How to Balance Natural vs. Conventional Options for Your Dog

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Wag Out Loud

Krista Karpowich

100 episodes

9 months ago

Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today. Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it. This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council? THE START OF THE NASC Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC. Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do? WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL? It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow. Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold. Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation. And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again? CHANGE IN FORMULATION Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace. And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies? STUDIES AND TRIALS Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it. That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US? ONLY US COMPANIES? Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US. got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back. SPONSOR AD Thanks to Dog Love essential oils for sponsoring this episode. They say it comes in many forms. And in this case, love comes in a bottle. Our canine companions are more than just pets. They're cherished family members. So whether you have a sprightly pup, a wise old sage or a beloved friend of any age, Dog Love Oils help to enhance your pups wellbeing, and happiness. Are you tired of using chemical laden products on your precious pup? Well, Dog Love Oils has you covered. Whether it's soothing your dogs hotspots, protecting them from pesky fleas and ticks, aiding digestion, relieving sore joints, or simply promoting overall wellness, Dog Love Oils has crafted top quality natural solutions for you. What makes these elixirs stand out? Well, it's all about quality and Dog Love Oils uses only the finest pure therapeutic grade essential oils, ensuring safety and effectiveness for both dogs and their human companions. And rest assured that all Dog Love Oils are blended with natural ingredients and expertly diluted and tested to be dog safe. Show your love by going to https://www.dogloveoils.com/ today and explore their wide range of products designed to boost your best friend's well being. And here's a special treat during the entire month of December, enjoy a generous 15% off every order of $25 or more by using the code WAGOUTLOUD . Dog Love Oils… love in a bottle. And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit? TRUST, BUT VERIFY Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background? You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency. I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there? MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day. Good for you. So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do. Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC? So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member. And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you? HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake. Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business. Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing. We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right? Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that? WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION? Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional. Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally. Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement? HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that? Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today? Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening. Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes. OFFER: And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division. So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. It's an honor. Thanks again to Dog Love Oils for sponsoring this episode and for their unwavering dedication to our beloved canine companions. Save 15% off any of their exceptional products during the month of December 2023. By using code WAGOUTLOUD on your purchase of $25 or more. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

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How to Balance Natural vs. Conventional Options for Your Dog

Wag Out Loud

32 minutes 33 seconds

2 years ago

How to Balance Natural vs. Conventional Options for Your Dog

Hello everyone this is Krista with Episode #176 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. As much as we sometimes want to hug a dog, animal psychologists say that dogs can be stressed and unhappy when they're hugged. And it's because they see having a limb thrown over them as a sign of dominance. They'll show that stress by licking their lips, looking away, or folding their ears. So maybe go for a belly rub or a butt scratch over a hug whenever you want to show your dog some love. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Karen Pedersen is a content writer and passionate dog owner from Minneapolis, Minnesota, where she lives with her husband Scott, dogs Tico and Taco, and Cocoa the cat. She has been involved in dog rescue since 2005 and has a soft spot for fostering dogs who need surgery or have other medical issues. She is currently learning more than she ever wanted to about dog reactivity in order to help one of her rescue dogs, Tico, and has made slow but sure progress and is so proud of him! In her spare time, she travels to visit her four grown children and drags her husband out to the Rocky Mountains to hike and try out the local breweries. Hello, dog lovers! I am so glad that you're here to learn about how to balance natural versus conventional options for your dog. And to cover this topic today, I have Karen Pedersen. Karen, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you very much for having me. I'm just excited to be a part of it. Let's start this conversation. Well, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us why you wanted to cover this topic of natural versus conventional options? Sure. Well, as you said, my name is Karen and I am a dog lover since I can remember. I’ve got two dogs right now, I have fostered many, many, many dogs over the years. And it just took me on this journey of learning about different options for treating medical issues or behavioral issues. And I eventually started a blog about it because it was hard to find information. And, you know, I wanted more community where we can share different things that work that aren't just the straight out of the textbook answer for something you might be dealing with with your dog. Right? Well, when you say so much information, I think that is the problem with the internet these days is that you have so many differing opinions. How is the dog parent supposed to know what is best for my dog? Because it is just overwhelming. It really is. It's overwhelming. And depending on where you are in your dog owning journey, you know, are you at the beginning where you think everything you read must be true and you need to do it? Or have you reached that stage in life where you're like, oh, there's different ways I can do this. They're all okay. And I need to find a way that works for me and works for my dog. Exactly. Well, and that's exactly what we talk about here is we have to be our dogs’ advocates when it comes to their health and wellness. Absolutely. Well, why don't we start? How would you define natural pet ownership? You know, I think natural pet ownership, it can mean so many things. It might be your approach to medical issues. You might be someone who tries a food change or supplement or acupuncture, instead of just going straight for a prescription medication for a medical issue. It could be your approach to training and behavior. Maybe you use things like decompression walks, or mentally stimulating toys or calling supplements. If your dog is reactive, and you're trying to work with that behavior, it could be your food choices. Some people want to feed their dogs home cooked meals or raw diets. Others want to buy kibble at the store. So it's just this combination of so many things, and it's really different and unique for every dog owner. Right? I think a lot of people when I speak with them, you know, how did you get turned on to holistic or integrative approaches to Canine care. A lot of times their dogs have an issue that conventional medicine couldn't fix or treat. And the pet parent just gets so frustrated and says okay, I'm at the end of my rope. I want to try natural. Let's go! Do you agree with that? I think you're right. I think many times you start your journey because your your animal has an issue. For me, you know I'm I was in my 20s I had my first dog and when she turned nine suddenly she started having cluster seizures. So I'm kind of an information maniac so I started reading everything I could find about what can cause seizures. And I stumbled on this article by Dr. Jean Dodds, out in California about the connection between thyroid levels and seizures in dogs. And so I talked to my vet who was conventional. And he said, Well, we can just run a thyroid test here. And I had my first experience in advocating for my pet. And I said, What I'd really like to do is have you do the blood draw, and I'd like to send it to Dr. Dodds’ BloodBank Hemopet out in California. And it was eye opening, because she turned out to be on the low end of normal. So at my vet, they would have said, Nope, she's normal. That's not the issue. But at Hemopet, they do a more intensive thyroid panel, and they take in to account the breed and age. And so Dr. Dodds said, No, this low end of normal for her age, and her breed could actually be the cause. So she started her on seizure medications, which my vet was totally on board with switch, we switched to a raw diet, and her seizures decreased dramatically, we got two more quality years of life with her. So for me, it was very eye opening, because then I realized, you know, every vet’s gonna have a different opinion. And you kind of have to find your own path for your pet and your person. And you have to educate yourself, and then choose the approach that works for you. Don't just believe everything you read or everything you hear. Yep, I totally agree. Well, it's funny. Well, it's not funny, this is not a good situation when your dog has seizures. But I can totally relate because I was one of the pet parents that just didn't know any different. I was feeding kibble, my dog out of the blue started having seizures, three different vets could not figure out the cause. And at the same time, we were getting a second dog and she was already an adult. And the breeder said, we are not going to sell her to you unless you promise to feed raw, like, Oh, she's gonna eat raw. And Higgins might as well eat raw as well. And wouldn’t you know it, within I know, it was like, three, five days, no more seizures ever. It was one change to a raw, natural species appropriate diet that did the trick. And that was the start of my journey. So you and I have a lot in common. Karen, do you believe that conventional veterinary medicine does have its place? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've been very lucky, I live in a city where I have access to holistic vets. But I have my conventional vet that I've seen for a long time. And he is very open. So you know it always every vet is specific, you can have a holistic vet that you don't click with. But he will help me weigh options sometimes. And I might go see a holistic specialist. And then my vet and I will discuss, you know, should we do this? Or should we do that? I remember one instance where I had a foster dog with a horrible staph infection on his skin and the conventional vet diagnosed it and he said, You know, I want to put him on maybe 18 days of steroids. And I was like, oh, you know, they're so bad for the dog. He's going to be drinking and peeing everywhere. You know, do we have any other options here? And he said, You know, when you have a staph infection this severe, I just don't see a way you're going to get rid of it. Without steroids. He said, Now, maybe we could just do 12 days or, you know, a lower number of days. And if we see a turnaround, we could try stopping there. And I'm like, Okay, that seems reasonable. Because this was a dog who was a senior, he had years of horrible care. So I knew that this was a deeply embedded problem, that we might need conventional, to get us to a point where we could start to use more natural and holistic methods to heal his immune system and start to, you know, start to really work at the root issues. So I do think you have to find a balance. And none of us want our dogs to be miserable. And none of us have unlimited financial resources. There's just so many things that play into it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Well, my story recently, our dog Winston got sick. Back in November right around Thanksgiving, didn't know what it was. He was already almost 14. They said it could be auto immune, it could be cancer. And we just didn't want to do the invasive diagnostic testing. And I am so much about holistic, let's do holistic, but I was faced with he is really sick, his red blood cell count his platelets just crashed. We had to have the help of an internal medicine conventional doctor, keep him alive for a couple more months. And to this day he passed late January, and we still don't know what it was. But we got two more months with him because of prednisone, which is an unbelievable drug in the right instance. So I'm with you there. And you know, what if my dog breaks their leg or needs surgery, yes, conventional medicine all day long. But if there is a way to seek a natural approach, I and many more of us are figuring out wow, there are ways to treat ticks and fleas without harsh chemicals. Or do I really have to give that heartworm medication for the what if my dog even gets heartworm and the vaccines? And it's it's a balance, and I'm totally on board with you. And, you know, I think at this point, in the conversation, we're talking about how we, as advocates for our dogs sometimes have to struggle between choosing between the natural versus the conventional, and to your point, both medical and behavioral issues. So what are some of the things that we might encounter when we're trying to decide? You know, there are a number of things. And can I just first say, I'm so sorry for your loss. I love his little voice on your podcast, how wonderful that you got two more months for him not to suffer and just be loved. Yes. Oh, that's wonderful. And to your question, you know, there's, there's a number of different struggles, you might encounter one, you may have a vet who disagrees with you. And sometimes in the case of my vet, we can have a really respectful conversation. And we're both okay, that we have different opinions. In other cases, you might need to change vets. So I've had that happen. I got scolded once by a vet, because I chose not to give my dog another rabies vaccination, and was asking about titers. And for me, it was the first time I'd seen that, vet and I was like, Yeah, we're not a good fit. Other struggles, it can be the expense. holistic treatment and medicine can be more expensive. And that isn't to say, it's not worth that money, and that those vets don't, you know, justify that cost. But we all have to make financial choices, and there's not a right or a wrong choice. There can be, you know, sometimes a natural approach can take longer, because you have to look for the root issue, you know, you're not just putting a bandaid on the symptoms, and natural methods have a slower response. And so sometimes the success or the failure of trying natural is going to hinge on, how long has that problem existed. If I have my one year old dog, and I see he's starting to itch a little more, right away, I'm like, Okay, I need to give him supplements to support his immune system. Maybe he has some spring sensitivities or food sensitivity, I can start working on that stuff. And I'll probably have pretty good luck because it hasn't had time to really grow and get worse and worse. Versus the dog I mentioned this Foster, who was 10 had had horrible allergies his whole life, you know, his ears had lumps from shaking and itching. This is something where his immune system has been struggling for a long time. And that meant that a natural approach was going to take much longer. So so many of these things, you know, they can be a struggle when you have to weigh and balance. Yep, I absolutely agree. Well, Karen, we are at a point where we are going to take a quick break and listen to our sponsor of the month and then we will be right back. So hold tight everybody. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic? Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons. But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy! I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls. They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free! Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy! Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we are back with Karen Pedersen. And we were talking about how to choose and making that decision between conventional options for your dog versus natural. And Karen, I love what you said about the struggles that many of us go through. And I almost define it at times desperation to get an answer. Because it's an emotional decision. These dogs are our family and we can't see them suffer. We want to help them. What is it that we're going to do to help them and I know I have been somebody that it was in that desperate situation? And just, you know, let's try this supplement? No, let's try this one. And I mean, I've had supplement graveyards of just stuff. Yeah, it is a hard choice to make. So why do you love more natural approaches when it comes to your dog? You know, there are so many reasons. One is just the empowerment. Because for me, personally, natural health involves being an educated owner, really, you know, thinking through and educating myself when I'm making decisions versus listening and doing what I'm told. Another thing I love is when you're when you take a natural approach, a lot of times it's kind of forcing you to think outside the box. Because you're you're not just looking at this behavioral issue or that medical issue. You're looking at, what is the bigger picture? That is all you know the root that is causing that issue? Like one example I have a dog named Tico. He has been my growth dog he is we think part Border Collie part German Shepherd. He is the snuggliest, sweetest dog I've ever had. But he is fear reactive. And in the course of he's now eight and in the course of his life, I have not just learned about natural health which might mean I do titers for distemper for him and for rabies so that I’m not over vaccinating. Rabies is a little tougher when you have a reactive dog. So then I have to weigh. If someone you know if someone ran up and scared him and he nipped them, okay, I'm legally responsible here. So all these things are factoring in but also what I found with Tico was that food affected his behavior. So as a natural pet owner, I would have days he was great. And days, he was so amped up, he would start hurting the cat and hurting dogs. And those were kind of my signals that if I go on a walk, he's gonna go nuts if he sees another dog. And so I started a log, and I would keep track of what days he was great and what days he had a real hard time staying calm. And I was logging food changes. And I was working with a Chinese medicine practitioner and she said, let's add oatmeal because that's a cooling food. So I thought that's easy enough. I added oatmeal to his raw diet. And within I want to say two days, I started to notice he was really amped up. And by three days or four days, he started to go at one of my other dogs. And it got to a point where that dog would walk in a room and Tiko would run out him and muzzle punch him. And I remember sitting on the floor and crying to my husband saying, I can’t do this, you know, thinking what am I going to do? And as I filled out my log that night, I thought the only thing in our lives that has changed is the oatmeal, but that would make no sense. But I thought well, you know what the heck. So I stopped the oatmeal and within two days I think he stopped going at my other dog and within In about five to seven days, all of his amped up behavior had disappeared. Amazing. And had I not had this natural approach of like, let's look at everything, let's really think about things, I would never, never have discovered that. Well, with that same dog, another aha moment. I don't know if you've ever had a reactive dog. But as a reactive dog parent, you you are always looking for that magical solution, because the internet is full of my dog was doing all these horrible things, and then they changed this one little thing and all the problems went away. And as much as you know, you know, it's not that easy. You hope. And with Tico, part of that journey for me was trying different forms of training. And there's a lot of positive forms of training, they're all really good, they're all different. And with really minimal luck, you know, I made small strides. But, you know, if he goes nuts with a dog that's 50 yards away versus 100 yards away. It hasn't changed my life too much as an owner. And then I stumbled on a trainer. And his approach was that some dogs are fearful reactive, because there are little things you do as a dog owner, that show your dog that you're the guardian. And I'm not talking like Cesar pack leadership, alpha roling any of that. But I'm talking about kind of, if you think human being the consistent parent and little things that dogs look at, such as Do I say hi, right, when I come in the door? Or do I wait five minutes, and then call them over to me to have our wonderful greeting. And that discovery, I have made more progress in the last year than I did in the first seven. Wow. So again, to me, this is in this bubble of natural pet ownership. Looking at all the things that might be adding up to cause this problem behavioral or medical. Well, I think you just hit the nail on the head, holistic approach is whole body. That's everything. So I love that approach. As you said in the beginning, you know, a lot of conventional medicine unfortunately, puts a bandaid on things that our dogs are facing. Whereas holistic, might take a little longer to work and to figure it out. But that's what it's all about what is the root cause? And you've been saying that this entire interview, so I really, really appreciate that. Yeah, it is so true. You mentioned some vets, of course, um, you know, we can't see eye to eye with the treatment that we're gonna give our dog. So sometimes not only veterinarians, but others in our life, and our dog's life, are judging us on the choices that we make. So what are your thoughts about dealing with judgment from others? you know, judgment is so real. And this journey for me has been not only about realizing how to deal with judgment of me and my dog, but also looking at myself and realizing that I need to look at other people and their dogs without judgment. You know, there's no two people that are going to have the same combination of a conventional or natural approach to medical or behavioral issues. And there's no best way. So I think, you know, as a person, as human beings, if we just stop judging others worry less about other people and how they do it, and not seeing someone doing it differently than me as a put down as my way of doing it instead of celebrating that we are all finding the right balance for us, and our pets. And it's a special journey between you and your dog. Because you're growing together and finding this beautiful combination that works for you. And it's easy to say and you know, I do I should point out that when you have a dog, especially a reactive dog, it's a whole journey of judgment, because I can remember earlier years when I would cry on a walk, like he would have a huge outburst and I would be holding him with all my strength. And the owner would be looking at me with really big eyes, you know, half wondering if they're about to be eaten and the other half thinking get control lady. Sure. And that was really hard for me. And I've made so much progress that now when my dog has a fail, for the most part on good days, I can be like, Hey, buddy, it's okay. You know, I’ve got this and you're okay and having this more. Like, I see you're upset. I'm here, and I'm going to get in front of You and I'm going to stop your behavior. But I'm going to calm you I'm not going to go, Oh, my goodness, this is so embarrassing. It's a real, it's a different mental place for me. Or punishment. You’re not going to punish them for how they're feeling and reacting. Exactly. And you know, I have a story that illustrates how perceived judgment can affect you, you know, I've made this progress with Tico. And we can now go, there's a certain lake where we can walk on the trail with a lot of other people and dogs and bikes. But it has this beautiful grassy expanse next to the trail. So I can always veer as wide as I need to, to keep him in a calm state. And we were walking there. And in this training that I've done in the last year, he has responded, and he was walking by my side with a loose leash. And as we approached, a couple was approaching us and the man stopped talking to his wife, and he watched. And as I came close, he smiled at me, and he pointed at Tico, my sweet little psychotic nightmare of a dog. And he said, Now, that is a well trained dog. And I tell you, I still tell the story. And I choke up because I thought, for so many years, every comment, every reaction I got about this dog, obviously affected me more than I have wanted to let on because I'm like, refocus, you know, this is just about Tico, and we can do this. But to hear that, and to have that emotional reaction. You know, dealing with judgment is hard as a pet owner. So I think it's a constant journey to gain the confidence in what you're doing, to be able to separate yourself from that judgment and find your confidence in your relationship with your dog. Oh, you said it's so well, perfect. Well, as we are wrapping up, Karen, what are your final thoughts on this topic? What advice would you give to others that are listening that are having these same struggles? You know, I think I would just want to remind them that, you know, we all have to constantly work, and I have to constantly work to remind myself that my balance of natural versus conventional ownership for my dogs is okay. And it's about finding what works for us, not about the right way or the wrong way. And when I have that mindset, I really, truly believe that my dogs are happier. I'm happier, I'm more comfortable with my choices. That makes me happier and less stressed pet owner, and it's just this is a positive spiral. Because my dog will sense that I'm happy. And they're happier. And we just keep feeling better and better about our choices. But it's okay, that it's a struggle. I think we all need to give ourselves a little grace, and know that it's about the journey and about the growth. Well said, well, Karen, you, as you mentioned, you are a blogger, and have chosen this path of being a natural pet blogger, what do you want to offer to our listeners as far as finding you? And how can they make suggestions on topics like these that they would love to see you cover in your blog? You know, I would just say the blog is HappyNaturalDog.com all one word. So come on over to HappyNaturalDog.com And if you don't see something that you're looking for, maybe something you've discovered, message me, there's a Contact Me button, you can email me at happynaturaldog@gmail.com. And those are my favorite topics to write about. Because there's just a gratification in being able to help another owner who's on a journey like I have been. And it's also empowering for me because I love to learn about things. And I always end up learning new things about natural healthcare. When I'm answering a question and helping someone look for options. Yeah, I am the same way. It's all about education and sharing this information. Because we all when it comes down to it. We're all like minded, we're all in community, and need to help push each other forward. So I love what you're doing. I just, I thank you for sharing this with us today. The stories I think are what people react to and can put your put themselves in your shoes. And I know that we've helped a lot of people today. So I just am so grateful for everything that you do. Thank you, Karen. Well, thank you and thank you for doing this podcast because this is the way that people find others or find ideas and it's just invaluable to have something like this that people can find and learn on. Well. It's just Another platform and we have to all keep moving the needle forward and helping each other out. So thank you. And we will be back next time with another informative Wag Out Loud episode. And everything that we talked about today. All the links, how to get a hold of Karen is all going to be in the show notes. So thank you everybody for being the best advocate for your dogs. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston. Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

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