“Adopt Don’t Shop” vs. Responsible Dog Breeding

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Wag Out Loud

Krista Karpowich

100 episodes

9 months ago

Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today. Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it. This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council? THE START OF THE NASC Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC. Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do? WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL? It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow. Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold. Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation. And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again? CHANGE IN FORMULATION Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace. And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies? STUDIES AND TRIALS Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it. That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US? ONLY US COMPANIES? Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US. got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back. SPONSOR AD Thanks to Dog Love essential oils for sponsoring this episode. They say it comes in many forms. And in this case, love comes in a bottle. Our canine companions are more than just pets. They're cherished family members. So whether you have a sprightly pup, a wise old sage or a beloved friend of any age, Dog Love Oils help to enhance your pups wellbeing, and happiness. Are you tired of using chemical laden products on your precious pup? Well, Dog Love Oils has you covered. Whether it's soothing your dogs hotspots, protecting them from pesky fleas and ticks, aiding digestion, relieving sore joints, or simply promoting overall wellness, Dog Love Oils has crafted top quality natural solutions for you. What makes these elixirs stand out? Well, it's all about quality and Dog Love Oils uses only the finest pure therapeutic grade essential oils, ensuring safety and effectiveness for both dogs and their human companions. And rest assured that all Dog Love Oils are blended with natural ingredients and expertly diluted and tested to be dog safe. Show your love by going to https://www.dogloveoils.com/ today and explore their wide range of products designed to boost your best friend's well being. And here's a special treat during the entire month of December, enjoy a generous 15% off every order of $25 or more by using the code WAGOUTLOUD . Dog Love Oils… love in a bottle. And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit? TRUST, BUT VERIFY Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background? You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency. I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there? MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day. Good for you. So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do. Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC? So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member. And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you? HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake. Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business. Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing. We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right? Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that? WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION? Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional. Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally. Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement? HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that? Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today? Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening. Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes. OFFER: And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division. So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. It's an honor. Thanks again to Dog Love Oils for sponsoring this episode and for their unwavering dedication to our beloved canine companions. Save 15% off any of their exceptional products during the month of December 2023. By using code WAGOUTLOUD on your purchase of $25 or more. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

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“Adopt Don’t Shop” vs. Responsible Dog Breeding

Wag Out Loud

36 minutes 29 seconds

2 years ago

“Adopt Don’t Shop” vs. Responsible Dog Breeding

Hi everyone, this is Krista with Episode #182 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. In the latest Association for the Prevention of Pet Obesity survey, veterinary professionals classified 59% of evaluated dogs as overweight or obese and those numbers are increasing. An easy way for you to gauge your dog's body condition is to just check out the body condition score infographic on the Association for Prevention of Pet Obesity website. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello dog lovers, I am so glad that you've tuned in for today's informative episode, we're going to be talking about adopt don't shop versus responsible dog breeding. And I am joined by Amy lane. And this is a discussion that really needs to happen. I've been looking forward to this. So Amy, thanks so much for being with me today. It's pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Amy Lane has been breeding dogs for more than 25 years and is the creator of the mini Goldendoodle. She founded the Goldendoodle Association of North America (GANA) to promote and guide the development of the Goldendoodle to achieve breed standards, while maintaining optimum health. Well, I am excited. Could you please first introduce yourself and tell us why did you want to cover this topic today? Okay, well, as you stated I am Amy Lane. I am a long longtime dog breeder, and I think that the topic of adopt don't shop doesn't cover things that people really need to know. I'd like to give some comparisons to that versus puppy mills versus a responsible breeder. Yes. And that's what we're going to cover today. And do you agree me that when it comes to dog ownership, to me, there seems to be two distinct camps. So people either believe in rescuing dogs, and then the others prefer to buy a dog from a breeder. So it's really an individual choice. And I don't think we should shame others for how they're acquiring their dog. Do you agree? Absolutely. Like I said, I've been breeding dogs for a couple of decades. And both of my children have two rescue dogs. They do not have or don't don't buy dogs or get dogs from me. They want dogs in need, so they're you know, that is something that does need to be addressed. But people that buy from a breeder should not be shamed because there are specific reasons why people seek out a breeder. Yes. So why don't we unpack this in your mind? What does responsible breeding actually mean? WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE BREEDING? Okay, well, every breed of dog out there comes with its own list of diseases and genetic deficiencies. And so from a breeder’s perspective, it's our job to do the appropriate health testing on every prospective breeding dog and weed out those that should not reproduce, and then pair dogs responsibly, to avoid creating litters that have health issues that could be avoided simply by doing health testing. And with most breeds, you know, AKC recognized breeds and breeders Is there any checks and balances to make sure breeders are breeding correctly, that they do have a really good breeding program? DOES AKC REGULATE BREEDING PROGRAMS? Not through the AKC. The AKC basically is a registry. They only allow purebred dogs to be registered their offspring to be registered, but they don't have any input into whether or not the puppies were a result of breeding a brother and a sister, or a mother and a son or a father and a daughter. They have no control over whether the two dogs that were paired together are unhealthy, or have produced previous litters with unhealthy puppies. And so again, that’s just makes them a registry, which is very different from what I think a kennel club should be. I'm involved with GANA, the Golden Doodle Association of North America, which is the kennel club for Golden Doodles And I created this organization back in 2008, to help guide the development of the golden doodle, and to do that in with the best health in mind, as well as temperament. So we have several different rules and regulations in place that are very, very different than the AKC. No dog can be registered as a breeding dog that has produced puppies, but hasn't been health tested, and proven to be worthy of reproducing. And that's our first step into creating healthy offspring purposely. Right. And I have to commend you for that. Because I know personally, you know, most of my listeners know that we lost Winston back in January. And, you know, he was a Norwich Terrier. I love the Norwich Terrier breed, I knew I wanted another one. And because they're so rare, and I'm super picky about the breeder that I choose, I thought I'd be on a waiting list for at least a year or two. We got Dutton he is a Norwich, he is amazing. And I am so blessed that we got him as soon as we did. But I was very surprised at how few, quote unquote, reputable readers there actually are. I went right to the Norwich Club of America, Judy is the executive director. And I said, Judy, who do you recommend, and she actually wanted to talk me out of the breed, because there aren't many good breeders doing the testing. So I was really disappointed that this breed that I love, that there are so few breeders to choose from. So in your mind, what percentage would you say are good golden doodle breeders, since that's the breed that you work with? That would be a number very difficult to ascertain simply because unless they are a breeder that is visible, such as being a member of GANA, we don't necessarily know about them. And I noticed there are breeders out there that are not members GANA, that aren't good breeders that are doing the health testing. But the numbers of breeders that aren't doing the health testing, and are only doing this to gain, you know, a few extra bucks, way way, outweigh the number of good breeders. And that was one of my purposes with GANA was to raise awareness about health testing and the importance of it. And the simple fact that we could avoid creating litters of puppies with known health issues that could easily be avoided with appropriate testing. Because a lot of times, that's the type of puppy that ends up in a shelter, because they've got issues and no one wants to adopt them and you can't sell them. And full litters many times are dropped off at shelters. And that that's a very sad situation that we all need to work together to raise awareness. Yes. And what do you think it is? Amy? Is it? I hate to say it is that the money that some of these breeders are just overlooking health issues that they know are there, but continue to breed that dog or those dogs? WHAT MAKES AN UNREPUTABLE BREEDER? I think it's a combination of money and or ignorance. With without the appropriate education, how is that uneducated breeder going to know to do better? So that that's, you know, one issue. The other is, it's an expensive task to raise breeding dogs and weed out the ones that don't pass something, we put our dogs to so many different tests and if they failed one single one, then they're removed from my breeding program. They are spayed or neutered and they're a pet for the rest of their life. So when you've got a breeder who owns tow or three dogs they've raised and two of them don't pass something rather than start over, they just breed those dogs. And so that that then does come down to money. And that's why the consumer needs to be so aware and and make sure the proper health testing is being done on the parent dogs. And Amy when we talk about health testing, what are we testing for? WHAT’S INVOLVED IN HEALTH TESTING? Well for each breed. It's different, different there has to be testing for the issues that are prevalent in that particular breed. So for golden doodles, we have to test for anything that is prevalent with the golden retriever and also the poodle, because a golden doodle can have any of those issues. So we for say a blue ribbon designation was GANA, we require that both parent dogs be tested and have passion rating for hip, heart, eyes, elbows at the patellas. And then we also have a list of diseases that are prevalent in one or the other poodle, or golden retriever breeds. And so, the diseases that we are testing for now and these diseases, change from time to time, as they become more prevalent, or as labs discover new diseases that they can actually test for. So the diseases we test for are ichthyosis, which comes from the golden retriever, Von Willebrand Disease which comes from the poodle, degenerative myelopathy, which can come from both. We have three different mutations of progressive retinal atrophy. One is a poodle mutation, two are golden retriever mutations. And we test for neonatal encephalitis, that's a poodle issue. And not that GANA is requiring these other two diseases, but it is something that I've been concentrating on which is Chondrodystrophy and Chondrodysplasia, which are the genes responsible for shorter legs in dogs, like Corgis and Dachshunds. Which are endearing for their breed, but undesirable in my breed. Sure. And do you test the mom and dad before each breeding? Or is it once a year? What does that look like? Well, the DNA testing needs to be done only once. So whatever the results are, we know that that we can breed a dog that is a carrier of something, but we just can't pair it with another dog that carries that same mutation. Because carriers are safe to breed, but two carriers that have the same mutation, then you have a chance of those those being paired up and when puppies inherit two of the same disease mutations, then they're affected with that disease. So DNA done once. And many times we don't even have to test puppies, because if we've tested both mom and dad, and they don't carry specific disease genes, the puppies can’t inherit them. So those puppies that would be deemed clear via parentage and not need to be tested. For the physical health testing versus the DNA disease health testing, be it the heart, the elbows, the patellas and the eyes, four of those, all but the eyes can be done just once, as long as the dog has achieved a certain age. And those are considered permanent clearances. Eyes ideally should be tested every year. And that's what's recommended in all breeds is for eyes be tested once a year, because of course vision can change over time. Sure. Well, this is all great information. Amy. We are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. SPONSOR AD Let me tell you about the dog food that I’ve been feeding to Dutton – it’s my pleasure to introduce everyone listening to Raised Right human-grade pet food. They’re a family-owned company that works with world renowned veterinarian, Dr. Karen Becker, to make “home cooked style” whole food recipes for dogs and cats that are complete & balanced through using simple ingredients. And when I say simple, I mean simple, because all of their adult dog recipes have 10 ingredients or less, with some having as few as just 7 or 8 ingredients! That’s all REAL food! Raised Right’s limited ingredient recipes are high in protein and low in carbs. Most have less than 2% carbs because they don’t use any high carb fillers like potato, rice, or pasta found in many other products. One of the most unique things about Raised Right is that they were able to formulate their adult dog recipes to meet AAFCO’s requirements for a complete & balanced diet through using ONLY whole foods, without having to add any synthetic vitamins or minerals! You can go to RaisedRightPets.com/WagOutLoud and use the coupon code PETS20 to get 20% off OF your first order of Raised Right’s human-grade pet food – I’ll quickly spell out the website that’s https://www.raisedrightpets.com/WagOutLoud Your pets will thank you! We're back everyone speaking with Amy lane. And this is such an important topic if you either want to adopt or rescue a dog or you want to get a dog from a responsible breeder, which Amy is, and she's giving us the inside scoop of what to look for. So Amy, why don't we talk about the pros and cons of each. of either buying a certain breed that we want from a responsible breeder versus a shelter or rescue dog. PROS AND CONS OF BUYING FROM A BREEDER VS RESCUE Okay, well, originally the Adopt Don't Shop slogan and movement was created to guide people away from buying from pet stores because pet stores are notoriously provide their puppies from puppy mills. And so I am 100% behind that movement, to hopefully help people realize that buying from a pet store perpetuates the puppy mills. And we all know that puppy mills are deemed places that are unfit for dogs to live and where puppies don't get the care and the attention and the socialization that they need. And then those are the puppies many times that end up in shelters because they have issues and families give up on them. What has happened is that the adopt don't shop mentality has filtered over to breeders as well. And that's where we want to guide people appropriately because without responsible breeders, we have no more production of puppies and no more production of purebred dogs. Most dogs that are in shelters are not purebred dogs, they're accident litters from people that did not spay or neuter their pet. Or they're filled with puppies from puppy mills that they couldn't sell. And we still want to have healthy dogs, purebred dogs, or purposely bred crossbred dogs. And when you get a puppy from a rescue, you are saving its life. Absolutely. But a rescue dog isn't always an appropriate dog. If you have a family with young children, you don't know the history of this dog. Why was it turned over to the shelter? Did it bite someone? Is it not good with children? Is is a heavy shedder and not appropriate for family with allergies? Is the dog three or four years old and nobody's socialized it. So it has social anxiety,? Was it never house broken properly? And now that that's a difficult situation to correct when the dog is multiple years old. So many times dogs at rescues take a special person to adopt it. Who has the time, patience and the energy to retrain the dog. And there are families that don't have that ability or that time or they have young children making it not an appropriate match. And in those situations, finding a puppy, a well bred puppy from healthy parents from a responsible breeder who's done socialization, health testing and vaccinations and deworming. So that that family can start basically, from scratch with with this puppy and grow it and mold it and train it to be a member of their family. That choice shouldn't be taken away from families. And that is being taken away. If you say you have to adopt don't shop. True. And when we talk about, let's say a backyard breeder, a breeder such as yourself, and a quote unquote puppy mill. What exactly is the difference? WHAT IS A PUPPY MILL VS BACKYARD BREEDER VS REPUTABLE BREEDER? Okay, puppy mills typically have dogs living in cages. They are not a part of the family. They are bred and deliver their litters without any human assistance. The puppies that live, live the puppies that die, die. many times they have no vaccinations. No deworming. those puppies are not handled and socialized day one by humans. So that when those puppies are sold or they leave that puppy mill at eight weeks or so, families are receiving puppies that are reactive to crowds and loud noises, don't travel well in a car and also may have inherent health issues that could have easily been avoided. And puppy mills also notoriously euthanize dogs when they're no longer producing money for them. and one step away from that is your your backyard breeder. The dogs may live wonderful lives with families, but they are being bred without proper screening and health testing. And they could be creating litters of puppies that have genetic deficiencies that may not be noticed until, say six or seven years of age, such as progressive retinal atrophy, which when a puppy inherits a gene of that from each parent, they're gonna go blind at age five, six, or seven. And it's irreversible, there's nothing you could do about it. And so, these backyard breeders are not educating themselves on health testing and on appropriate social socialization protocols, and vaccinations with deworming. So these puppies may have been raised around children. And may have some socialization skills, but they were not bred for temperament, for confirmation and health. then you go to the professional, reputable dog breeder who makes a living breeding dogs. For that person, reputation is critical. And reputation is represented by the health and longevity of the puppies they put out into the world. So a reputable breeder is going to have or be accessible to all of the puppy’s families for the life of that dog, they're going to have done all of the appropriate health testing on the parent dogs going to scan those health tests with each puppy family that purchases a puppy, they are going to provide records of deworming, vaccinations, they're going to share training tips, and offer online training programs or have an affiliation with a trainer to help their families. So basically, buying a puppy from a reputable breeder, breeder means your puppy has had the best start in life, and therefore has the best chance of developing into a mature, wonderful family dog with the support of that breeder. And another thing with responsible breeders is if anybody cannot keep a puppy, that regardless of the age that originated from that breeder, reputable breeders will take them back, they don't want that dog to end up in a shelter. They want the dog to come back to them so they can find an appropriate home for that dog to live out the rest of its life. And that is the complete opposite of what you get from a puppy mill. So if you were to tell somebody here is what you need to do when you are looking for a puppy, screening breeders, what would you say are the top three or five things that they should do their homework on? HOW TO SHOP FOR PUREBRED PUPPY If they are not, in a situation where they have the time to rehabilitate a dog, whether it's health wise, or, you know, emotionally, then they need to look for a responsible breeder that is doing health testing that is prevalent to that breed. And you can go on the AKC website or the OFA.org website and look up what issues are prevalent in each breed. And then you should be able to ask that breeder. Do you test for these? And don't take a yes answer as a definitive answer. You have the right to see those tests. And you want a dog that comes with a warranty and not just a five day warranty. You want a breeder that stands behind their puppies with a minimum of a two year genetic defect warranty. You also want a breeder that is accessible to you when you have questions and you want a breeder that says I will take that dog back from you no matter what no questions asked any phase of that dog's life? That proves you've got a breeder who stands behind their dogs and who really cares about their dogs. And just because somebody is online does not make them reputable, correct? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There are puppy mills with wonderful websites. very deceiving websites. So you need to talk with the breeder. You need to view the health testing on the parent dogs, you, we can't say, Hey, you could visit the breeder before you make a decision because breeders have a life as well. And every time somebody comes into their kennel or their home where they're raising dogs, they have to do an entire sanitation protocol to remove any germs and so forth that people bring in. And many times people visit multiple kennels in a day, and they're carrying germs from one kennel to the other. So what we like to do is offer Facetime with a breeder, where the breeder can show you the kennel, or the or the whelping area, or their puppy play areas, they can show you puppies, you can meet a dog, but you're not risking the health and well being of the dogs and their puppies. So that is something that has become very commonplace. Especially since COVID, when nobody could visit anyone. FaceTiming has been a great way for you to analyze a breeder situation and determine are they reputable? And is that where I want my puppy to come from? Great advice. Well, I'm just curious. The golden doodle is a great example where you've actually created a new breed, you've put together the golden retriever and a poodle, what is involved with creating a brand new breed? WHAT’S INVOLVED WITH CREATING A NEW BREED? Well, quite a bit actually. We and we've been developing this breed for a couple of decades now. So we actually are breeding golden doodles with golden doodles, but when you are starting with two breeds that are so very different. You know, a poodle has a curly non-shedding coat. And a golden retriever has a straight profusely shedding coat. The goal with with golden doodles are to maintain that fun loving personality of the Golden Retriever and that loyalty and the intelligence of the Poodle, but also to create a non shedding coat. So that takes use of DNA technology. Testing on each parent dog before selecting puppies out of the litter to keep for future breeding, doing DNA testing on them, and eliminating dogs that aren’t going to have the genetic makeup that you want to become prevalent in the next generation. And many times that leaves you with one puppy, that's genetically correct. But you want a selection of great temperament.s So we can take litter after litter after litter before you have a puppy that seems to be exactly the epitome of what you think a golden doodle should be to breed on from. And that's only half of breeding pair. So now you have to do that with the other half of the breeding pair that's unrelated. So it is a long process that takes a lot of education. And that's one of the things that GANA does is educate its breeders on the use of DNA technology. We now know how many curl genes a dog carries and how many shedding genes each dog carries, and the color DNA that each dog carries. So when we pair these dogs together, we know will all the puppies in the litter be non shedding? will all the puppies have a straight coat or will some have a curly coat. Will some be carriers of an issue.? You know. So all of that is fairly new, I'd say in the last 10 to 15 years, 10 years really, since we've had DNA technology at our fingertips, reasonably priced, where we can get results back quickly to help us with our breeding decisions. That's fascinating. And when you say DNA tests, because I know recently, those have come into question, when you take a rescue dog, for example, do a DNA test and I know behind the scenes that you know news companies have done this with their own dogs and tried five different tests get five different results. With the DNA testing that you're talking about for the breeding program. Is that different than a kit that anybody could just buy and find out what breeds of dog are in your dog? DNA TESTING Well with any lab, I’m sure there is a an amount of variance in accuracy, what we are testing for for diseases, unless the lab makes a horrendous mistake. It's a yes or no answer because They're looking for 0,1 or 2 genes. Zero means the dog doesn't carry it. 1 way may mean to dog is a carrier of the disease, but it's still safe, that dog won't ever be affected by the disease, or that dog carries two genes, and therefore, that dog has that disease, and it will be expressed, whatever common life is difficult for that particular disease. So that is very, very useful for us, of course, to avoid health issues, but then we have the aesthetic part of DNA testing. And that tells us, you know, whether they carry zero curl genes, or one or two curl genes, whether they have zero shedding genes, whether this dog has the capacity, to produce chocolates, or burls, or, you know, phantom, or tuxedos or party color, you know, all of that is the aesthetic side to it. And then there is the breed designation, side to it. Not all labs, do all of those in one test. But I know, for instance, Embark does all three of those. And what happened with the 3 designation is many times, for instance, look at the golden doodle, okay, one day the golden doodle may be listed a breed there. But it's always going to pull our show poodle or golden retrievers in the background, and the heritage of the Golden Retriever. You know, it wasn't just the golden retriever dropped onto the earth, it was created by crossing other breeds. So when you test that you find those ancient breeds also in there. So that I think is one of the reasons why, oftentimes, the result looks skewed. Because you're you're pulling ancient genes from founding breeds, because all of our dogs, all of our purebred dogs were created by crossing other breeds together some time in the past. Well, Amy, we are out of time. I have one selfish question that I've always wanted to ask, before we wrap up, and that is, what is a healthy amount of litters that a female could or should have before she's retired from breeding? HOW MANY LITTERS PER DOG? Well, we actually limit our dogs to four litters. But it is not due to a health concern. Our breeding dogs are raised in families so that they grow up as a single dog, or maybe one or two dogs in a family. And when that dog finishes its breeding career, it gets spayed or neutered, so we limit our litters to four. However, I have followed Dr. Hutchinson, who is one of the leading reproductive vets in the United States. And his statement is that you can breed a dog every single heat until the litter sizes decrease. And that tells you that that dog, her breeding career is coming to an end. And without getting too technical. Every time a dog comes into heat, they shed the lining of the uterus. And it's exactly as harmful to their well being as having a litter of puppies, and therefore having a litter or not literally as long as they're not spayed and they're going through a heat cycle, they experience basically the same thing. So that could give you 10 litters. 2 litters from from a single dog. As long as she is healthy, bounces back and enjoys being a mom. There really isn't a limit to how many litters a dog could or should have. Thank you for all of this amazing information. Amy, where can everyone find out more information about you and your Fox Creek Farm golden doodle breeding program? Well, our website is very easy to remember it's Goldendoodles.net N E T. We are Fox Creek Farm. So that's what you will see when you open up the website. Wonderful. Well, Amy, thank you for being a responsible breeder. And for being a founder of GANA, that is an amazing program. If only all breeds had something like that, that would be amazing. So I really want to commend you for all of the hard work that you do in your program. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure today. Thanks again to the team at Raised Right for being our monthly sponsor. Raised Right does it right, with human-grade, complete and balanced, limited ingredient pet food. Why not get some raised right for your cat or dog and save 20% on your first order by checking out RaisedRightPets.com/WagOutLoud. Your pets will thank you! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

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