In this interview with Tim Mackey, we get yet another perspective on adoption. Tim was relinquished at birth spending 6 months in an orphanage setting before being adopted by his parents. It wasn’t until an ancestry DNA test led him to his birth family in his early 50’s.
Tim shares his thoughts on how to one should prepare themselves mentally if they choose to reach out and connect with their birth family.
Shownote:
Welcome again to this episode for Healing Family Grief on Adoption, where we believe that grief and gratitude can coexist. In this interview with Tim Mackie, we get yet another perspective on adoption. Tim was relinquished at birth, spending his first six months in an orphanage setting before being adopted by his parents. It wasn't until an ancestry DNA test led him to his birth family in his early 50s. Tim shares his thoughts on how one should really prepare themselves mentally if they choose to reach out and connect with their birth family so that however that goes, whether they're fully embraced or there is resistance to meeting, that the adoptee can walk away feeling secure and as whole as possible and not have unexpected trauma occur when things don't go the way that they really think that they should go. It's a wonderful interview. Please take a listen. If you do enjoy this show, please hit the like and subscribe button.
That way we know if this is interesting information for you, you can leave us some questions. We'll be really thrilled to answer those questions and be on the lookout in early November for a live group chat about all that we've talked about in this series. Enjoy and I hope you have a wonderful day.
Hello, everybody. Once again, I am so excited to be here and to be able to share some stories from my family members with this whole piece that we're doing on adoption and where grief and gratitude really can coexist together. We know that there's a lot of both within this. Tim Mackey happens to be my brother-in-law, who we've got to meet each other. I don't even know how many years ago it was. It hasn't been super long, but we're just so happy that Tim found this part of the family and that we have this new member. Tim has an adoption story, and so we're just going to move forward with that. He's going to share a little bit about himself, and we'll ask some questions. Welcome, my friend, my brother.
Hello. Thanks for the invite. Glad to be here. Thank you.
What I'd like to do is just start out a little bit about your story. A little bit about maybe what you've heard, what you haven't heard, but your story of being adoptee in a family.
Yeah. I was born in Santa Clara, California, in 1968, and I was adopted when I was about six months old to Mark and Betty, Mackie, and they moved to Seattle, to Chicago, back to Seattle, where I started high school and finished college and got married, and now I settled in. My sister, I actually have a sister one year younger than I am and a brother two years, and all three of us are adopted. My mom and dad wanted to have adopted kids, but she bought a DNA test about four years ago, and just on a whim, I decided to take it. Lo and behold, I found out that I had a half brother that had just taken it. I reached out to them, to Ken, Matt's husband, and then everything just happened pretty quick after that. I went from being the oldest of three to the youngest of five in just less than a week, I would say. When I found out this... I'd always searched as a kid, not really putting too much effort into it, but just curious more than anything else. The reason is my adoption papers said that I was Cherokee and Blackfoot, and so I wanted to learn a little bit about tribal enrollment, if that was a possibility or anything along those lines.
And so it was not really too hard at all. At about the age of 40, I just said, I'm happy. Both my parents love me and I'm happy where I'm at. And then my sister, I took the test and then met Ken. And so it was interesting in that the whole time I didn't walk into it with any assumptions or expectations. And I think that's really the key for anybody that is looking for or that has found their adopted parents or whatever is you come into it with the ability just to walk away without it affecting you or having any remorse or anger or upset. That's how I approached coming into it. When I met with Ken and my brother and mom at their house in Arizona, of course, that trip down Friday, I was shaking like a leaf and then Saturday morning, really nervous. The hour and a half drive to the house was really… I probably turned around about 10 times just because I was nervous. Then saying to myself, Hey, if this doesn't work out, you're in a good spot with your life and where you're at, it's okay. That made it easier to make that trip.
Then walking out and meeting the family. Ken, we had talked a couple of times on the phone, and he just came over and gave me a great big hug and Billy as well. We talked for a little bit and went in and met my mom. That was just like looking in a mirror. I still remember everything about that with Joyce. She said, I've been wondering how long or how you've been doing forever. I think she was really happy to find out that her son was in a good place. We've visited for a couple of hours that day and I got a chance to spend some good time with Ken and Billy. Everyone was welcomed to the family. In that regard, it was really easy then to do the next things and do trips to meet people and know the extended family. At the same time, like my sister, she met her family and it was a complete opposite story. She's had the opposite, so it's been a lot harder for her than me. But I think coming into it, not expecting anything, and the willingness to walk away is really, really important. If you put too much into it, who knows how it's going to go?
So you have to be able to walk away. I told everybody that at the start. So you don't know me, I don't know you. If this causes any upset or hard feelings, then I'm done and I'll just back out. And everyone was, No, we want to meet you. And in that regards, it worked out really well. But if one person had said, No, this is too upsetting. I would have just said, okay, that's fine. Here's my address if you ever want to get in touch, you won't hear from me again. That was just my approach to it.
I know that Ken, and as Tim mentioned, is my husband. It was like, wow, it was a whirlwind. There was a lot of excitement, but again, a lot of questions and the story behind it all. But the beautiful thing is, well, Kim, I will always say, you got the great end of the deal because the family was very poor and education was not something that was really sought after and had a pretty rough environment from what my husband has shared with me and probably with you.
The other thing that was interesting is I didn't talk directly with my brother. When I found out I had a brother, I reached out to you.
Yes.
We had dialog a little bit before we even approached Ken just to make sure that it wasn't going to be too upsetting because here we are at 52 years old. I'm 52, and I think Ken is nine years older than I am or so. But all of a sudden, there's a new person in the family, and they had never known that I was up for adoption or that their mom was pregnant because they were too little at that point. Then how it came about, I didn't want any bad feelings from that either. I don't think there was. I think the family was surprised that my mom had given birth that they didn't know. She never told them. That's why it was really important for me just to talk with Pat first, with you first before reaching your husband and to make sure that that would even be okay. I thought that was important too.
Yeah. It's just been a joy. You two get along just the whole family. Just to let everybody know, Tim's birth mom, my mother-in-law, died in the fall last year, so it's just been a year. But I feel knowing what I... Working with grief and working with so many people, I knew once I found out that you had been on her mind every single day of her life. Because any parent, that's what's going to happen, especially moms. It's like thinking about that child and what a gift that mom, Sheveland, got to meet you. Yeah, I think so. That you have this relationship because what a weight off of her heart, always wondering what happened with you and did you do the right thing? Because relinquishment is not something that anybody takes lightly, whatsoever that bond.
I think that they probably really struggled with it. But I'm happy with the way that things had worked out. I don't think it... I don't know. I think there should be some hoops and hurdles in finding your birth parents if that's of interest to you. But I think maybe had known maybe when I was 30 or 25 or so might be a little bit different than at the end of life because I only got to know her for a year and a half or so before she passed away or two years. But it may be nice to maybe have a little bit better long term relationship with her.
Yeah. As you talked about you were adopted into this family, your siblings were also this is like parents that really wanted to have a family and bringing in children that could use love and great home and all of that. What would you say are the gifts that you see having been one of the chosen ones?
Well, I think that my mom and dad, my adopted parents have given me, I think, a lot more opportunity in regards to education and studying and going to school and being a full citizen and I think, than if I had stayed and they were struggling. In that regard, I think Joyce made... She knew that it was the right call, not certainly easy to do, but she knew that that was right. My parents had both prayed for they wanted to adopt a native child and so it worked out great for them to have the opportunity. I feel really blessed that my parents raised me the way that they did. I told Ken and Billy when I met them, the state of Arizona is probably really happy that we didn't grow up together. I could see us getting into some big trouble as kids, that's for sure. But the family bond in the Sheveland side seems pretty strong too. So having that sense of family is good. Just the opportunity that adoption gives you, I think, is one that I'm most grateful for.
What would you say the challenges? You talked like when you were younger and you were interested in maybe getting to know a little bit more about your heritage and the cultural aspects. But what would you say are some of the challenges from being the chosen one, if there are any?
Well, I think the biggest issue was I don't look at all like my mom and dad. And my sister, she does a little bit, and then my younger brother was half black and half white. So we didn't look at all like my two white parents. And so that was always something... You get those funny looks from people and stuff like that. But as you get a little bit older, it's like, Oh, whatever, who cares? And then it was always, Well, what are you? It's the question I was asked all the time. And I would just have to look at the adoption papers that said you're Indian and Norwegian. So that's that piece.
A Norwindian.
Norwindian. I have the blue eyes of Norwegian and the hairline of Norwegian. I wish it was the other way around. So it was interesting. I don't really look like either side. I'm in the middle on both sides. I think that was probably the weirdest thing growing up is answering the question, well, what are you?
What's your heritage? Yeah, from that perspective, yeah.
But it's funny because I think Ken, Billy, and I look a lot alike in some regards. We all have mom's features, I think.
You are an image of your mother, your birthmother.
Probably the five kids, I would say, I look the most like her, that's for sure.
Absolutely. When you first sent me a picture and all of a sudden, I have a picture of her when she was young, probably in her 20s or 30s, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, they're identical. That's got to be a weird feeling too. All of a sudden, like you said, you met her and it was like looking in a mirror.
Yeah. I don't think I'd say weird. It was just like, Wow! You feel a sense, maybe a hole. You're always wondering, What does my mom look like? What is she? That was really nice to see. Even if I had never met her, I was just glad to see a picture. I think that would have been a great ending point for me too. But having met her, and that was really nice as well.
It feels like almost like it's almost like a psychological sense of belongingness when you can finally see your birth, family, and some of those similarities. I interviewed my cousin, and when she got married, she found her birth family and had eight siblings. But how she looked so much like her one sister, I remember that at the wedding, and it was just like, Wow. Because I never thought of her as adopted. I never thought of her as that. But for her, that was really important too. We did talk about in the interview with her, just the fact that there's a lot of studies coming out now in regards to the interracial and multiracial and going into families where it's a white family, Caucasian and not a person of color in this family. There's some studies out there like what does that do? The other thing that she had mentioned, which I had never thought about, was how sometimes kids will tease other kids like, Oh, you're adopted. You look like this, and you were adopted. She said it was almost like, is that a bad thing as a kid? There's a lot of different things that I don't know if any of that really occurred for you.
You have the ability to find sight. I think the goal in adoption is not that they're with somebody of the same color, but it's with someone who's going to instill certain values. I think that having a mom and dad in the house is the best way to raise kids, in my opinion. Then having my mom stayed at home all the way through high school, and so that was great as well. Then just the family values that were instilled in me, I think that's the goal. If we're having a kid being adopted more than whatever race they're with, because in the end, we should see past that.
Yeah
Focus on family, focus on education, focus on hard work, those are values, I think, any kid, no matter what background they come from, if that's where they're adopted into, is going to be successful. But I think we've done a real disservice, especially in the native community, because we've made it a priority to get kids adopted by native. I don't think sometimes that the families are that intact or in the best situation to adopt. I would rather have a kid be adopted in a place that's going to instill values and help raise a good citizen. That's the key.
I appreciate that. I really do.
The other thing I think in regards to... That was exciting is once you answer that question, Who am I? And you can talk to your mom about it. One of my earlier things I mentioned was being enrolled and so being able to talk to her about tribal stuff. She was not enrolled, but the paperwork she had on all so that we could get enrolled. I took that on to get that process going and fill out all the paperwork. I was really happy that Ken and my sister, Mary and Billy, all went down to North Carolina and enrolled. That was a really happy day for me. Then knowing that both of my kids are enrolled now too. Whatever happens from now on, my family can always say, I know where we come from. I know our family. That was really important to me.
You really brought that together because that's something... Ken and I have been married 30 years. Been together over 30 years. That was always something that he wanted that sense of belongingness there. But it was just like it was just a very difficult thing for them, and you brought it all together and made it happen as a family, which just made you super happy. But my husband is just so happy and so proud because it's his heritage. It really is that piece of his history, his mom's history, that we all important stuff. It's just finding that.
I think it was important for my brother, because he lives on the reservation, to be able to say, Hey, I have my tribal card too, instead of being the outsider a. Little bit.
Yeah, where you had to live just outside the parameter of the reservation versus on the tribal lands. Right.
Yeah.
Very important.
And being two-toned like I am, I get even in the Indian community, people are like, and I can now say, There you go. I'm really happy that I did it. I'm really happy that I did it. I'm glad for my kids and I hope that they stay up on their tribal stuff and that they enroll their kids and that's something that's passed down from the work that we did. So it's good.
Yeah, that was a beautiful thing. I know that Ken definitely is so happy to now have been enrolled in his 60s. Powerful, powerful stuff because there is that sense of belongingness there too. Yeah.
There's probably nothing that I'll ever seek out from the tribe. I mean, Jeez, I'm 55. I've done just fine for myself. There's nothing that I can gain, I think, maybe from it, but it's just that sense of belonging or that's my history. That to me is helpful. But if it helps my kids out or their kids, then that's even because they're young and getting started, that's good. But for me, it's just that belonging sense.
More than anything. Yeah, I agree. Is there anything that you would say you wish could have been different in your story? Or do you feel like this really, it all played out the way that it was supposed to play out?
I think I lightly touched on it, but I get why it's a little bit difficult because there's probably a lot that aren't interested. It shouldn't be easy for someone just to say, surprise, 40 years later, when that person has their whole life together. I'm going back and forth on that. I just got really lucky because you guys, I think, had just taken the test a couple of weeks before. That was really lucky. Maybe the DNA is the approach that is easiest for everybody. You have to volunteer to do it. If you don't, then you're not on there. That might be one thing.
I thought maybe like with ancestor or whatever they should also have an arm of some therapist available because there could be some real, like you said, with your sister or something like that, to just have someone that can help when things don't go exactly right, or it's such a shocker, or there's some family dynamics. We had ours. When the story starts unfolding, it was like, Whoa, but everybody here was just like, This is cool. We're just so happy that you're a part of it, and Emily and your family is a part of that.
I wanted to step up. That's an interesting piece because not only is it tough, I think, on the birth mom, but in my situation where there's a different dad, that it can create a lot of hardships. That was the reason I didn't reach out immediately to Joyce or Ken, because I'm sure there's some backstory there that it was better to go through you for a while until things got settled down and people were willing to reach out.
One of the things that you said that just hit me very powerfully is the goal is not about color. It's not about nationality. It's not anything. It's about instilling values. I know because I know you and Emily, and just that is something that really seems to be one of the greatest gifts your parents gave you, is really the values and being able to pay that forward with your children. You do a lot of work with schools, and coaching, and different things like that, just paying that forward. What a gift, that you may not probably wouldn't have necessarily had staying with the birth family, because we know that there was some rough stuff going on there and it wasn't bad, good or indifferent. It's just that it was a different life.
Yeah. Well, I'm not judging at all the situations that while I was adopted, that's just way it was. I'm certainly glad for Joyce. I know it probably wasn't easy, and I'm also very happy that I was adopted too.
Yeah. That's a both-and. It's a both-and. That's part of why I wanted to do this little bit of a series, is to just be available for people to hear it so that they don't, Oh, I'm not alone, or My thoughts about this, I'm not alone in that thought. But everybody has different viewpoints on this too, right? Yeah. That's the power of who we are, is to be able to look at things with different lenses. But I appreciate that you talked about going in without preconceived notions of how it's going to turn out, because that's just a healthy balance with abandonment, relinquishment, whatever. There probably is that little bit of abandonment still simmering in there. All of a sudden, if you're being like, we really don't even want to talk about it in the family, now we just really don't want to meet with you, that I think could just layer on some real angst in the person who's adopted.
If your core is good, then it won't affect you. But if you have other issues or you're having these troubles going into it, then it's probably going to affect you a lot more. But if you've got your base established on who you are and what you're doing and who your family is, then the other stuff. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. You have to be able to back away. But if you have any chinks in the armor on who you are, then I think that would probably develop those things.
Yeah, and you are. You're very solid in who you are. You have a real knowing and a real core in your values and who you are. It wasn't about necessarily the birth stuff or who you are, the solid soul within yourself is very solid, and that was nurtured. It was nurtured with your parents that raised you, and that's where I think that's the gift of adoption. I talked to my daughter-in-law, Caitlin, and did her interview earlier today, and she works in social services. I said, How many... We know that we want to try to keep... In society, you want to try to keep kids with their birth families, if at all possible. But I said, What's the ratio that you see? She said it's 50-50, because 50% of them really do need to get into a home that's safe, that's nurturing. With all the people that they work with, it's a 50% chance whether staying with the birth family is really the healthiest and in the best interest of the child. That's what we need to remember, that it is about the child. A lot of times, emotions and egos and different things like that may get into the way, politics, all of that stuff.
I think for me, it's always been about the child. Always the child first. Always first.
It's funny. I think we've made adoption too difficult. It's thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and legal fees and blah, blah, blah to adopt the kid. I have upstairs in my safe a letter or the court order. It's one page, double-spaced, about 10 or 15 sentences that says, Now for the sum of $350, my mom and dad adopt me and then signed by the judge and signed by me. That was it. There wasn't this big, long, drawn-out process. It was 350 bucks to take this kid. I think that if we have kids languishing in multiple foster situations over and over in different room, each night or different places, we've got to make adoption so much. There's so many people that want to adopt kids that just find the whole process overwhelming, and it should be a lot easier to adopt kids because the alternative is horrible.
Yeah. Every week, every day, every week, every month that goes by, it really is doing a number on that child's stability, their emotional stability, their health, all of those different things. Good intention, but if you don't have that core stability, so that's very very difficult, and we know that. What I like to ask is, what's one thing that you would just like to leave the people that are watching this with? You've given some really good thoughts to this, but what's one piece of tim wisdom that you would just like to-.
Well, I think finding your birth family or birth mom is a worthwhile endeavor, and I would encourage people that are interested to do it. However, you've got to be able to cut bait and keep fishing. So if there's any chance that you're going to upset somebody or upset the other family or cause drama or trigger somebody, it's best just to close the book and be happy with where you're at and what you've created in your life. It seems to me that the people really push, really push, and then thats those are the ones that get into situations. You have to be able to go slow. If it doesn't work or you're getting some pushback, then you fold the book and you walk away.
That's beautiful. A hard one for a lot of people. We've unfathom, but it is.It's wisdom.
Who said life is fair? That's just what it is. That's what it is. Don't create drama for other people. Just go in there. And if it works like it did with my family, it works out great. If it doesn't with like my sister, then it's something you have to be able to walk away from.
Yeah, and have a support and if you have a support of, I call it a tribe, but you have that support. I think anchoring into support before you probably even take those steps is really, really important and talk to some of these things.
That's a key piece. Your adopted parents are certainly your biggest pillars. And so... I talked to my dad. My mom had passed away but I talked to my dad quite a bit about the whole process and asked him if he was okay with this and told him the whole story all along. There was no surprises. I told him that I loved him and that this doesn't replace what you've done. It's just searching and looking for these things. He was okay with all that stuff. I would really recommend that you keep your adopted family involved in the whole process as well. Because I think truly, they would want you to feel that sense of the circle is closed. I don't think there's too many that would say, No, you're just mine. I think if a person is willing to adopt you, they want the best for you. I think that that would be something that most adopted parents would say, Yeah, just what can we do to help? My job was to fill them in on everything and making sure that they knew what was going on, that they weren't being replaced or any of that stuff.
Well, the word that's coming to me is honor. Honor- Yeah, honor your parents. -everyone who is part of this equation, this journey, and doing it with honor, honoring yourself first and foremost, but then honoring the people that are so important to you, and letting them know that this is love, and that love is not going to go away. It's a critical piece here, but it's honoring and remember to do it with honor. As a coach and a grief coach, because grief does show up in some of these places here, is find your tribe. If you don't have it in your family unit, find a couple of people that you can really talk through with this before you take the steps, and just really be able to so you can think clearly about what might this look like, and what are your expectations? Because having unfulfilled expectations can be a huge downer, and shake up the psyche a little bit. But just to... That's what I would encourage people, is reach out and find someone they can really talk to. But definitely if you can have the conversation with your family, the family that is your family.
As Caitlin said, there's not a label for love, so family is not a label. It's about the community of where we're raised, and who we're with. There's the extended, there's birth, there's all of that. But just really talk to the people that are involved and do it with honor for yourself and for them.
Yeah, honor your mother and father.
Absolutely.
One of the 10 commandments.
Core principles. Well, thank you so much, Tim. I really appreciate you. We love you. You know that.
Okay.
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