Co-Regulation: An Intuitive Approach to Trauma Recovery for Both Ends of the Leash

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Wag Out Loud

Krista Karpowich

100 episodes

9 months ago

Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today. Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it. This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council? THE START OF THE NASC Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC. Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do? WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL? It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow. Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold. Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation. And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again? CHANGE IN FORMULATION Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace. And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies? STUDIES AND TRIALS Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it. That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US? ONLY US COMPANIES? Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US. got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back. SPONSOR AD Thanks to Dog Love essential oils for sponsoring this episode. They say it comes in many forms. And in this case, love comes in a bottle. Our canine companions are more than just pets. They're cherished family members. So whether you have a sprightly pup, a wise old sage or a beloved friend of any age, Dog Love Oils help to enhance your pups wellbeing, and happiness. Are you tired of using chemical laden products on your precious pup? Well, Dog Love Oils has you covered. Whether it's soothing your dogs hotspots, protecting them from pesky fleas and ticks, aiding digestion, relieving sore joints, or simply promoting overall wellness, Dog Love Oils has crafted top quality natural solutions for you. What makes these elixirs stand out? Well, it's all about quality and Dog Love Oils uses only the finest pure therapeutic grade essential oils, ensuring safety and effectiveness for both dogs and their human companions. And rest assured that all Dog Love Oils are blended with natural ingredients and expertly diluted and tested to be dog safe. Show your love by going to https://www.dogloveoils.com/ today and explore their wide range of products designed to boost your best friend's well being. And here's a special treat during the entire month of December, enjoy a generous 15% off every order of $25 or more by using the code WAGOUTLOUD . Dog Love Oils… love in a bottle. And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit? TRUST, BUT VERIFY Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background? You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency. I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there? MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day. Good for you. So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do. Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC? So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member. And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you? HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake. Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business. Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing. We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right? Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that? WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION? Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional. Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally. Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement? HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that? Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today? Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening. Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes. OFFER: And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division. So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. It's an honor. Thanks again to Dog Love Oils for sponsoring this episode and for their unwavering dedication to our beloved canine companions. Save 15% off any of their exceptional products during the month of December 2023. By using code WAGOUTLOUD on your purchase of $25 or more. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

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Co-Regulation: An Intuitive Approach to Trauma Recovery for Both Ends of the Leash

Wag Out Loud

35 minutes 42 seconds

2 years ago

Co-Regulation: An Intuitive Approach to Trauma Recovery for Both Ends of the Leash

Hello! This is Krista with Episode #185 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and tried that I know, like, and trust. Also products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com And check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well. It's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. Many people think that with their dogs, tummy troubles, that itchy skin or infected ears are all a result of a food allergy. But true food allergies are really pretty rare, only affecting about 1- 3% of dogs. So most likely your dog's issues have developed over time and would be considered a result of a food intolerance. The main culprits of food allergies and intolerances are wheat, chicken, beef, and dairy, as well as additives and chemicals that are commonly found in highly processed dog food. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Sharon Vincuilla is an occupational therapist who did her doctoral residency in the Los Angeles community-based mental health system. She developed group and individual programs for adults living with serious mental illness to support nervous system regulation, executive function, and participation in daily activities. Sharon also has over 15 years experience as a dog trainer and behavior consultant, specializing in rescue rehab, anxiety, and aggression. Sharon has come to recognize that beneath the struggles of both dogs with behavior problems and adults with mental illness lie trauma, sensory hypersensitivity, and nervous system dysregulation. So, she started Human Canine Collaborative to offer virtual coaching and classes to teach humans how to support themselves AND their dogs through trauma recovery, reactive behavior modification, and stressful circumstances by learning how to co-regulate with each other. Hi there dog lovers, how lucky are we to learn from today's guest, Sharon Vincuilla, and she is going to cover co-regulation; an intuitive approach to trauma recovery for both ends of the leash. So Sharon, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Krista. I'm really delighted to be here today, I can't wait to learn from you. So before we get started, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. And just give us a little more about your amazing background and why you started the Human Canine Collaborative. Sharon’s Background and Findings Yeah, thanks for that prompt. My name is Sharon and my pronouns are she/her. And I'm a Doctor of Occupational Therapy and a Canine Behavior Consultant. I began my career in dog training, working as a dog trainer at a kennel facility doing boarding and training and group classes and private sessions. And at the same time, I was volunteering with my own dogs, taking them to visit nursing homes and children's courts and schools. And it was through that volunteer work that I got introduced to occupational therapy. And I decided to go back to school because I wanted to do animal assisted therapy, full time. And while I was doing OT, I specialized my training in community based mental health, as many mental health providers do, I was searching for more understanding of myself, and also wanting to be able to better support people who are struggling with various mental health conditions, who also live with dogs. And I noticed it through that work that there were a lot of people who found a lot of support from their dogs. And there were a lot of people who were struggling to be able to live with dogs because of their symptoms. And I also noticed this parallel between the symptoms that my clients were experiencing, my human clients who had experienced trauma, and the dogs who I'd worked with who were behaving with reactivity and aggression and anxiety. And I noticed that same parallel in myself in my own struggles with mental health and anxiety. And I realized that the common denominator for all of us is nervous system regulation. When we can't regulate our nervous systems, we have a hard time doing the things that we need and want to do every day. Well, you're in the perfect spot with your background and doing this and I think every listener here today is going to learn something for themselves. You don't have to be suffering from some major trauma to get something out of this, right? That's absolutely right. Every human has a nervous system and all of us will benefit from learning about our nervous systems and understanding what our bodies are trying to tell us. Right. And I hate to say it, but our nervous systems never switch off. Well Sharon the cool thing is, I think we all know by now that there's tons of studies out there that have demonstrated the calming and distressing effect that our dogs do have on us. So I love that we're going to dig a little deeper on the relationship that we have with our dogs and how they can help us. So let's talk about trauma. How do you define trauma specifically, when it comes to talking about our trauma, as well as our dog's? Trauma Trauma, I look at trauma as any stressful situation that is beyond one's ability to cope. And so I really like that definition, because it highlights how subjective trauma is, right? So what's traumatic for me is not necessarily going to be traumatic for you. That makes total sense. And people love to hear stories and examples. So what are some examples of some different types of trauma that we experience? Trauma Example Well, I'll get I'll be real specific and tell you about my own experience. Sure. So my experiences that have been traumatic, have involved all kinds of things. I mean, I can remember being very young, and being on the school bus. And there were some boys behind me that were teasing me. And they were poking me. And I, and they were saying something like, Hey, little girl. And I was like, at a new school. So this was all like, everything was kind of overwhelming to me. And I was very sensitive, in my touch system. And in my sound system. So like hearing things and feeling things on my skin could feel very overwhelming. And so having having these kids behind me, saying things that sounded like taunting, and then poking me unexpectedly, that was a really traumatic situation. And I didn't have the skills to be able to cope with that. And so that has stayed with me, throughout my life. That's a great example. And I can just think, I mean, for both us and our dogs, major life events, like, you know, natural disasters, a move, a divorce, being attacked. You know, I think of all of these that could have a lasting effect on our lives. Traumatic Situations Yeah, yeah, there are so many situations that result from the environment, from weather, but also situations that arise in relationships with other people that can have a have an impact on us, because we because of the fear that's involved, and the threat to our lives, or our survival. But also, because of that, going back to that idea of like, we don't have the skills to cope, or when we don't have the skills to cope. That is when our nervous systems really can overreact and change permanently, in order to try to improve the coping ability. Should there be a next time? Well said, that makes it easy to understand. So let's go back to the title of this episode, you're going to talk about Co-regulation. What does that mean, in relation to our central nervous systems? What is Co-Regulation? So I'm gonna define self regulation first. Yep. So self regulation is shifting your nervous system from one state to another. And we have three states. So one state, and each state is kind of like a setting that the nervous system goes into where there are different combinations of organs that are turned on, so that we can do different things. So one setting is called immobilize. That's our rest and digest setting. And then we also have a mobilized setting, that's our exercise, play and fight or flight setting. And then we have a social connected setting. And that's where we have all of our listening abilities turned on and our ability to talk to others. And the part of our brain that is engaged with teaching and learning is also turned on in that setting. Okay, so that's self regulation. Yeah, exactly. So co-regulation is when you shift the nervous system from one state to another, with another. So with humans, human parents co regulate with their infants all the time, the baby cries and then you go and pick them up and swaddle them, or rock them or coo at them. And that helps them to calm their body and shift into a calmer state. And they can't do it. By themselves. They don't have the ability to. And we can also co regulate with any other living beings. So we can co regulate with dogs. Also, we can co regulate in terms of doing an activity with our dogs that supports our nervous system, and theirs in shifting to another state. That's the good stuff right there. Absolutely. Well, Sharon, I know that you have had a journey with your own dog Muggins. And I know you shared the story with me. I would love for you to talk about that again now with our listeners. Sharon’s Journey with Muggins Yeah, thanks for asking about that again. So I adopted Muggins. I also use they/them pronouns with logins, just to give myself some practicing with using those pronouns. So I adopted Muggins when they were three and a half months old, from the shelter. And they were having a hard time getting adopted because they were very stressed. And they really wanted to interact with people, but they also were just very impulsive at such a young age, and were biting everything. And so they were biting people who are coming to meet them and trying to adopt them. And so I, knowing that I had the skills to be able to help a dog like this, I decided that would take Muggins home. And at the time, I was recovering my own post traumatic stress after graduate school. And after moving across the country, in the middle of COVID, to support my sister in law who had suffered a brain injury. So, so I was in between jobs I hadn't, I had just started to rebuild my business. And I had all this time available. And so I adopted Muggins. And the first thing I noticed about Muggins was that Muggins was sort of like, had a lot of nervous system inflammation, I guess is the way I like to think about it. Like they would get really overwhelmed really quickly with being around a lot of activity. So if we went somewhere to like a park, where there's kids playing or other people walking their dogs or squirrels M uggins would be really overwhelmed, would do a lot of zoomies. So a lot of running around me in circles, not really having any conscious thought about it, would want to just grab everything that went near their mouth. So if I walked past them, they would grab my pant leg, I moved my hand close to their mouth, they would be grabbing my hand, if I had a toy, they would grab the toy. And then they would just not really have a lot of rhythm with their sleeping and waking cycle and their appetite cycle. So they would have a hard time falling asleep. And they would like sometimes they would not be hungry at all. And then other times they would be intensely hungry and irritable. And there didn't seem to be any sort of regular pattern like this wasn't happening at the same time of day, every day. And dogs thrive on that. Yes, yeah. We always hear about our we always know about dogs who come and get us when it's time to eat. Right, right before we even look at the clock. Just routine that you know, they feel comfortable when there's a routine. So poor Muggins didn't have one. Exactly. Yeah. And so that was what I tried to do first was to help Muggins have a routine specifically for eating and sleeping. Those are like the foundations of the nervous system and of survival, right. So I would really pay close attention to Muggins’ signals, like if they started to get sleepy, like if they were blinking their eyes more, or laying down a lot instead of playing, then I would direct them into our bedroom where it was dark and cool and less stimulation and then help them go to sleep. And then I would pay attention to their activities or like their behaviors that might demonstrate that they're hungry, like are they poking around in the kitchen, or are they trying to bite more than normal? And then I would make Make sure that they would get food as soon as I thought they were hungry. And also, along with that I started to teach Muggins behaviors that they can use to tell me when they're hungry or to tell me when they're tired, so that they would have more of an awareness of what they need and then be able to tell me in an appropriate way, instead of an inappropriate way, Right. Hey, Sharon, we are halfway through so I am going to take this opportunity to take a quick sponsor break and we'll be right back. Sounds great. Thanks to our sponsor, CBD Dog Health. It is one of the very few CBD companies that I feel confident in recommending. And here's just a few reasons why. They're full spectrum, hemp derived CBD products, are extracted from high quality hemp grown here in the US with no use of herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. They're legal in all 50 states with less than point 3% THC, non GMO, full of active cannabinoids, such as CBD, CBG, CBN, and CBDa. Their processing uses supercritical co2 extraction. They're manufactured with 100% food grade ingredients, tested by a third party laboratory and available for home delivery to all 50 states. Check out the quality CBD Dog Health products and help your dog find relief at CBDdoghealth.com. And be sure to use the code WOL for 20% off. Trust in a company that is passionate about helping your pet live their very best life. And we're back speaking with Sharon Vincuilla , and this is just so fascinating. We're talking about co-regulation, and how we can help ourselves and our dogs. So both ends of the leash. And Sharon, you were just telling us about your journey with Muggins. And how you kind of reshaped Muggins to be more of a normal dog. And didn't you tell me that the litter was abandoned at four weeks old? Muggins’ Trauma That's right, yeah. Muggins had to littermates. And they were born in Tennessee. And they were dropped off at a shelter down there at four weeks old. And then they were lucky enough to be put into foster care for a while. And then they were brought up to New York where I live. And that's where I found them. And that's a lot of trauma for a new puppy. Oh, yeah, I mean, new puppies, puppies need their canine parents, right, until they're seven or eight weeks old, maybe even longer. And they also need a lot of like we were talking about before consistency and routine. And so Muggins moved in, and their litter mates moved around quite a bit before the age of two months old. So how did you get Muggins to be a more stress free, calm, dependable dog? Working with Muggins Well, it was a combination really, of providing Muggins with behaviors like skills that they could use to communicate with me. providing them with a sensory diet. So as an OT, I have a lot of training on sensory processing and how the way our nervous systems detect and integrate sensory information contributes to behavior. And in OT, we use something called a sensory diet, which is like a prescribed combination of activities and experiences throughout a day, that provide an individual with the right amounts and types of sensory input to help their nervous system to be more rhythmic and balanced. And so for dogs, well for dogs and humans, engagement in movement and balance activities is really nourishing, and engagement in touch based activities, especially touch that provides that nourishing yummy deep pressure that we feel like when our dog lays on our lap or when we hug another human. And then dogs also need a lot of opportunity to smell. They need to engage in sniffing things so that they can get information about their environment. And when they're sniffing, they're also taking deep breaths. And breathing is a really great way to support the nervous system. So let's get into it. How does co regulation work? So what would it look like co-regulation between ourselves and our dogs? Co-Regulation with Our Dogs So co regulation is really it's helping the dog build skills, and it's helping the human build skills. So when I learned to co regulate with Muggins, it was partially supporting Muggins’ ability to communicate and regulate. But also, I had to work through my own trauma and learn my own skills to help my body to feel safer and calmer. And so when I work with a client, I help them to build awareness. So I teach them about the nonverbal cues of the nervous system, so that they can look objectively at what's happening inside themselves. Like noticing like, Oh, I'm kind of tense in my shoulders right now. And my heart, I feel my heart beating faster, and my palms are kind of sweaty, so I think I'm getting stressed, maybe I need to take a break and take a walk or do some breathing. And then also learning those nonverbal cues for dogs. So noticing that, oh, you know what, my dog is moving around a lot right now. And the sound of their bark sounds kind of high pitched, and they are chewing on something, they're not supposed to be chewing. So I think my dog is frustrated. And maybe they need me to take them outside to play or give them a to item or something like that. So by building awareness of what's going on with the body, we can have a better understanding of what is needed, and then we can take action to provide for those needs. That is incredible. Well, do you think, you know, some people like to get their dogs from a rescue others like to go to a reputable breeder? Do you find more trauma in puppies from either of those? Well, it really depends. If somebody is rescuing their dog from the shelter or a rescue, it's more likely that the dog has experienced stressful events, you know, like just being in the shelter is stressful because of the noise level in the shelter. Because they, the dogs don't have as much freedom to move around. Because they have to compete for attention, they don't just get the attention of one person. So those experiences can contribute to stress and, and you could see a result like I had with Muggins. Whereas dogs from reputable breeders are generally getting a lot more attention and socialization, there is less sound in their environment, because they're usually in a home. And they are able to get their needs met when they need things. And I have to think that in this day and age, it seems like everybody is so stressed, not just stressed, but 24/7. We are in the fight or flight mode. And of course, our dogs take on our stress. And you hear about more people having panic attacks. So how do we move through different trauma with our dogs? Do you mean like, what what do we do? Like, What specifically can we do to help ourselves? Like I think of PTSD, you know, people that have PTSD, or just any of us that are triggered by certain instances, that put us in that fight or flight mode and stress and panic. Advice on How Yeah, I'm thinking of, I'm going to tell you about a practical exercise. And I'm also going to give some advice. So I think there is still a very large stigma around mental health and pursuing mental health support in our society. And I struggled with that myself, it took me a long time to be able to feel good about going to a therapist and to go regularly. But I think because a lot of people feel like if I need to see a therapist, that means I'm broken, or I'm sick, or there's something wrong with me. And I now believe that if you're going to a therapist, it's because you're human. All Humans need and deserve support to be our best selves. And if you're struggling with something where something is triggering you to have an unexpected response, and it's getting in the way of your ability to do what you need and want to do, then you deserve support. And there's no shame in that. I think that I think that's the best thing that you can do for yourself. And we also deserve to have good support for caring for our dogs. So pursuing professional help from a trainer or a veterinary behaviorist or a coach is great so that you can really be sure that like develop confidence in what you're doing with your dog, because it can be really... There's a lot of insecurity, I think when we're not sure of what to do. And I think working with a professional can really support your confidence that you're doing the right thing. And you're on the right track. So yeah, so it's like a double support would be best support for your dog and support for you. Right. And you were going to share something that we can do ourselves right away. A Practical Exercise Absolutely. One of the best practices that I have started doing with Muggins is breathing. And so that means we sit down every day together. And I focus on some deep, slow breathing for myself. And then Muggins comes over and joins me and weighs down with me. And when they do that, I start rewarding them for taking a deep breath. So if I noticed their nostrils flare or their cheeks puff a little bit, those are signs that they're inhaling, and I'll just drop a tree in front of them. Or if I notice, they put their head down on my lap or on the floor, I'll give them a treat for that. Or if I hear them give a big sigh with a big exhale, I'll give him a treat for that. And so Muggins is getting feedback about what their body is doing. They're getting rewarded for relaxing and for breathing. And what I noticed is that two things, one, if I don't do this, or if I forget to do it, Muggins will come and ask me for this breathing practice, which helps me make sure I do it every day. And two, I noticed Muggins taking deep breaths on their own outside of this practice, whenever they need to relax. And that just makes me feel so good. That's cool. Wow. And Sharon, I know I mean, it's been months and months and months since we first met. But you said something to me that we have to remember that each ourselves and our dogs need our own space. Do you want to elaborate on that? We Need Space Yeah, as a sensitive being, I'm a hypersensitive person, I also identify as neurodivergent. And so when I'm around other people a lot, my sort of like social capacity gets maxed out really quickly. And even like being with Muggins is a Muggins has a social demand, right? Muggins demands attention from me, and I have to talk to them and make decisions and give them guidance. So there's a social demand there with hanging out with Muggins. And so I need a break, I need solitude as part of my like regular routine, so that I have the ability to recharge and rest my senses and rest of my nervous system. And, and that means I need a break from Muggins too sometimes, and Muggins needs a break from me also, you know, like sometimes Muggins just wants to go take a nap and I see them and they look so cute, all curled up and one go over there and just give them kisses. And then when I do that, they just glare at me and get off the couch and go lay down somewhere else. That's great. We have to remember that because, you know, if we don't take our own space at times, that's when you get a dog that is velcroed to your hip, and has separation anxiety. So there is a fine line. And I'm glad that you told us more about that. Yeah, so glad you asked. So before we wrap up today, Sharon, I know that you have tons of examples and stories where this co-regulation worked off the top of your head, you know, we know that it worked very well with you. And Muggins is there another client that you shared this co-regulation strategy with that change their life? A Great Example Mm hmm. Yeah, I just finished up last month with a client it was a couple and their dog, an 11 year old Shib Inu named Mandu. And they came to me because they were having a lot of trouble with feeding Mandu. and Mandu had a lot of noise sensitivity which had really become overwhelming I think it had begun with a smoke alarm and and then had generalized to any sound that sounded like a beeping sound and Mandu would just panic or start trembling, be really unresponsive and withdrawn. Wouldn’t eat. And so this couple really wanted their dog to be experiencing less anxiety and be more be able to be more present and relaxed and and they also were struggling with like not being able to go out of town because they were going through all of the jumping through all these hoops to try to feed Mandu. And they were just like, we can't ask somebody else to do this. So what are we going to do? So we did six sessions of coaching. And we also collaborated with their veterinarian. So what I wanted to do was I wanted them to explore medication for the noise sensitivity, and also to explore if there was any underlying pain. Because that can all like with noise sensitivity and difficulty eating, I'm always wondering about pain. And so Mandu did get a prescription. And then we also did co regulation, and we developed a sensory diet and improved Mandu’s communication skills and improve the owner's awareness of Mandu. And it was such a delight, our last session, we were just like talking about all of the things that were different. And they were really feeling like there was so much more ease with feeding Mandu, and he was eating better. He wasn't reacting to all of the beep beep sounds anymore. He was more playful. And they were they had planned a vacation to go out of town and they found somebody who was willing to stay with Mandu. That's that's a huge success story. I love it. Yeah, cool. Well, Sharon, I know that you have a special offer for our listeners. So would you like to share what that is all about? OFFER Yeah, absolutely. I am offering a discount code. It's WOL so Wag out loud. And when you use that code to purchase anything from my site, either coaching, a recorded class or workbook, you will get 20% off 20 Oh my gosh, listeners take advantage of that. That's amazing. Thank you, Sharon, for that. You're welcome. My pleasure. And in relation to that, where can everyone find out more information about you and the Human Canine Collaborative? You can go to my website, it's https://hc-collab.com. And you can also find me on Instagram, @holisticdogexpert, all one word. Wonderful. And I'm going to have all of these links on how to get in touch with Sharon, on the show notes. So everybody can go there for easy access. And Sharon, I just want to thank you for all of your work and making such a difference. This, you know, the brain is just so complex in both us and our dogs. So for you to offer treatment options for us to live a better, less stressful, calmer, intentional life. I really want to thank you for that. You're so welcome, Krista and thank you for describing it that way. I think especially that word intentional. I think that's really key when it comes to addressing behavior and mental health the way that I do. Thank you so much. Well everybody go check out Sharon's site. Again, look for that link in the show notes. And I don't doubt that all of us have learned something new today. Social Media: IG: @holisticdogexpert FB: https://www.facebook.com/HolisticDogExpert/ LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/humancaninecollaborative/ Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to be here. Thanks, Sharon. Thanks again to our friends at CBD Dog Health for sponsoring this episode. Check out all of their amazing products like CBD enriched hemp oils for separation anxiety or traveling needs, extra strength cannabinoid formulations specifically made for more serious conditions, like PTSD or pain from cancer. Salves to treat dry skin for dogs and other ailments, like hotspots and allergies, and all natural pet treats. All of the CBD Dog Health products are made to effectively treat your pet holistically and naturally. Help your dog thrive by using the code W OL for 20% off at CBDdoghealth.com. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. 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