There’s a Mushroom for That!

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Wag Out Loud

Krista Karpowich

100 episodes

9 months ago

Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today. Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it. This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council? THE START OF THE NASC Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC. Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do? WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL? It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow. Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold. Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation. And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again? CHANGE IN FORMULATION Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace. And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies? STUDIES AND TRIALS Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it. That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US? ONLY US COMPANIES? Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US. got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back. SPONSOR AD Thanks to Dog Love essential oils for sponsoring this episode. They say it comes in many forms. And in this case, love comes in a bottle. Our canine companions are more than just pets. They're cherished family members. So whether you have a sprightly pup, a wise old sage or a beloved friend of any age, Dog Love Oils help to enhance your pups wellbeing, and happiness. Are you tired of using chemical laden products on your precious pup? Well, Dog Love Oils has you covered. Whether it's soothing your dogs hotspots, protecting them from pesky fleas and ticks, aiding digestion, relieving sore joints, or simply promoting overall wellness, Dog Love Oils has crafted top quality natural solutions for you. What makes these elixirs stand out? Well, it's all about quality and Dog Love Oils uses only the finest pure therapeutic grade essential oils, ensuring safety and effectiveness for both dogs and their human companions. And rest assured that all Dog Love Oils are blended with natural ingredients and expertly diluted and tested to be dog safe. Show your love by going to https://www.dogloveoils.com/ today and explore their wide range of products designed to boost your best friend's well being. And here's a special treat during the entire month of December, enjoy a generous 15% off every order of $25 or more by using the code WAGOUTLOUD . Dog Love Oils… love in a bottle. And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit? TRUST, BUT VERIFY Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background? You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency. I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there? MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day. Good for you. So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do. Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC? So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member. And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you? HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake. Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business. Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing. We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right? Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that? WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION? Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional. Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally. Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement? HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that? Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today? Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening. Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes. OFFER: And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division. So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. It's an honor. Thanks again to Dog Love Oils for sponsoring this episode and for their unwavering dedication to our beloved canine companions. Save 15% off any of their exceptional products during the month of December 2023. By using code WAGOUTLOUD on your purchase of $25 or more. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

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There’s a Mushroom for That!

Wag Out Loud

35 minutes 9 seconds

2 years ago

There’s a Mushroom for That!

Hello there this is Krista with Episode # 175 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and I've tried that I know, like and trust. Products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life. And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for you and your dog. Here are some interesting stats. The folks at the Dog Aging Project found that odds of Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, also known as CCD increased 52% with each additional year of age. However, among dogs of the same age, those that were not active were 6.47 times more likely to suffer from CCD, compared to those that were very active. A trend seen in humans as well. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr Rob Silver graduated from Colorado State University’s College of Veterinary Medicine in 1982, and began his practice of holistic medicine shortly thereafter. Dr Silver was a pioneer in the use of ozone, home prepared diets, acupuncture and Chinese herbs, and the use of nutraceuticals like turmeric, cannabis, CBD and medicinal mushrooms. Dr Silver is currently designing a full range of mushroom products for many of the conditions pets can suffer from, and for wellness for Real Mushrooms as their Chief Veterinary Officer. Dr Silver has just completed his second book: The Healthy Pet Handbook: A Guide to the Use of Cannabis, CBD and mushrooms for Dogs Cats and Horses. Publication date pending. Hello, dog lovers, we so appreciate you listening in as I chat with Dr. Rob Silver. And we are talking about There's a Mushroom for That. So Dr. Rob, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself, and share how you started using medicinal mushrooms in your holistic veterinary practice. Absolutely, Krista. Thank you so much for inviting me today so I can share some of my successes with your listeners. So I'm a I'm kind of an old timer. I graduated from Colorado State University's College of Veterinary Medicine in 1982. And at the time, I thought I knew everything I needed to know to to do battle with all these awful diseases that our pets get. After a couple of years, I got frustrated with some of the chronic diseases, things like diabetes, or Cushings and cancer, you know, it's just were not really very well addressed by the stuff I learned in school. So I started reaching out to learn other things. And in the process, I learned about diet, nutrition and offered home, you know, home cooked meal recipes to my clients. I explored acupuncture, Chinese herbal, Western herbal medicine, used some nutraceuticals and and really was very comfortable with being able to help my patients so much better. So as I was trying to address cancer in my patients, I started using a mushroom for that. And that was many, many years ago, and I actually had to get the dried reishi mushroom and I had to fix it up myself the way we have to boil it in hot water to extract all the goodies that it contains. And I did see what I would say were good results. Did I cure cancer, No, but I saw quite a bit of benefit in terms of quality of life, and my patients living much longer than the oncologist had predicted. So that's really what got me started with this. And over the years, I've you know, I practice for 30-35 years. I retired from practice to help pet parents with their pets. And so as a result, I've written books, I write articles, I speak nationally on the topic, you know, participate in these kinds of events, to spread the word that there is a mushroom for that. You know, be it cancer, you know, be it anxiety, you know, be it energy and performance being you know, chronic GI problems. There's so many different issues that our pets have that mushrooms can help and there are specific questions that have specific abilities to help with certain conditions. Well, that leads me right into my next question. You are perfect. Dr. Rob, since our focus is on dogs on this show, what would you say are the power mushrooms that bring the most benefits to our dogs? Well, I really think that any mushroom that has medicinal properties, which is everyone, even the little white button mushrooms that we eat for dinner, have medicinal properties. But in general, I would say that I look at reishi, the Ganoderma mushroom as having you know, quite a few properties, I wouldn't I really couldn't, I couldn't pick one actually, because each one has such unique abilities. You know, I like the reishi, personally, because it kind of settles my energy, and it helps me feel better. In general, I'm getting older, with some arthritic problems, and it's very anti inflammatory helps me with all of that. But really, you know, it could just as easily be Chaga, which technically is not a mushroom. Chaga is actually mycelium growing into the birch tree. Chaga has a wide range of applications, we think of it for cancer, but it's great for GI and also can work with allergies, because it has anti histaminic properties. Might talk about Lion's Mane for dogs, for those poor dogs that are the older dogs that have a little bit of cognitive issues, or for their parents, you might have some memory issues, you know, the lion's mane can be very helpful. And of course, our you know, Turkey Tail, you know, is dominant really, when we think about cancer, historically, for hundreds of years, Turkey Tail has been what the practitioners have selected to help treat their patients for cancer, because it has so many strong beta glucans in it. So I'm really hard pressed to select one specific mushroom. I love Shiitake maybe Shiitake which is such a wonderful edible mushroom, you know, and has great properties in terms of in terms of helping with fat metabolism in the body with immune system modulation, you know, I’m hard put, to name a single mushroom to answer your question, Krista. Because there's so many good ones. I know. If they've been around for so long, hundreds of years., why does it seem that these mushrooms are just coming onto the scene when it comes to Canine health? That it's more recent? Well, I think that a lot of it has to do with the evolution of our relationship with our pets, you know, no longer are our pets. You know, I mean, certainly we have many pets that are working animals, but the companionship that our pets offer, they become four legged family members for sure. And mushrooms have been a part of the human tradition for hundreds of years. So to me, it's logical that as we're looking around the world, to see what natural substances can help benefit our pets, that we would naturally gravitate towards the kingdom of fungi and to mushrooms in general. And I think that's one of the main reasons and then another reason is, as companies have been developing products that make it easy for humans to to take the mushrooms instead of having to take the dried mushroom and boil it, you know, boil it down to like a soup, you know, they're offering them as capsules and powders and, you know, and even for pets, now we've got them in soft chews, you know, so I think the human company, the companies that were making it for humans, recognize this relationship that people have with their pets, and see it as an opportunity to help the pets as well as to expand their businesses. So I think that is my explanation for why it's only recently. But boy the speed with which, the you know, the pet parents are adopting mushrooms for, you know, to help their pets be well or to help manage chronic problems is is amazing. It's it's really the fastest growing industry in the dietary supplement industry in general, statistically. Really? So that surpasses CBD? You know, in terms of the cost of the product, CBD is more expensive. So if you look at it in terms of dollar figures, no, I think CBD is, you know, a much more lucrative industry so to speak. But I think, you know, in terms of the applications, you know, mushrooms have no controlled substance issues with them, there's no well there's no real stigma placed on mushrooms the way it's placed on marijuana and THC. And marijuana and THC. Although certainly when used properly can be very beneficial. Most often is not used properly and drives dogs to the ER so you know, mushrooms are safe. And mushrooms are not controlled substances, except for psilocybin, but we're starting to expand our our imagination around the the applications for psilocybin as well and research is supporting it so and we're seeing legalization so I think it's really a number of different factors, you know, that has contributed to the rise in the mushroom industry. And I really do think that it surpasses the CBD industry. I was very involved in, you know, in introducing CBD to pet parents to veterinarians back in 2015 when it started to get a little more legal. And I switched to working with mushrooms just because it is I think the next best thing. I even had a slideshow, I’d show to vest where I would talk about mushrooms, I'd say the next best thing after cannabis because it really I don't know if it's the next best thing but it is every bit as good if not better in terms of helping our pets. Right and can even be used in conjunction with CBD. Well, absolutely. In fact, I've been working on developing protocols that involve blending the use of mushrooms with the use of CBD. There's good studies now show CBD can help with allergic patients. There's good studies that show that Reishi, the Ganoderma mushroom and Chaga both have antihistaminic properties in them much like our and much like our Benadryl, but without all the downsides. So yeah, a lion's mane, you know, for calming and settling, you put Lion's Mane together with some CBD and it's a very calming experience. So yeah, I think to work together synergistically and, and actually mate with some of the main… I don't want to get too technical, but they are involved with some of the same membrane receptor systems. So yeah, no, it's it's fascinating. That’s awesome. Well, Dr. Rob, you mentioned before, that we even have chews available with mushroom, in your opinion, do tinctures in liquid form, powders or chews, do they all have the same bioavailability? in my opinion, it’s not really my opinion, based on what I've learned from reading the studies. In order to extract the beneficial beta glucans from the mushrooms, you know, we have to use the hot water extraction process. But if the the mushrooms and the beta glucans themselves, tend to not be as water soluble as we would like them to be for a liquid extract. So we do, there are several different types of active ingredients in mushrooms, and some of them are water soluble, and some of them are fat soluble. So it's hard to put them both together in the same liquid format where it is easier to have them in the same solid format. So generally tinctures that could be if they're alcoholic tinctures. Not ethanol, so not for alcoholics. But they have alchohol in them. Let me just correct that. If they're if they're based in alcohol, then they probably have the fat soluble terpenes and tri terpenes, which are so powerful in our mushrooms, and they're very good. But they don't have beta glucans, which in the whole mushroom, we get both of them. If it's a if it's a powder, it is probably going to have the beta glucans. But the fat soluble components can also be put in there as well. So I so it also depends on what you want, you know, if maybe you're looking for the activities that tri terpenes have maybe been a tincture using alcohol or it's in vegetable glycerin could very well be effective for what you're using it for. But I think in general, we want more of a broad spectrum of activity with all of the active ingredients in there. And so that's why I feel that the best form would be in a powder that could be put in a capsule, it could be tapped in put in tablets could be put into a soft chew. Those are all formats, I think are much more compatible with providing the full potency of the full mushroom. Okay, well thank you for that. I hope I'm not getting too technical. No, we love to geek out on this show. This is perfect. Okay, then you came to the right place. We appreciate it. Well, Dr. Rob geek, not all mushrooms are created equal. So when we're buying medicinal mushroom products for our dogs, what should we be looking for? Well, right now in the production of products that are labeled as containing mushrooms there are there's really two types of products that we see in the marketplace. And many of these are products that are very familiar I'm sure with your listeners, and it has to do with how they're cultivating the mushrooms. And in the cultivation of mushrooms we first grow that mycelium on grain. We call that grain spawn. And once the mycelium has grown through the grain we take that mycelium grain and we put it on the special substrate that mushrooms grow on some mushrooms grow on dead or dying wood, some mushrooms grow in compost or leaf litter or manure. So once you put the mycelium grain on that appropriate substrate, the mycelium grows through substrate and when environmental conditions are right, it produces the mushroom and when we analyze the mushroom for beta glucan, which is really the secret sauce in most mushrooms, we find it to be 25 to 50%. But there are some production methods in which they take the grain spawn. And they that's it, they dry it, and they powder it. So it's primarily 50 to 60% carbohydrates from grain. And when we measure the Beta Glucan content of these types of products, the beta glucans are often only 20% or less than what we find in the real mushrooms. So we call these mycelium on grain products and some companies promote them. They they believe that the mycelium on grain is a very, very potent medicinal product. But I haven't seen the studies that really support that. And when we look at the levels of the active ingredients in the mycelium on grain, they're so low, you would have to take an awful lot of it to get a comparable amount from a small, much smaller comparable amount of actives from a much smaller amount of the mushroom itself. This is why the company that I'm with calls itself Real Mushrooms because that's what we sell real mushrooms. Some of the companies that sell the the mycelium on grain, call it mushroom, and I don't like that that's not that's not that's not transparent. That's and many pet parents don't want to feed their pets, grains, you know, and especially carbohydrates, cancer patients, we don't want to feed them much in the way of carbohydrates because carbohydrates feed the cancer. So I'm working right now within the industry to try to get some standards for labeling language so that it can be clear to the consumer. If the consumer feels and believes that the mycelium on grain is what they want for their pets. That's great. They should have that labeled on the product. So they can select that and give that to their pet. On the other hand, if a pet parent wants to give the higher potency mushrooms that they need to know that if it says mushroom on the label, it's a mushroom, it's not mycelium on grain. So that's my whole. And that's actually something that has less to do with real mushrooms and more to do with my desire to protect the consumer. You know, which is a very you know, as you know, I've been I've been a vet for over forty years. I've retired from practice, but I feel like I'm still that my work. My mission still is to protect the pets and to protect their and to educate their parents to help the pets live long and healthy lives. And so this is one of my missions is to get that information out. Thank you for all you do. We appreciate it. Hey, Dr. Rob, we are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back so hold tight. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic? Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons. But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy! I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls. They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free! Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy! Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we're back everybody with Dr. Rob Silver and we are talking about there's a mushroom for that. And Dr. Rob, I love how you just broke down the differences in the products that are available to us to buy for our dogs. So why don't we now talk? You mentioned in the beginning that each mushroom, they might have similar active ingredients but they each address different issues that our dogs are facing. So for the usual that, you know most of our dogs have allergies or GI issues or we mentioned cancer. Can you just break down maybe some of your favorite mushrooms and what they would be good for addressing in our dogs? Yes, I'd love to do that. Thank you. And I'll start with the mushroom of immortality, the reishi mushroom, and I mentioned it multiple times, because it really is my favorite mushroom. And it has been probably one of the more recognized mushrooms for centuries and centuries, you know, in ancient China, the Chinese would bring would find these huge specimens of the mushroom, and they would bring it as an offering to the Emperor because it's an honor to the, to the person to to give that as a gift to the Emperor and with the thought was conveyed Long life to the Emperor and Reishi has really hundreds of molecules that are active in it, it has these Beta Glucan molecules that are very specific for improving the immune system. It has these tri terpenes, which are these volatile molecules, a terpene is something like if you squeeze a lemon and you smell that lemon smell, that's a terpene, that's limonene. Well, the terpenes in mushrooms are much larger, not so volatile, as in lemons, but they have very strong effects on the immune system and on the body as a whole. Reishi is known as a meditation aid for Zen masters, because it has a calming effect. Reishi has an antihistiminic effect. It has all those beta glucans and all this other molecules in it, which improve immune system function. So that's Reishi. The only downside to Reishi is because it's so potent. It's a very bitter tasting mushroom, I have to take it, I'm taking the powder in my espresso, because it matches that bitterness. So it does come in capsules. And when I formulate into soft chews, it's always a challenge to try to mask that taste. So there doesn't because you want whatever you like stuff to specially need to be palatable. So I love Reishi .After reishi, I would say the next mushroom I would talk about is Turkey Tail . Turkey tail’s gotten everybody's attention, because of a couple of studies with dogs and hemangiosarcoma. Over the centuries Turkey Tail has been the choice that humans use for their own cancer because Because Turkey Tail has the highest Beta Glucan content of any mushroom at all. Plus it has 17 different types of beta glucan in it. So that's part of why it has that potency. Plus it has those triterpenes, which also have anti cancer properties as well. So I think of Turkey Tail for cancer, and I think of it for infections. I took a lot of Turkey Tail during the pandemic, and I was able to escape getting that disease up until, you know, just a couple of months ago. Oh, so yeah, but it's you know, it was very it was like transient and after 24 hours, it's gone. After Turkey Tail, I would say Lion's Mane. now lion's mane is the most popular mushroom in America today. Because it helps with it helps with memory. Oh, yeah, that's it. And also because it helps with memory, and it helps with stress helps with some dementia as well. We think that it has a good application for senior dogs who are a little fuzzy in their thinking. The vets call it canine cognitive disorder, Lion's Mane can work can appears to work really well for that. We need, we need to get some studies going to support that. I'm currently looking talking with some behaviorists about putting something together in that regard. So Lion's Mane traditionally was used for GI complaints, primarily upper GI complaints and GI cancer, you know, so those are some things to think about with Lion's Mane plus, it's a tasty, edible mushroom, if you can get the fresh lion's mane and cut it into steaks, it's just amazing. As far as taste, I really love it. So also, the taste of mushrooms, I think really speaks to the ability to give it to the pets. And of all the mushrooms there's only two that I think are so tasteless or bland tasting that I'm very comfortable saying that almost any cat would take them mixed in with their food. Lion's Mane is one and then the next mushroom I want to get to is called cordyceps and that's the other and in many regards cordyceps is really the ideal mushroom for cats one because they'll probably eat it. Cordyceps is in the family of mushrooms that is related to truffles and morels, so it's very tasty. I think it tastes a bit like like toast actually. And one of the neat superpowers to Cordyceps is that it supports the kidneys and it supports the lungs. So for me it's the ideal mushroom to give to a cat for wellness and certainly if you if you missed the boat starting early with it and your cat comes down with chronic kidney disease, as 85% of all animals who have chronic kidney disease are cats so they are very likely to get it you can probably support their kidneys because studies show that It does support kidney function well enough that perhaps we can avoid that disease or at least postpone until much, much later in life. So Cordyceps also has something special in it called Cordycepin, and Cordycepin is an inhibitor, I could nerd out a little bit. So, Cordycepin, inhibits a receptor in the body called the adenosine receptor, that is the same receptor that caffeine inhibits, in order to create more ATP, like molecules that create energy in the body. So Cordyceps is much like coffee in terms of creating energy, but it's like all mushrooms, it also has a calming effect on the mind. So it gives you some energy but without the jitters much in the same way that green tea could do that as well. So I'm very, I take myself I think reishi, cordyceps, and lion's mane. So yeah, they're my three favorites. I took Turkey Tail for the for the viral stuff, but there's so many other great mushrooms Chaga, which not a mushroom. It's mycelium growing in the birch tree. But Chaga also traditionally was used for its ability to support the GI system. And chaga grows into the birch tree. So it extracts this molecule from the birch bark called betulinic acid which is a terpene that also has the antihistaminic properties. It has some calming properties that has some anti inflammatory property. So Chaga is great. I know I was talking to Karen Becker. She likes to put chaga in her bathwater. I mean, there's so many applications of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the Nobel Prize literature winner when he was imprisoned in the Russian gulag, contracted cancer. He treated it with Chaga and then wrote about it in his book, Cancer Ward. So and then there's shiitake. God, who doesn't love shiitake, you know, I cook with it every night. But shiitake has actually more bioactive molecules and is more studied than almost any other mushroom there is. And it has anti cholesterol properties. But you know, dogs don't have problems with cholesterol, but they do have problems with with excessive fat and triglycerides in their blood, it can help with that. It has huge benefits. As far as the immune system, there's probably four or five commercial products that have been extracted from shiitake in Asia that are used for cancer. So and then maitake another great mushroom, as you can find it growing wild. It's supposedly the most prized edible mushroom there is. maitake has great anti cancer properties, because its beta glucans are branched much more than other beta glucans, which gives them more anti cancer value in terms of in terms of the killing of the cancer cells and stimulating the immune system to kill the cancer cells as well. Tremella is a new one. Most people probably haven't heard of it. It's called the snow fungus. And it's a prized edible in Asia. But tremella has a Hyaluronic acid like molecule in it. So many people are using it for their complexion for their skin for dry skin. It can help with joints as well, you know, so, temella also has some some benefits from meditation. I forgot to mention that lion's mane also has been shown to improve myelination. And so there's some diseases of the dog like degenerative myelopathy, which are demelanization diseases, and there's some evidence that it may be helpful for that. Likewise, Lion's Mane combined with tremella can be a very powerful duo for nervous system issues. I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two, but… They're all amazing in their own way. Yeah, they are. I mean, that's why that's why I liked that phrase. There's a mushroom for that, you know, because because they do have so many different applications. And yet they have so many similar applications. You could use any mushroom, I think, to treat cancer, if you dose it high enough. And I think that's might be the next question is how do you figure out how much to give? Well, we are about to run out of time. But if you have some thoughts on that, yeah, what is the dosing? Well, there we don't, we don't really have any literature that can help guide us. In dosing animals. We have some human literature where we just use the weight of the mushroom itself. There's how many grams that you take daily, but one of the things I'm liking working with Real Mushrooms is all of their mushroom products are standardized to their Beta Glucan content. So I developed a way of dosing based on the amount of beta glucan in a given mushroom, so it applies to all the mushrooms. So we have a lot of literature and I invite your listeners to to check out the website and look we're very strong in education because there is so much still to teach and learn about mushrooms. Absolutely. Well, you are the Chief Veterinary Officer of Real Mushrooms. I am a huge fan, I take them myself and give them to my dog. So anybody that wants to check out RealMushrooms.com I am an affiliate because I believe in the products and take them myself as I mentioned. So I offer a 10% discount with the code WOL. So I will put all of this in the show notes. And as we're wrapping up, Dr. Rob, I know that you also own Well Pet Dispensary. What is that all about? Well, I started the Well Pet Dispensary about nine years ago. And on it I as I retired from practice, I still felt the need to give back to the pet to pet parents and to pets. And so I wanted to offer a website where I could offer many of the same products that I used in practice to help address certain serious diseases. I focus on diseases like cancer and chronic bowel diseases and neurologic diseases primarily in terms of the products I have. So I use the Well Pet Dispensary as a platform to sell my own branded CBD CBG tincture, and my soft chews as well. I also sell Real Mushrooms there. But I bet if you're looking for Real Mushrooms, I suggest you go through Krista because she's she's such a strong supporter of Well Pet Dispensary. I also have a blog site called Nurse Your Pet, which I share with a equine holistic vet, and a board certified canine rehab practitioner. So those are, you know, just just trying to help the pet parents out there. Create long and healthy and happy lives together with their four legged family members. And we so appreciate that. Well as we are about to sign off. Dr. Rob, you know, we just mentioned the Well Pet Dispensary. And he is giving our listeners a huge opportunity to try out these amazing products. Use Discount Code wagoutloud25 at WellPetDispensary.com. That is amazing. I will also put the Nurse Your Pet information in the show notes as well. So Dr. Rob, we are about to sign off. Do you have any closing words of wisdom for us? Social Media URLs or Tags Instagram: @docrobsilver Facebook: @docrobsilver LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-robert-j-silver/ Well, just love your pets. Yes, I think that's probably it right there. Love your pets and do good by them and learn from them because they have so much to teach us. Well, you have taught us a lot as well. So Dr. Rob, thank you for being on. And thank you for educating pet parents on how to help their pets live a longer, happy, healthier life. So I appreciate you being here today. I appreciate being here to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, Krista. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston. Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? 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