Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers!
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.
Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it.
This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council?
THE START OF THE NASC
Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC.
Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do?
WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL?
It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow.
Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation.
And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again?
CHANGE IN FORMULATION
Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace.
And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies?
STUDIES AND TRIALS
Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it.
That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US?
ONLY US COMPANIES?
Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US.
got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back.
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And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit?
TRUST, BUT VERIFY
Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background?
You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency.
I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there?
MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT
We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day.
Good for you.
So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do.
Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC?
So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member.
And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you?
HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS
most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake.
Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business.
Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing.
We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right?
Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that?
WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION?
Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional.
Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally.
Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement?
HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that?
Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today?
Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc
Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes.
OFFER:
And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division.
So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Thank you very much. It's an honor.
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Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers!
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.
Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it.
This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council?
THE START OF THE NASC
Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC.
Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do?
WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL?
It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow.
Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation.
And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again?
CHANGE IN FORMULATION
Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace.
And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies?
STUDIES AND TRIALS
Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it.
That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US?
ONLY US COMPANIES?
Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US.
got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back.
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And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit?
TRUST, BUT VERIFY
Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background?
You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency.
I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there?
MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT
We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day.
Good for you.
So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do.
Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC?
So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member.
And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you?
HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS
most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake.
Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business.
Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing.
We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right?
Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that?
WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION?
Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional.
Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally.
Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement?
HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that?
Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today?
Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc
Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes.
OFFER:
And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division.
So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Thank you very much. It's an honor.
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Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time.
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Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #174 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and I've tried, that I know like and trust. Products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog.
Here's something I found interesting, the presence of a leash, the sex of a dog's owner and the sex of the dog itself all play a part in the aggressiveness of a dog when they're being walked. So dogs being walked by men are four times more likely to attack and bite another dog. Why is this? Well, it's because many dogs not only react to the behavior and posture of other dogs around them, but also to their people.
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Nathan Dewsbury is a seasoned expert in the animal health and wellness industry, with a track record of launching successful product-focused companies. His unique blend of scientific and business development skills has been instrumental in developing, manufacturing, and commercializing innovative nutritional supplements and testing programs. His extensive experience includes participation in multi-national health testing programs and guiding product development from R&D stages to commercial launch, giving him a comprehensive understanding of the entire process. Nathan received his graduate degrees in science and business from Texas A&M University and has numerous scientific publications to his name.
Welcome dog lovers to yet a another informative Wag Out lLoud pawdcast episode. I am so excited to chat with Nathan Dewsbury and we are going to talk about applying science correctly for dogs. So Nate, thank you so much for being here today.
Oh happy to be here, Krista. So thank you.
Well, before we get started, if you could please introduce yourself and tell us when this passion for canine health started for you.
Oh, no worries. So I am one of the co-owners and founders of rogue pet science. And so we've been for me, I've been doing this for the better part of 12 years, but we've been publicly available for the better part of six years now. And, you know, I'm a scientist by trade, a lot of diverse background in production animals, solving health problems the world over. I'm also a business trained scientist as well. So I've ran labs, I've developed diagnostics to help develop early stage research for vaccine development, dog cancer development work with Texas A&M and lot more of the dog trainer I competed in protection sports, you know, I've kind of done it all. And this diverse background allows me to see not just health issues, but a lot of issues from a multiple points of view. So I'm very well rounded. So not very silonated in just one little area, though, I've been in multiple silos. And so early on during my early developmental time as a, as a trainer, training my dog competing with my dogs helping others with, you know, raw diet and all that conversions back in the in the late 1990s. That's really weird to say that. I was, you know, there were three books published on this topic. I mean, back when you had to read books. So, you know, I was doing this I was traveling with the dogs, living with them full time, you know, as we traveled multiple states, and really realized that, you know, there's so much more than we can do on the dry food side that it wasn't a solution. And even on the raw food side. It was you know, it was helping a lot of people we were getting a lot of abatement, but we weren't getting resolution on a lot of issues. They still reoccurred but they were definitely diminished. And then the inconvenience of raw for those if you've ever traveled with dogs, even when I was getting it for free, it was still inconvenient and the timing of it so that was kind of starting a seed in my mind. I was like there's gotta be a better way. At the time. I didn't know exactly what it was I was studying immune systems immune responses, development in like vaccine development research work in animals so didn't know exactly what all was going on until I got exposure globally into the gut health side of it and understanding those factors. So when you fast forward later in my career after grad school, I'm traveling still globally helping production animals, dairy, swine, poultry, still in the dog food side of things as well, and started realizing that it wasn't that, you know, it was this really defining moment, other than I'm constantly asked by, you know, a lot of my working dog guys that have kennels, with the dogs, you know, bird dog guys, hunting guys. And production sport guys, they're like, you know, when are you going solve these problems, Nate when you can solve these problems, so they knew what I did and what I was what I really enjoyed working dogs. And so it wasn't that there was a defining moment, Krista, it was more like, at some point, I felt an obligation. And that obligation was that I had knowledge, I had the experience, I know what needed to be done. So I'm obligated to do this for other pet owners around the world, which has been our mission. And thankfully, we're around the world, literally, with our products, helping pet animals everywhere. So that's the short of it, I would say there was no defining, oh, I tried everything in the world. I solved this, and so I created something, it's like, I had to create what I did, because no one was doing it because I did look around. And it wasn't that I didn't try, I did look around, I did try. And it just none of it made sense from a fundamental scientific standpoint, from a nutritional standpoint, because you got to remember, both my co owner, Blake Jackson, and I, we've been longtime friends for a very long time. And we, we started training dogs together, we were working out together, we competed in our respective sports personally, on our own. This is not like high school or college, it's beyond that, that we were competing ourselves. So we were constantly and still to this day students of nutrition, gut health, you know, meta genomic, you know, these nutrigenomics, you know, all this information is still ongoing. But we were applying this to dogs. And of course, we knew this about ourselves. And it was not a lot of rollover from the human world circulating down to the pet world. Only if you were involved in production animals, which are 20 years ahead of the pet space. That's how far they are in of course knowledge and what works, what doesn't work and why they're doing things. So I was able to apply all that exposure and private research that was seen and know what works and what didn't work and was able to develop that over six years into developing the first product, which was our, our Origins 5 in 1 product not to plug that product. Now that that was our plug that's our flagship product, and it's changed. It's helped a lot of people around the world.
That is awesome. Well, Nate, you're going to chat with us about the science that is available for our dogs to realize optimal health and nutrition. But with so many different food choices and supplements on the market, how do we know? What is really going to help our dogs to thrive when it comes to the science that's available to us today? Yeah, big question. Right?
How to Navigate the Dog Food & Supplement Market
Yeah, it's huge question. And I think it causes a lot of stress. And in grief for for pet owners, whether they're experienced or not, you know, your average, you know, say, pet owner, and then also your training or your working dog level, guys, it causes them some stress and grief. Am I doing enough? Is this working? I don't know. I hope so. So it's a lot of emotional factors in there, that aren't exactly rooted in, in knowledge, or, as far as the science goes, being able to understand any science to understand you know, how to make better decisions. And that's not that's not on the owner, not entirely for sure. There's a lot of confusion out there, because we've always had this, saying that from the very beginning, you know, we're we're not a marketing company that happens to have a pet product line. We're a pet science company that develops functional nutritional tools, that solves problems, that we happen to do marketing, to sell the product to get in the hands on that. So that has been our biggest differentiation point, by anybody out there, as far as any quasi associated products to us, or the brands related to us in our space. So that leads into like, that we need better products, not more products. And unfortunately, you know, I mean, unfortunately, but fortunately, you know, we're, we're in the United States. So, we have that opportunity, anybody can create a product, you know, we say the market has potential for any good product. Well a good product is, is situational. And the market will always tell you what's a winner, but not always the best product ultimately be a winner at the end of the day, but we've been fortunate enough that we do have the best products. So we say we need better products, not more products, better products, meaning that not only the background information or the background science of why maybe individual components work, right there's a lot of focus, you know, narrow focus on, you know, enzymes, probiotics, the nutritional Things like raw proteins, as well as mega fatty acids happening, the science on those in different animal models, human models, you know, they work, but it's when you put them into a complex system, like the GI tract that you the GI tract environment, that that's where, what you started with on the foundations of the scientific components of it, that's when they start falling apart, right, that's why it took six years to develop our first product was because once you start putting things together, and then you put it into a incredibly complex and complicated environment, like the GI tract, then all bets are off. Because unless you've studied that product in that animal species, and measure, and then are able to measure the outcomes, positive or negative, or how what's changing, why it's changing, you know, understanding these things, then you'll never really understand that there's no observable change, right? Or easy to understand outcome, or that's even measurable or attainable tests that can be measured by your veterinarian, or some at home type testing. So that's where a lot of the, you know, the pet owners are being and consumers are being trained, oh, where's the science? Where's this study? Where's this digestibility study? You know, they say that, but then they vote with their money with the products they buy. And it is contradictory in that, in that in that same point, as well. So you know, it's not, we try to do the best we can educate and train because if we can read the body of knowledge, then we can all become better decision makers in how we treat our, our pets, and what we give them to give the best outcome to get the best quality of life outcome at the end. That's, you know, that's, that's the important part.
Well, if we feed a species appropriate diet, and you and I both agree that that would be a raw and or fresh food diet. Isn't that enough? Or do we all need to supplement?
Why Do Our Dogs Need Supplementation?
Yeah, so, you know, that's one of the most highly debated things, right? It's about nutrition, right? It's like, oh, it's like, you know, nutrition. Everybody's got an opinion, literally, everybody's got an opinion. And so yeah, we, you know, I'm a big proponent of raw and fresh or minimally processed as minimally processed as possible. But you’re not, you know a bad owner, if you can't do that, right. Because it's the world we live in, right? It's affordable convenience is the biggest driver, right? Even my I find myself, you know, inconvenience conundrums about what to do when I'm gone. How does my wife feed the two dogs, you know, type of deal. So we have that, right. So that's the bigger component, right? The the nutrition is the foundation, or it's one of the biggest components that goes into the animal alright, it's the food. But that's where we start getting into this realm of passive nutrition versus active nutrition. Right? So passive is, you know, adding protein, you know, that's the biggest market product category out there was like protein toppers, right, you know, you get all this new pork and beef and, you know, kangaroo I mean, who knows what's gonna come out? Armadillo, insects, which I'm definitely not a fan of, you know, you put these toppers on, right? Well, that's nutrition. Right canned food, raw, you know, those are nutrition components are passive, meaning that they're not actively making too many changes. And, you know, this specifically, is when you're dealing with health issues. If that was the case, then feeding these other diets, you know, if you're on a raw diet, you know, you're still your dogs still get sick, they still have allergy, like issues that flare up, maybe seasonally, I mean, there's so many other things associated reproduction issues, there's, there's other things that we tend to associate with like, Oh, they're not getting enough nutrition, it's like, well, this isn't we're active nutrition comes in. So what we focus on too, is that the active nutrition side of making changes to the GI tract to boost its ability to do its job allows us to also improve the immune response later on inflammation responses, as well as the nutritional component, because you do need the quality nutrition to set the pH range of the GI tract, before you can do anything to get that back in balance, that'll have a positive change. And then you got to have the other if you will, the pillars of gut health, that if you're going to make any changes, you need to address these other pillars. So you're need to address the pH obviously, you need to address the the surface layer. So the mucosal barrier, the lining the support of the lining the microbes that are there and you get to worry about those guys that are there feeding those good guys and not perpetuating bad guys because you perpetuate that system and you know, how is it bagged and tagged as nutrients, you know, all these little things factor in so if you're not addressing all of those, it doesn't matter what you're feeding. If the bad the gut environment is not favorable to the animals in favor of dysbiosis or a negative type of you know, if you will, in this case, a tilt towards the negative side. You have a lot of inefficiencies that are happening, and you know, stress in the world stress on, you know, on the living situation and stress on the immune system from the environment. So like viruses and pathogens, you know, there's so many factors that come in, that play a role, that even just focusing on the best diet is not going to be enough. And that's not even factoring in the quality of these raw diets. And these were all components, right? Because those, the quality of those components in those diets matter about what that animal, that animal was being fed. So, you know, there's a depletion in our environment, obviously. So it's like, are we getting enough, you know, of the vitamins and minerals and the key cofactors, that's going to support you know, hormone production, and as well as the macro side of it, because everybody focuses on, right, you know, macros, it's the sexy thing, right? protein, protein, and it is important in fact, but then it's like, well, what about the phyto nutrition? What about the macro nutrition, have you know, magnesium and it's there have been selenium and its proponents later on it that it's cofactors in to get like the glutathione, but they're involved in many metabolic not just food metabolism, but cellular metabolic mechanisms throughout the body.
Nate, I’m going to stop you right there. So we're gonna take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Hold tight, everybody.
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Welcome back, everybody, we are chatting with Nate Dewsbury. And he's blowing my mind. We just talked about active nutrition. And in the market today, we are pretty much just focusing on passive nutrition. So Nate, are you saying that we, with what we're feeding our dogs, both food and supplementation, that we are just putting a bandaid and trying to fix a problem or symptom that we're seeing that we're not addressing the entire body itself and what it needs?
We Aren’t Addressing the Issues
Yes, that's the easy way to say that we are putting band aids on it or chasing our tail, pun intended on this one, where you have some knowledge and some buzzwords that have been perpetuated out there very nicely. But it's either not used correctly, it's not applied correctly, or it's the wrong format to be applied the way they thought it was gonna be. But it's just not going to have the function. And that's where you get a lot of these, you know, wives tales and the misuse and applications of ingredients or supplements or products, that just doesn't work definitely like, oh, I, you know, I've tried all that nothing worked or, you know, I've dealt with cases where they've done 5000, 3000 plus dollars, that's thrown everything but the kitchen sink at an issue, I mean, going as far as buying energizes crystal waters, the wave over at all to help with allergies. And they will genuinely try adding all these probiotics and the standalone products, and they're in combinations, and it wasn't working as well not wonder so you know, obviously quality issue and the format issue, but then it's like, also how you put this together to work correctly. And that's why we were able to do it with a single product in our, in our case, to make these changes very quickly, and get resolution on the problem. And then they have what's you know, to them a normal dog again, you know, a healthy, active normal dog and they don't have to do anything special to just feeding it well and using you know, in this case Origins. So yeah, putting a bandaid on it is literally what's going on or you put enough band aids and you still not getting resolution, you're still having, you know, slight issues or it flares up very quickly with the you know, the wind blows wrong and it's going to change on you a little bit or you change food or something and it's just a whole nother the same situation all over again. And that's where the science the shelf concept that we've coined comes into play because that's ultimately what our mission is always doing, we're not, we're not making products just to make products. Because then we can easily have, you know, 36 different products easily. If I can do that, within four weeks, it's not even hard to do. But that's just not what we do. So science to shelf is basically means developing products, the way science says works. And so if you do that, and you're paying attention, and applying this correctly for the species, it doesn't look the way you think it looks. And in our case, we've actually had to develop the individual ingredients, sometimes to get the format that we need to put it with something else to give us that value add proposition to give that multiplex to health, as you will approach to help addressing why we develop a product. Yeah, so. So case in point, because it's hard to, you know, not be product specific for us, because, you know, I saw all these issues. So like, you know, why we created our Pumpkin Pro, we had to develop our fermented turmeric and ginger product, to give us this natural and powerful anti inflammatory that we know works culturally, from an ingredient standpoint, many cultures that use it, and why do they use it, but then when you look at the science is whether it's culture, life studies, dog studies, human studies using this, when you actually read them or call them up and talk to all the PI's that are running the study, you can find a lot of other extra information. But you also find out the methods that they used. And even though they even though they they write it out in their studies, they tell you what they how they use and what they what they did to manipulate it, but that's not, that's where things fall off, right? It's like, oh, well, turmeric is good. And you add black pepper, and you get this, you know, three fold increase in absorption uptake. And it's like, whoa, hold on there. But turmeric is one of those misused by owners and industry type of marketing buzzwords that are misused all the time, I would never use regular turmeric off the shelf, either. So we had to create a fermented version, to make it biologically available to get those bioflavonoids, those curcuminoids these other components that are beneficial in there. the essential oils that are in these roots, that that help as that CO transporter, just like pepper pepper, in this case, is the central pepper. Well, Mother Nature's printing smart. And they have their own essential oils to help with carriers that are studied that show the same increase in uptake. So you had to create this amazing product. And then I needed that the couple with, you know, the most amazing pumpkin product to get that two step approach to managing, you know, GI distress, stomach upset issues naturally, and for it to actually work very quickly, not just throw pumpkin fiber at at a situation that's not actually that's only addressing the human’s issue that's not addressing the dog's issue. So we created that two step approach to manage the issue in the animal, in the dog, in this case, the GI tract, and then inflammation that causes the villi to shrink up. And then we also solve the owner’s issue with the best human grade pumpkin you can ever get. So we addressed that. So that's what we developed, and stuff like that. And other things that I've been testing for like two years now.
So what happened, let's go back to wolves. They self selected what they needed to eat nutrition wise. Now we have our modern domestic dog. And I feel like we need to supplement so much more, is it because of the environment that they're living in? The stressors? You pointed out that, you know, there's a lot less nutritional value even in the food that we grow, you know, in the soil that is depleted? Why is it so different now with a dog that we have to address all of these other issues with food and supplementation?
Why Today Do We Need to Supplement?
Great, great question actually. So you also have to take into consideration that the the domesticated dog, as we know, it co evolved with humans, you know, obviously along the waterways, so their micro biomes changed in parallel to humans, as well because we were sharing the same environment like face to face sharing the environment, and they co evolved with the humans and so they they did diverge from the feral side of their their genealogy. And when you do that, well we have some changes and so any also if you think about, you know very easily think about the past even as early as the 50s but way later as well because they coevolved and they were eating other products we were also eating different products. You know, meat scraps, not us but we were eating meat and they were getting a lot of raw components as You know, in this case, it just overflow product or, or byproduct waste product from the human side. And so they were getting, you know, raw bones, they were getting organ cut offs, and, you know, collagen cut offs and organs as well. And then even some of the intestinal components as well. So they were, at some point, they were getting a lot of what their ancestral relatives were getting as well. And then the modern world is a tough world as we know it today. And, you know, we have many factors, even the city water is a factor. The air quality is a factor, obviously, and those are stressors. But the biggest conversion, you know, the biggest change, I think happened was the convenience factor, which was based on the war, there's plenty of people have written about the introduction started the, the processed kibble, the dry food, the extrusion process, when that started, and it was convenience. And for cost effectiveness, you know, we were in the middle of economic turmoil with wars and stuff. So it was that but it never the convenience was so high that it never went away. Well, diverge away from that long enough. And you're going to have some some some issues. So they the lack of diversity of the fresh quality ingredients, or minimally processed ingredients kind of took a left turn on us as dogs, though pet owners, and that allowed, you know, these, these holes to be created. And then things have only been perpetuated further. But I think over the last easily five years now, things have been moving closer to what you and I both know is more of like the whole prey type concept of being more or being revisited, talked about more and being focused on and you know, being able to include, you know, even fresh vegetables, and fruits and other organs when you can get them. That is a big help. And owners, I think are actually seeing that impact on their animals very easily with liver, you can see, you know, a lot of energy changes, obviously, because it's all the B vitamins in liver, you'll see energy changes and disposition changes. So the more we focus on that, and then also how do we help them process the dry food because remember, just because you've been through our food, you're not a bad owner. It's not about that. So there's other tips and tricks we've obviously bring about and talk about and educate on to help them process help them help their dogs to process that, that dry food, like the hot water trick, and things like that to to unlock the format, because it's, it's all about the format, right, the less processed you get, you get more inconvenience, but you get better nutrition, and then you get on the processed foods and get ultimate convenience, but it's a format problem. So, you know, you need other factors to help the dogs actually process that. And normally, they would have gotten these things through the prey animal like, you know, rodents and other small animals they would have that are designed to eat grasses and roots and vegetables and like that they would have you know, dogs and feral, you know, wolves and stuff that would get those ingredients fermented or processed, indirectly getting these vitamins and minerals, and plus the organs and everything else. So it's a trade off that we're just trying to balance out the equation. I think ultimately, what I'm trying to do is recreate that whole prey model just in a more convenient way and cost effective ways that allow owners to actually replicate what dogs really are missing, and make it convenient in this modern world to help them actually thrive.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, it's a lot.
No, I love it. I love geeking out and the science behind it. So Rogue Pet Science, what gap are you guys filling in the market?
What is Rogue Pet Science?
So it's really about making health focused products that actually work at the end of the day they have to work, you have to be able to test things to make sure that they work as well, which we've done. And so we are we are filling that in this multiplex format. So it's being able to address multiple deficiencies, whether it's on the gut health side or the nutritional side, that cumulate together to solve not just health issues, but performance issues, you need nutrition, you need gut health to get ultimate performance, whether that's just the best health possible for your for your pet dog, or the working ability of a detection dog, a police dog, or, you know, these competitive, you know, like flyball and agility and stuff like that as well. So that's, that's really what we're doing. And when we do that, we put the science into it. So that's really the big differentiators that we're one of the few products out there. There's not many, only a couple actually have real science into their products, the way they work in an animal proven that they do. And we've developed and co-developed tests to also show that value and I think that's ultimately where the future is going to be able to go is this personalized or individualized nutrition for your pet at different stages of life. That's that's ultimately where things gonna end up going. We’re already seeing it on the human side.
Right, so your products no matter what people feed their dog, they will help all of their bodily processes.
Absolutely.
Okay, awesome. Well, as we are wrapping up, Nate, I know that you have an offer for our listeners. And this is really exciting. Do you want to share that? Or do you want me to talk about it?
Go ahead and talk about it.
OFFER for 25% Off
Awesome. Well, the team at Rogue Pet Science along with Nate is offering 25% off for you guys to try their amazing science backed products. So the code is Wag25. And that would get you 25% off of your entire purchase. And can you briefly since we're almost out of time, Nate, just tell us what kind of products you do have for them to choose from.
Yeah, we have multiple food toppers, if you will, that category. So we have our Origins 5 in 1, which has all the prebiotics and probiotics, the post biotic the digestive enzymes, all the gut health side of it, plus the wild fish, which is all the organs and the end, concentrated Omega fatty acids all 42 of them, we have a natural weight gainer and weight maintainer we call Healthy Weight, which is all food based actually no no tricks, no sugars, it's just all whole food based with the gut health complexes in there. Not all of them, but most of them that actually help process those extra calories. Because it's all egg yolk, egg white, fermented barley and stuff like that, we have our Pumpkin Pro, which is you can use it as a fiber or an enrichment for diversity of the diet as well. Or if you're having you know, traveling and trying to manage stress, avoiding stress, stuff like that. And then we also have our concentrated fermented turmeric and ginger, which is a standalone mainly for senior animals, or injury prevention, if you need a powerful antioxidant, like you can use on a weekend for recovery type purposes, for the performance dog. And then we have a few other obviously, we got some Rogue gears and nice Rogue gear and bowls and tents. But we have some health tests that are tested and verified, yak sticks, which we're big fans of and adopted those way early on. And we have the best jerky treats you could ever think of which are all human grade. So most of our products are literally human grade ingredients that you can eat yourself. We're just packaged in for pet animals, for animals in general. So yeah, and then so the code is very generous, because at the end of the day, you have zero risk. There's no BS involved with us. We're here to earn trust. At the end of the day, if we can't earn that, then I don't want you buying our products. So don't you want to use it don't do what you want. zero risk return, there are no questions asked. But the end of the day. It's all about earning trust. And our products work, and we're willing to show it.
I love it. Well, thank you for that very generous offer. Nate, where can everyone find out more information about you and Rogue Pet Science?
Absolutely. The website, obviously, that you could go to for finding information about us the company the products. That's RoguePetScience. And it's the same on Instagram, which we do a lot of some slightly different content there. Even on Facebook, it is also @RoguePetScience, where we do a lot of Article posts and some very inside information industry inside information that we post about articles and stuff that we actually write and develop and further refine as new science comes to light. So you can find a lot of information there. We have a newsletter you can sign up for that gets you on a list that we were very, very light handed on the emails that we send out. So we won't gum up the works on your inbox as well. So that is those are the best ways. And then if you have any questions, the fastest way is either through Instagram messaging, or through Facebook Messenger. Somebody's always monitoring them even late at night like I am, and we're gonna get your answers no matter what.
Your Social Media URLs or Tags
Instagram: rogue pet science
Facebook: rogue pet science
LinkedIn: rogue pet science
Your website URL:
www.roguepetscience.com
Perfect. Well of course, all of this information with the links is going to be in the show notes. But of course with podcasting, this is audio. So that is RoguePetScience. And again, WAG25 gets you 25% off of your entire purchase. Nate, thank you so much for being here today. I think that we love geeking out about science and dogs here. So hopefully we've piqued some people's interests. And again, go check out RoguePetScience. Nate, thank you for all that you do.
Thank you for everything you do to help us get our voices and information out to everybody.
Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code WOL10 For 10% off.
Wag Out Loud
Hello This is Krista with Episode #189, the final episode of the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I just want to thank you for tuning in over the years and for wanting to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. I have learned so much from all of my expert guests over the last five years and I hope that you have too many of you know that for the past year I've been working alongside Dr. Judy Morgan, as the Education and Development Team Lead for her Naturally Healthy Pets team. And Dr. Judy is America's best known natural pet advocate, and holistic veterinarian for over 38 years, and I help produce her podcast and manage her events and also manage her speaking engagements. Dr. Judy's experience includes holistic veterinarian, acupuncturist, chiropractor, food therapist, author and speaker. So if you don't currently follow her, you should! Follow Dr. Judy Morgan's Naturally Healthy Pets and continue your journey to learning more about how to keep your dog healthy and happy, naturally. And in the meantime, my Wag Out Loud website will remain up. So you can always listen to any of the podcast episodes. Check out my most trusted brands, most of them with discount codes. And check out the great information on the resources page. Again, thanks everybody for listening to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I hope that you enjoy this final episode. Take care dog lovers!
Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode.
Well, hello dog lovers and welcome to yet another Wag Out Loud episode. And this is actually going to be the last and final episode, where we have a chance to learn something new when it comes to Canine health. And I'm so excited for today's guest. We have Bill Booko ut here. And he's going to be covering the topic of will your dog benefit from supplements and the critical questions to ask when selecting products. Bill, thank you so much for being with us today.
Krista, Thank you very much for the opportunity. I've been looking forward to this since we scheduled it. I’m sad that this is last podcast but I'm honored to be the final episode. So I really appreciate it.
This is so fitting. Bill, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself and share why did you start the NASC, the National Animal Supplement Council?
THE START OF THE NASC
Kind of an interesting story. I'll make it brief. I'm a business executive. So I was COO for a $500 million dollar medical device and drug company but I was raised in Wyoming and I had dogs my whole life. So I've been an animal lover. I had two black labs, Lancelot and Cinder and they both had health issues. Cinder had hip dysplasia. Lancelot had cancer. So in the mid 1990s, I had them both successfully treated, I made a career change. I got out of human medicine and I took a slot as CEO for the third largest specialty animal referral center in the US. When cancer came back the second time around on my own dog, Lancelot. He was an 11 and a half year old Labrador Retriever. And he was given a very poor prognosis. So I'm connected with all these high powered board certified oncologists. And you know, he's given three months with chemotherapy. And I'm just not going to do that on an 11 and a half year old dog, so I'm looking for help. So I find a veterinarian, formulated a product and changed his diet completely. And he lived two and a half years good quality of life, which wasn't long enough. But out of that experience, I decided, well, I'm going to start my own company selling supplements for animals. Well, I didn't realize that the regulatory environment for animal supplements was different than it is for human dietary supplements. I made a bad assumption. And in 2001, the industry was threatened with products being removed from the marketplace. So we started NASC with 18 companies with the intention of engaging the regulatory officials, meaning the Food and Drug Administration, Center for Veterinary medicine as well as state regulators to try to define, develop and implement a responsible path forward that would allow these beneficial products to remain on the market, provided companies act responsibly. So that's the foundation and the driving force behind founding NASC.
Well, and we appreciate that. Because, you know, I have to let my listeners know, I don't know it all. I'm just a dog, mom. And I thought that the supplement industry, especially for animals is unregulated. And the wild wild west? And I am so glad to know that there is an organization looking out for our pets. And I was just astounded, yet happy to hear what your members of the NASC have to go through to get that accreditation. So why don't we start there with how did you come up with having supplement companies get the seal of approval? What do they have to do?
WHAT DOES NASC MEMBERSHIP ENTAIL?
It's really a two step process. First, you just can't pay your money and join NASC, you have to qualify for membership. So whether you go through the audit process or not, there's a code of conduct document that every single company and then we have 300 members now, 300 brands, every single company that joins NASC, has to have a direct interview, either with myself or Ryan Cargo, our Chief Operating Officer, to be sure that the company is willing to commit to our quality standards. they sign a written document, and they have to qualify for membership. To use the NASC seal, that's about a 120 day process. a lot of companies want to join NASC and use the seal right away. Well, if we just handed out the seal, the quality seal when companies you know join and you write us a check and it would have no meaning or value. So with the NASC audit program, companies have to pass a quality audit, similar to an FDA audit, that they demonstrate their labels are in compliance, their claims are in compliance with our guidelines. They have a written quality manual that ensures quality processes, whether they have products contract manufactured for them by someone else, or they they have those processes themselves. They enter products to our adverse event reporting database, which is the most advanced system of post market surveillance in the world, for these types of products, much more advanced than even the human dietary supplement industry. So those companies have to meet our requirements to be a member, but we verify those through an actual audit process. And once a company does that, then they can use the NASC seal, that’s good for two years. But again, you can't just join and use the seal. If there wasn't a pretty high hurdle to clear, then that seal would have no value. And, you know, a lot of people ask me why we've been successful at NASC. And, you know, I say, one word credibility, we walk our talk. And I don't mean to say that our members are perfect. Anybody can make a mistake. But, you know, we do have specific standards that we require members to follow.
Well, and the in depth ingredient search and report that is involved, that alone is worth its weight in gold.
Yeah, we've expanded our programs as this is our 22nd year. And we're the largest trade association in the world representing companies that sell products for dogs, cats and horses, you know, similar to human dietary supplements, but our programs have expanded where we now have quality, quality and qualification programs for raw materials, contract manufacturers, testing laboratories, because it seems intuitive, but people you know, kind of forget, one of the things they you know, you see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and it shouldn't be. So I always say Trust, but verify. And we'll talk more about that in this podcast, I'm sure. If you don't start with quality raw materials, combined and manufactured with quality, repeatable processes, you're not going to have quality products at the end of that production cycle. So we cover all the way from raw material supplier qualification through our preferred supplier program, contract manufacturing companies all the way through finished products. we do independent product testing also, we'll go out as an organization couple times a year, and we'll buy products from the marketplace. And we'll test to make sure that companies meet label claim. If they don't, then we require written corrective action and investigation, if they’re outside of allowable limits or analytical laboratory variation.
And what if a company changes their formulation in any way? Do they have to start over again?
CHANGE IN FORMULATION
Yeah, good question. Products are entered in our database. And every ingredient in the product is entered in and that product is finalized and locked, the company has to sign it off and lock the product. So that product in our database cannot be changed. Now, if a formulation does change, they can enter a new product, or we won’t modify that product because that would compromise the integrity and the traceability of the products that were manufactured previous to the formulation change. But that can be updated by like a red one SKU in our database. So every individual product and individual formulation can be tracked by lot number, and that really protects the company, you know, if they ever did have a problem, or an issue that was unforeseen? You know, we could recognize that act upon that quickly, you know, if needed, and again, in the interest of ensuring that we have quality products in the marketplace.
And do you guys put any emphasis on companies that have done clinical trials or studies?
STUDIES AND TRIALS
Certainly, clinical trials and studies are important. And we encourage people to contact a company look for research? A couple issues with research. So Krista, let me give you a direct short answer to your question. We don't evaluate the efficacy of products, right? There would be legal liability associated with that. And if we did, if we evaluated safety and efficacy, then we'd be the FDA. And that's what the Food and Drug Administration does. So we don't evaluate whether or not the product works, or does the company have clinical research? However, in commenting on clinical research, a lot of people especially veterinarians say, You know what, I'm not going to buy a product until I see research. There's a couple of issues with research, I think the right question is, why isn't there more research for natural products? Two answers to that, number one, natural substances cannot be protected via intellectual property or patents. So if a company introduces, you know, conducts research, and I'll give you an example, we just conducted as an organization, a safety study for CCD, three different types of CBD in dogs, the cost of that study was $475,000, for just safety. So there's no way to recoup the investment, because you can't patent protect the formulations in most cases. So some other company can go out, copy of formulation, sell it cheaper, and no way for the company to recoup the investment. That's answer number one, or part one of the answer. Part Two, the answer is, if you have a product that shows that the product would be beneficial for a chronic disease process, companies are limited on the claims that they can make if they don't go through the drug approval process with FDA. And that's a very expensive and lengthy process, meaning millions of dollars and years, at least five years to get through the new animal drug approval process. So that's why drug companies have formulations or substances that they can protect with patents, and recoup the very costly investment that it takes to go through the new animal drug approval process. So that's kind of a long winded answer to a short question, which is, how do we view research? And do we encourage research? The answer is yes, we encourage research. But there are limitations in this particular area, just because the cost to reach it.
That all makes sense. Thank you for breaking that down. Appreciate it. Well, before we go on our break, I guess I wanted to ask, since it's called the National Animal Supplement Council, are you only taking companies that are manufacturing here in the US?
ONLY US COMPANIES?
Yeah, the answer is the answer is no. When we started NASC, that's where we started because that's where the issue was burning. The hottest and brightest was products were being limited, in fact being removed from the marketplace in the United States. So we started as in the National Animal Supplement Council, but we really have evolved into you know, we're more of a global organization, we participated in the veterinary natural health products program and helped define the path forward in Canada. And we're recognized in in some other countries, countries internationally with the NASC seal and our quality program. So we've become more globally focused over time. But we started out focused in the US.
got it. Okay. Well, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, Bill is going to unpack his motto trust but verify, and how we can know that we're getting a good product when we are looking for products for our dogs. So everybody sit tight, and we'll be right back.
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And we are back and I'm having a fascinating conversation with Bill Bookout from the National Animal Supplement Council. And Bill you mentioned in the first half that your motto is trust but verify. Can you unpack that a little bit?
TRUST, BUT VERIFY
Yes, I think, again, as we talked about in, you know, before the break, people see a product on the shelf and quality is assumed and I don't think it should be. trust but verify. You know, people should not be afraid to pick up the phone and call the company and ask some questions. Ask how long has the company been in business? Ask who formulated the product? And what's their background?
You know, do they have expertise in these areas? Who can I call if I have a question? You know, are they credible? You know, Can I can I get help? There's a couple red flags that I always tell people to look for. And you can take these to the bank. Companies that make claims that sound too good to be true, probably are. And cheap products are cheap for a reason. So if you see two different products, and they look the same formulation wise and one of them cost significantly less than the other stop and ask yourself why. quality costs money. Now, why is that important? Because this is a consumable product. And there are no magic bullets out there. Right? So even if you have a supplement that you hope that your dog or cat will benefit from. It's not a magic bullet. Right. It's a component of a comprehensive health and wellness program. But the important point for supplements are, quality means consistency. And if your dog or cat is going to respond positively to that product. It needs to be produced consistently. So you have the same product this week, next week, next month, next year, so that you maximize the probability that you're going to get a positive response for the animal And that centers around quality and process control. So that's why trust but verify quality is always important. Now, we all lead busy lives, right? And I will also suggest that people, you know, access to information on the internet, we live in the information age, right? We get information from all kinds of different places. And it's easy to get right. So be careful what you read, be careful who you believe, trust but verify. And, you know, we hope that companies or consumers, pet owners will look for NASC audited member products, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that doesn't mean they're perfect, but it does mean somebody's been there and checked them out. Right. So I think you want to maximize the probability that your dog or cat who is really your extended family member is going to benefit from the products and you want to buy a quality product, because if they're going to respond, it really centers around quality and consistency.
I'm glad you mentioned that it all does make a lot of sense that cheaper does not mean better. And that we do have to ask questions and not be afraid to dig a little deeper into the companies and the ingredients and the sourcing and where do they manufacture? How do they manufacture? So I know when we originally met, which was a long time ago, you said that there was an instance when you had to cancel a member? Can you share what happened there?
MEMBERS NOT BEING COMPLIANT
We did. Yeah, without mentioning any names. We had a longtime audited member company, that we you know, we pick up products and we test for label claims. And we had a company come in at 78% of label claim for one of the ingredients in their product. Well, when that happens, that's you know, there's obviously an issue. So we require written investigation and corrective action so that the company can determine what made that happen. Well, we sent a note to the company and said, Hey, we bought this product, here's where we bought it from, here's the test results. We tested this particular laboratory, we're completely transparent in that. And we said you're 78% of label claim, you need to find out why this happened and respond to us on what your findings are and what you're going to do. What are you going to do so this doesn't happen again. And the company responded back to us and said, We're not going to do that. We think you're getting too deep in our business, and we're not going to respond to you. We canceled their membership that day.
Good for you.
So, I mean, if we don't walk our talk, then again, as I mentioned earlier, if you ask me, What's the one single word that best describes the success of NASC credibility, right? If we don't have credibility with the regulatory agencies, and ultimately with the consumers in the marketplace, retailers, consumers, then we don't have a good foundation to stand on. So quality is very important to us. That's what happened. And we're very serious about what we do.
Well, I appreciate that, that shows integrity and transparency. And I mean, you are regulating, which is what we need. And speaking of which, you should be very proud of 300 members. But when we look at the entire landscape of animal supplements, there are I can't even imagine hundreds of 1000s of brands, why aren't more wanting to be a part of the NASC?
So by consumer spending, we estimate that we represent about 80 to 85% of the industry. The industry, rightly or wrongly, is a fairly low barriers to entry industry. Meaning that, you know, Krista and Bill can decide they want to start an animal supplement company, and if we can get it up off the ground, then we can certainly do that. But we estimate that we represent about 80 and 85% of the industry by consumer spending or products that consumers purchase. So we represent the majority of the industry. But that's why I say Trust, but verify, you know, look at the company, see how long they've been in business, check out their background, don't hesitate to do a little due diligence before making the selection. Now, if you see a company with the NASC quality seal again, that means they're not only a member agree to abide by our guidelines in terms of the Code of Conduct, we bought it at them and we verified that. So we hope the consumer because we all lead busy lives, you know, would look for the NASC quality seal and and give that weight. Our ultimate goal is we want to NASC quality seal to be in the top three factors of why someone selects a product that they would use for their furry family member.
And do you ever seek out members? Or do they come to you?
HOW NASC FINDS MEMBERS
most of the time members come to us. At some of the major trade shows like Global Pet Expo or Super Zoo, there's a couple of major veterinary shows, you know, we attend those shows, we usually have a booth and, you know, I'll cruise around if I if I see a company, or what its really turned into Krista is more of a self policing industry. So when you have the majority of the industry, following requirements and quality standards, if somebody is outside of those boundaries, and you know, really, you know, making claims they shouldn't make, for example, they're out there purveying products, and they say they're going to cure everything from parvo to cancer. A lot of times people don't realize they're making a mistake. I didn't when I first got in the business. So I'll call companies up if they're brought to my attention, or if I see them somewhere. And I'll try to help them. we operate with with the philosophy here that a rising tide floats all boats. So, you know, sometimes companies just don't know that they're making a mistake. And I'll try to give them the information because it doesn't do the industry any good for us to sit back and let a company make a mistake.
Because bad news sells. And we all get painted with a broad brush wrongly a lot of times. But nevertheless, that's what happens. And so we do both, most of the times companies come to us, one of the buyers on the retail side. Now we've been around long enough and we have credibility, you know that the buyers will require companies to belong to NASC. Because again, they want to maximize, this is a consumable sale, they want to maximize the probability that a pet owner is going to return to their location, wherever that purchase location is, they're going to buy that product again, they're going to leverage that visit, they’ll buy other things because it increases trust with the retailer that recommends or offers a product for sale. And they'll tell their friends and create a new stream of business. So there's a lot of business benefits. And so we get a lot of a lot of companies through retail channels as well, because we you know, again, we help the retailers maximize, maximize their revenue which at the end of the day. You know, that's what that's what keeps them in business.
Well, I have to say, in the almost five years that I've been doing this show, you know, I've learned how to ask the questions and what to look for. But I think a lot of these companies, unfortunately, they're playing on our emotions, because we're talking about, as you mentioned, extended family. These dogs are part of our family, and cats. So when we're buying these supplements, and we don't see a difference, in whatever we're trying to address, I know that I've had supplement graveyards, I've spent so much money, it seems like I'm throwing stuff at the wall, there has to be something that works for my dog. So for the NASC seal for you guys to do the steps and go above and beyond what research and homework I could do on a brand or product. I think that just speaks so highly of what you're doing.
We try to make it easier, right? Because again, we all lead busy lives. So we try to make it easier. And again, I don't claim that all of our members are perfect. They're not. But we want people to have a higher degree of confidence that if they select an audited NASC member company’s product, that that company is a solid company and they're going to maximize the probability of success, which how does that translate? We really want our dogs and cats. We want the same things for our dogs and cats we want for ourselves. If you stop and think about that, we want to live a long, happy, healthy life to the maximum degree possible, right?
Well, here's the irony. This might be a total rabbit hole. I do believe if we feed our pets, a species appropriate diet. And I am one and everybody knows that for fresh and or raw feeding versus a highly processed food with synthetic vitamins and minerals. They can't be getting the nutrition that they need. So therefore you do need to supplement and that's where I just I don't understand why many of us don't want to give the proper nutrition to our animals and give them less supplementation. What are your thoughts on that?
WHY NOT BETTER NUTRITION FOR LESS SUPPLEMENTATION?
Very insightful and you're dead on I mean, you hit the nail on the head. If people think about it this way, this thing that we call health and wellness, whether it's for ourselves or our animals, it's a three dimensional sphere. A spherical object, three dimensional, good diet, exercise, home environment, fresh water, routine veterinary care, and checkups, just like routine, you know, you know, physicals and checkups every year. That's right. Supplements are a component of that. But you're right. A lot of people don't know, your gastrointestinal tract is the largest immune supporting organ in your body, person or animal. And quality food quality diet, strong and healthy immune system, those are really you know, so probiotics can can play a role in that. So probiotics are the good bacteria, you know, that fight off the bad bacteria in the GI tract that helps metabolize nutrients and maintain strong and healthy immune system. But probiotics are subject to. The two enemies of probiotics are heat and moisture. And so you don't see probiotics in pet food because they're heated to kill off salmonella in a kill step. So probiotics is one example of a supplement that can be very beneficial for long term health and wellness. Now, you might not see an immediate effect from probiotics, like you would on maybe a joint product if your dog's limping from old age or something like that. But you really hit a very key point, good nutrition, clean water, exercise, loving home environment. Supplements as a component are really, really important. So it's three dimensional.
Oh, thank you for clarifying that. That's, that's so powerful that we give them all around whole body wellness physically and mentally.
Well, Bill, we are running out of time. But before we go, I want to ask you two things. First of all, what is the difference between a health versus a nutritional supplement?
HEALTH VS NUTRITIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
Very good question. So a health supplement would be for a non nutritional benefit. ingredients that would not provide nutrients that are required in a complete and balanced diet. What are some examples? Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM, tumeric, curcumin, coenzyme Q 10. lutein, there's no scientifically substantiated daily nutritional requirements for those ingredients yet, products with some of those can be targeted for specific health benefits, right? Joint Health, eye health, cardiovascular health, liver and kidney health, gastrointestinal health, immune health, things like that. It could be when times of stress, right? older, older animals just like older people, you know, they don't get around as well so great products or B category. Those would be on the health supplement side. nutritional supplements would provide nutrients as a component of a complete and balanced diet, maybe probiotics, vitamins, minerals, things that, you know, you may as you said earlier, dog food companies are required to provide nutritionally complete diets. But typically, the more you spend the better quality for pet food you're going to get. And if people are willing to you know, go for, you know, raw diet, frozen diet, home prepared diet, you know, look at that, but, you know, some nutritional supplements would be provide components of a complete and balanced diet. There's some up and coming products that are completers, right, you take a protein source, and then you have a supplement that would have the other nutrients that you add to your own protein source. That would make a complete balanced diet. So does that help clarify that?
Thank you. That's That's great. Well, they'll as we are wrapping up, what would you like to leave us with today?
Well, Bill, I really appreciate the opportunity Krista, I'm very sorry that this is your last episode, but again, I'm honored to be selected to contribute. I guess I'd leave you with my contact information. If people have a question and they hear this podcast don't hesitate to reach out to me because you can get a hold of me. You know, www.animalsupplements.org is our website. My email address is b.bookout@NASC.cc
Shoot me a note, don't hesitate to pick up the phone, give me a call, check out our website and look for the NASC seal. And, you know, long, happy, healthy life to everybody on the podcast. I really appreciate you listening.
Thank you, Bill. And I will have all of these links in the show notes.
OFFER:
And Bill is giving a great offer. He is offering up a free copy of the NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. And there's a form on their website, and I have the link again, it's going to be in the show notes. All you have to do is click on it and you'll have access to that NASC Pocket Guide to dog and cat health. Bill, I can't thank you enough. And I'm so glad that you reached out to me those months and months ago and set me straight that there is regulation. And we need more of that in the entire industry, not just in the supplement division.
So I want to thank you for starting this amazing organization, and for being on here today. And I want to thank all of the listeners for wanting to do better and to advocate for their dog's health. So Bill, thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Thank you very much. It's an honor.
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Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time.
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