Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers!
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.
Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it.
This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council?
THE START OF THE NASC
Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC.
Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do?
WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL?
It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow.
Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation.
And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again?
CHANGE IN FORMULATION
Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace.
And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies?
STUDIES AND TRIALS
Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it.
That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US?
ONLY US COMPANIES?
Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US.
got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back.
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And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit?
TRUST, BUT VERIFY
Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background?
You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency.
I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there?
MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT
We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day.
Good for you.
So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do.
Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC?
So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member.
And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you?
HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS
most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake.
Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business.
Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing.
We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right?
Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that?
WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION?
Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional.
Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally.
Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement?
HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that?
Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today?
Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc
Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes.
OFFER:
And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division.
So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Thank you very much. It's an honor.
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Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers!
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.
Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it.
This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council?
THE START OF THE NASC
Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC.
Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do?
WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL?
It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow.
Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation.
And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again?
CHANGE IN FORMULATION
Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace.
And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies?
STUDIES AND TRIALS
Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it.
That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US?
ONLY US COMPANIES?
Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US.
got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back.
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And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit?
TRUST, BUT VERIFY
Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background?
You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency.
I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there?
MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT
We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day.
Good for you.
So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do.
Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC?
So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member.
And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you?
HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS
most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake.
Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business.
Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing.
We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right?
Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that?
WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION?
Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional.
Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally.
Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement?
HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that?
Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today?
Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc
Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes.
OFFER:
And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division.
So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Thank you very much. It's an honor.
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Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time.
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Hello Wag Out Loud listeners. Many of you know that last year I took a job with Dr. Judy Morgan. And to be honest, it's been a lot of work doing that AND running my Wag Out Loud business. Something has to give. So I've decided that my last Wag Out Loud episode will release at the end of this year. And it's been a great learning experience for me. And I'm so proud of all the great content that I have shared over the last four and a half years. So if any of you are interested in taking over the pawdcast, please let me know. It would be a great opportunity for someone else as passionate about canine health and wellness to carry on this legacy. And I have everything in place that I could easily teach you the ropes. So let me know. Email me at krista@wagoutloud.com
According to the American Heartworm Society, more than a million dogs in the US have heartworm disease, and the sooner you get your dog treated, the better. Once your dog is bitten by an infected insect, it takes about seven months for the larvae to mature into adult heartworms. They take up residence in your dog's heart, lungs, and surrounding blood vessels and they start reproducing. Adult heartworms can grow up to 12 inches in length, disgusting, and live five to seven years, and dogs can have hundreds of worms in their system. And if left untreated, these worms can cause severe lung disease, heart failure, and damage to other organs in the body. But the good news is that most infected dogs can be treated successfully.
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
As a professional animal healer from Ireland, Lisa Tully has an international practice working with all kinds of species using a multi-disciplinary approach. With a science background, she is grounded & informed in her holistic approach.
Hi there dog lovers and welcome to yet another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And all the way from Ireland, today's guest is Lisa Tully. And she's going to be sharing how you've become so passionate about holistic animal healing options. We're gonna be talking about how dogs can heal themselves. So Lisa, first of all, thank you so much for being on with me today.
I'm delighted to be here Krista. Thanks for having me.
Well, we've had this on the books for quite a while we were joking about that before we hit record. So Lisa, why don't you give us some information about your background, which is fascinating in itself, and share why did you want to talk about how dogs can heal themselves.
So my background is I have a degree in science, in chemistry and biology. And I worked in the pharma industry for a while for quite a while. And I got to really understand that part of the world. And I then started to become more holistic in myself as a person. And I started to meditate more and travel more. And that led me down to realize I had the ability to connect in with animals on a very deep level, maybe pick up things from them that, you know, the average person wouldn't necessarily understand. And I started to apply that and build a practice around it. And I'm forever a student. So as I understood what was going on with the animals, I wanted to help them, okay, could feel what's going on for the mentally, emotionally, physically. And what do I do once I have this information? So I started to study and I studied how to use flower essences. And then that led me down the journey of studying zoopharmacognosy. And that's a very long word. And it basically means animals that know how to self medicate. And when I first witnessed this phenomenon, where a horse was selecting between different buckets of herbs that were put down in front of him, it absolutely blew my mind. You know, I was just like, Is this possible? So I went on, you know, and I did my training for all species, dogs, cats, horses, everything. All animals can do this . And this then when I understood the zoopharmacognosy side side of it, then my background deepened even more. And because what I did then was I studied five elements, Chinese medicine for animals. And what I found then was that animals were not only able to self medicate with botanicals, and that they can actually start to self select what food is best for their body as well. Because in Chinese medicine, you really go into the energy of food. Like duck as a cold meat, lamb is a hot meat. And depending on what pathology is going on in the animal's body. And, you know, you go down that that route, now I work alongside holistic vets here in Ireland. So I'm able to really, really understand both sides of the coin. And everything I do is, you know, it's perfectly safe because the vets are there keeping an eye on the animals as well.
Wow, that is just fascinating. You've gone through a lot to get you where you are today. Wow. And would you say that over there in Ireland compared to the US, how are alternative therapies for our dogs? You know, is it more prevalent, less prevalent? Are we about the same as far as approaching within a holistic mind as far as health and wellness?
I'd say we're behind. And I think there's there's a lot more in the United States, and there's a lot more in the United Kingdom. So all the trainings that I did the professional trainings, none of them were in Ireland, I had to travel. And so you know, I am a little bit of a trailblazer here in Ireland. And there's more people coming up the ranks now that are studying with me, or studying with the teachers I studied with, so but when I started off, over, you know, 10 years ago, my practice here was pretty unheard of. And we definitely, definitely need more people to pick up the gauntlet, because I don't know about in the United States, but I know in the United Kingdom and in Ireland, we've got corporate vet practices that are just taking over. And our smaller single vet practices are being swallowed up. And people are becoming, you know, less disenchanted. You know, so we, that's why I like to work with the holistic vets that are here and we kind of spread the word.
That's great. Well, yes, unfortunately, we are having the corporate takeover with veterinary practices here as well. It's, it's happening on a rapid scale, actually. So well, let's get into this. You mentioned, when you talked about your background about the five elements in Chinese medicine? Could you dive a little deeper into examples of what that looks like? Because I don't even know because I have a dog. He might love to lay in the sun. But then he gets hot, and then he wants to be on the tile to cool himself off. So I don't know. Is he considered a hot dog or a cold dog? You know, what, should I be feeding him? So could you go a little bit more into those five elements?
FIVE ELEMENTS OF CHINESE MEDICINE
Yeah, sure, the five elements in Chinese medicine is you can have like a constitutional type or a personality type, let's say. So dogs can be a wood element, which might be the dogos there kind of be a little bit more labeled as aggressive at times or extra assertive. And they can have eye anomalies and different things like that. And they have quite a stiff looking body or even stiff feeling bodies, you know, touching them is a bit like wood. And but they're amazing animals in the sense that they will always go for an adventure, they love the challenge. So each element has its positive side and then the side that is looking to be healed. So that will be a you know, top top line stuff about the wood element. And then you would have personality types like the earth elements. And these dogs are a little bit pudgy, little bit lazy, might sleep on a little bit longer in the in the morning time. So even till lunchtime, and they're very Homeward Bound animals, they don't like change, they'll be very clingy to you. Or, or actually, they could just be super appreciative of your company. Okay, so they're the home birds, they like just things to be in routine, you know, a classic example and they're not all earth elements, but a classic example would be like a Labrador and you know, that kind of a dog or you know, a pudgy calf, am and then you would have the fire element types. So, the fire element types are are joyful, really, really get over exuberant when they're around other dogs too much, okay, they get super excited. And because they have so much joy and excitement, it can tip into anxiety, okay, and they tend to be have like really long limbs and be like a red setter, you know flowing flowing limbs or they are that type of animal where they just capture your attention, they might be a bit of a joker as well. And everybody loves them because they're very heart energy. So the woods dogs are more liver energy, the earth dogs are more spleen, pancreas, and stomach. And then the the fire are the heart energy and the small intestine. And then you have the water element type dogs, which are very, very interesting as well. And because water element types are, they're the type of dog that kind of always needs a companion dog beside them. So if you're bringing them to the vet, you bring the companion dog with them, because they'll have a meltdown. And they're the dogs that if the guests come into the house, they're hiding under the couch, the fire element dog is at the door in the guests’ faces, and the water element is just sitting there going, when are they leaving? Okay, and the earth element is sitting beside the table, going when are they going to feed me, okay? And and the wood element might be growling at them a little bit. And then you have the metal element types, which are, they're really subtle in their energy. They're delicate in their nature, they're they're smart dogs, but they're very clear on their boundaries, they might not like other dogs coming up to their face and coming in too close. And they might give a little bit of a, you know, a little indication that they want them to go away. And these are the dogs that would grieve. Okay, so if their dog leaves, their dog companion leaves or their guardian passes away, they'll silently grieve, you have to watch out for those because they have, that's the energy of the lungs, which will be the metal element types, and the large intestine. So that's a snapshot of the personality type. But going back to your question Krista, where you have a dog that lies in the sun, and then that dog then decides to go lie on the on the tiles. So when you go much, much deeper into the five elements, and you go way past their constitutional personality type, and in actual fact, every animal has every element within them, because they have all the organs within them that each element represents. And when I assess an animal that has a pathology going on, I look to see which organs are out of balance by asking all these random questions, you know, how often do they go to the toilet? Or do they pee more than they drink? Do they lie in the midday sun? You know, all these different questions give me clues. So say for example, you have a senior dog, who is getting on a little bit in life isn't quite liking the cold, likes to come in little bit, arthritic, and wintertime really, really struggles in cold environments will actually bury under the covers, okay, they might even do that at a warmer time of year, but they're the dogs that are just under the bed. And then what happens is they're so they're a water element. They're looking like a water element type animal, but it could be just that their water element is out of balance, as well. Okay, we call it typology, as in constitutional personality versus pathology, okay, an actual imbalance in the water element. So if you have that same dogo that has the kidney cold within them, they're the dogs that are going to lie in the midday sun. Okay, they're there because what they're doing is deep down they have in a coldness in their body, they've got a deficiency more than likely this you know, every animal has to be looked at individually, but I'm talking top line stuff. So then they the what happens is the kidneys are getting a little bit tired. And the reason the kidneys get tired in all of us as we get older, is in Chinese medicine, the energy that goes into your kidneys that pretty much has to last you most your life happens at the time of conception. Okay, it's not an organ that kind of, you know, can boost itself back up again, like the liver or whatever. So this animal is low on kidney energy is a little bit cool. sitting in the sun, kidneys getting a little bit tired. And what happens is the kidneys keep the body cold. They regulate the temperature. But when the kidneys get a bit tired, the temperature can go up. Okay, and it can flip into an animal being too hot. So you might think Oh, that's a fire element type or are they wood? Well, actually, they're both. And everything is interconnected in this system. So you could very easily have an animal tip over into getting too hot because the yang energy has gotten too strong. Because the kidney energy, the yin energy is not strong enough. So it's about looking to see do we really help cool down he heat, the Yang, the that's come up maybe to the liver, or the fire element type? Or do we actually boost the kidneys and the kidneys will actually put out the fire. So that's where you have to really look at it on a case by case basis.
Wow. Well, you have set the groundwork for what we're going to be talking about today. And I think that this is a great place for us to stop and take a quick commercial break. So hold tight, everybody, we will be right back.
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And we are having an amazing discussion with Lisa Tully about how our dogs can actually self medicate. And we got the groundwork of the five elements in Chinese medicine. So thank you for that great explanation, Lisa. So we're going to talk about how they can actually self select, depending on what is going on in their body. So you already mentioned that they self medicate with herbs, maybe with essential oils. Probably medicinal mushrooms would also fit into that category of course, food. So why don't you tell us? How do they heal themselves? What is the process?
HOW DO DOGS HEAL THEMSELVES?
So when they have shown me that which meridians in their body from the Chinese medicine that are most out of balance and what their priority is, then I work with the animal and this is all done through photos. So I even have clients in America, then the animal shows tells me what botanicals it is they want to use to bring themselves back into balance. So everything is animal choice the whole way through that I work. And when they self select, they'll choose say for example, they might choose an essential oil like Yarrow, okay, so they have really bad arthritis go back to that senior dog that's a little bit achy, the water element is out of balance. And because the kidneys rule the bones, they might choose Yarrow, because Yarrow is an amazing oil that helps ease aches and pains. So basically, what you would do is I like to use essential oils with full awareness of what other drugs they are on. And I always dilute down the essential oils as well. And I dilute them down according to the dilution the animal wants. So you then go to offer the dog the Yarrow, essential oil. And what happens is they'll start to sniff the oil. And if it's the wrong oil, they will not sniff it at all, they'll immediately turn their head away. Okay, but if they do like the oil, they'll have a sniff, it can be lightning fast, they have a sniff and then look away and lick their lips. And this is a sign first of all, the fact that they've sniffed it as a yes, the fact that they've licked her lips, and then they might go back and have another sniff and keep doing that. And eventually they start to yawn. And what's happening is the essential oil is going up to the olfactory system, which is basically up to the nose into the limbic part of the brain, which holds the memories, the emotions, it's the oldest part of the brain and then it spreads down into the nervous system. It goes across the skin barrier goes into the blood, and then spreads out into all the organs and will target the organ or the part of the body that needs that essential oil. And this happens in seconds from one sniff. So it looks like not much is going on. But the animals are so aware, they're lightyears ahead of us. And if you put down three different oils, they will just go for the one they want, they won't go to sniff all of them. And but to speed up the process, you're actually able to tune in with the animal much earlier. And then the oils that I send people are very, very specific oils, I send three, but I have hundreds, you know, I could show up and offer hundreds that would take forever. So then they just let the oil work. And they go into a deep trance, a healing trance with the oils at the start, where they're really going in very, very deeply. And it affects them on all levels, mental, emotional, physical and spiritual levels. And what happens eventually, they'll go off that Yarrow. They won't want to work with it anymore. Because they know the oil has done its job. And then you do another assessment and you send them new oils. It's unbelievable, if I send out three oils to a dog, they might choose to work with two oils for the first week, and then switch to the third oil in the second week because they know what order they need to work to the oils in. And they know how long they need them for. And they know how much they need them. And they do that with essential oils, herbs, flower essences, homeopathy, food, pharmaceutical, I've seen them deal with all those things.
And do you think dogs have the advantage of the intense, amazing sense of smell, to be able to talk to the brain immediately when they are smelling the different options to them.
And I don't think it makes a difference what species is doing it, I've seen them all do it equally as well. And although zoopharmacognosy is based on the idea of smelling, when I started to really observe the animals in my practice, I started to notice that they were more than in the same level self selecting homeopathy and self selecting flower essences, which in itself are termed as vibrational medicine, quantum medicine, even energy medicine, and there's no smell. But if you put out four bottles of flower essences, they'll go for the one of them. Or what I do is if you have a sick dog, who has a few different things going on, I'll put out homeopathy different remedies indifferent sources of water. And the animal will come up and have a lick of one source or go away, come back half an hour later to have a look at the other one, hover over the one next to it, and then go back to the other one and have another lick. it is unbelievable.
Okay, so what does it look like? Let's say I hire you to look at my dog. And you said that you do an assessment, you would ask me a lot of questions about their behavior and their lifestyle. I would send pictures, then how do you tap into what is going on with them? Is it a form of animal communication? Or is it very science based? What do you actually do to to know what's going on with them?
WHAT IS THE PROCESS?
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I have I have this animal communication skills as well. And so what I do is I bring together everything. First of all, I go into the left brain, and I assess the form I've asked you to fill out and I assess that with the Chinese medicine side of things. And I look and I try and identify what pathology is going on. Because there could be different causes behind the same condition in Chinese medicine. So I'm I'm whittling it down and I'm figuring that out, okay, where's that pathology going? And then I actually communicate with the animal and I also communicate with the, the guides of the animal, I bring that in as well. It's what I do. And I say, Well, what do you what's your priority? What's going on for you? And this isn't about communication in the sense of having, like, what's your favorite toy? Or like, kind of it's no, it's really deep, profound stuff. And often the animal will say to me, you know, I have this condition, but actually, my guardian needs this, this, this and this, okay, because they often mirror what's going on with their human. So I bring all these things together. And then what I do is it takes me about two hours to do a setup session because I'm really getting to the bottom of it. And so the animal communication then comes in on that side. And then what I do is I have what I call It's a meridian chart. So it's all the meridians in the body according to Chinese medicine, the small intestine, the heart, the kidney everything. And then I'll actually douse, okay, and the animal will show me which of their meridians are out of balance, and which is their priority. And then I formulate that together with the research I did in the Chinese medical side. And then I prescribe them a very specific diet if needed to and the animal then through the dousing, self selects, what botanicals flower essences, herbs, all that jazz, so and supplements, everything. So it takes the guesswork out of buying 10 different supplements for you know, that arthritic dog, like well, actually, no, they just need this particular one. Okay, they need a bit of Devil's Claw or whatever. So it saves time, money, and the beautiful resources of the Earth. And the animal is fully in charge. And what happens then is I ask the animal, do you want to self select any botanicals for your person? Okay, so if there is that mirroring going on. So what they'll do then is they might make up a mix of essences, or a mix of essential oil, flower essences, or a mix of essential oils for their person. And then they always tell a picture, or they paint an emotional picture. And I've to this day, I've never ever ever had any animal Guardian say to me, Oh, I'm not going through that right now. My dog selected the wrong mix for me.
So we should take our dogs to Las Vegas then is what you're saying to Las Vegas? Yes. Because they could pick the numbers, right? Yeah.
Yeah. So that yeah, that's it in a nutshell, then. And I post the botanicals wherever they go around the world. And then I teach to people on a video call, how to offer them.
Oh, my gosh, this is so fascinating. Well, I know on this show, you know, we all geek out about, you know, science like this with how to heal our dogs. But examples are the best. So I know that when you and I spoke before you talked about Bailey and his chronic ear infection. Can you tell the listeners about what happened with Bailey?
CASES
Yeah, so Bailey is an interesting case. And Bailey had been to two holistic vets before me and the the Bailey's guardian is also a homeopath in training. So the and the regular vet, everything had failed, this dog was having really bad ear problems, where the ear would get so inflamed, and it would actually get ulcerated, and it would have lots of wax going on in the ear as well. So this had been going on for a very long time, and the dog was shaking their head scratching. And then of course, the dog's Guardian was just driven demented. And, you know, really, really worried. So what I did was, I said to the Guardian, look, you've tried everything I said, but the one thing you haven't tried is asking Bailey, what Bailey needs. And this this particular story is I bring in the emotional side of it as well. So with ear problems, this would be the animal communication side of me, I have the right brain and where the ear problems represent not liking what you hear in life, okay, and then infections and ulcerations or that kind of stuff is anger. Okay, so I said to the person I said, Is there anything going on at home and there was okay, let's leave it there. There was there was not peace in the home environment, okay, there was words being said so, so that made sense. But then to go into the science of it and to go down into the left brain side of it. When an animal has these kind of ulcerations and this heat and this rawness coming up in the ear, for Bally's in case it was actually false heat rising up in the body that was coming from an imbalanced liver. So I had to support the liver. But you know, the ears themselves are actually ruled by the kidneys and in Chinese medicine but the liver can still have its input. So I was keeping an eye on the kidneys as well but I was I work with the animal as they present each follow up session. Okay, because they're showing me what the priority is. Okay, I could treat treat the liver I could treat the kidneys. I could treat the spleen, pancreas which because she was having gunk in the air. And there could have been also an involvement with the spleen, pancreas, but really it was the liver and the kidneys. So I had to rebalance the liver. I looked at the diet. Okay, I took out the hot meats. She was on a bit of lamb I took lamb out of the diet. I took out duck okay, because duck was too cold. I wanted to give her neutral meats like chicken, turkey, rabbit, you know all this kind of beef, port, these meats that are easy to digest. And I gave her guardian some flower essences to help her emotionally because what was going on externally around Bailey. And then Bailey then self selected some essential oils as well. And I've been working with Bailey now for about four months in and going from extreme chronic ear problems, she now just has the odd flare up. So we're still working, you know, it's just it takes time, that kind of a condition takes time, because it's it's internal imbalances going on. But I believe with Bailey now, we're actually at the point where her organs are so much more imbalance that we really, really have to watch now the emotional side, and what her guardian is doing because if her guardian starts to panic, or starts to get angry or agitated, Bailey's so close to her that her ear can flare. Okay, so when when you get to that point, I asked the Guardians like, take, keep a diary. Okay, so every time the ear flares, what's going on in your life, you know, and then it just becomes a point of self reflection. Because animals and especially dogs are so unconditional, that they'll constantly mirror back stuff to their people until they get it and they'll mirror it to a point that the animal will actually die from a condition I think, until the person learns the lesson. And if they don't, the next dog to come in and have the same condition.
They are here to teach us. we have to listen. Well, we are just about out of time, Lisa, but I want you to give another example. I know you have Bella, Toby, Max, or maybe a newer one. Give us one more quick example of the before and the after.
Toby is my neighbor's dog and during the winter time, he was on a walk and he got attacked by a much larger dog. And the dog put his his dog Toby just a little terrier. So he was literally picked up from his hind end and kind of shook right and he ended up being in the vet practice and you had to have surgery, extensive surgery and he had to have drains put in to you know, for a few days so I was treating him with botanicals and he was self selecting. And what happened then was he went back to the vet’s, got the drains taken out and we then got snowed in. Okay, we're up here in the Wicklow Mountains and we don't have jeeps with fancy you know Ireland we're not as organized so so we found ourselves snowed in and I noticed that where the drains had been taken out that Toby’s sides had started to build and swell out again at points and I just went uh oh, now this is a very dangerous place to be because animal bites are so toxic that actually what can happen it looks like things are okay on the surface, but underneath the skin layer is actually rotting away and they can die from sepsis very quickly. So I immediately worked with Toby and he self selected helped me self selected the ingredients to make up his own clay mix. Okay, his own essential oils with green clay in it, and with flower waters as well. And I packed that clay around the entrances of where the bite wounds were and where the drains were and I kind of reopened the skin. And what the clay does is it acts as an actual drain and it pulled all the puss out. So as the clay dried around the entrances, it started to get wet during the day as the body acts like the clay extracted out the infection. And he selected a homeopathic remedy silica which pushes the infection out. So we were pulling and pushing at the same time. And until the snow cleared for about three days. I kept washing his wounds each day offering oils. By the time he went back to the vet. So that was just like these wounds are perfectly clean. Tell me about this green clay.
There you go.
Yeah, so even in emergency Yeah, in an emergency like that. They'll show you the way. stay calm. Listen to the animal.
OFFER
Well, I think we've piqued a lot of interest here, Lisa and I know after this call, I'm going to talk to you about doing a consult for myself and our new dog Dutton. But for our listeners, I know that you have an offer. And this is so exciting. Lisa is going to offer you guys 10% off any consult with her. So the discount code is all uppercase. The word PODCAST. And Lisa how can people Not only find out more about you, but book a consult, where do they go?
My website is https://animalhealing.ie. So ie is at the end of our websites here in Ireland. And you can find me there, super easy to remember and all the information’s there all the different types of readings I have. But if people want to you can also book in a discovery call with me through my website also.
Okay, and I'm going to have all of these links to the website and all of her social media will be in the show notes for you guys. So we are going to sign off now Lisa, is there anything that you would like to leave us with today?
Your Social Media URLs or Tags
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/animalhealinglisatully/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/animalhealinglisatully
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/animalhealinglisatully/
I just wanted to say that if people are ever worried about their animal family out there is like, try your best to stay calm, and no matter what the situation is. And talk to your animal like you would talk to another person, and they understand every word you say.
Thank you, Lisa. This has been enlightening. And I am so excited to work with you. So thank you so much for being here today.
Pleasure, thank you so much for having me and to everybody who's listening.
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Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time.
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Wag Out Loud
Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers!
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.
Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it.
This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council?
THE START OF THE NASC
Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC.
Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do?
WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL?
It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow.
Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation.
And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again?
CHANGE IN FORMULATION
Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace.
And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies?
STUDIES AND TRIALS
Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it.
That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US?
ONLY US COMPANIES?
Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US.
got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back.
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And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit?
TRUST, BUT VERIFY
Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background?
You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency.
I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there?
MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT
We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day.
Good for you.
So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do.
Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC?
So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member.
And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you?
HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS
most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake.
Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business.
Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing.
We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right?
Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that?
WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION?
Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional.
Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally.
Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement?
HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that?
Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today?
Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc
Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes.
OFFER:
And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division.
So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Thank you very much. It's an honor.
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Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time.
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