🌍 How can we align our lives — and our societies — with our body clocks?
Poor sleep and circadian misalignment don’t just make us tired — they impair several aspects of our metabolic health. I sat down with Jonathan Cedernaes, M.D., Ph.D., and explored what we can do about it: from personal daily habits to systemic policy reforms. Sleep quality and quantity isn’t just about recovery — it’s a public health issue.
We dive deep into:
✅ Daily habits that keep your circadian rhythm aligned
✅ Why sleep timing is as important as sleep duration
✅ How late nights and irregular schedules impair metabolism and long-term health
✅ Policy changes that could protect circadian health at a population level — from school start times to shift work regulations
✅ The promise of circadian science for future treatments and prevention strategies
💡 What do you think matters more for our collective health: better personal habits or policy reforms?
#SleepScience #CircadianHealth #Metabolism #PublicHealth
Sleep science group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/495466987134152/
Connect with Jonathan on social media:
X: https://x.com/jcedernaes
IG: https://www.instagram.com/sleepydrcedernaesclocks/
Episode chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:05 Sleep as a Driver of Motivation and Healthy Habits
00:04:15 Weekend Catch-Up Sleep: Benefits and Limits
00:07:50 Sleep, Metabolic Health, and Obesity Links
00:10:13 Sleep Disruption and Neurodegenerative Disease
00:12:53 Mechanisms: How Neurodegeneration Impairs Sleep
00:18:30 Supplements, Exam Stress, and Slow-Wave Sleep
00:20:01 The Body's Master Clock in the Brain: The Suprachiasmatic Nucleus
00:23:20 Light, Retina, and the Body’s Internal Timekeeping
00:43:16 Late-Night Eating and Sleep Quality
00:46:00 Heart Rate Variability: What It Really Tells Us
00:52:10 Short Sleepers, Long Sleepers, and Individual Needs
01:05:22 Circadian Misalignment: Jet Lag and Shift Work
01:19:44 Sleep and Mental Health Connection
01:33:11 Diet Timing, Fasting, and Circadian Rhythm
01:43:52 Exercise After Sleep Loss: Helpful or Harmful?
01:56:20 MicroRNAs, Sleep Loss, and Neurodegeneration Risk
02:14:36 AI, Research, and Sleep Science in the Future
02:22:06 Summary of most important takeaways from the conversation
Most of us think of different types of cholesterol as either “good” or “bad.” But the reality is more complex.
Daniel Elías-López, Endocrinologist, Ph.D, is a Mexican endocrinologist and researcher whose work spans both clinical care and public health. After years of treating patients with obesity, diabetes, and lipid disorders, he saw a limit to what could be achieved in the clinic alone. That realization led him toward research—with work aimed at generating knowledge that could inform prevention and treatment strategies for millions.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Why LDL is only part of the picture
- How elevated cholesterol can remain asymptomatic for years, and why early measurement is important for timely risk detection
- Practical, evidence-based strategies that can help lower risk for cardiovascular events
Rather than claiming to have all the answers, Dr. Daniel Elías-López shares his insights from clinical experience and research —highlighting what’s known, what’s emerging, and why prevention matters.
You can connect with Dr. Daniel Elías-López on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danieleliasl/ and listen to his podcast in Spanish: https://open.spotify.com/show/31RDgmiIWXQHyHNjgBxeNe?si=6bdf7f42589f4af6
Episode chapters:
00:00:00 - Why lipoproteins are essential for human health
00:07:14 - Research motivation behind studying cholesterol particles
00:14:53 - How lipoprotein particle size affects heart risk
00:22:00 - The main types of cholesterol in the body
00:29:40 - Understanding non-HDL cholesterol and health impacts
00:36:50 - Genetics and their influence on lipid metabolism
00:44:02 - Strategies to improve current cholesterol guidelines
00:51:41 - How cholesterol knowledge translates to clinical practice
00:58:49 - Fasting versus non-fasting lipid blood testing
01:06:29 - What cholesterol levels really tell about health
01:13:40 - Additional lipid markers for cardiovascular assessment
01:20:55 - Current debates in cholesterol research and policy
01:28:30 - Impact of diet on lipid profile and heart health
01:36:10 - Future directions in lipid research and prevention
01:43:55 - Key takeaways and summary of cholesterol insights
Parkinson’s disease is now the fastest-growing neurological disorder in the world — and according to Dr. Ray Dorsey, it’s not just about aging or genetics.
Dr. Dorsey argues that environmental toxins — including certain pesticides, industrial chemicals, and air pollutants — are significant, modifiable risk factors for developing Parkinson’s disease. In this podcast episode, we discuss:
🔬 The evidence linking environmental toxins to Parkinson’s disease
💡 What individuals can do today to reduce their exposure to environmental toxins that research has shown are associated with increased risk for developing Parkinson's disease
🏛 The public health policy changes Dr. Dorsey advocates to address the rapid rise of Parkinson’s disease in today’s society.
Dr. Dorsey's book "The Parkinson's Plan": https://www.amazon.com/Parkinsons-Plan-Path-Prevention-Treatment/dp/1541705386
Episode chapters:
00:00:00 Episode highlight reel
00:02:11 Introducing Dr. Ray Dorsey, Parkinson’s Disease Researcher
00:04:43 Evidence Linking Long-Term Exposure to Trichloroethylene to Neurological Decline
00:08:10 Environmental Contributions to Parkinson’s Beyond Genetics
00:12:37 Communicating Risks Without Overstating the Evidence
00:16:47 Historical Use and Persistence of Paraquat in Agriculture
00:19:20 Testing Options for Potential Parkinson’s-Related Risk Factors
00:21:48 Why Parkinson’s Risk Reduction Remains a Global Challenge
00:24:51 Practical Measures to Limit Environmental Neurotoxins
00:30:40 The Role of Policy in Reducing Harm
00:33:05 How Public Awareness Can Drive Change in Exposure
Louise Hecker, PhD, is a scientist of the cellular mechanisms of aging, such as oxidative stress and endogenous antioxidant enzymes in lung tissue and how such mechanisms influence development of fibrotic lung tissue. During the early phases of this study on the effects of psilocbin on aging in human cells and mice, she was an Associate Professor at Emory University, whereas toward the final data analysis and manuscript preparation, she held the same position at Baylor College of Medicine.The study discussed in this episode investigated psilocybin’s ability to prolong cellular lifespan and reduce oxidative stress in human fibroblasts, and it reported that higher doses extended cellular lifespan dose-dependently by up to 57 %. In aged mice, monthly psilocybin dosing markedly improved survival and even restored fur color and hair growth. Both the cell study and the mouse study suggest that psilocybin targets multiple hallmarks of aging, possibly even reversing some age-related processes.The study, "Psilocybin treatment extends cellular lifespan and improves survival of aged mice": https://www.nature.com/articles/s41514-025-00244-xYou can connect with Dr. Hecker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louise-hecker-69ba1915/ and on X: https://x.com/heckerlouise.Episode chapters:00:00:00 Can psilocybin slow cellular aging?
00:03:29 Introducing aging researcher Dr. Louise Hecker
00:08:24 The psilocybin-telomere hypothesis explained
00:10:18 What telomeres are & why they shorten with age
00:17:14 Psilocybin makes old cells "behave" like young cells
00:23:23 Regulatory hurdles of psilocybin research
00:25:54 Checking cancer risk & cell division results
00:30:12 Measuring life extension in cells
00:36:34 Scar tissue, fibroblasts & aging
00:42:25 When to start treatment & dosing of psilocybin for maximum anti-aging effects?
00:46:38 Designing the psilocybin mouse study
00:57:28 Mice live longer & look younger after monthly psilocybin dosing
01:07:44 Unanswered questions & follow-up studies
01:27:44 Implications for chronic diseases
In this episode, neurologist Dr. Alberto Espay shares a bold new vision for treating Alzheimer's—beyond plaques and toward personalized care. We discuss limitations of current drug strategies and the potential of the Cincinnati Cohort Biomarker Program to individualize treatments for patients with neurodegenerative disease.
Find his book Brain Fables here: https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Fables-Neurodegenerative-Diseases-Blueprint/dp/1108744621
References:
#1: β-Amyloid accumulation in the human brain after onenight of sleep deprivation: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29632177/
Episode chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction & Dr. Espay's Neurology Speciality
00:01:05 Cincinnati Cohort Biomarker Program (CCBP) Goal
00:02:04 Placeholder Diagnoses: How we Choose Clinical Labels for Diagnoses
00:05:28 Precision Medicine Goal: Individualized Diagnostics and Treatments
00:08:27 Dr. Espay's Critique of the Amyloid Hypothesis
00:11:42 Lecanemab: Validation of the Amyloid Hypothesis?
00:13:56 On the Toxicity of Amyloid Plaques
00:18:05 Monoclonal Antibody Issues: ARIA, Swelling & Bleeding
00:20:18 Data Presentation vs Manipulation: Relative vs. Absolute Risk Reduction
00:27:52 Interpreting Research Data: Sleep Deprivation & Amyloid Example
00:30:23 Amyloid Structure and Toxicity
00:32:27 Preclinical Anti-Amyloid Trials (4 Studies)
00:36:40 CCBP: A Precision Medicine Research Programme
00:39:06 Developing Divergent & Therapy-Linked Biomarkers
00:43:02 Focus on Biological Subtypes, Not Clinical Diagnoses
00:48:03 CCBP as Exploratory Research: A 'Fishing Expedition'
00:50:50 Identifying Outliers (Uric Acid Example)
00:54:28 Skepticism in Medical Research
00:55:40 About the Book 'Brain Fables'
Richard E. Cytowic, M.D., is a neurologist and author renowned for revitalizing the scientific study of synesthesia. His influential works, such as "Synesthesia: A Union of the Senses" and "The Man Who Tasted Shapes," have significantly contributed to our understanding of this perceptual phenomenon.
His latest book, "Your Stone Age Brain in the Screen Age: Coping with Digital Distraction and Sensory Overload", explains how our relatively unchanged Stone Age brains struggle to adapt to the rapid advancements of the digital era. From this conversation, you can expect insights into the effects of excessive screen exposure and phone use on the brain and the mind, as well as methods for intentful phone use.
The book: Your Stone Age Brain in the Screen Age: https://www.amazon.com/Your-Stone-Age-Brain-Screen/dp/0262049007
Richard's website: https://cytowic.net/
00:00 - Introduction by Richard Cytowic on Screens and the Brain.
01:06 - The reel scroll social media feature is likened to a slot machine, exploiting our reward system.
04:32 - Unlike eating, screens offer no natural cue to cease engagement
08:34 - Screens Distractions in Everyday Situations and Public Spaces.
14:50 - Negative Impact of Screens On Young People, Including Social Isolation.
18:50 - Parental Screen Use to Pacify Children May Cause Developmental Issues?
27:50 - Passive Screen Use VS Active Engagement in Learning Material for Developing Skills and Knowledge?
35:50 - Brain Regions Involved in Phone Use.
43:86 - Attention Problems and Reduced Socializing as a Result Of Excessive Screen Time.
52:30 - Awareness of the Problem is the First Step to Managing Screen Dependence.
01:04 - Excessive Screen Use Decreases Empathy?
01:12 - Invasive Advertising on Public Screens Forces Visual Attentional Shifts?
01:19 - Our Brains Are Evolved in a Stone Age Environment and Struggle with Today's Stimuli.
01:32 - The Value of Silence in a World of Constant Stimulation.
01:39 - Taking Walks Without a Phone to Enhance Creativity.
Ilya Bragin, M.D., is a double board-certified Neurologist and Interventional Pain Specialist focused on expanding neurological care and brain longevity. He specializes in stroke care, telemedicine, and neurodegenerative diseases.
Connect with Ilya on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilya-bragin-b8698b49/
Episode chapters:
00:00 - Introduction & Definition of Telemedicine
03:36 - Important Factors for Effective Telemedicine & Suitable Specialties
06:45 - The Concept of Certified Examination Assistants in Telemedicine
14:53 - Who Can Become a Certified Examination Assistant?
17:42 - AI and Computer Vision in Telemedicine
20:49 - Cost Aspects of Training Examination Assistants
34:12 - Home Monitoring and Wearable Technology for Early Detection and Prevention of Diseases
39:47 - Telemedicine in Underserved Areas
41:41 - Impact of the COVID-19 Pandemic on Telemedicine
50:43 - Telemedicine in Stroke Care
56:26 - Other Neurological Conditions and Telemedicine
01:07:25 - Distance-Based Preventive Medicine
In this conversation, I speak with Matthew Wall, PhD, about the effects of psilocybin and other classic psychedelics on the human brain.
Matthew Wall is a psychologist specializing in psychedelics and functional MRI (fMRI) neuroimaging. He earned his PhD in Cognitive and Brain Sciences from the University of Cambridge. Currently, he leads MRI Applications at Perceptive London and serves as an Honorary Senior Lecturer at Imperial College London.
Learn more about Matthew Wall's work: https://profiles.imperial.ac.uk/matthew.wall
Episode chapters:
00:00:00 Defining "Classic" Psychedelics: Psilocybin, LSD, DMT, and Mescaline
00:02:47 How Matthew Wall Got Involved in Psychedelic Research and His Motivations
00:09:00 Effectiveness of Psilocybin for Treatment-Resistant Depression
00:16:40 Insights from Larger Clinical Trials on Psilocybin's Effect on Depressive Symptoms
00:22:32 Comparing the Acute and Sustained Effects of Psychedelics vs. SSRIs for Depression
00:32:12 Understanding fMRI, Resting State Functional Connectivity (RSFC), and Arterial Spin Labeling
00:39:59 The Acute Effects of Classic Psychedelics on Global and Modular Brain Network Integration
00:47:57 Potential Risks, the Importance of Psychotherapy in Psychedelic Treatment, and Reopening Critical Learning Periods
01:07:48 Effects of Psychedelics on the Default Mode Network (DMN) and Other Key Brain Areas Like the Amygdala
01:33:36 Long-Term Effects of Psilocybin on Personality and The Future of Psychedelic Therapy
Dag Sehlin, PhD, is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology at Uppsala University. His research focuses on Alzheimer’s disease, developing therapeutic and diagnostic tools, including engineered antibodies targeting amyloid-beta
Dag has played an important role in the research behind the development of Lecanemab, an amyloid-beta antibody recently approved for Alzheimer's treatment by both the FDA in the U.S. and the EMA in Europe.
Episode timestamps:
00:00 - Guest Introduction: Dag Sehlin, Associate Professor of Neurobiology
03:25 - Progression of Alzheimer's Disease in the Brain
05:48 - Comorbidities and Challenges in Diagnosing Alzheimer's
12:54 - Tau and Amyloid Beta Markers in Cerebrospinal Fluid
17:00 - Future Potential of Blood Tau for Early Alzheimer's Detection
24:01 - FDA & EMA Approval of Lecanemab for Alzheimer's Treatment
25:27 - Lecanemab: First Disease-Modifying Alzheimer's Treatment
35:23 - Clinical Benefits of Lecanemab Beyond Cognitive Function (Quality of Life, Hospitalization Rates and More)
58:39 - Dose-Dependent Side Effects and Future Improvements
01:00:54 - Transferrin Receptor "Trojan Horse" Mechanism for Blood-Brain Barrier Penetration
01:15:16 - Neuroinflammation: Beneficial vs. Harmful Effects and Possible Solutions
01:39:37 - AI and Brain Imaging: Enhancing Precision
01:42:04 - Enhancing Collaboration Between Academia and Big Pharma Companies
Dr. Mathieu Nedelec, who holds a PhD in sports science, is a researcher specializing in recovery and sleep at the French Institute of Sport (INSEP). His primary research focuses on fatigue, recovery, and evidence-based recovery strategies such as sleep, cold water immersion, and nutrition. He also offers sports science support to elite athletes across various disciplines.
Link to Mathieu's book (available in French).
Episode chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:25 Why Recovery from Exercise is Important
02:10 Ways to Measure Recovery Including Heart Rate Variability (HRV)
06:02 Consumer Devices and Apps for Sleep Tracking
08:48 How Mathieu Measures Sleep in Elite Athletes
21:00 The Recovery Pyramid: A Hierarchy of Recovery Strategies: Sleep, Nutrition, and Cold Water Immersion as the Foundation
26:30 Key evidence-based nutritional strategies for enhancing recovery: Tryptophan, Gut Microbiome, High Glycemic Index Foods
38:40 Personality Traits and Sleep in Athletes - Neuroticism, Conscientiousness, and Sleep Quality
44:42 How to Use Cold Water Immersion to Enhance Recovery from Exercise
In this episode, I talk with Gabriel Baldanzi, PhD, M.D., and Koen Dekkers, Research Assistant, who work in the same research group at Uppsala University. They are both actively researching the role of the gut microbiome in human health and chronic disease.
Studies discussed in this episode:
Episode chapters:
00:00 Introduction to the episode and guest researchers, discussing the role of the gut microbiome in chronic diseases.
06:00 Overview of how bacteria in the gut impact health, immune response, and metabolism.
09:24 Methods used in the study, focusing on shotgun metagenomics and its advantages.
10:01 The relationship between gut microbiota-derived metabolites like TMAO and cardiovascular risk.
12:11 Explanation of metagenomics methods used in the study to measure gut microbiome.
18:09 Overview of the study’s large sample size and its unique approach.
20:44 Health Implications of Butyrate
21:37 Fiber’s Role in Butyrate Production
23:32 Diet and Gut Microbiome Diversity
27:18 Fiber Intake and Gut Health
30:19 Alpha Diversity in the Gut Microbiome
37:05 Microbiome Diversity and Type 2 Diabetes
44:00 Future of Microbiome Sampling Techniques: Capsule Innovations
45:04 Exploring Rare and Uncatalogued Species
47:02 The Role of AI in Gut Microbiome Research
50:00 Selecting Metabolites for Research Focus & Gutsy Atlas
01:00:11 Coffee Metabolites and Their Variance
01:00:40 Interpreting Associations between Coffee Metabolites and Gut Microbiota Variety and Specific Species
01:06:27 Streptococcus salivarius and Coffee Metabolites
01:10:31 Plasma Nucleotides and Gut Microbiome
01:12:12 Physical Activity and Gut Microbiome Diversity
01:14:55 Dietary Fiber and Gut Microbiome Diversity
01:15:53 Physical Activity and Its Impact on Gut Health
01:16:46 Physical Activity, Adiposity, and Microbiome Diversity
01:19:25:12 Genetic Predisposition and Physical Activity Effects
01:22:14 Gut Microbiota and Exercise Enjoyment
01:22:55 Gut-Brain Axis and Exercise
01:23:43 Lactate-consuming Bacteria in Marathon Runners
01:25:23 Gut Microbiota and Physical Activity Habits
01:25:51 Sedentary Behavior and GABA-producing E. coli Abundance
01:27:36 Gut Microbiota’s Effect on Behavior
01:28:40 Vagus Nerve and Gut Microbiota Influence
01:30:07 Fecal Transplants and Mood Enhancement
01:32:47 Colonization Resistance and Probiotics, The Long-Term Effects of Supplementing Gut Bacteria
01:37:28 Factors Influencing Probiotic Retention
01:38:47 Risks of Probiotics Competing with Native Species
01:43:36 What Diet is Best for Promoting a Healthy Gut Microbiome
01:45:30 Obstructive Sleep Apnea and the Gut Microbiome
01:47:58 Hypoxia and its Impact on the Gut Microbiome, Including by Altering Lactate and Propionate Metabolism
02:00:07 Cognitive Performance and the Gut Microbiome
02:00:31 Upcoming Large Microbiome Studies
02:01:08 Preliminary Findings in Microbiome and Cognition
02:06:45 Current Microbiome Tests for Consumers on the Commercial Market
02:10:50 Antibiotic Use and Its Long-Term Effects on the Microbiome
02:13:22 Conclusion and Thanks
Please beware of the risks of exposing your skin to sunlight in general and UVA light in particular. A large body of evidence suggests that UVA light exposure on the skin can increase risk for various skin cancers. This podcast episode is not intended as a recommendation to increase your personal amount of time spent in the sun. The decision of how much sunlight to expose your skin to is yours to make. This podcast episode is intended to raise awareness of only some of the effects of UVA in order to help you make that decision an informed decision. So, in the name of increasing awareness of all of the effects of sunlight on human health, please take into consideration not only the potential positive psychological effects that were mentioned in this episode, but also some established harmful somatic effects of UVA light:
https://www.skincancer.org/risk-factors/uv-radiation/
Study link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC113771/
Study reference: Gambichler T, et al. Impact of UVA exposure on psychological parameters and circulating serotonin and melatonin.
BMC Dermatol. 2002 Apr 12;2:6. doi: 10.1186/1471-5945-2-6. PMID: 11952999; PMCID: PMC113771.
Study link: https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/16/5859
Study reference:
Nunes, J.P., et al.
Placing Greater Torque at Shorter or Longer Muscle Lengths? Effects of Cable vs. Barbell Preacher Curl Training on Muscular Strength and Hypertrophy in Young Adults.
Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2020, 17, 5859.
https://doi.org/10.3390/ijerph17165859
Study link: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/sports-and-active-living/articles/10.3389/fspor.2021.659990
Study reference:
Chauvineau Maxime , et al.
Effect of the Depth of Cold Water Immersion on Sleep Architecture and Recovery Among Well-Trained Male Endurance Runners
Frontiers in Sports and Active Living. Volume 3. 2021. https://doi.org/10.3389/fspor.2021.659990
Related episodes from the Exploring Health and Medicine podcast:
Per Hall is a professor at the Department of Medical Epidemiology and Biostatistics at Karolinska Institute in Stockholm. He is also a senior physician at Södersjukhuset.
His breast cancer research is focused on prevention and early detection.
Timestamps:
00:00 Why breast cancer prevention is important
01:35 Breast Cancer Statistics in Sweden and Worldwide
03:01 Breast Cancer in Males and Age-Related Incidence
05:17 Breast Cancer Screening Programs
07:20 Risk-Based Screening vs. Age-Based Screening
12:21 AI and Machine Learning in Breast Cancer Detection
22:36 Contrast-Enhanced Mammography
29:30 Tamoxifen and Endoxifen for Breast Cancer Prevention
31:07 Tamoxifen's Side Effects and Patient Compliance
31:55 Testing Lower Doses of Tamoxifen
33:27 Endoxifen: A Promising Alternative
34:55 Study Results and Side Effects
37:34 Future Screening Programs and Endoxifen
41:27 Modifiable Risk Factors for Breast Cancer
53:39 Self-Examination and Screening Importance
57:48 How to Properly Self-Examine Your Breasts
Practical takeaways from the study are summarized at the beginning of the episode (00:00 - 04:30).
Study link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1087079224000194 Study reference: Guillaume Chevance, et al.
A systematic review of ambient heat and sleep in a warming climate,
Sleep Medicine Reviews, Volume 75, 2024, 101915, ISSN 1087-0792, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.smrv.2024.101915.
Lena Flyckt is an associate professor at the Department of Clinical Neuroscience at Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm, Sweden.
She is recognized for her research in psychiatry, including on schizophrenia and the effects of the condition on caregivers surrounding the patient.
Lena also has more than 30 years of experience working clinically as a psychiatrist, including with many people who have schizophrenia.
Christian Benedict, PhD, is a sleep researcher at Uppsala University in Sweden.
He is known for his ability to communicate the importance of sleep in both academic and public settings, advocating for sleep as a key factor in maintaining health and productivity.
Follow Christian on InstaGram: https://www.instagram.com/sleep_advocate/
Buy Christians book (Swedish version): https://www.bokus.com/bok/9789178876402/sov-dig-till-ett-battre-liv-vad-andning-sex-melatonin-tyngdtacke-fullmane-och-kiwi-kan-gora-for-din-somn/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaZwBdKTFb1SZhUgw7jfrZvADGzF67tcfJqQJVDi5b6OOXr8xt3Nv-dMLac_aem_ef109znbPXFYsN2nMw8UYQ
Jonathan Cedernaes, et al.
Neurobiology of Learning and Memory,
Volume 131, 2016, Pages 87-94, ISSN 1074-7427,
Study reference: Mehl MR, Vazire S, Holleran SE, Clark CS. Eavesdropping on happiness: well-being is related to having less small talk and more substantive conversations. Psychol Sci. 2010 Apr;21(4):539-41. doi: 10.1177/0956797610362675. Epub 2010 Feb 18. PMID: 20424097; PMCID: PMC2861779.
