*Note: This episode is about my goal to reduce the tension between those who stay in the Church and those who leave** My friend Andy Newman (married father of three, Ex-Mormon, therapist, LGBTQ ally, bridge builder) joins for a series of episodes. In this episode, Andy talks about “the shame train” during his youth including: *Porn, substance use, and working with his church leaders * Shame around the “addiction label”, restrictions (temple trips), and falsely seeing himself as a “terrible addict” * How porn/substance use was more about self-medicating from the shame and trauma than a desire to displease God * How his worth become dependent on church leaders * All the people who helped him along the way Andy then talks about his road to be an LGBTQ ally: * Started in high school in Iowa with proximity to queer people * Felt he had to choose the Church over queer people * Powerful post-mission experience giving a blessing to a queer student at BYU-I * Fully taking on the ally role following the pulse nightclub shooting * Staying in the church as an ally * What led him to eventually leave the Church Andy also talks about why he isn’t trying to get other people to leave the Church—but trying to build bridges of understanding. In the next episode, will talk about his mixed-faith marriage (Andy’s wife is active LDS) and how they have a beautiful/supportive marriage—including Andy attending church. Thank you, my friend Andy, for being on the podcast and your great heart and clinical skills to help heal others and bring us together as the same human family. You are a good man and friend. Links: Psychology today: www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/andy-newman-gilbert-az/974441 IG: www.instagram.com/andynewmanlpc/ TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@deconstruction_therapy

My friend Suzie Greco—a survivor of child sex abuse and domestic abuse, a Latter-day Saint, a Harvard Divinity School graduate (Master's in Theology), a doctrinal candidate, and an advocate in numerous organizations working to end abuse—joins us to share her powerful story and discuss her new book, The Stone Sphere. In this must-listen-to podcast, Suzie shares: The meaning behind the title and image on the front cover of the book. Untrained Ministry and Institutional Harm, including both positive and negative experiences with her Stake President, David F. Hollard—who gave Suzie permission to include his name and their experiences in the book. A Transformative Theology of Forgiveness—a much healthier framework for healing. Pathways to Healing, Redemption, and Spiritual Transcendence, the golden thread of the book. It's hard to overstate the power and importance of this conversation. Suzie is doing breakthrough, trailblazing work. I learned so much and was deeply moved. If you are a survivor of abuse—sexual, domestic, clergy, or otherwise—please listen. This episode will help you. (You are also welcome to reach out to Suzie directly; her email is in the show notes.) And if you are a local church leader, friend, family member, or really anyone else, please listen and share this podcast and Suzie’s book. It will provide you with better tools to help and support others. I truly wish I had heard this podcast and read Suzie’s book before my own church assignments—I would have been so much better equipped to help provide healing. Thank you, Suzie, for writing this book and for your vulnerability on the podcast. Your insights, courage, and work are helping so many. You are one of my new heroes. Links: Suzie’s Website: https://www.thestonesphere.com/ Suzie’s Email: S.E.Greco@sms.ed.ac.uk Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FD9FT8B1 Suzie’s Facebook :https://www.facebook.com/suzgrec2 Dialogue Journal Article, "Confronting Men's Violence Against Women & Girls in the LDS Church": https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/confronting-mens-violence-against-women-and-girls-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints/

My friend Autumn McAlpin (co-director and mother of two queer sons) and Vienna Boyes (co-director, mid 20s, queer) join us to share their stories and also their new feature length documentary called “Sanctuary”. Sanctuary—a must see—is a powerful documentary telling stories at the intersection of being a Latter-day Saint (and other Christian faiths) and being LGBTQ. I watched Sanctuary and was deeply moved hearing powerful stories/projects/efforts of queer people, parents, allies, and local church leaders. I learned so much and was deeply moved. I encourage everyone to watch Sanctuary (see show notes) and share with others. The film will be going on a screening tour in early 2026 before being released on streamers -- please follow the film's website and Instagram for screening announcements. Thank you, Autumn, and Vienna—and everyone involved with the documentary. You are making a huge difference in our community! Links (feel free to add more links such as social media if you want to) Sanctuary Web Site: https://sanctuarydoc.com/ Sanctuary Instagram: @sanctuarydocfilm Vienna's Instagram: @indigothestudio Autumn's Instagram: @autumnmcalpin Spencer’s Song: https://open.spotify.com/track/2qKXdi4mxZ0rXGoxJ6jlCF

My friend Bryson Lind (active gay Latter-day Saint, mid 30’s) joins us to discuss his new therapy practice in Utah (Aletheia Counseling) and important topics he helps clients (LGBTQ and straight) solve including: Overcoming unwanted behaviors Reconstructing a relationship with the Divine Honoring everyone’s path Trusting our Light of Christ/Inner Compass Navigating relationships with parents and leaders Developing self-confidence and patience If you are looking for a therapist (or insights from a therapist to help you—or to be a better ally for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints), this is a must listen podcast. Bryson’s brings his lived experience, clinical training, and 5 years of clinical practice together to offer powerful solutions and principles. I was so moved listening to Bryson and so grateful to have him back on the podcast. Thank you, Bryson. You are a good man doing great work in our community. Links: Bryson’s e-mail: bryson@aletheiacounselingtherapy.com Bryson’s Work Phone: 385-442-9721 Bryson’s earlier podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-588-bryson-lind-rm-byu-grad-gay-clinical-mental-health-counselor Bryson’s Psychology Today profile: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/bryson-garrett-lind-provo-ut/1090307

My friend Rob Metalf (married father of two, age 33) joins us to share his journey with his mental health (OCD/anxiety) and his physical health (Ankylosing spondylitis—or AS). Rob (guitar player and songwriter) has formed a band (TOWN!) and is releasing an album (The Road Trip) that captures many of his life experiences. The first song (Forever—see show notes) is a song about his anxiety. In the podcast, Rob talks about other songs that on the album talking about important and sensitive subjects (suicide, relationship with the Church, Alzheimer's). In the podcast, Rob shares his journey with AS (undiagnosed for a long time) and how it took him from an avid outdoorsman to—on his worse days—bedridden. Rob talks about his journey to find a diagnosis and the right medication to get him in a better spot—and all the people that helped him along the way. Rob is honest about feeling angry/abandon by God and how we can better support people with long-term health challenges. Rob is one of my heroes. He is a survivor and now using his gifts to help others through sharing his story and his music. I encourage you to listen to and share this podcast and his music. Thank you, Rob, for being on the podcast. You are a good man. Links: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/5B6F6RaBY79SLmTIZvOzLs?si=495f1a71eacd480e&nd=1&dlsi=cc0b82d21bb24d6e Apple Music: https://music.apple.com/us/album/forever/1826704391?i=1826704454 Our Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abandcalledtown/

Talk given in our YSA Ward on the character of our Heavenly Parents and Jesus—and how that brings us peace, healing, and hope. Focused on seven concepts: 1) Our Heavenly Parents love all Their children 2) We have to believe/know we are acceptable to God. That we are created as intended. That no one is a mistake 3) Zion isn’t sameness 4) Jesus loves to forgive 5) Whole and complete now 6) Don’t feel you are behind 7) Throw out the dating checklist Links: Seven Tips for Overcoming Porn Use: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/10/young-adults/7-tips-for-overcoming-pornography-use How the Savior’s Healing Applies to Repenting from Sexual Sin: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2020/08/young-adults/how-the-saviors-healing-power-applies-to-repenting-from-sexual-sin

My friends Aaron and Julie Bujnowski (married parents of two; living North of Dallas, Texas, active Latter-day Saints) join us to talk about their new book “Navigating to Jesus: A Journey of Faith.” In this important 10-chapter book, Aaron and Julie share many of their own difficult/wounding experiences (both in and out of the Church), and their path forward to healing and staying in the Church is Jesus. Thank you, Aaron and Julie, for opening up your hearts in writing this needed book and being on the podcast. I am grateful for your courage to talk about some of your difficult life experiences, and “navigating to Jesus” is the answer. I encourage everyone to check out your book! Links: Amazon: https://a.co/d/cUw0Y09 Cedar Fort: https://www.cedarfort.com/products/navigating-to-jesus-a-journey-of-faith?sca_ref=2861413.ytmX5gv94t Instagram: @navigatingtojesus Earlier episode on Listen, Learn, and Love (episode 647): soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-647-aaron-and-julie-bujnowski-new-book-discovering-your-temple-insights

My friend Jessica Frew (life coach, former husband is gay and still “part of the family”, married mother of three) joins us to share her story of her husband coming out as gay and that marriage ending—and still staying close as they co-parent their daughter. Jessica also talks about her important new book called “Shove Your Shoulds” which focuses on healthier boundaries, improved self-image, and deeper acceptance of ourselves and others. Jessica writes the book from her own experiences and from her work as a life coach. I am grateful for Jessica’s voice on acceptance and understanding in our community—and encourage everyone to check out her new book (currently in presale—release date of Sept 12, 2025). Thank you, Jessica, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Links: Book website: https://shoveyourshoulds.com/ Jessica on Instagram: @heyjessicafrew Jessica’s podcast (Husband In Law): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/husband-in-law/id1464470280 Jessica’s earlier episode on Listen, Learn, and Love (episode 217): https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-217-jessica-and-matt-frew-active-lds-and-steve-stoddard-jessicas-gay-former-husband

My friend Darren Parry (Shoshone Leader, Adjust Professor at Utah State and University of Utah, Author) joins us to talk about his new book called “Tending the Sacred: How Indigenous Wisdom will Save the World” which talks about values from the lens of our Indigenous friends to help understand and solve today’s problems. Darren talks about his own history (including his ancestors) using real life examples on how “Indigenous Wisdom” helps see and solve problems bringing us together as the same human family. I am deeply moved by Darren’s insights/soft heart and work to build bridges. I’m honored to have served as Darren’s companion during our missions in England 45 years ago as I had the chance to see Darren’s love for the people of England (and love for me—his new junior companion). I encourage everyone to reach Darren’s book—for timeless values to help bring us together. Thank you to our friends at BCC Press for publishing Darren’s book. Thank you, Darren, for being on the podcast and your needed work in our world! Links: Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1961471248 Darren’s FB: https://www.facebook.com/darren.parry.7

My friends McArthur Krishna and Anne Pimentel (authors, BYU grads, advocates for those on the margins) join us to talk about their important new book (at Deseret Book and Amazon) called “Changemakers: Women Who Bolding Built Zion” The podcast/book covers important topics: How revelation is “scattered” How women led changing the Church Institution with Primary and Relief Society How most of the change we can impact is in our local area around culture Anne’s racial awakening—and her desire to help people of other races feel belonging The “Back Yard Principle” Supporting those who leave the church Why McArthur and Anne (knowing all the complicated issues) stay in the Church Why McArthur hopes the Church her daughters are raised in is different than the Church she was raised in—and how we should embrace change Importance of personal authority If you are looking to improve church culture to better create Zion so more feel welcome, I encourage you to read/share this book. It has real-life stories and perspectives/principles to help each of us. I wish I had read a book like this a long time ago. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others. Thank you, McArthur and Anne, for your needed work in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560855185 Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/6085124.html McArthur IG: @mcarthurkrishna_creates McArthur FB: www.facebook.com/mcarthur.mcarthurfreeranger Heavenly Mother Matters IG: @heavenlymothermatters Anne IG: @the.vision.beautiful James Jones Online Course: btbacademy.thinkific.com/courses/lds-anti-racism-101-abandoning-attitudes-and-actions-of-prejudice Chapter on How We Should Treat People Who Leave the Church: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zkupzyte3lqqtxla6q9y1/Chapter-4-How-Should-We-Treat-Those-Who-Leave-the-Church.pdf?rlkey=w00hdkyywo5m9dyg1uwscqbxm&dl=0

My friends Shirley Washenko (sexual abuse survivor/advocate) and Sage Williams (MSc, RN, long-time advocate) joins us to talk about their new, groundbreaking and needed book (published by Deseret Book) called “Healing after Sexual Abuse, A Latter-day Saint Perspective”. The book has these powerful chapters: 1) Establishing Identity 2) Uncovering Wounds 3) Embracing Agency 4) Differentiating Healing Journeys 5) Responding to Anger with Integrity 6) The Core: Connection 7) It Takes “an Angel” to Speak the Truth 8) Grief: Linking, Past Present, and Future 9) Forgiveness in a New Light 10) The Healing Journey This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on healing after sexual abuse. Shirley and Sage (from their respective experiences) bring new, impactful, and practical insights to help heal from sexual abuse. The book will help sexual abuse survivors and also the rest of us as we learn better tools to help them. I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast, read the book—and share with others. Thank you, Shirley and Sage, for your life-saving work to bring hope and healing. You are two of my heroes. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Web Site: www.healingaftersexualabuse.com/ Deseret Book: www.deseretbook.com/product/P6078641.html Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1639934219

My friends Ashli Carnicelli, Trina Caudle, and McArthur Krishna join us to talk about their new book “Mother in Heaven: A Gospel Topics Essay Study Guide.” The book is exactly what the title says: a study guide for the Church's Gospel Topics essay on Heavenly Mother. The book authors talk about the spiritual benefits in our lives of learning about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother and why She matters. This book is aligned with official Church statements and teachings about the doctrine of Heavenly Mother. The authors hope that it helps people seeking our Mother in Heaven to spiritually connect with Her so She is real, intentional, and active in our lives and in Church conversations. Thank you, Ashli, Trina and McArthur, for your needed work. I was deeply moved by your insights and good hearts. I encourage everyone to read this book. Links: Mother in Heaven Study Guide: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228725 Cherish 1: The Joy of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1948218879 Cherish 2: The Love of Our Mother in Heaven: www.amazon.com/dp/1734228733 A Girl's Guide to Heavenly Mother: www.deseretbook.com/product/5258047.html A Boy's Guide to Heavenly Mother: www.deseretbook.com/product/5258052.html Combined IG account: @heavenlymothermatters Personal IG accounts: @ashlicarnicelli @libraryhouseediting @mcarthurkrishna_creates

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Isaac Durfey (lives in Utah County, Age 34, Adopted, Active Latter-day Saint) bravely joins us to share his story which includes: Being bullied Being suicidal Working through pornography Convicted of being a sex offender and spending 4.5 years in prison Leaving prison—what he learned, why he isn’t going back, finding hope Accepting he is gay—but doesn’t define him Talented musician Great/supportive parents Role of friends to help him feel he is loved and needed Great YSA Wards Hopes for his future including the Melchizedek Priesthood and Temple Endowment Thank you, Isaac, for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story—stories like yours help others find hope. Thanks for helping all understand our Heavenly Parents love all of us and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives hope, heals and helps us move forward. You are a good man. Links: Isaac on Instagram: @durfsmurf25

My friend Lilly MacKenzie (who was on Episode 765) joins us to update listeners on her journey—including her spiritual journey (which includes more about her purpose, her belief in the Church, and her mission to help others). Lilly also talks about how the August 2024 transgender handbooks updates negatively impacted her—and how/why she continues to be a deeply committed and believing Latter-day Saint. She also talks about the support/support groups that help her. And she talks about how her emotional health is so much better since transitioning. Thank you, Lilly, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are helping so many. Links: June 2025 Gather Conference: www.gather-conference.com/ Lilly’s earlier episode (765): podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-765-lilly-mackenzie-transgender-latter-day/id1347971725?i=1000661805297

My friend Aiden Kelly (he/him, trans man, age 23, future in theatre) and my friend Annalee Kelly (married mother of 4, RM, active LDS, from Idaho Falls) join us to share their story. Aiden starts and talks about: Immense pain of gender dysphoria Writing in his journal—and sharing that journal entry with his mother as a way to come out as a boy Knowing sharing his pain with others would be key to getting help and making his future possible How hormone treatment and top surgery ended the pain and have him hope Parents support Glad he is alive. Has hope and a future. Advice to others who are suicidal/have no hope. Annalee then shares about: The long-term hatred Aiden had for his body (hair pulling, pounding on his chest, etc) Asking advice from his Bishop (good experience) Had to put Aiden’s life ahead of my original dreams/hopes Generally positive ward and family support Starting Open Arms of Idaho Pain of the August 2025 transgender handbook policy update “Aiden is a masterpiece” Aiden’s Father support Aiden is one of my heroes—a brave, talented, a good man—with a wonderful future. I’m glad you are alive Aiden and thank you for your courage to share your story. You give hope to others. And thank you Annalee for helping us know we can love and support our LGBTQ friends and family—and how that is part of responsibility as Latter-day Saints and followers of Jesus. Thank you for all the work you and your team is doing in the Idaho Falls area to bring more love and understanding. You are all some of my heroes. You are a beautiful family. And your story will help so many. Links: Open Arms of Idaho: openarmsidaho.org/ Open Arms of Idaho Instagram: @openarmsidaho Open Arms of Idaho Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089047401155

My friend Nikki Andreasky (BYU-I grad, lives in AZ, they/them) joins us to share their story including: Long-term gender dysphoria/chest dysphoria—and prayerful decision to have top surgery Love of the temple Learning of the handbook changes (Aug 2024) for transgender members weeks before the surgery leading to feelings of “being stabbed in the gut”, “betrayed” and “really hurt” Meeting with local leaders Proceeding with the top surgery—feelings of gender euphoria Pain of not being able to attend the temple and no chance of temple sealing How North Star gave them a spiritual boost Why they stay in the Church Supportive mothers—grandma’s scriptures Nikki is one of my heroes—for their spiritual/emotional maturity and navigating an incredible complex road as a non-binary Latter-day Saint. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode so we can better understand, love and support non-binary/transgender Latter-day Saints. I believe they are needed members of the Body of Christ. Thank you for being on the podcast, Nikki. You are awesome. Links: North Star Voices of Hope: www.northstarsaints.org/voh-nikki-2022 Earlier Listen Learn and Love Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-320-lynsie-andreasky-active-lds-asexual-aromantic-and-gender-queer/sets Nikki’s Tic Tok: www.tiktok.com/@scattering_sunshine?_t=ZT-8w1g82Dlqsl&_r=1 Nikki’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/share/16HB8rwVrQ/?mibextid=wwXIfr

*** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 *** My friend Jenn Curtis (late 40s, lives in California, experiences same-sex attraction) joins us to share her powerful story out of a desire to help others including: Sexual assault survivor which led to unhealthy coping behaviors and immense shame Falsely concluding “God is disappointed in me” Falsely concluding (at age 17) that death would be a better option Feeling unlovable and that “no one could love the real me” Finding more hope—but two subsequent decades of living in a “form of internal hell” Powerful spiritual experience where God told her she is a “bullfighter” Honest about sexual orientation with God, herself, and husband Helpful friends—part of the process to remove shame As friends loved/accepted her, Jenn considered “I might be lovable—and God may love me too” My story is a “beautiful love story” Finding joy Powerful EFY experience North Star This is a super-powerful, spiritual, and vulnerable podcast providing principles to help us better understand God’s love, how shame has no place in the Gospel, and how Jesus helps heal us. If you are in a hard spot, please listen to Jenn’s story. It will give you more hope. And if you are looking to better support our SSA/LGBTQ friends, please listen and share Jenn’s podcast. Thank you for being on the podcast, Jenn! You are so brave—you are bullfighter—and your courage is helping so many! Links: youtube.com/@LatterdayWomenWarriors https://www.northstarsaints.org/voh-jenn www.youtube.com/@TheApocrypharules www.northstarsaints.org/voices-of-hope-profiles North Star: www.northstarsaints.org/ Jenn’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007513065761

My friend Sharlee Mullins Glenn (noted author, former adjunct faculty at BYU, committed Latter-day Saint, married mother of 5, founder and former Executive Director of MWEG) joins us to talk about her important and groundbreaking new book, an expansive epic poem full of imagination and possibilities, centering the feminine divine. In the words of Fiona Givens, Sharlee’s epic poem “is an ambitious and beautiful rendering of Latter-day Saint beliefs and yearnings regarding the feminine divine, the ethos of existence, and the centrality of agency, relationships and love.” Some of the ideas Sharlee shared include: Her book is fiction--a blending of theology, science, and imagination It is an offering of imagination, and does not purport to set forth doctrine Imagination is a spiritual gift and reflects God's divine nature The inclusion of the feminine divine was driven by two burning questions: 1) Where are the women in the grand, ancient story of our beginnings, and 2) What good is a doctrine if we never speak of it or seek greater light and knowledge concerning it? Her hope is that her "offering of imagination" will prompt others to examine the boundaries of their own paradigms and consider new possibilities Heavenly Mother “will be unveiled again” This is a unique and insightful podcast focused on a book (which is a beautiful poem) that is a reimagining of the entire scope of existence, centering the feminine divine and the preeminence of love. I learned so much from Sharlee and encourage our listeners to read her book and share it with others. Links: Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1961471205/ Barnes and Noble: www.barnesandnoble.com/w/1147162041

My friend Sara Sumsion (RM, Age 30, YSA ward leader, getting a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy) joins us to share her unique story. Sara starts with her good father’s decision to leave the Church and her initial judgements about his decision. She then shares her difficult mission experience including spiritual abuse that nearly broke her and led to her considering leaving the Church. Sara talks about finding the grey and her intentional decision to stay in the Church, her reconstructed testimony, and her desire to help others find hope and healing. Sara talks about her road to become a vocal LGBTQ Ally including her Instagram post of her non-binary friend. Sara talks about helping everyone feel welcome in their YSA ward and also practicing boundaries/good communication when interacting with less active members. Sara concludes with her Mother’s Day lesson including a focus on Heavenly Mother and helping all women feel good and welcome (regardless of their current status or feelings regarding motherhood). If you are working to stay in the Church, Sara’s journey may help you. And if you are looking for more insights about how to teach/organize a positive meeting on Mother’s Day, Sara suggestions may help you. And if you are looking to create a safer place in your Ward, Sara’s story may help you. Thank you, Sara, for your work to create Zion. I learned so much from you. You give me hope for the future of our Church and world. I see the example of Jesus reflected in your ministry. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sara.sumsion IG: @sar_assumption/

My dear friends, Susan Hinckley and Cynthia Winward, (co-founders of the “At Last She Said It Project” which includes their groundbreaking podcast—with over 200 episodes and 2+ million downloads) join us to talk about their new book. Their book invites readers to consider new perspectives, be open to changing our minds, and how growth can be uncomfortable—and how this leads to helping more fellow Latter-day Saints feel valued, welcome and how to have more belonging. The book helps us better understand patriarchy within the church and how this can cause pain for both women and men—and what we can do in our area of influence to improve. The book also addresses many other topics within the church to help us build Zion including: Discipling Obedience Fear Repentance Worthiness Cynthia's Personal Essay: “Works for Me” Susan's Personal Essay: “Metamorphosis” Speaking Up Why I Wear a Cross I’ve learned so much from these two good women about better ministering to others. I wish their podcast and book existed decades ago—it would have helped me be a better husband, father, church member—and better lift (versus sometimes add) to the burdens of others. I encourage everyone to read/share their book. Thank you, Susan and Cynthia. You two are awesome. Links: Book and podcast: atlastshesaidit.org/