Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
In this episode, in honor of World Cancer Day on February 4, 2024, we are talking about our own experiences of having a loved one diagnosed and die from cancer. We chat about the journey starting with anticipatory grief and leading into a new phase of grief when our person takes his/her last breath. If you like what you have heard and it resonates for you - please hit the "like" and "subscribe" button so you can stay connected with us for future episodes! To chat with Cami about her Embodied Grief Support Coaching - please head on over to her website: www.bearfootyogi.com to view her services and send her an email at: cami@bearfootyogi.com or give her a call at 651.322.0300! If you are interested in learning more about becoming a certified grief coach - sign up for a time to chat with Pat about becoming a confident grief coach: https://bit.ly/GriefCoachChat Download Pat's free ebook, "The Confident Grief Coach: A Guide For Helping Clients Process Loss" here: theconfidentgriefcoach.com
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Welcome to the NEW Confident Grief Coach Show hosted by Pat Sheveland, Founder of the International Academy for Grief and the Confident Grief Coach School and Cami Thelander, Founder of Grief Embodiment Coaching.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
In this episode, our guest is Cami Thelander who is a passionate grief coach whose mission is to provide “embodied grief support” for those who are grieving. Cami experience deep loss at a young age.
Her story is profound yet not uncommon – her grief accumulated over the years until she had the deep realization that she was holding her grief within her body. Her journey brought her to where she is today – an advanced certified grief coach who incorporates feeling into the grief physically in addition to emotionally.
Cami Thelander is a Bachelor of Science, Advanced Certified Grief Coach, Certified Yoga Instructor, Death Doula, and Craniosacral Therapy Practitioner dedicated to holding space for grief and loss. She has created a unique approach to grief that she calls Embodied Grief Support, which combines Grief Coaching, Craniosacral Therapy, and mindfulness practices for a body-centered, whole-person approach to healing from loss.
Grief activates the body stress response and can cause a variety of physical symptoms including fatigue, brain fog, body aches and pains, and compromises the immune system. Embodied Grief Support addresses the physical and emotional impacts of stress, provides a safe space to process grief, and offers techniques to self- regulate the nervous system to cope with waves of grief.
Cami also offers virtual Grief Coaching sessions and online yoga classes for accessible grief support. You can learn more about Cami and her offerings at www.bearfootyogi.com, or you can reach her by email: cami@bearfootyogi.com or phone: (651) 322-0300.
#griefsupport #griefcoach
Shownotes:
Hi.There. I am really excited to have my next guest. She actually is a colleague. I'm working with me and the rest of us at the International Academy for Grief, Tammy Thelander. Iwant to welcome Cammy. I just want to let everybody know a little bit about you before we dive right in and have a great conversation about all things grief.
Yay. I always love to talk. About grief. Thanks, Friend.
Don't we? We're those people. Yeah. Cammi has her Bachelor's of Science. She is a certified grief coach. She's actually an advanced certified grief coach, a certified yoga instructor. She is a death doula and a cranial sacral therapy practitioner. So she's really well-rounded when it comes to all things, body, emotions, connecting, all of that. And she is dedicated to holding the space for grief and loss. She has created a unique approach to grief that she calls, I love this, Embodied Grief Support, which combines grief coaching, her cranial sacral therapy, and mindfulness practices for a body-centered, whole-person approach to healing from loss. Grief activates the body's stress response and can cause a variety of physical symptoms, including fatigue, brain fog. I mean, all of us have experienced some grief. We've had this. Body aches and pains and compromises the immune system. Tammy's embodied grief support addresses the physical and the emotional aspects of stress, provides a safe space to process grief, and offers techniques to help self-regulate the nervous system in order to cope with waves of grief. She offers virtual grief coaching sessions and online yoga classes for accessible grief support in addition to people that are local to her. She lives in Minnesota with some of her other cranial sacral therapy, and someday I'm going to have you be doing that for me. I'll have Cammi's information in our show notes, but right now we're just going to dive in and have a great conversation. Okay, so welcome again.
Thank you. Yeah, it was just like taking all that in from the introduction was honestly really cool. I don't often hear other people introducing me like that, and just to really let it sink in like, This is what I do. I can make out the world. I had a little proud moment for myself there. Actually doing the grief work feels really proud.
Well, and it just sit in that accomplishment. When we have gone through it... And, Cammi, are you going to talk a little bit about the certification programs. But one of the things, how we start in the certification programs is we start doing a little breathe exercise because the coaching model is the breathe coaching model for grief. But then we go around the room and say, who will you today? Who are you? Not what you did, but who are you? And it's so cool when you can just sit in that and just go, wow, I'm doing good. I've got some great stuff going on inside of me and who I be. Well, thank you for being here. I guess my first question to you is you've done so much and the Death doula and the cranial sacral and all of that type of thing. What's your why? Why did you start really diving into all of this?
Well, I think all of these things found me. As I just kept going with my life in my own grief, I was seeking my own healing and stumbled upon all of these different modalities that I didn't even know were helping me in my grief. I started with essential oils, and that was really connecting with plants and allowing the healing medicine of plants to help calm me down from when I would have a big grief wave and not know how to handle it. It was like all of a sudden I just started finding all of these things that were supportive for me. So it just expanded into these modalities and cranial psychotherapy being the biggest one that was the most transformational for at my point in my life when I found cranial psychotherapy and I literally stumbled into it. And then from there, I just kept finding things that felt more and more aligned. I was in school for cranial psychotherapy, and a student there had told me that she was going to be starting a death doula training. That was the first time that I heard about that. I was like, Are you serious? That's a job? You can get paid to be with people while they die? Yes, please. I want to be that person. It just kept unfolding. That's how I found you and the Grief Coach School as well was just these happenstances that just me being open and receptive to what was next for me led me to all of these different things that would support me in my journey and then, of course, be supportive for other people as well once I got the hang of it.
Wow, that's amazing. And it is. I think that people will say to me, Well, that's got to be really hard. And why do you do what you do? And it's like, I didn't choose to be working in grief. Grief chose me from the time that I was a little girl. So if you're willing to just share, when did you really step into that world of grief? How old are you? And what were the circumstances of that?
Yeah, my grief started from a young age. I feel like I grew up on grief in some levels. My parents had a rocky relationship that I witnessed at home with them growing up, and they divorced when I was nine. There was just some conflict and separation that was happening in the household. And around that time as well, we lost our home before closure. Right away, there were some non-death losses and grief that I was experiencing just within the household. Not long after my parents divorced, my dad was diagnosed with ALS. Then I was 10 years old and spent the next year watching my dad slowly die. The disease actually progressed pretty quickly. Als can draw out for many years, but his was just about a year long. I was with him, seeing him on weekends, going to his house on weekends before he was too sick to be in hospice. I watched the disease slowly take him. That was really hard being 11. I was with him bedside when he passed as well. I remember that day being so chaotic. It was just like there was no communication as far as how this transition should go.
It was super rushed. I remember being very confused, being 11 years old, like what's happening? All of a sudden, I'm here now and walked into the room. It was literally as soon as we got there, he was hanging on for us. It was like, as soon as we got there, he was gone. That just felt crazy, chaotic, and hard to process being 11. Later, I realized that there was a lot of the confusion of it was because the adults were trying to protect me being a kid and were not sharing a lot of information with me about what was happening in that created conflict with processing my grief during that time. And then while all of that was happening, my mom met her boyfriend at the time, and eventually they got married. I had this new family that I was being opened up to while my dad was sick and dying. So that was interesting to have a whole new family and a new father figure to support me through all of this. I really did open up to him. His name was Greg, and my mom married him knowing that he had prostate cancer.
A good portion of my time with him was spent just knowing with this fear in the back of my head that this person could very much be another temporary father figure in my life. Although I opened up to him and embraced him as my new dad or this role of a dad in my life, I only had about seven years with him. He ended up passing from prostate cancer. I was 15 years old. He was at home. His death, compared to my dad's death—I was there at bedside with him too—was totally different. He had the good death that you could say of surrounded by family. They had the communication ahead of time as far as how he wanted it to go, what prayers to be read, what songs to be played, all of that good stuff. I saw a contrast with the dying process with both of my dads. That's partially what made me so interested in being a death doula, is being there for that process. I was 15 years old and had just gone through all that and really just wanted to be a kid. I didn't want to be thinking about this a stuff, but my role had been upgraded now to the oldest daughter.
I was taking care of my sister who was younger and cleaning the house, grocery shopping, doing stuff like that because my mom had just lost her husband. She was destroyed. We were all destroyed. I just picked up that responsibility. I just did what I needed to do and focused on school and went to college eventually. Next thing I know, I'm in college and I'm struggling with all kinds of issues like depression and anxiety and panic attacks. I developed an eating disorder. I had a lot of other physical symptoms that were happening in my body. I realized that all of these symptoms were because I was running away from my grief. I had no idea how to process that. It was like, right after Greg died, I just jumped into this sense of responsibility and doing, doing, doing, action, go, go, go. Just need to get through school, just need to get to college. Then when I finally got to college, I was like, Whoa, removed from the house and in a new city. I had moved away and went to college. I just started really realizing what just happened. I just felt like my life just sped through since I was nine, really all the way up to being 18 or 19 going to college.
That's really when I started to realize that I needed to figure out how to deal with grief. But I had no idea where to start. I saw my school counselor. There was a counselor there that you could go to for free. I started seeing her and eventually got on some medications to help with the anxiety and the depression. And things were not getting better. If anything, things were getting worse because I was still living all of these tendencies and habits that I had developed in order to keep me away from actually going deep into what I needed to face, which was, of course, the pain of my grief and all the losses that I had just experienced. So it took me a few more years after that until I really, I would say, hit my rock bottom with just physically and mentally feeling so ill and just getting worse and worse. I remember deciding that I needed to do something about my stress and went to a yoga class. I was in this yoga class and I was laying in Shivassana at the end of class, and I was balling my eyes out. I was like, Holy crap.
All of a sudden, my body just took that little piece of rest and just started dumping out all these things that I had been shoving in there for so long.
That's tsunami of grief, right? Yes.
Wow. Yeah, it just flooded over me and started to move. I realized, Wow, I got to do more of this because that was intense. I feel better. I feel better after crying and moving and breathing and connecting with myself and feeling all the things that I had been running away from. So that's really I remember that moment was like, okay, I'm going to start exploring more of this. And that just snowballed into supplements and herbs to help with anxiety and depression, essential oils, and that eventually just snowballed into energy medicine and food as medicine and body work and yoga. So that was all happening while I was in college studying biology and playing outside.
Wow. And it was just like, Well, that was an epiphany moment. It's like all of a sudden you realize your body just finally said to you, Enough is enough. We need to really deal with this. And oftentimes it takes that a moment of, Now what do I do? And you actually had the wisdom to say, okay, I need to explore. I need to explore what are all these different things so that you can touch your body and that's the whole embodiment, right? We try to show that the emotions, and if you go back to ancient Chinese philosophy and the Five elements, which goes back thousands and thousands and thousands of years, they learned that how emotions really impact our physical bodies. The worrying, the stress, taking over, like misresponsibility as a kid.
Yeah.
I need to be responsible. I got to clean the house. I got to help raise my little sister. I've got to take care of mom and protect mom. All of those things go right into the gut issues and all of that. The grief into the lungs and all of that type of thing. So all of these things just really start showing up. And so eating disorder is not uncommon.
Yeah.
Now depression, that's where the grief depression all settles in our lung energy. And so once we can start releasing that and unblocking those energy areas through healthy ways of dealing with it, movement, breathing, meditation, all of that. It's just like things shift so dramatically.
Yeah, absolutely. Luckily, I had had a background learning about holistic healthcare because when Greg was sick with prostate cancer, we explored a lot of those healing modalities for him. I had been introduced to a lot of those things from a young age, so it was natural for me to want to explore those things because I knew from that, from the symptoms in my body that there was something else internally that needed to be put into balance again. But I had assumed that it was like, Oh, well, maybe it's my food, maybe it's an allergy, maybe it's all of these things that were outside of myself. I was still focusing externally, trying to find a solution because I was still not ready to go inward until finally I was ready. And I was like, Okay, here we go. Let's dive deep. Let's go in. And then all of those things were especially supportive, but they weren't effective unless I started that inward journey. And that's the piece that's the hard part that none of us really know where to start with because it's just...Yeah.It's a world of fear that we're stepping into with facing our grief and all the pain that we're holding on to.
Well, and if you look at your story, I mean, you think about the layering and layering and layering upon layers of various grief. So it's the death of, well, it's watching someone... The anticipatory grief of a chronic illness, but wasn't so chronic because your dad's was very fast. Then the loss of the safety of a home, that's a big grief when all of a sudden that's gone. Then you get into another relationship where you really are connecting. Then another physical loss, again, anticipatory grief on top of that. Your mom's got layered grief, grieving for you girls, you're grieving for your mom, seeing how devastating this was for her. You're grieving for your sister. We almost forget about our own grief because we're so busy taking care of everybody else and wanting to fix it and make it that way. So all of that, and then going away and then just getting away from the safety of family. There's an intentional abandonment there, but there's so much abandonment that you've experienced, too, that wasn't like you're being thrown away, but it was like, all of a sudden, these people are not in your lives or this situation is not in your life anymore.
And abandonment, to me, is a huge piece of a grief journey, and we have to do some really deep work to get our arms around that and then get to a point where we can reframe it into a way that palatable that we can live with.
Right. And slowing down enough to recognize that those things are coming up too. Like even just talking about abandonment, I noticed a lot of those challenges coming up in relationship with men later in my life. It's like if I wasn't aware of that deep belief from my inner child about this feeling of being abandoned, I was not aware of that for many years, and it caused so many issues for me. Even now it's coming up again with grief in this holiday season with my partner now. It's like, I'm calling it out and I'm holding it, and I'm cradling it and I'm giving space for these feelings. And by growing that awareness is allowing me to reframe that belief and to keep healing that inner child wound that does still feel abandoned on the inside.
Because the grief never goes away. Right. Part of in the course that we do in the Confident Grief Coach is we lean into Mary Francis O'Connor's work, The Grieving Brain. And I love how she talks about this is grief will always be here within us. The grief doesn't go away because it's a loss. But the way that we're grieving the action, the is what really changes over time. And the more resilient we get, or sometimes it actually escalates a little bit more because the more layering or something's going to trip us up, like the abandonment, like you said. And so then that's where how are we dealing with those pieces? So yeah, amazing. So part of what we wanted to talk about today is the Confident Grief Coach school and creating some awareness. Tammy is actually full disclosure, is working with me and a couple of others who I lean into as the leadership of the International Academy for Grief and to help really support me in ways that we don't have all the skills of everything. And so she really is our engagement leader. She's the queen of engagement. She is so honest and embracing. You've started a Facebook group for grievers, and that is. Called what?
The Embodied Grief Support Group.
Yeah. And so you grew that in a very short period of time. I think I just saw there was... You have quite a few members now in a very short period of time.
Yeah, I think I started it just this summer, so three or four months ago, and I think we just reached 850-ish members. So there is a need.
There is a need, right. Yeah. And so Cammi is getting out there and sharing some of her wisdom and that type of thing and creating a space for people who are grieving. And she's also working with our team to help create a space because we want to encourage and invite people who are helping the grievers to have a safe space to come together to collaborate to support one another. Because holding the space of grief for other people, we do it, and it's not like we carry it around because we've learned tools of not carrying around other people's grief, but it still is you need to be healthy and keeping ourselves together. And also we may have clients that we might be questioning or struggling like something's just not working here. And so this would be an opportunity for people to connect it and just be in community. That's really what it is. That's Cammi's initiatives. Her own grief coaching practice where she has done beautifully, and then also helping me to stand up through the International Academy for Grief that we actually have a community for the people who are the grief supporters and the providers of services.
Yeah, I was just going to compliment that because I think it's so awesome that we're here creating the space for, for one, encouraging more grief support providers to go out into the world by, of course, your training grief coaches to go out and support the grievers because we need more of that. But then also to have this mastermind and to have these resources and this community and this nourishment for the people that are supporting others in their grief is just like so special to me because, of course, we know being our own entrepreneurs and business owners and all those things, it's tough. It's really tough doing this in the world and the fact that it's grief-related and oftentimes there's heavy emotions and traumas that come up. We need to lean on other people. This just feels like such the perfect environment to have that safe space to make sure that the work that we're doing is in our honest, authentic alignment of supporting people in the best of our ability. And in order to do that, we really do need a mastermind in the community for us holding that space. I'm just excited that this is growing.
Me too. I'm so excited. 2024 is just like... We've just started working on some of this. We're in the infancy stages of it, but we know that in 2024, it's just going to get stronger and stronger. So you went through the Confident Grief Coach. I don't even know when you graduated from that. It's been a while. And then took some time, and then you decided, I want to raise my hand to go into the advanced grief coaching program that we have, which we just stood up last year to really help people so that they want to be certified through the International Coaching Federation. So you were in our first class. And I remember watching... There was five of you in that first class and having known all of you very well from being in the Confident Grief Coach because we spent a lot of time in community there, in our practicums every week, getting to know each other, a lot of coaching between the students, that type of thing. But there was such an amazing energy, up-leveling. And so what made you decide that, you know what? I want to up-level even more. I want to take that on.
I think for me, after going through the grief program, I was very certain that this is my calling and this is what I needed to do. And of course, all of my other pieces of my background, everything was just coming together. So I knew that this was like, I needed to be the best that I could possibly be as far as a grief coach. I remember starting the Confident Grief Coach program, and it was the first or second session or something, and you had asked me to coach you. I was like, Are you serious? I don't know how to do any of this. I was just so nervous and freaking out a little bit. I remember graduating from that feeling a little bit more confident of like, Okay, well, I feel like I can do this now. But I still was not like... I knew that I had a lot of growth ahead of me still as far as being the best that I could possibly be, because I really want to make sure... Of course, it's such a sensitive topic supporting people in grief. I wanted to make sure that I'm doing it to the best of my ability.
That was really like when you had offered that the advanced course like, Yes, sign me up. I want to continue to be the best coach possible. I had already gained a lot of confidence in that first program. But this waslike really just an opportunity to nail in all the skills that we had learned and to practice more and more and to gain more feedback and to really understand the coaching model and what it means to be a good coach. So that was so helpful for me, just with my confidence in going out there and supporting clients in the world. Like, no, I actually know what I'm doing. There's a structure to it. I have this practice and these skills and this support, and I feel good about showing up for people in this way. I think I did need that extra course and that extra certification to gain that confidence and that up-leveling, like you said, of like, Here I am, world. I was ready to hold space for the grievers in a different way than already the confidence that the first program had provided me with.
Yeah, truly the coaching skills, which is what we really focus on, is true coaching skills as defined by the International Coaching Federation and the core competencies there. Because for me, I've been involved in that and been a certified through ICF for a long time, many years. I just knew that there's some credibility and the whole, what do I want to say, strength behind the program and ensuring that we're really helping our clients. They're creative, resourceful, and whole, and we're helping them to really tap into all that they are that they may not see at the time. The results are pretty amazing. I know from my own practice and having been doing this for well over a decade specifically for grief, talk to me a little bit about what you've seen in your own clients and some of the transformation that you've seen by them going through your program.
That's my favorite part. It's like by the time we reached that last session with a client and were able to reflect on their progress and to retake the numbers of the emotional barometer and the life engagement scale, I'm very straight up with them about like, How do you feel now with your ability to navigate your grief going off into the world? Because I don't want to leave someone hanging if they still feel like they are needing support. And so far, with the handful of clients that I've worked with, we get to that end session and they're like, No, I feel great. I feel like I have the tools and the skills that I need to be able to take care of myself moving forward. I know what to do when these things come up. I know who I can turn to. They just have that solid framework of being able to support themselves. When before, they may have been partaking in self-destructive behaviors and creating a lot of imbalance in relationships and a lot of other challenges that were coming through in their life. So to just get to that end session with the client and to just reflect and celebrate the program, and then to hear about their confidence with being able to go off and to handle their own grief in their life.
Just like, That's my goal. I don't want you to lean on me forever. Now you go up and learn how to do this in your life because you'll have to do it for the rest of your life. That's really like, I love that last session because it's just a reflection of all the progress that they have really created for themselves. That's different for everybody, so that always lights me up.
I always said I wish that I had a time-lapse camera where you could start seeing them when they first come and they're scared, they're nervous. It's like, Oh, my gosh, what did I sign up for in this grief coaching program? And the tears are falling and just feeling so vulnerable. And then you watch them over the course of an eight-week, ten-week period, however long you do it, and you just see them continually just growing and confident and laughing and allowing their grief to really co-exist with all the joy and the hope of I can continue on this life and I can have a really good life. Right? Yeah. That's just amazing. So when people come into the program, the way it is right now is I feel very strongly that people have to interview with me before enrolling and being accepted into the program. And that's usually a two-way street. I want to make sure that people can feel aligned with the energy I have and the energy my teachers have, that type of thing. But also to make sure that they're ready for this because I don't want someone to come into the program and not be ready.
But the other thing about the confidence grief coach, our initial program is I always say it's a two for one because I expect the students to go through the breathe coaching model for grief and be coached on that throughout our time together during the certification program because we all have a grief. If we haven't, then we've been living in a bubble, I'm sure, some type of grief that's there. This is a way to explore that and help really learn and integrate the tools that we're sharing with our clients when we go out into the world. And so they get that plus they get the breathe coaching model for grief. I've taken that. And for you, it's like I'm bringing in some other embodiment support. I'm using this program, but I'm also bringing in my special sauce, which we want everybody to authentically be as grief coaches out there. You don't all want to be Pat. I have my own way of doing things, but to create that special sauce thing that's really going to help authentically with your own clients. What are some of the benefits just in the overall program that you walked away with? I have two questions. What are some of the benefits? You talked a little bit about that, but just having gone through a program where you became certified, where you really invested into it, time, money, energy. Then what's been the return on investment just by going through that program? Because for all programs, it costs money to go in because we have to keep the doors open and the lights on and continually add in more into our programs. There is an investment in it. But what has been the return for you personally?
I think for that first piece, just touching on just going through the program and the benefits of receiving the program and experiencing the breathe model as someone who experiences grief and going through my own process while also learning how to share this with others. I would say that alone covered the return on investment energetically and emotionally and just from a heart-centered space of just processing my grief and learning tools for showing up for myself in my grief process. So just alone going through the program was a big shift for me in my grief process, even having that... At that time, it was like 13 years after my dad died. I had plenty of time, but there's always more to feel back and explore. I love this model because no matter where you're at, you're able to benefit from all the tools with the breathe model. That alone was a big enough return on investment as far as being a part of the program and experiencing it and learning it. I would say the biggest thing that comes up is this feeling of hope, this light, this path forward that sometimes gets so foggy when we're in grief.
I think this program is laid out perfectly to start where you're at and then to open up to this idea of hope and vision and this life that you really want to create that's still very much holding your grief and your loss and remembering your person. Just to incorporate that into my life and to have more honoring practices for my dads and my grief was really super beneficial for me. As far as the return on investments, of course, being able to guide other people through this and to be able to receive money in return for that as well, I mean, that paid off, I think, within two clients. It didn't take long, honestly. Now I've just signed my seventh client and I have another interest for a number eight in January. So it really doesn't take long. And I haven't even... I mean, it's only been just over a year since I graduated the Confident Grief Coach school. So within a year, I've already tripled my investment or a three times return on investment. So that feels really good. It feels like the energetic return of it is so much greater than the monetary piece of it.
And of course, we need that piece as far as being able to support this work consistently in the world and receive that, the return as well. But it's really like I would say, the benefits really are, of course, for anyone who does support people in grief and can see that progress of the clients and can see the hope and the light and that vision of this new life that just creates a total shift in someone's whole life. That alone is worth the whole program.
Yeah. And of course, I feel the same way, but I helped develop the program, so it's always nice to hear that from someone else. And oftentimes, and I think all of us have had to do our own work on asking for money from people who grieve. This is one of these places where it's not like you have a program that people are used to buying, that type of thing. We all go through this deep reflection into how do I do this without feeling like I'm taking advantage of someone who is in grief? You and I had a recent conversation about the charging factor. We have to have a financial... These are our businesses, so we have to have a financial remuneration from that, right? We need to be able to do that to keep our lights on and our doors open. But yet there's a lot of, and I'm getting bombarded with them lately, of offers like, let's build your high ticket item and your six-figure, your five-figure item, and we can get you there in no time. And it's like that's not what we're about in the grief space. There's no way that we're going to go and ask someone to pay exorbitant amounts of money to be able to support themselves.
And I think honestly, how most people I don't tell people how to charge because you bring your own special sauce and other things into it. But in reality, if we take a look at, I don't think that we want to really exchange dollars for hours, which is a typical model. We're really here to help people, help them transform their lives. And so it really is about the outcome of it. But if you did do exchange dollars for hours, it's really not extraordinary. You would be paying your therapist that, you would be paying your chiropractor that, you'd be paying your acupuncturists. It's not like it's like, Well, this is way too much money. And for people that are listening to this, if you're considering grief coaching, there is that piece of it is to take a look at what is it that you're really looking for? What's the worth to you to feel like you could continue moving down a path where you can have happiness and hope and even joy and a sense of purpose that you may not have right now in your grief, because that's what you'll get when you're connecting with the Cami's of the world who have been trained to do this, and to get all of that in a 10-week program and all the tools and resources and that type of thing.
Like Cammi said, she doesn't want people to be coming every week for the rest of their lives because we're all about empowerment. And that's why the confidence and grief coach, that's an energy. Confidence is an energy. And we want to flow that confidence to our clients.
I love that. And it's so hard to measure that worth. I've been struggling with, what do I charge for this program? I've had some business coaches that are like, Well, look at this transformation that you're providing people. You should be charging way more because look at all this change that you're helping someone with. And it's like, yes, however, that's not going to do any good if nobody can afford it. So being able to just really make this accessible for people is important to me, and I think that can go into how you structure your program as well. So yeah, there's a lot to consider with that stuff. But the transformation is just the abundance and the energetic wealth that you're receiving from going through something like that is, I think, you can't put a price tag on it.
Right. And it's how much you put in. I'm going to be totally honest here too, as I've had people like... It's just like, it's just like, oh, I'm not going to make any money at coaching or having this a model. And it's like, but yes, you will. But the bottom line is you have to put yourself out there. So you and I and our team, we're going to be creating more services so that we can really help people that are graduates of the program to stand up their businesses. I give a lot of that information. Everything that I use in my business, I give to you all to use so that you can get set up so you don't have to invest all kinds of money into websites and this thing and that thing that you can really just start helping people with that. But as we go into 2024, we're going to have more great tools and resources and classes and different things like that, so we can really help the people who are supporting the griefed because that's what we're all about. The vision for the International Academy for Grief is one that came to me in my mind about a month or two after my mom died, and it was to provide accessible and transformative healing for grieving families throughout the world.
But we have to start in our own backyard. We have to start there and to make it accessible. That may be financially, it may be partnering with people. It's just there's a wide variety of how we can do that. We just wanted to share that with all of you today, too. Cami, I'm going to give you information. How do they connect with you?
Well, I do have a website that has a lot of information on the other things that I do, like my embodies approach to grief and the cranial psychotherapy and how I incorporate yoga and that stuff. So my business is called barefootyoggy, bearliketheanimal. So barefootyoggy. Com is my website, and that will have all kinds of information on how to contact me and reach me from there. And then also my Facebook group, the Embodied Grief Support group is obviously a free resource, and you get a lot of me sharing all these tools and resources and connecting and engaging from there too. I encourage people to check that out as well.
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, my dear. I'll be seeing you soon, of course, but just hang on. And thank you, everybody, who is listening to this. We are honored that you've taken a listen, and we really are here and excited to expand how we can support others to support people in their grief. Bye.
Thanks, Pat. Bye.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Shownotes:
Thank you for joining us back here for our series on adoption, Where Grief and Gratitude Co-exist. This series of interviews has been created to share the many faces of adoption to bring not only awareness, but I'm hoping some sense of community and support for those of you who are chosen as an adoptee, for those of you who have opened your hearts to love a child who needed a home, and for those of you who are interested in getting more involved by supporting those who have the lived experience that my guests have lived. I hope you enjoy the episode, and if you do, please hit the like and subscribe button so you can help us continue to do what we have been doing over here in the Healing Family Grief community.
Healing Family Grief. As a reminder, we will be holding a live panel discussion event on Sunday, November fifth at eight o'clock, US Eastern time, where you could join us to ask questions, hear more from our panel, and also learn how you can get support if you are struggling with grief due to adoption, or if you would like to learn how to become a coach to support those struggling with adoption grief. I'll have the link in the show notes. In our final recorded interview, we are talking with Leah Sheveland. Leah's story is pretty extraordinary given the circumstances of her birth.
And the fact that she was abandoned as a little tiny 1.2-pound infant in a Dropbox in Calcutta, India. Lea's story is different than the others in this series because she truly has no way of finding out about her biological family. We discussed how not having that ability probably shaped how she has never had that extraordinary, deep yearning to learn where she came from or the culture of her birth country.
Doing this interview actually spurned a new desire within her. Now she's been talking to me about We should create a coaching program through our Healing Family Grief platform that is a tailored for adoption. So give it a listen. I hope you enjoy the show. And if you're interested in getting onto our panel discussion, please check the notes below and there will be a link to sign up. Talk to you soon.
Hello, everybody. I am so excited because I have someone special. This is the last of our series of four interviews that I'm doing regarding Adoption, Where Grief and Gratitude Co-Exist. Today, I am interviewing my bonus daughter. I have lots of bonus daughters. Leah is one that I spend a lot of time with, live with her and the kids. My son is gone a lot, so I spend a lot of time actually in their home, in the mother-in-law suite and hanging out. Leah has a great story of adoption, different than everybody else that we've talked about. But again, my family is just immersed in adoption with lots of different stories. And so Leah is going to share a little bit about her story, and I'm just going to ask her some questions along. Hi, Leah.
Hey. Good to see you again, and welcome to everybody.
Yeah. So if you would, could you just gives us, as much as you feel comfortable, a little bit about your adoption story?
Sure. We're going to date ourselves here. I am 41 years old. So my story is 40 years old, but it actually started in the late '70s. My mother was engaged to somebody from Europe, and they had planned on starting a family living in the US. He was here going to school and they worked together. Then all of a sudden, his only sibling committed suicide and he decided he needed to go back to Germany to be with his parents. She was at the time already 30 and found herself single and decided there wasn't going to be a lot of time to find somebody else and start a family, and a family was something she really wanted. She explored lots of different options, and at the time, single women, and especially that had crossed the line to their 30s were not really what the US considered adoption worthy parents. They really wanted moms and dads. They really wanted younger folks, just things that she didn't qualify for. So she had had some friends who were in a similar boat and decided that they would look at international adoption. She started some of the research to find an agency and all those things through Children's Home, which still today exists in the US for replacing American children.
But they had some connections with some international adoption agencies, one of them being International Mission of Hope, who was founded in Vietnam in the 1970s and expanded to India in, I think, '77 is what I heard, but started by an American who she was to a doctor. She was very well to do here in this country. They decided to move their family over to Vietnam to start this because there was a lot of Vietnamese children in the '70s that were looking for homes and then expanded to India. Right around the time, Mother Teresa started her adoption agency, any others out of there because again, there was so many children waiting and orphaned. She started the process of putting in a referral doing just like you do in the US. You have to get a physical, you have to submit your financial records, all these things to show that you could really feasibly take a child. If those of you that are old enough might remember this, those of you that aren't, there was a baby selling scandal that came up against Indian adoption in the late '70s, which shut adoption down for a couple of years.
There was a lot of controversy around was there baby selling, were people making money and profit off poor people's misfortune, things like that. She thought, Well, I don't know if this is the thing, but there's not really anything else. We'll just wait it out. By the time that was over, she was 35 years old, 1981. It started up again and there was adoptions both from Korea and India through IMH. She would put her name back on the list. How this list worked was basically the next baby that came in, if it was your number, it was yours. It was a referral system. You put your name on the list. Think of it like taking a ticket from a driver's license counter. When your number is called, you come up and that's your kid. You don't get to choose, you don't get to put in special requests for children as they come and as the next person is waiting. She went back on the list. In 1982, she got a call that I was born and that I was hers. She was thrilled, absolutely thrilled. She had finally gotten her family on board. My grandma was one of those that maybe didn't like a lot of change in her life, had this idea of what her family was going to look like, found herself as an older mother.
She had my aunt at 40, so she was used to being older, but still thought it would look something like a picture perfect life. At the same time that I was born, my aunt married a man from Turkey who had dreadlocks and dark skin and all this. Between the two, my grandma was like, What in the world is going on with this family? But it all worked out wonderfully, and she got my name. All two moved here from Turkey in '82 as well, so we joke that we both came at the same time, but he aged much worse than me. That said, it was beginning of a different look in our family. They are all blonde hair, blue eyes, Scandinavian and German background. All of a sudden, all two and I come and we change what the look of this family and then from there on, grandkids and everything would look like. That was it's an exciting thing. But back to my story in India, and especially in the '80s again, there was a caste system, and it was very much considered if you did something that you shouldn't have, you got kicked out of your caste, which would change your economic future, your social future, all those things.
At the time, many women who found themselves pregnant out of wedlock would either seek abortions or put their babies up for adoption. Calcutta is still today one of the poorest cities in the world, but again, at that time was extremely poor, dirty, people were dying in streets. I have heard stories that are just disgusting. In fact, all those stories have made me never want to go back to visit. But that said, they had these things called adoption drop boxes, and think of it like a library card or book return where you just open the door, conveyor belt comes, you put your book on and it goes back into the library. This was you put your baby on it and it goes into this home that was started by this Cherie who started International Mission of Hope. It was a hospital. They called it a nursing home, but a hospital that took in orphan to children or abandoned children were cared for by US doctors. There were also some Europeans there, I think. Then when they were strong enough, they were sent home via Northwest Airlines at the time to their family. I was born, they think, actually probably a late-stage abortion gone wrong because I was born very early, so I weighed a little over a pound.
Probably would not have made it if my mom had not accepted that referral, but anyway, was dropped. We guess, I don't think you'd live that much longer, so probably the birthday is right, but we guess at a time or anything else because my birth certificate does say abandoned child. The way adoptions work, unfortunately, until it's a legal adoption in the US, your health insurance does not cover said to be child. My mom had to pay out of pocket for all of the care that I was going to need to be able to get strong enough, which by their standards was six pounds to be able to take the flight from India to the US. Most babies did that within a couple of weeks and came home around a month. I was much closer to the five-month mark, but she didn't even think twice. It was like, Absolutely, that's my kid, I'll pay for it. It was wonderful that she did that. Then three years later, she repeated the process and I got a sister, not biological, but from the same orphanage, and her family was then made of the two of us. She never did marry.
She dated much later in life, but never did marry. That was her family. Because her marriage fell through and then because she decided to really look at how she could grow her family outside the typical means that we ended up a family. It's a very great story. She always used to say, You may not have grown under my heart, but you grew in my heart. Because she would get updates every day above one day, my heart stopped. So she got an update. Do you still want to resuscitate and do this and that and whatever? I got pneumonia. Do you still want to treat that? It's very expensive. It requires one-on-one care. She was getting updates regularly. There was times where she could have thrown the towel and then said, I'll take the next available, but she did not. It was a whole different a lot of people pray to get pregnant or have kids. She prayed that this would and it would work and it would be a healthy child, and then same with my sister, three years later.
It's funny. Leah and I met after her mom had passed when she started going out with my son. And when I heard her story, I said, Oh, my gosh. I just know that Mother Teresa held you somewhere she got to that orphanage and she held you because you should not have made it to where you are and be the brightest and such an accomplished woman and health-wise and darn decent health. And you said that your mother used to say the same thing.
She did. She always swore that Mother Teresa… And it was interesting because Mother Teresa had her own agency going in Calcutta at the same time, but they would wander, as I hear it, wander the streets looking for babies that didn't get lucky enough to be put on the conveyor belt and maybe they put them on themselves. But they were looking for these abandoned children in the streets of Calcutta to make sure that part of Mother Teresa's whole journey was to save lives and to really help India. And so she would walk the streets and my mom swears that she's the one who found me in some dark alley and put it on the conveyor belt and probably not hers because it was too far away and this small infant was not going to live.
Yeah.
See hers. But she does swear that that's the only reason I was around
And I feel the same way I always have from the moment that I met you. You came into this family then three years later, your sister came into this family, very different. You and your sister are very different people, that type of thing. I had some challenges there in terms of education and being able to, what do I say, learning challenges and that type of thing. You didn't, your sister did. So your mom had to spend a lot of time with your sister from that perspective. And you got very close with your nanny and pops, your grandparents, the one who was like, Oh, my gosh, what's happening to our family? So great to you. What would you say when you look over your life have been the challenges of being adopted and being brought over? Are there any that you say and what might those be?
So it's interesting because I've heard the story again about nanny, we'll lovingly call her nanny. And a quick funny story there is the maternal grandmother in India is called nanny. And my grandma never wanted to be Grandma Johnson because grandma Johnson already existed and was not the nicest woman in the world. So she, being her first grandchild, hoped and prayed that I would not come up with grandma Johnson, and on my own, I came up with nanny. So she was in love right away, but obviously that probably sealed the deal. And if you ask anybody, she used to call it her bookends, but my cousin Anthony, who was the last and I was the first of five of them, were by far her favorites, and she didn't even try to hide it. She would just very openly had favorites. And it's funny because she was so against in the beginning this idea and whatever that I would end up being her favorite. And maybe it's first, maybe it's that we spent a lot of time together. I'm not quite sure. But some people would see that as a challenge. It was never a challenge for me because we bonded as if I was her blood-related grandchild.
But other people were not always so accepting. People with little kids are fairly blunt in what they say because it's black and white. Well, you don't look like so and so. Well, correct, I don't. I do have a picture here. This is my mom. You can see the blonde hair, blue eyes, and then you can see the dark skin that I have. It was very obvious growing up. It wasn't one of those where you look like your family. You could pretend a little bit longer or keep the secret a little bit longer. It was well-known. But would ask and I would just say, Well, that is my mom. Well, that's not your real mom. Well, to me it was. I didn't even really know what that meant, so I would just say, Well, yes, it is. My mom would never discount that I was adopted, but never say there was someone else out there either. We were real family. I had a little bit of that, but I also was lucky enough that everybody that I came in contact with early in life was very accepting. The person who did my daycare one of the days my grandma couldn't have a daughter my age and we're still very good friends today and raising our kids as friends.
My cousins have always been extremely close to me and never saw a difference. Like I said, two of them are half-Turkish, so they look not American either as little kids. There's been people who have asked, but we never lie about the issue. I was adopted. And so it hasn't really faced… It hasn't made any challenges for me that haven't been easy to face. I think that's where the difference between me and my sister is that she was maybe not as strong of a personality, not to be mean, but not as intelligent. So she took some of those comments as personal insults, and at a very young age already started to question, Why do I not look like you? Why do I not fit in? So and so says this. You could see that it really started to eat at her and eventually turned into many teenage problems and eventually running away and drugs and all those kinds of things. But it was because she couldn't really wrap her head around the fact that she was given up for adoption and what happened to my real parents, why she didn't have a dad growing up. That was tougher for her than for me.
I was like, Oh, whatever. Then really just fitting in. I think she always felt like she really didn't fit in. I never felt that because I was so close to my grandma, so close to my mom. I had a close-knit group of friends. High school was easy because I went to a big school where there was a lot of people to meet up with and join sports teams with. I have never pictured myself as different, so that's probably why those challenges were not as huge to me as they are to other people.
And it could go all the way back, like when I interviewed my cousin, Barb, even in the epigenetics or the relinquishment, the abandonment, that type of thing. Her situation could have been so much more different than you, and being how tiny and non-viable you were, but then you were cared for and you were cared deeply for because they had to in order to have you survive, where it could have been a whole different situation for your sister, which we know can impact. And there's a lot of trauma-informed, therapeutic approaches now that I know that they're using for adoptions and that type of thing.
Which I think is wonderful because those didn't exist 20 years ago or 30 years ago when she was that age and probably could have benefited from some of that. My mom did try to find psychologists and things like that, but international adoption really got popular about 10 years after me when we started doing international adoptions with China. And even Russia was a big thing in the '90s, so it really got more popular. But back in the '80s, there just was not a lot of that yet. Especially being in Minnesota, fairly white communities, it was obvious if you didn't look like a lot of the people around you and there just wasn't a lot of, to your point, resources for help. Some people did struggle. I just never really thought of myself as different.
So.
They kid on I'm the blondest Indian when I got my job at 20 years ago now because there were a lot of Indian developers there who were culturally Indian and they ate the food and they spoke the language and they would all go to dinner every day and they would never ask me. I was like, Why? They never asked me. They would ask some of my friends who were not Indian but were friends with them. I finally said, Derek, why do they never ask me to go to dinner? He was like, Well, they're afraid of you because they call you the blonde Indian. They don't know how to accept somebody who looks like you but is not like them. I'm like, Oh, okay.
Interesting. Interesting.
Yeah. I've just always identified, to be honest, as white.
Yeah. It's not a dis on your cultural aspects, but it's just that this is all that you know, is that you grew up in this Scandinavian heritage- Catholic family. -family. I think we can probably surmise from what we just talked about. The gifts are your life. You were loved deeply given all the opportunities that had you not been given that you most likely would not have survived. When you're talking 40 years ago, a 1.2-pound baby in the streets of Calcutta, and yes, they had medical care and that type of thing, but even in Western medicine here, a lot of those children would not survive at that age or have really significant health challenges and all of that where you really don't.
No, it's been amazing. I have friends who have had premature babies in this country and they have problems with their eyes. It's one of the biggest things with the eyes or the lungs. I guess as a younger child, I got pneumonia fairly often, but I think that's pretty much… I don't get all that often anymore. I still don't wear glasses at 41. A lot of the things that they say premies have challenges with have never impacted me. I do credit that to probably the one-on-one care that was given and obviously great good care because it is a third world country today yet. Definitely, 40 years ago was not advanced at all.
I'm thinking about this, and you and I have talked… Leah and I talk a lot. We spend evenings just solving- Wrapping things up. -solving all the world problems and watching Netflix. But defining you as who you are today, what would you say because of your birth story, your adoption story, how has that defined you as a woman, 40-year-old woman today?
The funny part is I actually don't think it defined me. I do not think of it as a defining moment. However you come into this world, hopefully it is to a loving family. Not always, though. You are who you are, I think. Some of that is your personality, God chose to give you. Some of it is nature versus nurture first. Nurture plays into it, but I have never been defined by it. It is a fact, right? I was adopted. I did not look like my family. It really has not defined me. I think the struggle has been not knowing some of the background, so there is no health information. We did not come with health information because obviously you were abandoned, so you didn't have that anyway. Some of the things that if you have historical information you can plan for, you can, from a medical perspective, have tests run or check as potential issues down the road we don't have. I think that's been a little bit more of a challenge just because you don't really know what you might be predisposed to have. You don't know necessarily what to plan for. But I don't think that there have been any huge challenges in my life.
I was able to be educated to your point and find jobs fairly easily. In fact, maybe the color of my skin has helped in some of that. Obviously, it just to me has not been a defining moment. It has been more of a part of my story, and I'm proud of it. I'm proud of the fact that I was adopted. I don't think of my mother as anything less than my mother. I've never thought of her as like adopted mom or a second mom or anything like that. It's the mom that I had. Unfortunately, she didn't live as long as I would have liked, but it was exactly the story that it was meant to be. I did not say that I have a lot of challenges from it or it hasn't defined me in a bad way at all.
What I see just knowing you is probably the biggest thing was when you're going to have your first baby, and it was like, Am I going to be able to connect with this child? Because I've never had that. I don't have that psychological, emotional, maternal. I don't have any of that. And am I going to be able to love this child because I don't have... I had it from my mom and the family, but that was one of your questions. And so tell us what having... You're now going on your third child coming soon, but what has that done for you and changed even in the way that I don't even know if it's a thinking or in your heart. What has changed you?
Absolutely. That's a great question. It is true what Pat was saying. I was always under the assumption that maternal instinct was something that you just were born with, and maybe because I wasn't attached right away to my mother, so the whole idea of breastfeeding and anything like that was not part of my life, maybe I missed that because I didn't even want children. For the longest time, it was not on my radar. A career was on my radar, making money was on my radar. Anything around success was on my radar, but having children was nothing I really ever wanted. I felt like maybe I didn't have that maternal instinct. Maybe it wasn't something that I was called to do really. Even after we got married, I was 36 when we got married, and it wasn't necessarily a thing that I even thought would be possible because of my age. I am much smaller in stature, so I have been told it may have been harder to carry a baby, all these things. I thought, Well, if it happens, great. If not, that is not a big deal to me. I'm not going to cry over not having a child.
Then we did have one miscarriage and thought, Well, it's just not supposed to be. I didn't even try and ended up pregnant with Grace. I will tell you that I didn't think I could ever love something as much as I loved Grace. I mean, that child, and I think partially, and I tried to explain this once to my husband, who can be a little bit less nurturing than I sometimes would like, I said, I think it's partly because it's the only person in the world I am related to that I know. I did the whole ancestry, DNA thing. It came back with no results. I've never been genetically the same or related to anybody. Then here's this baby, and she was perfect. She was the most adorable, still is an adorable child. And it changed me inside. Something that I can't even tell you because I didn't think I wanted children. I didn't think I'd be a grader. I didn't really necessarily want two or three or however many God will let us have. But once I saw Grace, it was like, not only is she related to me, but I made this. This little thing is mine, and it's not just that she had no health problems.
There was nothing. My pregnancy was easy with her. I had a C-section because of my size, but it was very easy and I recovered quickly. She's just been like my little sidekick forever, my little buddy. To this day, I still sleep with her because of that. But she literally is probably the closest thing I have to perfect. She's perfect, and she's just perfect, and she's just to me. There was no way I couldn't love her. All those worries that I had, all those thoughts of, Oh, will I be able to do it? Well, do I have the DNA to be able to do this? Absolutely. It just comes to you. I think most moms will tell you that you don't understand that love until you have your own child. But it is absolutely true that it changes you completely. Then once I had Grace, it was like, Well, if we get pregnant again and I was approaching 40, it'll happen and it'll be great. It was. Laney was equally as wonderful, a little bit more of a complex pregnancy, but just you couldn't have asked for better. Then surprisingly, at 41, here I am pregnant again, and this is the easiest of all of them so far, so I'm sure it's going to be an adorable little boy.
But now I don't worry at all because it's just like you will find a way to do what you do. I think that's a mother. I don't think that has anything to do with how you got your baby because my mom obviously didn't carry but felt the call and was a great mother. Everybody, his kids, like I said, I hear they are changed forever by those children. You see it more in moms than dads because dads don't have that old carrying for nine months and all of that. I think it is really just an instinct that once you see that baby, you're bound to it. But it has been just a miraculous thing for me because of the whole I'm actually related to two people on this earth now, soon to be three. Funny thing there is for a long time, Grace did not like me. She actually looked a lot more like Trevor. She is still very fair-skinned. They all are light brown hair. In fact, it's almost turning golden blonde. People would not necessarily peg me as her mother. Even one time I was picking her up as an infant from daycare, and you fingerprint in so you don't have to stop and talk to anyone.
You get in, you get their car seats. I have the car seat. I go into the infant room to pick her up. All of a sudden, this door is locked and this person staring at me. I'm like, Huh? Pretty soon the director of the facility walks in, goes over to the person, What's wrong? Somebody's trying to steal Grace. She looks, she goes, No, that's Grace's mother. I must not have done pick-up enough times to be on this person's radar. But it offended me. Actually, I have to say it was offensive because I grew up not looking like my mom, and no one ever questioned it. I suppose, partly the times we didn't have locking doors and all that, but no one ever questioned that I was 10 Shades Daugther and my hair was black and everything else. Then here it is my own child, and you're questioning whether I should be walking out the door with her. But it has really just almost brought my family completely other. I wish my family was here. Like I said, my mom's gone, my grandparents are gone. So all of the people that I wish could have met Grace are not here, but I know they're seeing her from above, and they would just be thrilled because it finally brought full circle.
I came into their life for a reason. Grace came into mine, and now it's this perfect circle of love.
Yeah, and that's really what it's all about. It really is about the act of love, the emotion of love, the energy of love. As you said, your mother, absolutely, her heart was blown wide open with you and your sister, and that there was never a question that she was not your mother. I think you really are one of the fortunate ones. I don't know, maybe you're questioning of you did the ancestor DNA, nothing came back. But it's like you're pretty pragmatic about that. Maybe that is because you just know there's no way for me to ever know, so I need to accept the fact that this is my family. This is my family. I can't be searching where a lot of people really are looking to search. They do. A lot of the people that I have interviewed on this discussion have that.
I think the one thing you brought up, and it probably has defined me and maybe not the best day in the world either, but I look at life very black and white. There is not a lot of emotion in anything. I don't get real happy about a lot of things. I don't get real sad about a lot of things. It's just in the middle. There's not a lot of gray. It should either be this way or this way. That goes for how you clean your house versus how you raise your kid. To me, there's just not a lot of gray in anything or emotion in anything. Some people have often said you never seem that thrilled and you never seem that sad, or you don't cry about these events and you don't… I can't explain that to you because I do feel things. It's not that I'm one of those people that has a mental condition where they don't feel things, but it never really goes that deep. It's like, okay, so now you're faced with this. What are you going to do? For me, it's like figure out the best way to move on, what's the most reasonable, pragmatic, logical way to move on, and you don't dwell on things.
Some people would call that callous or emotionally scarred or whatever, but it just was… I think even when my mom died, it was horribly tragic. She was only 60 years old. I was 26. It should never have happened. It was diabetes that went completely wrong. I think over the nine months that she was in the hospital, I definitely had time to process what we knew was coming, unfortunately, and the fact that it was her choice to go on hospice and call it. She was very fine with dying and understood heaven was a real place. It was not scary for her, so it wasn't scary for me. But it really was never one of those things I really didn't cry for her. My grandma and I just became even closer than we already were because she lost a daughter. I lost a mother. We were both buddies. It just was one of those things many people get stuck. Of course, there are times I think there are said moments where you wish she was here the night before our wedding, of course, having these things that you wish she were part of. But then logically, I say she is part of them.
I don't believe they're that far gone. She is seeing it just in a little bit different view. I feel like that emotional part for me has and maybe it does come from adoption. Maybe it's just my personality is cold, but whatever it is, I just don't really feel a lot and-.
Well, knowing you, I would never call you as cold because you do seek out in your very relationship-oriented, and that is really important to you. But you are like, I'm pragmatic. This is just the way it is. Let's not get overly emotional over this. We don't know. It could have come from abandonment. It could have been your survivalist instinct. You could be just a case study for all of that, but you just don't know. But you're one that it's like, this is the way it is. I would say the most emotion that I have ever seen in you is with your children. That is where true joy, it's not contained. It's absolute true joy when you are with your children because that just speaks right to your heart, which is so beautiful. Before we close on this, because you just shared so much, and I think we're going to have this live panel discussion in early November just so that people can ask questions and that type of thing. What I really gained from talking with you is the abandonment is not always there forefront. Everybody has a different experience from interviewing everybody. Everybody has a different experience.
Some are more pragmatic than others. Others are always seeking, which is okay. We're learning how to do things better. There are lots of assistants out there. As your sister-in-law, my daughter-in-law, Kate, works in social services and adopted our little Rosie. We know that there's lots of really cool things out there to help support the family and the adoptive one. But it's not always necessary. You grew up, and even though some may call them challenges, you don't call them challenges. It's just like it is what it is. We're going to move forward in life, and I'm going to live my life in the best way that I know it to be and embrace it because you know that relationships, they can be tentative. I believe you came into your mom's life for that period of time just so that she could have that absolute joy and love of being able to give love and receive it. So if you had one thing that you would like to tell the audience, just a piece of wisdom for those who are adopted or are the adoptive family, what might that one nugget be?
I think that adoption is beautiful. I think it is a calling for the person that's doing the adopting and then the one that got adopted. I don't think anyone should ever feel bad about it. I don't think anyone should ever question if it's for them, if they felt called to do it, they should. But I think for the adoptee to try and not label yourself as different is going to be the biggest thing because you will find that you'll fit in just how you were supposed to. Sometimes people who are biologically related have challenges that make them not fit into certain things or even feel like they're part of their family at times. If you just let it unfold and don't dwell on that, I think life will be not that it won't have challenges, but that it will be just fine because it is, at the end of the day, I believe God writing a story the way he was to be. He puts people, he sends babies down. I believe all of that is planned long before we come here, and we really have no say in any of that. If you would just not worry about what others are going to think or how it's going to impact you and not dwell on that, but look to the future, I think you'll be much better off because the future is whatever you want it to be.
Your story and how you got here is just the beginning, but the old analogy of you write each chapter you do, and it's totally up to you on how you're going to write that chapter.
Wonderful. If you're struggling with writing the chapter, there are people out there that can.
Support you. Again, like you said, lots of help out there. A last funny story, but sometimes the things we don't… At my wedding, there was no parents there, so my uncle, thealtu, who came over from Turkey in 1982 as well, walked me down the aisle. People afterwards who didn't know me real well or weren't from my side of the family said, Oh, he looks a lot like you. You have the same nose. Well, Aaltu and I are not genetically related either, but he was meant to be there because all through life we had darker skin, we do look similar. All the way through marriage, he was the one that we've always been very close and like confidants. If you look for those people, it doesn't necessarily mean you're related to him, but if you look for people who are going to support that journey, you will find them and they will be there to walk with you.
Absolutely. You and I were just talking. I was talking about the breathe coaching model for grief that I train people to be certified grief coaches. But it's like now it's time to take a look at how do we tailor that for adopted families or people who have been adopted who might be struggling and just want to really walk that path to have a happy and fulfilled life? And maybe they're feeling a little stuck because we know that there's lots of tools. And again, there's trauma-informed therapeutic approaches through psychologists that are super important because not everybody was taken right, was brought into a family right at birth. Some kids are going through the foster system and the foster to adopt. And so there's all those transitions and abandonments and all of that type of thing. So there are so many people out there and finding your tribe. Like you said, finding out all two is one of your tribe.
And accepting the things that made you. I mean, one of the things people kid about all the time is my love for bleach and cleaning, but I really think that was something from being born in an institutional facility or basically born. Probably, especially with those small babies that had to be kept clean and bleached and whatever, so that embracing the things that people call quirks, but that really is who you are. That's not anything to be ashamed of. You love the smell of bleach, then use it in your house or whatever the case may be. I really hate the idea of ever going back to India. People find that weird, but I don't associate with India as anything other than if it was the malls or something beautiful and it'd be trying to go to, but otherwise a part of my history. So embrace what you want to embrace, let the other stuff go, and then really accept the rest of it because it is who you are and it's part of your story. Like you said, whether it's fostering, whether it's placement of an international adoption, whatever it is, it's not maybe the ideal or not the thing people think of when they think of family, but it's the way families are created, so embrace it.
I love it. Well, thank you so much, Leah, and for everybody else. Again, with this, we'll have a link to sign up and come and visit us. We're just going to come together as a little family so people can ask questions, feel whatever the case may be, so that we can have a live panel discussion. Because we know that there's lots of beliefs, lots of twists and turns, and lots of ideas on how to really move forward and allowing that grief that a lot of people feel through the adoption process to really coincide with the great gratitude and the gifts that come from it. So thank you. Thank you.
I love what you're doing, and I love that your family is made up of so many amazing stories that come together to be a family now.
Me too. Okay, we'll talk to you later.
Bye-bye. Bye.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
In this interview with Tim Mackey, we get yet another perspective on adoption. Tim was relinquished at birth spending 6 months in an orphanage setting before being adopted by his parents. It wasn’t until an ancestry DNA test led him to his birth family in his early 50’s.
Tim shares his thoughts on how to one should prepare themselves mentally if they choose to reach out and connect with their birth family.
Shownote:
Welcome again to this episode for Healing Family Grief on Adoption, where we believe that grief and gratitude can coexist. In this interview with Tim Mackie, we get yet another perspective on adoption. Tim was relinquished at birth, spending his first six months in an orphanage setting before being adopted by his parents. It wasn't until an ancestry DNA test led him to his birth family in his early 50s. Tim shares his thoughts on how one should really prepare themselves mentally if they choose to reach out and connect with their birth family so that however that goes, whether they're fully embraced or there is resistance to meeting, that the adoptee can walk away feeling secure and as whole as possible and not have unexpected trauma occur when things don't go the way that they really think that they should go. It's a wonderful interview. Please take a listen. If you do enjoy this show, please hit the like and subscribe button.
That way we know if this is interesting information for you, you can leave us some questions. We'll be really thrilled to answer those questions and be on the lookout in early November for a live group chat about all that we've talked about in this series. Enjoy and I hope you have a wonderful day.
Hello, everybody. Once again, I am so excited to be here and to be able to share some stories from my family members with this whole piece that we're doing on adoption and where grief and gratitude really can coexist together. We know that there's a lot of both within this. Tim Mackey happens to be my brother-in-law, who we've got to meet each other. I don't even know how many years ago it was. It hasn't been super long, but we're just so happy that Tim found this part of the family and that we have this new member. Tim has an adoption story, and so we're just going to move forward with that. He's going to share a little bit about himself, and we'll ask some questions. Welcome, my friend, my brother.
Hello. Thanks for the invite. Glad to be here. Thank you.
What I'd like to do is just start out a little bit about your story. A little bit about maybe what you've heard, what you haven't heard, but your story of being adoptee in a family.
Yeah. I was born in Santa Clara, California, in 1968, and I was adopted when I was about six months old to Mark and Betty, Mackie, and they moved to Seattle, to Chicago, back to Seattle, where I started high school and finished college and got married, and now I settled in. My sister, I actually have a sister one year younger than I am and a brother two years, and all three of us are adopted. My mom and dad wanted to have adopted kids, but she bought a DNA test about four years ago, and just on a whim, I decided to take it. Lo and behold, I found out that I had a half brother that had just taken it. I reached out to them, to Ken, Matt's husband, and then everything just happened pretty quick after that. I went from being the oldest of three to the youngest of five in just less than a week, I would say. When I found out this... I'd always searched as a kid, not really putting too much effort into it, but just curious more than anything else. The reason is my adoption papers said that I was Cherokee and Blackfoot, and so I wanted to learn a little bit about tribal enrollment, if that was a possibility or anything along those lines.
And so it was not really too hard at all. At about the age of 40, I just said, I'm happy. Both my parents love me and I'm happy where I'm at. And then my sister, I took the test and then met Ken. And so it was interesting in that the whole time I didn't walk into it with any assumptions or expectations. And I think that's really the key for anybody that is looking for or that has found their adopted parents or whatever is you come into it with the ability just to walk away without it affecting you or having any remorse or anger or upset. That's how I approached coming into it. When I met with Ken and my brother and mom at their house in Arizona, of course, that trip down Friday, I was shaking like a leaf and then Saturday morning, really nervous. The hour and a half drive to the house was really… I probably turned around about 10 times just because I was nervous. Then saying to myself, Hey, if this doesn't work out, you're in a good spot with your life and where you're at, it's okay. That made it easier to make that trip.
Then walking out and meeting the family. Ken, we had talked a couple of times on the phone, and he just came over and gave me a great big hug and Billy as well. We talked for a little bit and went in and met my mom. That was just like looking in a mirror. I still remember everything about that with Joyce. She said, I've been wondering how long or how you've been doing forever. I think she was really happy to find out that her son was in a good place. We've visited for a couple of hours that day and I got a chance to spend some good time with Ken and Billy. Everyone was welcomed to the family. In that regard, it was really easy then to do the next things and do trips to meet people and know the extended family. At the same time, like my sister, she met her family and it was a complete opposite story. She's had the opposite, so it's been a lot harder for her than me. But I think coming into it, not expecting anything, and the willingness to walk away is really, really important. If you put too much into it, who knows how it's going to go?
So you have to be able to walk away. I told everybody that at the start. So you don't know me, I don't know you. If this causes any upset or hard feelings, then I'm done and I'll just back out. And everyone was, No, we want to meet you. And in that regards, it worked out really well. But if one person had said, No, this is too upsetting. I would have just said, okay, that's fine. Here's my address if you ever want to get in touch, you won't hear from me again. That was just my approach to it.
I know that Ken, and as Tim mentioned, is my husband. It was like, wow, it was a whirlwind. There was a lot of excitement, but again, a lot of questions and the story behind it all. But the beautiful thing is, well, Kim, I will always say, you got the great end of the deal because the family was very poor and education was not something that was really sought after and had a pretty rough environment from what my husband has shared with me and probably with you.
The other thing that was interesting is I didn't talk directly with my brother. When I found out I had a brother, I reached out to you.
Yes.
We had dialog a little bit before we even approached Ken just to make sure that it wasn't going to be too upsetting because here we are at 52 years old. I'm 52, and I think Ken is nine years older than I am or so. But all of a sudden, there's a new person in the family, and they had never known that I was up for adoption or that their mom was pregnant because they were too little at that point. Then how it came about, I didn't want any bad feelings from that either. I don't think there was. I think the family was surprised that my mom had given birth that they didn't know. She never told them. That's why it was really important for me just to talk with Pat first, with you first before reaching your husband and to make sure that that would even be okay. I thought that was important too.
Yeah. It's just been a joy. You two get along just the whole family. Just to let everybody know, Tim's birth mom, my mother-in-law, died in the fall last year, so it's just been a year. But I feel knowing what I... Working with grief and working with so many people, I knew once I found out that you had been on her mind every single day of her life. Because any parent, that's what's going to happen, especially moms. It's like thinking about that child and what a gift that mom, Sheveland, got to meet you. Yeah, I think so. That you have this relationship because what a weight off of her heart, always wondering what happened with you and did you do the right thing? Because relinquishment is not something that anybody takes lightly, whatsoever that bond.
I think that they probably really struggled with it. But I'm happy with the way that things had worked out. I don't think it... I don't know. I think there should be some hoops and hurdles in finding your birth parents if that's of interest to you. But I think maybe had known maybe when I was 30 or 25 or so might be a little bit different than at the end of life because I only got to know her for a year and a half or so before she passed away or two years. But it may be nice to maybe have a little bit better long term relationship with her.
Yeah. As you talked about you were adopted into this family, your siblings were also this is like parents that really wanted to have a family and bringing in children that could use love and great home and all of that. What would you say are the gifts that you see having been one of the chosen ones?
Well, I think that my mom and dad, my adopted parents have given me, I think, a lot more opportunity in regards to education and studying and going to school and being a full citizen and I think, than if I had stayed and they were struggling. In that regard, I think Joyce made... She knew that it was the right call, not certainly easy to do, but she knew that that was right. My parents had both prayed for they wanted to adopt a native child and so it worked out great for them to have the opportunity. I feel really blessed that my parents raised me the way that they did. I told Ken and Billy when I met them, the state of Arizona is probably really happy that we didn't grow up together. I could see us getting into some big trouble as kids, that's for sure. But the family bond in the Sheveland side seems pretty strong too. So having that sense of family is good. Just the opportunity that adoption gives you, I think, is one that I'm most grateful for.
What would you say the challenges? You talked like when you were younger and you were interested in maybe getting to know a little bit more about your heritage and the cultural aspects. But what would you say are some of the challenges from being the chosen one, if there are any?
Well, I think the biggest issue was I don't look at all like my mom and dad. And my sister, she does a little bit, and then my younger brother was half black and half white. So we didn't look at all like my two white parents. And so that was always something... You get those funny looks from people and stuff like that. But as you get a little bit older, it's like, Oh, whatever, who cares? And then it was always, Well, what are you? It's the question I was asked all the time. And I would just have to look at the adoption papers that said you're Indian and Norwegian. So that's that piece.
A Norwindian.
Norwindian. I have the blue eyes of Norwegian and the hairline of Norwegian. I wish it was the other way around. So it was interesting. I don't really look like either side. I'm in the middle on both sides. I think that was probably the weirdest thing growing up is answering the question, well, what are you?
What's your heritage? Yeah, from that perspective, yeah.
But it's funny because I think Ken, Billy, and I look a lot alike in some regards. We all have mom's features, I think.
You are an image of your mother, your birthmother.
Probably the five kids, I would say, I look the most like her, that's for sure.
Absolutely. When you first sent me a picture and all of a sudden, I have a picture of her when she was young, probably in her 20s or 30s, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, they're identical. That's got to be a weird feeling too. All of a sudden, like you said, you met her and it was like looking in a mirror.
Yeah. I don't think I'd say weird. It was just like, Wow! You feel a sense, maybe a hole. You're always wondering, What does my mom look like? What is she? That was really nice to see. Even if I had never met her, I was just glad to see a picture. I think that would have been a great ending point for me too. But having met her, and that was really nice as well.
It feels like almost like it's almost like a psychological sense of belongingness when you can finally see your birth, family, and some of those similarities. I interviewed my cousin, and when she got married, she found her birth family and had eight siblings. But how she looked so much like her one sister, I remember that at the wedding, and it was just like, Wow. Because I never thought of her as adopted. I never thought of her as that. But for her, that was really important too. We did talk about in the interview with her, just the fact that there's a lot of studies coming out now in regards to the interracial and multiracial and going into families where it's a white family, Caucasian and not a person of color in this family. There's some studies out there like what does that do? The other thing that she had mentioned, which I had never thought about, was how sometimes kids will tease other kids like, Oh, you're adopted. You look like this, and you were adopted. She said it was almost like, is that a bad thing as a kid? There's a lot of different things that I don't know if any of that really occurred for you.
You have the ability to find sight. I think the goal in adoption is not that they're with somebody of the same color, but it's with someone who's going to instill certain values. I think that having a mom and dad in the house is the best way to raise kids, in my opinion. Then having my mom stayed at home all the way through high school, and so that was great as well. Then just the family values that were instilled in me, I think that's the goal. If we're having a kid being adopted more than whatever race they're with, because in the end, we should see past that.
Yeah
Focus on family, focus on education, focus on hard work, those are values, I think, any kid, no matter what background they come from, if that's where they're adopted into, is going to be successful. But I think we've done a real disservice, especially in the native community, because we've made it a priority to get kids adopted by native. I don't think sometimes that the families are that intact or in the best situation to adopt. I would rather have a kid be adopted in a place that's going to instill values and help raise a good citizen. That's the key.
I appreciate that. I really do.
The other thing I think in regards to... That was exciting is once you answer that question, Who am I? And you can talk to your mom about it. One of my earlier things I mentioned was being enrolled and so being able to talk to her about tribal stuff. She was not enrolled, but the paperwork she had on all so that we could get enrolled. I took that on to get that process going and fill out all the paperwork. I was really happy that Ken and my sister, Mary and Billy, all went down to North Carolina and enrolled. That was a really happy day for me. Then knowing that both of my kids are enrolled now too. Whatever happens from now on, my family can always say, I know where we come from. I know our family. That was really important to me.
You really brought that together because that's something... Ken and I have been married 30 years. Been together over 30 years. That was always something that he wanted that sense of belongingness there. But it was just like it was just a very difficult thing for them, and you brought it all together and made it happen as a family, which just made you super happy. But my husband is just so happy and so proud because it's his heritage. It really is that piece of his history, his mom's history, that we all important stuff. It's just finding that.
I think it was important for my brother, because he lives on the reservation, to be able to say, Hey, I have my tribal card too, instead of being the outsider a. Little bit.
Yeah, where you had to live just outside the parameter of the reservation versus on the tribal lands. Right.
Yeah.
Very important.
And being two-toned like I am, I get even in the Indian community, people are like, and I can now say, There you go. I'm really happy that I did it. I'm really happy that I did it. I'm glad for my kids and I hope that they stay up on their tribal stuff and that they enroll their kids and that's something that's passed down from the work that we did. So it's good.
Yeah, that was a beautiful thing. I know that Ken definitely is so happy to now have been enrolled in his 60s. Powerful, powerful stuff because there is that sense of belongingness there too. Yeah.
There's probably nothing that I'll ever seek out from the tribe. I mean, Jeez, I'm 55. I've done just fine for myself. There's nothing that I can gain, I think, maybe from it, but it's just that sense of belonging or that's my history. That to me is helpful. But if it helps my kids out or their kids, then that's even because they're young and getting started, that's good. But for me, it's just that belonging sense.
More than anything. Yeah, I agree. Is there anything that you would say you wish could have been different in your story? Or do you feel like this really, it all played out the way that it was supposed to play out?
I think I lightly touched on it, but I get why it's a little bit difficult because there's probably a lot that aren't interested. It shouldn't be easy for someone just to say, surprise, 40 years later, when that person has their whole life together. I'm going back and forth on that. I just got really lucky because you guys, I think, had just taken the test a couple of weeks before. That was really lucky. Maybe the DNA is the approach that is easiest for everybody. You have to volunteer to do it. If you don't, then you're not on there. That might be one thing.
I thought maybe like with ancestor or whatever they should also have an arm of some therapist available because there could be some real, like you said, with your sister or something like that, to just have someone that can help when things don't go exactly right, or it's such a shocker, or there's some family dynamics. We had ours. When the story starts unfolding, it was like, Whoa, but everybody here was just like, This is cool. We're just so happy that you're a part of it, and Emily and your family is a part of that.
I wanted to step up. That's an interesting piece because not only is it tough, I think, on the birth mom, but in my situation where there's a different dad, that it can create a lot of hardships. That was the reason I didn't reach out immediately to Joyce or Ken, because I'm sure there's some backstory there that it was better to go through you for a while until things got settled down and people were willing to reach out.
One of the things that you said that just hit me very powerfully is the goal is not about color. It's not about nationality. It's not anything. It's about instilling values. I know because I know you and Emily, and just that is something that really seems to be one of the greatest gifts your parents gave you, is really the values and being able to pay that forward with your children. You do a lot of work with schools, and coaching, and different things like that, just paying that forward. What a gift, that you may not probably wouldn't have necessarily had staying with the birth family, because we know that there was some rough stuff going on there and it wasn't bad, good or indifferent. It's just that it was a different life.
Yeah. Well, I'm not judging at all the situations that while I was adopted, that's just way it was. I'm certainly glad for Joyce. I know it probably wasn't easy, and I'm also very happy that I was adopted too.
Yeah. That's a both-and. It's a both-and. That's part of why I wanted to do this little bit of a series, is to just be available for people to hear it so that they don't, Oh, I'm not alone, or My thoughts about this, I'm not alone in that thought. But everybody has different viewpoints on this too, right? Yeah. That's the power of who we are, is to be able to look at things with different lenses. But I appreciate that you talked about going in without preconceived notions of how it's going to turn out, because that's just a healthy balance with abandonment, relinquishment, whatever. There probably is that little bit of abandonment still simmering in there. All of a sudden, if you're being like, we really don't even want to talk about it in the family, now we just really don't want to meet with you, that I think could just layer on some real angst in the person who's adopted.
If your core is good, then it won't affect you. But if you have other issues or you're having these troubles going into it, then it's probably going to affect you a lot more. But if you've got your base established on who you are and what you're doing and who your family is, then the other stuff. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. You have to be able to back away. But if you have any chinks in the armor on who you are, then I think that would probably develop those things.
Yeah, and you are. You're very solid in who you are. You have a real knowing and a real core in your values and who you are. It wasn't about necessarily the birth stuff or who you are, the solid soul within yourself is very solid, and that was nurtured. It was nurtured with your parents that raised you, and that's where I think that's the gift of adoption. I talked to my daughter-in-law, Caitlin, and did her interview earlier today, and she works in social services. I said, How many... We know that we want to try to keep... In society, you want to try to keep kids with their birth families, if at all possible. But I said, What's the ratio that you see? She said it's 50-50, because 50% of them really do need to get into a home that's safe, that's nurturing. With all the people that they work with, it's a 50% chance whether staying with the birth family is really the healthiest and in the best interest of the child. That's what we need to remember, that it is about the child. A lot of times, emotions and egos and different things like that may get into the way, politics, all of that stuff.
I think for me, it's always been about the child. Always the child first. Always first.
It's funny. I think we've made adoption too difficult. It's thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and legal fees and blah, blah, blah to adopt the kid. I have upstairs in my safe a letter or the court order. It's one page, double-spaced, about 10 or 15 sentences that says, Now for the sum of $350, my mom and dad adopt me and then signed by the judge and signed by me. That was it. There wasn't this big, long, drawn-out process. It was 350 bucks to take this kid. I think that if we have kids languishing in multiple foster situations over and over in different room, each night or different places, we've got to make adoption so much. There's so many people that want to adopt kids that just find the whole process overwhelming, and it should be a lot easier to adopt kids because the alternative is horrible.
Yeah. Every week, every day, every week, every month that goes by, it really is doing a number on that child's stability, their emotional stability, their health, all of those different things. Good intention, but if you don't have that core stability, so that's very very difficult, and we know that. What I like to ask is, what's one thing that you would just like to leave the people that are watching this with? You've given some really good thoughts to this, but what's one piece of tim wisdom that you would just like to-.
Well, I think finding your birth family or birth mom is a worthwhile endeavor, and I would encourage people that are interested to do it. However, you've got to be able to cut bait and keep fishing. So if there's any chance that you're going to upset somebody or upset the other family or cause drama or trigger somebody, it's best just to close the book and be happy with where you're at and what you've created in your life. It seems to me that the people really push, really push, and then thats those are the ones that get into situations. You have to be able to go slow. If it doesn't work or you're getting some pushback, then you fold the book and you walk away.
That's beautiful. A hard one for a lot of people. We've unfathom, but it is.It's wisdom.
Who said life is fair? That's just what it is. That's what it is. Don't create drama for other people. Just go in there. And if it works like it did with my family, it works out great. If it doesn't with like my sister, then it's something you have to be able to walk away from.
Yeah, and have a support and if you have a support of, I call it a tribe, but you have that support. I think anchoring into support before you probably even take those steps is really, really important and talk to some of these things.
That's a key piece. Your adopted parents are certainly your biggest pillars. And so... I talked to my dad. My mom had passed away but I talked to my dad quite a bit about the whole process and asked him if he was okay with this and told him the whole story all along. There was no surprises. I told him that I loved him and that this doesn't replace what you've done. It's just searching and looking for these things. He was okay with all that stuff. I would really recommend that you keep your adopted family involved in the whole process as well. Because I think truly, they would want you to feel that sense of the circle is closed. I don't think there's too many that would say, No, you're just mine. I think if a person is willing to adopt you, they want the best for you. I think that that would be something that most adopted parents would say, Yeah, just what can we do to help? My job was to fill them in on everything and making sure that they knew what was going on, that they weren't being replaced or any of that stuff.
Well, the word that's coming to me is honor. Honor- Yeah, honor your parents. -everyone who is part of this equation, this journey, and doing it with honor, honoring yourself first and foremost, but then honoring the people that are so important to you, and letting them know that this is love, and that love is not going to go away. It's a critical piece here, but it's honoring and remember to do it with honor. As a coach and a grief coach, because grief does show up in some of these places here, is find your tribe. If you don't have it in your family unit, find a couple of people that you can really talk through with this before you take the steps, and just really be able to so you can think clearly about what might this look like, and what are your expectations? Because having unfulfilled expectations can be a huge downer, and shake up the psyche a little bit. But just to... That's what I would encourage people, is reach out and find someone they can really talk to. But definitely if you can have the conversation with your family, the family that is your family.
As Caitlin said, there's not a label for love, so family is not a label. It's about the community of where we're raised, and who we're with. There's the extended, there's birth, there's all of that. But just really talk to the people that are involved and do it with honor for yourself and for them.
Yeah, honor your mother and father.
Absolutely.
One of the 10 commandments.
Core principles. Well, thank you so much, Tim. I really appreciate you. We love you. You know that.
Okay.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
PART TWO: Adoption: Where Grief and Gratitude Co-Exist. An Interview with Caitlin Sheveland
Welcome back to our next interview in our series of Adoption: Where Grief and Gratitude can Co-Exist. In this interview with Caitlin Sheveland, we hear the story of what propelled her and her family into the world of foster care and adoption, ultimately bringing Caitlin into a soul purpose, a life purpose of serving children and their families in a formal social services role. She is a spit-fire and she makes things happen and it really totally changed her life and transformed her life and all those she served. She is the epitome of advocacy for ensuring a child's welfare always comes first through a safe and nurturing home environment whether that be with their birth family, a foster family, or a forever home as a chosen child for a family and she knows all about this intimately in her own lived experience and also her work in the social services. Please enjoy the show and if it appeals to you hit the like or the subscribe button, that's helpful for us to know what really is impacting for our listeners out there, and feel free to leave a comment. We are interested in hearing your comments and questions regarding this series. Thank you so much and I hope you really enjoy this interview with Caitlin Sheveland.
PLEASE JOIN US ON SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 5 AT 8:00 PM US ET FOR OUR LIVE PANEL DISCUSSION WITH THE INTERVIEWEES ON ZOOM. A GREAT PLACE TO DISCUSS ALL THINGS ADOPTION! LINK TO SIGN UP: https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZUodOyrrTIiGdZsTVPWCouBCdsDPQO5w4t3 I hope you enjoy the episode and if you do, please hit the like and subscribe button so you can help us continue to do what we do over here in the Healing Family Grief community.
Shownotes:
Hi there, everybody. I am so excited because here is another one of our great interviews in regards to adoption. We have the International Adoption Day that's coming up in November. And as I said in my little preview to everybody, I am interviewing family members because we've had a lot of family members who have been involved in adoption. And today I am talking with Caitlin. Caitlin is my daughter-in-law who I just adore and love so deeply. She and I really have that hard space for children. We're going to talk a little bit about the story of what really got Caitlin and her family really involved. Our son, Tom, really involved in not only foster care but the adoption who is our granddaughter now. And so that's where we're going to start. So welcome, Caitlin.
Thank you.
So glad to have you.
This is so exciting.
So exciting. So why don't you maybe just start out sharing what happened several years ago that really brought you into foster care and bringing Rosie into our family?
Yeah. So I started before we even knew about Rosie. I had a really terrible birth with our last daughter, Oliver, and knew that I wanted more kids, but that I didn't want to birth them myself. So I had been processing like, what does that look like? I had never really known anyone that or anything, so it wasn't really in my scope of mind. I just knew that I wanted more kids. And so that started my heart's pathway of what's other alternatives to having children. And then one day, several months later, we were washing the dishes. I remember it vividly. And we had heard from Pat that there was a family member that had had a baby in a different state. And that night, we had gotten a call from Oregon, D. C. F. And they had said my husband, Tom's cousin, had had a baby, and they were looking for family members that wanted to be involved and what their involvement would look like. And I remember me and Tom automatically wasn't even a question. Well, if she needs a place to stay, she's family, so she can come here. And that was where they were at in the point of the case, anyways, was looking for someone to adopt this baby.
And so I know that it was a lot of conversations in the family of what does that look like, because taking someone else's child as your own and then doing that so that she can remain in the family and so that grandpa can still be grandpa, and she can still grow up with all her relatives and just looks a little different. And so we began a long process of really fighting for her and her best interest and keeping her in the family. I want to say it took us five months of me calling every day bothering all the workers to just advocate for her best, which eventually in June, we got the call that she was ready to be picked up and that it was going to take about a week for them to figure out which worker was going to fly her to us. So then we responded, Well, can we just go out there and get her? And they said, yes. And so I spent 24 hours, flew all the way to Oregon, grabbed her in a parking lot, flew all the way back. And we have a video of the moment that she came from the airport and met Tom and the girls.
And I really cherish that because it was meant to be. And the girls just loved her already, and she was so sweet and a sweet addition to our family. And so that started a journey for me because it was so fulfilling to be able to be that role to a child that needed a safe place to stay. And then also just the advocating for her. I learned so much in those five months of the system and how much children people advocating for their best, otherwise they get lost. And so it really sparked this passion in my heart to help other children. And so I started by changing my career. I used to be a hairdresser, and my passion shifted. And I started working with families that were working with DCYF and trying to reunify children to their parents and doing a lot of in-home therapy with them. And then I just kept going down the line. And I eventually wanted to make the rules because I saw how many families were just not being treated fairly and how many children there really were. And so I now work for the state, and I am in child services investigating childhood, abuse, and neglect.
So it's just saying that one yes, as nervous and as scared as we were of what that was going to look like, changed our whole lives and my whole career. And I now love what I do. I get to go into families and find out what are some safety concerns, what are some things that we need to work on, and how can we provide support to keep the kids home. And then obviously, if it's not safe, advocating for what is best for these children. And we still do foster care. We are on our sixth long term foster care child. So that has been really rewarding. Our first foster daughter, we were able to help reunify with her father, which was really nice. We got to invite him over for dinner, helped him interview for his first job. And then once they unified, it was able to buy some things for her room and set her room up. And we're still in contact with her dad today. So it's been a life changing event going from not really knowing anything about foster care or adoption or how that even looks. How can you love someone else's child as your own?
All those fears to now our daughter is going to be turning six. She's thriving. She's in kindergarten. It's like she was meant to be part of our family. And I like to say because we talk openly with our kids about adoption and that Rosie is adopted. But we like to say that the other kids grew in my belly, but Rosie grew in my heart because before we even knew about her, I was already in that sense of knowing that there is a child out there for me that I wasn't going to birth.
Well, and I can attest to the fact, having watched Kate, you were just a Bulldog. It was just like, this girl is our daughter. We're going to make sure that we get her. And you were just passionate and on the phone and pushing, pushing, pushing and advocating for her, knowing that jumping around because she had a few different foster homes and she was literally taken at birth. So the relinquishment, she was brand new baby and you knew that she needed to have that stability.
I remember even fighting with them when they were she's ready to go, paperwork's filed, but it's going to take us a couple of weeks. And I just remember my mom being absolutely not if she's ready to be ours, we'll buy the ticket and go fly out there. I don't care. But yeah, I think the whole process took, they say it's supposed to take about two years for the process of going inter-state. And I was not having that. I was not having my daughter somewhere else. When I knew in my heart was mine. And so like I said, we called every day to remind them, hey, what's the status today? Keep them pushing. And I think they really did it in five months because they were annoyed with me. But I needed to do.
That's all right. Annoying is good. Doing is good, but it's making a difference to the lives of little ones and all of that. So one of the things that I like to just think about here, what are the gifts? What are the gifts for you as the mother and Tom as the father and as a family for choosing being able to choose Rosie? I mean, she chose, I believe that God works in these beautiful ways, but really, she is the chosen one. And what are some of the gifts for your family that you have seen over these past two years?
I think the most important gift is just teaching my children that you can love people without roles. So I didn't birth Rosie, but we love her the same as our birth children, and our children love her the same as their blood siblings, and that there's not necessarily a label to love, and that there's this beautiful story of adopting people in, whether that's through the pure adoption process or even just allowing people in your life that need you, doing foster care. We have kiddos come, stay for a while, and then leave. And it's this beautiful process of teaching our kids about really just loving other people. And Rosie has been such a gift to us because she really just changed her whole life from your just American selfish way of having the kids, having the job, being successful. I wanted to own my own salon. And just everything changed once we started walking through this process because it was like, I don't really want those things anymore. I just want to advocate for what's best for children. And just really just changed our whole perspective on life.
Well, and you found your soul's purpose.
Right.
Truly. And Tom, Caitlin's husband, our son, is a law enforcement officer and always an advocate for the children in so many ways and in so many different roles that he's had within the departments that he has worked in. And so together, the synergy and the beauty and the relationship that you have in the home that you have created is just such a beautiful gift to Rosie too. But there's been some challenges. So what are some of the challenges to the adoption?
I think one of the major ones that stands out as far as the beginning process is just the fear of going to feel like she's mine. And is she going to love me like I'm her mother? Or is she going to hold it against me? Or just all those fears of anything, really. And I think that for us, we just had to push the fear aside and just state this was meant to be, and it'll work out how it works out. And really, all those fears that started creeping in the beginning, not even a chance that any of those are truthful. And so I think another one of the challenges is, especially, inner-family adoption. I think in the beginning, there's some challenges of roles or just not hurt feelings, but I think there's just like, it's unfortunate that the world is broken and that sometimes adoption needs to happen. And I think you grieve that process. I remember grieving for her biological mom of like, it's not lost on me that she's now mine and not yours. And in the challenges that mom has to face because of that, I think for me, that's the heaviest grief of just knowing that it's not lost on me that she's now grieving on something that we're excited about, that we love.
I think if I would say, I would say that is probably the biggest grief in adoption is just understanding that while adoption is just pure love and pure greatness, it's also grief for someone. And for many people, for Rosie, I'm sure someday she's going to ask about her birth mother, and there'll be some grief for her, even, too, why it couldn't work out the way that it should have. I think that's probably the biggest challenge. Yeah.
And I'm always very open when I'm talking to people and doing these interviews. We did. We went through some family drama. And you grieve that too, because the intentionality behind reaching out and wanting to adopt was pure love and wanting to really make a difference in this child's life. And we believe that all children have a right to flourish and thrive. And sometimes that just isn't a possibility. But extended family members may not see that and egos get in the way and different things like that. And we really had to work through a lot of that as a family union and individually with the various players in the family. But today it feels like everybody is like rock-solid on board and feels really good. And they love seeing the family together and seeing Rosie flourish. And I've just heard so many great things from the extended family. And Ken and I could not be more thrilled to have this beautiful granddaughter in our life knowing that there was nothing that we could probably do but having you guys step up just made a world of difference.
And I think it's been also restorative to some parts of the family. Rosie's biological grandmother sent her the beautiful cultural Indian necklaces and jewelry for her to have when she's older. And having video chats with her half brother and her grandfather. I think it also is a story of just some family redemption almost.
Healing the ancestral wounding. I think there's that. It's not anybody's fault that that goes on, but to be able to change the pattern and all of that epigenetics, so to speak, so that it can move forward. If you could take a look at your story, is there anything that you wished could have been different?
I wish I could have had it right away. I wish I could have... I'm close with her longest foster home that she had. And every once in a while, I will find a video of Rosie as a newborn and send it to me. And I think my heart grieves that I didn't get those first seven months because she is now my child. And so you talk about stories about rocking your kids to sleep and, oh, you were the fussy. So I had to do this. And I don't have any of those stories for her until she was seven months old. So I don't know what she was like as a newborn. And then your mama heart is like, was she ever scared? So I think that, yeah, for me, that is the biggest grievance and hardship, I think, is that I won't ever have those months back. Right.
Now, working in what you work, I want to really dive into that a little bit and where you are working. We all, I think, believe that reunification, being with the family, being with the biological parents when it's healthy and safe is by far because we know through epigenetics and the bonding in utero between child and mother, especially, is such an important aspect. And when relinquishment happens and children are in orphanages and things like that or foster care and don't have that bonding, we know it can cause difficulties. But there are times, right? Well, I guess I want to say in your experience now over these years, what percentage would you say you really are successful in the reunification? If you could look at all of your caseload and your departments.
Honestly, I would say 50-50. You have the parents that really want to put the work in and can and are able to overcome their challenges. Our job, DCYF gets a bad rap, but I am very passionate about my job. And I like to see it as I get in there, identify some of the hardships, the challenges that the parents have to being the best parent they can be. And then it's how can I help? What can we put in place? How can we make the children reunify? Because really, I just want a whole healthy family for you. And so there's half of the parents that are, yes, I want well, all of them are like, yes, I want my kid back, obviously, as a parent of a child. But there's some I would say half of them that are like, okay, let's do this. Ii will partner with you. I'll do what you say. Let's do this. I want to get my kid back. And then there's half that just buck you the whole way and are not able to really come to terms with what their challenges are and are not able to self reflect enough to know what needs to change in order to be the best parent they can be.
And it really just comes down to the parent and what if they're able to self reflect and able to take the help from you. And it's very it's sad when they can't reunify. Adoption is happy and we're excited for the foster parents that adopt and the kiddos that get to stay. Usually they've been in this home for a while and it's stability for them because we do the twelve month thing because children deserve stability. So people often ask, well, why can't it be a five year process? Because these kids, they need stability. And they really do understand that they're not stable until the 12 month mark. And so, yeah, I would say 50-50. And sometimes you get surprised. Our last foster daughter, up until month 10, looked like she was going to need to be adopted out, which we were so grieving for her because she had spent so much time with her mom. She was a teenager. And then mom really just had a moment of self-reflection and did what she needed to do and reunified with all of her kids. They now live with her and they're doing great. And so it really is just whether the parent can self-reflect and taking the services that we provide.
And once you see a click in their head, it's so fun to watch. We rejoice more over the underdog that just reunified with her kids because we know that that was really, really hard for her and she was able to do the work.
And how long do them stay when the reunification occurs?
So we say 12 months. But if a parent is doing what they need to do, they can reunify sooner, we're involved legally for 12 months. But then again, we're also involved after they reunify for a couple of months just to ensure there's all the supports in place that we're not going to be here again like that you guys are set up. So we do stay and supervise the family, really, from a distance just to make sure everything's going well and there's nothing else that we could help with the family.
Oh, that's so beautiful. So beautiful. Well, I took away one quote that I'll be using a lot is there's not a label for love. There's not a label for love. And we know that in our family. You know that through your work. It doesn't matter the genetics of it. Yes, you want to try to keep them in their culture. And I've had some conversations with my cousin like, what are some of the things if you can't keep them in their cultural aspects? There's just so many issues that can arise from that, which you're able to give to Rosie because we were able to keep her in the birth family. But a lot of times that doesn't occur. And we know, I know that having a blended family, dad and I have a blended family. All my children are all my children. There is no definition of love. It's just there. And everybody gets treated equally, whether you're... I don't even like to call in-laws, right? Mama Pat treats everybody the same because all of you are the same in my heart. So I guess if you could leave us with two things. One is if you had one thing to tell the audience, if they are the people perhaps looking at foster care or if they're the teenager or the adult person who was adopted into a family, what's one thing that you would like to share with them?
And also if we know someone might be struggling in their parenting role, how should we handle that to be supportive?
Yeah. So first I would say to people who are considering doing foster care, do it. It's so rewarding. I'm not going to lie, there are days that are tough because you're dealing with kids who are not with mom and dad. We have a two year old right now and we talk to his mom every night over video chat. And sometimes he's upset afterwards, which is understandable. And so, yeah, sometimes my night is consoleing a two year old, which is a lot, but it's worth it because when you watch these kids reunify or when you watch them find their forever, you're not going to say, Oh, that wasn't worth it. It always is worth the work. And so, again, to the kids who are older that are processing being adopted, that's something that we're very quickly probably going to come up on with, Rosie. Process your feelings. It's okay to process your feelings, but know that you are chosen by whomever adopted you. There was an actual choice made that I want you as part of my family. I think that that is also very empowering. You can grieve the part that you're not with your bio parents, but just holding on to the empowering thought that someone chose you specifically to be part of their family and to be loved.
I think that that is beautiful. Again, I think that what this whole process has really taught us is that love is love, and this world needs more of it. And as you go through life, God might put people in your path that need to be under your roof and need to be just loved on and have your role be a parent figure for them however long that has to be. And you just need to be willing to open your heart to people outside of your labeled daughter or son and just be able to just love people that need to be loved. And that's what we have done as a family. And so we've done foster care. We've adopted. We currently have a college girl living in our house because she needed a family to stay with. So I think we've just adopted now this identity that we just love people that need to be loved that get put in our path. And so as far as watching family struggle, I think a lot of times there are times that definitely an agency needs to step in and ensure kids are safe. But I think before it even gets to that point is just being someone who watches other… It's someone who cares for others to a point of like, hey, I am realizing that this person I might be close with in my community or my kids community seems to be struggling, how can I help so that it doesn't get to the point where DCYF is now needing to be involved?
What can I do if this person seems to be struggling? How can I help this family? Because oftentimes there is a path, and then it gets to the DCYF point. And so if we can nip it in the bud here, if we can have more people in life that are just have their eyes open to how they can help others, I think a lot of our families wouldn't get to the point where they need to work with DCYF. I think that just as a community, if you just adopt your community as your family and just keeping your eyes open, if God puts a family in your in your path and you're seeing what they're struggling, that's probably your invitation to help out. I think that that more so is something to be had because I think for me and in the investigative part, a lot of the families that come in, I'm not fighting neglect on them. They're just struggling. And so my job is helping put people in place to help them out. But if that could be done organically that they didn't even need to get to me yet, I think that we'd see a lot less families that need to be involved with the government.
I love that. And my B.R.E.A.T.H.E coaching model for grief that I created for people who are grieving and grief has so many different aspects. It's not just the death of a loved one, the physical death, but all of this that we've talked about is one of the points that I have, one of the steps is engaging your tribe. And of course, I use tribe because we come from an indigenous culture that we're married into. But I think that's so important because rather than judging or seeing what's going on in someone's family and making a judgment about that, how can you really step in and offer that support? Because like you said, it's not neglect. It just may be that overwhelm. Could you be a part of that person's tribe, a part of that family's tribe to step in and help out a little bit and make that difference so that that family can stay solid, safe and flourish? Because that's what it's all about. And so are there any resources just top of mind where people could go if I wanted to learn a little bit more about how to help someone that I might see is struggling?
Yeah. So every community has in every state really is a little bit different. But if you want to know what your town has for resources, you can go to the welfare office and just ask like, hey, what are the resources? Because they'll know housing resources. If a family becomes homeless and you want to help them find housing, they'll know those resources. They'll know food pantry resources. They'll know just almost like I would suggest researching that for your town where you live ahead of time so that once you come across the family like, hey, they seem to be struggling financially. Well, here, let me walk you through what the welfare office could do for you because I'm already knowledgeable about what is appropriate. Because sometimes, especially moments like that, they're in crisis. They're not thinking correctly of what they could do. So that's a perfect example of stepping in and saying, hey, I'm thinking correctly. Let me help you process through this and process work and what not. So every state, every town is different. So I would just say formalize yourself with what resources are around you.
Takes a village. Well, thank you so much. I love you to be on forever. I always want to say I'm so proud of you and Tom, but I'm proud to be your parent and to be a part of your life.
We're soul sisters.
Yes, we are. Okay, so there I go. I get a little emotional with that. So thank you, everybody, for listening and keep an eye out because we will be doing our panel discussion in the future. And great stuff, Caitlin. So just hang on and I'll talk to you in just a minute.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Summary:
In this interview with Barbara DeMers, we will discuss not only her lived experience of being an adoptive child after being removed at birth from her mother and placed into an orphanage for 6 months before her adoptive parents brought her home, but we also touch on what some of the research is showing about the effects of adoption on the adoptee.
Barbara’s passion is to provide support and healing for physical and emotional challenges through energy healing.
She is an extensive learner - always developing herself through knowledge so that she may support others on their path to healing. She is also a Certified Grief Coach through our Confident Grief Coach School where we help people become more confident in stepping out into the world as a professional support for those who grieve.
Shownotes:
Hello.It is.Pat here. I am Pat Sheveland, if you do not know me, I am the Confident Grief Coach. I'm the founder of Healing Family Grief and the Confident Grief Coach School. I wanted to give you a little heads-up on a project that I'm working on with some of my family members. Here's a little bit about the background. When I was a little girl, not even school age yet, I had first-hand experience of the joy and excitement that arises from an adoption. When I was really, really little, I was at my grandparents' house on a Sunday afternoon when my aunt and uncle came in and my aunt was carrying a baby. This baby was a girl. I was so excited. This had such a profound impact on me because I was no longer going to be the only girl in this extended family where all I had are boy cousins and my brothers. I had no sisters. This was super exciting. But to be honest, I never really thought about the fact that she was adopted until I was at her wedding when I met some of her birth family. I have to be honest, I just couldn't wrap my head around the fact that she had other siblings and other parents because all I knew is that she was my cousin and my aunt and uncle's child.
Never even thought that.She was. Adopted the whole time that I knew her. Over the last several years, she and I have had a lot of conversations about her adoption story. Interestingly enough. We and my immediate family, with my husband and I have experienced a lot of adoptions and have grown our family, I guess, to be a family of many adoptees. My daughter-in-law, who's married to one of our sons, was abandoned as a premature newborn in India many, many years ago. She was adopted by a single woman in the United States after spending months in an orphanage in Calcutta. She needed to stay there because she was unviable to even get on a plane to come to her adopted mother and come to the US until they could really have 24/7 care to really get her to that place. We believe that she was held by Mother Teresa, and that's what got her here and helped her to be just like this magnificent woman that she is today. Also, my granddaughter, who was our great niece at the time, was taken at birth by Social Services because it was just felt that it would be better for her and safer for her to be placed into a foster to adopt situation, and we'll share a lot about that story.
But it spurned a passion within my other daughter-in-law to want to take this child, bring her in to foster and to formally adopt her. Our great niece is now our granddaughter. We're so happy and so thrilled that she can be raised in a loving home and be a part of our family. Then a few years ago, I gained a new brother-in-law through ancestry DNA testing. Who knew? But I'll tell you, we are so thrilled to have him as part of our family and that we were able to connect and really get to know each other and be family together. Because my passion is in the grief healing space, I kept getting this inner nudge to talk more about adoption.
What are some of the grief that shows up? What's some of that grief that shows up for the people who are being adopted and also for the adopted parents? Or for the parents who had to relinquish their child, feel that that was a necessary thing to do?
What goes on with genetics and epigenetics and all of these different things that can really play an impact? I really wanted to delve into this a little bit further, and I've asked these family members that I just spoke of to share their stories with me so that I can share them with you. Over the month of October, I will be sharing each of these interviews on the Healing Family Grief YouTube channel and on the Confident Grief Coach podcast show. I would love it if you could hop on over to either of these forums. Hit the subscribe button down so that you get notification when these are up and running. Give us a thumbs up if you like what you see and hear when you do listen to these episodes. Everyone has a little bit different story, has different beliefs about adoption, and that's the beauty of it. We're going to culminate this series on adoption with a live panel discussion with my guests, my family, on Sunday, November fifth, at seven o'clock pm Central Time. We're going to hold that over Zoom, where you can sign up and ask us questions and get more insight. My hope is that if you are adopted, this can bring some measure of, I'm not alone in this and my feelings.
If you are a parent who relinquished your child, you can hopefully gain some comfort through this series and this conversation. If you are adopted parents and you just want to hear what other people's stories are, our stories are powerful and can help not only heal ourselves, but also provide an avenue for healing for other people.
So please keep an eye out for this series, Adoption: Where Grief and Gratitude Can Co-Exist. I look forward to seeing you over the next several weeks. Oh, yeah, links to the Healy Family Grief YouTube channel will be in the comments below. I look forward to seeing all of you and hope that you can make it. Peace out.
Hello, everyone. I am just so excited because I have someone that's super near and dear to my heart that I've known since I was probably three, I guess. My dearly beloved cousin, Barbara, who is the first, kicking off the first of our conversations about adoption and what it means to the adoptee.
The Person who was chosen to be brought into a new family, but also has experienced the abandonment of not being able to be with their birth family. So this is we're kicking it off. We're going to do a whole series about this, and then we're going to have a culmination of it.
With the whole panel of all the people that I'm doing individual calls with. So I'm excited to do this, and I'm honored, my dear Barb, that you are kicking this off because you and I have had lots of conversations about this over the years for sure. So do you want to just tell everybody just a little bit more about who are and who you are today, and then we'll dive into your birth and adoption story, but just tell us a little bit more about you.
Hey, my name is Barbara Demers. I am married. I have two adult children and a grandchild, my first grandchild on the way. I have been a hairstylist for more years than I even like to say, for 43 years. I've owned a salon for 12 years. I've also been interested in energy medicine. I've studied and I've been doing energy medicine since 1998, and I've studied several modalities, and now I'm doing some teaching and collaborating with a group called Awakening Healing Access. I also doing Akashic record readings. And yeah, that's me in a nutshell as they say in a nutshell.
So yes, hairstylist, extraordinary. This energy work, I just wanted to chat a little bit about that because I'm sure a lot of that came from everything that you experienced, whether you do it or not to come into energy, healing and that type of work. And you were one of the pioneers in the area where we live. Not many people were doing that. So what was like your firststep into energy work? What that drew you to it?
What drew me to it? Well, it was after my mother passed away. I had a client, a hair client that I was seeing who she was a family therapist, and she also started doing energy work. So she started telling me about she was doing this energy work stuff where she studied Reiki. And I was like, at the time, I had never heard of anything like that. And my first thought was like, she's weird. And that doesn't even like whatever, weirdo. I didn't know what it was. I didn't understand it. I just cast it aside. But she kept mentioning it to me that it might be something that would be helpful for me through my grief. And then I started on that synchronicity thing where all of a sudden, every place I went, she was there. I went to get gas. She's pumping gas across from me. I go to the grocery store, I turn the corner and there she is. Literally, it was in one week, I think I saw her every day. Finally, I thought, fine, okay, hey, no uncle. I give up. I'll go see her. I made an appointment to see her.
Before I saw her then I had another one of our friends, another mutual friend of ours whose mother had passed away shortly after my mother had passed away. And they found, her and her sister found a medium. And at the time, I had no idea what a medium was, but she called me up. She was, We found a medium. Do you want to go with us? Because she can talk to our dead mothers. And so I'm like, Yeah. I'm like, Yeah, sign me up. Sure, let's do that. So the three of us made an appointment to go see this medium, which was literally a couple of days after I had made the appointment to go see this gal who did the Reiki. So I went and saw the gal who did the Reiki, and then we talked for a while, and I got on the table and she's doing this energy work on me. And at one point, she grabbed my hand and she held my hand. She said, just as I suspected, because you're a natural born healer. I can remember opening my eyes and going, What? What's that? I don't even know what you're talking about.
Anyway, I left and then the appointment was relaxing and it was my first experience with energy work, and I still thought it was weird. I really didn't know what was happening. Well, then a couple of days later, I went with my two friends and we went to see this medium. And of course, I went first because we were all afraid because we didn't know what it was. So we sat down and she said to me, she goes, You know your life is about to drastically change, don't you? She said, You're a natural born healer. And I was.
Like, Oh, and.
I'm like, What the heck? How come this is two people in one week that have said this to me? And I don't even know what that means. What is that? So anyway, I've continued to see both of them for quite some time. Actually, I still see the gal, the medium gal, and the other gal is a good friend of mine now. And shortly thereafter, as I started to learn more about energy work, it was like, I know this. This makes sense. I get this. It totally was something that I can relate to when I started. I actually didn't do Reiki right away. I studied and became certified healing touch practitioner. And then I did some Reiki and I studied pronic healing. And I've just done a lot have a lot of training and education and energy medicine.
It was like it unlocked. I mean, it was all there. It's just like unlock the key. The key was you are an energy worker. It was almost like that was the key that you needed that your psyche needed to hear to like, okay, and then it just unlocked. And that's so beautiful.
Right.
So we'll probably get back to this and round back. But I just think it's fascinating because you were on the forefront... I had run to this long before other people jumped on the bandwagon. A lot of people didn't jump on the bandwagon and thought it was the devil's work and that type of thing. But we all know, most of us and people who listen to me, I would think, understand that we know that we're all made of energy and we know that we can transform energy. We can't make it. We can't get rid of it. We can't create it, we can't destroy it, but we can transform it. And that's what energy work is all about. That's where healing occurs at the most basic level when you can get to those root causes. Speaking of root causes, share as much as you're comfortable with Barb, because I know this can be a sensitive topic for.
Anybody who's sharing their story, but as much as you would like about your story your birth and adoption story.
Well, I was adopted. I am an adoptee. I was adopted when I was six months old. I was in an orphanage from some time after birth until my adoption. I was adopted into a very loving, wonderful, generous, loving family. I really had a very idyllic childhood. I had parents who adored me. I had a brother who was quite a bit older than I am. By the time I was about five, he was 18, he went on to college, and then he was drafted in the Air Force. And he really did move back to my hometown until I was probably about 16 or 17, maybe even 17 or 18. So I grew up like an only child. Right before I got married, shortly before I got married, I think I got married when I was 23, 23 and a half, about a year and a half before that, some of the adoption laws changed. And I had seen the article in the newspaper, and I had written... You had to write a letter to the agency that you were adopted through that you would like to open up your records, your adoption records, your adoption file.
And I wrote the letter, and I was so scared. It was really scary because I didn't tell my parents. And what was interesting then, a couple of weeks later, I went home and I was having dinner, and my parents had also seen the article and my dad had cut the article out of the paper and showed it to me and asked me if I would... He says, here, the laws have changed. We saw this. We thought you might be interested. And I was like, Oh, my God.
Thank God.
Thank God, because I had already sent the letter out. So I was contacted by a social worker. I was adopted through Catholic Charities. And sometimes they say it takes a while for them to find. So it was probably about, I think it was about a year and a half that it took. And what was interesting that I got a phone call one day and the social worker said to me, she said, Well, this is really interesting. And she goes, I should have known. I followed lots of leads, but the names sounded so familiar that I had a girl in my graduating class with that same last name. And so I contacted her and it was your sister. And I was just like, What? I'm looking for my birth parents. I have a sister? Well, lo and behold, I have eight siblings. And so it was right before I got married. I got married in January, and this was the end of November, beginning of December is when I got the call. And it just happened to be my birth mother did not live in the state at the time, but she felt a very strong call to come back to Minnesota.
And she came back to Minnesota literally just a couple of days before the social worker called my sister.
Wow.
So I met her, and that was probably the beginning of December. We met at Perkins, and we started at breakfast, and we stayed till way after lunch. I think we were there for probably about five hours or so. During that time, one of my sisters did come and had lunch with us. She worked close by. And then it was shortly maybe about two or three weeks after that that I met the whole family. I think it was maybe shortly after Christmas or around New Year's that I met everybody else.
So you went from almost effectively being an only child to having a whole bunch of siblings and siblings. Wow.
Yes. So my birth father was deceased. My birth mother is now also passed. But my birth father actually passed away about two weeks before I was born. He was an alcoholic and a diabetic, which is not a good combination. And that is not why I was put up for adoption or the last three of these siblings that I have, or there's three of us, actually, that became wards of the state when we were born because my birth parents did not have custody. All my other siblings were in and out of foster care. So we just became wards of the state when we were born and put up for adoption. And of course, adoption back then looked a lot different than it does now. My adoptive family waited, I think, over seven years for me. They had to, of course, my family went through Catholic charities, and so my birth family and my adoptive family were both Catholic. And they used to match eye color, hair color, and also nationalities. So I have a lot of the same Irish and German, Danish, and French. And my parents were Irish and German.
Luxembourger.
Excuse me.
I'm kidding. That was what my dad, my father and her dad were siblings, and my dad used to always go, You're Luxembourger. And it's like, well, we're really right next door to each other.
Yeah, right.
Tomato, tomato.
That's right.
Anyway, so I looked a lot like... I have blue eyes and same hair color and skin tone as my adopted family did. So people would often say that, that I looked like, Oh, this must be your mom. And I would always notice that smile on her face because I'm sure that was something that really warmed her heart. But I will have to tell you that when I sat across from my birth mother and my sister, that was mind-boggling to actually really see somebody that looked like you. I remember when my sister walked in the door, I almost like... I don't know. It was just really strange.
Is she the one that...
Yeah, you two look really similar to each.
Other because...
And we've shared the story many times. But at your wedding, I remember looking up and I'm like, Because Barb came into our family at six months of age. And I remember going to our grandparents and my aunt and uncle had this little baby. And I was so excited because I was the only girl out of all the boys of the cousins and my family. And there was a little girl and I was so excited that there was another girl in the family. So I never thought about... Its like I was never thought about adoption or how you came into the family or any of that stuff. I mean, I was what, three, I suppose. I think there's three years difference or whatever, however old. And so I didn't think anything of it. And it just wasn't a thing that we thought about. And then I was at your wedding and then this woman, your sister, and I looked and I'm like, Oh, my God! She's like the spitting image of Barb. And it was like weird for me. It was almost uncanny because it's like, I just don't... Wow, that's amazing. But it just was like, nightmare was in our mind's eye. Yeah, that's so beautiful. I bet it was just like extremely weird.
Yes. So my siblings did come to my wedding. My birth mother did not. She did not feel that it was her place. She said this is the time for your mother, for your parents to embrace. And she actually left town a couple of days before the wedding. So she didn't come, but my siblings did were there. So yes, I think that was interesting for everybody.
Yeah. And so special. I mean, when you think about... I mean, I shared with you that... And I'll be interviewing my brother-in-law, but my mother-in-law had a child that is my husband's half brother. And I always thought about after I found out about that, how my mother-in-law thought about... I'm sure she thought about Tim 24/7. I'm sure that that every day she thought about Tim because, again, he was given up at birth and was in an orphanage for six months. And I didn't get acquainted with his birth family until he was in his 50s. But I just also for the adopted child, but also for that mother, because we know that you're a mom, I'm a mom, that I think that tethering never gets from them. It's like this energetic umbilical cord that never gets cut off. It's always there. And so I just, wow, what a powerful thing for your mom to do to step back when I'm sure all she wanted to do was spend time.
Right.
Yeah.
It was my birth parent, my birth mother and my adopted mother did meet. Rather point to that it always brings me to tears. They met at my father's casket, my adopted father's desk casket. It was at his wake that she came to the wake and she met my mom at the side of the casket. And it was beautiful. They embraced and they thanked each other. And it was quite a poignant moment that I'll never forget. They interacted a couple of other times after that. But my birthmother did not live in the state. Yeah, she didn't live in the state, so she wasn't around a lot. My my mom died 10, my adopted mom died 10 years later. By the time my birthmother moved back to Minnesota and her later years, my mom was already gone.
Wow. So you have had extraordinary life filled with grief. Filled with trauma, filled with abandonment, filled with extraordinary love, compassion, the both ends of all of it. I'm going to start out with first, because I always like to start out with positives and life. What are the greatest gifts. That you feel were bestowed upon you being the adopted one, the chosen one?
Well, that's a very interesting question. I was brought up by, like I said, by very loving. I had a very idyllic childhood, very loving parents who were just, I don't want to say it couldn't do any wrong, but it was a very positive experience. I wasn't spoiled with material things, but I was definitely spoiled with love and attention and affection. It's interesting to talk with, or at one point, I know some of my biological siblings used to tell me that I was the lucky one because they were in and out of foster care, which I'm sure was not easy to be taken in a foster home and they were separated in a couple of different foster homes and then brought back together. So they used to look at and tell me that I was the lucky one. I do some work and Akashic records, and I've been bringing this to my record keepers and asking them about that. And really, I had the realization that I would not be who I am today if I did not live the life I lived, right? And so coming to the understanding or the appreciation of self-love and loving where I'm at and loving the life that I have today, where would I be or who would I be if I would have a different life?
So I think I have a wonderful life and I love the life that I'm living. So I wouldn't be here right now in this space if I had not had that experience. Did it come with some trauma? Yes. Adoption cannot come without trauma. I would even say that I know that I shared some of this information with you before that adoption really isn't the trauma piece. It's the relinquishment from the birth mother where the trauma comes in. So to me, it's like almost two separate things. Because for a while I really struggled with, well, is adoption bad? Is this not a good thing? But no, it is a gift. It definitely is a gift. It's definitely necessary, especially in fostering situations where if we're looking at the safety and the wellbeing of children. But yet there is a trauma because there's so much physiology and so much cellular things that happen between a baby in utero and your mother, and you just can't expect that bond to be broken.
That's why I said that umbilical cord, it's an energetic umbilical cord that is never severed. We know with epigenetics now and all the science that's out there just how our DNA is turned off or on in the womb and the things that happen with our mother and their stress levels and their happiness and even with the external, with our fathers. I mean, we know that even that can affect the child in the womb. But certainly, yeah, that word relinquishment is really so powerful. I mean, that's a powerful way of expressing it. So a lot of good because you won't be who you are today. You won't be the extraordinary mom that you are, the wonderful wife that you are, the friend that you are to so many, the sibling that you are. I know the aunt too many, the cousin too many. That's who you are. You've touched so many souls behind the chair that sat in the chair where you were doing your energy work without even probably thinking about it for many years. It was just a natural gift of helping others in whatever trauma they might have been going through life challenges. So if you could, and I know you've done a lot of work with this, what are some of the biggest challenges over the years from this relinquishment? The everything that transpired at the time of your birth?
That's a very interesting question and a very challenging one to answer because I didn't think about the psychology of adoption until probably about seven or eight years ago. Everybody has some trauma. We all have life experiences and life incidences that make us who we are or take us down where we build patterns or behaviors. But I think for the trauma of adoption, that relinquishment is that you... Well, it's pre-verbal, so it happens before. It's like it's pre personality, before you even have personality. You don't even realize what happened. For many traumas, I think, let's say if you were... I think this is the example that one of the gentlemen I've been listening to uses in his research. He talks about if you got in a severe car accident on the highway, you've been driving down that highway for years and you got in a severe car accident, and after a while you just think you can't get in the car and drive for a while, then maybe you can start driving after a while and you can start driving just around town, close to home. But you're not going to go down that highway again.
It's going to take a little time, maybe a little more driving, maybe go down another highway. But pretty soon you have a memory that you drove down that highway for years and you were okay. So the adoption trauma happens before you even have a personality. It's like all of a sudden you were attached to this beam, you grew in this beam. You have this hormonal physiology, a cellular physiology, all these things that all of a sudden that's gone. And so I think there's a lot of issues with trust. There's a lot of issues with addiction. There's a lot of issues with making sure that you present as being whole and grounded and steady, because if you present as being really wounded, then you might get pushed or relinquished again. For many adoptes, there's more than one relinquishment. It's not only the relinquishment from birth, but then for myself, I was in an orphanage. And so what happened in the orphanage? Was I cared for? Did where my needs met? Was just my needs met? Maybe I was fed and I was changed, but was I nurtured? Was I held? Those are the things that you had that there's relinquishment number two being moved out of the orphanage and into a new home.
So here I am again being relinquished from something that became familiar for six months, which ended the life of the baby is like a lifetime, right?
Yeah.
And you think that they can't be remembered, but these are very ingrained things. So yes, we can't really recall them and say, oh, yes, I remember.
Well, it's a survival instinct. So the lack of trust, the ability to have addictions. And when you talk about addictions, we're not just talking addictions to chemicals and that type of thing. It can be a lot of different things. It could be food, it could be shopping, it could be addiction to love of another person. I mean, there's just so many different... We probably all have some pattern of addiction within us, but this is like, it's there in survival. It's survival because dang it, I wasn't taken care of. I was given up. And then even in the work page, one thing that I thought about too, is you might have had a caregiver in the orphanage that just bonded so much to you. I mean, it could be the other way, too, right?
Right.
Exactly. And then all of a sudden, boom, you're ripped out of that person, out of their arms too. So then.
Why can't Itry to think why wouldn't I be ripped out of somebody else's arms? And I think some of that addiction comes from that need to self-soothe. And yes, there's a lot of walls that could put up because why should I even get close to you? You're going to leave anyway. And so that's where that presentation of having to be that really sturdy, whole person so that the person isn't going to leave. And even my husband said that to me a couple of weeks ago when we were talking because he was listening along with me as I was listening to some YouTube video about adoption. And he goes, You think you have all this trauma. He goes, But you're the most whole person that I've ever met. He goes, That's why I married you. And I'm like, That is what I present to you so that you could marry me. It doesn't mean that I believe that or feel that on the inside.
Wow. I didn't think about that presentation of presenting as whole. But now when I'm thinking about... You and I have talked about this. I feel like I'm meant to share some of this because there is so much just within our own family, within my family, my children, my husband, my cousin, my children have adopted my great niece who was taken away, relinquished at birth not by choice of mom, but by necessity. So there's so much that I have been surrounded in. My daughter-in-law, who will be interviewing here also in India, when she did her DNA, it was like part of the Chinese, Asian, and then the Indian-Asian. So that's what messed me up. But she too, six months or five months or whatever that she was over there as a premature baby. Then all of a sudden, you're put in somewhere else. And I see that. I see that being that presentation of I'm whole I'm strong. But I've also gotten to know my family pretty well too, that I can see the glimpses, but they don't come out for very long, right? Because that's a behavior. I think it's just a survival instinct, right? That any being on this Earth would be doing the same. It's even more so when we're human beings and that attachment is just so huge from that.
So you've been doing a lot of research in this area. You work in the Akashic records, that type of thing, a lot of energy work. We were talking before we got on the phone and you said that there is no healing from this. It isn't like we heal and it's gone. I shared, yeah, that's what I talk about with grief is I say it's healing family grief, but it's a part of healing. It's not healing it in totality because grief is part of who we are. This trauma and grief and trauma are so intertwined is who we are. And so it's always there within us. And then we build the layers of resiliency around that and how we're nurtured and cared for or maybe not, depends on how that all shows up with that layering upon that grief and the resiliency from that perspective. But it doesn't go away. But the action of grieving, I had interviewed Mary Francis O'Connor, who wrote The Grieving Brain, and she really defined the difference between grief and grieving. And that's what I see here too, is it's like you said, the trauma is there. You can't erase it.
You can't change the wiring and all of that type of thing, but your response to it or you talked about acceptance?
Right. You just have to know that the blessing and the trauma have to live right next to each other. I've really likened it lately to... It's like a lean. For a while, I really leaned on the trauma, and I was studying and researching about what is it and just having the understanding. There are some things I've read and listened to that I literally gasped out loud. When I learned that it was like a pre-personality trauma, and I was just like, Oh, my God, that makes so much sense. I get it now. And then there's the times when I lean really far into the blessing and it doesn't seem like a trauma at all because I've done so much healing work and really working on that aspect of self-love and self-acceptance and self-compassion. It's trying to find that balance between that leaning where the trauma and the blessing really live right next door to each other.
They're connected and they stand together.
They 're just beautifully together, knowing that sometimes you're going to lean and things will show up. That'll go. And then other times the lean is, gosh, it really hasn't been in my mind's eye because there's so much good stuff going on. Right. The flow. Beautiful. It's like that infinity symbol, right? And it meets in the middle.
Right. And it's just trying to find a balance where you just have to stay in that middle ground. And as I increase my capacity for self-love and for that self-compassion, I can increase that some of those walls drop and allows me to let other people love me, which that is I would say my biggest hurdle has been, is that I like to exude and I like to love and caretake a lot of people. But I like to keep everybody a little bit at arms like, you can love me from right over there and not any closer. And as I'm increasing my capacity for self-love, some of those walls are really dissolving, and I'm allowing that more love to come in. And then that can get to be really scary for me. I've been married for 38 years, and even with my husband, our relationship has really grown and changed over the past, I'll even say the past year. Sometimes he almost gets gitty about it. And then that's when I'm just like, You're laughing at me, and I shut my thumb. I can see the confusion in his face, where he's just like, I'm not laughing at you I'm ecstatic that.
I- I'm joyful.
I'm joyful. And he can feel more than, I don't want to say, an even exchange because it's not what it's about, but- A deeper connection. -a deeper connection. And he gets joyous. And then I just like... That just makes me want to... But I'm learning to read. I'm like, okay, it's okay. It's okay. It's okay, Barbara.
So having children. What shifted for you having this family and these children who actually were born of your own?
I always wondered if it's as weird for everybody as it was for me. I just thought it was like I couldn't believe it was mine. I don't know. It's really hard to explain, but I just couldn't believe that they were mine. Not that you have ownership over children, but... I feel that I was bonded very well, which is I know that some mothers don't have... Some people have a hard time bonding, but I'd spend a lot of time. I slept like literally, I think both of my children were collicky and literally slept on my chest for months.
I'm so excited for you and this grandchild who you get to meet, because I told you before we got on this recording that it's inexplicable. You can't explain this type of love that you have when you have grandchildren. And I think when I'm thinking out it now as you're talking, it is such unconditional love that they give us. And we're able to flow to them because we. Really don't have responsibilities around it. It's just a pure form of... And when we're feeling lacking in love, maybe that is. Maybe there's a woman I know that I have volunteered at grief camp for 10 years with, and their son died when he was 14 and of course, absolute devastation and trauma. And then two years ago, they had a grandchild and her friend also was a bereaved parent. And they call their grandchildren little heart healers. Little heart healers have taken the broken hearts and brought them back together. I imagine that will be the same for you also with yours.
So do you work with people and help them in what you do? Is that something that you have a desire to share more?
I've been trying to figure out what that would look like, to be honest with you. And I think just the awareness about adoption or relinquishment, because I seem to have, I'm like you, literally, I think I know more adopted people or people who have adopted children than it's just they just seem to come out of the woodwork. They're all over in my circle. And I think just building awareness that these kids do have trauma, I think many of them do really struggle. I do know a few people who have adopted children from other countries, and that's been huge. They don't have the genetic mirroring, even the smells as for an infant, the smells, the sounds, and because the sense of smell is something that is one of the first, really one of the strongest senses for an infant. And so coming to a different country that sounds different, that smells different is really huge for these kids. And I think the genetic mirroring part, a lot of times they don't look like anybody else. I talked about what a big deal that was for me. And I was raised in a family where I had the same hair color and eye color and nationalities.
And so, like I said, it's so hard because it is a gift for the trauma and the blessing. And I think I'm curious as to how much information or education that adoptive parents get.
I'll have to inquire with my daughter-in-law because we haven't really talked about that. She has been working in the social services system, mainly because she was going into foster care, so she could bring our great niece to come live and ultimately be adopted. But she had a support system that probably had access to information where many don't. And so I think with a lot of what's going on.
Everywhere and the awareness that we have and so many things that this absolutely is a huge need that there probably is a pretty significant deficit because it's not something... And in schools, you probably don't talk about it a lot. As a kid, you probably didn't go around and have conversations about that you were adopted or whatever. Kids like you.
And I would like to speak to that. Yeah. That's a very interesting thing. There's something that often I find, and I'm sure you've experienced it, especially in little bit larger families who there's maybe several siblings, you also always have that sibling that's the odd duck. And what does the family say? It's my brother. We always tell him he was adopted because he's such a weirdo or he doesn't fit in. So basically, what are... And you think about that. I have heard that so many times from people. So what are you saying? They're basically saying adopted people don't fit in and don't belong. That's my brother. He's weird. He's the black sheep. He's the weird one. We tell him he was adopted because he doesn't fit in and he doesn't belong.
And you know that I've told you this story, but my brothers, because I was the youngest, the only girl came at the tail end. Your brother and my oldest brother were the same age, so there's a lot of age difference there. And they used to tell me I was adopted because I was blonde and all my brothers, my cousins, my parents were fairly dark haired and I was blonde and I was the only girl. I would dig around in my mother's papers and try to find my adoption papers because I truly believed I was adopted. I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it probably until I was later grade school or so somewhere that she had written an article that I had read then finally, and it was about my birth and when she was in the hospital, she had been an editorial for the local newspaper. And that's the only time that I finally realized that I wasn't adopted truly. And yeah, you're telling them you don't fit in, you don't belong. Yeah. Well, this has been super amazing conversation. So I'll share your information and the show notes so that people can find you out there on social media. And is there one last thing that you would like to end with? Anything that you would like on your heart to share?
Actually, when you asked me to do this, I was thinking about a while back when you and I were doing some coaching, and I did the Gallup Strengths. The Gallup Strengths.
Are they the VIA strengths?
Yes. My number one strength was connection. And when I started looking into adaption because I just like to believe that... And I thought, isn't that interesting? That that's part of my wanting to be connected to everything and to everyone because I just love to see, because I just think everything is connected like this is so interesting. You're connected to me, and I'm connected to this, and that's connected with that. I just thought that that was interesting little perspective there. And anything else? The last thing I'd like to share that if anybody, yeah, I'm open to talking or visiting, chatting with anybody about adoption, about their feelings about adoption.
What's the best way for them to What is the best form for them to reach you?
Probably you could go through my website and it sends me an email, so they would drop any information there. I can reach out and connect to them.
You want to just give your website right now? Like I said, I'll put it in the show notes.
It's my name. So it's www. BarbaraDemers.Com.
I will have that in the show notes. So thank you, my dear cousin, sister, soul sister. This was amazing. So everybody else, keep an eye out. We'll be having more of these and we'll have Barbara back on when we do the panel discussion later on. Thank you.
Looking forward to that.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Founder of MPCS Inc. with The FACTOR OF, Maria Nebres is an international bestselling published author of Love and the Highly Engaged Team, a certified trainer of Jack Canfield’s Success Principles, and an authentic success coach, blending her expertise in human relations, human resources management and personal success development for motivated individuals to realize their true leadership for abundance in soulful business and life.
Maria has been assisting people and businesses (both profit and not-for-profit) transform their lives and their organizations for over 25 years. She has successfully led and facilitated many transformational programs for employee relations and engagement, performance/success management, business and personal transitions, leveraging her passion for helping people and organizations achieve authentic and lasting success through heart-centered leadership that taps into each individual’s true passions, purpose, core genius, and talents, no matter the vocation or field of work they are in.
It is in this way that she believes the essence of the working world will heal for lasting abundance in harmony with the larger world’s healing. She promotes the vision of ease and abundance through inspiring others by doing what inspires for better results that serve.Maria has served her clients across many industries including healthcare, financial services, pharmaceuticals, management consulting, technology, food and beverage, research and development, and the public sector.
To learn more about Maria and her services, check out her website at www.factorof.com or contact her at maria.nebres@factorof.com.
Shownotes:
Hello. Thank you so much. I'm here. I'm here with Maria and it's Nebres. Want to make sure that I say that right and welcome. And thank you so much for allowing me to interview you and share your gifts and your magic to the world.
Thank you for this time. I appreciate it.
No problem. So I just want to read your bio so people can get an idea of who you are and what you're all about. So Maria is the founder of MPCS, Inc. With the Factor of. She is an international best selling published author of Love and the Highly Engaged Team, which I love because as a previous corporate executive, I was all about team building, and it was all about I know that teams are the best way to really get anything done. So I love this. I make anxious to hear all about it.
Oh, that's fantastic.
That's great. She's a certified trainer of Jack Canfield Success Principles, and most of us know who Jack Canfield is. And she's an authentic success coach, blending her expertise in human relations, human resources, course management, and personal success development for motivated individuals to realize their true leadership for abundance. We love abundance and soulful business and life. Maria has been insisting on people and businesses, both profit and not for profit, transform their lives and their organizations for over 25 years. She looks way too young to be having done this for over 25 years. It's working well for her. She's in her zone. She has successfully led and facilitated many transformational programs for employee relations and engagement, performance, success management, business, and personal transitions. She's just got this passion and she leverages that for helping people and organizations achieve authentic and lasting success through heart centered leadership, tapping into everybody's true passion, purpose, core genius, and talent. No matter what the vocation, what work that they're in, this works across all venues.
It Is in this way that she believes the essence of the working world will heal for lasting abundance, which we all know that we need, especially now, and in harmony with the larger world's healing. So it's about the healing. And that works in the corporate and the personal. So she promotes a vision of ease and abundance through inspiring others by doing what inspires them for better results that serve. She has worked across all paths. We're talking health care, financial services, pharmaceuticals, management consulting, technology, food and beverage, research and development, and the public sector. So she has a wide variety of information here. So I'm really excited to learn more about that. And Maria, I'm going to put it when I post these videos, but her website is www. Factorof. Com. And so I'll make sure that I post that her contact information for you. So Maria, wow. You have a very accomplished life that I can see from just your bio. So tell me, how did you get started in this?
It's interesting because I got started from having moved to Canada as a young girl. At the age of six, my parents decided to relocate us from the Philippines, which is my native land, to Canada, the land of opportunity. And at an early age, I grew up learning that you focus on what it was to serve the world, to serve society. I certainly grew up learning and understanding the ethics of work. And there was a certain order in which you would achieve and attain certain certain thing. So I saw it from my dad who had five jobs at the time. I saw it in my mom and the role that she played in the household. And I certainly saw it in terms of the upbringing and the discipline that we were being taught. And then at a certain age, I grew to learn more and more within a new culture, which was the North American way that I had more opportunities. I had more opportunities than just being in the house. I witnessed my mom. She loved what she did, but I wanted more because I was one of four children, the only girl. And yet the thought was that my lot in life was going to be, and there's nothing wrong with it, but was going to be to take care of home.
The culture of North America was totally different from the culture that was being instilled in me in my childhood, which was, it's okay for you to stay at home and take care of family. I wanted something a little bit more. So I ended up going through my education and then finding that I had this natural extra love for being with people. I'm not much of an extrovert, but I certainly love people. And so I fell into sociology, which I ended up really loving, landed in human resources, and then the story began of my life. I love to help individuals really around. The reason why I like sociology is it is the study of the psychology of what motivates people to do what they do in relation with other people. That fascinated me. Human Resources at the time presented for me that right training ground. I naturally fell into it, manifested it, I suppose you would say. I haven't looked back since, except that it grew my interest more and more for how could I serve more in a larger capacity? And that landed me into the work that I did with Jack Canfield. I experienced in the corporate world this thing that I believe a lot of people go through, which is burnout and not quite knowing how to perform and still be highly engaged.
So when I talk about leadership issues around engagement, which fascinates me, it isn't leadership from a role function standpoint so much as it is leadership from a universal standpoint. And who actually owns it is every single individual. So I have that passion to want to share that message. And with whatever truth that I have from the experiences that I gained, I dealt with my burnout from having transformed myself from personal development. And I swear by personal transformation work, when you do your inner work, everything external to you starts to make a lot more sense and a lot easier. Because really, the challenges that we face is really around the relationships between individuals. So that's part of why I felt that I was in a position to be able to pivot myself after having earned my stripes of really understanding process and structure, the structures we create. And then how do we play within that structure? And how do we allow for the malleability that really life is all about? So would it really matter if we were talking about the workplace? Not necessarily. It's really about you, the common denominator and the environment you choose to enter.
So that brought me to this big aha moment after having done my transformation work and deciding that I was going to go through. My first big breakthrough was opening up my own practice at a very young age and deciding, no matter what anybody told me, no, you still need more years. Well, that was 17 years ago. I took that leap of faith and I trusted myself. 17 years later, I went through major milestones of wanting to achieve one breakthrough after another. And I called the shots on it. And I'm so proud of it that I really want to share with individuals who have the same spark and spirit to really understand what it is and what it takes that's inherent in all of us. So I had to obviously prove that point. And that's what inspired me deeply to write my first book. Wow.
Just just amazing. And you just shine. I'm just watching you. And you're just, you know, this light and this passion is just shining out on the screen and everything. And you resonate for me because as I said, I spent 25 years. I'm a registered nurse by background, but I spent 25 years in the corporate environment. The last many years, probably half of my career in executive roles.
Right.
So when you talk about the leadership and all of that, it was. I was getting to that point that, Gosh, this just isn't doing it for me. And so I had to go deep. I had to go deep and really decide what's my next journey in life. And that actually led me to becoming a life coach. But I would really like to hear, I'm assuming that you have some steps or something. How do you know when you're working with individuals and organizations, what are the key components of starting to do that inner work?
Yeah. So my book is really centered around because everyone seems to want a system and everyone seems to want a process. And certainly it does help in terms of knowing that it could be as simple as really the reason why we have process and frameworks is so that we can do something repetitively. And there is value to the repetition because it creates a sense of discipline. It's a sense of habit. So in a lot of the work that I've done, both in personal transformation and within the corporate structures and platforms, I blended it together to indicate that at base, you have to have some fundamental mental habits. And they have designed my eight-step process. I say that with the caveat that it isn't so sequential and so linear as what people think, because the nature of inner work is that it is messy and has to necessarily be messy. More like a matrix versus something that is so start, finish, start, finish. And if you're going to take a look at it from that process standpoint, it's going to be start, finish, back, moving iteratively. So this eight step process I have, which is really what designed my whole program or my book, the framework, and my organization.
I actually called my organization the Factor Of, because Factor of is really the acronym for some of the fundamental core bucket steps that an individual would have to have to apply in order for them to really have a good, great framework and foundation. And the entrance to that, I believe, in some of the learnings that I had from corporate organizational structure is it really requires your holistic approach, the whole entire you. And the whole entire you, many people tend to think it just as here. And then all of a sudden it turns translates into your body, into your physical hands. But somewhere in between there is going to be the cohesion with your heart. And the heart is representative beyond the physicality. It's so representative of something so much larger, which is really the foundation for what your purpose, your core purpose really, truly stands for. I call that everyone has a spirit of service. When you connect with your spirit of service, which is something that is beyond and much, much larger, almost it's on the divine side. When you get that clarity and you connect it and you reconcile it with your physicality, which is the material form, then you can do magic.
You can do magic.
Yeah. Oh, man, I hear you, sister. I hear you. The spirit of service. And I just want to share that for people who are tuning in and seeing my videos, there's a reason why I'm doing these videos. I am connected with Maria because we belong to a coaching group, which is a business coaching platform, but it is all for servant-hearted authors where we are writing books, but our books are really our platform to go out into the world and make a difference, a positive difference. And so we come from all different perspectives. But the core is, as you said, it goes right into the heart. You said that right into the heart. It's all about being heart-centered. And as a leader in big corporations, sometimes that may get lost a little bit because we're in our heads so much. We got to figure out the budget, follow the budget, figure out the strategy and the tactics and all of that. And going back into the heart is so deeply important to in that passion. And so the spirit of service. So tell me a little bit about how do you help organizations? Do you work with the individuals within the organizations?
Do you do bigger things within the organization? Organizations as groups? Tell me a little bit about your experience with that.
If I were to categorize the suite of services that I offer because that's basically what it is. I have served corporate leaders in the functions of leadership. So anywhere from a line manager to a mid manager to executive and also at the employee level, because human resources and the function of human resources touches all. In that nuance and dance, what I find is that leaders in organizations have a great opportunity and are the biggest influencers when it comes to setting the culture that you want to have so that there is unification when it comes to what this thing is that they call engagement. Statistics will show that many organizations that have employees in them, and that's really what an organization is, it's a group of people, so it doesn't even have to be corporate. If you've got a business, if you have a movement, if you have an organization, the purest definition of it is a group of people coming together for a common cause. Now, what does that take? It takes leadership, absolutely, and it takes engagement. So how do you engage beyond the inspiration of, Hey, I've got a great idea. It's how do you keep it gelled?
And so the work that I do is anywhere from there's the transactional. If an individual is looking for transactional solutions, my transactional solutions obviously would be in my core technical experience around anything thing involving the resources of humans for humans. So I challenge leaders in the work that I do with them with the language that they end up transposing in terms of how do they lead people. It starts first off with this term called human resources management. There is this misnomer that human resources management means that you're managing the people. And in this new paradigm that I'm trying to really move, it's let's move away from defining things that really limit high engagement. High engagement, the single biggest source for high engagement is love. And when you love and you are able to translate that down into an organizational across multiple people for a common cause. It isn't about managing them. It's about what you're managing are the resources that support humans. So a lot of the work that I do with leaders is really understanding that their intentionality or their intentional approach to the culture that they really are committed with. And part of that commitment has to start, in fact, all of the commitment must start to start from within.
So it must start from the leader. So I do a lot of work with the leader to make sure that their vibration and their ripple effect is that whole term in corporate, can you walk the top walk and can you talk and can you talk the walk? And that is directed at the leader. And then what are you modeling out so that you're also encouraging folks to do that? Certainly in this day and age and in these really uncertain times, which will become the norm, and the norm is really going to be business unusual. It's not going to go back to the business usual. Why? Because we've been gifted with so many lessons in just a mere three, four months now.
Yeah, things have changed dramatically. The face of organizations has changed dramatically. And I just love that love. I hang on to my little crystal here. But that love is the center of this because we don't think about that in organizations. But you're right. It doesn't have to be an organization. It's getting together and all being there for a common cause. And that's where we make a difference in the world. And everybody brings... I know for me, I always said I could walk away from my job and know that everything would just run so smoothly because the people that I worked with, yes, in the structure, they reported up to me, but they didn't. We were a team. And so everybody brought their strengths. And so it was just so fluid. And so I was able to exit gracefully. Everything still is just flowing just beautifully. And that's what it's all about. So I wanted to go to there was something that you had written in it. We had communicated a little bit back and forth, but talk to me a little bit about compassion fatigue. You had used that term and I thought, Oh, I just really love that term.
And I'd like to hear your perspective on that. And how do we bring that to people, not only into their homes and into their own hearts, but into the workplace? And what does that mean?
Right. So certainly I find that in many organizations, when you're faced with having to help other people in their own grieving or trauma, and that happens in the workplace as well, certainly I've had and I've experienced many leaders going through their burnout. Even in the health care sector, let's say, I'm reminded of some of the physicians and the nurses who have experienced that compassion fatigue because of the work, the work that they do. But certainly a leader goes through that as well when they're leading individuals who are facing mental health issues. Mental health issues, by the way, isn't necessarily just resorted, like reserved for people who are clinically diagnosed something. It's when something is something destructive at the personal level is affecting an individual and you still need them to perform. So how do you deal with the compassion fatigue is having that dance and that conflict where a leader doesn't know what to do. They're experiencing it and they're feeling the vibration of the individual's grief or trauma, the effects of those base emotions. So we do a lot of work in terms of understanding what is compassion, first off. But in the end, compassion requires to give it, it requires having a full supply for yourself.
I helped to navigate my clients to really remembering and putting in place their tools around self care. Because self care should really be translated into soul care. Because when you're doing self care, the essence of the spirit of service, the spirit of work, does not come from your hands. It's from your essence. And compassion happens to be one of them. So when an organization commits to putting at the business table the value of love, you get certain attributes and the demonstration of certain attributes that will deplete from your essence. And compassion just happens to be one of them. I'm not sure in the United States. I believe you guys have, and I'm using an example. In Canada, they instituted laws for protecting and providing support programs for violence in the workplace, which included domestic violence. And I think the reason for it was because an individual would enter a workplace and they had issues, suffering issues like domestic violence and the mental health issues that come across that and the obligation of an organization. So that is already pretty highly emotionally charged then you get an employee who's experiencing it and a leader who's needing to manage that whole process.
Compassion fatigue can occur. Self-care in general is really where would address certain fatigue at the emotional level that an individual would face. I used compassion as one example. Certainly, it wouldn't have to be something as specific and as traumatic as that. It could also be that the organization is going through so much high change, and how do they deal with the emotional charges and the varying degrees of emotional attachments that maybe themselves are going through and their employees. But that's with everyone as well. When someone wants to start off a business and they're an entrepreneur and they're looking for, I don't really know what I'm going to do or what I'm supposed to do, it's a highly emotional charge. And then you think this individual is probably going through their own fatigue because they're not managing their emotions. And it's okay to manage your emotions. Now, emotional management doesn't mean you repress. So we go through that in terms of explaining that emotional intelligence factor comes into play as well. So we do talk about strategies around managing your emotions as part of that compassion fatigue mitigation.
That's so beautiful. And as you're talking, I'm just thinking a couple of different things. With this whole idea of in the workplace, I remember at one point, one of my managers who reported to me was having some significant issues with her son. And it was very distracting for her, very challenging for her because of what he was going through. And so that's where we just needed to sit and to be the compassionate leader to understand what she was going through and knowing that her team and what she needed to provide there in the organization was still important to her. So I was telling my daughter-in-law that I remember her son needed to be transported to a treatment facility. And it was another one of these layers of her grief and her stuff that was going on in her life that was pretty constant. And I finally just said, I'm going to go get him and I'm going to transport him because you just just want you to sit here and just be able to just breathe. And I know just how tough this is for you because when you're in the middle of it and the codependency and all of that, so please, let me step in and help you with that.
You can stay here and just breathe. And she was so appreciative. And it didn't take much. I just got in my car and picked him up and took him. But it made such a difference for both of us because I felt like I was really serving in such a bigger way for her and him. And that she could just because she had this grief that was going on and this trauma and just couldn't even see throughout all of that. So it's so important in the workplace that.
It is.
Take a look at that. And I also appreciate that you're talking about entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, of which I'm one in my coaching business. This is why we have coaches. This is why we do what we do because Mary Ann Williamson, I'm in a group with her, and she'll say something like, You can't preach yourself. We as coaches even need coaches because we need to understand that there is some compassion fatigue even going on with us because we may not be uncertain. We're not the expert in everything. And so that's one thing that I really want to get across here for everybody who's listening. Now, this is important for people like Maria to bring into your organizations, even if you're a one person organization or if you're a large corporate organization, bringing in someone who really has an understanding of this bigger picture. And as executives and leaders in organizations, serving with your heart needs to come first. I mean, this is what's going on in the world right now. Absolutely. All this stuff that's happening.
We can say.
Oh, this is horrible. This is horrible. And I'm like, oh, I think this is just pretty amazing because the paradigms are totally going to be blown apart. What felt like an implosion of the world is actually opening up and creating this heart spaced life that we all can lead in. And it's just a beautiful thing.
Absolutely. And on I find that though we are renewing and changing, there is something that's really certain that we will always face. And that will be in a perfect world, we could have conversations like this where we pick out something and we solve it or we get the clarity around it. But in the real world, in the reality of life, everything happens. And for every single human being, there is a true leadership in them. And there must be. They must be able to tap into it. For all these things, how do you replenish your resilience? Your resilience is how you can bounce back whenever challenges come your way, because challenges are so inevitable if you're really truly living. The plus side of knowing about life in terms of committing that you want to thrive and you don't want to just survive. We must survive. Our bodies are in our brains and our whole being protects us all the time. But I believe that what's happened is that we have conditioned ourselves to believe that every single thing is a crisis. It's wearing out like this rubber band where you keep stretching it, stretching it, stretching it, and it's not going to have its resilience.
A rubber band's resilience is that it goes back to its original form. But when we are not replenishing it, one of the things that can help to replenish it is to understand and to understand the kinds of supports, and that's through awareness. So awareness is a very big part of the coaching that we light workers and spiritual workers and any health and wellness practitioner would highly recommend. It starts with a level of awareness. What are you aware of and how are you going to be able to orchestrate your own levels of support because of the known. And the known is to thrive and to live in life in a thriving way. You have to understand that the demos will happen. The level of discernment is going to always happen where you're going to have to be pressured with choices to make because you can't move forward without making choices. And so therein lies the whole dichotomy of being blessed with the fact that we have the capability of creating, we have the capability and will of being able to choose whatever comes our way. So why not maximize on it? And there is a way to it.
And each of us in the work that we do, which is what I love about this community for a new paradigm of shifting for all of us, humanity, understanding what our source is for really healing the world. We all got that capability. Would require that understanding. And sometimes you would need absolutely you can't do it alone. And that's the whole thing I love about the collective. I must have spent in the last 2-3 years, I invested big time on my continued, ongoing transformation supports. And that's not something that anybody can determine for you, but they can offer it to you. And this is why I love these types of platforms. And I truly appreciate that you welcomed me for this chat. Yeah.
And I just want to say there's one thing that I just want to put out there in know? We talk about spirituality or going deep and into the spirit and the essence of who we are. And organizationally and in the in our jobs and whether it's corporate or whatever, this is all part of it. We all are these divine human beings. So if you're in a corporate environment and it's like, oh, you can't be talking about that, or you're voodoo, you're crazy because you've got this stuff, that isn't what belongs here. I call BS on that because the only way that we're really going to survive and heal humanity, which is every one of our responsibility ability is to tap into that wisdom that's within each of us, that heart centered space and allowing all of the people that we're in contact with to allow their hearts to shine and to share their beautiful wisdom. Because this is how we learn is through each other. Absolutely. It doesn't matter if it's the person working in the mail room. It doesn't matter if it's the CEO at the helm and everybody within that continuum. This is all about humanity and it is about heart.
So for the people that are watching, say, on my LinkedIn channel and you're going, Pat, what are you doing? It's like stepping up to do here. This is the that so of us that we're here to change the world, baby. We're here to change it in a great way, right?
That's right. I take this from my experience within the corporate world to run a business, I'm not suggesting that there is no value for structure because you definitely do need structure. You definitely need to have clarified roles of accountability and commitment. And when I say accountability, you need to understand the difference between responsibility and accountability as it pertains not just to rules, but individuals. And there are so many simple ways. It's just a matter of whether or not all of us are willing to let go of what it is that we need to let go of. And that is the part of the journey and adventure that is so enriching for an individual when they do work with coaches in the spaces that we are in, which is really transformational. If you're afraid, and I'm saying this to the audience, if you're afraid of the word and it just doesn't feel good with you because it's voodoo, as you would call it, words like soulful or spiritual, then call it what you want to call it. The individuals that will help you through it, there is an understanding that when you go and choose for the right coach, that they understand your space, first off.
Because we live in a time right now where it's both feet on two different paradigms. If you want to thrive, you have to understand that you're always both feet on two different platforms. There is the platform of what you know today, and there is the platform of what you want to have tomorrow. When you are doing Matt dance, there are basic things that you are saying heaven yes, or hell yes to committing. Make sure that you do the homework that you do. The homework that you do, and that I'm speaking of is that inner homework. The inner homework that if it resonates for you, if the person's dynamic resonates for you, then chances are, explore it because there is something to be said there because it is essence that is aligned in you both.
Well, thank you so much. We do need to get going here. But I just thank you so much, Maria, for sharing your essence.
Thank.
You. I wish I would have had you there many years ago when I was doing my thing in corporate America and that type of thing. But your essence is beautiful. I appreciate what you're bringing to the world. And I hope that everybody else has an opportunity to look at this. And I will have all Maria's information so that you can contact her. You can go to her website, you can check her out. And just thank you so much.
I appreciate this time. I really appreciate it. And you know what? Divine timing had it so that it was perfect that we were meeting today on this. Absolutely. I'm grateful. Take care. All right. Bye bye.
Take care. Peace out.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Karen Lorre studied psychobiology (how the mind affects the body) in college. She has had a lifelong interest in psychobiology, epigenetics, neuroscience, health, and spirituality. She has studied the Science of Mind since 1985, has been meditating consistently since 1991, and has studied the Law of Attraction since 2009.
While still in college, Karen found she had a natural gift for receiving direct communication and downloads from the Infinite Loving Divine and intuitive clarity. Karen is an actress and has done over a thousand hours of TV, films, and commercials. As an actress, Karen observed how when she played different characters, her body would respond in different ways. Karen had some intense emotional and physical challenges that caused her to seek answers.
This led her to discovering ways to transform her fatigue and pain into vibrant energy and chronic pleasure. It led her to become so steadily in love that nothing can stop her. Karen now teaches others how to transform their own emotional and physical fatigue and pain into vibrant energy and chronic pleasure. Karen now lives in chronic pleasure and pure love and has all the energy she needs to do what she wants.
She has no stress; nothing is challenging for her now. Karen’s work has been endorsed by Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Bruce Lipton, Dr. John Jaquish, Gay Hendricks and many more.
If you are interested in having Karen send you her books, you can reach Karen at: karenlorre@me.com.
If you are interested in learning more about grief coaching with Pat Sheveland, go to www.healingfamilygrief.com.
Shownotes:
Hi, everybody. I am so, so super, super, super excited because I get to visit with Karen Lorre today. This is really special. I've known her for, I feel like, a really, really long time, but we've never really connected face to face. I guess this is face-to-face. It would be so cool if it was person-person-to-personto- person physically, but we're not doing that right now. But as many of you know, I'm doing these little fun interviews with people that I've connected through my business coaching program. I know we all are authors and we all have our programs. I don't want to call programs, what we want to bring to the world. It's how we want to bring our open our hearts and just share with the world. And so this is a group of authors, and many of them said, Yeah, I'll raise my hand. I'd love to have you interview me. And then I'm just sharing it across my platforms and hopefully that it just connects for all of you. So, Karen, let me tell you first. Thank you. I am so appreciative of having you here.
Thank you. It feels wonderful to be with you, Pat, and so happy to connect with your wonderful people. Thank you
So let me tell you a little bit about Karen. Okay. So Karen studied psychology.
No. Psychobiology
Oh, it's psychobiology. I'm sorry. My eyes got that wrong. Thank you. Thank you. How the Mind Affects the Body. She did that in college, and she's had a lifelong interest in psychobiology, epigenetics, which I love, neuroscience, health, and spirituality. It's that whole package.
And she studied the science of mind since 1985. Now you would look at her and think, no, she was way too young in 1985 to even be thinking about stuff like this. But this is the beauty of all the work that she does is she just keeps getting younger and younger and younger. And she can teach us all about that. She's been meditating consistently since 1991, and she studied the law of attraction since 2009. So she truly has immersed herself and her whole being is about all of this. While she was still in college, she had a natural gift for receiving direct communication and downloads from the infinite, loving, divine, and intuitive clarity. Karen is an actress and has done over a 1,000 hours of TV films and commercials. One Life to Live? Correct?
You can speak, Karen.
I didn't know that that was the question. Yes, I did One Life to Live for four years, but lots of other shows.
Lots of other things, too. But just for people that are soap opera fans, you may recognize her.
Yeah.
Go ahead sorry
I was just going to say one of the Tinas because there was quite a few.
Tina morphed a bit.
Tina morphed. She had life transformational experiences.
As we all do. Yeah. So as an actress, Karen observed how she enjoyed playing different characters, and she found that her body would respond in different ways. And so she had some pretty intense emotional and physical challenges that caused her to seek answers. And once she starts telling her story and she talks about her books, you absolutely have to read her books because there's so much amazing information. Just hearing her story is not even amazing. It's just so incredible and so deep and just so much there. This led her to discovering ways to transform. She had a lot of challenges with fatigue and pain, and she learned to transform that into what she says, vibrant energy and chronic pleasure. That's what Karen is all about. Before you get to know her, you just start wanting to get into this energy with her. So she now lives in chronic pleasure and pure love, which I know for a fact, and has all the energy she needs to do what she wants. She has no stress. Nothing is challenging for her now. And her work has been endorsed by some of the people that are pretty notable, Dr. Deepak Khopra, Dr. Bruce Lipton, Dr. John Jockish, is that how you say it?
Daquish.
Daquish, Gay Hendrix, and many, many more. She's had a very story life, even outside of her acting career, that she can maybe talk a little bit about. But again, Karen, it's just a joy to have you here and to help you share with whoever's listening throughout all the platforms that were on a little bit about yourself. I guess I would like you to just start, because you are the intuitive. What is it you would really like to share today with us? Let's go down that path a little bit.
Well, I know a lot of people suffer when someone dies or if someone gets hurt or when something happens. I know we have this whole situation going on in America and probably other places in the world where people, like black people who have been persecuted and had had incredible injustice, where they're suffering and where there's some police brutality. Not every policeman is that way, but some policeman are doing that. I know that grief comes from so many different ways. One of the things that I've recognized is that when I had an experience where I lost my father, passed away, my best friend ex boyfriend killed himself, and I got subpoenaed to be in a trial against a church I went to when I was just a teenager, just as for part of a youth group because the minister had been a pedophile and all of the counselors that he hired had been a pedophile. And so all of this conspired. And I was in such a state of grief about my dad and then about Donny who was the man who killed himself that I couldn't function. And I remember people would call me and I'd say, I can't.
Whatever it was, I couldn't make plans. I couldn't commit to anything because I just didn't know how I feel. I had no energy. My body got so weakened. And because of the way I've studied where I've studied Psychobiology, which is how the mind affects the body, epigenetics, and meditation, and a little bit of neuroscience and all these different things. What I started to realize, and because of my experience with acting, where I literally saw the world shift when I was a different character and my body shift when I was a different character. I saw this happen so consistently as an actress because sometimes you're playing one character one week, another character another week, another character another week, then you have a break for a couple of weeks, and then you play another character and every character is different. I would notice how just being a specific type of character, let's say I was playing a character in grief, the world responded to me one way. When I'm playing a character who's happy, the world responded another way. When I play a character who's bitchy, the world responded in another way. I really got that it had nothing to do with the world.
It had to do with what I was emanating in the world. When I was feeling all that grief, I didn't know what I know now, but what ended up happening at a certain point, and I stayed in that grief for probably a decade, and I wanted to kill myself. It was just so debilitating to feel that intense sadness. Then at a certain point, I had the experience of being very intuitive since I remember it since I was in college. It probably happened before, but I didn't pay any attention to it. And I started to perceive the presence of Donny, the ex boyfriend, best friend who had killed himself. And I perceived him and what he explained to me, and I was still sick at the time, I got really sick because the grief that I had experienced, it cannibalized my body. It took away my energy. I got diagnosed with narcolepsy. My adrenals were so depleted that the doctor said he'd never seen worse adrenals in 30 years. My thyroid was off and my hair was thinning and I had to wear glasses to read. I had so many things going on. There was much more than that.
I had chronic pain. All of it was going on. I had now at this point, I'd been married when my dad and when Johnny in the court case, all of that happened right at the beginning of when I got married. We were married for 10 years, but at this point, we were getting divorced. I'm living in a small apartment and I can barely get out of bed, but I'm trying to feel better. When I would be in that place where I would either just be waking up or just be falling asleep, I heard different energies communicating with me, or I felt them. I don't know if it was actually sometimes it's audible and sometimes it's just a knowing and sometimes it's kinesthetic and sometimes it's a vision. One of the things that happened was I kept hearing, Donny, when we had been dating, and this was when I was in my 20s, he had written a song for me that one of the gogoes sang. It was called I Feel the Magic. He had told me he had written it for me. He would sing it to me all the time in real life. While I'm lying in this bed, right between sleep and wake, before I started actually thinking my normal, habitual thoughts of grief, I would hear this song and I didn't understand why I was hearing it until maybe eight or 10 months later when I realized it was a way of Donny to communicate with me.
Johnny was in non-physical and what he was communicating to me was that even though he had killed himself and I had all these ideas that, oh, somebody who kills himself, they're going to be suffering in the afterlife. They're going to be in a lot of pain in the afterlife. I just had imagined him like that. What he said was that that was completely wrong. He actually said that every... And this is very controversial, so forgive me, and it might not sound like a very compassionate thing to say, but he was dead when he was saying it, so I'd hope that I interpreted it correctly. So I'll just say it and then whatever. He said that every death is a suicide. I said, What do you... He said, And everybody, when they die, they go into immediate love and joy and freedom. Let everybody let go of all the physical pain, the mental pain, resentment, fear, grief, sadness, anger, all of that stuff. I remember thinking, Wow, that's amazing. I couldn't believe how his energy was so high and loving and happy. I could feel him literally feel him being proud of me. He would communicate this understanding to me.
When I said to him, but every death is a suicide, what do you mean? What I got was that everybody's making... They might not be conscious of the choice. We have a lot of desires that are unconscious that we're not even aware that we're desiring them. He said that even what's happening is a lot of times people will have some desire. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to live like this. Oh, this is making me sick. This is sucks. It's sickening what I'm doing, or it's sickening what that person is doing. Then their body listens to that and starts to become that. Johnny said that every single person that has ever passed away has always gone into pure positive joy and that they never have died accidentally. I couldn't believe that since I had so many people in my life that had passed away. I just kept asking him about it. He said, People, they aren't conscious a lot of times of what they're wishing. For example, one of my best friend, she just passed away almost a year ago. She was my age. We looked a lot like people thought we were sisters, but she had an Austrian accent.
She was from Austria. She had a husband that she loved with all her heart, but she knew he was unfaithful. He kept giving her venereal diseases. She had two children that were grown up and that she loved. He worked far away from the... He worked in other countries. He was a director. And so he would be gone for sometimes months at a time. And she would go into anxiety because she knew he was having affairs. And she never... She would ask him to stop it. She asked him to go get help and do all that stuff. And he went, but he didn't get the help he needed. And what she did was she pretended she was fine. But what she would tell me is he makes me so sick. So what happened? She got sick, got extremely sick and she got pancreatic cancer, which is... The pancreas is what takes care of your insulin, which is what you do, what you need when you're eating things that have sweetness and things that don't. Your pancreas monitors the sweetness in your life. And so she was being to the world, fake sweet. And her body was hearing her say, Makes me sick.
I can't stand what he's doing. It's so sickening what he's doing. And she just got weaker and weaker and weaker. And I could see this happening. She would also go awol for months at a time. So I wouldn't always have the ability to communicate with her. But one time when she was going awol before she actually got sick, this is maybe 15 years ago, and she only got sick in the last, like, diet a year ago, and she got sick maybe a year and a half before that. But she... Sorry if I'm talking so long.
No, this is beautiful. Thank you. I'm just mesmerized.
By it. Okay, thank you. So this was maybe 15 years ago, and I was home alone, and I was in that nappy, half nappy, half awake state. And I got this message that I realized was from her dad. I'd never met her dad. He was dead before I ever met her. But I knew it was her dad. And he kept saying to me, tell her I'm proud of her. Tell her she did the right thing. And I was like, what? Tell her I'm proud of her. Tell her she did the right thing. And so I got out of bed and I tried to dial her phone number, but it went. I didn't know it, but she was in Austria. And so it just went to that weird dial that happens when you're dialing in another country and they're not answering and you can't leave a message. So I decide to email her, and this was 15 years ago, so maybe phones are better now. And this was before WhatsApp, or at least before I knew about WhatsApp. Anyway, so I email her and I said, Hey, hey, love. I'll just keep her anonymous since I was talking about her husband and everything.
Hey, love, I think I got a message from your father. And he kept saying, To tell you that he's proud of you, you did the right thing. He's proud of you, you did the right thing. So I don't hear from her. And then the next day, I get a phone call and she's like, Karen. And I'm like, What's going on? And she said, I'm in Austria. And then she tells me the story about how when her father had died, he had given her just two brothers. And there's a brother and his sister had given just her this particular house that had been in the family. And she had always felt guilty about that. So she was in Austria, and she had before, maybe a couple of years before, she had given her brother and her sister to be part of the ownership. And now she found out they'd been doing something that wasn't right, that was going to get her in trouble, something that was potentially illegal or something like that. I don't know the specifics of what it was, but she said that she had just signed the papers to remove them from ownership of the house and she was taking back full ownership and that she was in her hotel room crying on the bed, lying on the bed on her belly and saying, Daddy, please give me a sign.
I'm doing the right thing. I feel so terrible. Give me a sign. I'm doing the right thing. Oh, my God. I feel so terrible. When her father was telling me to tell her, I'm proud of you. You did the right thing. I'm proud of you. You did the right thing. He was answering her prayer. What she said to me was she told me that whole story. Then she said, I got the email and I knew I had done the right thing. And she was so thankful. And she brought me all these flowers when she got back in the States. And we had this really great connection. And what was interesting is that when I was at her funeral last year, I met her family and I had not met them before. I met her brother and her sister and their partners. I told them that story and they all went white. I said, What's going on? And they said, We always thought she was being selfish. We didn't know that she was being advised by her father. I saw them see how their resentment of her had been unnecessary. And that thing where I've picked up the energy of someone who's non physical has happened so many times.
Another time, just one of my clients, I coach people, I help people release unconscious blocks so they can have amazing, priceless results. But one of my clients, her husband had died very suddenly, and she hadn't talked to me too much about it because we'd been dealing with just her specific things. So she hadn't talked to me about him too much. I didn't know much about him, but I was not working with her at the time, but I could feel him and I knew it was him. I don't know how I knew it was him. It's just a knowing. I knew it was him and he was singing the song. I don't know this song actually, but it's Come on Baby, Let the Good Times Roll. I don't know how it goes. Sorry, there's something in my eye. But he was singing this song and he just said, Come on, baby, let the Good Times Roll. And he kept singing just that one line over and over and over again. I was like, I got that he wanted me to tell her that. I texted her and I said, Hey, I got a message from I think it's from your husband.
What did it say? I said, It says, Come on, baby, let the Good Times Roll. And then she doesn't text back for 10 minutes. And then the phone rings and I pick it up and I'm like, Hello? And she's here and it's, Hey. And I said, Yeah, what's up? And she said, My husband and I sing that one line of that song to each other multiple times a day as we would pass each other, if one was sitting down and reading and the other one was walking by, we just touch him to the light on the shoulder, Come on, baby. Let the good times roll. As we're making dinner, Come on, baby. Let the good times roll. As one of us wakes up, Come on, baby. Let the good times roll. It happened so consistently that, of course, if that's his way of communicating with her, that he's alive and well and come on, baby, let the good times roll, that she doesn't have to be because she was struggling with the grief. What I've seen is that if the reason I've been able to contact or be in contact, be receptive, I don't really contact them.
They seem to contact me. But the reason that I've been able to do that is because you have to be in the same frequency as someone who is non physical, like they're like a satellite and you're like the radio station. And if you're on radio, Hey, grief, you cannot hear the station of radio, Hey, love. It's a different frequency. And so you have to turn the dial on your energy in a way to get into a place where you're more in a place of appreciation or love or fun or happiness. That energy is the energy of the people who have passed, even babies, even puppies, even kittens, even horses, anybody, children, grandparents, parents, everybody goes into this place. There's no middle place. There's no... What do people call it where they're dead but they're not dead? Limbo. There's no limbo, none of that. It's just immediate. There's a principle in physics. It's one of the laws of thermodynamics. And the law is energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It can only be transformed or transmuted. I might be saying it slightly wrong, but that's the essence of the...
Exactly right.
Oh, thank you. But yes, that's the essence of that thermodynamic law. And so the energy of me, the energy of you, the energy of the energy of all of us, we have a frequency that is our personality energy, and then we have the frequency of our spirit energy. Those two energies aren't always the same. They might be at two different frequencies, but when someone dies, it's just the energy of their spirit. You still know it's them, but it's the energy of their spirit. Another experience that happened, which is so funny, I was driving and I heard my husband and I were just getting divorced and our dog had passed away a year before because animals take on our negative emotion. And so if you are dealing with grief and you have animals, another reason, besides just wanting to talk to the people that you've lost, another reason to get happy is because it'll make your animals healthier. Because animals are just, they want to support us. They're so amazing. But so our dog had died and I was driving home late and I had a car, like a sports activity vehicle. I had a large back part and I heard a dog running in the back, but I don't have a dog in the car.
I pulled over and I go look in the back of the car and I don't see anything empty. I get back in the car and I haven't started it yet. I'm still parked and I feel the energy of my dog. His name was Ruben and I feel him all over licking my face. Licking my face, licking my face. I'm like, Ruby, oh, my God. I feel so good to see you or feel you. I love you so much. How are you? And then he kept saying to me that I have to call my ex husband because he's going to get a dog and the dog is going to be him. And I'm like, I'm not going to tell him that. I was like, no, he already thinks I'm a wack job. I'm not going to do that. So I kept saying no, no, no. And I go to bed that night and he's still licking me all over. You got to call him. You got to call him. You got to call him. So I wake up in the morning and I'm supposed to go play on the beach with some friends and I hear Ruben, You got to call him.
You got to call him. You got to call him. I'm like, Oh. And so I just like, All right, fine. I pick up the phone and I call my ex husband on a cell phone. He answers the phone and I said, Hi, is this an okay time to interrupt? And he said, Yeah. He goes, I'm just in the car with his daughter. I'm just in the car with her. I said, Oh, that's great. I said, I think I got a message from Ruben. And he's like, What did he say? I said, He said you're going to get a dog and it's going to be him. There's long silence. And then he goes, We're driving to Santa Barbara to pick up a dog. I got off the phone as quick as I could. And so Ruben was right. I needed to call him to let him know that Ruben was coming back, that it was going to be Ruben. And the thing that I've seen over and over again, I had another experience the other day a couple of weeks ago. It was probably before the Coronavirus thing. So it's maybe a couple of months ago. And I was out with somebody that I hadn't known before.
I just had met him and we were talking and he said that his wife had passed away a year ago. And I said, Oh, wow. He said, How are you doing with that? And he said, I miss her every day. And I said, Do you ever feel her presence? And he said, No, not at all. And then I just looked at him and I said, Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, life is but a dream. And he looks at me, his eyes go wide and he says her name was Merrily. And I have a picture of her on my bedside and the frame says Merrily, Merrily, Merrily, life is but a dream. I look at that picture every day and I miss her. He was white. I said, Well, maybe we connected with her. He's like, and he starts crying. It was so beautiful. Then yeah, so that stuff, whether it's dogs or people, I've had it so many times that it's just become these so many stories of that stuff. What I'm trying to say through all of this is that there is no is no death. What we call death is really energy being transformed from physical into a non-physical energy.
That energy of who we are has a signature that is somehow knowable, but it's not the personality of the person in the sense of it doesn't have any of the same resentments, none of the same limiting beliefs, none of the fears, none of the concerns, none of the anger, none of the physical symptoms. It is in a place of total fullness and freedom and wellness. I know this for myself, and I'll just stop talking after this little bit, but when I was in my teens, I was asked to do a modeling job on a sailboat while I had sailed to Hawaii. I know the ocean. I lived on the ocean. I like the ocean. I'm not afraid of the ocean. I feel great in that thing. But they wanted me to do something called spinnaker flying, which I'd never done before. I have weighed most of my life about 108 pounds. It's a gusty day. There's about 40 knots winds, which is a strong wind, in case you don't know knots. I don't know how to do the math of it, so 40 knots, you can look it up. Anyway, it's a big wind. As they're preparing the shot, I'm getting makeup on and I have a bathing suit on.
They're this guy goes up and he weighs probably 280, 290, maybe 300 pounds. He goes up and he's bouncing on this thing. It's basically a spinnaker flying is where you... The spinnaker is really, if you watch a sailboat, it's the sail that's the most balloony. It's like such a balloony, beautiful sail. It's taking the one point is attached to the top of the mast, and then the two points are attached to swing. It creates a triangle. You're in the triangle. He's in this triangle and he's holding on. He's bouncing around. Then he gets off and comes back to the boat and he goes, Oh, man, you're going to love it. It's great. It's a little rough. You got to hold on, but you're going to love it. I said, Okay, great. I get onto the swing and then they let go and maybe I didn't have enough of a hold or maybe I didn't have enough weight. But for whatever reason, the sail, instead of being this way and lofting me up, it went like this. And then it whipped me down onto the ocean from above the mast. And it was a 55 foot mast.
So it was probably like a 60 foot whip onto my back onto the ocean. I couldn't breathe. I got all the wind knocked out of me, swallowed water, and I started to go under. And there was a guy who jumped into the water, but he was afraid because the waves were pretty big to come towards me. So he's trying to throw a lifesaver to me. But we're probably about 30 feet away and the shore is maybe 250 feet away and the boat is again 30 feet away and I don't have any energy, I don't have any air. And so I'm going down and I get down into the water and at a certain point, something shifted and I didn't care. And I was like, Oh, my God. This is so good. And I just was feeling something within me just let go. And then I heard a voice and I felt this voice this beautiful feeling of everything being okay, all is well, so love. And then I hear this or feel this question, do you want to live or are you ready to go? I knew I wanted to live. I was 18. I still had so much I wanted to live.
The minute I had that thought, No, I want to live, this energy came through my body and I shot up. I don't know how much, but it was maybe 12 or 15 feet under the water at the point. I just had been sinking low. I somehow shot up through the water. The guy sees me. He hadn't seen me, I guess, for a few minutes. I froze the lifesaver again and it's still 20 feet away. I don't know how I got to it. I got to it like that. I don't know if I... It felt like I flew over the water, but I don't know exactly what happened. All I know is that I was down there, I made a decision I wanted to live and I got to that lifesaver in a way that I still have no idea how it happened. He pulls the lifesaver in, then he puts me over his thing, climbs up the ladder to the boat, gets me on the boat. They have to pump my stomach first because I swallowed all this water, and then they give me mouth to mouth and I can finally breathe. So I probably was eight or nine minutes without oxygen.
And so that's probably the closest near-death experience I had. But after experiencing Johnny and Rubin and my friend's dad and all these other people, those people who are now non-physical have taught me how to be in an ever-present near-death experience.
I so love this, Karen. Yes, yesterday I interviewed another one that is in our group, Dr. Petra Frese, and she talked about her near-death experiences. And you're telling the same stuff. I mean, it's the same thing that, yes, we have a choice, but once we move to that, it's all light, it's all love, it's all just absolute beautiful that.
Yes. We want to be there. But we have so much to do here. And so to be sharing this, especially for those of you who know me, I work in the grief space. I work with people who are grieving the death of their children and their loved ones. And that's my sole purpose of coming here. And so this will interest you, Karen, is this is in 2012. I had a brother who died before I was born, six years before I was born. No one ever talked about him. It was just not something that was dealt with in the home at the time. But I found out about him and I had this connection with this brother and would go to the cemetery and hang out with him. My family didn't know I did this. I'm sure they would have probably put me away somewhere. They knew that. But in 2012, it would have been his 60th birthday. My mom started allowing me to open up with her and to understand what was going on with her. And she shared about him. But I was on a plane. I was a corporate executive at the time. I was flying in a plane, going to our corporate offices.
And I had this experience where it felt like I had an electrical shock that just went through my body. And this voice, not really a voice, but it sounded like a voice that I was born through you. And I knew immediately it was my brother. And I thought, oh, that's cool. I probably already knew that all these years, but it wasn't like... But there was a deep emotion that came over me. That was so beautiful because it was like, I'm here for a purpose. He left early, but in life, he was just a baby, four months old. But it was just such a beautiful awakening. And that's what I want all of the people who are grieving the death of their loved one, that there is no death. And that's, yes, we need to grieve. Grieving is a part of our healing process. That's part of some of the things that we need to do. But staying in it for any length of time to where we're not finding that joy, we're not having that purpose, we're not having fun and doing all of that. It's almost like a disservice because our loved ones are here.
And so once you can tap in and feel them or to work with a Karen Lorre, who can most likely they're going to connect through her because she's got that vibration. She's got that high vibration where that your loved one can connect is so beautiful. And that's where I see the healing occurs when people are grieving is once they finally get that connection, like that gentleman that you're having dinner with. And it's like the veil opens. So what a beautiful, beautiful... You're just speaking my language. It's just this is... If we could let everybody know that this is what it is. And while we're here, it really is to be about joy and to embrace our bodies and to embrace our lives. Tell people what you do. Now you work with people. Can you just give us a little bit... Talk about the magic that you do working with people.
I help people release unconscious blocks so that they can really have an incredible life. I basically teach people how to live in a way like I do where it's full of love. I can give a couple of different examples of how that works for people in my life. So one client, he had been married for 12 years, and now they were separated. When he was a little boy, he'd been sexually violated and also given drugs when he was four or five years old. He had this scarring, and his marriage he was married to a woman, and his marriage was just fraught with tension and awkwardness and anger and struggle and just a lot of pain because he was harboring things that he didn't even almost consciously remember because he'd been drugged and he was so young. He didn't really understand it, but he knew it had happened just because there was a police report and his parents knew. There was something, but he never been able. He was a psychologist and he'd been to psychiatrists and psychologists and they haven't helped. I help a lot of people that haven't been helped by regular doctors or by psychologists anyway.
I work with him and within a few weeks of working with him, we clear that old trauma from when he's a little kid and he's free. Then he's starting to be happier and he's going to the world and he's connecting with people and having a good time. His wife sees him and they start to reconnect, cut to, Oh, he also had never been able to express himself and he had wanted to be a writer and he'd wanted to be a singer. He'd always felt like he was afraid to be seen. I think when you have that traumatic thing, sometimes it is hard to be seen. We worked on that. Now he's back with his wife. He is recording and putting out videos of recording music, singing, and playing music, and he's writing. H e's got his writing his inflow, and he's got a writing partner, and it's this really wonderful thing. When he got back with his wife, for a minute, his wife was... I wouldn't say minute, but when he first got back with her, she was still operating in the old paradigm. So she was still bringing in that struggle. So on the next session we had after he'd gotten back with her, he tells me about this.
So I give him a couple of things to do. And within that week between that session and the next session, he does the things and his wife transforms. So I never coached his wife. I just coached him and he just became what I did what I suggested and she totally transformed. So now their relationship is joyful and full of appreciation and sexy and fun and playful and a totally different relationship than they've ever had. It's the relationship they both had wanted but never knew how to get to. That's one example. Another guy, he had been captain of a police in a very large Metropolitan area. He'd also been in the Vietnam War. He was older and he had seen his best friend killed right in front of him. So he had a tremendous brief and tremendous PTSD. He'd been involved with the Manson murders. He just had a lot of stuff going on through his whole... He was involved as the police, not in... But he'd been the investigator on the Manson murders and all this stuff, one of them. Anyway, when I meet him, the first session, he's got all this grief, he's got PTSD.
By the end of the first session, the grief was gone. Within a few weeks, two or three more sessions, the PTSD was gone. By the time I'd done... I have a little program that I do a few weeks, depending on what somebody needs, depends on everybody's different. But with him, I think it was nine weeks. By the time we were at the seven week thing, he's like, Karen, I don't know what you're doing to me. I wake up, I'm so happy. I just want to hug everybody. I'm like a fucking Faerie. I don't know what it is. I just feel so good. My friends don't even recognize me anymore. They're making fun of me, but I don't care. I just feel so good. It's great. What was also cool is he had a son who was living with him, who had been living with him for years and who had been in depression since he was a teenager. His son was in his 50s. They'd been there for a while in this depression. He told me about his son on the fifth or sixth session. He'd never even mentioned him. I didn't even know he was there.
When he told me about it, I said, Okay, so tell me how you're handling him. I listened and I said, Okay, would you be willing to try such and such? I tell him what to do and he tries it. The next week he comes to me and he says, You're not going to believe this. I said, What? He said, I'm doing the things you told me to do. I'm just doing the things. I stopped doing the things you told me not to do, and I'm doing only the things you told me to do with regards to my son. I'm with my son. We're at the dinner table. My son goes, Hey, Dad. He goes, I'm feeling a lot better. And my client goes, What do you mean you're feeling better? You're taking different meds? What's going on? And he's like, No, it's not the meds. He goes, I just like, Dad, I'm just seeing you change. I've seen you change. And then the way you're treating me, I just want you to know I have a job interview tomorrow. His dad was like, This is the first job since... I don't know if he ever had a job.
And his dad was like, You got a job interview? And he's like, Yeah, I'm going to go on the job interview and I feel excited about it. His dad, my client, was like, He could not contain himself. He was hugging him and picking him up. It was so cute. He was so excited because... Sorry. He was so excited because this was such a change, and it was no effort for him to do it. Another client, he's been married and he loves his wife, but they hadn't been having sex for a while, and his wife was getting very negative and critical. And so I called him what to do? And he sends me a message three days later. Karen, he goes, I was doing exactly what you said to do. And he goes, this is the scenario. He says, I was with my wife doing what you said to do. She says to me, I don't know what you're doing, but whatever it is, it's working. Take my pants off. He said that their relationship has completely changed. He was in a job he didn't like. Now he's in the same job and he loves it and he can't stop loving it and he thinks he doesn't want to leave it anymore.
He just loves it so much. Even though he had hated it for decades or years anyway. I don't know if it's that old, but for a long time since he's had it, he hated it and now he loves it. Their whole marriage has transformed and then he has been getting more abundant. He got a mentor who's the wealthiest guy in his community that came to him and offered to mentor him. This stuff happens over and over and over again. Another one of my clients is in retirement and is disabled, and so they don't have a certain amount of money that was coming to them every month. Then they started having all these great creative ideas, and now they have a huge company that has fought into their ideas. Now, not only are they getting more money, but they're living their life on purpose and feeling like they're contributing in a way that they didn't know how to contribute before. Another person was on the way to getting a dialysis. I don't mean in the car, but like his doctor said, you're going to need a dialysis in the next week or two. Started working with me, and now the last time he went to the doctors this week, the doctor said, No, you don't need it.
The body is so responsive when you start to shift your emotions into a higher zone. Your ability when you are in that higher zone, to connect to those you love. One of the other things that happened was with my dad, he had died in 90, I think in 91, maybe 2000 or something like that. He died somewhere around there. I don't even remember because I was in a fog when he died because that was also when Johnny died. But anyway, so my dad died and I did not perceive him until I started to get into this more place of alignment. Johnny had already been in my life. Johnny was teaching me. I was getting more and more connection with my spirit. I was feeling better. And one night I was writing out things that felt really good for me. I was writing about, I don't remember what it was, but it was something that felt good. I was probably writing for two hours. So when you write and it's something that you're so it's so beautiful to you that you're sobbing while you write it. That's where I was. I'm sobbing and I'm writing. Then I realized it's late, so I'm going to go to bed.
I get up and I go into the bedroom. The minute I go into the bedroom, I feel my dad and I know it's him. The whole room is thick with love and it's his love. And I can feel he's proud of me. And it was so undeniable. It was so helpful. And I could feel there were all these other energies there as well that I didn't know who they were, but they were there as well. But I got my dad and he was saying, I'm so proud of you. Love you so much. I've always loved you. And then he started telling me how proud of all these things that he knew that I was doing that I've been doing since after he died. And then he has stayed with me. So one of the things, my mom, she now doesn't have my dad, and she's in her 80s now, and they were married 43 years. They would have been still married probably, but now he died 20 years ago, more or less. So he suggested to me that I write, that I get everybody that loves my mom, all my relatives, all her friends, people that worked with her, neighbors that knew her, anybody that loves her, to write a letter of what they appreciated about her to her, but send it to me.
I got maybe 40 different people sending this because the word eulogy, it actually means the study of good, the study of good. I had seen somebody use the word eulogy after somebody died. And I had thought, why wait till somebody dies to give them a eulogy? Why wait to study their good after they're dead? Let's do it now. And then my dad gave me that idea. And so then I get all these people's emails, and then I went to a company, I think it's called Blurb, and they made a hard back book, and everybody sent their pictures. I put a picture of my mom on the book, and then I put pictures of everybody that she knows and loves with their letters, everybody's letter in their picture, and then the next letter in the next picture. And so when I was doing it, my heart was so filled up because I'm reading about my mom, things that I didn't even know because some of these people knew her before I was born. Some of these people I had experiences with her that I never had. They knew her at her age. They were peers with her as opposed to being the daughter.
Or they worked with her, which I never saw her at work. So it was so beautiful for me. My vibration and my energy, my love for my mom increased so much. And I realized my dad was doing this as much for me as it was for my mom because now I could love her even more fully. But then I gave the book to my mom. I gave it to my brother. I gave the book to any of the 40 people or so that wanted it. And I have one, too. And so now if she wants to, she can just pick up the book and read somebody talking about something great that she did, or how she changed their life, or what they love about her, and see their picture. It's such a great little thing to do for somebody. I think the company I used was called Blurb. Com. My dad has come in in these ways, and I feel like Johnny comes in all the time. Johnny and my dad are probably who I feel the most, but I feel anybody that dies comes to me. I just want to share this one story, and then I'll go back and let you talk and start talking.
I was home one morning. I was actually in the middle of it. It was like two in the morning, and I woke up and I had so much energy and I thought, I've got to dance. But I didn't want to get out of bed so I had my phone there. I got my phone. Actually, I sleep with my phone in the other room, but I brought my phone in the room and I just started playing dance music on my phone. I'm dancing in the bed, just lying down but dancing, and I'm dancing, dancing, and I can feel all these energies of all these people dancing around me. I don't know who they are, but they're having fun. And what they're saying was, Oh, my God. It's so great to be here. It's so great to be non physical. We all loved each other. We all are here together. It's the perfect way because nobody suffered. It was just bam. And I didn't know what they were talking about. And so I had no idea. And then I go back to sleep eventually. And then I wake up and I'm on Facebook and I see a post that somebody made about somebody who came in and shot a gay nightclub in Florida.
And all of a sudden I started, I went, Oh, my God. And they all were right there. And they were like, Yeah, that was us. It was the perfect way to die. And I'm like, What? And I'm listening to them and they're saying it was the perfect way to die. We're doing what we love. We're with the people we love. We were having so much fun. And then boom, we're out of there and we were all ready to go. And we all wanted to go together. And I didn't tell anybody because I thought this is so politically wrong. But because I don't want anybody to go shoot anybody. That's not what I'm talking about. I want peace in the world. But they weren't suffering. And so this keeps happening when you hear things in the news. I don't really watch the news, but if I hear something like that, I often have felt the person and then I'll hear the news and I go, Oh, that's what it is. And I marvel at how they all want to talk to me. How easy it is to talk to somebody when I live on top of a mountain and people say, Aren't you scared to be here when you're all alone?
And I was like, I'm never alone. People are like, Is COVID hard for you? I'm never alone because I have so much entertainment from non-physicals because they are sexy, they are funny, they're loving, they're playful. They're my teachers, them and dogs.
I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, they come to you because your vibration is so high. It's easy to connect. It's so easy to connect. What you're bringing to the physical is how do we raise our vibration so that we can have that beautiful connection. The message that our loved ones, when they transform, transmute, when they go to that next level, non-physical level, they're happy, they're filled with joy, they're in nirvana, they're in the best place possible. That should help us in our hearts. That's such a beautiful gift that you're giving people who are grieving to know that their loved ones are happy and vibrant and always around them. Always.
There's no time that you're not connected to everyone, even people you don't remember or don't even consciously know. There's no time that you're not connected. I want to say one thing is that if you are grieving, you don't have to rush to feel better. It's okay. Where you are is perfect. But there is the possibility of whether it's gradual or whether it's sudden, there's the possibility of feeling better and better. When you get into that spot where you're... Even if you aren't in it consistently, I'm in a really consistent state of love. But even if you're not in it consistently, when you start to feel good, you start noticing things. Oh, there's that bird. That was my dad's favorite bird. And it's right here coming and looking at me and going away and coming and looking at me and going away. When you start to see little things of evidence, one of my friends always told me I was just like his mom. I never had met his mom. And we had been friends. We would see each other every couple of months. We didn't have a whatever. It was just very casual every once in a while.
I had used the screen that pops out from the top. And on the top it formed a heart. I had thought, oh, my God. The universe is romantic me. I hadn't seen my friend for months, a long time. But I kept feeling like, E-mail that to him. E-mail that to him. I was like, Why? I don't want to talk to him. I haven't talked to him. He should talk to me. I don't want to do it. E-mail him. E-mail him with that. So I email him and say, hey, how are you? I just saw this picture and I felt compelled to send it to you. It says the universe... I said, I think the universe is romantic. He pits back. He goes, Karen, do you remember how I told you how much you remind me of my mother? I said, yeah. And he goes, My mom passed away and I'm back east helping my family with all of her stuff. Then I felt her so clearly and I realized she had been telling me to send it to him. I realized it was her and she told me this whole thing about him.
I wrote it in his... Where I have his contact information, I wrote all the stuff he was telling me down. And I didn't want to tell him then because he was in a state of grief and he was trying to handle stuff. But he said after... We just went back and forth and I just told him some basic stuff, not to overwhelm and emergency. I was very gentle. But he said after that, his mom's favorite bug was ladybugs. And they started seeing ladybugs everywhere. They were just like attacking the car thing. And so he was like, Yeah, I think we are seeing her, but we wouldn't have known that it was possible if we hadn't. And so then his whole family asked him to bring some of his mom's stuff to me. So when he came back to town, he brought these things of hers that he gave to me, different clothing and different stuff like that. And it was so beautiful and so sweet. And that law of thermodynamics, I had not looked up that law. And this guy was a Harvard grad, deep, brilliant, really brilliant guy. So we went to dinner after this, several months after that email exchange.
And he says, So, Karen, he goes, You're saying that... He said, He goes, It seems like you have some connection with my mom, but how can that be? How can you when she's dead? How can you? And he goes, I need a scientific answer. I was like, All right. So I just said to her, What should I tell him in my head? And then that's when she said, Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only be transmuted or transmuted. And he put it, it was like eating, stops chewing, puts his fork down, and he goes, It's the only answer that could have surprised. Or something like it was in that vein. And I was like, Well, she knew it. I said, I didn't know that. I knew it. I'm sure I learned it, but I didn't have that line memorized. She gave it to me because she knows you, because she loves you.
Wow. I knew that would resonate for him. That was the only answer. Well, Karen, thank you so much. I could sit here and listen to you for days. I would love to have a pajama party with you and just listen to you all night long. That would be so fun.
A pajama party would be so fun.
Would that be fun. Yeah. We'll all have to. Once us authors can all congregate somewhere, we can have a pajama party. So tell everyone the two names of your books, because you have two books, and how people could contact you if they want to.
Okay, this is my second book. It's called Effortless Enchantment, and it's a memoir of magic and magnetism and miracles. It has some of the same stories that I might have told. I told New Ones, too, and it might have New Ones. It definitely has New Ones. That's the second book and it's a memoir. It's a fun book, but the memoir really is about the intersection between my life and spirit. There's a lot of stuff in there about how to get into connection. This book was my first book. It's called Chronic Pleasure and it's about using the law of attraction to transform fatigue and pain into vibrant energy and chronic pleasure. That's basically how I healed my body. I had to fire every doctor that I was working with and fire the psychologists and the psychiatrists because they were meaning well. I knew they cared, but they were keeping me sick, and I ended up working my own intuitive magic, partly guided by Johnny and partly guided by my spirit, that gave me this incredible healing where I no longer have narcole. I live in chronic pleasure. My adrenals are completely healed. My thyroid is balanced.
My hair has grown thicker. My eyesight has improved. My skin has improved. My flexibility has improved. It's crazy all the ways that your body improves when you really get into a state of steady appreciation and love. So if you want either of those books, I'd feel happy to email you either one of them. But what I would ask for you to do is send me an email to Karen, K-a-r-e-n Lorre, L-o-r-r-e@me, like you and me, me and me. Com. karenlorre@me.Com. And if you put in the subject line, your books, and then just put your name in the body of the email, you don't even have to write much, but just say whatever your name is, just so I know. Because some people's emails are like, fy632@gmail. Com or whatever. I was like, I'd like to know something. So yeah, that would be great. And then I feel happy to send you my book. And I just want you to know that the people you love and your spirit never leave you. They're always loving you. They're always improving you. They're always proud of you.
Oh that is so beautiful. So beautiful. And I can attest to your books. I love the audiobook books because I love listening to your voice talking to me. That's wonderful. So, Karen, thank you so much. Like I said, this was just a fun thing for us to get together. I've known Karen for quite a while now, many, many months and have read her books and her work, and it's just so extraordinary. She's got extraordinary stories, but it all comes from... It is all the transformation that has occurred in her life and for her to tap into her spiritual beingness and to be able to use this for anybody who would be interested in working with her. Absolutely. Get with Karen. I think I'm probably going to end up getting with Karen just because you're just amazing. You're beautiful. Just being in your presence just vibrates everything up. I thank you for that. I've just been sitting here just in such a beautiful space and beautiful energy. It comes through the waves, comes through. Thank you so much.
Thank you, Pat. Thank you. I feel so appreciative of you. You're such a good listener. I love the story about your brother, and it feels so perfect that you birthed him through you to benefit the world. I just feel so happy for people that you work with to work with you. You're such a gift and your heart is so pure and you have so much love and you're so fun. Thank you so much for asking me. I feel really blessed to know you and to be part of this.
Thank you, Karen.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
In this episode being aired during Bereaved Parents Awareness Month, please join Pat as she interviews Teresa Reiniger about her work as a coach supporting women, especially those who have experienced infertility and miscarriage. Oftentimes the grief of child loss is invisible to the outside world, leaving bereaved mothers with “silent” grief.
If you are grieving the death of your child and would like to get a free copy of Pat Sheveland's book: How Do I Survive? 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss, go to: www.healingfamilygrief.com and order your copy today.
Grief is not meant to be done alone so please reach out if you are feeling isolated or abandoned in your grief.
You can reach Pat at: patsheveland@msn.com.
#griefandlosssupport #griefsupport
Shownotes:
Hello, everybody. I am so excited that I have this wonderful guest, Teresa, who I met a few years ago when we were both at the Bereaved Parents of USA conference in St. Louis. We've connected off and on there. We just recently met up because she was interviewing me and I really wanted to interview her for our show. Hi, Teresa. Thank you for being here.
Hi, Pat.
I'm excited to be here. Always excited to talk about what we both do.
Yes, we have a lot of similar similarities in our life stories, but also in the work that we do and why we're that passionate. First, I would just like to start out and share a little bit about you with our audience. Teresa Reininger is the owner and founder of Living After Grief. She holds the grief certification from the Institute of Life Coaching and Training and a companion certificate with the National Share Organization. S he is a certified master practitioner and trainer of NLP, which is Neuro Linguistics Programming and Integrated Timeline Therapy. She is well studied in so many things that she can support people with. Having her own personal experience with her own loss and all three of her daughters struggling with infertility and multiple losses, she is a compassionate, you'll see that just a little bit, empathetic and very non-judgmental. Between her own lived experience, her wisdom, her training, she really understands and supports her clients as a grief coach. She can dive in there really quickly when she starts those relationships. In addition, as I just mentioned, we had just been on a call, but she adds tremendous value to the grieving community by offering a weekly interview of guests on her podcast called Labor Pain, the Labor Pain's podcast.
She has hosted that since June of 2020 and has released over 140 episodes. She also has worked for 15 years at a funeral home with industry leaders. I know as a certified celebrant and working in the funeral home industry, that is just a wonderful synergy with what we do in grief coach. Theresa's magic sauce of her coaching program is she is very clear on coaching versus therapy. I am so glad when I was reading this, it was like, Amen, because I teach grief coaches and train them in this. This is the big question always, especially when therapists get into the grief coaching, the biggest question is what's the difference? And as Theresa says, therapy is getting through the day. Coaching meets the client where they're at and plans for a thriving future. It's looking through into the future versus looking in the rear view mirror.
Being raised in a grieving home with 12 siblings, we were just talking about that. Oh, my gosh, 13 kids in the family has taught her to navigate her own grief and to support those grieving with every personality and unresolved or stuck grief. Her listening skills are impecable. What Theresa really does, and she's going to talk more about here is, she holds space for women who are grieving the child that they never held in their arms and those that have left this earth way too soon. Those that are grieving want to feel heard, understood and to have a compassionate companion to guide them to living again with the love that they feel amidst their grief. I so appreciate that because I always say, love and grief are one and the same. Had we never loved, we would never grieve. It's like, how do we allow our grief to coexist with the joy, the happiness, the peace so that people can go on and continue living their lives with purpose? Again, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here. And you have a big background. Let's just start. Do you want to tell a little bit more about your own story?
Sure. I can do that. I'll try to make it brief. Like I said, like you said in my bio when you were introducing me, I grew up in a grieving home. My mom, I think my first grief that I remember, I was pretty little, was probably at the age of two when my grandpa lived across the street, passed away. My dad was an only child. Crazy, right? Then he had 13.
Oh, my gosh.
I know. It really affected our household at that time because they lived across the street and were so close. Then the next that I really remember is when my mom lost our youngest sibling, which would have been 14, he was stillborn. I know recently, she just passed about seven months ago actually, but more recently I've asked her questions about that time, her grief and many things about that. The one thing I wanted to be clear with her was I didn't remember her being with us at the funeral home or at the cemetery. I asked her, I said, Mom, were you there? Because I don't remember you being there. I remember being there with my dad. She said, Theresa, I wasn't there.
I said, What? She said I was still in the hospital. That's how they did it back then. It just broke my heart to know that she wasn't there for that. Of course, it breaks my heart still. And that's that's where it started. Fast forward, lots and lots of years, losing grandparents, losing miscarriages myself. I have three girls and two miscarriages. And of three of my girls, all struggling, were diagnosed with being infertile. And then to have multiple miscarriages during that journey, a total of seven, really brought me, and at that time, thank goodness for me, I was working at their funeral home at that time, so I had support with around me. With that said, that's when my journey really became to doing my purpose and passion is what I do now, which is primarily my biggest focus when I started was the podcast to just work with women that were struggling with infertility and loss during the pregnancy and pregnancy to support them because there was so much grief in that community that I myself didn't even realize because when I had my losses, it was just like, Oh, it just happens, you move on. You're young, have more children.
It's okay. I did because that's what I was told. Then when now my daughters are going through this, me as their mother, grieving for them and grieving for their child that they're losing, was like, Whoa, these women need support. They need to be able to connect to other women so they can talk about these classes. That's where the podcast was created. That was a passion of mine to just be a vehicle, be a space where women could hear other stories and connect and just share their story because you and I both know sharing our stories brings so much healing to a person. That was born. It's little like you had mentioned, I've been doing that since 2020. Yes, in the middle of that memorable year is when I began that. Very soon after that, I'm going to say five months after that, I enrolled in my first grief coaching course because I was like, What can I do to support these women? There is so much grief. How can I support them? And the following year, all kinds of training, all kinds of courses is what I did the following year. And then the year after that is when my mom passed.
And here we are today in 2023. So that's a quick overview of my stories. Grief, and I can share with you, even having those miscarriages that I had 40 years ago when the holidays came this year with the grief of my mom, that grief came back because one of my children would have been born at Christmas.
Oh, wow.
That unresolved that... I'm like, You're trained in this. doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You intuitively hit on because my question was going to be, all those years ago and experiencing your own miscarriages and those little souls that you cannot hold in your arms and then having your daughters go through it themselves.
It's like, how much does that show up for you then? It's like, do you... We think we're going fine in life, right? And then you just spoke to it, then all of a sudden something will show up. And then it's like, where did that come from? And oh, my gosh. My little baby would have been here at Christmas time. And how old would that my baby be and all of that. That's a big deal for women and the people that are listening here and dads too. But we think it's all okay. We go on through life. Life happens. You may have more children. You may go through fertility pieces. You may choose like, I just can't go through that heartache anymore, wherever you're at. But it'll still show up. What you're doing is saying, you know what, there's support when we commune together with understanding, that is where healing occurs.
Yeah. Even being trained, I was like, Oh, it hit hard. For sure, it's all those things. And it really brought me to the unresolved stuff. And I think you call it the failed grief. It all will come back. I have friends that I can work with and that I talk to, and that's what I encourage everyone to do. Find that. You talk about this all the time. Find that support, which is so needed. Finding your tribe, finding those people. I had that. I had a vehicle, too, that I could use to help me support me through those difficult the last seven months, which were really difficult since my mom's passing. And to just encourage people to know that, what I hear all the time, am I crazy? To know that you're not crazy. Even me having lost a child over 40 years ago. I know I'm not crazy. And when I talk to my clients to just reassure them, they're not crazy. It's going to be with you.
That is one of the biggest things that I think you and I see with our clients and friends and family or whatever is like, there's this, I should be over it. This should not be showing up. Our mothers just needed to go on with their lives because both you and I were part of a grieving family and grieving mom. We just had it soldier through life or whatever. But I see in the corner, you have the book, The Grieving Brain.
It's just such an incredible book because it really talks about there's a physiological... There's things going on with the neurons and our brains and the whole... It's not just neuropsych, but neurobiology, that this is why these things will show up. Just over and over again, that's the one thing that I hear is, am I crazy? S o someone comes to you and says, am I crazy? What would you say to them?
No, you're not crazy. And a big piece of that is grief will be with them. Grief is with us. That loss is forever with us. And like you and I talk all the time with other people, the grief would not be there if there was not the love. I really emphasize that with people. You're not crazy. You just loved so deeply this person. That's where that really is rooted in the love. Society sometimes tells us what we just talked about, like, get over it. You should be over that. We want to compare ourselves to how others are grieving. When we're not grieving like them, then we put this, I've got to be crazy, like, what's wrong with me? Because I'm not grieving like them. I'm really experiencing that now with my 12 siblings. All 12 or 13 of us are grieving totally different from each other. Even though we were raised in the same household, our experiences within the household are different, and our experiences outside of the household as we become adults are totally different. Our relationships with our mother are different. To compare myself to my siblings to maybe not be as emotional as I am, or maybe when they see an item like I shared with you before we started recording, I took quilting stuff to the filters because my mouth quilted and I got all emotional and I was like, It's quilting stuff, but it just brought back so many memories.
Would that happen to my siblings if they took it? Probably not. But me, it did. To know that you're not crazy and to for sure not compare yourself to someone else is so important. So important not to compare because that I feel is where the crazy... Where we're think we're crazy comes from is because we're comparing.
And because other people offer up comparisons. And so it's like, oh, wait a minute here. I think about even my own... We're professionals in this, right? My brother died not quite two years ago, my oldest brother. Every one of us grieve differently. My grief is about the big brother who was nine years older than me that took care of me when I was a little girl and rubbed my feet when they were frozen from ice skating and took care of me because mom had to go to work when I was five, that type of thing. So he was like that adult in my life. I'm grieving that relationship that I had that he really was a caregiver and caretaker for me. My sister in law, of course, is grieving so differently because now here she is a widow and been together for 30 some odd years with my husband, I mean, with my brother. My nephews are grieving differently because it was their dad. My brothers, each one of my brothers had a different relationship with my brother. One was only 15 months. They were best friends. They were besties growing up. They ran with the same crowd.
So all of us have this different way. And there were times that I'm thinking, oh, why am I feeling this depth of grief? It would be so much worse for my sister in law. She was married to him for 30 some odd years. And then I would have to, Okay, Pat, go back to what you know.
Yeah, a reminder.
Yeah. But you mentioned something earlier, even those of us who this is what we do in our life's work, it's still going to hit us. W e have to lean into other people and into tools and resources and that type of thing. Tell me, when you're working with someone, what are some of like, you talked about finding your tribe, that type of thing. But what are some of the other key tools that you believe are really helpful, especially for these women that are really dealing with a loss? Sometimes the loss is so through miscarriages, you may not have, depending on when the miscarriage occurred, a real physical or tangible being child that you can gaze upon or have a remembrance of. What are some of the top things that you think are important tools for?
Yeah, the biggest tool I think that I use, I have been trained in using is really the listening ear for sure. But the other is what you had mentioned in my bio, which was timeline therapy. So the neuro logistics training that I have. Very quickly, because of my training as a grief coach, I know the grief that someone is experiencing now is in relationship to previous grief and loss. It's in combination of that. I know with my training that all of the majority of our emotions, how we deal with things, go back to how we were when we were 0 to 7 years old. Almost everything is connected there. With my training, as we talk, I will do a session where we can go back to resolve that. Really, it's going back there for an understanding of why they're grieving how they are. I'll give an example. I was talking to a client, and she had had a miscarriage. Through our conversation, found out that what was deeper for her was not really her loss, but she had a close friend. And this is what we talk about, what we do. I want to process this that this is not always going to be...
If it triggers someone or anything like that, I want to process it that this is just part of our conversation, what I did with her. I found out she had a friend that had just passed away that was pregnant, so lost friend and friend's child, and this woman was married and had two children. Where the grief was, she had a miscarriage, she had two children and a husband, and so now she had this grief of her child and the grief of this friend that she recently lost. As we talked more, I'm just going to paraphrase way big on this, was that she had postpartum depression and she felt she was having that with this miscarriage. She had that with her two previous children. We talked more and that's where really it started. Then I found out about the friend that had passed. Then I just sensed, there was more. Where we went back to was when she was two years old, her mom had a stillborn. All of the grief, the postpartum depression, and everything that she was going through, really, I worked with her to go back to where that was how to grieve was modeled for her.
She experienced it. Her mom said, I wouldn't have survived if you weren't here. Her mom was in depression, of course. That's what she knew. It was in her unconscious mind of how to handle grief. She didn't even realize it, really. That's something that I can do is surface those things. There's a realization, and now we know and we can work with that.
That sounds really, really good. really powerful. When we talk about with coaching versus therapy and using NLP, you're going back and in one session, you're just really unwrapping all of that. It's not about trying to go deeper into all the psychological impacts and all of that type of thing, because we know that as coaches, that is not our role. But you're just going in and unwrapping that. It's funny that you say that. I was working with a client last night, and she has this, she's a grieving mom. Her son died in his 20s, and it's been two years. And she comes to me because I feel like I'm crazy. I thought I was doing well, and then all of a sudden I'm just like, totally losing it and losing relationships and all of this stuff. And I just don't know that I'm deserving. I feel like I'm not deserving of having a decent life because of all this stuff. That was one of the questions that I had is where did that voice start that you're not deserving?
It went all the way back to that young childhood where... And that she was the product of a mom and dad who both had previous marriages and previous kids. She was the only child but had half-siblings on both sides, but she never felt like she truly belonged because then there was this half- sibling family over here where there were two full-siblings. There's a half-siblings over here where there were two full. That came through and has been coming through in her grief. We didn't spend and do all was a psychological deep dive, but it was an awareness for her like, Oh, I hadn't thought about that. I never felt fully belonged because I didn't belong to either one of those families as a full-sibling.
Yeah, you're right. It's just surfacing that the awareness of it now it's more conscious. With what we do now, it's just there. It's what makes it easier now to navigate and work through the grief to where we want to be. It's like you said, we don't spend a lot of time there, but we just bring that to awareness. Because when we're aware of those things, now we can work with them and we can navigate them and deal with them if we're aware of it. When it's so deep in our unconscious, it's hard to deal with. We're unaware of it. Just surfacing that. One of the things that I guess where I'm a little different than some grief coaches is really I can work with them quickly to surface in that awareness. The other thing really is for those that are struggling with infertility, it's the same, the awareness, what you talked about, the unworthiness with infertility, the blame, the shame, like, I'm a woman, I should be able to have a child.
Right.
Why not? It's got to be me. Why am I just like this? It's wrong with me? There's work that needs to happen there for them to really move forward. The other part of infertility is we haven't reached our goal as a woman. The goal is a child and so great grief. What happens to grief when we've had a missed cycle or we've had a cycle or we're going through IVF or whatever treatment and it didn't work? We don't like to say it was failed because that's not a good thing. It just didn't stick. Now we go to the next one. There's grief at that first one, but we're not going to deal with it. We're going to move to... We're going to reach that goal, so we're going through it again. Maybe this one stuck and there's a miscarriage. Now we have more grief. Then we go and we go and we go until there's a child. We got to work through some stuff now because there's a lot of grief that has been pushed down, set aside, unresolved that you and I know is coming out.
How powerful. I'm just thinking out loud here and listening to you.
When you're coming to infertility, for someone to actually get some grief coaching before they even go through the next IVF and all of that type of thing, because we know from genetic predispositions and stuff when we're carrying a child and that emotions. And all of that stuff can really affect our embryos and that type of thing. So if they could get some clarity around that and find some healing, we know that we don't completely heal from grief. Grief stays with us. But if they can get to a place where they find that happiness and the gratitude and all of those things so that that's not being carried in the womb, how powerful. So it's almost like a free coaching for during this time of IVF because I'm just thinking of people that I know. And even my own mother, I know I'm I know in my heart, now she would never have said that. And she loved me. She did the best.
But how difficult it must have been to have my brother and I after Greg died. And I came six years after that. So there's three year increments between my brother and then another two years for me. And I'm pretty sure if I was in her shoes, I would have been thinking, Oh, my God. I don't know that I can do this. I don't know that I can do this again. This is so much. And so you know that those emotions can affect the psyche of our unborn babies and that type.
Of thing. Absolutely.
So that's just a really powerful I'm putting a plug in. If someone's listening to this and you're actually going through the process, there's some really good things that could come out of coaching while you're going through the process to really bring you in that really healthy emotional state of mind to really make this even a more successful.
And so for me right now, it's really getting the word out to these women. I've had a couple of guests on my podcast that work with women as well, and it's really just for them is taking a pause. Just don't keep going through the treatments and pushing yourself. You really need to take a pause and allow yourself to grieve what has happened and not be like, Okay, we got to do it again. We got to do it again and keep pushing forward to really take that time and allow yourself to grieve that loss is the biggest part. And if they can connect with someone like myself to just talk about all of that, just to really work through that before they go on, absolutely. Their relationship with their spouse will be much better. The health of that next child, that next egg, embryo, will be much better. So yeah, there's multiple things that benefit by doing that. It's just an education to women out there that it's not beneficial for you to keep pushing through.
Of course, we're going to help you as best we can. Society, doctor, whoever for that healthy child. That's the end goal. And to do that in the best way for you and that child is what I guess I'm trying to say to encourage them to take that time.
I have a friend who she was living close to used to work with me many years ago, but she shared her journey of several miscarriages. After each miscarriage, she and her husband purchased a little stuffy doll figure. And then, hey, here's one. Then came the second one, then there came the third one. And I think there was even a fourth one. Then she had a healthy boy. Then another miscarried, so got another stuffy. And then came a healthy little girl. They actually did family pictures. And those stuffies are in there with her children because that was their way of really acknowledging that there was a life.
It's been tough. That grief is still there.
She's so grateful for these two little children and pouring her love into them. However, she still has those physical reminders and did not just wash away the whole acknowledgement that she had some life within her. S he wanted to acknowledge those children. I just thought it was just such a beautiful, beautiful expression as a way to tangibly...
Because we know that when grief is hidden away, like in my family, no one ever talked about Greg. It was never spoken of until 60 years after the fact when my mom finally opened up. And all that hiddenness brings a lot of additional trauma, actually, because we're holding it in. And that failed the Greek, right? Because we didn't give it air. Yeah.
Right. Wow. Yeah. Powerful. Really, yeah, with the infertility, just really in all grief, just speaking about it and finding someone that gets it and understands outside of, like we talk about, outside of the family or outside the doctor because the doctor wants to help you, too, and really finding that person outside of that, that gets it, that can listen, really share with them their worthiness because it's a tough time when they're going through infertility and losses like that. It is just a tough time for the women. Men, yes. Women, more so. Yeah.
Gosh, what you do is just so, so important. W e're getting to the end of our time here. But if there was one thing that you could share with the audience that you would like them to walk away with, what would that one thing be?
It would be to really take time to heal your grief. Take time to speak to someone because when we heal the grief that we have, the hope surfaces from that. That is really when we can live again. My business is about just living life again to the fullest, finding purpose. Purpose can be found with deep grief. Just really reaching out, like we talk about all the time, finding that person that you can truly, truly talk to, that will listen and can support you to allow the healing and the hope to happen.
Yes. I find the phrase for the acronym hope, honoring our purpose every day. We know that does help us to continue moving forward during these times when the grief surfaces, just like opening up your trunk and seeing all of the quilting materials of your mom. It's like, Oh, my gosh. Where is this coming from? that happens. I just want our audience to know that that is normal and that all feelings are okay. We tend to think that we shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't, we should ourselves, shouldn't, ourselves so many times. That's just not helpful. It's not honoring of yourself and honoring of yourself as a bereaved mother, daughter, husband, son, whatever shows up for you, wherever that grief is coming from, that honoring yourself is just as important as honoring your loved one. Thank you so much. Now I'm going to have your information in the show notes, but could you just let our folks know how they can reach out to you?
Sure. My business is Living After Grief. That is my website, www. Livingaftergrief.Com. Email, tresa, no h, t, e, r, e, s, a, @ livingaftergrief. Com. On social media, Facebook, and Instagram is the same, Living After Grief. Those are probably the best places to get connected with me, follow, join the community. Those would be the best places, I guess.
And then give one more plug for your podcast.
Oh, podcast. And I should add, probably the name of my podcast will change. I'm getting ready to just finish up my third year. It is called Labor Pain podcast, and it will be changing because I'm going to encompass more. When I started it, it was about infertility and loss and just a community for those people. Now I'm going to be incorporating and have been incorporating really since the beginning more about grief and navigating that grief within those communities. So stay tuned. Name still to be determined. Got three. I'm thinking about my post says that on social media. So if you go to my social media, you could be a part of what Naming My New, switching the name of my podcast.
Oh, I definitely have to go there and put my vote in.
Yeah. I haven't done it yet, but it probably will happen this week that I put that out there, what it's going to change too.
Awesome.
I'm excited about that.
Well, thank you so much for your wisdom, your love for others to be able to envelop them in compassionate support, walking with them to be able to find that healing in their grief and get the tools and the resources and the awareness to be able to really live a life that's full of joy and peace and purpose and all that good stuff. Thank you again.
Thank you so much, Pat, for having me. I really appreciate this time together talking with someone that we have so many similarities. Thank you again so much for having me on.
Thank you, everybody, for listening. I'll talk to you soon.
Peace out.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Excerpt from Life of Dad mini-documentary:
"I want to tell you about a warrior. A warrior named Wyatt Zane. My mentor, hero, cuddle and battle buddy, my son, my king...
Wyatt means small courageous fighter, and courageous in battle.
He lived up to that name. We won many battles, but sadly, we lost our war...
The only thing harder than losing a child is learning to live again.
You have to find a way to forgive yourself.
When we are shattered, we get to choose how we put ourselves back together.
From pain comes power.
In grief, can greatness be born.
it is beautifully tragic. Whoever, where ever you are, if you can hear my voice.
I believe in YOU!!
For all the fathers fighting their own battles, big and small, KNOW THIS…
You are stronger than you realize. Sleep is overrated, you will endure.
If you can learn to still yourself when you are tired, confused and afraid, you will not only find a special beauty in that moment, but in yourself.
For this is the fire in which we are truly forged.
Trust your instincts, live, laugh, and love with ferocity.
Wyatt Zane Shook My Lil Warrior and King My greatest love" ~Zane Shook
Follow Zane Shook at: Twitter @ZaneShook Instagram wzaneshook
If you are grieving the death of your child and would like to get a free copy of Pat Sheveland's book: How Do I Survive? 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss, go to: www.healingfamilygrief.com and order your copy today.
Grief is not meant to be done alone so please reach out if you are feeling isolated or abandoned in your grief.
You can reach Pat at: patsheveland@msn.com.
#griefandlosssupport #griefsupport
Shownotes:
Welcome, everybody. I just feel so blessed to be here today. Number one, July is Bereaved Parents Month, so it's a month that just really is focused on parents who have suffered through the most unimaginable thing possible is the death of their child. And today I'm here with Zane Shook, who is a dad who has been grieving for several years now. And so I'm just so thankful. I met Shane actually through a Facebook group, and we just started connecting and doing some messaging back and forth. And he shared some of his beautiful poetry and things like that. So I just thought this was just really something that would be very important for all of you who hop on and listen to me and are on my various social media platforms. So Shane, welcome or Zane, I'm sorry. Zane, welcome so much. Why don't you tell a little bit about yourself?
Well, as you said, my name.
Is Zane. Zane, yeah.
That's right. I've been called worse. I'm 47 now. I've been married for 26 years to my queen, Julie. We've been together forever through thick and thin. It's been an interesting life, I guess. I'm learning through other people and myself. I guess when I was born, I had tubes and things running through my body. My dad said he couldn't even see me the first time that he came home. He was in the armed forces. I had so many tubes and things in there. And I guess I almost died twice. And then a lot of tragic things have happened in childhood. None of my family died, thankfully. But I witnessed my brother being gulfed in flames. My sister get hit by a car right in front of me when her back in the day when they had back brakes on the bicycles and her chain popped off, I reached out and tried to grab her, but she went right out in front of this car. Some crazy things like that. And a lot of times our life, we just take it as it comes. And you don't realize that things are dramatic, especially when you're a kid.
It's just, well, that was crazy. And then you move on. And it wasn't until later in my life that I had nightmares about those since we're talking about traumas and things. But life went on. Three days before my 16th birthday, I was shot by my best friend since kindergarten with a sawed off 20 gage shotgun at Point Blank range. I had blew out my whole everything here. So that was quite the experience. Changed a lot of things in life. I had planned on going in the military and things like my dad, but they said, well, you got the heart and the mind for it, but the body, if something could happen to the shoulder. And then what I did, used to do for a profession, I did carpet cleaning, fire and water restoration, things like that. And then actually, when I met Julie, it's funny. I walked into this new country bar. We actually met at a bar where people say, Oh, that can't happen. I walked in in my metallic shirt because I was always about metallic. And it was a huge country dance floor. It was a huge country bar. I was like, Look at these weirdos.
And then now it's like, here I got... I learned to dance, line dance, and do all these things, 20 step, two step walls and all that. I was like, we were throwing down out there on that thing. I was doing this modeling type stuff for a store that was in there called the All American Cowboy. And that's where I met Julie. And the first time I noticed her, I'm not sure if she noticed me or not, I was actually dancing with someone else. And my hand slipped a little bit. I almost went right into the dance rail because she caught my attention. I was like, What's going on? Bam. And I was like, Oh, Jesus. I hope no one saw that. A lot of people did see that, though. And then she walked up to me, though, one day and she just said, When are you going to dance with me? And I was like, Right now? And we've been dancing ever since. Life. Like the song, the dance by Garth Brooks. A lot of people think that's actually just about a specific dance, but it's actually about the dance of life. It has a double meaning there.
And then we had Wyatt, and he was born in 1998. Now, at seven months along, they had brought us back in after the latest ultrasound and had told us that they could not see one of his kidneys at all. It was just not there. It was a void. And then the next one or the other one, they could not see it. They did not know if it was there. So legally, they had to give us the option to abort if we wanted to, because they said if he's born with no kidneys, there's just absolutely no chance. But of course, my mentality and hers, we're thinking, you can't tell us that 100 %. So we're not going to throw in the towel before the bell rings. We're going to give life a chance. And he came out and then the doctors really got a kick out of it when he peed on him because they were like, he's got a kidney. And he did his thing in a major business and then he was born. His name is Wyatt Zane. And technically, my middle name is Zane. My first name is actually Warren. So it's Warren Zane Shook, WZS.
And he's Wyatt Zane Shook, WZS. But Wyatt means a small, courageous fighter and courageous in battle. And sadly, life itself was his battleground every day. But man, what a warrior. Definitely, he had some bad days and things, but he never really cried a lot. It took a lot to make him cry. He was mostly happy and a little nutter. He was a little crazy guy, even though he could never speak. He couldn't speak. And depending on exactly what we would be talking about, he passed when he was just four months shy of his 18th birthday. But he's probably mentally functioning somewhere around between two to four ish. It's really hard to pinpoint it down. I know he had special needs. A lot of people, if they don't know about special needs, they just assume that you're just stationary. But he was actually ambulatory. He could walk. He could go crazy, but he'd just get really tired a lot. That's why you see in a lot of my pictures that the wheelchair, because we had to have that after he outgrew the strollers and things like that. But yeah, so he only had the one kidney.
He had many surgeries. He had to have an ASD and a BSD repaired for his heart. And that was the biggest one. And then he had to have what they call a fundop latication. It's where at the bottom of your esophagus tube, if the muscles are relaxed too much, that's what gives you the gird, the really bad refub. And his was really bad. And so they had to go in there and wrap it, tighten it. And then it came loose. They had to rebose it. And so he fed through a Mickey button in his stomach. It's like a feeding tube, basically. Mickey buttons are really nice though, because you can take the actual tubes off. And then he had the trach placed for many years. So there's a lot of suctioning. And then, of course, there was medications. He did suffer seizures. So he had a lot going on.
You had so much. I'm a nurse by background and just all of the physical challenges that you dealt with. So basically for 18 years, this was your life. This was absolutely your life is caring for this beautiful child.
Yeah. Did you want to ask something?
No, go ahead.
Yeah. Some people say, Oh, wow. That's crazy. You had to sacrifice so much. And it's just like, I didn't sacrifice anything. I was gifted. I was blessed. Not me gifted, but gifted with him and his presence. And so after he was first born, we were both home with him for many months. And then I would work for a while or she would work for a while. And then we got some nursing here and there and it went back and forth like that for a few years. And we lived in Carbondale, Kansas at that time. But we had to make so many trips about 80 miles east to here to Kansas City. And that's where Children's Mercy Hospital is down in Kansas City, Missouri. And so we moved to Oalatha, Kansas, which is just a little bit south of Kansas City to be closer to the hospital because there were many times... His diaper bag was basically a diaper go bag. You had to be ready at any second. I look at a lot like preparing for an imminent tornado all the time. And a lot of people, they use that expression, you see it now.
It's funny to watch all these things change because here I am still a caveman and I'm still using the same terminology. I missed out on a lot of that stuff because I was raising him and I wouldn't have said half of it anyway. I'm with your 24 7, 100. And I'm like, whatever that means. Okay.
But some.
People say that and it's like, I got your back 24 7, but I'm going to go take a 12 hour nap. You know what I mean? It's like, that's not what that means. When you raise a special needs child like that, you're on 24 7. And it wasn't until probably he passed in 2016, it was probably about 2014 when a lot of things started happening to me health-wise, where things started catching up. And I think a lot of it too was probably from the past traumas of getting shot, things like that. I had to actually put on adrenal support twice because with his suctioning and things, when his seizures got bad or he got sick, you just sometimes didn't sleep for a week at a time. That's just how it was. Or even if you did, I could hear a fly a half a mile away. You could just hear everything. You're in tune with that because he could need suction in the middle of the night. You have to hear that because he's aspirating that. That's going into his lungs. You could drown from it. That has to come out right then and there.
Or it could have a seizure, things like that. So there are many mad dashes at times to either call an ambulance or at times take him to the hospital. And you had to be prepared to be dressed with everything ready to go, him ready to go.
Well, and what I'm hearing from you, too, is for 18 years of your life, you were on high alert. You were like continuously... When people talk about PTSD and post-traumatic stress, it's that constant barrage of being on high alert and the fear that goes down and ready to be able to take a... You got to be able to move quickly on your feet. You have to always be in tuned to that. And you talked about the adrenal support. And interestingly enough, I also work in Chinese medicine with Qigong. And the adrenals, the kidneys, and all of that in ancient Chinese wisdom from thousands and thousands of years ago, fear is the emotion that affects our kidney system. So you think about that. You are in a constant heightened level of fear that something's going to happen and you have to be prepared. So there was always that being of high alert in a constant fear phase. So for me, it's totally reasonable that you ended up needing adrenal support because your body was in this high alert and this fear was affecting your kidney energy for years and years and years. So let's talk a little bit about...
So 18 years, you spent 18 years caring for this beautiful child who gifted you. I mean, you've shared pictures, you've shared poems on Facebook. You are so beautifully able to express in both the photos and in your writings about this beautiful love between father and child that that's what really hit me when I first met you. It was just like, Wow, you are just so beautifully able to express that. Did you know, were you prepared that he was going to pass at a young age? So is that something that you're just always in the back of your mind that this could be my last day, this could be our last time together? I mean, did he live what he was expected to live? Did he live less than what he was expected or longer? What happened there?
Well, I think ultimately from their standpoint and just medically, he lived a lot longer. And they tried to say that was because of the great care that we took of him. But I'm like, I was just being dad. Wyatt did a lot of the hard work, you know what I mean? And it's like we talked about earlier, that constant being stuck in that fight or flight mode, just an overdrive. And it wasn't so much a fear of... Not like how people think, like, terrified, walking on eggshell. You know what I mean? But your system feels like you were saying. Your system, though, even though consciously you're not paying attention to it because you can't feed that wolf. You know what I mean? That'll just tear you down. And to answer your other question, we never thought about it like that, that he was going to pass or anything because there was just no way we were going to let that happen. I actually saved him twice before. So that was what was another thing that was so traumatic about this third time that I couldn't bring him back. But yeah, we just embraced life. And like children do, it made you so happy and things.
And just to see the things that he could go through and still be happy and wandering around and you know what I mean? And the things that we would do together. He probably spent a third of his life on our chest just sitting up with us and patting him and things like that. He loved to go for walks, go to the zoo, things like that. But we never really took on a defeatist type attitude because as soon as that happens, that could spiral real quick. Because I was giving him a bath one day, and I literally just stepped out around the corner to grab his syringe and I heard the water and I thought, Oh, he's standing up. And I looked back in the room as I was walking back in there and I couldn't see him. At that split second, he had a seizure and he went underwater. So it's just like you've got a multitask at this point. It's like I tell people when you're... The worst time to panic is when you're having a panic attack.
You. Got to rein that in, man. Quick, you got to learn how to just do that. So I grabbed him out of the tub and put 911 on speaker. And then as I started suctioning, thankfully, that's a good thing, though, that he had the trick, too. I suctioned him there and actually had to suction down through his nose and things like that. And by the time the EMTs got there, they could see how much fluid had come out of his lungs. And within 10 minutes of them after they were there, he was pretty much like, get off me, man. I want to play. That was his attitude. And they thought, Wow, this is insane. And then that's when people, they say things to you that I guess seemed rational on the outside looking in. But then they'd say, Oh, that was heroic, things like that. And now that's dad, man. His mom would have done the same thing as she'd been here. That's just what you do. There's no limit to what parents do.
I would imagine, though, if we could ask Wyatt today, were you his hero? Was his mom his hero? He would say absolutely yes. You may not see it that way because that is unconditional love. You are the epitome of unconditional love and love for a parent and a child. And so you may say, that's just what a parent does. But I know that if the tales were turned and I was sitting here interviewing Wyatt right now, he'd be saying, Yeah, my dad, he is my hero. He is my hero. As much as I was his hero, he's my hero.
I'd like to hear that.
Yeah. I believe that that's what he would be saying. Absolutely. So, Zane, you guys, you were so on high alert. You weren't thinking that anything would happen. Then all of a sudden, that third time, he wasn't able to come back. And then you stepped on to this very tumultuous, absolutely soul crushing grief journey that parents who have a child who has passed step on. So can you talk to me a little bit about what's the last four years been like for you? We know that when you first are in grief, you're just in zombie mode, right? Totally can't think, can't do any of that. But you started stepping forward in a way. But what were some of the things that you did to help you in being able to take one foot at a time to move forward in a life without a physical quiet with you, knowing that his spirit is always here?
Right. Well, and just before he had passed to for that last year, his one kidney was actually going into failure. So that ultimately was one of the causes. And then he got a really bad infection on top of that. But even though we knew that, it still came, like you said, just out of the blue, really. We weren't expecting that at all. No one is. But like you said after that, people say it feels like a dream, but dreams are hard to recall. You get them in bits and pieces. Night nightmares, you can vividly remember over and over and over. So this is more like a nightmare than it is a dream of any kind. But you're in such a dark place and even actually the trauma of it. And like I say, comparing it, say, to the bodily trauma I have with a shotgun, that'll put some hurt on you. A shotgun will. And it'll mess with your whole system. But I can tell you that that is nothing compared to the physical trauma of losing a child. And I mean, because it decimates your entire body, your soul, your spirit, everything that you are.
It literally physically hurts. And I can tell you, it hurts a lot more than getting shot or having a kidney stone or any of that nonsense. That's all pretty easy. But I was in such a dark place. And for the last four years or eight years of his life, I was the one that would stay at home with him. And so, you know, Julie had taken a little extra time off of work, of course. And then she went back to work and has been doing that ever since. And I'm still a stay at home person now trying to get my health back together. But I think one of the things it, and you still go back, it's like, I still have obviously very, very hard days where you just can't even move and it's paralyzing. But my health was just so bad. And she got us these two German shepherds. And there was a day out here that they wanted to play. And I was just such a mess and crying. And I thought back to right before when I was born, we said, we're not going to throw on the towel before the bell rings.
And so it was like, that's what I've done, actually. And I felt like I never really let him down in life, but I was letting him down in spirit in passing, because at that moment, that's the day that I was actually sitting there with a bottle of sleeping pills in one hand and a bottle of painkillers in the other. And I thought, Screw this world. I'm out of here. And then I just thought of him. And that's why, like I wrote, Epiphany came calling. And it's like, this can't happen. This isn't the way that life is supposed to be. And nor is it supposed to be that we're supposed to grieve our children or not. But for me, the thing that helped me was to try to just carry on his legacy for him and talk about him. And when I started writing, there's probably some of the things I haven't shared yet, but I actually started writing to him instead of about him. Started writing to him, things, because you're always talking to your child when they're not here, things like that. But actually writing it down, it's really therapeutic. It's not easy. But that was one of the things that started to give me a little bit of hope.
And then I was walking outside that day too, and I saw this little bird sitting there and I just started watching it. And I thought, I think it's really beautiful. And you start noticing all these things. And it was a few days later, this butterfly landed on my hand and it just felt like... And I think a lot of people after something tragic, you want to see signs and things like that. But at the same time, I never had anything happen like that before. And all of a sudden that came in and it was just like, that butterfly, it's a lost light as a butterfly, but it hit me like an anvil. And it was like, you need to wake up. So I started writing more, doing things like that. And I did. It's like you're saying earlier about the unconditional love. I think that's just what you do. People ask me sometimes about my writing and I don't know. That's just how I express myself. I thought everybody did it like that. You just lay it out there. You have to be brutally honest and open. But I'm finding out that's not the case because I actually I commented one time there was a question that was in a group of dads and I really joined some of the dad groups.
I never joined them until after he passed. But I just wanted a place to share it.
I am. Sorry, someone. I apologize. Faith, I don't have you on the... She accidentally. Sorry about that.
That's all right. It's a party line.
Yeah, apparently. Yeah, accidentally. Okay, so you went to this group of dads.
And this one was called a life of dad. And they had put a question out there on their Facebook wall, I guess you call it. And it just said, what is one thing you wish you could quit doing as a dad? And there was a lot of just pretty much typical answers. Oh, stop doing this. Do more of this. And mine was more about quit sabotaging myself and the self anihilation with the guilt, getting over the guilt of not being able to save him because the guilt is the thing that just... It's like a dagger to the heart. I mean, it's the ultimate. I don't care if you want to talk about a 10,000 pound boulder. Grief is heavier. Grief is the heaviest thing that we can carry ever. And it got quite a few comments and things, and I just didn't think about it much longer. But then they contacted me about four months later, and they said that one comment just blew up the whole team there at that life of Dad. And so they asked me if I wanted to do a mini documentary for their Real Dad series. And I went, oh, yeah, I can do that to honor him.
That was the first time I'd ever put my ugly face on a computer. But it was really hard. But at the same time, it was something that I had to do. I wrote his obituary and everything and read his eulogy and wrote that, too. I wasn't about to let anybody else do that. That's my job. It wasn't easy, but the most interesting things that happen aren't.
And listening to you, as you know, I've written a book and it is to help grieving parents, different tools and things that they can do as they're walking this grief path. And grieving is a form of healing. We have to go through that grief when we experience a deep loss because that's part of the healing process. If we don't, I coin the phrase, it can be failed grief. It's like having a surgery. You might have a surgery and if it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, you can have a failed surgery, right? And then go on and actually maybe be worse off than what you were before or definitely not being able to regain your health. And healing in grief is that same thing. It's a healing place, but we need to be able to take certain actions. And so what I'm hearing from you is a lot that I number one, I don't know a grieving parent who did not say that they were ready to die. And I don't take it as it's suicidal ideation. The fact is you don't want to live without your child. So that's totally normal, what you just said, having each of the pills in each hand, it's like, but then you make a choice and say, this isn't what Wyatt would want.
I mean, I need to honor his life. And that's why I found is the main thing to help in the healing process is remembering to honor. When you honor your child, you're honoring your own grief, which is important. It's important to be able to honor where you're at. And the fact that you're writing, other people may not write and do other things, but you're writing, I really encourage the people that I work with in my grief coaching that they do write letters to their children, to their loved one, not about them, but to them, because that is that way to keep that connection and to keep their spirit alive. In my circumstance, it was my brother who died before I was born. My parents never talked about him. Back at that time, you just buried it, right? And you didn't say anything. And so 60 years later is when my mom finally was able to talk about it. And we talked about Greg, and we brought his spirit alive. We had his name. We brought out a couple of pictures she had because she had buried it, but it stayed within her. It always was within her.
You know that. I mean, like you said, this crushing boulders of pain. There's no pain that is the pain of having a child die before you do. That's just not the natural order of life. So you spoke so eloquently about this is the facts. This is absolutely the facts. Now I'd like to ask you, so between you and Julie, what were some of the differences that you saw in how you have been walking your grief path? And for Julie, as a woman, because I see that there's a lot of differences between guys and girls a lot of times because guys are doers and may not talk as much about their grief in the way that a woman might. So what are some of the differences that you even notice in your own marriage as far as processing with this grief?
The roles are reversed. She really doesn't talk about it that much. And neither one of us, we really don't sit down and have conversations about it. We talk about why and things like that, but we're pretty much on the same level as far as where we're at grieving. I mean, we both still just have fantastically horrible days. And lately I've been having even going backwards as far as that. And that's just going to happen. But I had mentioned to her, like I said, when she went back to work, and I thought, I don't know how you can go back to work. That takes strength to me. She's like, I don't know how you can sit here in this apartment because we were still in that apartment at that time. And I think that's one of the things that, like you said about doers, is a lot of people tend to do is just whatever they do for a career, for a hobby or whatever, they just busy up their time and just get their hands working. Like they say, the idle hands are the devil's work. And part of my issues on top of everything else was I was diagnosed with a Hashemoto's thyroid disease, which is an autoimmune disorder, and psoriatic arthritis.
And then on top of that, they found out I had a Mercury, Cobalt, and Uranium in my system, which they're not sure what. And you can look up any of the side effects from those. So there were literally many days. And then on top of that, the depression that came with it, I probably sat on the couch literally every single day for two years. I mean, I don't think the longest I went without showering or even taking a shower or changing my clothes at all was three months. And I was pretty much awake that whole time, too. They diagnosed me with some crazy sleep disorder. And quite literally, I would be awake for up to a month or two at a time, sometimes longer. And the sleep doctor said it was probably most likely due to just the accumulated traumas. And that's a challenge in itself because a lot of life is mental, it's not physical. And so I let the lessons of Wyatt, I call it Wyatt's way. He just always has a way of making people happy, making people smile, things like that. And there's times when, like I said, you can feel your whole system crashing.
And so for me, it's... And it's easy to say, I'll try to remember the good days. But it's oftentimes, well, like I wrote in that last post I just put up the adrift that a few memories, they're so horrible there at the end. They can overshadow everything else. You just don't want to let it wash it away, which is where it can get to. That's what you're pinpointed on. You're focused on. And that was another thing is I was just such poor health that I'm sitting here on the sofa, she's working every day. And then she's the one that's out in the yard doing the mowing and things like that, which she doesn't mind. She loves to do it. So she is more of the busier do it up thing. But I'm starting to finally get some part of that back because I'm only running at probably 20 % really, to be honest with you, compared to what I used to be. And a lot of that is, there's no doubt that his passing just accelerated all of those health issues. And then I ignored him for so long, too, because I thought, well, if I couldn't save him, why should I take this medicine to help me?
Punishing me. But then you wake up to the fact it's like, I'm not just punishing me, I'm punishing Julie, Wyatt, memory. And that's just something that just can't have that. That's the one thing that I think every parent wants to do is to have their child's memory honored, to just have someone say, You existed. You mattered. And so many people feel alone because nobody wants to talk about, like you said, child grief, nobody. But I've known people that have lost children in the past. And so I see it from both ways. I thought, Well, what can I possibly even... I'm not going to walk up to them and say, How are you doing? They might kick me in the face because how do you think they're doing? This is something that, like you said, this is a lifelong battle. It just will be forever. This is completely different than any other type of grief on the planet.
Absolutely. And when you talk about for two years, and that's what I want people to understand is there is no timetable. There's no cookie cutter process of how you're going to move in your grief. And I'm not going to say move through it because the grief is always there. But it's going to have sometimes it's at a cresendo. It's so high and so heavy. And then other times it comes down and it settles down a little bit. But it doesn't go away because grief is love. I mean, had we never loved, we would not grieve. Right. So that's immense love and trying to have all this love in your heart. And where do you give it when the physical person is not here? But what I really want to let everybody know is don't beat yourself up if it's taking time. And people may say things like, come on, it's time to get moving, or it's been too long, you need to do this or that. But knowing what it is for yourself, every individual, just like you and Julie, you each grieve differently. Now, she's the one that's the doer, she keeps busy. And that's what I've noticed in this whole COVID environment, too, is people who are so used to being busy and not being their heads all the time, thinking, thinking, thinking about their loved one.
And then all of a sudden they had to be home and they couldn't get out. And then all of a sudden that it's like, I'm in my head way too much. So I appreciate that you're being so open and sharing about this. And the honoring your child is so important. And I see that you're starting to take a few more steps. You were just on a podcast, I believe, or on a radio show or something like that. You're sharing your story more. And what I know about grief is that truly where the deep healing comes from is when we start sharing with others and find a purpose on being able to help others. And I see that with you, Zane, with your writing, with your sharing your deep wisdom. You do. You have a depth of wisdom and a way to express it so that everybody gets it. And it doesn't make anybody bad or wrong. And the other thing that you talked about early on, too, is what I know is that there's two emotions that really are important to work through. Well, actually, three. I'm going to say three. Emotions that I think are really important to work through as far as how do you frame it in your mind.
Guilt. I don't know one mother or father who doesn't carry a tremendous amount of guilt because we're here to take care of our children. And even though there may have been nothing that you could do, most likely nothing you could do, that weighs so heavily. Another one is anger. A lot of people experience anger. And I almost feel like guilt is anger turned inwards. It's like we're angry at ourselves with our guilt. And then the other one is abandonment. And I believe that all of our past... So you had so many traumatic events as a child. And like you said, we just move on. We think everything's fine. But when we are stricken with this deep of grief, all of the traumas that we had in the past, all our beliefs, everything comes to this table of grief. And then it can be just like a mountain crushing you. And to try to sift through that takes time. And you're sifting through your writing. And you're sifting by getting the medical attention that you need and working on your own health, which is so important. So I just really appreciate that. Now, if there is one piece of advice, piece of wisdom that you may be able to give, especially other dads, but any grieving parents, what would that be?
I don't know. don't know. I think to me, that's the hardest question because there's no magic answer. There's no magic bullet. The only thing that I could say is you've already been through the worst that could possibly happen and you're still here. You're still here for a reason. And it's tragic because you also only have guilt of not being able to save our children. But you feel guilty because I'm still breathing and they're not. But you almost have to create a mission statement in your head. And mine was basically plant a flag with Wyatt's name on it and let the world know that he was a beacon of hope. He always was when he lived. And he still lives through the words. The only way that our ancestors or our children truly die is if we stop speaking about them or writing about them. They live on through us, through our words, through our stories. And I've had people message me and say, hey, I was just thinking about you and our family. We were talking about Wyatt. My grandpa feels like part of the family. And that's the part that finally felt like I got kicked in the head with some reality.
It was like, oh, wow, that's amazing. And that's what you want. And like I said, I just called out, why it's way. And he said, well, it's because of the way you write about it. And I'm like, no, he's the one that gives me strength. You know what I mean? He's the one that puts the wisdom in there. It just flows through my pen. That's just how it is. But that's really all I can say about that, at least at this point, because you almost... Some questions you don't answer because you almost feel like a hypocrite because I'm not always able to do that. But yeah, I mean, that's the darkest thing that we could possibly go through, and we're still here. So now that's the question is, what do we do? How do you move forward when all you want to do is lay down and die? And that's what you feel a lot. And that's how I try to look at things and what gets me to do that. And then, like you said, the one thing that I have as far as advice is tell people the same thing you did is just write.
Start writing. Because a lot of people would say, and especially men, and even a lot of the women would say, I wish I could express myself the way you do. And like I said, in my head, what I was thinking is, well, you can. It's easy. Just start writing. Even think of a word like, say for a while, it would be warrior. And then just start going with that. Or like you said, write. What I did, the same as what you're talking about, write to him first. I just wanted to communicate with him. It's like a message in a bottle. You throw it in the sea. You don't know if anybody's ever going to get it. That's not really the point. The point is that expression of it. Because even the unspoken words and I never got a chance to do this or that, all those things that go through your head, well, you have a chance now. You have nothing but time now to do that.
Otherwise. That builds up, too. And that's what really tears you down, like I said, and it builds into rage. And we have to deal with that, or it will eat us from the inside out.
I so love your honesty and authenticity, Zane. Always have. I think that's what just connected me when I would see things that you posted on Facebook. And I have one piece of advice that I give people, and it's a pretty simple one. Be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself. Just be kind. Our children want us to be kind. It is a very hard one. So this is the other thing is I did write this book last year. It came out last year. And if anybody here wants a copy of the book, all you have to do is just I'm going to put my website, it's www.healingfamilygrief. Com. Reach out to me, tell me that you want the book. I will send it for free. Zane, if you can private message me your physical address, I'll send you a copy of the paper back copy here because I think this was written because I've had so many grieving parents share their wisdom with me. And I found there are commonalities that you do as grieving parents who are able to step forward and may take steps back. And it's a roller coaster. Even 10 years down the road, 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, 60 years like my mom.
This is not something that just goes away. But the people who are able to successfully continue to live and honor their children and to serve others in their healing process, I took all that wisdom and then I just put it together in a book. I'm the one that you all are my wisdom keepers. I'm the scribe. I took it all. I put it in a book so that we can give steps for people who are who are just... It's a struggle. It's a struggle to get out of bed. Like you said, two years, two years, or you want three months, three months without shaving and changing clothes because you're awake but you're really not mentally. And we know that, again, I'm a nurse. I also work with energy healing with the Qigong, but we know that the emotional stuff that we're going through affects our body. And you talked about the psoriatic arthritis and the immune, all of that thing, that all is affected because of energy in your lungs. And it's energy. So what happens when we're grieving, that's the emotion. It settles in our lungs and it can create blockages when it's been there for a long time.
So energy blockages, so our skin, psoriasis, our immune system, all of that is in our breathing energy system. So you're just absolutely a, I don't want to say poster child, but you are the poster child of this is what happens. And because of the emotions, so when you can start moving into bringing in some positive emotions. And for grieving, the positive emotion of deep grief and that, and that where we can open up our long energy systems, our breathing energy systems, is the emotion of contentment. So being okay where I'm at today. I am content with where I'm at today. And some days you may not, some minutes you may not. But the more that we tell ourselves, and through your writing, that is bringing forth that contentment within you. You are able to get content when you're writing because you're expressing yourself. And I appreciate that wisdom of even if you're listening to us and you don't like to write, I love it. Take one word, one word and put that on a sticky note around your house and just remember. And all of our phones now have voice recorders, record into the recorder and just talk to your beloved child, your beloved spouse, whoever it is that you're grieving, and just talk to them.
Because again, it's that connection. And you talked about the butterfly. You talked about the bird, but then the butterfly that landed. Now, I believe that energy transforms. Why it isn't gone? His energy has transformed. So what a beautiful gesture to have a butterfly, a true symbol of transformation, to land on you and help you to awaken that spiritual beingness that you express so beautifully. So I'm so appreciative of you saying I always have been. If you don't mind, if you can send me the one piece of work that you would like me to share, you've written a lot, but if there's one particular one, why don't you send it to me? And then I will put that in with the post that we send out to everybody so that people can really get a taste of your beautiful expression of love for Wyatt. And it's very powerful. And is there anything else that you would just in our final minute here that you would like to share or point people to, whatever?
Well, we always look to outside sources for inspiration. And like I say, you've already been through the darkest moment. And just like the thing that I had to realize is that people are watching and they pay attention to things. So whoever you are, you're probably inspiring someone else, too. And there's nothing more powerful than service to others, too. The smallest gesture could go a long way. So just take a deep breath and there's still plenty of work for us to do for those of us like us here. Actually, I shared a memory today of a poem called Sleep Living, and it actually has ironically, that picture of the butterfly from a few years ago on it. And what you said earlier about sifting through everything, I actually did write a poem called Sifting Me. I might send you that, too.
Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. So are you good with people connecting with you through Facebook or?
Yeah. Facebook, Zane Shook. I'm on Twitter, too. I don't really understand all that. I think I have an Instagram account with three pictures on it. I do a lot of it. But I think I'm going to try to figure out Instagram a little more just because I do have the pictures. And I've taken some of Wyatt's pictures and some of the shorter writings. I've put on them, I guess. I don't know if that's called a meme or whatever, but I've done some of that. And I think I'll figure out how to link that on my Facebook page. I don't even know what my username is. I think it's just my name on Instagram. I told you, I'm a tech cave man.
Well, I think for anybody, I'm a tech cave girl, I guess. I'm learning because it's part of my business. But see if you can find Zane on Instagram. Zane, when you figure out what your username or whatever, send it to me, I'll put it out and I'll make sure that I'm getting that out to people, too. This will go out on Facebook. I will be tagging Zane in on this. And so then you'll have Zane so that you can reach out to him and friend him with that. And I just am so appreciative of you taking the time here. Your puppies are ready to go do their thing. I can tell they're like, you've been in there way too long. Time to get us out in the yard and play. But I am so appreciative. Well, hopefully this video is good. I think there was one little spot where we may have lost a connection, but that's okay. I believe that this is the world of what gets out there, gets out there. We do the best that we can. That's part of that grieving process. You just do the best that you can. One minute, one hour, one day at a time, whatever that is.
So many blessings to you. Just a stutter step.
And much love to Julie. And private message me your address. I'll get a book up into the mail too. I look forward to continuing our connection because we are on Facebook. So thank you, everybody. Thank you, Zane. You're a very precious person. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Artist and Musician David Halliwell shares his deep love, the ensuing grief, and the ongoing healing after his beautiful daughter Cat Halliwell was killed in a motor vehicle accident a decade ago.
Get my free grief ebook, "How Do I Survive?" 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss here: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/order-free-book
Learn more about Pat Sheveland: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/about-me
Schedule a coaching session: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/book-an-appointment
#howtohelpsomeonewithgrief #griefcoach
Shownotes:
Hello, everybody. I'm just so honored to be here today. I'm with David Halliwell, who is engaged to a person that I call my big sis. She's a fellow author, and we met each other last year, and we found out we had the same birthdays, and we've just really been joined at the hip. And she and David became engaged in the little bit latter part of their lives. So that's pretty exciting. We can talk a little bit about that. And the reason why David's here today is David is a grieving dad. I always say grieving does not go away because love never leaves and grief is love. We wouldn't grieve had we not loved so dearly. So David has graciously said yes, that we could have a little interview so that we can share his story. And it's twofold. Number one, I know that for many grieving parents, sharing your story is so important to continually be in that healing process and that grief process, but also to help others because there's so many. I was just on a call and you're in British Columbia, Canada, but in the US alone, the statistics a few years ago is that there are tens of thousands of children who die every year in the US.
So when we look worldwide, it's huge. So we know that there's a lot of grieving families out there. So we hope that our conversation today will help speak to your heart in some way and maybe help with a little healing. So, David, welcome. Welcome.
Thank you.
So why don't we start with... And David is... Let's just talk a little bit about you. Tell me a little bit about your musician and artist. Let's start there. Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Okay. Yeah, I am, in fact, a fine artist all my life and designer. And the music has always been a part of my soul. And we can talk about that later. But now it's more important than the art these days. And I found it very strange being a dad because I was always a solo gypsy troubadour act and hadn't even visualized having a family. Not that I was against it, but I just didn't see it in my role as a solo gypsy person. And then my beautiful daughter came along and changed everything forever. It brought things out in me and helped me grow in so many ways that I'm so grateful for now, of course.
Let's talk about your daughter. Yes. Catherine.
Catherine with a C. Let's start right there. When she was born, I said to her mom, Anyone who goes through labor and gives birth to a child deserves to name their child. So I had no ownership on the name. So she named her Catherine Honor Halliwell, which I thought was a fabulous name. And I said, Well, there are reasons I already knew that this kid was special and unique. So I said, Well, if I can just have a little bit of input, I'm going to take the E out of Catherine and make it Catherine with a C instead of a K. So her name was Catherine, not Catherine. And then when she was quite the character always from the get go, when she was about, I think, three years old, we were at Auntie Kathy's with a K. And Auntie Kathy said, Kathy, would you like some orange juice? And she put her little hand on her little hip and she said, I'm not a cat. I'm not a Kathy and I'm not a Katie. I'm a cat. So we all went, Well, that's it. She's a cat. And she was Cat, Halliwell, everyone after that.
That's so beautiful. I just love how children will actually step into their... I think when they're born, their name has already been chosen before they were even born. And then they just step into that beautiful presence of their name.
That would make sense, I think now to me. Yes. She was a Cat.
Okay. So you're married. You had this beautiful little girl. Tell us a little bit more about Cat and who she is, was, and her spirit and all of that. Just what young woman was she? Just share a little bit.
When she was born, the moment of birth, now, Mary and her mom had a Cesarean section after about 36 hours of trying to give birth naturally. And eventually, we all agreed that this should be done. So she had a Cesarean. I was in the operating theater, of course, by her side the whole time. So the nurse passed the swallowed baby to me first because Mariam had had an injection, so she was lying there still conscious. And I picked up and she had shining violet eyes. Yes, they were like little violet lamps. It was absolutely stunning. And I got to take her over to my home, met her baby that was the beginning for her.
You fell in love.
Oh, absolutely.
She was so cute. Fell in love. Daddy, daughter. I love it.
Yeah. And she was a bright spirit right from the get go. I mean, she was so ready. The funny thing is she ended up being a professional soccer player, an athlete generally, but soccer became her passion. And it's like right from the get go, she was saying, throw me a ball. Throw me a ball. Let's get into this game. She was such a bright spirit.
So beautiful. And I know you've shared pictures. I just got to see a picture of her up on the wall, and she's just vibrant gorgeous, lovely.
Yeah, just absolutely. Now, let's fast forward to 10 years ago. What happened 10 years ago?
Yeah, well, it happened 10 years ago. I think it's every parent's nightmare to get a call in the middle of the night to tell them that your child is in a hospital and it's looking very serious. It was like three or four o'clock in the morning when the phone rang and I had to get up lirio and get this message. And from there it was an insane dash to get from Vancouver over to Seattle to the Harbourview Hospital. I tried to get the ferry to the mainland because I was over here on Vancouver Island. But the ferry had just left as I pulled into the darkened lot. It was just one struggle after another. And I had to drive down to Seattle and get to the hospital. And it was hell. She had been in a car accident coming home from a concert in Washington late at night, and they hit black ice on the highway at two in the morning or something like that coming home to Vancouver. And the car flipped and her and her girlfriend and the guy who was driving her girlfriend's boyfriend were all thrown from the car. They survived with scratches and bruises, but the car fell on her and they had to helicopter her to Harbor Bridge.
Now I just want to mention her mom, God bless her. We divorced, I think it was about eight or nine years before this happened. And we had all settled into our singular lives and we were all connected and everything was fine. So she made her way down there and I made my way down there as we left instantly. And there we were. She was with her new partner. We were there for two days and two nights just praying. And she was lying on this operating table with wires and machines all hooked up to her, keeping her vital energy alive while she was gone, she was unconscious, in a comic state for two days. And in the end, they were a fabulous team working to try and save her life. But the injury was too much and she passed. And that was, I think, one of the hardest moments of our lives when we lost her and she was finally gone. And then we had an extra challenge because we had never discussed the concept of organ donation with her or each other. It had never been on our minds. We've never seen this coming. But we had to look at that seriously.
And it was very strange how miracles happened. We were getting messages. Mariam had her iPad phone thing. I'm digitally dyslexic, so she was doing all the Facebook posts, the emails, the Twitter calls that were coming in from around the world because the story had gone out. And Kat made friends all over the world to be traveled. Well, one of the messages that came in was from my cousin's friend who Kat was with in London. And he told us this story that they had discussed the concept of organ donation at lunch one day. And he said, he's a Londoner, regular guy. And he said to Kat, Oh, screw that. And Kat looked him square in the face like she did when she really wanted to get a point across. And she said, What do you mean, man? It's their F'ing no brainer. Somebody dies and nothing happens, or somebody dies and lives get saved. It's a no brainer. So we got that message from our daughter at that time. And that's when we looked at each other and said, Right, this is the right thing to do. Here we have this girl who's a perfect body, perfect system, perfect mind.
She never drank, she was an athlete, and her body was going to gift other people with life. And she saved five lives and gave two people sight with her beautiful blue eyes.
I have chills. I just awashed with such beautiful energy, truly beautiful energy, and how that message could come through at such a devastating time where you can't even think straight. That it's your beautiful daughter. What do you do? And what a gift. What a gift from heaven to have that message granted and that she lives on.
Right at that time, that message came to us and helped us with that. It was amazing. The little miracles that happened that you don't really get until after the fact when things settled down. Then if I can just mention as well, because this was a big, big moment, obviously. I said to the medical team that we had had two councilors with us for that two day. One was a Catholic priest because my religion is based in Catholicism. So there was a Catholic priest available, but he was working with us. And this wonderful young woman who was a lay person counselor who helped Mariam in considerably well. Anyway, cut to the chase, I said, before I signed these papers for this, that as her dad, I would want to be with her when this operation happened, just because I'm her dad. But I couldn't do it. I couldn't go in that room and watch this operation on my beautiful girl. So I said, if you will allow this Catholic priest to go in with the other counselor and say prayers for her before this happened for her soul. I said, I will sign these papers. And they agreed.
So I did. And he went in with the other counselor and said the last rites for her body. And there were six medical teams in the room ready to do these separate operations because you've got to get the organs quickly to where they're going to do their work. So they were all in the room and they said that there was a silent reverent around Cat, this beautiful girl while he said these prayers. And we found out later that this was the first time in American medical history that a religious ceremony has ever been allowed inside the operating room. That was the case. She was special and she got special treatment.
Of course.
My mom, who was the Catholic one in the family, was very, very happy and felt that.
What an absolute blessing to be able to have ceremony and starting right at that beginning because that is so important, we know, in the healing process. So, David, it's been 10 years. Are you willing to share a little bit about some of the high points and the low points? Because we know that grief is a roller coaster of emotions and affecting our lives. A little bit about what helped you over these last 10 years. How did you survive? That's the real question of how did you survive and what are the things that worked for you? And what are some of the things that maybe weren't so helpful during this 10 year period?
I think I have to confess in the beginning. Now, in the very beginning, I was being the guy. I was so busy taking care of the mom, the friends, other family members. I was the go to guy to help them get over this obstacle and didn't even think about myself, really, because that was my role at the time. But then after everything was over, I had to drive to Seattle to pick up the remainder of her ashes after the operation. And I brought that back to her mom, the family home on Salt Spring, where she grew up. Later, we shared these ashes, but we'll talk about that later. After that was all done and we had a fantastic memorial and life celebration on Salt Spring, I think there were 450 people came, and that was only the ones that could make it. There were people sending messages from around the world. We touched so many hearts. But when that was all over, I came back home to Victoria. And that's when I fell apart because I had no one else there to save or help or be focused on. And I confess I got into drinking and smoking marijuana and just died in my room.
Absolutely died in my room. And that went on for nearly a year. I went to work and came home because I had to, but I couldn't connect with anybody. I couldn't find a reason to get up and go. I was in a terrible state. I think there's several things that saved me. The first and foremost is that I do have a faith in God that I grew up with in my family and in my own personal experience. I've lived a spiritual life in my own way. I think it was that knowing the presence of God and that there was hope after disaster because I had seen it before in my life and other. But I started to get a sense of slap my face in the mirror, come on, Dave, what the hell are you doing here? You can't give up on life. And that's when that came to me in a dream with a very specific message. I had moved to Duncan. A friend in our circle of friends said, We have this family cabin in the countryside outside Duncan. Nobody's staying there right now. Maybe it will be a place today that you can find some peace, get out of the city.
So I did. I moved into this cabin and was trying to pick myself up. I wasn't doing a great job, but I was trying. And then I noticed that I was starting to get very sick in my intestines. Terrible pain and problems and going to the washroom became difficult. I started to think, Oh, my God. Do I have a cancer or something going on here? Is my grief manifesting in a physical way because I know it can do. So I got very scared. Now, I hate hospitalism. I hate doctors. Anyone who tells me that, that knows me. And I eat healthy food and keep a healthy mentality and drink lots of fresh water. So I was getting sicker and sicker and sicker and wondering, What the hell? I'm going to have to go to the hospital tomorrow morning, go to the emergency because something serious is going on. Well, that's the night that captured me in a dream. And I woke up in my dream. I was still asleep. I woke up in my dream and the water was running in the tap of the sink. I didn't leave that on. What's going on? So I get up and walk over to the sink and the water is just pouring into this sink.
And it smells funny. The water is smelling funny. And then the sink block and this sludgy water was filling up the sink and threatening to flood the sink. And I'm trying to turn the tap on and it won't turn on. Now I'm dreaming, of course, but this is all going on. And at that moment, I realized somebody's standing next to me. And I looked and right here, just like that photograph that you just saw, is my gorgeous daughter, shining, looking me right in the eye. And she pointed at the sink tap. And she said, Everything's going to be all right, Dad. You just need to take the pressure back a tap. I went, Oh, interesting. So I reached out and just touched the tab and it didn't empty the sink. It was clear, white, bright, shining, smelling, fresh sink. And I looked at her and smile and she looked me in the eyes again and said, Everything's going to be all right, Dad. And I wake up in bed going, What the hell was that? Where's Kat? I got up and ran outside looking for her because it was so real. Well, then I thought about, what was she telling me about this attack?
What was going on with the dirty sludgy? What's going on with that? So I phoned the landowner who knew the whole story about Kat, which that's why she offered me to have it. And she said, Well, that's strange because we've never had a problem with that Artisan well for 25 years. It's pure, pure water. But I'll get the guy in to check the water. And when she did, they discovered that some organic poison had gotten into the well. And I was drinking.
Poisoned water, thinking I'm getting fresh water to clean my system. And it was getting worse and worse and worse. So at that point, I went right and I went and bought some glassy water. The landlady got all well dressed. They got the whole world cleaned out, sort it out. But I stopped drinking that water. And within three days, there was no pain. And I've been healthy ever since. My daughter came to me and saved my life.
She saved your life.
Wow. Yeah. So that was the first turning point for me. I just knew the very fact that her spirit was still alive, communicating with me and giving me messages like this, so pertinent and so relevant in the moment, that gave me hope that her spirit was alive out there. And I turned a corner at that point, and that's when I stopped drinking. And I haven't drunk, but I've never been a drinker, but I stopped drinking. That was it. And started to get back into work. Now, I wasn't happy and glorious, but I had now a reason to believe in life again that she was still out there somewhere.
Yeah, I hope.
Yes. And you know the.
Other thing that happened? The greatest thing is love.
Well, love is the thing. It's all about love. We are all about love. And I just want to mention one thing, Pat, if I may, as my turning around. Shortly after that happened, I said to myself, Well, come on, Dave, just get up and go down to the coffee shop. Be with people. You don't have to connect with anyone. Let's start being with people again. Get out of this room. I've been dying in this room. So I did that. And I walked down to the coffee shop. And as I'm walking into the coffee shop, they wheeled this young man who was in a wheelchair. And he was one of these, forgive me, cerebral palsy, I think it is, like this. And as I passed him, he looked at me and he said, Isn't it a fantastic day? And I just cried. I just cried and I hugged him and I said, Thank you so much for that. And after he had left, I stood there and I looked at myself, perfect health, perfect physical specimen, perfect mind, friends to die for, family to die for, talent, opportunity. I had so much to live for. And this young man in that wheelchair was happier than me and more into life than I was at that moment.
That turned me around. That got me back to myself. And I started coming up again.
Oh, wow. There's just so much in what you just shared because going into that depth of despair is so common because the drinking and the smoking pot and whatever. I mean, that's that's not... When I'm working with people, it's like, don't shame your self for that. That's just a way of self medicating a trauma that's so crushing that it's just a way to survive during that period. But then you had this beautiful time with Kat and realizing that there is no true death. It's a transition but that she's here with you always. And caring and loving you so deeply and opening up your faith. And then you come across this gentleman in the wheelchair who to me is like an angel. It's like an angel sitting in that wheelchair just wanting to give you hope.
Yes, it was a blessing. It was a big blessing. At that moment, I needed a blessing like that. I needed my eyes to be opened again.
Oh, that's so beautiful. So you've been doing your art and music and all of that. And it's been 10 years now.
It was actually getting into the music that saved me and gave me a purpose again. And I did that because of something Kat said to me when she was here. She got to hear me play at the open stage on Salt Spring Island for the first time because I had never really done it. We were busy lives and I did it in the kitchen at night. And she heard me play and she came up to me, a teenage girl. You think she's going to be embarrassed? Oh God, dad's on stage. And then after I performed, she came up and she said, Dad, that was incredible. Dad, you wrote those songs. You should be doing your music, Dad. Never mind the art and all that other stuff. You should be doing your music. And I never forgot that. And that came back to me. And I thought, yeah, I'm going to take that from my girl because there's some reason in that other than me just wanting to spend time with the guitar. And as it happens, it's the music and the writing songs that have opened me up again and got me back into life again in so many ways.
Please forgive me. I'm going to grab a tissue.
That's okay. That's okay. Well, that's the beauty of this. And for people who are listening to this, I liken tears to grief is such a rocky, very hard. I liken it to a mountainside where there's ragged edges, right? And it's dangerous. And the fear of falling deep into the crevice of the mountains is just so devastating. But the tears to me just remind me of a waterfall, just constantly going over those rocks and smoothing the rough edges, allowing the rough edges to become smoother, shiner, and creating a new type of beauty. So out of the rag and this becomes this beautiful softening. And tears are so important. I know for my mother, who's a grieving mother, she never cried. And all of that stayed inside of her for so long. And it took her until 60 years after the death of my brother when I was finally able to communicate with her in a way that allowed her to open up those feelings. And she still hasn't cried, but she'll say to me, I'm crying inside. And it's like, okay, that's okay. It's okay. Whatever worked for you. But that's the beauty of I go back to if we had never loved, we would never grieve.
And so this grief is so important because it's a testimony of our love. And, David, there's just so much. I mean, you definitely have a story through your songs. And I know it's your beautiful paintings. And you found a medium, several different types of artistic medium to help you in your healing process and your faith and just getting this hope and this light in your life. And that's really why I want those people who are listening to us is you may be in the depths where David was and just feeling like there is no way I can get out of this. I've had more parents tell me versus not that they just wish they had died. They wish they could be dead. They wish that they could be. They can't imagine living without their child. That's common. I don't think it's suicidal ideation. I think that's just the reality is trying to figure out how you're going to live in this world without person who is so you love so deeply and you have so much love in your heart. So you may be, for those of you who are listening, in that deep, dark place.
But David is one he's been there. He's been so open and authentic and vulnerable, sharing his story with us to give you hope so that you can see this you have hope. There is hope and it's hanging on to that thread of faith. Whatever faith is for you, it's hanging on to that thread to help you so that you're not falling over the mountainside, that you're hanging on to that thread and having people that care for you, like these friends who offered you a place to stay, to help heal some of that deep brokenness. And then other people showing up in your life and then opening up yourself to hearing Kat and feeling Kat. I think when people are first grieving, it's very difficult for them to feel their loved one. And because you're in that insulated, I think that initial part of grief, it's trauma. Our mind just goes into lockdown and insulates you because it just needs to hold you together. And then as you start doing some healing and a little bit of repairing, then all of a sudden, if you can have that connection with your loved one, like you have with a cat, that to me is when healing really starts with all the people that I've worked with, once that they can realize death is not death.
I don't know how to explain that, but it's not like that's the end of the road and there's nothing more there.
That is the end.
Much more there.
And for the benefit of anyone who might be hearing, I'm not going to tell a story about some big stuff like it because I considered suicide when I was drinking in my room after the event. I considered suicide, and I am not a person to consider that. I'm a very upbeat, walking in faith, loving life person. But that deep, wide, aching chasm, a brief, was so terrible. I didn't know what to do with myself. And I considered driving off the mountain. It's funny you mentioned the mountain. I'm just going to drive my car off the cliff. I don't want to do this. It's too painful to do. Obviously, Kat's message to me saved me in doing that. And I hope she doesn't mind me mentioning in case she hears this, but her mom actually tried to commit suicide. She took a bottle of pills. This was our only child, and she was, of course, devastated. She took a bottle of pills. They rushed her to the hospital and pumped her stomach out and saved her life. And she was pissed off that they'd saved her life because she was in such a horrible place with the pain.
So there is no easy way through this, but there is a way through this. And Kat's messages helped us. And can I share another story?
Absolutely.
Now, this was on the anniversary of Kat's death that we always spoke to each other. Remember, we're divorced, separated, but it brought us together as friends because of Kat and her legacy. So I get this phone call from her mom at three o'clock in the morning and she said, you're not going to believe this. Now, I'll just fill you in. Mariam had become depressed and suicidal. She'd given up on life. She was doing daily... What the hell? All her friends were saying, we've given up trying to reach her. She's angry, depressed. It's insane. There's no reaching her. Well, Kat came to her in a dream, and this is what she said, Mum, love is the food and the fuel of the afterlife from us and to us. And Mariam wrote this message down in the middle of the night. And she phoned me and she said that was Kat. It was her. There was no doubt about it.
Now, after she had had time to actually digest those words and the connot of those words, it saved her completely. And she said now she gets up every morning and sends love to Kat in the afterlife. But she knows her spirit is alive and still loving us and caring about us. So she saved her mom's life with that message. And that message is touched a lot of people too.
Love is.
The food and the fuel of the afterlife, from us and to us. There is a place called the afterlife that our spirits go to. This is what I get from this. She is still there alive and loving us, and we can send her love to from here.
Beautiful. I wrote it down. Is that all right?
Absolutely. Please share it with anyone.
I would love to share that because that's what we said. Faith, hope, and love and love is the greatest of these. There's a reason some of these sayings and biblical sayings and all of that have hung around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years is because they're so true. And love really is what cats love for you. And to have saved both of our parents' lives. And I would imagine that she knew so many people. There's probably more that she could save that you probably have never even heard of. That she's probably doing her magic throughout the world with lots of friends.
In actual fact, there are other stories of her touching other people, her favorite people. She came to them, too.
Yeah. And so that's really a it. I am so appreciative of you sharing this. Now, I hope you don't mind, but I know from your dear fiance, the 10 year anniversary was a little bit more difficult. True?
Yes, it was. I don't know why, but it all came back like a ton of bricks on me. I cannot explain why because I've been actually working my way out of grief and back into life. And then I meet this beautiful young man. There's a whole new hope in my life. But something happened. And as it happened, I was called to write a letter to Kat as a therapeutic tool to help me with all this. I wrote that letter. I went and meditated at my studio and actually stayed there for a couple of days to get myself around it. And I wrote a 21 page letter to Kat. And in that letter, I purged my heart and purged my feelings. And it really, really helped something. I can't explain why. Judy could probably explain it better than me because she works in this therapy and I'm totally appalling. But it changed something, Pat. It changed something. And I felt like a bus had been lifted off my back. And it was that letter was art therapy, if you like. Now, I just want to mention, I have worked with art therapy, helping people with social problems, abuse victims, recovering drug addict, alcoholics, using art and music as therapy.
And I had never applied this to myself, ever, because I was always using it to help others. But this was my time to do that therapy with myself. And writing that letter, I don't know what happened, but I feel like a completely new starter. So I would recommend that to anyone who's dealing with this.
Yeah. And as you mentioned that now, I just sent you my book.
Thank you so much.
But that's part of what I actually have just for people who... This is my book is how do I survive seven steps of living after child loss. And that's part of one of the exercises that I have my clients do, and that I have in the book is write the letter to your child, not about your child, but to your child, but truly having that communication because, again, it's having that spiritual connection. I am such a strong believer in energy and knowing that energy transforms at a constant rate constantly. Our energy is always transforming. And so with death, it's a transformation. It's moving into another energetic form. And once we are able to, some people say, connect beyond the veil or raise our consciousness or get to a higher dimension, we can then meet up with that. I know for myself that I've had that experience so many times, but you are the walking talking truth of this is what can occur once you're able to open up your mind and your heart is connecting and with your child, with your loved ones so that it's not that you're alone. You miss that physical and that will always be that grief that you're dealing with.
Grief doesn't go away. You have healing periods in the 10 years. I appreciate that you are talking about that. I have a girlfriend where it was 10 years last year, and her 10th year was the most difficult year for her because 10 years seems like a long time. And part of it is the fear of forgetting or maybe moving away from it. And I just knew that that 10th year, I just intuitively knew it was going to be very difficult for her. And so I made sure that I was there even more for her during this time. And we were able to really talk about her son. And so I think those are some of those first, the 10 year anniversary. That's a first. You're always going to have these things. The hard.
Part of all that was birthdays and Christmas. When her birthday comes around and Christmas comes around, we fall apart again. Every year that happened. Things have just shifted.
What kind of things, I'm just going to ask you this, have you created any a special way of dealing with her birthday, celebrating her, or whatever, even your own personal ceremony, whatever that is during these times? Because I know that we want to always keep our loved one alive and their memories alive. So what do you do when it is her birthday or it's Christmas?
Yes, that is relevant actually, because every year that comes around, there is a place here on Dallas Road called Fonyo Beach. Now, Catherine was in Victoria at one point in the Victoria Lady's Sophie, and she lived here for a while. So Fonyo Beach was a place we remember. So we spread some of her ashes, a little vial of her ashes, on Fonyo Beach as a pilgrimage spot to go and be there with her. And every year, I take a red rose down to Fonyo Beach and plant it in the sand for the ocean to come and take it away. And I sit and talk with her and pray and feel her presence in that way. And that's a ritual now for me on her birthday.
That's beautiful. And I really highly recommend that for any of you who are grieving out there is find whatever it is for you that feels right for you. Some people may have a birthday cake and actually do a birthday celebration with their families. Others may have these private ceremonies like you do, just connecting and reflecting and knowing. And if your friend has experienced this deep loss, just be cognizant of that and just be there for them in whatever way that they want to be. So if they want to be silent and do it in a silent, then just hold the space for them to do that and surround them and love. My friend that I was talking about, she does a big motorcycle rally and raises money for the military. The veterans. And so she does that every year. And now it's the 11th year she's doing it. So she does that. So as a friend, I'm going to be there and help volunteer in that. So if you are friend or family members of grieving parents, just be there for them. You talked about your cat's mom, and some of her friends started falling away because they had tried so hard.
And if you are a friend or family member of someone where it feels like you just can't get through, then pray. Hold them in love because that is an energy that can help them and be there for them when they're ready to come out of that shell and re emerge into life. Be there for them without judgment. Without their love.
I know you already know this, but everybody grieves differently, too. And you've got to just let them be who they are, what they're doing in their grief.
And I know you've mentioned to me, too, I think it was, were you connected with Compassionate friends? Yes. Is that a good group for you?
I actually, yeah. This happened just after Mariam got her message from her daughter that I had heard about the Compassionate Friends group and said, Well, I'm going to go down and check them out, see what's going on there. So I did. And in actual fact, it was another opportunity for Catherine to send a message. And if you want, I'll share that story. Yeah. Okay. The first evening, now Compassionate friends are all people who have lost children. If you haven't lost a child, you don't understand what this grief is all about. Losing a loved one, losing a sibling, losing your parents. It's all grief. There's no big grief or small grief. But losing a child somehow has this special depth to it. And so they all gather to support each other. So the routine is, and this is my first evening there, we sit in a circle of chairs in the room. There was about 15 or 16 people. And everyone has an opportunity to speak and share their feelings. And it doesn't matter if you want to swear at God or tell stories of your loved one or relive the nightmare of the death.
It doesn't matter what it is. Everyone just holds that sight until it's their turn. Well, we went around the circle a little bit, and the first thing I discovered was that I thought I had the worst story in the room, and I found out that, no, I didn't have the worst story. There were other stories I wouldn't even go into that were far worse. So that in itself was a help to me with my grief. But I told the story of love is the food and the fuel of the afterlife, the message she sent to her mom, and it touched everybody in the room. Now quickly, the first evening, there was a young woman sitting by herself over by the door on a chair crying, but wasn't part of the circle. And the lady next to me said she just lost her only son a month ago, one month ago. She said she can't speak or do anything, but she heard about us. She just wants to be in the room. So we held that space for her. Okay, cut to the chase. A month later, the next meeting. So I went to the second meeting and we're sitting in the circle and that young woman wasn't there.
But she walked into the room halfway through the meeting and interrupted the meeting and apologized for interrupting. But she said, I just had to come tonight to talk to you, David. And I went, What? I didn't know this one. What did I do? You know what I mean? What's going on? She said, Your daughter, Kat, came to me and spoke to me in a dream. And she said, Tell my dad, I know my dad's having a hard time. Tell my dad I'm okay. But she said, I really came for you because I'm here in the afterlife with your son, David, incidentally, and I'm taking care of him in the afterlife. Your son has got a message for you. And the message for you. The message is you must not give up on life. And that's when she broke down and she said, I was contemplating suicide. The pain was too much for her and she was going to end it. And Kat stopped her from committing suicide. And as far as I know, because I haven't been in touch since, as far as I know, she made it through because of Katherine's message, which touched everybody in the room again.
So you did not give up on life.
And this girl of yours, her purpose is so much even bigger in the afterlife. I mean, she really is this beacon of light and hope and, oh, my gosh. And this strength that she has to just really come forward and say, hey, we're going to help you in this process because you need to know up here, we're all doing well.
We're all fine up here.
Yeah. We're dancing and having a great time. And we love you. And it's like, Kat is not going to let anybody ever forget that they are loved. Right. Ever. Oh, that is just so powerful.
It's incredible. And Kat, she was such a darling heart always. She took care of everybody. She loved her friends, loved her cats, loved the dragonflies. She was such a beacon of love and caring. And her mom and I, Jo, actually had our first laugh that she now is working in the afterlife taking care of everybody out there because that was her nature down here.
What a beautiful soul. I feel like I know her. I just can feel her energy and her deep love. Your message here today is just so incredible. And I know that it's going to get out to so many people, David. And I am just so grateful. I'm so grateful that you allowed me to sit in this space in the honor of listening to your story. Thank you. You are in my heart. Kat is in my heart. All of you are so deeply because this is why we're here. We're here to share that there's more to life than this. It's so much bigger and love is the overriding. This is if we love and we hold love and we share our love, this is how we all heal. This is where the healing comes from. Wow. We've spent an hour here. Can you believe it? Oh, I can't believe it. Isn't that awesome? It's not awesome. It's not awesome because I just have to share. David was a little bit nervous, like, Oh, my gosh. I can get up on stage and sing and do my music. And this is a little unnerving for me. But this is the beauty of sharing and being able to hold space for one another is that time just flows.
And that's the other thing is I was telling my friend where it had been 10 years since Ben had died, and I said, 10 years on this earthly realm seems like a long period of time. But I think that in that other dimension and the after, it's just a split second. It's like they haven't been gone and so it's a split second. Something seemed so long and taking such time, but just knowing that really there's never an ending. This is a never-ending love. Your children are always with you and love you as deeply and desperately as you love them. And that hang on to that. Hang on to that, hang on to that. And know that there are so many people, like compassionate friends. There are the Davids of the world that I know he would sit down and talk to anybody who's a grieving parent and a grieving dad and hold space because people did it for him. There's people like his beautiful love and fiance, Juney. They got engaged at the age of 70, which was so uber cool. It's so awesome. I can't even express how absolutely thrilled I am for the both of you to be able to enjoy this love.
I'm 62, so I'm a little bit younger than them, but still to be able to have this... They're just so in love. It's just beyond belief. But Juney, there's people like his fiancée, Juney. She's a psychotherapist, she's a writing coach, and she helps people express themselves and express the stories like what David just shared and express them in writing books and different things like that. So I'm going to make sure that I have contact information and also for David's work. I mean, he sells paintings. He does some of that. So I want to have all of that in here. So I'll make sure that all of that is there. How you can be in contact with Descanse Jr. If you're interested in writing your story or figuring out how to write story. I mentioned that I have this book, How do I Survive? Seven Steps for Living After Child Loss. Again, I am not, and I'm just going to explain that real quick. I am not the person who experienced the death of a child. I was a child born into a grieving family. So it's a little bit different perspective. But when we talk about spiritual connection, I believe that my brother was reborn.
I know that it's not a belief. It's a knowing that he was reborn through me because my life purpose, my soul's purpose, our soul's purpose is to be here and help heal family grief and to help parents. Because I can't say that I know what it feels like I don't. And I hope to God I never have to experience this. But what I know is I have had the honor of working with so many grieving parents, and they've shared their stories, and they've shared different things that have worked for them. And what hasn't, and I've been the scribe, I've taken all of their wisdom and put it into a book to help other people. So I'm not the expert. The experts who wrote this are all the people like the Davids of the world. I was prescribed. I took it and I'm here to hold space and be that container to help as you're walking through this very difficult path of child loss. So, David, I love you. I love Junee. I am just so honored and so blessed to know you and that Juney came in my life. I know that we're all connected here.
I'm getting tears in my eyes. I feel like Kat's right here like, oh, this is so cool. I love you all so much. And thank you. Thank you for doing me the honor of this interview.
You're very welcome.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Death knows no boundaries and Jay Pernu's story shows us the painful reality of drug addiction beginning with a prescription for opioids after his son experienced a sports injury. Jayson Pernu grew up in a loving home and was a talented, young baseball player until an injury sidelined him and led him on the path of addiction which ultimately took his life.
Jay talks about what support has really helped him as a grieving father.
He has found his voice through writing and speaking publicly as a way to raise awareness of the impact of opioid addiction and to honor his beautiful child.
If you are grieving the death of your child and would like to get a free copy of Pat Sheveland's book: How Do I Survive? 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss, go to: www.healingfamilygrief.com and order your copy today.
Grief is not meant to be done alone so please reach out if you are feeling isolated or abandoned in your grief.
You can reach Pat at: patsheveland@msn.com.
#griefandlosssupport #griefsupport
Shownotes:
Hi, thank you so much. It is Pat Shepard again, and I am here with Jay Pernu, who is a grieving dad. I connected with him just through Facebook. I think it's just through Facebook interactions. And he had written a beautiful poignant post not all that long ago. And so I just said, Would you be interested in having me interview you? Because as you know, I... Oh, I just get my screen. As you know, I am always so honored when a grieving parent will share their story with me. And as I just told Jay, I think it's so important for those who grieve to be able to share their stories. But also it is so incredibly healing for other people to hear those stories, especially if you are grieving the death of your child to know that you're not alone out there. There's so many parents that are here and they're willing to bring their energy to you. And together that's a healing process. So, Jay, welcome so much.
Thanks for having me.
Great. So you wrote this beautiful post a while back, and you are very eloquent in your writing. Now, I don't see a lot of it because I think it probably comes in waves for you as grief does and as healing does. But you wrote just a beautiful post and you talked about going to the ball field and that type of thing. Could you just start out by sharing a little bit about your story and about your family and just sharing what feels right for you this morning?
Well, I guess I'll start with my family. I have a wife, Vicky, and a daughter, Jenna remaining. My daughter's 30. My son, Jason, who passed away a little over a year ago. It was last May. He would be 26 or 28 this month. I mean, it's 26 when he passed away. He passed away from an overdose, opioid overdose. And I guess I'll go back to where it started. He was a very good baseball player, very good pitcher in high school all through his life, actually. And in between his junior and senior year, he hurt his arm just playing a pickup football game. So long story short, he missed his senior year, which just crushed him. And he did have surgery prior to his senior year, trying to possibly play, but it didn't work out for him. So he sat on the bench and watched and had a tough year at it. And shortly after that, he graduated. He went to a local college and was able to play some ball there. He started changing quite a bit. And we didn't know what it was, if it was just a growth thing. And we went through two, three years of not knowing what was going on.
And ended up, he finally came out one day and said, Dad, I'm hooked on opioids. I started back when I had my surgery on my shoulder and I could kick it for a while. Then I came back. So he rode this roller coaster for a while. He'd be good, he'd be bad, he'd be... It was tough. And then it progressively got worse. We believe what we wanted to believe. We didn't know what to believe. When you're in that state, you're a master manipulator. He was telling us things we wanted to hear. We were both busy with our careers and trying to make a living. And towards the end, it was probably a five, six year struggle. My wife and I went to work out one morning. We work out early in the morning, like at five, and we came home and we found him passed away. And like I said a year ago, and it turned out it was an overdose. We guess that, but we just didn't know. It was a tough six years of our life, five, six years of our life, and it hasn't gotten much easier. But we know he's at peace, which is good.
And that's where he stand today.
And just in that hole, because when you have a five or six year process, and I'm speaking with some familiarity around this because my niece passed away years ago and hers was a long process. And you never knew and you're just waiting for that other shoe to drop. But then you get hope and then it's just that's the roller coaster. But then all of a sudden the reality hits when you come upon them and find that they have transitioned on. So my heart is just I'm a registered nurse by background and I worked in the war comp field for 25 years. And towards the latter, I've been gone there for five years, almost six years. But we really started working on the opioid epidemic within our own organization because we know that that is really, I'd say, the gateway because if you can't get a hold of the opioids and the doctors aren't able to prescribe anymore and that type of thing, what's the next thing is going out onto the streets and finding drugs such as heroin or something like that. And then now with the horrible things that are going on where people are just lacing it, I've known too many families that have experienced this.
And yeah, it is absolutely tragic. So talk to me a little bit. So it's been a little over a year. I like to talk a little bit about the differences in grieving in a family because when I work with my clients, I encourage them to find support systems that aren't just necessarily the family. That's one support system. But what I found, and perhaps you've seen this too, is you go on different trajectories. You may not be on a different path than your wife is or that your daughter is. And so can you talk a little bit about what that's been like in the last year?
Yeah. And you're totally right. It's different paths. I don't know what Vicky's feeling. I don't know what Jen is feeling. Luckily, we're not at each other's throats over all this. We give each other our space. And myself, my first thing was to read books, learn more about what took my son. How to Grieve was a big one for me. And not so much how to grieve, but what to expect, which was very helpful for me. Read your book, someone sent it to me. So I did a lot of reading, research. My wife probably isn't so much that way at all. She's more just motherly and internalizes it, talks to whoever she can, which is a similarity for me. The thing that really helped me with grieving is talking to people. I know there's probably people that don't even want to hear me talk about it or are sick of it, but anyone who listens is a great help to me. People would always come to me. I just don't know what to say. I said, If you can just listen, that'll be great. I talked through it and it was very helpful for me. And another thing I'm trying to do is put together something to raise opioid awareness, maybe start a nonprofit.
I started right away, maybe three, four months into it, but I was just so exhausted and drained. And I still feel some of the after effects of it. The grief is such a physical thing. It is, at least for me, and it just hits you at times. You're just exhausted. You don't know why. But I think it's because your mind never turns off. But to answer your question, a lot of things, I developed a ribbon, purple ribbon with Jason's initials on it. And I've got that on can coolers and shirts. And it's a bittersweet thing for me. You're excited to get it out there. But it's like, Why do I even have to do this? But I guess my thing is, the day he passed, I remember, it was yesterday I was standing outside in shock and I just said, Something good has passed to come out of this. Something good. And I've always remembered that. And hopefully if I can help one kid, or if we can, it's not a personal journey. But if our family can, that would be great. So my daughter, Jenna, she's a little more subdued. I don't know what she's thinking.
I don't see her all the time. So I worry about her a lot. And I just hope she's finding ways to breathe health in a healthy manner.
And you just touched on so many things that I've learned. My book was not, and I tell people this, all the information I got out of the book and put into those steps was really from grieving parents and families. You all are my wisdom keepers. And I just was able to take that information, gather the stories and the information and put it into a program that, again, is not cookie cutter. It's just giving some thoughts and ideas. But you touched upon some things that I think are so critically important is to understand that grief is exhausting. It's hard work to grieve, very hard work. And people, I don't think quite understand that until you're in it. But it's just as you said, your mind is constantly going. And I think for a lot of guys, especially that I've connected with, you're doers. So that's part of it is getting into action and moving some of that energy through that way. And you touched upon that, developing the ribbons and thinking about the nonprofit and that type of thing. For anybody who's listening to this where this has not affected your family, I guarantee you at some point you are going to be affected by someone in your family is going to experience a deep loss if you don't.
And I hope it doesn't happen to you. But unfortunately, the statistics are out there that it's happened to Jay, it's happened in my family, happened in so many people that I've touched base with. But just being able to sit and meet the person who's grieving like Jay, just meet him where he's at. We don't have to say something. Silence can be such a beautiful thing to sit and let me listen and listen to me and let me talk. Which brings me to another point is how important it is to honor your child, whatever that looks like. So you created the purple ribbons with Jason's name and putting him on everything. But you're also taking a look at that bigger picture of, okay, his life was not going to be for not. There's a purpose. There's a reason, and you want to go out there and help others. And that's where I know that I have seen with so many grieving parents and grieving spouses, but especially grieving parents is when you can take some of that exhaustive energy, it is exhausting, but channel it into something that where you're helping another family, another person, that is where some true healing can begin.
But healing, grief is always there. To me, it's, and I've shared this many times, but I view it as I'm a nurse, so I think about it as like in medical terms, if we were crushed by a horrible injury and just suffered something just severely traumatic physically to our body, oftentimes we're taken to the hospital and our physicians may put us in an induced coma. Grief does that, the emotional coma to help when you first are stepping on this horrific path to start healing. And so then you're numb for a while, right? Like you said, you tried doing some of this, even three to four months out. Might have been a little soon because your body is still doing some of that healing. And then as you start emotionally healing from this very traumatic event, it's just baby steps. I liken that to being in the hospital. And first, you might just dangle your feet over the edge of the bed. Then they might get you up and stand you on your feet. Then they might get you into the chair and have you sit for 15, 20 minutes. It's just building that strength again.
That's the healing process. So if we don't grieve and don't go through that process, then you may not find that healing. And I talk about my own parents, and I coin the phrase that it was failed grief for them because they never were able to talk about it. No one listened. They just pushed it under the rug because that's what you did back then and never were able to honor their child. So you're doing all the steps. I mean, I think that your research and doing what you needed to do in those beginning phases is very helpful for the people that are listening here because it takes action. It does take to, even though you don't want to a lot of times. Yeah, I agree. Our families may be on a different path. And so what are some of the things now that really you have found helpful, whether it's physical things that you're doing or spiritual or mental emotional? What are some of the things, J that you found over the last year that have been really helpful for you? And are there some things that were not so helpful?
Yeah, there's a lot of things that are helpful. The spiritual part, we actually found a church in the middle of all this while Jason was still alive, which thank God, and it helped us a lot and it still does. I'm very thankful that we weren't pushed away from the church when this happened. We actually became stronger with it, which was awesome. I know it can go either way, and I'm glad that's the way it went. One thing that you mentioned was the baby steps. I don't think Vicky, my wife, or is as good as that. She put grief by the side a little bit and just focused on her work. I tried to at least grieve somehow, not ignore it. Like I said, doing things with the ribbon. But big thing for me was the Facebook post. I would do one a month on the anniversary of his passing. I just started at one month and it just kept going through a year. And that was physically exhausting. You probably read it in five minutes, but it felt like it took 10 hours to do and it probably took 10 minutes to write. It was easy to write because it just poured right out of your heart.
And I normally didn't think I was that person, but that has helped immensely to write about it. And just to read people just sharing and how many people are in the same boat. That helped a lot to talk to people that had the same situation. I had a son or daughter that passed, and you don't wish for that. But it was sure helpful when you talked to people. And I guess what I learned from that is how differently people grieve. I might have found some of that was almost in the exact same situation, but they were very bitter. They were mad at whoever gave them the drugs. And not that that's wrong, they should be. But I was like, Nothing I can do now. Let's move on. And like you said, a good word is honor. The big thing for me is to honor Jason somehow. I couldn't fix it. Like you said, a guy, you're trying to fix everything. Didn't fix it. You feel like you really failed. But now I found that it's very helpful to just move on and do what I can and hopefully help someone else and help myself at the same time as well as my family.
Absolutely. And I can see that and I can hear that. And I actually am very excited to get this out because as you know, I'm getting out there more with groups and that type of thing on Facebook and social media just because I just want to be able to, like you, just be able to share with others. Because I know people grieve so differently, and it breaks my heart when I see those that are just they're so deep in their own depression and their deep grief and not feeling like there's any light anywhere. And I'm so glad to hear about your spiritual family and that spiritual faith because I know that that's extremely important. If we think that this is all there is, well, then, of course, it's going to be very, very difficult to be able to see any future because it's like, well, this is all there is. Where when we have a spiritual component, we know that there's something beyond this earthly existence and that Jason's life, his living and his death are actually what is helping other people. And it doesn't sound right or fair or any of that thing. Absolutely not.
But to honor and be able to share your story, I think, is so deeply important. And that's what I've seen for people that are able to... And I don't even want to call it successfully grief. It's just to not have that failed grief because we know that failed grief, when we're not dealing with it, can create so many things. It can break up families and relationship. It can cause very serious physical issues, certainly the emotional pieces, some people even start losing their jobs and everything because it's just like they just can't handle it. And so if we can get out there and share and be able to give hope, hope. And I coined the phrase, and you might have seen that in my book, too, but I coined this a long time ago, hope as the acronym for honoring our purpose every day. And that may be something very small one day. And it could be something huge like getting out there on public stages and talking about opioid addictions and what's out there.
Yeah, that's a big goal of mine. I did speak at a college before COVID came, right before. So I had the opportunity to do it for a couple of nursing classes. And it was such a nice platform. And I was exhausted when I was done, but I was so glad I did it. And people were so interested in it. In their class, you could tell they knew about opioids, what they did, the chemistry of it, but they didn't really see the personal side that much and what they actually do to people. And yeah, that's my hope to continue to do that.
That is so beautiful. So beautiful. Anything else that you want to share with people, just any insight, any piece of wisdom as a dad who's still fairly new at this... It's been a year since the physical death. You had several years before that of a lot of grieving in and out. Anything at all that you would like to share?
I would say grieving is hard work, but I think part of it is you have to let yourself go down in the dumps a little bit once in a while, just feel it and feel bad. I mean, it's not bad to say, What could I have done better? And that thing. But you got to limit your time at doing that. You can't just ignore it. You have to go there. For me personally, I have to go there and say, Man, did I really screw this up? And maybe I did. But then come back and say, Well, what can you do now? And again, the grieving part, like I said, it's physical, it's mental. One of my worries when he first passed was, am I going to forget about him? I feel really bad. I almost want to feel this bad all the time. And yeah, there's no worries there. It doesn't go away. And as I'm sure you know, I can see myself 10 years from now feeling the same way, and that's okay. And I'm sure in 10 years, we probably would have made a lot of progress, too, and things that would have made Jason proud.
Absolutely. And I'm glad that you brought that up. I actually have a friend of mine, her son died at the age of 21. This was a military incident, but it's 11 years now. And she did pretty darn good for the first 10. She kept busier than heck. She was busy, busy, busy creating awareness, getting up on stages and talking, has a benefit in his honor where she raises funds for veterans and big component about talking about organ donation, that type of thing. And I just knew, having known her, that I could just sense that there was a bit of a crash going to be coming. And year 10 was really, really tough for her because of that fear of forgetting. Oh, my gosh, it's been 10 years. And that was just a huge struggle. I've been doing all this stuff. And we had lots of wonderful conversations about that because she needed to go in deep. She had to go in deep that year 10. That was important to her in order to be able to successfully get out of that. So I appreciate what you're saying is, yeah, it's okay. All feelings are okay.
And I think people sometimes feel ashamed or that they should have, could have, would have, and should be thinking that. And these bad thoughts should be in their mind. You can't process if you're not thinking about it. And so, again, I love the wisdom that you have is you're just not staying in it for too long. So do you have one little piece of what works for you to when you're going into that darkness, so to speak, and into that deep sadness or anger or whatever the emotion is, what does one thing that helps to bring you out of it? Is there something that you do physically or mentally to pull that trigger to help you get moving?
Physically, if I'm really down, I like to go for a walk and just enjoy nature and see what God created and just know that Jason's watching me walk. He knows what I'm doing. He knows I'm thinking of him. Because usually when I'm down there, it's more of a guilty thing. It's what could I have done better? But in the end, in my mind, I know that there's nothing more I probably could have done or nothing more we could have done. And then he's good with it. He might have left on a bad note, but he's in the best place he can be right now. And it just helps me to see nature and see his face in clouds and everything. That cardinal that just moved by, that was Jason looking, things like that. It's healing for me.
You'll see, I have a cardinal right up above me. I got a picture of my head. That and butterflies. So that is so awesome. And I agree, nature is so healing in so many ways. And I really encourage people to, if you're feeling like that, just stepping outside the door, opening up the window and listening to a bird sing and just breathing. Breathing is just so very, very important. So, J, I really appreciate it because I know it's not easy to talk about this. And some days it's probably easier than other days. And I am, as always, so honored when someone like you is sharing your story, sharing your son, because I feel like your child is just right here. Jason's right here. I felt that since I think one of your first posts early on. Just a beautiful child who absolutely is so happy that you are honoring him, remembering him, and serving to help others. And so that's really beautiful thing. So thank you so much. I'm so honored that you spent some time with me this morning and with all the people who will be watching this in the future.
Yeah, thank you, Pat. And like I said, it helps to talk through this thing. It's another healing day for me.I appreciate it.
Wonderful. Well, just hang on. I'm going to say goodbye to everybody here and have a wonderful week, everybody.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Clark Hoelscher, PhD (they/ them) is a life-long partner to those on learning journeys who believes all learning begins with authentic and purposeful relationships. Most of their work has been under the title "educator" in and around schools, colleges, and the institutions around them. They engage communities around justice, healing, and transformation. Their favorite event each year is Q-Quest, which brings almost 1,000 young LGBTQIA2+ people and their adult advocates together from middle and high schools across Minnesota for learning, fun, and leadership!
Dr. Hoelscher's work with grief is rooted to times of identity transformation. For instance, in roles like "student" to "teacher" or within families such as "mother of a daughter" to "mother of a son." They have found acknowledging loss during these transformations openly has been imperative to desired growth and sustained relationships.
You can reach Dr. Hoelscher at: clark.hoelscher@gmail.com
#griefcoach #howtohelpsomeonewithgrief
Shownotes:
Hi, everybody. I am just so excited. It's a Friday, almost afternoon here in beautiful sunny Minnesota. I'm just really excited for my guest today. Let me tell you a little bit about Clark. Clark Hoelscher, she has a Ph.D. So she's a doctor, is a lifelong partner to those on learning journeys who believe all learning begins with authentic and purposeful relationships. That's beautiful. Most of their work has been under the title Educator, in and around schools, colleges, and the institutions around them. They engage communities around justice, healing, and transformation. Their favorite event each year is QQEST, which brings almost a thousand young LGBTQIA2 plus people and their adult advocates together from middle and high schools. This is so dear to me. Across Minnesota for learning, fun, and leadership. Dr. Hoelscher's work with grief is rooted to times of identity transformation. For instance, in roles like student to teacher, or within families such as mother of a daughter to mother of a son. They have found acknowledging loss during these transformations openly has been imperative to desired growth and sustained relationships. Dr. Clark Hoelscher. I'm just so excited actually just to be totally forthright with everybody here. We've known each other for a really, really, really long time in a family relationship, but we have never sat down in a professional conversation like this.
She knows I'm very curious all the time. She shared a beautiful private post with me when I had put something out about the grieving aspect. So, Clark, welcome.
Yeah, it's so good to be so good to be here with you, Pat. Thank you so much. My pronoun is they, and I just want to acknowledge that there's even these little ways. As we make change that even something as little as adjusting to someone's pronoun change is a transformation. And even when it's something that doesn't feel like it's really that big of a deal, it can even have some elements of grief to it and a little bit of confusion and disorientation and some anger. And there's a little bit of resistance and negotiation. It has all of those same components.
Thank you for that because it's all learning for me, too, right? It is. And we're all.
Always learning. I really believe that learning is in partnerships and that I always want to meet folks exactly where they're at and then just establish care and relationship and then move to the next step and the next step. And so I'll tell folks, I don't have any judgment about where you're starting from because the universe made you whole and wonderful and you are just who you are meant to be. And though the universe has brought you to me, and so what we're going to do is we're going to have a path and we're moving forward. And as long as you're going to be with me on this path and this journey together, then I'm going to be beside you moving that way. I just really like to put that aside. So we are family. And I've always felt, though, this connection on the educator healer side. But when there's lots of people around and so many like little's with. Their needs and desires, it's just sometimes hard to have those deeper conversations. So excited to be here today.
I know. This is so cool. It's so cool. So as people who know me know that I work in the grief coaching space, and we were just talking about before we came on to the video about how vast that is, that right now I'm actually helping the healers, helping the teachers, helping the coaches to get more confident to hold the space in grieving families. And the grief is not necessarily the physical death of a loved one. It can be all these things. And so I put something out on Facebook, and then you had private messaged me, and you started talking about some different components of grief that you have seen in your work and in your life. And so do you want to just jump in and share a little bit and let's talk about them?
Yeah. A lot of the work that I do is towards creating learning environments where instructors and students are invited to bring their whole selves fully into the space. And I deeply believe that there's not going to be a lot of good learning that's possible unless folks have a good relationship and have trust with each other and can be truthful and honest with each other and have a good container where that relationship can be held because learning often involves a couple falls and some can involve a couple of little... There can be some missteps. Even learning to bike, you anticipate that you hope no one's going to get hurt too bad, but it's good to have a first aid kit ready and to set up as many proactive safety measures as possible. So part of that work that I do, I realized very early as a coach working with new teachers that there was often a lot of fear. And as they were making changes, moving from their identity from a student into their identity as a teacher.
So there were all these fears, and there was sometimes anger and sadness and just a lot of these complex emotions. And as I was just inquiring, what's going on with this? I realized that it was grief. And so these identity transformations, anytime that someone is moving from one big concept of themselves to another big concept of themselves, either because they're choosing it, or sometimes because life has thrust it upon them. Grief is a big part of it. And so as my own career and work changed, I started really working on identity transformations where folks were being invited to see themselves in a very different way. So to construct a teacher identity that was really centering students of color and that was big enough to contain the frameworks for justice. And that might sometimes be at least... And folks would struggle. And there would be some of that negotiation and that anger and that sadness because they might perceive that there was some conflict about their old sense of self and the new sense of self that they were being invited towards. And so I just started really working with folks to name that. And one thing I observed pretty early was for a lot of white folks, and I was a lot of the time working with white women, even talking about emotions and identifying emotions was really challenging.
And so every time I find, well, here's the thing that's hard for the people that I'm working with. So what tools are available? And so I'm always learning. And so I use tools like feelings wheels. And it's like part of that practice is like, okay, what are you feeling right now? How are you feeling today? How are you doing today? And just constantly checking in the coaching and my work with them around where their feelings are and just making space for that whole grief process and just really naming what you're experiencing is part of this change.
And there's some grief going on here. And so can you tell me about what comes up for you when I name it that way.
And that's beautiful. And the naming, I just did a post on Facebook because I am doing a coaching group for new grief coaches to help them get more confident. And I had them do some practice coaching with each other on Wednesday night. And someone named something and it was, your grief is in action or something, or action is your grief, how you deal with it. And I'm like, Wow, that is so cool that you named that. Because all of a sudden I actually looked at it for myself because my mother had, you know, grandma Ruth died in January and all of a sudden I'm like, Wow, that's the way I handle grief as I'm in action. But it was so cool because this naming concept is so important to put it out there and lay it out on this table so that you can really feel it. And everybody has a right to their own feelings, right? But when we name it, then we can start having awareness about, Okay, where is that coming from?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's very powerful names themselves are very powerful things. And so that's another transformation that I work with folks around is around gender transitions. And this is a transformation that folks aren't often expecting. So I work with a lot of parents, and the way that this is revealed is... O ften times parents have a little bit of a sense of... Parents know their child on such a deep way that sometimes it's hard to even put words to. So often they have a child and they're born into the world. And often in our culture and the way our medical systems work now, the gender is assigned of their child, I think, six weeks. So just like one body part glimpsed and gender is assigned and colors in rooms are assigned. And so they're just like, immediately all of these identities start developing and all these contexts begin to develop.
And this whole trajectory and imagined future begins to be there. And every parent, I'm sure, totally understands this. And we're in the culture that we're in. And so there's no getting around it. I've definitely known parents who don't want to know the gender of their child and even tried to keep the body part of their child out of public knowledge. And it's just really hard. I can't even go walk my dog without someone asking me, Oh, is it a boy or a girl? So there's all those messages around us all the time. And so we have this identity and this culture of gender. And so sometimes when parents find out that their child is a different gender than they've known them as, there's an enormous journey then, and it's so complex. And I 100 % completely believe every parent loves their child, and they want what's best for their child. But no one's prepared for, well, how do you do what's best for your child if you find out their gender is different than you thought it was? That was not included in any Dr. Sears book I read. It was not talked about in any prenatal visit I had. Any child birthing? No, absolutely not. So there's no reason why any parent would have any preparation or readiness for this. And so, of course, there's a lot of just complex feelings that come in. But it's also, I find that the experience and the path and what a parent needs to do to really show up for their child is actually really similar to if they find out something else about their child. Like, if you find out your child has a vision need or a muscular skeletal need. And so probably the trajectory and that vision you had for your child's life didn't include that either. Or maybe because of some family predisposition, you had like, well, maybe that could be there, but it probably wasn't really in that imagined space. And so I looked to a lot of the tools and frameworks. And as an educator, I was very aware of some of the tools we use, like parent education, which does actually happen in Dr. Sears book about like, and what if your child has special needs? So I modeled a lot of the work that I do because there was no handbook of how to do this.
So I modeled a lot of what I did and built into my practices from the same supports that we provide families around learning to love and parents and just be really present and a really good advocate for their child if their child had some a medical need or a disability. Some of that does touch on the grief aspect. And so medical providers are given a little bit of coaching and structure around that to anticipate that there can be some grief. And folks make some space for families to have some complicated grief around that. And it never means that the parents don't love their child. That's never the issue. Sometimes parents just don't quite know how to love their child. They're confused. Exactly. And there's so many confusing messages out there. And there's been messages out there that really just end up being really harmful. And we do, sadly, we do sometimes family rejection happens. But even that is... I've worked with parents who that's been what's happened, and they still believe that what they're doing is what's best for their child. And I try to bring in research and stories and narratives to give evidence to here are other ways that this could be done that have been shown to be effective.
And so here's what other parents have tried. So is there anything in this that could work for you or your family? And what I know is that if I can bring a family just one little bit closer to those research based ways of parenting that are associated with the really highest outcomes, even though it's not perfect. I think perfection is a myth anyway. But even though it's on this range and this spectrum, moving them even just a little bit actually has a significant difference in the outcomes that at least, statistically, would be likely for the child and altogether for the family. So being really present with the parent where they're at in their grief process and they're unlearning and then relearning. And so that's been really helpful. And I have seen so many families make incredible, amazing journeys. I could tell it's very emotional. And for me, I think, like I mentioned to you, you didn't know this about me, but back in.
The 80s, I was a nurse at a hospital here. And it happened to be the hospital where, and this is when AIDS was becoming the epidemic. We didn't know a lot about it, but I worked the night shift. And I've always been drawn to just be present with people. It's just something naturally the universe bestowed upon us. I would hold the hands of these young men, 18 years old, 19 years old, who are dying, literally dying. And I would sit at night and hold their hands and just talk and have them share with me and be open. And it was so, I don't know, it changed my life. It totally changed my life because it was... I'm getting emotional now, but that they just so many, they just so many... They knew their whole lives. And that was when my was like a young 20. I'm like, I get this. This is not about people choosing to be... This is who they've been their whole life and then to not have families who can wrap their arms around it. And it was just incredible and really put me on a passionate place with the gay community at the time and really having very little tolerance for any negative talk about that.
But then I had worked with a woman and she was working with me in the corporate and her son came out. And she said to me, you know, Pat? She said, I cried. And so when you're talking about the grief, she said, I cried, but I didn't cry because he was gay. I cried because I knew how hard it was going to be for him in the world.
I hear that all the time from parents. And it gets so confusing because I understand that. It gets so confusing for the children. And so especially our little kids, because they'll see their parent in grief, and that might show up day to day as sadness or anger as negotiation or any of these other parts. And it's not linear, so it's always a mess. And the children personalize it, and they think that they're causing it. Our babies are so special in that way. And they really want their parents to be happy. And so it's just one of the hard things. It's like part of what I do also is working with the children around making space for their parents and their family members and their friends. Because just that broadening that scope that this is a change that you are experiencing and it is absolutely never okay for anyone to hurt you. And so let's talk about some boundaries because if any of these things happen, we need to address that because that's not okay. You should never experience any violence, like verbal or emotional, social or physical. I always put up some pretty clear guardrails around that.
And I want you to understand that everybody else is on a journey here, too. And it's not because they don't love you. And so I just give the kids this constant message, your parents really love you. And so they're trying to figure out how to love you as they're coming to know this really special new thing about you that you've actually known about a little longer. And so you've had some time to do some exploration, and you've known it a little bit more about yourself, and they're a little bit further behind in this journey. And so how to have patience with each other as this transformation occurs. And so I really believe gender transitions happen in families and in communities. And so a lot of the work I do is... So a child is... They're realizing that their gender is different than other folks have recognized it, and they're putting words to it. And so some of the little I work with, they're like, They're four or five. And so they're super little. And so part of that, their struggle is they're trying to even put words to how they are and how the world is telling them to be when they don't know that...
When they know that it doesn't fit right, but they can't even figure out, what do I need to tell the adults so that they'll get this right? So then it's in the whole classroom space, or it's in a whole school community space, and just really making sure that everybody connected, maintaining, of course, privacy and confidentiality. I'm really good around those pieces, but making the whole community context. So I'm always thinking about the siblings, the friends, the soccer team, and all these other important spaces. The Church is so important for most people. And then sometimes making space for some new communities and some new connections because the LGBTQIA2 community, it's actually a whole culture. And we've got flags and holidays and icons and history, hard times and good times. And so the whole family then joins this new culture, which is also similar to what I've learned. I've learned so many things from our disability advocates because there's this language that I was introduced to at one point by this amazing disability advocate around disability as being part of a joinable community. And so I think of the LGBTQIA2 plus, it's a joinable community. And one of the things about it that's unique is there's LGBTQIA2 plus folks in every single family.
And so everybody has that possibility of getting to join this fabulous, colorful, glittery culture. And it is just so fun when families... I love all of our families, but it is really amazing seeing families join in part of this culture with their children.
And I think because of the work that you do and so many like you, it's growing. One of the coaches that is at my coaching group that I'm working with said, it's like that little pebble and just allowing those little ripples to go out and little ripples become big ripples. And so all the work that all of you are doing very passionately, which, gosh, because I work with grief and I have a lot of parents come to me where their children have stepped off this planet because it's been so difficult to live in their own skin, so to speak. And it breaks. You can't even describe when you're sitting across from someone who... And we have to fix this. I'm sorry. This is something that we as a community, as a universe, all of us have to really, in my mind, start opening up and just loving, unconditionally, because we're all human beings. And so to stop this, I don't even know. I get very passionate just because this has been around my whole life. And I've seen the injustices and heard the remarks. And sometimes I didn't speak up because you're in a place and it's like you sit there and then it just sits in your gut.
That is so wrong and so inappropriate that you're judging another person because of what? Their sexuality? What does this have to do with you, number one? Seriously. And I've had so many people in my life that I've seen struggle in their families, in their communities. Like I said, holding the hands of these young guys that were on their deathbeds.
So sad because I wish their families could have been there for them.
Absolutely. And so it's so critical that we continue to raise awareness in any underserved population. But to be doing this work with our kiddos, our little children, like you said, these babies.
They are. They're just babies. And I really believe they come into the universe, into our lives, and they are perfect and whole. So then how do we make those spaces around them where they get to unfold into their just full brilliance? And the more we're able to do that, I believe the more love and joy then comes into our lives. And there really is a lot of love and joy on the other side of that grief. Even families that I have seen who have experienced some of the hardest times because of the cruelties in our world. They've had losses. They've lost family members. They've lost churches. They've lost sometimes entire school communities over their child, like loving their child and making the space for their child to be who they are. But they have moved through all of those losses and that grief and found new community and new ways of being and loving that are so much more expansive that have changed them in ways they never would have imagined possible.
Something that came to me. I have to write it down. Grief propels us forward.
It does. I do believe that. I think that's absolutely wise and right. And one of the things I really want to push back against, especially in our white culture, I was just at a doctor's appointment, and I'm going through my own grief and identity transformation of accepting a disability that's probably been present my whole life. But it's painful. There's physical pain, but there's also... I was at the doctor's office and I'm still grieving this last little loss of like, Well, maybe it's really not this thing. But it's just really becoming more clear it's this thing. And so I just teared up a little bit. And I kept the tears in because I have not found that it is ever helpful to cry at a doctor's office. And it's certainly not just in my own experience with like a male doctor. Already, folks who are marginalized just get dismissed and just don't necessarily get the medical care that they ought to get. But I have found the more I can be stoic and really rational. I don't know. If I play the good patient, I get a little bit better medical care, but it doesn't nourish my whole self.
But I just found I have to go get that other stuff elsewhere and just not to expect it from the medical provider. But as I was driving home, I was reflecting about that. And I couldn't get the tears to come out when I got to the car. And I was in a space where I could have done that. And I was remembering the words of one of my teachers, Ramona Stately, and she's an Indigenous leader. And she had offered me this wisdom that our tears... In her culture, her people understand that tears are healing, crying is healing. And the poison becomes just when you hold them in. And holding in that grief or that pain poisons the self. And so I really just hope that our culture more broadly, can make more space for our emotions, our sadness, and our anger. And even though those things aren't very pretty, they're so necessary and important to the transformation and to the change. I sometimes make comparisons to being a runner. I'm not a great runner, but I do love running, and it's really good for me. And I just have to know that I'm going to have sore muscles and there's just going to be some soreness.
There's going to be some bad days. There's going to be some good days. Not everyone's going to feel great, but just I have to keep it up. I have to keep engaging. I have to keep committed to it because there's a bigger picture that I know is healthy and good.
Yeah. And it's interesting because when you're talking about the tears and with the Indigenous culture, number one is my husband comes from the indigenous culture. And so when our nephew Coleman died, they did the tribal wake and that type of thing. And at the end, we had Wiping of the Tears Ceremony. So it was like, okay, the wiping of the tears was to not stop crying, but to allow the tears to dry up a little bit, to allow the spirit of your loved one to not be tethered and held. So it was really beautiful because they do a four-day wake and it's 24 7. So it's crying. And it doesn't mean that you stop crying. But these tears are so necessary. So they actually named that ceremony, the wipes of the tears, and had a very big ceremony about that because it is so necessary for the cleansing and the healing. Grief is a part of a healing process. It is a component. I tell people I'm a nurse by background, right? If you have been Mangled in a horrible accident, at first there's this shock. And I'm sure this goes for family members and parents when all of a sudden their children are going, I'm not the identity that you think that I have been, or maybe at a mingling, but I'm sharing this with you now, or someone's sharing it with them.
And there's the shock. And if you're in a bad accident, a lot of times you might end up going to the hospital and they're going to put you in a induced coma just to allow your body to regenerate and do what it needs to do. And then you start coming out of that coma, they start bringing you out, and all of a sudden the pain really sets in. It's like, Oh, my God, our nerves are firing. That's when the tears really do need to flow. So I really encourage my clients, it's like, you need to cry. And I said, think of it like a mountain that has all these craggy crevices and the rocks are jutting out. But then a waterfall, year after year, that waterfall and what happens? It just starts smoothing the face of that mountain. It becomes smooth. The colors start showing up. It's more vibrant and it's so peaceful. And that's what I think tears are. We need to allow them out so that it can start softening the ravages and craggy edges of this grief that we all hold at one point or another in our life.
That's a beautiful image. And it doesn't mean that those jagged parts weren't there. Or maybe even there was a beautiful thing that was once there. The new face of it does not in any way deny or negate what had been there before, even as we make space for what is now and what will be in the future.
So we're about nearing the end here. But this is what I like to ask all of my guests when I interview them. If there's anything that you would like to impart upon the listeners here, what is that? What is the one thing that you would like people to leave with?
Absolutely. So I recently was invited. I've read John Lewis's last letter to community a couple of times. And I was recently, it came to me again. And I really do believe the universe has lessons for us. And if you don't get it, the universe is just going to keep putting it in front of you. So I think it was like the fifth time, maybe, I was reading John Lewis's last letter. And he used this word beloved community. And for some reason that day, I was like, beloved community. And I'd read it before and beloved community sounded all nice and all. But for some reason that day, I was like. What's packed into that? Is there something I'm missing here? And so I just opened up another window and search for beloved community. And it brought me to Martin Luther King's writings and his vision of beloved community. And part of that writing, and he struggled with being part of changes and just hardships and grief was this deep, deep faith that the moral arc of the universe bends towards justice. And so to just keep loving, to keep being peaceful, and to just hold on to that faith that where you are today is where you're meant to be. And what is coming ahead that you're going to be ready for. And that bigger arc is leading to justice and to what our whole beloved community needs.
That is so beautiful. Loved community.
Yeah. I mean, especially right now, there are just some days I feel like there's just so many hard things happening. It's just overwhelming. And I feel like I'm just afraid that I'm going to become numb, but I also don't feel like I have enough resources to feel everything for all the hard things that are happening. And so I just keep reminding myself of that faith. I feel like we are in a moment like a crucible or like a Phoenix. And I just have faith that on the other side of this, there's going to be better things.
Me, too. Me, too. I mean, it's just like, this was the awakening. This is the awakening. We are in the midst of it. Yeah, like that Phoenix rising coming out of the fire. We're not there yet.
No, we're not out of this.
Fire yet. There's a lot of things that all our nerves are firing. We just came out of that coma and we're in that burn unit and getting debrided day by day. But it's necessary. Those things are necessary to open up, give it air, give it air. Give it acknowledgement. And the more one by one that we are able to love each other through it.
Exactly.
That's what it is.
So much grace, so much love as we hang in together through this.
Wow, this is beautiful. Thank you so much. So how might people, if they ever wanted to reach out to you, how could they reach out to you?
Yeah, absolutely. I do consulting and I work with a very wide range of folks. I am really a cultural transformation specialist. And so I work with organizations and people, sometimes family, but towards getting to big changes. So I was just working with an amazing camp recently, and I have lots of fun. But yeah, just like my first name.my last name@gmail. Com. And I'm on LinkedIn and stuff, too. I always just love getting questions from people, and I love people.
All right. I will put that in the show notes, too, so that it's there, so that people can easily access because you're a definite resource that we need in our world.
Thank you, Pat. Thanks for doing what you do.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Peggy Green is a health and wellness enthusiast who helps mothers process the loss of a child so they can enjoy time with family and find happiness. After the loss of her second child, she discovered she was helping others in their grief. Peggy started as a grief coach utilizing the tools and resources she gained over a lifetime in overcoming adversity, trauma, and loss. Peggy is a mother of 4 children, 2 in heaven and 2 grown girls. She lives in Highlands Ranch, Colorado.
You can receive a free copy of her book: Life After Child Loss: The Mother’s Survival Guide to Cope and Find Joy by reaching out to her at: Peggy.griefrecovery@gmail.com
Shownotes:
[00:00:15.720] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Hello. I'm so excited because I am here with Peggy Green. And it's interesting because Peggy and I met each other actually through a Facebook group. It was for grieving parents. And she saw what I was doing with my book and sharing some of that. And she actually ended up coming to the author incubator, which is where I wrote my book. And so she just recently wrote a book. So I want to tell you a little bit about Peggy and get to know her a little bit better here. So Peggy Green is a health and wellness enthusiast who helps mothers process the loss of a child so that they can enjoy time with family and find happiness. After the loss of her second child, she discovered she was helping others in their grief, that life purpose. So Peggy started out as a grief coach, utilizing the tools and resources she gained over her lifetime in overcoming adversity, trauma, and loss. She's the mother of four children, two in heaven, and two grown girls. She lives in Highland's Ranch, Colorado, placed near and dear to my heart. I love living in Colorado, so I miss that desperately.
[00:01:24.740] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So welcome, Peggy. I'm so glad to have you and that we get to hang out together today.
[00:01:29.620] - Peggy Green, Guest
Well, thanks, Pat. It's my pleasure and my honor. And there's no coincidences in life and that we're both in that field of helping others with their grief. So thank you. I appreciate it. The time that we've had together and the opportunity to get to know you.
[00:01:47.520] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah. And it's interesting because Peggy, of course, is a grieving mother. That grief never goes away. And she'll talk a little bit about that. And I am the child born to a grieving mother. So we handle the whole spectrum here and have different ways of looking at grief. When a child dies in a family, there's nothing that can make it easy. Nothing that can make it okay. It really is a process, and it's a lifelong process for especially the moms and dads, but also for the siblings, whether in my case, I wasn't even born yet, but it's still had a trickle down effect on us. So Peggi, you recently finished your book, which is super, super exciting. So talk to me, share what the title is and what inspired you to write.
[00:02:41.820] - Peggy Green, Guest
The book. Yeah. Coming out and writing a book. So I'm going to show you a copy of this. I couldn't express more how appropriate that this title is. It's a life after child loss and the mother's survival guide to cope and find joy. The book is dedicated to my son who took his life in December of 2018. And if it weren't for him taking his life, this book would not have been written. And the other pieces of that are, after his passing, I started processing and sharing a lot of my most vulnerable moments, my heartache, my pain, my experience on Facebook. And my post I found were helping other people process their griefs. And I said griefs in a plural because grief can be so many things. It doesn't have to be specific to a child. It can be to a parent, a grandparent, a sibling, a job, a relationship, divorce, or a friendship and even to fur babies. And so I found that the comments people were sharing with me was, This is helping me. Gosh, this applies to my circumstances. It may not have been the child loss. And so it was then that I decided that I needed to share and I needed to make a difference with people.
[00:04:08.720] - Peggy Green, Guest
And so after a year anniversary in January of actually this year, I met with Pat and we talked about how I could write a book that would make a difference. And so she connected me with the organization, the author Incubator, and wrote a book to make a difference and have an impact on people. It's been quite the journey to be able to reach out and share my life experiences and the tools and resources that I've used to be able to survive multiple losses. My first one, my first child loss was 29 years ago. And since then, it's been parents and nieces and nephews, cousins, and my sister as well. So these tools and resources that I found have been what's helped me to be able to stand on two feet, have happiness, have a bright future, and be able to look forward.
[00:05:03.150] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Wow. And I've read your book. It is so powerful and learned so much new things more than we had even talked about. And the devastating grief, layered grief of having not just one but two children unimaginable. And yet you're still sitting here today. You still get a smile on your face. I see that. And I know that for a lot of parents, they're like, I don't know that I can ever smile again. Or I feel like maybe that's unfair to my child who died, that I'm able to keep on living. But you have been able to do that. So can you tell me a little bit about your book and the program that's embedded into the book? Because I know you have a companion program because as we know, books are awesome. They're great. But you also know that how many times did you pick up a book during all of your stages phases of grief, including even now, and just say, Okay, I'm going to go do this thing. It doesn't happen very often when you have good intentions, but you're so overwhelmed by your grief. So you have this companion program. And so talk to me about your program.
[00:06:21.090] - Pat Sheveland, Host
What does that look like? How do you help these parents and other family members who are experiencing a devastating loss such as the death of their child?
[00:06:34.130] - Peggy Green, Guest
Yeah. Pat, child loss is like the elephant in the room that people just don't talk about it. Part of it is because they don't know how. We as parents I mean, it's the chronological order of things is that parents are supposed to die before their children, not after. And so people just don't know how to handle it. And so the program that I have is intended to help those who realize that this has happened. They've been able to accept their loss. And then now that they have accepted it, they're willing to say, Okay, how do I move forward? I don't have the tools and resources. I don't know how to do it. So me, my first loss was 29 years ago, and I didn't have resources to build to help me through it. And being in that same position, I wouldn't want anybody else to not have something that they can help them. Child loss is a journey. It will never end. We don't expect you to get over loss. We help you to move through it. And it's a cycle of moving back and forth. And you may have a good day and you may have a bad day.
[00:07:43.740] - Peggy Green, Guest
But even learning to come to terms with that, that's part of your life now. This is your new norm. So in that program, I walk alongside with you. I link arms with you and am there to help you in moving through your journey and finding the tools and resources that I used that I've gained over the lifetime of all that trauma. So it's eight weeks where we work together intimately. I get to know you, I get to know about your child and really what's breaking your heart and what's triggering you and giving you the tools to be able to work through and get through those tough moments.
[00:08:23.470] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Beautiful. Beautiful. So I know that it is the elephant in the room, right? And then there's people like you and I who we have a comfort level in speaking about it because we know how important it is. It's important to keep our loved ones, their spirit alive and talk about it. And I know that people are uncomfortable because they're afraid to say anything because they don't want to hurt you. And the reality is you're always going to feel this loss. You're always going to have hurt. No one can make it hurt because it's always there because of the deep love in your heart. And I always say that we grieve because we love so deeply. Had we never loved, we would not be grieving. And so there's all this love in your heart. So in view of the fact that it is the elephant in the room, sometimes people may say things that are like, what? Come on. Did you.
[00:09:22.140] - Peggy Green, Guest
Just say that? Did that really spill out of your mouth?
[00:09:25.070] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah. Did that just come out of your mouth? I mean, seriously. So what are the top three things you suggest not to say to a grievance care?
[00:09:34.010] - Peggy Green, Guest
Oh, gosh. They're in a better place. I think that that is one of the worst things. And I think that's more often, especially if a child suffered an illness, that they're in a better place. And no parent thinks that it's better that their child's not with them. And that's really the person who's offering that condolence, I think, is really trying from their heart and want to console you and to help you, but they don't realize that just doesn't make sense to a grieving parent. It's like, Oh, well, I'm happy that my child's gone. They're in a better place. So that's definitely not one thing to say. Again, the loss of a child is so different is that the expectation that comes from the outside world is that we get over it. I think even saying, Oh, you're talking about your child again. That's one of the things that as a parent, we want to make sure that our child is never forgotten and that that in itself, talking about our child is very healing. And you said, people may be afraid to bring it up. I was just on a recent call with a friend and she was just digging deep and asking questions.
[00:10:57.140]
But rather than saying, she asked permission to ask me questions. I was like, yes, absolutely. And appreciate that you asked questions. And no, if I cry, it's because it triggers something. But that's okay by me. And don't feel bad for asking me a question because as you said, that pain is always there and something may trigger it. But it's all part of that process of healing. And then, oh, gosh, there's so many. Third one, I would say, is just what's your next step? Are you going to have more children? Remember that you have other children. You need to live for them. While this is also a very good point, we can't dismiss the fact that we've lost a child. It's in that process of learning to be able to breathe and live at the same time. And it's something that we need to learn. There is in a handbook that we originally got and said, how can you be sad and happy at the same time? But we learned to be able to navigate that.
[00:12:03.030] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Oh, and I love what you said is that the person that was digging a little deeper with you, who was sitting with you asked permission. May I ask you these questions? I think that is so powerful. So it's opening it up and saying, may I ask these questions? And I've had people say, I can't go there right now. I just can't. And I'm like, Okay, got it. That's great. Let's just sit. Let's just sit. Let's breathe. Let's just let me surround you in love, if that's where it is. But most often people are like, Yes, I want to be able to talk about my child. I want to talk about my loved one. I don't want that their memory to ever be erased. And in my circumstance, my parents did bury my brother's memory. And it took my mom 60 years. And so that's the other thing is I see that what you're bringing to the table, Peggi, is you have experience going back 20 plus years ago and then a more recent one at different phases and stages in your life and how important it is to be able to have support on the early side of it and also years down the road.
[00:13:15.690] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I've had people come to me where the death of their child has been 30 years ago and they didn't realize that all the stuff that's going on in their lives, whether it's marriage issues or issues with their children or even issues working, all of that stuff, physical issues, really went back to that time that they didn't have the ability to find healing in their grief because grief to me is a healing process. It never goes away and you're always healing. But it's a healing process. If we don't allow grief, then I coin the phrase we have failed grief. So can you talk to me a little bit? And I don't want to cry. So if I cry, it could say, hey, not go in there. But how did you've gone through this for decades, navigating this. But how did your loss, especially your daughter, so many years ago, what impact did that have on your life and your relationships? Is there anything that you learned from that that you can bring forward so that after Connor's death that you were able to, Oh, this is what I need to do for myself because I learned way back when that doing it another way didn't really work for me?
[00:14:31.060] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Does that make sense?
[00:14:32.370] - Peggy Green, Guest
Yeah. If I understand that the tools from my loss of Courtney and how I've been able to use those things now, if I'm understanding you.
[00:14:42.020] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And were there any... Do you see where back then that maybe your grief hadn't been able to... You weren't as supported or you didn't have the right tools and an understanding where it impacted your relationships or things like that?
[00:15:00.640] - Peggy Green, Guest
Yeah. Well, and I think the best way for me to do that for you, Pat, is to draw a little bit of a comparison in between the two. So Courtney was nine months old and she passed away in a in home daycare accident. And then Connor was 24 and he took us on life. Nine months versus 24 months, I think that the history and the depth of the love and the things that we did had a huge impact on it. Courtney and I never celebrated the one year birthday of her birth, Connor 24. And so I think the length of time for me was quite different. And the support that I received with Courtney was more with family. Both my sister and my mother were very close to me, and both of them made all attempts at drawing me closer to God. And at that time, I fended it off. I wasn't ready for it. And I dug deeply into work. And then I also had three other children, Brittany, Connor, and Hannah. And so with her loss, I knew that I was going to have more children. And with Connor, it's been that finality is that I'm not having more children.
[00:16:20.090] - Peggy Green, Guest
And it's not that my other children replaced Courtney. They always planned on having more. But it was such a short lived life and that I knew I had so much more ahead of me with my life. And it impacted my relationship with her dad, with Courtney's dad. And they say that so many marriages, at least 50 % do not survive the loss of a child because the grief is so different in between a mother and a father. And so I was not able to relate to her dad with that. We were definitely on very different terms. And even within the extended family of his siblings and his parents who didn't talk about her either, my family was able to, but his family was not. So it was even that extended family where we didn't talk about her. And then grief support wasn't really there. And I don't know if I really fully process it. And I think right now as I'm processing, so with Connor is that I'm going back and regrieving. I don't know if we regrieve, but regrieving some of that loss and thinking about it. But now that I've acquired a lifetime of resources, my grief is definitely different with Connor.
[00:17:47.400] - Peggy Green, Guest
I find that I have some different resources. You're able to.
[00:17:51.490] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Lean in to other people and other resources. You mentioned with God and so is faith a big part of that for you?
[00:18:01.930] - Peggy Green, Guest
Absolutely. Faith has been a journey. Like I mentioned, it wasn't a part with Courtney, but along the past 10, 12 years or so that I've been established in a relationship with God. And so that even in the good times that God was there and then God was there in the bad times. So many times people only call upon God in bad times. But I have been wanting and desiring that relationship, and that's been huge. There was a lesson, several lessons that I've learned from my faith. And one of those was because, again, doubling up on the elephant in the room is child loss and then also suicide. The pastor during Conner's memorial service said something that will just stick with me forever because we all have choices and whatever demons that was hunting Conner, God was with him and telling him, no, don't do it. Don't do it, don't do it. Don't take your life. There is more. But he allowed Conner to have his free will. And so it wasn't God that killed Connor. God was there to support him, but God also allows us free will. That's been comforting and knowing that Connor made those choices.
[00:19:20.270] - Peggy Green, Guest
So that was huge. And then even speaking with the Chaplain, and this was one of those circumstances where the Chaplain had the permission for me to speak about things. And he shared with me that, yes, Conner was definitely in a better place only because the demons that were hunting him were no longer on his shoulder. And so that was comforting. But the Chaplain and I had opened up. I had given him that permission to speak freely and to give me some spiritual guidance. That also helps me because we don't understand suicide. We don't understand what drives it. Just that in Conner circumstances, that it was some demons that he felt couldn't get rid of. The only choice that he had at that moment in time was to, in his life, because then the demons would be gone.
[00:20:13.670] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Suicide is talk about an elephant in the room. That's probably the deepest one. And certainly, I've worked with parents who are living the aftermath of that. And there's always those questions because you don't have the answers. You don't have the answers. You can't have the answers because we're not in their heads and whatever that triggering moment, death by despair happened to be. And I know that for myself, I encourage the parents to see how they might be able to reframe that. And that's what you just shared, to reframe that the demons and what was had been sitting on his shoulder are now released and he's free. And it wasn't a punishment. It wasn't a punishment by God. It wasn't that. And that you can hold in your heart. And I think everybody has their own spiritual views. And I think both you and I will never say you have to believe in this, this, or this because everybody has their own way. But I do believe that one of the greatest forms of healing in grief is to have a belief in a power, something that's greater than what's just right here on this Earth. Because if that's all that it is, it's just what's here on this Earth and it's all that suffering that we, many people feel, then there is that despair that's ongoing.
[00:21:40.990]
But you are able to find joy and smile again. You truly are. You are showing us that this can... Folks, you can find healing in your grief. Does it mean the grief is going away? Absolutely not. But you can find healing. You can find support. Now you're a new grandma, right?
[00:22:03.680] - Peggy Green, Guest
Yeah, I'm a new grandma. That's very exciting. So it gives me purpose. I want to circle back around on something that you said in asking the questions. One of the things is to not get trapped in that Canyon of why. Why did this happen? Because that is a question that will never be answered. And I think if we can torture ourselves, we can feel guilty over it. And that's one of the things I made sure that I did not get stuck in is that Canyon of why because it doesn't serve me. And I know that my son wants me to live on. And I'm a big believer in choices in that that was his choice. And I will not allow his choice to dictate my joy and my happiness. It stinks. It's a journey. And overall, his choice can't have control over me.
[00:23:04.380] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah. I've seen that, too, is that it's making a conscious choice. It's making your choice. That conscious choice is I can't allow this to direct the rest of my life in a negative way. I need to have it to bring purpose. So many of us have vision boards. I have one on my desk right here that I look at every time I sit down at my desk, I have my vision board. What's on your vision board?
[00:23:32.050] - Peggy Green, Guest
I've been doing vision boards for quite a few years. Last year, I have in the middle my word of the year. This was my vision board was created after Connor passed away, and it was courage. And it was courage to be able to make it through what I would face and the courage to take one step in front of the other and to do it on a daily basis. The courage to accept it, the courage to cry. So courage. And a matter of fact, a friend gave me this bracelet and the little brass piece here has courage on it. And the only time I take that off is if I'm going to go into a really dressy event because it's pretty casual bracelet. And so I've been wearing it for a year and a half now. And then this year on that vision board, it's broken down into sections. And so I talk about my faith. Remember I talked about my journey and my faith, and it's like, continue to build my faith and deepen that relationship with God, because as with anything, to make improvements, it could be intentional. And you know this, is that intentional in our feeling and our grief.
[00:24:45.740] - Peggy Green, Guest
So intentional in my journey with God. I have on there also creating a memorial for my son. We're in the process of that. I have my book this year and that would come to fruition. I have some physical things to work on my shoulder and that's improving. And so I think about these wealth and abundance and those are just in dollars. Those are in wealth and abundance in my life and love and relationships. Those are important. Even though I would take it for granted that my grandson to become a Moor Moor. Moor Moor is Swedish for grandmother. I feel too young to be a grandmother. So to be called Moor Moor. Let's see what else is on there. Relationships. I am looking for love, and we'll see what happens. And that being on a vision board. And then in the center of that is a line drawing of a house. It's a really simple line drawing. And so my purpose is to put my house in order. And putting that house in order is both literal and figurative. I've lived in this condo for seven years, and there's a few things that have broken here and there.
[00:25:59.570]
Finally, it's finally like, okay, let's fix these things. And then fixing the other things or working on them, just in working on my shoulder and working on my grief and my book and my relationships with God. So that the center of my vision board is my word for the year, which encompasses all the other things that I see and with intention that I am looking for. So I love this format that I've been using because it really helps to guide me and to be able to sit and just dream about those things that are coming about. And the intention in what we put out is what we direct and put our focus on. And so I think you've mentioned that, yeah, I'm smiling, I'm happy. And it's because those are the things that I choose to focus on.
[00:26:51.440] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And I Love the word courage because it takes courage to grieve. It takes courage to be vulnerable. And I appreciate because I know it's not easy to get up and talk about this. And it probably depends upon the day. Today is a good day where you feel like you can speak about this and share about this. And I'm sure there's other days where it's like, I just need to curl up in my blanket and a cup of tea and just take care of myself. And I'm sure all of that is in your book. So, Peggi, how can our listeners get in touch with you?
[00:27:25.440] - Peggy Green, Guest
Well, Pat, the best way to get in touch with me is simply through an email. Right now that is Peggi, E- E-G- G- Y that griefrecovery@gmail. Com. Yes, it is recovering from a loss. So again, that's Peggy.Griefrecovery@gmail.Com. And along with that is, I do have the book, it's available on Amazon. Again, that's Life After Child Loss. And this is Conor and I both love Sunrises and Sunsets. So this is a tribute to the two of us that we are working on this book together and that we are working on helping others. So it's available on Amazon. And then if this is something that interests you, it intrigues you, you want to talk about it more, we can set up a time to just sit down, get to know you and really see what your next steps are and where you are in your process and how I can help you.
[00:28:24.610] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. So I'm just going to put this in a... I'm going to have all of your contact information on all of my platforms where I share the video. Actually, I put this on a YouTube video, so I'll have your contact information in the description of the YouTube video. So this is Peggy Green. So for all of you that are listening, she gets it. She's been there. She's been in it, she's still in it. She understands what this grief process is. And so she has taken her challenges in life and the deaths of her children and especially Connor, who is side by side with her, spiritually helping her to do this work. She's here to help you. To help you walk that really can be a very treacherous path at times. It can be very rocky. It can be very, as I say, like a roller coaster. And so we both do the same work. But like Peggy and I have talked about, there's so many people. There are tens of thousands of children dying in the US every year. Tens of thousands of families are experiencing what our families went through.
[00:29:38.490] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Tens of thousands. And so if you're sitting in this space where you're listening to this and you're thinking, Wow, I just don't even know how she can go on, reach out to her because have a conversation with her and just see if there's a connection there because she gets it. She understands. And what are some of the obstacles that might get in your way is you might be afraid that if you open up this deeply with someone else, you're going to crack into a million pieces like Humpty Dumpty. Well, you know what? Peggy's here to make sure that you don't. She's here, like she said, to take you by the hand and to really hold you up and hold you together as you're processing through this. You might be fearful that my family doesn't understand and they're on a different path. What if I take this journey and we're on this different path? That's okay. People are on different paths when you're grieving. But Peggy can help you with all of that. I just want you to know that Peggy is here for you. This is what she's doing. We go through challenges in life so that we can step into our purpose, our life purpose, our souls purpose.
[00:30:46.650]
And sometimes it's great tragedy that propels us to that. Peggi gets it. She understands. She's a beautiful soul. She will love you through all of this. I really encourage you to get her book, reach out to her. We have all of the information down below. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Peggy. This is a joy. And I'm forever grateful that we have connected and now have this friendship over the last year. And that'll be going forward. I know. Yeah.
[00:31:17.740] - Peggy Green, Guest
And thank you, Pat. I appreciate it. And that we are serving others and working in this field of helping others. It's a unique field because we just never learned how to breathe and how to help others. So I appreciate you as well. You are wonderful in the work that you're doing as well. Thank you. All right.
[00:31:36.910] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Thank you, everybody.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Pat Sheveland interviews Jill Stephenson about her journey of loss. In 2009, Jill Stephenson’s son, U.S. Army Ranger Cpl. Benjamin Stephen Kopp, was killed in action in Afghanistan.
Jill has since turned her tragedy into purpose.
Connect with Jill and her organization here: https://www.iamjillstephenson.com/ HealingFamilyGrief.com
Get my free grief ebook, "How Do I Survive?" 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss here: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/order-free-book
Learn more about Pat Sheveland: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/about-me
Schedule a coaching session: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/book-an-appointment
#howtohelpsomeonewithgrief #griefcoach
Shownotes:
[00:00:13.660] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, hi there. Hi, everybody. I am so excited because I have one of my closest friends. She's like a sister to me. Gill Stevenson here. And we're going to talk about her journey, her journey of grief, her journey of hope, her journey of faith. We're just going to have a really cool conversation. And so I'm really excited to have Gill here. Hi, Gill.
[00:00:37.820] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Good morning, Pat. How are you?
[00:00:39.900] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I'm good. I'm good. So you ready for this?
[00:00:42.740] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
I'm ready. Let's go.
[00:00:44.450] - Pat Sheveland, Host
All right. Well, let's just start with, I'd like you to just start. You've told your story on big stages and small stages and throughout the US. I'd like you to just tell us your story. From the time that you're a child to who you are today, encapsulating your story. And then we can go into a little bit more about Ben's story.
[00:01:16.230] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Okay. My story. I am number two child out of four that my parents had. I have two sisters and a younger brother. So I'm really the middle child. But we grew up very basic middle class family. Mom stayed at home, dad worked two jobs, lived in the suburbs. Not a lot of exciting things that happened. I would just say I lived a very normal childhood. One of the special things that I got to experience, or I should say more than one of them, but a special part of my childhood is that my grandparents had a cabin in Northern Minnesota. They had a lake home and we got to spend a lot of time up there. And that had a huge influence on who I am still today because of how I wanted to spend my free time, how I want to spend my summers. And it put a travel bug in me. It ignited this nomadic spirit in me that over the last six years has really come to life. But I can look back and know that that's where it began was with my grandparents' cabin. I also have a very large family. Both my parents come from families of six, so I have a lot of aunts and uncles and more cousins than I can count.
[00:02:46.780]
More cousins than I can count. So we had family gatherings growing up, birthday parties, holidays. There was always a lot of people around. And so I got used to being around people and sharing space and experiences, including at the cabin. When I was a little girl, we just laid kids wherever there was a free space. You didn't need to have nine bedrooms. You just needed to have nine pillows and blankets.
[00:03:12.960]
So that was part of my upbringing. My parents got divorced when I was 12, fourth grade, I believe it was, or fifth grade. And then just two years later, my youngest brother was hit by a car and killed. His name is JT. He was 11 years old and the youngest, like I said, and the only boy. And he was killed in July and I had turned 15 in May. So just two months almost to the day before that. So when I look back on it, I say I was 15, but I really was barely 15, just barely 15. So I was very young. And that event really shaped my future in so many ways. It shaped how I saw myself, how I saw the world, how I saw other people, and how I interacted with people, including myself. And to this day, we are 40 years out, 39 years out. The effect of losing him still influences how I relate with people today. Four and a half years later, I became a mama myself. So very young. I had Ben at age 20, and I had him as a single mom. I wasn't married, but I brought my brother's memory and love with me on that mama journey from the very beginning.
[00:04:54.000] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And knowing that life can change so quickly and you can lose somebody so quickly without warning made me a better mama. It made me want to be the best mama that I could be to Ben. My Benjamin, you know that when he was a baby, he's Benjamin. It made me love him more. It made me want to spend more time with him. It made me cherish the time with him more. It made me value my time with him more. Did I have my struggles? Of course, I was a young single mom. It wasn't easy. But my brother's life and death definitely encouraged me to be a better mom. And I transferred the love that I couldn't give to my brother to my son. So I continued to raise Ben as a single mom. I had a marriage in the middle, is what I say, from when Ben was 6 to 13. That was That was fine. I will say that was fine. He had a positive influence on Ben, but I was still Ben's greatest influence and Ben's more of his mentor. In the years leading up to that, and even in those years, Ben and I spent a lot of time at the cabin together because there wasn't a male role model in Ben's life.
[00:06:26.390] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
My grandfather became that person to Ben from when he was very little. Ben loved the cabin just as much as I did. We had a lake that had no public access, so it was very private. Very private. So there wasn't a lot of traffic on there, and we just got to enjoy the fishing and the boating. We had a canoe up there and a row boat. So it wasn't these great amenities. We were manually rolling ourselves across the lake and back and taking the canoe out and learning how to fish, which Ben learned from my great grandfather, and how to clean fish. Ben learned at age five. My grandfather gave Ben a filet knife and taught him how to clean fish. And as the mama, that's not something that I would have done. I was willing to teach him how, even though I didn't really know how to do it myself, but I wasn't going to question my grandfather in his wisdom. And he said, if he cuts himself, he'll learn how to hold the knife better. It was a teachable moment. And what that did is it helped build little Benjamin's confidence in his abilities to follow direction and to learn from his great grandfather, who he admired so greatly.
[00:07:50.280] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And so Ben would excitedly catch a fish and then run it back and clean it. And he'd catch a fish and clean the fish, catch and clean. And it became this routine for him. And he would collect a bucket full of these chopped up fish filets that just looked terrible. They were just pan fish, just sunnies and crappies. But he would probably bring them up to the cabin to my grandma for the family to eat for dinner, and she would cook them. She also had a freezer full of filets that grandpa had cleaned over the years. So Ben's filets got mixed in with grandpa's. But that little boy felt so proud that he was feeding the family.
[00:08:31.610] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That's so beautiful.
[00:08:32.720] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Yeah, which helped build his character, and that would follow him for years to come. When Ben turned 13, my grandfather, just a couple of months later, succumbed to cancer. And it was the first death that Ben had experienced. And it absolutely wrecked him. He was so sad that he told me he did not want to talk about it. He said, I can't talk about it. And I let it be at that. I knew how much he was hurting. I knew how much he admired my grandfather because I admired my grandfather so much and I loved him dearly. So I knew what Ben's pain was. And also him being 13, it was easy to not make him talk because 13-year-old boys really just grumble and mumble anyway. It was easy enough. Ben stayed silent for five months. Five months later is when 911 happened. I don't know if it changed the trajectory of Ben's life, but I think it did. Who am I to say the direction that he was going? But from that day forward, there was no question what Ben would do for the rest of his life. And he made a declaration on that day because of what we witnessed watching the television and seeing it in school when he did, that he was going to become an army ranger, find Osama bin Lan and make him pay.
[00:10:23.450] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Are you there?
[00:10:24.450] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah.
[00:10:25.460] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Okay. I just had a screen pop up. I'm sorry. Something came up in front. I was like, oh, did it shut down on me? So Ben made a declaration at that wise age of 13 that he was going to become an army ranger, find Osama bin Lan and make him pay. And so his sadness turned to anger and he wanted revenge. And the revenge was, for the most part, because to him, the terrorist attacks on innocent people in the United States was a mockery of his great grandfather's service to our country. And he was like, That's not going down that way with me. No one's going to get away with that. That's where that came from. And he never looked back on it. That became his true north. That became his true north. So I watched him grow from that point. And we had just moved that school year. So he was in a new school and had made new friends and was doing better in school than he ever had done before, which was a good thing because the years leading up to that were not always easy with. And so to have 911 happen in that one of those first couple of years and to watch him go forth, like he said he was going to, it was something really special for me as a mom, knowing that he had made a statement about something he was going to do in his life and he never turned away from it.
[00:12:05.260]
He never looked back on it. Never looked back on it. So it not only changed his life, but it changed my life as well because I knew what he was going to do. I knew what he was going to do. Ben remained my one and only and ended up getting a divorce right before Ben went to high school. So it was just him and I again going forward.
[00:12:32.620] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Wow. So this kiddo, I mean, had a vision in his early teens. And like you said, his true north, his North Star, everything that he was absolutely driven, which is not common. Young teenage boys, they're not that driven or just know exactly what they want to do. So that's amazing.
[00:12:58.910] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Wow. Yeah, it really is. I often tell people when I speak publicly, I say I'm a little bit older than 13 times three, and then some are four. I still am not sure what I want to be. And Ben just never, ever doubted it. And anybody who knew him from the time of that declaration forward never doubted it either.
[00:13:25.660] - Pat Sheveland, Host
It's unwavering. Unwavering. Okay, so let's talk a little bit. So that got you to be in your this beautiful mama that is a single mom, one and only child. You're teaching him the ropes, going up to the lake, letting him just be all boy and doing whatever he needs to do, allowing your grandfather, his great grandfather, to truly be a mentor to this kiddo. And it had some influence, but you really were the stable influencer of Benjamin throughout his life because you were always there, the constant in his life. So now let's move into this next chapter of what happened.
[00:14:23.990] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
So the next chapter of what happened is that Ben made good on that promise. He never looked away from that drive and that tenacity that he had to become an army ranger. And he signed up for the delayed entry program, his senior year of high school in the fall, which means that he committed to joining the military right after graduation. Ben had a January birthday, and he turned 18 in January of his senior year. So he told me that if I didn't sign the papers for him in the fall, he would sign them himself in January. And that wasn't an issue for me because I knew from when he was so young that he was going to do that. And I supported him in that. I never questioned whether or not I would support him in that. I never thought, oh, to pull the card of he's my only child, he's my only son. I could have maybe said, I don't want you to go because there's risk of me losing you being my only child. That never crossed my mind because I knew the drive and where it came from that intention for him grew from when he was 13 years old.
[00:15:44.200]
And now he was 18 saying, yeah, I'm ready to pull the trigger on this. And so he did. One month after he graduated from high school, he left for Fort Benning to join the army and then go through that infantry training. Only seven months later, he became an army ranger. He fast tracked his way, worked really hard, got through all of the programs that are required in the training to become an army ranger. And he was then assigned to the third Ranger Battalion in Columbus, Georgia. Wow. Yeah, it was very impressive. It was very impressive. It's like, okay, yeah. He wasn't joking when he made that promise to the world that he would go out and save us all or attempt to. So in three years of service, which is what Ben ended up doing, he had three deployments. Army Rangers for every year of service, they deploy one time. It's different than the big army or the other branches where they may go once every few years or they deploy for a year at a time. The Rangers go for a few months at a time and it ends up being within a year.
[00:16:59.940] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
So by the spring of 2009, Ben was on his way to his third deployment, which was to Afghanistan. He had gone to Iraq twice before that, but he knew that going to Afghanistan was going to be different than what he had experienced in Iraq in the previous deployments. And how it was going to be different is that they were going into more heavy combat. They were going after a person who they've been trying to get for a long time, we'll just say that. And it was in an area that hadn't been visited for quite a while. So they were prepared that the natives would be defending their territory quite heavily, and they would be up against some heavy, heavy combat. So he was a little nervous about that. And he expressed that those nerves, and it was actually fears about going. And he was never specific about what he was thinking specifically, just said he knew it was going to be bad. And he shared that with me and just maybe two or three of his very close girlfriends and then with my mom. And when he told my mom that, she offered to take him to Canada.
[00:18:30.580] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And oftentimes people laugh at that reaction and say, it does sound funny, but it wasn't funny because she meant it. And she meant it because her and Ben were very close. Her and Ben were very close. And she had lost her only son. She had lost my brother years before that. And she was now facing an opportunity to save her grandson. And so she made that offer. Ben, of course, refused. It meant something to him that she was willing to do that. But there's no way on God's green Earth that he would have ever taken her up on that. He would never turn his back on his country or his brothers in arms. So off he went to Afghanistan just after Mother's Day in 2009. About halfway through the deployment, I got a call from him. It was on July first. That was the first time that I had spoke to him then. He had sent me a couple of emails, but back in 2009, we didn't get phone calls. We didn't have FaceTime. We weren't allowed to do that. And he sounded pretty far away. Things were as ugly and as bad as he had predicted or it had been predicted to him that they would be.
[00:19:54.980] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
He sounded far away, not distance wise, but emotional wise. There was a lot going on in his head that he couldn't share with me. And he just said that it was just like they thought. It was very hot there. They didn't have showers. They were using just bottles of water obviously to drink and then to shower themselves off as well. And that would be the last time that I spoke to him. And we ended the conversation talking about what he planned to do in the future. He had one year left in his contract and wasn't intending to renew that contract in the army. And only God knows if he would have done that had he come home. But he wanted to go to college. He wanted to move to Florida. He didn't want to come back to Minnesota. So we talked about some of those things that he was dreaming of doing once he got home. And then we ended the conversation like we did any other conversation by saying, I love you. And then nine days later, I got a phone call from his company commander telling me that Ben had been shot by a sniper in a firefight and that he had undergone surgery to repair his leg or to remove the bullet, and that he was currently in recovery at that moment.
[00:21:19.940] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And he then asked me if I had any questions. And the first thing that came to mind when he said that he'd been shot in the leg is I just envisioned his leg being blown off. That was the wounds that we were accustomed to seeing back then that men and women came back for more missing limbs. And he said, no, his leg is fine. His leg is fine. He just hasn't woke up yet. Well, the conversation continued from there to let me know what his progress was as far as recovering. And he didn't recover. He ended up having a cardiac arrest during the recovery time. They were able to revive him, but he was without oxygen for a long enough period of time that it deprived his brain of the oxygen needed to survive. And he was declared or determined to be brain dead five days after he was shot when he arrived at Walter Reed. He did spend a few days at the hospital in Afghanistan, then to Walter Reed in Washington, DC. And then once he got there, the doctors reassessed his condition and determined that he was brain dead. That brain death enabled him to become an organ donor.
[00:22:41.660] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And when the doctors told my mom and I, my mom was there with me at the hospital that they believed he was brain dead, that they asked me immediately if I would consider donating his organs. And I didn't hesitate. I said, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, I will. And the reason that I didn't hesitate is because when my brother died in 1982, the doctors there asked my family if we would donate my brother's organs. And my parents asked my sisters and I if we were agreeable to that. And we all were. And so my brother donated his kidneys and his eyes. And in 1982, that was the very beginning of when organs were harvested to help other people to save lives. And the organ donation world considers my family pioneers in that aspect because it was the very beginning. In fact, in the state of Minnesota, they didn't start keeping records on that until 1986. Wow. Yeah. I've tried to find the records of my brother's donations and even was able to connect with the doctor who was there and were not successful in finding them. So I imagine they're way deep in the anals of the hospital of long, long ago, and who knows what happened to them.
[00:24:05.540] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
But anyway, that was my brother's influence coming back to affect my life with Ben again and making that final decision for him to save lives or encouraging it, I should say. Because Ben was 21, the decision wasn't mine. It was up to Ben. But we had to see if we could locate paperwork where he may have made those wishes known. And we were able to find that paperwork. The Rangers, prior to deployments, fill out a living will or something they call a blue book. And it asks all kinds of questions about what to do in the event of their death, what their final wishes would be, including their funeral, where they want to be laid to rest, what flowers with their pallbearers, music, etc. And one of the questions that was asked is, in the event of your death, do you wish to be an organ donor? And Ben wrote yes. The question that followed that asked, which ones? And Ben wrote, any that are needed.
[00:25:05.380] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Wow. Yeah.
[00:25:06.530] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And so when he was removed from life support, all of his organs, bones, skin, and tissue were donated. He directly saved the lives of four people and enhanced the lives of 55 more with that bone, skin, and tissue. And that does not include the six lives of his brothers in arms that he saved on the battlefield. So he directly saved the lives of 10 people when he died with his brothers in arms and with those major organs.
[00:25:38.730] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Wow. I hear this story. I've heard this story. How long have we known each other? I don't even know how.
[00:25:45.180] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Many years. Coming up on six years.
[00:25:47.440] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Six Years. Six Years. And I have sat, for people who are listening, I have sat and listened to Gill speak it when she's been up on stages in front of lots of groups, one on one. We've talked a lot about this. I've read about Ben's story. Do you want to talk a little bit about that, that a book was written?
[00:26:07.890] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Yeah.
[00:26:08.310] - Pat Sheveland, Host
There actually are a couple of different books because one book wrote about what happened in Afghanistan by one of the people that he saved his life. But then a book was written specifically about Ben. So why don't we tell a little bit about that book?
[00:26:24.500] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Yeah, we can. The book that Pat is referring to is called Heart of a Ranger. And it's about the donation of his heart. By a very miraculous circumstance, Ben's heart was directly donated to an acquaintance of my cousin who was waiting for a heart. And I had created a Caring Bridge website for Ben, letting people know what was going on to keep people informed along the way. And shortly after I posted the message that Ben was determined to be brain dead and would be donating his organs, messages started coming in, of course, from a lot of different people. And the next day, I was to meet with a woman at the... She was a casualty officer in Washington, DC. And she was coming to talk to me about casualty things. But she was late for the meeting. And so I had about an hour of time to kill until she got there. And I spent that time reading those messages. And one of the messages was from my cousin who offered condolences and then stated that because of Ben being an organ donor, friends like her friend Judy, people like her friend, Judy, would get a second chance at life because she was waiting for a heart.
[00:27:47.820] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Now, I didn't tell anybody that I had the ability to select a donor if they were on the donation list. And that is something that the doctors did tell my mom and dad and I that if we knew someone on the list, we could make a direct donation, but we didn't. So nobody knew that. And when I saw that message, to me, it was like holding three 7s on a slot machine. It was like, oh, my gosh, I just hit the jackpot. And so I ran to find my dad and said, dad, Maria, know somebody who needs a heart? And long story short, we got her people in touch with my people. And later that day found out that she was, in fact, a match. Wow. Learning that news to me is when I discovered the feeling of what a miracle is. And the miracle to me occurred in getting that news because I was walking down a sidewalk on my way to dinner. And when Maria called me and told me they were a match, I couldn't move. I was frozen in my tracks. But at the same time, I was so elated because Ben was going to live on in somebody and especially by giving his heart.
[00:29:01.880] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
That was really the special part of the story. So at that moment, while I couldn't walk, my feet felt real heavy. My whole body felt very light. And I thought if I could have just lifted my arms up and I would have flown away. So I believe that a miracle is an ocean of sorrow or sadness or grief and an ocean of joy or happiness, elation at the same time that you're just walking right one foot in each ocean and feeling that. So fast forward, several years later, there was a local news anchor in the Twin Cities who was reading his hometown newspaper online. And that hometown is Winnicka, Illinois. He was reading the story about Judy, Ben's heart recipient, and I meeting. And he had no idea that the story had taken place. Bill Lund, who's the author, had come to Minnesota right before Ben's story hit the news. And because he had survived, Ben wasn't killed in action. He died of his wounds eight days after being shot. But somehow the story just missed him because he was new to the Twin Cities. So he was learning about it for the first time a couple of years later and was just taken aback by it.
[00:30:29.190]
So he reached out to me right away, introduced himself to me and said, I'm from the same town as the heart recipient. I'd love to do a news story. Are you okay with that? Absolutely. So we got together, built it a news story, ended up being nominated for the News Equivalent of the Emmys. And we became friends from that time forward. And he did a couple of other stories about Ben and was really influenced, very strongly influenced by Ben's story. Three years later, his oldest son graduated from the Infantry, the very place that Ben did it, Fort Benning, Georgia, which also is the place that my grandfather went to Infantry school. Bill was very affected by that experience of watching his son graduate from basic training. And he just felt Ben's energy all around him. And turned to his wife at the time and just said, I need to write a book about Ben, and I'm going to reach out to Gill. So he reached out to me, told me the experience that he had with his son's graduation and asked if I would be supportive of him writing a book and told me what his ideas were and how he wanted to write it.
[00:31:45.620] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And I said, absolutely. I had a great feeling about Bill. Like I said, he had become a friend, so he wasn't a stranger reaching out to me in that regard. And three years after that, Heart of a Ranger was released. And that will be four years ago now. So Bill spent three years writing the book and doing just tons of research. And in my opinion, knocked it out of the park. He did a wonderful job writing the book. And a lot of people have read the book and love the story, love reading story about Ben's growing up years. And it wraps in my great grandfather's service to our country, Ben's childhood years, spending with my great-grandfather, the Shenanigans he pulled as a teenager. I left all those details out. You can find them in the book. But based in all of that is Ben's drive to become an army ranger. That was born in him at a very young age, at age 13, but probably sooner because of the influence of my grandfather. But sealed that deal 911. And just his drive and tenacity to go forward with what he claimed he was going to and never looked away from that and subsequently sacrificed his life for that dream.
[00:33:10.860] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
But it's something that he was willing to do. And Bill does a great job of getting all those details and really getting into the emotion of what that was, how poignant that was in Ben's story.
[00:33:23.920] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And I'll put all of that information in the show notes if people want to buy the book, but we'll give them the link on where to buy the book and that type of thing, because it is a beautiful story. And being that for people who are watching that I do a lot of work with grieving parents, Gill and I met really at a spiritual retreat, and she told her story. And it wasn't like we connected immediately at that retreat, but it was like we something connected. And I felt this very closeness with Ben and Gill, and we have this... It's like a sister relationship that we've had for these past, like going on five years. And lots of interesting things have occurred. So talk to me a little bit and tell everybody, what is energy? Tell me about what Benergy is and how that shows up for you and has shown up for you. Maybe some examples over the past almost 12 years.
[00:34:29.180] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Benergy is Ben's energy. It's a combination of those two things. And I think it was born from learning about Judy needing Ben's heart. The circumstance that presented themselves for me to learn that somebody was in need of a heart and not knowing that or knowing that we could designate a recipient and putting those two things together and just letting it go and saying, Okay, God, it's up to you. It's up to you if this is going to happen or not. And the fact that it did and how that made me feel, it was definitely an energy associated with that. But it was born of the statement or the term Ben & G came from young gal that Ben grew up with from middle school on up who was very close to him. And she had moved out to DC shortly before Ben died. And I spent time with her when I would go there. That's where Ben chose to be laid to rest. So he's at Arlington. And I had received Ben's truck back as part of his belongings. And this was December, the same year that Ben died. And Aaron asked me what it was like to drive his truck.
[00:35:48.280] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And I said it had been difficult for me to be comfortable behind the wheel for a while because it was like driving him around. It because Ben wasn't married, he didn't have a girlfriend the time that he died. And so this was his persona. And this was what he loved, the material thing that he loved more than anything else in the world. And I said, I was afraid that something would happen while I was driving it, or I didn't want to have anything happen. But when I was driving it, I said, I just felt this presence while I was there. And it was like this protective presence that was with me. And it was very surreal. And I said, it was almost like I was driving slow motion every time I did because there was just this something around me. And I said it was like this energy that was just with me in the truck. And she looks at me and she said, do you mean energy? I was like, Oh, my gosh, yes, it was this energy. And it stuck. It stuck from that point on. And Benergy has become anything that influences you in a positive way.
[00:37:00.360] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
A sign that you see that you go, oh, okay, yeah, I know that was you. That's my sign to say, yeah, you're going in the right direction or don't go in that direction. Or if you're feeling sad or bad, here I am. I'm right here. And my sign from Ben has been a moth. From day one, when I came home from his funeral in Minnesota, there was this little pure white moth in my house. And that was Ben or me. That was him showing up. And I knew that it was him. And in the last almost 12 years, I've had thousands of experiences with moth. They've landed on my head. They've smacked into my face. They followed me around. They've showed up in places that you wouldn't believe a moth could get into, not just closed off places, but seasonal. What is that moth doing in this theater in Chicago in the middle of January? Where did that come from? Crazy things like that. I see just even like a sun dog on the anniversary of his death or his birthday, the halo, the rainbow circle around the sun. It doesn't happen very often. But on those special days, I'll see that or something in the shape of a heart, a song that comes on.
[00:38:23.530] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Just the other day, I brought my dog to get his nails trimmed at the pet store. And I walk in the door, the grooming station is right around the corner when you come in, and all of a sudden this little moth was flying around and I put my hand out and it just landed on my hand. I can do that. That happens to me often when I show people, just put your finger out and a mop will climb on it. No one's ever done that before. No one has seen that before when I show them. And so those are the energy signs that he's with me and around me always.
[00:39:03.400] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And energy expands beyond mama because there are so many of us that you could write volumes of books on the energy, the Bener G, the Bener G Energy, the Ben Energy. Because we've all those of us who have connected with him, and I did not know Ben, Benjamin in the physical life.
[00:39:30.590] - Pat Sheveland, Host
But I. Know him so well in the spiritual life. It's just like I always said to Gill, he's like this nephew, like I'm the fun aunt. So yeah, but we all have these episodes of energy. But I've been with you. You and I traveled to Florida, and we had some amazing that you just can't make this stuff up moments that there was total protection, total guidance. And we just knew, and we had Ben on the visor with us the whole time.
[00:40:07.450] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So when we think about that, and I'm thinking about so many of my clients, Gill, who have a lot of their one and only. There's something different about when it's a one and only. Some of the lost dreams, all of that. You are going into your 12th year?
[00:40:31.930] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Yeah.
[00:40:33.860] - Pat Sheveland, Host
What would you say is the one thing or two things that really helped you to survive in the beginning and kept you going year after year and finding some purpose out of this great tragedy of your one and only child 12 years ago?
[00:41:05.490] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Yeah. That's an easy question for me. And the two things that come to mind, faith and tribe or faith and community. And my faith has got me through from the very, very beginning. I was never angry about Ben's death because I knew where he was. I knew where he went. I knew where he was going. I was experienced in a grief journey because of my brother. So I already had built this spiritual relationship, if you will, with somebody very close to me. Again, like I said, I was barely a 15 year old girl when my brother died. And when Ben transitioned, it was 27 years, almost to the date. And I tell people that I could have still cried the day before Ben was shot about my brother because the sorrow, the sadness, the loss doesn't ever go away. But what that taught me is that I could survive, that I was capable of surviving, and I saw that in myself and I saw that in my mother. So having faith in knowing that I would survive and knowing where he was, that he was in heaven and that he would wait for me and that he would no longer experience pain, sadness, anything negative, that he was now in eternal love.
[00:42:38.920] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
So that faith has taken me a long, long way. The tribe really equally as important to me. I had people reach out to me from the very beginning who had also experienced losses. Losses of army ranger families coming to reach out and say, My son served at this point in time, and we're grieving family as well. We want to reach out to you. Having people surround me, even locally in Minnesota, other Gold Star families came to Ben's funeral and reached out to me, invited me to events and whatnot. I got thrust into that family, that tribe, that community from the onset. And that has saved me all along because I've never felt alone in my journey. I've never felt alone in my journey. And I still am very close with some of those people that reached out to me almost 12 years ago. And we all are blown away by how fast time goes and that we've come so far in our journeys. But what we are to each other is family because we share that common bond of survival, of not just loss, but survival. And that survival is what contributes to my purpose is being that picture of survival for people that are new to the journey.
[00:44:10.530]
I feel a human obligation to reach back to people that come into my path that are brand new and show them that they can survive and to just take their hand and say, let me walk with you because I've been wearing these shoes a long time and you get used to it. You don't ever get over it. You don't like the shoes. They're not the shoes that you would have ever picked for yourself. But when you wear them for so long, you get used to them. And I see that the purpose also comes in honoring the life, honoring their love, honoring their memories. And if one doesn't do that, then your survival is not going to be as imminent. It's just not because you have to honor that love because it continues the love that you're giving to them spiritually. I'm not able to give Ben physical love. He's not physically here with me, but I'm able to give it physically to other people because of his spirit. And I'm able to give it to other people spiritually in honor of his physical absence. And that is so, so important. And I talked to this is a shared journey with so many, but I just talked to a mom last night whose son died by suicide 14 years ago.
[00:45:38.910] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
But we talked about how many lives that her son has saved because she has become a support for those who struggle like her son did. And they don't end up committing suicide because of what she has shared with them. And that's her son reaching through and being a team with her. But that's seeing the light in it and having purpose for her. And her purpose is to be there for other people who are struggling in honor of her son so that they don't take their own lives. So she's saving lives has become her purpose.
[00:46:18.910] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That's so beautiful. And you and I have had many conversations because we know that the umbilical cord always stays attached. The umbilical cord, that tethering. And so then it is the tethering of your beautiful child who is in heaven and in the light constantly to be able to flow that light to you as the person who really is their voice and the physical beingness to get that message out. So it's almost like you need to have that ethereal body along with the density of our physical. And that's where that beautiful tethering is so important that umbilical and to know that that never gets destroyed. That never, the spiritual part of it never gets destroyed whatsoever. And you and I have had lots of conversations about this. And you wrote in my book, how do I survive steps to living after child loss? We know that there's no linear steps. We know that it could be 5, 10, 15 years later where all of a sudden certain things erupt. We know that because as you said, grief never goes away. But to survive is to have that faith and to have that tribe, having the people surround you. And if there was one thing that you could share with a newly grieving parent whose beautiful child has transitioned from this Earth, what would be your one thing that you would say to them to help them just hang on to that tether.
[00:48:19.380] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Embrace the tribe. Embrace the tribe to allow other people who have walked where you're now walking help you. Let them be there for you because they are going to be your saving grace. Yeah.
[00:48:37.800] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Don't push them. And a lot of times it's easy to push them away. It is. I'm angry. How come you got kids. I've seen that even with clients pushing people away. And it's like, allow people in. I've had clients that said our world gets so small because people don't know how to say the me or what to say or what to do. And our world has just got smaller and smaller. And so I love that that's the one thing is allow yourself to be surrounded with your tribe. And it may not be your family. In fact, I encourage people to not use your family members because they're grieving just as desperately as you are. And you need to have your tribe that's going to lift you up and be there for you because it's all about you in this healing process.
[00:49:33.040] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Amen. And that having walked this journey for most of my adult life since I was 15, it was very difficult for me back then because nobody understood. Nobody understood. I had four living grandparents and a great grandmother when my 11 year old brother was killed. And that makes no sense. And it's still to this day, makes no sense. It's so out of order. But I know that out of order is just the way of the world. That's the way it is. But I was all alone in that until I was able to filter my love to my own son and connect with people as I aged that had a loss at growing up. And now that helps me to connect with people also because it's not just the loss of my son that I could talk about. I'm like, no, I've been walking this great journey for 38 years, almost 40 years. A long, long time. And I've had subsequent losses since then, too. I've lost a nephew and another brother since then. So I know what that's all about. And just so important for people to understand that you might not just feel like going anywhere because you feel too heavy.
[00:50:55.640]
You don't want to face people because your mood isn't well. And that's okay. It's okay to not be okay. And to hear that from someone who's walked in your shoes means a lot.
[00:51:10.710] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely. So, Gill, we're nearing the end, but just please tell us, what is it that you give the world now? What is your gift that energy flows into you all the time? And you now have a purpose, like you said, it's reaching out to other people. But talk a little bit about what do you do formally? How do you get out there and how can people reach you if they would like to connect with you and maybe have you come and talk? Formally, what I.
[00:51:47.640] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Do is public speaking, or I might call it motivational speaking. And what is my message? My basic message is I think it's twofold. It's hope and it's survival. To be hopeful is okay, that you can have hope and basking that hope because it will lead you to survival. And that's something that I can be the face of survival. I've survived great loss, including a house fire where I lost everything. Lightning strike, totally unforeseen, survival val. That survival is imminent no matter what you face. That adversity visits us in many different ways. It's not just about the loss of a loved one. It can be about a tragic thing like a fire, something like that. It can be divorce. It can be illness, it can be an accident, it can be financial loss, any number of things. Adversity has many, many faces. And I don't speak about just my experiences, but how the losses can pertain to so many different avenues in our lives. I have spoke across the country. As Pat mentioned earlier, I've spoke to very small groups. I've spoke to very large groups. I've spoke a lot to the military community, to educational communities as high schools, middle schools, colleges.
[00:53:19.090] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
I've spoke to church groups. I've spoke to professional and corporate groups, hospital groups, because Ben's story is all about the medical issues that come up with brain death and organ donation and the light that comes from that. I think another message that I bring is being able to find the light in the dark, to focus on the light. And that is what is going to keep you reaching for that survival and keep you holding on to hope. Because in any story, no matter how tragic it is, a light comes, a light absolutely comes. And that's what I want to teach people. That's what I that's what I strive to teach people. That's the message that I want people to take away from my speech. I don't stand on stage and cry. I don't stand up there and have to compose myself. I want to stand up there and be the face of survival. I want to stand up and be the face of hope because that's how I honor my brother and my son and my brothers, my grandfathers. That's how I honor their memories. That's how I honor their love and their life is by not giving up by keep putting those feet one in front of the other and surviving.
[00:54:36.310] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
And I.
[00:54:37.260] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Have this quote here. A while, maybe a month ago, I was listening to a very, very old interview that Oprah had with Maryanne Williamson. And I was listening and it was talking about the tragedy of when someone dies. And how do you explain it? Because the one question that comes in is, why did this happen? Why did this happen? And Maryanne said something that I thought was so powerful that I actually wrote it on a little sticky note. And it's like, she said, I don't know if the question is really so much, why did this happen? But the real question is, what do I do with it now that it did? That's exactly what Gill is sharing with all of us is we make choices. We can choose to allow this to crush us forever. And the adversities, the deep tragedies in our lives, it could crush us and just, unfortunately, leave a life that doesn't allow a legacy. Or you can say, okay, this happened, I am going to go out there and I am going to have a purpose of helping other people. I'm going to be a light for someone else. Because we know that energy begets energy.
[00:56:00.070] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Light begets light. So as you are a light for someone else, Gill, their light in turn turns up and lights and shines upon you. And so it's just this synergy and this beautiful infinity of growing this light amongst all of us. And it's just a beautiful thing. So real quick, how can people get a hold of you? What's the best way for them to get a hold of you if they want to connect with you? They can connect connect.
[00:56:29.260] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
To me through my website, which is IamJillStephenson. Com. So it's IAMJill LSTEPHENSON. Com. IamJillStephenson.Com. And I will put that in.
[00:56:45.690] - Pat Sheveland, Host
The show notes so it'll be here so that people can have that link also. Yes. And the.
[00:56:51.180] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Book can also be ordered from my website.
[00:56:53.410] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Perfect.
[00:56:54.260]
So it makes it easy then. Easy peasy. We'll just get you to the website and make sure that that's all in the show notes for everybody. And thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here. We've talked about this for a long time and doing an interview and it was like, Wow, what happened? Time does go by very fast. And so it's so timely here. Gill and I were just talking earlier this week and it's like, Wow, we just really need to get this interview. I have several clients that are moms, one and only. I have other clients that are still struggling a few years after the death of their beloved child, especially children. But this is all grief. We have tragedies that happen in many different forms, as Gill had said. And so this is what she brings to the table is to bring that light, to bring that hope, to know that you can continue to survive and actually thrive over time. And that we're always surrounded by this beautiful energy of our loved ones.
[00:58:04.190] - Jill Stephenson, Guest
Yes, we are.
[00:58:05.290] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So thank you so much, my darling. This has been a wonderful interview. And thank you, everybody, for listening. We appreciate it. Thanks, guys.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Geneva Livingstone is a transformational grief coach who prefers to be called "Coach G". She considers herself a different type of healing coach who specializes in helping women in leadership overcome the constant trigger alarms after having experienced the excruciating pain of deep loss. It is her hope to help you learn to trust yourself with your heart and new emotions so that you can not move on but instead lean in and LOVE FORWARD.
If you are interested in learning more about the Confident Grief Coach Certification Program, please go to www.healingfamilygrief.com
Download my Amazon Best Selling books "How Do I Survive: 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss", "Living Life in the Middle: The Caregiver's Guide to Healing, Hope and Harmony Through Multigenerational Living, and "The Confident Grief Coach: A Guide For Helping Clients Process Loss" for FREE at: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Shownotes:
[00:00:00.000] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Hi. There. I am so excited to have someone who I love so dearly be a part of our interview today. Geneva Livingstone is this beautiful, heart centered... I tell her I just want to sit in her lap and be coached all the time. She just has this just lovely face that she holds. She likes to be called Coach G. So that's generally how I'll call her. She is a graduate of the Confident Grief Coach school. And how she describes herself is that she's a different type of healing coach specializing in helping women in leadership. That is really cool. Speaks to me tenfold or more. But helping them overcome the constant trigger alarms that have having experienced the excruciating pain of deep loss. She knows about deep loss. We know that there are so many people out there in the workforce and women in leadership that sometimes it feels like they might have to tamp it down a little bit. So I'm really anxious to hear from Coach G what that looks like in some of the work that she's done. And her hope is for everyone who's listening and who works with her is to learn to trust themselves with their own hearts and new emotions so that they cannot just move on, but instead lean into it and love forward.
[00:01:42.890] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Love forward. Isn't that beautiful? I'm always loving forward. Let's talk. Let's chat. You'll see on the screen, she calls herself your Fairy Godmother of Hope, Coach G. Let's just start off from the very beginning. You and I met, was it in early 21?
[00:02:07.980] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Yes.
[00:02:08.930] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Okay. Let's chat a little bit about how we got connected and how you came to the school.
[00:02:15.640] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Awesome. What happened was I had just finished a master's grief certification, but I wanted a program. Like things always happen for me, magically, you appeared in my world talking about your confident grief program. I was like, Finally, because having something solid step by step instead of people just getting on the phone and just talking and talking and talking like that talk therapy that you and I are not so excited about. It has a place, but we want to see people go through a process, learn how to navigate their emotions, learn how to live in their now. And that's exactly what the Confident Grief program brought for me.
[00:03:05.290] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That's so wonderful. I remember you came on a... I think I was doing a little webinar or some little thing, and you were on there along with another person who's been with us since the very beginning too. To date, we've had 20 people into the program, and it's still a fairly new program. But you were one of our groundbreaking members at the very beginning and have really helped me to shape the school and really lean into what is it that coaches can really use for support to go out into this terrain of grief. So I thank you. I'm always honored to be with you and have you a part of my tribe.
[00:03:50.350] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Exactly. I love it.
[00:03:52.120] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yes. You have done some amazing stuff. We're now in early 23. Not even two years. We haven't really been gathered together for two years. I mean, a full two years. Talk a little bit about you, whatever part of your story you want to share, and really what you have been up to. Then I'll ask you some questions as we go through that.
[00:04:21.770] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
For sure. A little bit about myself. I suffered three losses in a period of 22 months. Every single one of them was 11 months apart, not by date, but very close. I first lost my cousin, then I lost my son, and then I lost another cousin. In my family, we had three mothers having to bury their young. I was like, What is the word for this? And the word is called Voloma. Whether you're a man or a woman, it's a Voloma. And that means against the natural order of things.
[00:04:58.620] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Okay.
[00:04:59.120] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Yeah. So I'm like, I'm a Voloma. Okay. Because you know, you're a widow, a widower, so orphan. But what is it for a parent who's lost a child? So that was very comforting for me to find that out. Interestingly enough, I had not wanted to touch grief at all because I thought, I'm not selling my son. I am not selling the memory of him. I am not going to constantly talk about it. Forget it. But when I lost my cousin, Death and I, we were fighting. We were fighting. I'm like.
[00:05:31.410]
E-nough. Enough. I threw my hands up in the air and I'm like, All right, you and I are going to battle. The only way for me to battle death, really Geneva, but come on, the only way for me to battle it was to really bring awareness to help people navigate through it. That's when I went down the rabbit hole. I didn't want to just listen to all the grief platitudes. I didn't want to just hear grief from a religious perspective. I wanted to walk through it, like the grit of grief and the recovery and the healing and the freedom, which was the process.
[00:06:19.500] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Our relationship has been watching you in this transformational process because there's been ups and downs and swirls arounds and all of that type of thing and trying to, okay, who am I serving? What is it that I'm really doing here? And you just have always brought such energy to our group in terms of, I am so passionate. And you are one of those people that when you get your teeth into something, it's like, Okay, I'm not going to let it go. So over these last couple of years, you've shifted a little bit like, Who are the people that are coming to you? Because that's what we find is our energy, who we be, and the energy that we have almost is like a beacon of light for certain people. It's like we're that lighthouse in that stormy sea. Just share a little bit about who are some of the people that come to be with Coach G and just be enveloped in your beautiful love and comfort.
[00:07:31.710] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Thank you. Very interestingly, I've had retirees. I've had stay at home entrepreneurs, a stay at home mom, a mom who lost her husband and her son at the same time through a car accident. I've had sisters who've lost brothers. It has been a smorgasbord of people who have come, which I think was so the cause of the pivoting because they were looking for something. Immediately off the beginning, you think, Okay, it's because of grief. But the more I'm in this, what I'm finding is happening is that they're looking for emotional support. That has changed everything because through the layers of grief, as we understand it, you might not have even lost somebody, like two of my clients, well, parents, but that's not why they came to me. It was they lost pieces of themselves. They had that reoccurring grief story in their mind over and over and over again. I think because they know a little bit about me losing my own child at the age of 25, they're like, Okay, maybe you can help me.
[00:08:44.460] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah, you get it. You get it. You understand grief. But we know that everybody's grief is totally separate and different. We've read and talked about the grieving brain, which I've now incorporated into the school, the certification program. Our grief is as unique as our fingerprints. And the one thing I love about you is you're always finding that what's that unique piece for that person, that client? Because we know grief is... We know that grief is there. It could be the death of someone. But like you said, the death of pieces of ourselves. I just had an individual who reached out to me last week. He's an old co worker of mine and we haven't seen each other, gosh, I think I was eight years now since I retired from that company. And he reached out to me in the blue because he saw my newsletter or whatever. And he said, Pat, I had a stroke in November.
[00:09:49.950]
And so we got on a call because he wants to use this for good. And he's recovering, he's doing well. But he said, I didn't want to live. I didn't want to be a burden to my wife and my children. And now I have a whole different thinking process around that, and I want to make a difference for people and show them that there is life after that trauma to the body, the psyche, the spiritual work. Let's talk about those different types of grief because you articulate this so well, all these different forms of grief. I would just love to hear how you see it and what you see.
[00:10:32.650] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
For sure. The one thing I really stand for is that grief is not just about the loss of a loved one, but it's the loss of anything that you deem important, anything that's important to you. Because you know in our space, people love to compare their grief stories. Who has it worse? The person who lost a pet that they've had for 17 years. Feels.The pain of that loss. Just because it's a pet does not mean that it doesn't warrant support. That person doesn't warrant being listened to and going through that entire grief process. I really, really stand for everybody has the right in their grief to be heard because nobody wants to listen. Six months, we're done. You're not over it yet. Yeah. What? She's like, Excuse me?
[00:11:23.360] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah. Two years later and you're still talking about this and still we're uncomfortable. We don't want to have to have that conversation. When you first came and we connected, you had something and you called it the death etiquette. Yes. Talk to us a little bit about death etiquette.
[00:11:45.840] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Death etiquette came from sitting at my girlfriend's bar in her kitchen. I had lost my son, and she's a very close friend to me, and she had lost her dad, her brother, and just recently her mom, who I knew and loved and adored. We were just talking about the things that people say to us that they're clueless with what they're saying. She's like, You do a video. I was like, You do a video. She's like, You do. I was like, Okay, the day after my son's birthday, the first one I had to be without him, I couldn't do it on the day of, so I gave tips the next day. I was broken on his birthday. I was like, Mom, what's going on? She said, It's because you gave birth to him. I went through just talking about the importance of asking the griever what they want. I know sometimes you'll see posts that say, Don't ask us what we want. We don't know what we want. But that's not true for everybody. Instead of treating us like a child where you're making decisions for us, ask us what we need. Do I need space?
[00:13:01.260]
Do I need you just to sit with me and not talk? Do I need you to make me laugh? It's the whole part of the building of the tribe that we have in our curriculum. That's why I loved it when you had that in there. I was like, Yes. Because nobody teaches death etiquette. Nobody teaches us how to really, truly relate. What you get is a lot of grief platitudes, and that's not good enough. We have to do better, and we can only do better if somebody has a big mouth and says stuff.
[00:13:36.970] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah. Okay, me too. Together, we have a mission. We're here to... It's a mission of that death is not a dirty word, that this is a part of life, that there is certain things that are really powerful, certain ways of being that are very powerful that you can be for someone who is grieving a deep grief, a deep loss. And then there are other things like, Don't do that. Please don't say that. Don't minimize it. Don't tell them, Oh, you're strong. You got this. Oh, yes. He's in a better place. Maybe the griever believes that, but it's like, Don't flip and tell me that. No, don't. You don't know. You're not in my shoes. And that's the thing that I think is just so important is there is no comparison. Our grief is just so unique to ourselves. But there are some commonalities, and that's how the breathe program, Coaching Model for Grief, came to be is because I saw commonalities among people who I would call successful grievers versus failed grievers. They knew they could take it and there was these commonalities of things that worked for them. And so that's all we do, right? Is we share here some tools, here are some thoughts, but we're coaching. And talk to me a little bit about, and our audience, about how you see... What is coaching for you?
[00:15:15.810] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
It is being your cheerleader, whether I am on the sidelines cheering you through a successful day or moment that you had, or whether I am on the ground with you. It's me showing up for you how you need, but with the concept that we will always move one inch further today than yesterday.
[00:15:36.760] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah, little forward movement. It doesn't have to be big. It could be an inch, it could be a millimeter, it could be whatever that is, one little bit at a time, which is so incredibly awesome. You talked about tribe. So for you, when you look over, has your tribe changed from the time that your son passed to today? Has anything shifted with who's in your tribe or how they show up, the support that you need?
[00:16:10.010] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
No. I think for me, because after I went through that moment of making that decision to get into coaching, you guys became part of my tribe. But my family has always been there. My friends have always been there. I've had a friend since grade one. I don't know how many people get to say that, but I've had a friend since grade one. I was in the hospital and she literally just showed up with a coffee and looked at me. I had assistant managers that worked with me. I was their boss. They showed up for me. Everybody came out of the would work to support, and they lasted way beyond six months. I think part of it is because for me, my love language is quality time. It's not quantity time. You and I could get together maybe once a year, but when we're together, it's like we've never left each other. I don't rate our friendship on how often you reach out to me. It's when you are available to be than you are, and that's how my people are. I think that I'm different in that dynamic where other people require the constant attention. I just don't. It's not my personality.
[00:17:24.330] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Right. Well, we talk about that, the many phases of grief and how we cope. I'm one that I could coon in. I don't want people bothering me. I just want to reach out. If I need to reach out, I will reach out, but I need to be in my own space. And there's just a couple of people that I feel comfortable coming in and being a part of that. And I think a lot of times, but our communities are so large, they all want to help. So for those that maybe are not in that close inner circle, right? The two to three people that are right there. What advice would you give a friend, maybe a family member that's not an immediate family member who is just as deeply grieving as you may be because it's a significant loss for them. But what would you give, just some helpful tools as far as how to be a support to someone and finding out how best to support them?
[00:18:33.090] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
It comes in a few different ways. So we'll ring it with your intimate circle first, which you look at your best friend whose heart is probably going to be just as broken as yours. However, your best friend is not the one who got the direct hit. Your best friend could be the person that shields your calls because you will have everybody calling you out of the woodwork asking you what happened, asking you for funeral arrangements and doing all of that. If you are a best friend of somebody who has just lost somebody, like they're at the hospital, they're at that time when they know they're coming to a close, it would be really great for you to sit down with your person and say, Can I take the calls off of your plate? Can I be the contact person so you don't have to constantly reiterate that story a hundred times? I can do that for you. It offers such a beautiful protection so that that person and their family can grieve in peace on the funeral day or the life celebration. You're going to see everybody. You probably don't want to have those calls if you're that type of person.
[00:19:42.600] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
If you are a manager and it's been somebody on your team, yes, you send the flowers and stuff, but you ask the person, do you want us to call you and listen to what your person is saying to you? Because for my mom, she was like, I don't want phone calls. I will give one person all of the information. Again, because everybody wants to know what happened, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you relive it. I think that that's the thing nobody understands is that every time we tell the story, we're back there and that's not where we want to be. We want to just be in the moment of what we're feeling. Having that conversation with your boss or your manager sets the stage for your team, as well as when you're coming back into work, you need to have a conversation with your boss or your manager needs to pull you aside and say, Hey, listen, I know this is going to be a bit hard for you. Let's set up a word that you need. If you look at me and say, butter, cream, coffee, I know you need to leave the floor for a moment.
[00:20:46.120] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Excellent. Stay and slept, right?
[00:20:47.730] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Exactly. Whether it's sit in my office in a chair and cry for a moment, get yourself together and go back out. It's hard, but we have to go back to work. Sometimes some of us never return and we lose everything because of that. But if that's not your way, if it wasn't mine, the best thing is to have that communication so that the team understands because they want to support. You also have to show up at work and do your job to be paid. We have to show our face to the company. They can't keep us and we're not doing our job. That's the fact. It's a hard reality. But if we have the communication happening, it allows for a moment you feel supported and nobody's like, Oh, she's left again. She's left again. I think depending on your circles is how that support shows up for you. But I think the employee-employer support is really, really important because we're off for what, three days and we're back.
[00:21:49.480] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah, we've talked about that. It's like, Oh, my gosh. Even if you've been preparing for the loss and that anticipatory grief, you know that this is going to happen. I'll use my mom for an example. I mean, for years, she graduated hospice twice and was going back on for the third time when she finally died that night. I just lost where I was going with that. That's me. Geneva knows me. This is what happens. Anyway, we'll get back to that. It was something about the...
[00:22:23.680] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
It was about having to go back to work.
[00:22:26.270] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Having to go back to work. How do you do that? We just can't. Three days, we're in... Oh, that's why I was going is in that acute phase, the brain is not working. The brain is not working. We're doing the best we can, but you're in a fog and everyone will tell you that. It's like I just felt like I was just sludging along. I don't know how that first year even went by. I don't even remember anything that happened. It was almost like driving your car and you get on a familiar road and then all of a sudden you got to your destination, you have no clue how you got there. That can be that acute phase of that grief journey. And so really having that support in the workplace. And I think it's probably getting better, but I don't know. I mean, three days of bereavement, I mean, seriously. And then employers will say, well, we'll give them more if they need a couple of weeks to just... A couple of weeks? My son just died. A couple of weeks? You know?
[00:23:31.020] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Honestly, I was spoiled. I was spoiled. My company, I've had a 25, 23 year relationship with them and they were amazing. The VP of my company was on the phone while my son was coming off life support. My supervisor was the first person I called after I left the hospital. She's like, You take your time. You do what you have to do. I mean, if it was vacation, mine happened just before COVID, so Yay for me. But they were amazing. The phone calls, the text messages, checking in, How are you doing? They were phenomenal. But I know that not everybody has that. I'm the exception to the rule. As coaches, that's what we get to be for others. That's what I get to be for my client is that support for the person that has nobody and is walking through the fog with their eyes closed because that's how you feel.
[00:24:32.060] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And helping prepare. Helping to think, Okay, so you're going back to work next week. What are some of the things that might be for that safety net for you? And who is that person in your tribe, your inner circle at work that can... And how do you bring forth what are the things that you need? Where else can they go? And I want to go back to the sitting at the hospital. We talked about this. Geneva and I were part of a math through program that we gather every week because this is how we support one another. It's brief coaching with other pre coaches. We use acronyms for this reason why some of these acronyms are in. One of them is faith. Even the people who are working in the hospital may not be able to provide. For me, faith has many different faces and colors and shapes and sizes. I don't want to say barrier because it's really not a barrier, but really that cushioning so that you can be wrapped in cotton batting and feel safe without having to answer those questions. And then you talked about answering the questions and telling the story over and over.
[00:25:38.300]
And I shared this with you. But when my brother died a little over a year ago, everybody wanted to know, how did that happen? What happened? What killed him? Oh, my gosh. And my family and I never realized how much that is a question that people will ask. I've done it myself. But the bottom line is I didn't have the answers. My other brother, we didn't have the full answers, and we weren't quite sure how we were. We didn't know. But it was an uncomfortable... People want to go right to the detail and I don't know what that is. I think it's just human nature and they're feeling supportive and they're shocked and all of that thing when it happens unexpectedly. But that was one of the things that I walked away with. My one brother and I said, Well, we'll never... Even if we catch ourselves, we'll never know what happened when you didn't expect it? I mean, when you expect it, if someone has cancer or some other chronic illness, that type of thing. Or a car accident where it's got displayed all over the papers and the news, that type of thing. But a lot of times I've worked with so many families where their loved one died by suicide, their loved one died by fentanyl poisoning, overdoses, different dependencies like that.
[00:27:03.270]
And it's like, they're not ready to just get the bullhorn out and say, yeah, this is what happened, because they're trying to grapple. When we talk about those many phases of grief, they're trying to grapple with how did this even happen? I don't even understand. I don't understand. And I certainly don't want to go out there because how are people going to look at me that my child did this or my spouse did this? Are they going to think I created this? There's just so many thoughts that go on. I appreciate that you brought in that really finding that one person you said, Oh, how many people have someone from first grade? I have one. Her name is Bethy, and she shows up for all of us. She shows up for our tribe from that age group. But she's always the first one that she'll get on the phone and call. What can I do for you? When my brother died, she was the one making sure that she was helping to coordinate getting food for the gathering that we're having and things like that always. I feel comfortable with her. I trust her implicitly to be that that spokesperson and that buffer.
[00:28:09.260] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
They're so, so important. So important. But again, just ask us. Just. Ask. That's the biggest thing. And if somebody says to you, I don't know, then I think that it's important for you to let them know what you can offer because if they want things that you cannot do and you try to commit and you let that person down, they're grieving that, too. It makes them feel even more alone against the people that are supposed to be there to help and support. So if they say, Hey, listen, I don't know, then you're like, you're a mom who's lost her husband and you've got small children and somebody steps in and says, Hey, listen, I'll take the kids to school Monday and Tuesday for you, or I'll pick them up from school, or I'll do dinner with them, you take some time, or Saturday I'll take the kids. You're making an offer, then she could say yes or no. The other thing, too, is if we say no, please accept it.
[00:29:10.610] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah, it's okay.
[00:29:12.730] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
It's not personal. It's not personal. But everybody feels offended. And they're really.
[00:29:20.300] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Then as the griever, you're trying to make other people feel okay when it's like, No, this doesn't... What about me? I'm the one in the middle of it. I think that's such a key thing is when someone says no, thank you, accept it, and know that that's not the end of going forward, then you wait for the next opening. Maybe you check in in a couple of weeks. Okay, you've gone through all of that. So can I start picking up the kid? Can I help you? Would it be okay for me to take the kids and bring them to school for you? Would that be helpful for you? They said no. Then it's like, Is there anything that you think that might be helpful for you right now? Because I'm there to do it. Then as you go through the grief journey, you have different thoughts and all of a sudden things start showing up. And the confusion, I could really use someone to just look through this paperwork, just look through the paperwork for me. I don't understand it thing. So the other thing I wanted to talk to you about is because you are a master, a queen, the Fairy Godmother. You use tools. I mean, you use some assessment tools. You love it. That's the one thing I remember. When you and I had just our first call before you came into the program, you're like, Oh, you do assessments. Yay. Okay, I'm in. I'm in. Because you love to do assessments. So talk, share a little bit with us. What are some of the tools that you use and how have they been helping your clients?
[00:30:50.260] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Oh, my goodness. Okay. I love the combination of three weeks personal development. The course that we did in Positive Intelligence, I use the assessment for them there. We know what saboteurs are talking, but what I really love is the EQ assessment, which lets me know what percentage of time they're in positive or negative thought process because that will show me how I need to coach them, whether I can be more of a, okay, let's go. Let's go. Cheerleader rock star. Or if I have to slow it down for them and let's just take a breath and just get them to breathe. Then we have the assessment that I love. I don't get them to do it in the graph, but I just ask them for their numbers. With the one woman who was a retiree, she had some that were in the negatives. When we hit four weeks, she was just hitting positive. By the time we were done in our eight weeks, all of her markers were positive. The reason I love assessments is because I feel people need to have a baseline so that they know where they're headed from where they were.
[00:32:08.930] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
When I can say to you, Oh, my goodness, in intimacy, you are now not negative 10, but you're at zero, you're at level. That's incredible because they're just like, But I'm just at zero. And it's like, but you were negative 10. Right. And they're like, oh, was I that bad?
[00:32:31.230] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And that's what I love about it, too, is that it's something that we can celebrate because as coaches, we're all about helping our clients feel empowered to live their lives and not be dependent on us or other people, but that they can walk with their heads held high like, I got this. I got it for today. I got it for this hour. I've got it for the next five minutes. And showing those assessments over a period of time. And you brought in the PQ. We did it as a group. We have a little study group, some of us did, and went through that. Now with the breathe coaching model for grief, I don't have that in there. We have some other assessment tools that are given to you. But that's the beauty of any model that you work with. You have to make it your own. It's got to be you. It's got to be Coach G, or it's got to be Pat. It's not about we just follow cookie cutter process because bereavement, death, all of that is... The stages of grief are... No, you couldn't even name them all, right? And certainly not in a linear fashion.
[00:33:43.520]
We throw out that the five stages of grief was not about people who have experienced the death of a loved one. It was actually talking to the people who are dying, the dying person and saying, Okay, now it's... Well, that's a whole different thing. Yeah, you're going to do bargaining. You're going to do all that. But when you are really walking the grief journey after a significant loss, because I don't always want to say that's the depth of a significant loss. It could be a divorce. It could be your beloved pet who is just like your child. Certainly, it's any member of the family from that perspective. I've had a friend that her house blew up. Big grief there. All of her tangible memories. Boom. In one fell swoop. Lost a job. I remember when I was with my company for 25 years, and we got purchased. And so it was time for me to exit. I knew that it was a perfect time for me to exit. It was beautiful. But even when the actual day came where I didn't go into the office anymore, I went boom into deep grief. I really had to use the tools that we all talk about to help me maneuver, like, okay, so what does this look like?
[00:35:06.510]
What does this look like? Because you go through like, Oh, I'm not wanted, or I'm not smart enough. You do all these depending on the face of grief and what we're dealing with. That's just so beautiful. Can we just touch on a little bit about human design? I don't talk a lot about it because I'm not an expert at it, but you just grabbed a hold of human design and just became a sensational student and can articulate so well what's going on. So just do you want to give just a little what this is all about?
[00:35:44.290] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
I love knowing what a person, what their design is, because, again, it helps me to coach them. And it's funny because my business clients, my stay at home business people, they're manifesters. And we were talking how manifesters usually don't call out for help. But we knowing that they're manifesters and how their minds work, 150 miles an hour, the ideas are coming, then the overwhelm can come, then all of a sudden the avoider saboteur shows up, and then they don't want to do anything because there's just too much going on. But it's all in their head because they've kept it inside. So at least knowing that when I have my client talk to me about how overwhelmed they're feeling, it's like, did you write it all out? It's like, that's all I had to do it's like, yeah.
[00:36:33.080]
But she needed her coach for that little moment. And then knowing if I have a projector, her work is probably going to take a little bit longer to get done. It's not that she's lazy or she doesn't want to do it. But understanding that unless she's got energy source around her, she's in done mode. I can pop in and I can support her, and then we can just move the needle just a little bit until we have to move it again. I've really loved the human design part of this in the biggest way. Then for me personally, I'm a 4 6, so community is important to me and being a role model is important. Those are my lines. The moment I actually stepped into that and it was like, what I do is for more than just myself, it just exploded my soul. That's when all these other people started to come into my space because I didn't go looking for them. They gravitated. That's beautiful. I love human design.
[00:37:36.820] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Human design, if you don't know what it is, Google it. We have a lovely person by the name of Robin Wind, who actually I trained with her. And so then when I do one on one coaching, I love to run the human design for the clients. But that is part of what we do for the confident grief coach, because we've all had our lived experiences. And so I hire someone to do a human design session with each one of you, which every time someone like yourself goes through it, they're just blown away because it's just based on the day, time, and location of your birth. So you're not answering any questions. But then you get this and like, Holy smokes. This is just like, how do you know all of this stuff about me? But it is so beautiful because it helps to be better coaches. It helps us to be better family members. It helps the griever to understand a little bit about them. When we're out of alignment, which is what happens in grief, right? There are things that can show up really sideways and people may not understand. It's like flipping a switch almost.
[00:38:51.900]
It's so helpful to be able to share with our clients and support them that this is how you came to be. Once we get you back into that alignment a little bit more with what we're doing and our conversations and the support and all of that and coaching, you're going to see that the strengths are just going to show up so beautifully. I do love that. Okay, darling.
[00:39:21.760] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
I don't want to be an expert, but I do enjoy it.
[00:39:25.420] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Right, it is. It's fascinating. And that's what I love about it. You are the most curious coach, and that's what coaching is all about. It's all about the curiosity, the excavating, the wanting to really understand. So we ask lots of questions and you're there and you have this aura of love that is just so deep, that comfort and that depth that I know every time I'm with you, I just feel like, oh, I could just sit and just hang out with you forever and ever and ever. And I'm lucky because I get to do it every week. Thank you. And things like this. And when you have a lovely mama who is your biggest cheerleader and support, she's got your back always. And that's the beauty of this. So we're getting about to time. Tell me, what is one thing you want our listeners to walk away with, whether they are working in an organization and a leader in an organization, whether they are the homemaker, whether they're an entrepreneur woman, whether they're friends or family. What is one thing that you say is, I just want to leave you with this?
[00:40:45.200] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
It'll be two. The first one is that hope is the beautiful side of grief. That needs to be a really big banner. And then the second thing is the more you know you, the stronger you are.
[00:40:59.410] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That is so beautiful. Hope, other side, and the more you know you, the better it is.
[00:41:06.590] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
It's a beautiful side of grief. When that landed on me, I was like, Yeah, it is.
[00:41:13.690] - Pat Sheveland, Host
What is that? Isn't there a poem like an Emily Dixon Center, something that hope is the thing with feathers? I can't even remember right now. Thank you. I just got distracted by a little tiny being over here because this is what happens sometimes. What I'm going to do is I just thank you so much, Geneva. We're going to have all of your contact information in the show notes. And of course, all they have to do is go to healingfamilygrief. Com. And there is your beautiful face with your bio and your contact information so that people can reach out to you. And if you are grieving, sorry, we just had a little moment. See, this is life. This is life, folks. This is life in the big city. And as coaches, we just go with the flow. We just go with the flow. We don't cut things out. We just go with the flow because this is life. And of course, when we, many of us are working from home all the time, that's even more so life. But I just wanted to say that if you are grieving and you're finding it hard to take that step forward, Coach G, honestly, just get on a call with her and just talk through it.
[00:42:31.360] - Pat Sheveland, Host
She's not pushy, she just is here to listen and she can give you the space to make some decisions on your own, like where you want to go. But absolutely reach out to her. And as I said, all of her contact information will be in the show notes here and also on the website in the find a coach page. I love you so much, darling.
[00:42:57.390] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
I just feel that way, too.
[00:43:00.860] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So much. I feel so good about this and can't wait to talk to you very soon again. But go out there and yeah, Fairy Godmother, just sprinkle that fair dust, please. Because our mission is to provide the accessible and transformative healing, which I know sometimes you don't like that word healing, but healing for grieving families throughout the world. Whatever healing is for you. We all have a different definition, but sprinkle your Fairy dust, Fairy Godmother, and I just know that everybody's hearts are just going to light up because of that. I love you.
[00:43:38.520] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Thank you. I love you too. Appreciate it.
[00:43:41.700] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Bye. Bye.
[00:43:43.140] - Geneva Livingstone, Guest
Yes. Bye.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
Summary:
This past May, Lexi Kruggel graduated from the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota with her Masters in Clinical Social Work. She is now a Licensed Graduate Social Worker (LGSW) and very recently started working as a Mental Health Counselor. Lexi has a passion for serving others, specifically those struggling with their mental health. This passion started to develop early on in her life as she witnessed loved ones and others in her community struggle with mental illness.
Lexi is also open about her struggles with her own mental health and how they have shaped her life, both personally and professionally. One thing she has learned throughout her lived experiences is how important it is to find the things in life that bring us joy, no matter how big or small, and integrate them into our daily lives. A few of the things that bring Lexi joy are playing guitar, getting snuggles from her cat Oliver, golfing, and spending quality time with loved ones.
HealingFamilyGrief.com Get my free grief ebook, "How Do I Survive?"
7 Steps to Living After Child Loss here: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/order-free-book Learn more about
Pat Sheveland: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/about-me
Schedule a coaching session: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/book-an-appointment
Shownotes:
[00:00:16.660] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Hi.
[00:00:16.950] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I would like everybody to be introduced to my new friend. My new friend is Lexie, Lexie Krugel. Just want to give you a little background on Lexie before we dive right in and just have a conversation. This past May, Lexie graduated from the University of St. Thomas in Minnesota with her master's degree in clinical social work. That is pretty awesome. She's now a licensed graduate social worker in LGSW and very recently started working as a mental health counselor at Guild Crisis and Recovery Center in Savage, Minnesota. She has a passion for serving others, especially those struggling with their mental health. This passion started to develop early on in her life, as I'm sure she'll share in a little bit, as she witnessed loved ones and others in her community struggle with mental illness. Lexie is also very open about her own struggles with her own mental health and how they have shaped her life, both personally and professionally. One of the things that she has learned throughout her lived experiences is how important it is to find the things in life that bring us joy, no matter how big or small, and integrate them into our daily lives. Amen. Amen. A few of the things that bring Lexie joy are playing guitar, getting snuggles from her cat, Oliver, golfing, and spending quality time with loved ones. That is so beautiful. Thank you so much for being a guest and visiting with me.
[00:01:42.180] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Thank you for having me.
[00:01:43.610] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Your first venture into having a conversation. I'm sure you probably have with other people, but here is just... I just want to share with the people who will be watching this. The reason why I reached out to Lexie is I met her mom, I know her mom, and we just were having a conversation. And I talk about what I do and helping families heal, find healing in their grief. And grief has a lot of different tentacles and can show up in a lot of different ways. And I was talking about how I work with parents who have experienced the death of a child and how we have to work on reframing because when a child usually when they come to me and if the child has died by suicide, we have to work on some reframing on that because there's so much guilt and not a lot of anger, but so much guilt about, we should have been able to see this. We should have been able to stop this. We should have been able to should have, should have, could have, would have, all of those things. And for many families, they can get stuck in that place.
[00:02:50.290]
And so we were just talking about that. And there's been a lot of experience in Lexie's circle between family, friends, neighbors, all of that type of thing. So she agreed to do this interview with me. Lexie, again, I am just so happy that we can have this conversation. Thank you. And we're just going to go with the flow with what you're comfortable with.
[00:03:11.800] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Sounds good.
[00:03:12.790] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I go from there. Maybe we should just start about your lived experiences because I know that there's been a lot and you don't have to go into great detail, but just share a little bit about what you have experienced in a fairly young life.
[00:03:28.790] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
So far. Yeah, absolutely. So like you said, we're being in my little bio there, it started when I was fairly young. So in our neighborhood where I grew up, we had a couple of young boys that died by suicide. And so that was my first encounter with losing people that I know to suicide. And so that happened when I was in middle school, early high school. And then I also, throughout that time, was experiencing my own depression and anxiety. I didn't have those labels for it at that point, but I just knew that I was hurting and struggling. And it was this weird, conflicting thing that was happening. I was seeing those around me in my community struggling and losing their life to that struggle. And then also dealing with my own internal struggle and trying to make sense of my own thoughts and my own feelings and having thoughts and then seeing what the aftermath was and just dealing with that conflict at a very young age right away in middle school. Fast forward to a little bit later in high school, and I actually had a family member that died by suicide as well.
[00:04:31.110] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
And so another encounter with that happening to a loved one. And again, same thing was happening for me internally. I was not getting any better. I was still struggling with my own thoughts, my own urges, and just felt so conflicted in that of seeing what happens when people are left behind after suicide, but also experiencing the very real and difficult experience of that in myself and having thoughts. And there's so many things that come along with that. And so at some point on my 21st birthday, that time period, the struggle just got really big. And I had my own attempt, and luckily I survived, and I get to be here today, and I get to sit here, and I get to have this conversation, right? So I just want to take a moment to be grateful for that. And so that's the trajectory of it started with just my community. And parallel to that was my own struggle and then making it through those years and losing people. And then it came to a point for myself where it just got really big. And I was lucky enough to be able to survive it and hopefully get to use it now first in this conversation.
[00:05:38.710]
And I'm hopeful that in my career and whoever this life takes me, that I get to continue using it for something bigger than just me. So that's a little intro to some of my experiences.
[00:05:48.920] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Oh, wow. When you think about this starting out as a middle school child and all the developmental things going on, all the hormonal change, all the different things that go on within that period of time and then to experience tragedy of such proportion because the unexpected death of someone. And there's a lot of labels. That's when I've worked with my clients and I'm just finishing up my book. I'm teaching coaches how to be more confident grief coaches so that they can... We need more people who are willing to have these conversations and sit and hold the container in the space for people who are the ones that survive their families. Those that are, did you say, left behind is the ones that are left behind. But when I'm working with the families, the biggest struggle is I think that there is a stigma attached. And so I'm thinking of one couple, their son had a successful suicide. And there was a lot of reasons for it going up to that point. He had some physical issues. As I said, I'm writing in my book, I talked about what happened in their case and everything that happened.
[00:07:02.300]
And we really had to work on the anger came really from how other people would stigmatize this when their child was a beautiful young man. And it was probably more of a death by despair thing because of what happened with his chemical makeup and all of that at the time. But that was really hard in the aftermath is not having the support system that they felt that they could really talk to anybody in their community because they felt like there was a judgment attached to this.
[00:07:35.220] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Absolutely.
[00:07:35.390] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Do you agree with that?
[00:07:36.190] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's interesting because I have the perspective of being someone who has lost people and so has been someone who's left behind. And I've also been the person who took those actions and affected people in my own life. And I think in my own healing process, after what I went through, part of the journey was being able to differentiate myself from my illness. And I think that's a huge part of the stigma is we have conversations like Lexie did this to herself. Lexie attempted to take her life. Lexie tried to leave this Earth. Lexie was going to leave us behind. How could she do that when we love her so much? And I think for me, and I think this would be helpful for those left behind as well of reframing that to like, it was the illness that did that. It was not Lexie. I just don't believe that it was me, my soul that chose to do that. I was in pain. I was struggling. I had a mental illness. Depression is a powerful force. And so I started to reframe that for myself of like, my depression did this.
[00:08:35.240]
My depression is what led me to do that. And I think that helped me a lot in being able to move through my own shame and guilt and stigma. And I think it could potentially be helpful for those that are left behind to be able to think about their loved one in that way, but also then those trying to support someone who has lost them and realize that when someone dies from cancer, we're not like, how could they do that to us? We flood them with food and cards and flowers. But when it's suicide, that's oftentimes not the case. And I think it's slowly getting better. The stigma is getting less, but it's definitely, like you were saying, still very alive and well. So that reframe, I guess, is what I was thinking about when you were sharing that.
[00:09:16.650] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I love that. Excuse me, the whole reframing of it because that's a big part of what I work with my clients. And what I'm teaching new grief coaches to do, it's about that reframing process because a lot of times we're not going to know. Excuse me. A lot of times there are no notes. There's nothing that said, this is why I did this. It's an action that all of a sudden it's just like total overwhelm from what I've heard. And there may have been planning up to it, but we can put on these personas to. Be fine through that. And in the case of the one couple where their son died, he was fine. I mean, he seemed just fine and everything was fine. And then he went off to lunch and he never came back. That was their biggest thing. And so it was the reframing. And again, it wasn't about that he did this act. I love that it's an illness, it's a disease. His happened to be a physiological disease that also the depression came through because of that. Now his mother is very adamant that we need to go out and teach our medical providers. We need to teach our school systems that when people have diseases like diabetes, depression can come right beside it, and we have to be able to address all of it, the whole scope, not just the physical diabetes. But it is a disease and depression is. It's absolutely a disease and you can do it. Right. Go ahead. You go ahead. I was just going to say I work with a children's grief camp, so we have kids and their families come twice a year to a children's grief camp. And we are very clear that we also don't use the term committed because it's like, no, it's death by suicide.
[00:11:05.510]
We're very careful about how we frame that also just to make sure that because it's not like a...
[00:11:11.920] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
A criminal act.
[00:11:12.690] - Pat Sheveland, Host
A criminal act. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So you go ahead.
[00:11:16.270] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
No, I appreciate you bringing that up and clarifying that because I even still hear the language committed within my profession and in my career. And I've only done two internships since my first job. So I want to clarify that I'm a baby social worker. But I still hear that language even in mental health settings of committed suicide. And so I appreciate you clarifying that it's died by suicide. I can't remember exactly where I was going before that, but it must not have been... It'll come back to me if it was really important.
[00:11:44.620] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Right. So I think that's an important thing when we're talking about how do we support those who are left behind. And I love that terminology for the families, the friends, the loved ones who are left behind and who are grappling because they're not in the person's head who has had taken the action. And it's very hard to know. So reframing that and understanding that it's not the person, it's not your loved one, it's not your loved one. It's chemical imbalances, it's diseases that are creating confusion and a belief that maybe things will be different. That won't be a burden on others, that type of thing. What else would you recommend for those who are left behind? Because you were left behind a lot of different time with your neighborhood friends and a family member that you would recommend, and with your social work education, that you would recommend for families and friends what they should do, especially in the immediate aftermath of the event that just happened?
[00:12:55.580] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Yeah. I think because of the stigma and shame and all of those things that come along when you lose someone to suicide. I think there tends to be like, you feel like you don't have the right to grieve or you don't have the right to experience what anyone else experiences when they lose a loved one. Somehow it's different for you because of how they left. And I remember feeling that myself, too, especially when it was my family member that I lost and feeling like, for some reason, I couldn't have the same space, I guess, to experience my grief and also the complicated nature that losing the grief is when you lose someone by suicide. It's not just straightforward grief. All grief is messy, I want to say that too. But the sudden loss that suicide often is complicates it. Would you. Agree with that?
[00:13:42.190] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely. It is a very complicated grief and you don't have the answers. That's probably the most difficult thing for someone who is left behind is because you can't get into that your loved one's head, like what led up to this? You may know peripherally or you know that there might have been challenges, but to get to that point, and it's a shock.
[00:14:03.350] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Absolutely.
[00:14:03.860] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely shock when it happens because it happens so unexpectedly, it feels like.
[00:14:08.950] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Yeah, for sure. I think part of that is trying to find a way and finding people in your life and surrounding yourself with people that acknowledge your loss for what it is, a loss, a real loss that is overwhelming and unimaginable. And you have every right to, in that support you and remind you that you have every right to experience all that grief is, the horrible parts of it, all of it. You have that right to experience it. And it's hard to remember that yourself. And so I think it's so important that whether it's professional help or you have a support network that's already around you and family and friends, making sure that they hold that belief too and acknowledge your loss for what it is, I think is really important. That's one thing that came to my mind when you asked that question.
[00:14:55.270] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, and then thinking about that because I was talking to your mom and she was talking about a neighbor boy, right? And how she slept in his room after she just literally just moved in with them for a little bit of time just to be there during this most dramatic time after that. And one of the things that I have as part of my, I call my program the breathe method. It's to help grievers walk through, learn some tools and have some internal resources. But also how do they create the framework and the structure around them. And one of them, I call it creating your tribe. And it's not the cutesy little tribe, like, oh, let's go for a glass of wine, girlfriends. This is like a truly a tribal community. And I recommend that they don't use family members, immediate family members, because your family members are grieving just as deeply and are just as in shock. So to hold that base and that container for you to be, as you were saying, to totally be able to grieve in the way that's necessary for you. So I encourage them to go find two to three people.
[00:16:04.170]
Really, I have them do just a little meditation and think about who are the two to three people that come to your mind that you know will absolutely embrace you, love you, honor everything that you're going through. So it may be a counselor, maybe someone like me, a coach, or a neighbor like your mom going in and just being there and just find those two to three people and having a conversation with them saying, This is what I need. This is really what's going to work for me. Are you willing to do that for me and create what I call a treaty, an agreement that these two to three people are absolutely going to be holding you together in your grief? Because I just think it's just so critical. And family members are wonderful, but you can be so enveloped in your own grief that they may not have the capacity to hold you in yours.
[00:16:56.070] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
They're hurting just as much. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:16:59.150] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So this is a wonderful conversation because I think it's just so important. T hat's why I reached out to you is how can I help those who are left behind, especially parents and siblings, to maybe have a different way to reframe, to have a different understanding because you have been so deeply involved in it on both aspects, both spectrums. So talk to me a little bit about you and your passion. Do you think this is what shaped you to go into social work? It's your experiences and what's your hope? You talked a little bit about that in the beginning, but what is your hope of what you're going to be bringing to the world because of your lived experiences?
[00:17:46.680] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Yeah, I do think that it's why I chose the career path that I chose. I remember just always having this knowing inside that I didn't have a title for it. I didn't have social worker as the title that I would have, but I knew I wanted to serve people and I wanted to be able to give back in some way. And that was even before I knew what I was going to be giving back. I hadn't experienced all of my own struggles yet. And from a very young age, I just felt that. And then I went through middle school and high school and lost people and struggled. And then ultimately, I think when I had my attempt and I survived and I realized that I had this chance, the second chance is what it felt like, to be able to then do something with what I've experienced. And I'm going to keep experiencing things. I'm only 24. And so to be able to continue to use those things. As far as how, I think that's still to be determined a little bit. We talked about that a little bit when we first met of this conversation feels like a start of how do I use my story?
[00:18:53.290] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
How do I use what I've been through for something bigger than just me? Because I know I'm not the one, far from the only one. I'm far from the only one. And i spent a lot of time thinking about what I needed when I was struggling, like, what was I looking for that I didn't have? Because I use that lens to try and in a way of prevention. The goal is suicide is a preventable thing. And so that's the ultimate goal is how do we prevent it and how do we change how things are right now for youth and adults and those that are losing their lives to suicide. And when I thought about that, the thing that I was missing was someone who really got what it was like, who really felt, but already been through or was experiencing that depth of depression, who had those thoughts, who understood that it was an illness, that it was beyond our control, that it's overwhelming, right? Who understood all of those things. I never was able to have a conversation or to go on Google and find something like a talk or a book from someone like that.
[00:19:51.600]
And I'm sure they exist. I'm sure they do. But I feel like if it's not readily accessible, if it's not easily known about, then there's not enough of it. And so if I can be a part of that in some way, I don't know what that's going to look like exactly, but to be able to use my voice as a person who's lost people, as a person who was in that place that I almost lost my own life to that, I feel like there's a reason that both of those positions, I held those in my life. And I'm hoping that I can use that unique perspective, I guess.
[00:20:19.150] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely.
[00:20:20.240] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
For whatever happens in the future.
[00:20:23.240] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I'm just thinking of middle schoolers. I mean, we have such... Just feels like some ramped up situations in our world. I think about these kids, you were just a little kid, and dealing with all of that. And there's so many that are 12, 11, 12, 13 that they just feel like this is too much to be here. I don't think we have all the answers. I think that there's lots of really awesome groups out there, and it's getting better and expanding. But how do we create the space for those who are feeling as those thoughts and all of those things like, hey, I'm not the only one. I'm not the only one. And to be able to have facilitators and people who have actually been able to use their lived experiences to say, Hey, it doesn't have to be this way. And I think there's people that are absolutely out there doing it.
[00:21:23.480] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
For sure.
[00:21:23.920] - Pat Sheveland, Host
But it's not enough. It's like me with grief coaching, it's like, That's great, but a lot of people don't want to talk about this stuff. We have to educate so that we have more people that are willing to sit at the table and say, Okay, let's just facilitate a conversation and open it up. Because the healing that I see, I'm all about healing family grief. I'm not healing them, but to create the space and the ability to be seen and heard is so incredibly healing. It's such a deep part of the healing process. I'm really excited to see what you do in your life. And you and I talk. There's lots of lots of different groups out there and all of that that I'll be flooding you with. Hey, here's another one you may want to talk at or whatever you may want to be doing down the road. But I'm just so grateful that you have taken that you're here. I'm grateful that you're here. Thank you. And that you have taken what you've experienced and you now are paying it forward in a beautiful, healing, loving way. That's a beautiful thing.
[00:22:29.010] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. I have one thought when you were talking here for a little bit. You were talking about making room for this healing and creating space. I think that's, I don't know, something that I feel like society has so many limits on our human experience. You can feel things, you can be sad, but just don't be too sad and get over it within 72 hours and get back to work mentality. And that happens in so many areas of our life, whether it's emotions or identity or whatever that is. And I think there's just so many predetermined boxes and limits that are holding us, I don't know, almost hostage inside of ourselves. We don't feel like there's enough space for our entire experience on a daily basis to be felt and lived and shared. And as I reflect hindsight, I feel like that also was just a huge part of one of the biggest factors in what ultimately led to what happened is just I always felt like my emotions, there wasn't enough space or my identities, I couldn't fully express them and feel safe in doing so. And so whatever that is for each human, whether it's sexuality or gender or a very sensitive person, they feel like they feel a lot and there just isn't space for it.
[00:23:40.030]
My hope is that, and I think the world is getting a little bit better with that, but that we continue to make more space for... Because we're all going through it. It's just some of us are maybe in denial that it's not happening, or I don't know what's all happening. And I don't know exactly where that thought was going, but that is what I was thinking when you were saying that.
[00:23:57.700] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, that is. I love that because especially in the world that we've been living in for the past, probably for centuries, but it just all of a sudden has blown up, imploded. The acknowledgements are out there now. There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration, but that's all because of all this build up of not having a space to freely be who we are and to explore, to explore who we are because everything does feel predetermined. And that's my goal, too, is I also am very big in that trying to find a way to express, acknowledge, explore, peel back the layers of ancestral wounding and that type of thing, because I think a lot of that we bring forward and the beliefs and the limiting beliefs that we bring forward in our families and our communities that we need to just... It feels like structures are crumbling away. The Florida, as we're doing this, the building in Florida just crumbled and it's awful. It's an awful tragedy. But it's almost like our structure is just crumbling away now. And hopefully that there's some positive out of these structures crumbling away, the limiting beliefs and all of that that we're opening it up to, as you said, everything that we're dealing with and the emotions inside of us, the sexuality, the racial, all of the different things, the cultural beliefs that we can open it up, expand all of our heart to just say, let's just be curious.
[00:25:31.700]
Let's understand. I love that. Be curious and understand, not judge, but just be curious and work to understand one another because we are all part of this beautiful universe. No one is better or worse than anybody else. Amen. Yes. Amen. Absolutely. Okay. Well, do you have any last little tidbit that you want to share before we close on our interview? This is just so beautiful. I'm just really pleased to spend this the other day morning with you.
[00:26:01.370] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Yes. No, I feel the same. No, I don't think I have anything else bouncing around in my head right now. I appreciate where this conversation went and just you holding space for it. And I get to be a part of it. So I'm just grateful.
[00:26:13.550] - Pat Sheveland, Host
We're going to still be connecting a lot down the road. Of course. I see that happening for sure. For sure. Okay, I'm going to turn off the recording. And for everybody who's listening, thank you so much for listening. And remember, hold the space. Be a large container. I don't even like to say container anymore now that we talked about that. We need to break the boundaries of containers.
[00:26:34.300] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
Yes.
[00:26:34.640] - Pat Sheveland, Host
To have the space, have the energy and the will to be curious, to understand, to reframe and let's not box in beliefs so that we can really create the ability for everybody to feel loved and understood as best as possible and find that joy in life because that's what we're here for. That's what I believe we're here for is to experience joy. But for some reason, we have then learned to behavior that we're not. We're not supposed to be happy all the time. Yeah, we are. Yeah, we are. But we have to figure out how to get there. And so people like Lexie that are going to help teach us that we can continue and pay it forward and open up. I'm not going to use container anymore. I just did that.
[00:27:19.220] - Lexi Kruggel, Guest
There we go. We removed it from the dictionary.
[00:27:21.350] - Pat Sheveland, Host
We have moved from container to just an opening of space. I love it. Beautiful. Thank you. All right. So thanks for everybody and thank you, Lexie.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com
In her book, "Proof of Miracles" World-renowned healer and medium Debra Martin takes people to places that most people think are unattainable. Her inspirational life story demonstrates how experiences such as suicide, the loss of loved ones, divorce, and near death experiences transformed her into the healer and medium she is today. After being called on by God to a life of healing and giving much-needed hope to others, Debra accepted her divine mission and has helped thousands worldwide heal spiritually, emotionally, and physically. These are true stories that go beyond our dimension and understanding, showing us that our greatest challenges and apparent failures can lead to incredible accomplishments and triumphs. Debra Martin is a lab-certified research medium. Her skills have been meticulously documented by the scientific community, most notably by Dr. Gary Schwartz (author of The Afterlife Experiments) and Dr. Julie Beischel (director of the Windbridge Research Center). Her abilities have been featured in numerous media outlets.
Visit her at: Website: goldenmiracles.com
Podcast: “Spirit Chat" Youtube: goldenmiracles1 or put in Debra Martin
Shownotes:
00:00:02.340] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Hello there. Welcome, welcome. You have come to the Healing Family Grief. And Deborah Martin here. And this is part two. Part one was talking about another book, but now we are going to be talking to her most recent book, I believe it is. Is that correct, Deborah?
[00:00:34.500] - Debra Martin, Guest
Correct, yes.
[00:00:35.790] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So what I would like to do is just read a little bit about the book, and then we are just going to dive right in and talk about the book, talk more about what Deborah does. She's just the most amazing individual. So I can't wait to share this with everybody. Welcome, Deborah.
[00:00:54.410] - Debra Martin, Guest
I'm so grateful to be here again. Our conversations, if we weren't on Zoom, we'd probably last all day.
[00:01:01.660] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely. Okay. So first of all, Deborah is a lab certified research medium. Her skills have been meticulously documented by the scientific community, most notably by Dr. Gary Swarts. He is the author of the Afterlife Experiments, and Dr. Julie special, director of the Wind Bridge Research Center. And so her abilities have been featured in numerous media outlets. And she just has so many amazing things going on. I'm going to have her contact information in our show notes below the video, but you can visit her at www.globalmiracles. Com. Now, we're going to be talking about this book and probably so much more, but she has a very great message to share with all of us. And the book is Doctor's Faith and Courage. So I'm just going to read a little bit about the jacket, what we have in the back of the book. When Deborah Martin, a renowned healer and medium, learned that she had cancer, she began a journey through one of the hardest challenges of her life. Deborah shares how she faced the fears that rose out of the debilitating treatments, as we can all imagine, and the doubts that tried to overcome her as she fought for the health of her body and her soul.
[00:02:24.110] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So she's going to talk more about this book here. I am just super, super beyond super excited to talk to you. And I know I have some questions prepared, but I just feel like I just want to have a conversation with you. Great. How's that?
[00:02:40.920] - Debra Martin, Guest
That's great.
[00:02:42.070] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So Deborah, just let's first start out about the story that's really behind the book.
[00:02:50.540] - Debra Martin, Guest
Right. So when I started writing this book, I had cancer. I didn't know what my outcome was going to be. So I just trusted spirit. They told me to write this book. And now I look at the book and I don't want people to think it's just for cancer. It's for anything that you're dealing with, any health issue. In this book, I wrote every prayer that God gave me so that they can use it as well. So it holds a lot of healing and messages and how to cope through these difficult times because when you're faced with something like that, no one thinks that they're going to hear those words, that you have something. And those words are so powerful because when somebody says that you own it, I have. And I can remember even trying to say it to my children, I couldn't get the words out. And they're like, what? Because I wanted to be very careful that I wasn't owning it, right? But I knew I had to share it. So I ended up sharing it with very few limited people because I didn't want the message to be, did you hear what Deborah Martin has?
[00:04:00.990]
Because that holds so much energy. And so I kept it to a very tight, small group that I felt, okay, this is really between me and God here. And that's when writing the book became almost like a treasure, but it also became a goal. And I tell anyone that's going through a difficult time to set goals, even if it's like every week. I set goals. And those are what helped me get through each week. Okay, I made another week. And so goals are really, really important and they're powerful, but they're uplifting because you know, Wow, I did it. I did this. I made it through this. So that's why I wrote the book, but also to give people hope. It's called Doctor's Faith and Courage because we are the courage. We have so much courage within us, more than what we know. And that's what I discovered. And doctors, when I was a healer, do I go to a doctor? What will my peers think? You're a healer. How could you go to a doctor? Well, I had no choice. I felt my children were saying, You have to do this. You're already at stage 4.
[00:05:16.780]
And I thought, Well, let me ask God. And God also helps these doctors do the abilities that they do. And so I learned that we need to use every tool in our toolbox. It's not just the doctors. It's just not just my courage, but it's my faith, too. And when I combine them all with the lessons that I teach you in this book, it's so profound and so undeniable.
[00:05:46.360] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Wow. As a registered nurse by background, so I certainly have had all of that clinical training in Western medicine. And as a Qigong practitioner, which is the Eastern healing ourselves and knowing that we were born a healer and marrying that up and then bringing in that spiritual connection. And that it's like the trifecta, right?
[00:06:14.260] - Debra Martin, Guest
That's the thing in spirit.
[00:06:16.090] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Right. Spirit is there. And I would imagine that some people because you have had a great... What do I want to say? I wouldn't call it a career, but you're a healer and you've been a healer. And now all of a sudden you're faced with a very serious illness. Stage 4 cancer, for anybody who doesn't understand how they stage it, means that it has spread. It's a wildfire inside our bodies, and it's going through the bloodstreams and doing all kinds of stuff. And I imagine that some people are thinking, how can this happen to you? You're a healer. You've got this great medium ship connection. How does this happen to you? So how would you respond to that, knowing what you know today?
[00:07:02.630] - Debra Martin, Guest
It's interesting you say that because I asked the same question. I went into prayer and said, really? I've been through so much, car accidents, near death experiences. I've done everything that I felt God wanted me to do and to become who I am. So I placed it in my prayers. What is this for? What lesson is this going to bring me? So instead of owning it, it's like, why are you here? Why are you here? Let me learn from you. Let me embrace you. And that's really important because we learn to fight, fight, fight. We're going to fight that cancer. We're going to fight that illness. We're going to fight whatever it is. And I learned that fighting is resistance. And if we embrace our bodies, because our bodies are magnificent, if we embrace the cancer, which I wasn't pleased that I had it, but if I embrace that cancer, I was embracing it with love. So imagine a child that comes to you, right? That's sick. They come in the home, have a fever, and you go, Oh, I'm frustrated. Just go to your room. Or do you just say, Come here, let's get you some medicine, let's lay down, and you comfort and nurture them and you love them.
[00:08:19.720]
And that's what you're doing to yourself. I would oftentimes just hold myself like this, and I would just say, I love you, cancer. I love you because I know you're bringing me something very profound. I know that there's a reason here. I walked through that and it was very difficult. I'm going to take you a few steps back because in January of 2019, I had a vision from Spirit that came to me that said, You need to write this book and you need to get it done now. Okay, why? Because this is your legacy. Now, that was my book, Proof of Miracles. So I started to get panicked. Like, Well, why? But then again, I just pushed it aside and going, Why be panicked? There's no reason, right? Well, then in February, I was having this irritated hemorrhoid. And so I'm like, I'm just going to go to my doctor's. Now, I had seen the doctor back in November for this same hemorrhoid, and they said, We don't like to take hemorrhoids out. It's not cleared up. Just leave it. Sorry about that. The dog's excited.
[00:09:20.420] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I love it. I love it.
[00:09:21.760] - Debra Martin, Guest
So then in February, what happened is I woke up again and I heard, Get it out now. And I heard, Oh, my gosh, they're talking about the hemline. So I made the doctor appointment right away. When I went into the doctor's office, she looked at me like, What's your problem? Why are you back here? I told you we're not going to remove this. So I said, Well, I want it removed. So she said, Well, let me look at it. And she looked at it, it was cleared up. And she's like, Deborah, we don't like to take these out. You're going to be in a lot of pain. And I said, Intuitively, I know I need to. Now, we fought for a good 10 minutes over this. Even when I was bent over the table in a very vulnerable position, she's at the front, leaning over the table saying, I don't want to do this. Are you sure? That's when I trusted spirit. I knew my body better than that doctor. That's a huge message for all of us. Doctors are practicing. They know what their protocols are. They know what they need to do for you, but you know your body better.
[00:10:22.830]
And I knew that this had to come out. So she removed it and she said, Would you like to see it? I said, Yeah. So I looked at it, didn't think too much, but it was really good that I did look at it. I thought, Oh, it just looks dead like a lima bean, right? No life to it. She questioned sending it in to get like buy up, see it. And she's like, No, we'll just do this. And one week later, I got a call when I was driving to get my hair done. And she said, Deborah, where are you? I said, Driving. And she said, Well, could you go back home? I said, No. She said, Could you pull over? And I said, Sure. And she said, I am so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. But this came back cancer, full of cancer. And people asked me, were you angry with her? I can't be because she's human, right? She learned from this. She learned to listen to her patient. And I was learning, too. Now, was I a little upset when she told me, oh, this is not going to be that big of a deal.
[00:11:23.910]
And then when I saw my radiation doctor, he's like, this is going to be a huge deal. And I was like, side, like, hit right in the gut. Are you kidding me? This is what I have to go through? And I had my friend there and she's like, she looked blank and she's like, What are we doing right now? What did we just hear? And it was going to be a six weeks continuous chemo and radiation straight every day. You could have the weekends off. So it was going to be like you are really going to be hit hard. So that's the message I learned out of that is please trust your own gut, trust your own body. Many times we leave the office listening to what they tell us to do, but our guts telling us something different. And how I know this is the spirit, right? Like, look.
[00:12:12.320] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I just so resonate with that. With so many people that I've come in contact with is, your body is so filled with wisdom. And so listen, listen to the messages. And when something is not feeling right, you need to be your own advocate. And like you said, I come from the medical field, and so we all do our best. And we have the knowledge that we have, but that's it. We only have so much knowledge. And then you have, like you said, protocols to go through and that type of thing. So this probably looked very benign.
[00:12:49.700] - Debra Martin, Guest
Oh, it did. And I'm telling you, when you hear that word, my life changed in that moment. I now felt like I was actually going to be traveling to see my daughter. And so I remember just meeting with all the doctors and flying up that same day, walking through the airport was so different than I ever felt before. I'm now wondering, will I ever do this again? Will I ever get to visit my grandkids again? Well, look at that family. They're so happy. Will I ever laugh again? I just felt like I was in this bubble that I couldn't get out of, this heavy, heavy blanket. And it became all the unknowns, right? We have so many unknowns. And what was that causing me? Fear, fear, fear, fear. So now I'm having all this fear, all these unknowns. Is that serving me? It was not. It was weighing me down. So what I had to do was I had to replace that fear with faith, knowing that no matter what, I was going to be okay either way.
[00:13:47.550] - Pat Sheveland, Host
It's funny. I coined the phrase and I just have to share this. This was several years ago. Faith, it's like a faith, hope and love. And so I've coined some phrases, but for faith, it is just so apropos here because for the word faith, for the acronym, it's finding awesome inspiration to heal. And that's it. Isn't that funny? Isn't that crazy?
[00:14:10.220] - Debra Martin, Guest
Yeah, I've never heard that. I love that.
[00:14:12.580] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And that's just exactly what you're talking about. It's just I have to lean into faith. And faith is finding these ways to heal. And also when you were talking about I needed to embrace, because right when you were saying the word embrace, embrace came into my mind because we do want to fight. And you see all, and I'm not saying anything against the people that are wearing their trust. I have done it for my friends with breast cancer and who have died with various kinds of cancer and that we're going to fight for this. And I've done it. I've walked the walks. I've done all of these different things. And a few years ago, it's like, why are we creating a war out of this? It's embracing it. And that's what I learned through my Qigong training and also my spiritual work is exactly what you are sharing with all of us is it's embracing and finding out what's the beauty in it and what are we learning from this and who's learning from this. Sometimes we may go through the challenge. But like you said, your physician learned something so great that she will never, ever, I imagine, ever in her career brush anything off and say, no, no, no.
[00:15:27.020]
She's going to actually take it a step further and listen different out life.
[00:15:30.680] - Debra Martin, Guest
Yes. And people are like, oh, do you want to go after her and all this stuff? It's like, no, she already learned it. And I felt very much at peace with that. And so then you talked about embracing and walking through this. And I remember saying to God, I'm going to embrace this, and I'm going to have the courage to go through this. But I'm telling you, every step there was a little frightened. I was scared. So I figured, okay, we still have to feel. We can ignore that. So I still had to cry. I still had to go through my emotions. And I can remember seeing the radiation machine for the very first time. And when I saw that radiation machine, the first time I was scared. What's this thing going to do to me? It's huge. And so the second day and from that day forward, I decided, no, this was created for me. This is for me. So when I went in, it became my God time. And I learned one day through the machine that cancer, I received a shirt that had a heart on it and it said fighting, right?
[00:16:42.040] - Debra Martin, Guest
Well, I now take that word fighting and I use it as an arm me. What does that mean? I built my army around me. Who was going to support me during this time? And not just supporting me, like making meals and things like that, but really support me by giving me joy. Because if they can come in and bring laughter, that really helps feed the soul. So as I was in the machine, I started thinking, okay, we're going to build this army and we're going to be I actually thought the name of the publishing was going to be Army for Love. And that's what it's all about. You're building your army for love. And so the heart and the fighting, I put it together now as that's your army and that's your love. And so I tweaked it a little bit.
[00:17:34.590] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I like that. An army of angels, actually. That's what I'm saying is like, you're building an army, it's not to fight and hurt or harm. It is a fight to surrounding yourself to lift you up.
[00:17:50.350] - Debra Martin, Guest
It's love. I can tell you, I still did healing sessions until I wasn't able to. But during that process, I learned how my body is really just an instrument and how I was able to remove myself and still allow my body for God to use it for healings. And it was just amazing. I felt so much better being in that healing room with that energy and the connection seemed so pure. And I think it's because what happens is I no longer was going to worry. When I finished all the treatments and now you're going back to work and now you're getting your life back, all of the humanness starts coming out. And we do have our daily worries during the day. We do have things that we have to get done. And I noticed, Wow, what it changed. When I was over there, I was really in this peaceful state. And I'm not saying it wasn't hard, right? I went through a lot of hard, hard days, but I really recognized my connection there as so profound. And I think it's just because I had no worry. And that was another lesson is, why worry?
[00:19:03.680] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Because it's not going to serve us. So there were so many lessons and I write them all in the book. I could go on and on, but I did bless my medicine. I blessed the machine. I blessed the cancer. I had to take 18 cancer pills a day, and I would find a really pretty cup and I would put two in at a time, and I would thank it. Thank you. Thank you. I can remember the first time going, Can I say these words? Because I really sat down and asked God, What should I say? What is going to work for this? So I wrote those words in the book for you to use as well, others. And so when I held that there, I was like, To say thank you to these pills and then digest them, knowing what they're going to do. They became easier and easier because I was embracing them. And do you know that I knew when I was done with those pills, I ended up being done before treatment was over. And I said, My body can't take this anymore. I know my body is out of health. And the doctor said, No, we have to finish this.
[00:20:07.850]
And so they would do blood tests to make sure your platelet count and everything. And that was on a Friday by Monday, when my platelet count came in and I took it that day, they're like, Oh, you can't take it medicine anymore. And so I knew Spirit was still, had my back was working through me, and I was still my advocate of what I was feeling. And our family, they want you to fight. They don't want to lose you. You have to do this. You have to do this. There's a funny chapter in this book. I was told by my doctors not to eat any carbs. None. So there comes to a point where your body just wants something that will be sustainable, that will be thick to hold everything in because you're just losing it all. So there's a chapter called I Want My Bagel. And I can remember laying in bed going, how am I going to present this to my son that I want a bagel today? And I said, okay, so I'm going to start with, I want an egg. And then I thought that it would be really nice, maybe a piece of cheese and some fruit, some berries.
[00:21:13.470] - Debra Martin, Guest
But I would really like my egg on top of a bagel. And I texted that. He's in the other room, I'm texting that. And I come out and he's like, Mom, we need to have a talk. And I know he was doing that. And he even called my other son, and they're talking to me like, they're my parents. You can do this for us. You do not eat the bagel. And I'm crying. I just want the bagel. I don't want these eggs. And so I can remember I was going to email my doctor. She'll listen to me. So I email her and say, this is what's happening. I don't know what you suggest. So that following Monday, we were being seen by the doctor. And I can remember sitting with my son and she's like, now, Deborah, how's your eating going? I said, This carb thing is really hard. I've had enough. My body just can't hold anything in. I need something substantial. And she goes, Well, if you ever feel like you want a bagel, my.
[00:22:14.390] - Debra Martin, Guest
Son s face is looking at me. So when we left, he's like, Just eat what you can at this point. So I said to my son, Well, can you tell the family that? He's like, No, I still don't believe that. And he's a doctor himself in environmental science, but he works with Johns Hopkins. So he's around a lot of people that he was getting advice and said, Yeah, try not to take any sugar in because sugar does feed cancer. And I just knew, again, you don't know my body. I was yelling at my kids, You don't know this. I need this. And they're like, No, you don't. Down to the last infusion, my other son was here. And he's like, You have to have that last infusion. And I said, I can't. If I have that last infusion, I'll die. I really felt the Spirit was telling me. So I'm crying. I can't have that last infusion. And he's like, Mom, you have to. You made it this far. Why wouldn't you do the last one? I said, Well, we get the blood test today and we'll just put it in God's hands and see what happens. I go to the radiation treatment and then the doctor calls her in the car after the radiation.
[00:23:19.570]
And she's like, well, Deborah, we can't do this last infusion. It would be really, really unhealthy for you. This would be scary. So now my son's angry. Well, why would you have that last infusion for her? And so if she doesn't take that last infusion, even though you're saying this is protocol, then what is my mom's chances? She's not going to survive this. He's mad. And I'm like, You need to just trust the process. And that's part of it, too. We have to trust the process and how we're feeling and what we're going through each stage and step of the way. But it was quite the journey. And I write some of the hardships, the funny things, things that were like, what family expects and just laugh at it.
[00:24:06.040] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, thankfully, you're here to laugh about it. And you taught your children some really valuable lessons. Sometimes it's not always following the protocol, it's listening to ourselves advocacy keeps coming through my head. It's that being the advocate. And even with our family and our friends, and I'm thinking when I'm working with my grief clients is, being your own advocate and knowing that everybody means well, they love you so much. But if it doesn't resonate for you to do that or do this, it's okay to just say, I love you. But this is the path I'm going to go down. Trust me. Trust me. Trust me.
[00:24:55.150] - Debra Martin, Guest
Everybody's going to go through it differently. And so that's what the doctors have to follow, right? Because they don't know at this stage this is what could happen. And then they watch you and it's really you speaking to them. How do you feel? And so I can remember walking into my radiation doctor and I could barely walk in. The nurses had to hold my arms to walk me in. I can remember sitting there going, I'm not having a good day. This is what I love about this doctor. He walked in and he's like, but you are having a great day. And he'd have a smile on his face. I'm like, I am? I'm crying. And he's like, Yes, because I've seen patients that have been where you are, and you're doing fantastic. And I'm like, Okay, I'm doing fantastic. And it is just that verbiage that changed my mental state. And so he was such a great role model to me. My doctors are... And what's interesting is my son's name is Steven and my daughter's name is Stephanie, and my radiation doctor was Steven and my chemo doctor was Stephanie. So I knew that when I first met them, like, oh, you guys spirit, you're really funny.
[00:26:08.810]
Could you tell me that I'm not in the right space? I can tell you, though, when I first met my radiation doctor, he's like, so, Deborah, tell me a little bit about you. What do you do for a living? I was like, oh, talk about having to share your vulnerabilities. So I did. And he just said, Deborah, I believe that. I believe you're still a healer, but your body, you're human. And as you go through life, no matter if you're a healer or not, you're going to deal with things in life that you're going to have to face. And I knew right then this guy gets it. And so, yeah.
[00:26:45.500] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, and I. Think as I think about everything that goes on in our life, for us to be really available and to hold the space for the people that we work with through healing and holding them and helping them because they're the ones that are really taking on and saying, I'm going to do the healing. It's like you're that conduit between God and them to help this process.
[00:27:15.070] - Debra Martin, Guest
My feelings were so profound. I'm telling you, the feedback was like, Wow. And so in the book, my assistant, Valerie writes a chapter on what she witnessed from behind the scenes and just seeing, Wow, look at how powerful our bodies really are. And it showed me how much courage we really do have inside of us.
[00:27:36.470] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely. And then when you were talking about the verbiage and that type of thing, we all know that we are mostly made of water. We also know that there are studies out there that talks about the impact of words with water. Dr. Emoto and he did all the messages with water. And just clearly, when we're giving ourselves those positive messages and when others around us are giving us those positive messages and thinking those positive messages and having that positive energy just surrounds us, our body is going to respond. It's going to say yes, because our bodies love us and want to embrace all those positive things of joy and health and happiness and courage and all the stuff that we're made of.
[00:28:26.000] - Debra Martin, Guest
Right. In fact, one of the tools that I learned was joy. We are all joy. We have joy within us. But what could bring me joy? Now, I got to the point where I couldn't smell food. I couldn't even have anybody cook in the house. So my neighbor would make the food for us and bring it. And still, sometimes I couldn't. So I was like, Wow, I saw the joy in that. Look at what someone's going to do for me. I can remember not being able to even go to the grocery store. I felt like it's 100 years old. I had to hang on to a cart and I thought, Oh, I could do this. And I realized I couldn't. So where was the joy in that? The joy was I will eventually, but I tried it. I could try it. And then joy, I can remember the joy of going, I can do a little laundry again. Wow, the little things that we take for granted. And so I started to think, okay, well, we need to start, all of us need to start looking at the joy in each day, even when we're having a terrible day.
[00:29:31.840]
We find that one piece of joy because that changes that day around. And so now I walk with the attitude of gratitude. That's my foundation. I think if we can all have that, that's that attitude we're talking about that affirmations and how we feel about ourselves and how life is. The world is really chaotic right now, but we have to say, but we are still at peace and we are still at joy. And so no matter no matter what you're going through, find that piece of joy.
[00:30:02.750] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Absolutely and when you talk about it in the world around us can feel chaotic. And even in our own families or whatever in our jobs. But if we just can drop that little droplet of joy in that water, the ripple effect just starts bringing in everybody else into that because it's that energy. That energy to get the energy, right?
[00:30:25.440] - Debra Martin, Guest
Yes, that's that energy and light. So when I was writing the book, it was coming to the end where I had to go get my PET scan. So how am I going to feel? How am I going to embrace this? Was I going to be nervous? What was I going to do? And I thought, no, I'm going to trust. I'm going to trust that whatever outcome it is, is what God wants this to be. But I felt such at peace during the whole process of loving my cancer. And I'll tell you what I learned from it and what it gave to me so that I could say goodbye to it. But I remember at the PET scan sitting there and they're going to put the dye in your arm and the gentleman goes, so Deborah, her name is Deborah Martin. I said, yes. And you had a cancer? And I go, I love you. And he's like, what did I just say? And I'm like, beaming. I'm just so beaming. And he's like, I said, you said had. You just gave me a message. Yes, yes, yes. So I can remember getting onto the scanner.
[00:31:31.420]
And every time I would go for a pet scan, they would put me on a white blanket. And even when I had my radiation treatments, I would tell the nurses, this is God's white light on me. He's surrounding me and holding me right now. And they loved it. They actually cried the last day going, oh, we're going to miss putting this blanket on you, right? So I can remember going in there, but he placed it on different this time. He placed one this way, and then he rolled one around my head like a halo. And then he had my hands up. So I had my hands up and I'm like, okay, God, I just want to feel this. I want to feel you. This is a beautiful thing. We are going to have victory here and be able to tell everybody. So let's prove it to the world. That's my way I was thinking because I already heard the word hat. Now I go in there and I'm sitting in there really peaceful, quiet, and I feel somebody touch this arm and this arm up here. And all of a sudden it's my parents. And I could cry right now because they go, We've been by your side the entire time.
[00:32:31.540] - Debra Martin, Guest
We've never left you. We love you. And it was such a beautiful, profound experience. And then the last time you're coming out of that machine, my hands are up like this, right? So I'm like, victory, victory, victory. So I go home and I'm feeling positive about that. But Valerie, I call her and tell her my experience. She goes, Deborah, I was in meditation with you and your parents showed me that they were there with you, that one was on your left and one was on your right. And I go, you were right. And so she validated that to me. And it just made it even more profound. So that part of the journey just became like, AHA. And then my doctor didn't wait till I came in the office he called me and said, left me a message. I had gone to the bathroom and I see the message and I'm like, Oh, okay, there's a message here. It's a big call. What am I going to do? And so I'm like, all right, brace yourself. God, these are the words I'm going to hear. You don't know what you're going to hear. So I press the recording and I hear his words going, Well, I didn't want you to wait until you had to see me because I know that you would hold a lot of questions unknown, but you're cancer free.
[00:33:45.680] - Debra Martin, Guest
And I just was like, I danced. It's just in my house. I was like, yeah. Thanking spirit, thinking God. And I went back into prayer and I thanked the cancer. I said, you gave so much to me. And I said, there's two things I learned. I learned to see the beauty in the beast.
[00:34:07.090] - Debra Martin, Guest
And what was that? I do healings for people all over the world. I never knew what these people went through. I was always looking through the door, looking through the glass. Now I'm on that same side. I know what they're going through. So my empathy, my compassion just blew up. I can remember at the beginning saying, Well, I have compassion? Why do I need to go through this? I had no idea. None. I said, Thank you, Cancer, for this lesson. I now can help on such a deeper level to those people that I'm relating to. The empathy, the compassion, the feeling of me wanting to hold their hand just like God was holding mine. I am telling you, that was such a beautiful meaning message that I saw the beauty in the beast that was in me. And I said goodbye to it. And to this day, I just had learned because now it's been over a year, two years in February of next year. And they said, you're done. This will probably never come back. Wow.
[00:35:22.010] - Debra Martin, Guest
So it was here to teach me. It was here for a reason. I didn't know that, but always ask yourself that question, what are you here to teach me? What are you here for? And some of us, there's many people that will still transition, but what did they get from that? Maybe more quality time? There is always a blessing in everything. And I know it's hard to see that. I'm thinking when I heard it, what's the blessing here? Look what I have to go through. Like I said, I use the tools of having goals. I even show the goals. I write them all down for everyone in the book and the prayers and the gratefulness. And yes, I do get raw and say, I'm not perfect. I'm having an awful, awful day because then you know, this isn't just written to be foo foo it. This is real stuff. And I take it serious. I take my healing serious. I take every patient or client that comes to me. And it touched me to my core.
[00:36:33.260] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, number one, I have to tell you that you were talking about this white blanket, but what's interesting and I don't know if people will see it when they're watching the video, but I'm listening and looking at you and you have this beautiful white aura that's been covering you the whole time that we've been on this conversation. So I can see it. I don't know if it'll show up on the video, but then you started talking about the white blanket and just started expanding over your head and your shoulders. And it was like, oh, this is just so amazing. I'm getting flushed here just thinking about it. And that's, I think, so important is that sometimes oftentimes we have to go through those challenges in order to really understand, to walk in someone's shoes, to really have that total understanding. And if you had not, we would not have this beautiful book with prayers, tools to say here. And I'm just thinking, man, I'm going to get a bunch of copies of this because anytime I know that someone that I love and care for is going through a challenge such as yours. And like you said, it's not just cancer.
[00:37:48.490] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And it doesn't necessarily have to be a physical challenge. It could be an emotional, psychological, spiritual challenge that's that deep that all of these things that all intersect. And so if you had not done that and gone through the depths and risen like a beautiful Phoenix out of the fires, and you are the beauty within the beast, I mean, right? The Beast was a being you and your beauty just was like, okay, I'm going to love you. I'm going to love you. I'm going to love you. And together now the whole movie of Beauty and the Beast is coming to me now. I'm going to love you. And you just see how beautiful and what's really underneath the Beast.
[00:38:38.040] - Debra Martin, Guest
It's so true. And I think if we can all look at that, right? What is it bringing to us? And what message is it giving to us? And just see it on a whole different level. It can give you peace. And I didn't know until the end. I wasn't seeing the beauty. I was going through all of the hardships. But I do trust that there are blessings in everything. I do write on the back of the book. I don't have it, you have it. But it says, if you need this book, if you would like this book, it gives bullet points of why you would read this. But the real message is that love heals. And we are all one. We are all loved. So we should spread that love. And that to never lose hope, never lose hope. Because when we start to lose hope, that's when we give up and allow that light within us, God's light within us to just give us that strength, that courage that we have more. Like I said, I had more than I ever knew I had. And through this experience, God molded me into the healer that I am today.
[00:39:44.910] - Debra Martin, Guest
So I'm a better healer. That's just how I have to say it. It really has made me that. So I have to think it. And that's the other thing is gratitude. Always give thanks. Thanks for everything. I thank the machine. I thank the doctors. I thank the pills that I was taking. I think it was just always giving gratitude for everything. I thank you that I made it to the bathroom. Seriously. And I'm thankful that other people have it so much worse. And that's what I would think, too. Okay, I'm not the only one here. And other people are even going through more difficult situations than I am. And so that's the other thing I don't want to take away from anyone is that my hardship isn't any bigger than someone else's. It's just that I learned from it and what I'm trying to share with others so that they, too, can apply these and not lose hope.
[00:40:45.430] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That is so beautiful. So hope, can I share you what I made up for hope?
[00:40:51.150] - Debra Martin, Guest
Yes, these tweetable moments we have. These tweetable moments,
[00:40:54.690] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Honoring our purpose every day. Just being in hope, that's what it is about honoring our purpose and having that hope to do that, just honoring our purpose. And your purpose is here to help people heal in so many different ways, to connect with their loved ones. We haven't even talked about, you know, your medium ship capabilities, except what I read in the bio. But there's just so many things that that's what you're here for. And that was honoring your purpose. That hope brought you because it could have been very different. And the only other thing that I wanted to make mention is we talked about, yes, some people will transition. But to me, I tell people, healing occurs on many, many different levels.
[00:41:37.460] - Debra Martin, Guest
And that's what I wrote in Proof of Miracles. So that was the book that I had to hurry and get out. So I did get that out. And I just did a revision because I was such in a hurry to get it out that I didn't even revise it. So I finally did that. But it is. It's about connecting with our loved ones. And we all have that ability. But go back to healing. I believe we all have that ability to heal, too. It's within us. And sometimes we need the doctors to help us. Sometimes we need another person to help get to those root issues or that little bit of extra energy because we don't have it to heal. That's what I'm here for is to be that instrument for you and allow God to use me to give you what you need. Healing is on all levels, emotional, physical and spiritual. It's not just on one. It's limitless, really. Some people come, Well, can this be healed? It's like, Well, with God, anything is possible. But then again, some of my strong sessions, God will tell me, This isn't about you. Then my intention is for miracles for everybody, and then that person passes and like you say, Well, what was the gift there?
[00:42:58.090]
What did they receive from that healing? It could be a message. It could be the gift of time. It could be peace. It could be love. It could be having the divine connection. I received an email from somebody that said, I didn't realize the connection I was receiving that you were giving me now with the relationship with God, that that in itself was priceless. So it's a divine connection because, like I said, I am just the vessel. I have to remove my humanness and allow it to be orchestrated. And I did that with my cancer. I tried to remove my humanness from it and just allow my body to heal.
[00:43:39.260] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Oh, this has just been... I get tingles all over when I talk to you. The energy is just so beautiful. You truly are the real deal. You are absolutely an angel on this Earth. And you're human. And that's what I do.
[00:43:57.940]
You're human, too. So when someone doesn't give you a bagel, you might want to have a temper tantrum. That's okay. Yeah, we're all human. And the emotions, like you said, the anger and the fear and all that. And we need to be able to feel our feelings.
[00:44:13.390] - Debra Martin, Guest
Yes, it's important. Yeah. So to push them away. That's the one thing with healing is we say, feel, you have to feel to heal. So I had to feel these emotions. I had to walk through them. I had to embrace them. But then somebody shared this with me. I thought it was really cute. They said they were grieving and they said, I know I have to feel and I know I have to grieve. But I then decided, well, I'm going to allow it to come in the door. It can be here for 10 minutes. And then after 10 minutes, I say goodbye. So she allowed it, but she didn't allow it to take over. And that's what we need to remember. Especially with grieving, you know that there is no time. There is no limit. It's all individual. But if you can embrace it and give it the time it needs, give yourself the time it needs, but also give yourself that time to nurture and love yourself because it is all about love.
[00:45:13.700] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yes, it is. You're preaching to the choir sister.
[00:45:18.650] - Debra Martin, Guest
I feel like. Wait, then I should be saying that you should be.
[00:45:22.450] - Pat Sheveland, Host
No, this is what it's all about is it's just like we are so symbiotic that way. And I am just so, so grateful that we got connected through a mutual friend that I've been able to get to know you more. I know that our paths will always stay intersected throughout probably the rest of our lives in the past that we have here. That's what I feel. So I just want everybody to know how to reach you. Just give it to it. I'm going to have it in the show notes. And one last tidbit that you would like to end with that you would like to share with the audience.
[00:46:04.040] - Debra Martin, Guest
Well, you mentioned it. You said you and I are connected, and I believe we are all connected and we are all one. And if we can all put out love for each other and love for ourselves, I think the world will feel that energy. And so that's what we're here to do is to love. Nothing else matters. So remember that. Love yourself, tell yourself to love yourself and just spread the love.
[00:46:29.660] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I'll have all of Deborah's contact information. And if you like what you're hearing here, subscribe to my channel, subscribe to Deborah's channel because I'll have that on there. Please just reach out to her and find her on social media. See what's going on with her because it's amazing stuff. She's got lots of books. She's a wealth of knowledge. And when you start reading these books and what people are sharing their stories about their work with Deborah, like, Holy smokes, it's just absolutely amazing. So miracles occur daily. Just know that miracles occur daily. And as soon as we lift our hearts and open our hearts to that, that's when it just allows it to come in. So I just want to thank you so much, Deborah. I am just so appreciative. I'm so honored that you took the time here to be with me. I'm excited that I'm getting this YouTube channel off the ground. And you're lifting it up and starting it out with me. So I really appreciate that.
[00:47:41.280] - Debra Martin, Guest
I'm so honored. And you know what? Speaking with you is effortless. It's fun. And to be able to share my story, I've only shared it one other time. So this is huge for me. And I want to thank you with so much gratitude and love to you for doing this. And for anybody else that wants to reach out to me, they can go to my website at www.goldenmiracles.Com. And I look forward to hearing from what people think about the book. Absolutely.
[00:48:10.420] - Pat Sheveland, Host
All right. Well, thank you and peace and love to all of you.
Get Pat's free grief ebook, "How Do I Survive? 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss" here: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/order-free-book.
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