseases, then we should feel comfortable instead of over vaccinating or re boosting. Right. Now, there are some differences. So I did you know, I gave you a case case study that was extreme and what I was kind of thinking back and harkening back to is we did have, we've had some sporadic, not common, but we've had some sporadic outbreaks of canine influenza. And there are a number of different strains just like there are with people and birds and so some are more pathologic and, and problematic than others. And so absolutely titer testing is very, it's pretty reliable when it comes to core diseases like distemper, rabies and Parvo. I didn't do titer testing when I was in practice, but I do believe it's very good for helping understand if that dog has been well vaccinated. There are other diseases that we just you know, we don't have the ability, we don't have the knowledge or the information to predict whether that titer is going to be protected, or even if we can commercially test titers. And so the respiratory diseases are a little bit more difficult than some of the other core diseases. And so with canine influenza. And I keep thinking about that one, because we did have a new strain. There were some folks that that had some pretty difficult times with their personal pets, because they were very generous with fostering. So in that scenario, with fostering one of the very easy husbandry ways to manage through that is through isolation and quarantine. And so rather than if you if you don't want to vaccinate, and you know that you are very worried about that keeping your own personal pets isolated from those that you're bringing in, and that way you can manage exposure, and then just you know, managing as you go between the populations. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing that. Well, we are at a point in the show where we need to take a quick commercial break. So we'll see you on the flip side, everybody. Stay tuned. Now is the perfect time to thank Liz Murdoch from Talking with the Dogs for being our monthly sponsor. Liz has developed a limited edition product and it's perfect for all of the dog lovers out there. Now what's better than talking to or about your dog? Dog Talk Conversation Starters offer 72 questions and writing prompts to get you connected and thinking about your dog in brand new ways. Whether sharing laughs about funny things our dogs do, or savoring favorite memories spent with a four legged friend, these Dog Talk cards are guaranteed to get you in touch with a dog in your life, or maybe even your heart. They worked for myself and my dog Winston and these are so fun with a group of dog loving friends to help prompt great conversations about our pups. Fun for all ages, these dog talk cards are a must for every dog parent. Order your deck by going to DogTalkCards.com and use the code WOL10 for 10% off. Order two or more boxes and get free shipping. Remember, these are limited edition, so be sure to order yours today! Welcome back, everybody. We are talking with Dr. Bonnie Bragdon. And how to have the best relationship with your vet. So very important, because Dr. Bonnie aren't we a team? It's not so many people hold veterinarians way up on this pedestal and almost feel that they can't say anything or ask questions, which they really should be. They shouldn’t be intimidated, right? Conversations with Your Vet No, they shouldn't be intimidated. And I would hope every one of my veterinary colleagues would agree with me when I say, if a veterinarian’s making you feel intimidated, and that's not a good relationship, and you need to search for a veterinarian that you're comfortable with. And that's the same for our physicians as well. And what is so fabulously wonderful about veterinary medicine is you can, I'm pretty sure I find the veterinarian who matches your philosophy, matches your medical style, your morals, your ethics and feelings and thoughts about your dog and the care that that dog should receive. It just takes a little work to find that veterinarian, and I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent but there I know a veterinarian in Texas, her whole practice is limited to helping rodeo bulls live their best life, in competitive sport. So no matter how you feel about, you know, animals and competition and how we have those types of relationships, there's a veterinarian and her whole career is dedicated to making sure that those bulls are competing in rodeos are healthy and competitive. And then will live a long and healthy life. And I never would have known that. So finding that right veterinarian for your dog is absolutely possible. It's just a matter of doing some research. First, you know, starting off with the practice website, and then having a conversation with the staff as well as the veterinarian and asking all of those questions. And I think some important questions to ask just like you, you know, you kind of prodded me is, you know, what is your philosophy regarding preventative care? You know, what is your philosophy regarding vaccination? And I would like to stop and say, a veterinarian philosophy about vaccination. parasiticide is very much formed by their experiences in practice, fairly self evident. So there's a lot of diversity and you'll hear me talk a lot about vaccination, for the very important reason that I worked in an animal control environment. And when I was in animal control I saw I saw far, many more animals die from preventable diseases because they weren't vaccinated. However, if you look at the World Health Organization's paper on vaccination and preventative care, they state in the developed world, that there are probably as many pets that are over vaccinated as many over vaccinated pets as there are under vaccinated pets. And so that's where we need a balance, right? And so some very interesting data that I don't have top of head anymore, but there are veterinary deserts, in certain environments in the United States, just like there are food deserts and healthcare deserts for people in that people are unable to get basic care and the basic vaccines. So these puppies have not been vaccinated for Parvo. And so those areas Parvo and distemper have very high prevalence, diseases, which probably certain veterinarians have never even seen in their career. So given my experience in a rural environment in the South in animal control, where vaccination was not highly valued by the community, I saw outbreaks of distemper and Parvo however, I went to practice at a very upscale area where vaccination was very prevalent, and I never saw another distemper case and I saw very few Parvo cases. So again, going back to that idea of understanding, lifestyle and risk, and then that dictates what preventative care, you should seek from your your healthcare provider. Cost of Treatment? All right, good tip. And when we talk about cost when we're looking at cost, you know, everything now is so expensive. And what are the questions that we need to ask to make sure that we're not overpaying for the services that we're paying for? Right. And, again, it's still gonna go back to that idea of risk. And risk is something I am very passionate about talking about, because I think so many times we read in the media, and we get very overwhelmed, right? So for me, myself, personally, I'm like, Oh, my God, I could be I could get monkey pox, I could get Ebola, I could get COVID. Now we've got flu. And we get all of this information. And we don't really have any help to understand what the relative risk is, what's the risk that I'm going to get the disease or that my dog is going to get a disease, what is the risk that the dog is going to get sick and die from the disease and what is the risk for preventing or treating that? So I'll give you an example. I have a colleague that I've worked with in the past. And she lives in Chicago, and I'm here in the South. And she sent me this picture of this dog. And she's like, convinced like, Oh, my God, I'm, I'm like, I found this, this insect on my dog, I am convinced it is this rare disease, he is going to die, I am freaking out, what should I do? And I said, well, the likelihood that that insect carries the disease, that it's going to kill your dog as low. The likelihood that that bug, if it has the infectious disease is going to infect your dog is low, you got got the insect off the dog almost immediately. And frankly, to be very blunt, there's no treatment. And if the dog is already sick, there's unfortunately nothing you can do about it. So giving that stepwise process and thought about risk, there's no need to panic over a weekend. There's no need to seek expensive consultation at an emergency practice. And it's okay to monitor that dog and how they are progressing and feeling. So having that stepwise conversation with a clinician, what is the risk that my dog is going to get this disease? What is what is the likelihood that the pet with the likelihood of outcome is going to be? How much will it cost to treat? And how much will it cost if I kind of watch or take other measures to monitor this disease process. And so if we think about, for instance, parvo virus, that's a very expensive disease to treat, that one, when we see a pet come in or dog come in, and we've diagnosed parvo virus, we know we want to hospitalize, we want to maximize the care that that dog is getting, we want to put in place an IV catheter and do everything we can because mortality can be as high as 20 to 30% in those puppies. However, if I have a dog come in, and maybe has an upper respiratory disease, it's got a honking cough, you know, without playing in the playground with the dog at the dog park, it's probably it might be viral might be respiratory, that's one where I might be able to watch and not give antibiotics, and watch for signs that the dog is getting progressively worse. So it's this idea of being able to understand the risk of death, and then kind of kind of trading care based on budget and based on the likelihood of a good outcome versus, you know, a poor outcome. Is the Veterinary Industry Broken? Sure. Well, I think we can all agree that in human medicine that the medical industry is broken. I'll just say that. So do you feel that there are improvements that can be made in veterinary medicine and the industry? Yes. So it is absolutely fascinating. I just came back from a conference, run by the ASPCA. And that conference, I just my hat's off to that group and the leadership they've shown, they're bringing to the veterinary profession, a conversation around access to care. And the conversation is around the spectrum of care. So veterinarians, especially veterinarians, in my age, we were taught to offer gold, you know, silver and bronze care. So kind of better, best, you know, minimum care. And that's not pleasant, right? That's not a fair conversation to have with somebody. Well, you know, if you can't afford it, we're just gonna kind of get you the basics and send you out the door. And that's, that's not a fair conversation to have with anybody. However, if we talk about the spectrum of care, right, we can have a conversation around, how much care do we deliver to minimize risk? And if we think about a surgical case, for instance, if I've got a puppy that comes in a six month old puppy that's being spayed or neutered, you know, Can I can I get you know, not do bloodwork on that pet, you know, you know, what is the risk if I put that pet under anesthesia, and I need to do you know, a castration or a spay, and I don't do pre, you know, pre surgical bloodwork does that, you know, what's the what's the likely outcome? Well, in a young animal, the likely outcome if I don't spend the money on pre surgical bloodwork, that that pet is probably going to get through surgery, okay. However, I don't know there could be a risk, I could miss a liver shunt. I could miss a congenital kidney problem. And so that's where we're starting to have more conversations around the spectrum of care. So we can deliver good quality value care to people that meet their budget. Now I had clients, it had nothing to do with their budget. They would go without for themselves in order to make sure that that pet, get every type of care absolutely possible in order to make Make sure they minimize risk at all cost. And then there were others who said, No, I really, I have to meet my budget. And so let's have a conversation around how we're going to do a good quality job. But maybe I'm willing to take a little bit more risk. Malpractice in Veterinary Medicine Well, since we're talking about risk, it makes me unfortunately, go right to malpractice. Because we are so emotionally bonded with our dogs. And if something happens, whether it was human error, or you know, they went the less expensive route, and something was missed, you know, whatever that is, there has to be a lot spent on malpractice insurance in a veterinary practice. Because isn't it prevalent? Yeah, malpractice is very different, for better or for worse. And this, this is controversial. So most states, here in America, consider animals to be property. No matter how much we love or care about our animals, at the end of the day, from a legal standpoint, they are considered property. Now, we still have, we have far more responsibilities for caring for our animals than we do regular property. So it's kind of this weird dynamic, where legally, that animal is considered property. But we have all these humane and welfare very expanding and very good laws about how we have to take care of these animals. And because animals are considered property, it does mitigate and lessen what happens when there is malpractice. And so that, you know, there's pros and cons to that, right? The good side of lowered malpractice is that that cost is not passed on to consumers. Now, the difficult part is if you feel like, you know, there has been malpractice, you may not be able to recover financially. But the way that I think about this is oftentimes I think we feel like getting, you know, a financial outcome from malpractice is a way to feel like we've been, you know, paid back not just on the damages, the financial damages, but also the emotional damages. And I think if we're able to kind of have a better conversation than physicians have, then I think we can keep the cost of care low, but still be able to acknowledge and provide people with closure, that that animal was every bit as important to them as any person, and that that problem or malpractice or negligence was every bit as emotional and problematic and dear to them as if it were a human. One of the things we don't always talk about is part of the stress that veterinarians feel I know myself personally, I have felt this is when there is an error or some other malpractices happen. I know I personally have felt it very deeply. I think that's why I don't practice today is because it's emotionally difficult for us as well. We well I, most veterinarians that I know, never want anything to go wrong. And when something does go wrong, they feel horribly about it. Really, I think it would be great to have a conversation among healthcare providers in veterinary medicine as well as legal and ethical folks and experts as well as owners or pet parents, so that we can have a better more balanced conversation around. Yes, financial damages need to be paid in order for that person to be paid back for the cost of care if it was negligent or malpractice to also have some form of acknowledging the grief. And you know, the difficulties and the emotional burden that comes with those. Those problems that crop up? So I don't have an exact answer. But the privileges that we have in veterinary medicine and animal health, is that if we just develop closer relationships with pet parents, we have such huge opportunities to really shape the future of Veterinary Medicine, unlike human medicine, because it's human medicine. There's so many government laws and policies and there's so many things that have to force or form the scenario where we have a huge opportunity in veterinary medicine to really make it something that works for everybody. Well said, Well, Dr. Bonnie, we are out of time. But I want to quickly let everybody know you co founded the Independent Veterinary Practitioners Association. Can you quickly tell us what that is about? Yeah, so I believe that everybody should have choice in the type of care they receive. Whether that's the most expensive or the most value added. And in veterinary medicine today, it is becoming consolidated and corporatized. So larger and larger companies are owning more and more veterinary practices. And I want consumers to know that they still have an option of seeking care with a practice that is owned by the veterinarian who works there. And oftentimes, those veterinarians and those healthcare providers can be more flexible in order to provide personalized care. Dr. Bonnie Bragdon Contact Info I love it. Thank you for that. That's an amazing organization. Well, as we are leaving today, how can people find out more about you and the association? Website for the IVPA is https://www.iveterinarians.org/   Social Media URLs or Tags          Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/iveterinarians/          LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/independentveterinarian/ Yes, so they can visit visit us at https://www.iveterinarians.org/. And you can actually go on there and find one of our members. So you know for sure that it is a veterinary owned practice. That is another thing that I would advise people to ask questions. Oftentimes, these practices are not branded. And so as you're seeking care, ask the question, you know, who is it that dictates policy and procedure, medical SOPs, medical protocols? Is that the veterinarian here on site? Or is that a company and a group of veterinarians and a group of administrators off site. And if it's a group of administrators off site, that doesn't mean the care, it still is good quality care. It's just it might be more restrictive. And those veterinarians in the clinic may not be able to make those personalized touches, right. So those veterinarians who work for practices that have rigid policies are going to give you the company’s philosophy on vaccination, parasiticide, whereas an independent practitioner can have a more personalized conversation to really give you the kind of preventative care that meets you and your pet's needs. Great info. Dr. Bonnie, thank you so much for all that you do. And for being here. This is all good information. I really appreciate it. I just wish I could talk to all your people. So if you get any questions, I love answering questions. So I'm absolutely very serious if there's a way to get those questions to me. I mean, I cannot advise on specific cases. But I can guide people as to what questions to ask their veterinarian so they can get the right, right care that they need. And I love answering this questions. All right, everybody. You heard it. So give me your questions. I'll forward it on to Dr. Bonnie. Thank you so much. And we'll be back next time. Thank you for your time today. Thanks again to our sponsor Genie’s Therapeutics for sponsoring this episode. Fetch some Genie’s Therapeutics Hemp Signature Blend for your dog at GeniesTherapeutics.com. And be sure to use the code WOLspecial to receive free shipping and 10% off. Thanks again to Talking With the Dogs and their new Dog Talk Conversation Starter Cards for sponsoring this episode. Get your limited edition Dog Talk Cards by visiting DogTalkCards.com and use the code WOL10 for 10% off, plus free shipping if you order two or more boxes. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. 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