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People Driven Development
Eddie Flaisler, Morgan VanDerLeest
18 episodes
1 month ago
There are a number of ways to develop software: Test-driven, Behavior-driven, Product-driven, Customer-driven (to name a few). But once you move into engineering leadership, you're no longer dealing with software directly. It's all about People Driven Development. How do you work with people to drive this engineering product forward? How do you manage people so they feel seen, respected, emotionally safe, challenged, and empowered? How do you deliver business results and also focus relentlessly on people? Eddie and Morgan try to help their fellow engineering leaders through difficult situations where the problem isn't really technology at all.
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Management
Technology,
Business
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All content for People Driven Development is the property of Eddie Flaisler, Morgan VanDerLeest and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
There are a number of ways to develop software: Test-driven, Behavior-driven, Product-driven, Customer-driven (to name a few). But once you move into engineering leadership, you're no longer dealing with software directly. It's all about People Driven Development. How do you work with people to drive this engineering product forward? How do you manage people so they feel seen, respected, emotionally safe, challenged, and empowered? How do you deliver business results and also focus relentlessly on people? Eddie and Morgan try to help their fellow engineering leaders through difficult situations where the problem isn't really technology at all.
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Management
Technology,
Business
Episodes (18/18)
People Driven Development
MergeSort: M&As from an Engineering Standpoint

Eddie and Morgan return to discuss the intricate aspects of mergers and acquisitions (M&A) from the perspective of engineering leadership. This episode builds on their previous discussions, shifting the focus to the challenges faced by companies integrating new technology and teams. They cover motivation types for M&A, emphasizing economies of scale, industry consolidation, vertical integration, and eliminating inefficiencies. They explore the complexities of assimilating acquired technology, the importance of maintainability and extensibility, and setting up a defensible moat. From an organizational standpoint, they address potential pitfalls like the ‘us versus them’ dynamic, handling the expert archetype, and supporting team members experiencing burnout. They also discuss best practices for vetting teams and strategically planning for technology integration.

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1 month ago
51 minutes

People Driven Development
Outnumbered & Outgunned

Eddie and Morgan dive into a challenging listener's question about navigating a reverse merger opportunity amidst failing technology due diligence in a small FinTech startup.

Special guest Robin Atwood, a seasoned engineering leader at Nuro, joins to shed light on technology due diligence, touching on critical topics like security, operational resilience, and compliance. They discuss prioritization and leadership strategies to balance immediate business needs with long-term technical improvements. The episode dives deep into managing external contractors, leveraging AI, organizational alignment, and maintaining transparency with stakeholders in high-stress situations.

  • (00:00) -  Welcome and Introduction
  • (00:08) - Meet Robin Atwood: Engineering Leader at Nuro
  • (01:49) - Listener's Dilemma: FinTech Startup Struggles
  • (04:10) -  The Importance of Technology Due Diligence
  • (05:28) - Robin's Advice on Operational Resilience
  • (09:27) - Leadership and Prioritization in Startups
  • (11:57) - The Role of Compliance and Security
  • (23:09) - Collaboration and Context in Engineering
  • (32:02) -  API Frustrations and Workarounds
  • (33:22) - Empathy in Leadership
  • (33:44) - Importance of Buy-In and Alignment
  • (35:44) -  Simplifying and Prioritizing in Startups
  • (39:18) -  Operating Models and Organizational Maturity
  • (51:17) -  Managing External Help
  • (55:57) -  Handling Urgency and Stakeholder Expectations
  • (59:48) - AI in IT and Innovation
  • (01:03:20) - Conclusion and Listener Engagement
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5 months ago
1 hour 3 minutes

People Driven Development
Is That Ethical?

Morgan and Eddie delve into the complex topic of ethics in engineering leadership. They explore the four primary goals of ethical tech development: protecting people from harm, treating people fairly, enabling people to understand and challenge decisions, and safeguarding rights and freedoms. They cover frameworks such as IEEE, ACM, and IFIP's codes of ethics, biases in AI, algorithmic fairness, and practical measures like smart data retention, transparency, and accountability. The episode underscores the importance of ethical decision-making in technology and fosters a deeper understanding of how engineering leaders can navigate moral gray areas.

  • (00:00) - Introduction and Episode Overview
  • (00:30) - Listener's Ethical Dilemma
  • (02:21) - Defining Ethics in Engineering
  • (04:27) - Professional Codes of Ethics
  • (06:54) - Ethical Goals in Technology
  • (08:50) - Protecting People from Harm
  • (12:14) - Preventative Measures and Risk Assessment
  • (14:00) - Granular User Access and Auditability
  • (15:00) - Data Retention and User Experience
  • (16:40) - Fail-Safe Defaults and Bounded Autonomy
  • (19:34) - Treating People Fairly and Addressing Bias
  • (21:32) - Understanding Bias in the Workplace
  • (22:56) - The Impact of Bias on Organizational Fairness
  • (23:27) - Managing Bias as a Leader
  • (26:44) - Algorithmic Fairness: Challenges and Solutions
  • (29:16) - Tools and Frameworks for Fairness
  • (31:25) - The Importance of Transparency in AI
  • (32:44) - Enabling Users to Challenge AI Decisions
  • (40:10) - Engineering for the Greater Good
  • (40:56) - Practical Tips for Ethical Enginee
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7 months ago
45 minutes

People Driven Development
The Manager of Managers

Eddie and Morgan discuss a listener's question about managing managers in engineering. They explore various frameworks and strategies necessary for overseeing managers, touching upon crucial elements like clarity, alignment, and execution. They dig into the potential pitfalls of mismanaging through, and the importance of psychological safety, autonomy, and succession planning. With concrete examples and practical advice, this episode is essential for anyone navigating the complexities of engineering leadership.

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (00:07) -  Understanding the Role of a Manager of Managers
  • (00:41) - Listener's Question: Transitioning from IC to Senior Director
  • (01:15) - Challenges of Managing Managers
  • (01:51) -  Defensible Organizational Design
  • (02:41) -  Frontline Managers vs. Managers of Managers
  • (04:45) -  The Value of Managers of Managers
  • (05:40) - The Reality of Senior Management
  • (11:28) - Diagnosing and Coaching Managers of Managers
  • (12:12) - Clarity, Alignment, and Execution
  • (17:24) - Measuring Clarity in Management
  • (20:13) - Alignment in Management
  • (26:10) -  The Importance of a Writing Culture
  • (27:18) - Transparent Decision Logs
  • (28:17) - Standardized Release Cadence
  • (29:45) -  Execution Challenges
  • (35:18) - Managing Through: The Micromanagement Trap
  • (43:37) - Succession Planning and Using Power for Good
  • (49:27) - Final Thoughts and Listener Feedback
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7 months ago
50 minutes

People Driven Development
Managing Mistakes

Eddie and Morgan delve into a listener's question about dealing with costly mistakes at work, particularly focusing on the tension between accountability and blame within engineering teams. They analyze a real-world dilemma faced by a new director of engineering at a series B startup and extend the discussion to include learnings from the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. They discuss the difference between meta root causes of mistakes, strategies to create a risk-aware culture, and the importance of psychological safety. They also reflect on the principle of 'move fast and break things' and its relevance to different business models.

  • (00:00) -  Listener's Question: Balancing Proactiveness and Reactiveness
  • (01:34) -  Meeting the Team Where It Is
  • (02:49) -  Introduction to the Space Shuttle Columbia Disaster
  • (04:52) - Organizational Barriers and Failures
  • (07:12) -  Analyzing Public Postmortems
  • (08:08) -  Root Causes of Production Problems
  • (14:35) - Meta Root Causes and Organizational Impact
  • (19:08) - Applying Meta Root Causes to the Columbia Disaster
  • (21:00) - Relevance to Smaller Companies
  • (23:22) -  The Importance of Risk Management
  • (23:49) - Meta Root Cause: Prioritization Challenges
  • (24:53) - Psychological Safety in the Workplace
  • (25:51) - DEI Programs and Industry Trends
  • (26:43) -  Generational Differences in Work Culture
  • (29:36) - Decision-Making Frameworks
  • (30:31) - Addressing Burnout and Low Drive
  • (35:32) - Handling Mistakes and Accountability
  • (43:35) - The Role of Mistakes in Engineering Cultures
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9 months ago
45 minutes

People Driven Development
The ReOrg

In this episode, Eddie and Morgan dive into the complexities of departmental reorganizations (reorgs). They provide an overview of the motivations and emotions behind reorgs, addressing why they often evoke strong reactions among employees. They different types of reorgs, such as rightsizing and rethinking, and explore the countervailing metrics that should be tracked to ensure the effectiveness of reorgs. They also touch on broader themes like effective communication, inclusivity, and the impact of emerging AI technologies on organizational design. Learn practical strategies for managing reorgs, maintaining team morale, and aligning organizational changes with business goals.

  • (00:00) -  Intro
  • (00:22) -  Understanding Reorganizations: Definition and Emotional Impact
  • (01:13) - The Fear of Change and Its Consequences
  • (03:57) -  Transparency in Reorganizations: Pros and Cons
  • (10:19) - Techniques for Effective Reorganizations
  • (12:56) - Countervailing Metrics: Measuring the Impact of Reorgs
  • (14:11) - Types of Reorganizations: Rightsizing and Rethinking
  • (22:43) - Relocation and Mix and Match Reorgs
  • (26:13) - Diving into Neurodivergent Inclusion
  • (27:28) - Effective Communication During Change
  • (27:58) -  Handling Resistance and Skepticism
  • (29:13) - Creating Safe Spaces for Feedback
  • (30:03) -  Strategies for Organizational Reorganization
  • (31:11) - Exploring the Spotify Model
  • (32:14) - Challenges with the Matrix Model
  • (36:42) - The Role of Tiger Teams
  • (40:07) - Layoffs and Organizational Defensibility
  • (49:35) -  AI Era Organizational Design
  • (54:13) - Closing thoughts
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9 months ago
54 minutes

People Driven Development
Where's my innovation?

In this episode, Morgan and Eddie address a question from a newly appointed VP of Engineering at a Series C company who is struggling to foster innovation. The discussion explores the challenges of reinvigorating stagnant growth while maintaining current product stability. They delve into the concepts of balancing immediate business needs with future innovations, employing the Toyota Production System (TPS) pillars—Jidoka and Just-In-Time—and methods such as value stream mapping, cost of delay analysis, and Monte Carlo simulations. The episode underscores the importance of adaptable engineering cultures and data-driven decision-making to unlock the next stage of company growth.

  • (00:00) -  Introduction
  • (00:02) - The Challenge of Innovation in R&D
  • (00:33) - A VP's Dilemma: Stagnation and Experimentation
  • (01:19) - The Stakes of Innovation
  • (02:10) -  Understanding the Motivation for Innovation
  • (02:46) -  The Technology Product Lifecycle
  • (04:39) - Balancing Innovation and Operational Efficiency
  • (07:09) - The Three Horizons Framework
  • (11:21) - The Importance of Adaptability
  • (14:54) - Lessons from the Toyota Production System
  • (16:48) - Implementing Jidoka: Automation with a Human Touch
  • (24:50) -  The Role of Decision Making in Innovation
  • (29:55) - Handling Feedback and Authority
  • (32:22) - Introduction to Just-in-Time Management
  • (34:00) -  Value Stream Mapping Explained
  • (40:52) - Cost of Delay Analysis
  • (51:02) - Monte Carlo Simulations
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10 months ago
54 minutes

People Driven Development
Switching context

Eddie and Morgan discuss the challenges of productivity and time management in R&D organizations. The conversation delves into the inefficiencies caused by context switching, the value of large blocks of uninterrupted work, effective management practices, and the significance of having well-defined organization and communication norms. They introduce the concept of 'team hours' to improve productivity, and touch upon tools and approaches to minimize disruptions and maintain a focused work environment.Key points include the detrimental effects of instant messaging, the need for a consistent approach across all teams, and the potential of focused time management to enhance overall efficiency.

  • (00:00) - Introduction and Today's Topic
  • (00:51) - The AI Dilemma: Replacing Humans
  • (01:58) - Macro vs. Micro Perspectives on AI
  • (03:07) - Effective Management Strategies
  • (04:54) - Listener's Question: Engineering Team Productivity
  • (08:25) - The Cost of Context Switching
  • (16:04) - Implementing Team Hours for Focused Work
  • (20:19) -  The Importance of Team Alignment
  • (20:38) -  Challenges of Global Team Coordination
  • (22:09) - The Debate on No Meetings Day
  • (23:52) - Instant Messaging: A Double-Edged Sword
  • (26:07) -  Effective Communication Strategies
  • (31:30) -  Managing Channels and Reducing FOMO
  • (36:52) -  Technical Aspects and Tooling
  • (39:09) - Conclusion and Listener Engagement
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11 months ago
39 minutes

People Driven Development
Systemic Imposter Syndrome

Morgan and Eddie focus on the topic of imposter syndrome in engineering organizations. The discussion centers on the impact of imposter syndrome and associated mindsets—perfectionists, superheroes, natural geniuses, and experts—on team dynamics and productivity. They examine the organizational roles in fostering or mitigating imposter syndrome, including the importance of structured onboarding, inclusive communication, and user-friendly code practices. Additionally, Eddie highlights the crucial need for supporting neurodivergent individuals in the workplace. The conversation aims to provide practical insights and solutions for engineering leaders to foster healthier, more supportive environments.

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (00:08) - Grace Hopper Celebration and Listener's Question
  • (01:55) - Understanding Imposter Syndrome
  • (05:12) - Exploring Imposter Syndrome Archetypes
  • (22:19) - The Role of Organizations in Imposter Syndrome
  • (30:18) - Addressing Systemic Causes and Solutions
  • (34:09) - Neurodivergence and Workplace Inclusion
  • (38:29) - Conclusion and Call to Action
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1 year ago
39 minutes

People Driven Development
The Productivity Paranoia

Eddie and Morgan are joined by guest Erin Doyle, a staff software engineer at Lob. Together, they delve into developer productivity, exploring the balance between developer experience and organizational efficiency. They discuss challenges like cognitive overload, psychological safety, and the pitfalls of productivity metrics. The conversation highlights practical steps for fostering a productive engineering environment, focusing on key concepts such as Shift Left, developer joy, and the importance of clear ownership in tackling tech debt.

  • (00:00) - Introduciton
  • (01:23) - Understanding Developer Productivity
  • (02:27) - Challenges in Developer Productivity
  • (08:05) - The Impact of Metrics on Productivity
  • (12:21) - Developer Joy and Its Importance
  • (24:12) - Ownership and Responsibility in Developer Productivity
  • (33:21) - The Importance of Context in Metrics
  • (35:20) - Psychological Safety and Team Performance
  • (37:50) - The Pitfalls of Productivity Metrics
  • (39:19) - Building Trust
  • (49:47) - Organizational Design for Productivity
  • (58:59) - Addressing Technical Debt
  • (01:04:27) - Final Thoughts on Developer Productivity
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1 year ago
1 hour 8 minutes

People Driven Development
Unit Economics is a thing

Morgan and Eddie explore the often-taboo topic of money in engineering organizations by tackling listener questions about explaining layoffs and budget cuts to a team. They break down how SaaS businesses operate, the factors influencing engineering budgets, and practical strategies for managing finances as an engineering leader.

  • (00:00) - Introduction and Listener's Dilemma
  • (01:13) - Understanding Corporate Finance
  • (01:48) - Challenges of Discussing Money
  • (02:50) - SaaS Finance 101
  • (04:36) - Financial Decision Making in Tech
  • (08:59) - Engineering Budget Scrutiny
  • (17:39) - Overhiring and Layoffs in Tech
  • (21:07) - Strategies for Managing Budget Cuts
  • (25:42) - Alignment of Values in Leadership
  • (27:47) - Defensible Organizational Design
  • (31:56) - Investment Allocation Strategies
  • (33:28) - Build vs. Buy Decisions
  • (35:34) - Importance of Fundamentals in Engineering
  • (39:31) - Cost Consciousness and Budget Management
  • (43:52) - Communicating Budget Changes to the Team
  • (47:52) - Final Thoughts and Feedback
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1 year ago
50 minutes

People Driven Development
People analytics

In this episode, Morgan and Eddie pivot from their usual Q&A format to discuss the crucial topic of individual performance assessment, particularly timely during mid-year reviews. They explore the complexities introduced by recent economic shifts, the significant role of perceived performance in career trajectory, and the challenges in achieving fairness and transparency. Key discussion points include the impact of luck on performance, how to consider proper sample sizes, providing actionable feedback, and the importance of regular, transparent communication. They also dive into practical solutions like separating reward and punishment from the performance cycle, fostering a team composition strategy, and considering the 'how' as much as the 'what' in evaluations. Finally, they offer strategies for just-in-time performance review preparations.

  • (00:00) - The Importance of Performance Assessment
  • (01:00) - Challenges of Performance Conversations
  • (03:15) - The Role of Luck in Performance
  • (07:31) - The Importance of Sample Size in Evaluations
  • (11:00) - Feedback and Its Pitfalls
  • (13:53) - Effective Performance Management Strategies
  • (21:26) - Consistency and Avoiding Bias in Evaluations
  • (26:56) - Growth Opportunities and Mitigating Failure
  • (27:35) - Challenges with Staff Plus Roles
  • (28:22) - Promotion Transparency and Organizational Honesty
  • (30:27) - Role-Based Staff Plus Jobs
  • (36:33) - Performance Calibration and Engineering Personas
  • (41:41) - Addressing Tech Debt and Engineering Efficiency
  • (44:13) - Strategies for Performance Evaluation Season
  • (50:55) - The Importance of Transparency and Trust
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1 year ago
54 minutes

People Driven Development
Breaking silos

Morgan and Eddie address a listener's concern about navigating silos in a rapidly growing engineering team. They discuss how silos form, their impact on productivity, and various strategies to break them down, such as encouraging a culture of shared responsibility, emphasizing succession planning, and proactive knowledge transfer to mitigate silo formation and promote long-term team health. They also explore the potential benefits and drawbacks of having silos and emphasize the importance of alignment and organizational design in promoting efficient knowledge sharing and team productivity.

Topics discussed:

  • Understanding silos in organizations
  • The human element of silos
  • When silos might be beneficial
  • Breaking the addiction to low-hanging fruit
  • The role of leadership in managing silos
  • Practical steps to break silos
  • Knowledge sharing and team dynamics
  • Handling too many nodes in communication
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1 year ago
37 minutes

People Driven Development
How predictable can software engineering be?

In this episode, Morgan and Eddie respond to a listener who is struggling to deliver an AI-based internal product for customer support on time. The discussion covers potential reasons for project delays, with a focus on local and global issues affecting predictability. They provide insights on proper effort estimation, managing expectations, the importance of psychological safety, and key metrics such as cycle time and cycle time variance to understand bottlenecks. They also emphasize the value of collaborative work, adaptable processes, and effective communication to improve project outcomes.


  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (00:56) - Understanding the Predictability Problem
  • (01:28) - Local Issues Affecting Predictability
  • (10:18) - Global Issues and Organizational Challenges
  • (16:31) - Strategies for Improving Predictability
  • (33:27) - Final Advice for Listener
  • (36:41) - Conclusion
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1 year ago
36 minutes

People Driven Development
Valuation of Values

In this episode, Eddie and Morgan discuss the significance and impact of company values, focusing on how to ensure they are effectively implemented and upheld within an organization. They explore the importance of aligning values with actions, integrating them into decision-making processes, and addressing potential pitfalls like value weaponization.

Topics covered:

  • The purpose of company values
  • Bridging the gap between values and actions
  • Integrating values into decision-making
  • Building systems that support values
  • The role of transparency in value implementation
  • Measuring the effectiveness of values
  • Preventing value weaponization
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1 year ago
36 minutes

People Driven Development
Creating owners

In this episode, Eddie and Morgan explore the topic of creating ownership within teams and organizations. They discuss what it means to be an owner, how to create an environment where people feel empowered to take ownership, and the benefits of having a culture of ownership.


Topics covered:

  • What does it mean to be an owner
  • How to create an environment where people feel empowered to take ownership
  • Benefits of having a culture of ownership
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1 year ago
42 minutes

People Driven Development
What's an effective manager?

In this episode, Eddie and Morgan discuss the question of what makes an effective manager. They delve into the key competencies and attributes that effective managers possess, and explore how these competencies can be developed and improved over time.

Topics covered:

  • The key competencies and attributes of effective managers
  • How to develop and improve managerial competencies
  • The importance of communication, feedback, and introspection in effective management
  • The role of managers in hiring, developing talent, and resolving conflict
  • How to measure and evaluate managerial effectiveness

Links:

  • Dare to Lead - Brené Brown
  • Cultural Innovation - Kevin Oaks
  • Team Topologies - Matthew Skelton and Manuel Pais
  • Engineering Management for the Rest of Us - Sarah Drasner
  • The Effective Manager (2nd Edition) - Mark Horstman, Kate Braun, and Sarah Sentes
  • The Coaching Habit - Michael Bungay Stanier
  • The Advice Trap - Michael Bungay Stanier
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1 year ago
38 minutes

People Driven Development
Who needs managers anyway?

In this episode, Eddie and Morgan discuss the question of whether or not engineering organizations can run effectively without any managers. They delve into the underlying reasons why a CEO might ask this question, and explore the key attributes of a team and system that will succeed with varying levels of involvement of managers.


Topics covered:

  • The possible reasons why a CEO might want to eliminate managers
  • The key attributes of teams and systems that can succeed with limited involvement of managers
  • The value of frontline managers, middle management, and senior leadership
  • The importance of context and communication in engineering organizations
  • The role of managers in hiring, developing talent, and resolving conflict

Links:

  • Nonviolent Communication - Marshall B. Rosenberg
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1 year ago
36 minutes

People Driven Development
There are a number of ways to develop software: Test-driven, Behavior-driven, Product-driven, Customer-driven (to name a few). But once you move into engineering leadership, you're no longer dealing with software directly. It's all about People Driven Development. How do you work with people to drive this engineering product forward? How do you manage people so they feel seen, respected, emotionally safe, challenged, and empowered? How do you deliver business results and also focus relentlessly on people? Eddie and Morgan try to help their fellow engineering leaders through difficult situations where the problem isn't really technology at all.