This is part two of our conversation with Dr Claire St Peter from the University of West Virginia where she is currently the Chair of the Department of Psychology, and Dr Carol Pilgrim, a Professor Emerit in the Psychology Department at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Dr Pilgrim has received many honors throughout her career including the North Carolina Board of Governors Teaching Excellence Award, the Faculty Scholarship Award, the Chancellor’s Teaching Excellence Award, the ABAI Student Committee Outstanding Mentor Award in 2006, and the ABAI Distinguished Service to Behavior Analysis award in 2017. Her research contributions include both basic and applied behavior analysis, with an emphasis in human operant behavior and relational stimulus control. Our subject is for this podcast is stimulus control. In Part 1 Dr. Pilgrim started us out with definitions and an introduction to the subject. She shared the story of Clever Hans, a horse who was said to be able to do complicated math problems. What he really could do was read the very subtle cues his handler and others were giving that told him when he had reached the right answer. In part two we take a deeper into the subject of stimulus control, including a discussion of relational stimulus control.

We’ve covered a lot of topics with behavior analysts. This week we’re talking with Dr. Carol Pilgrim and Dr. Claire St Peter about stimulus control. Dr Claire St Peter is from the University of West Virginia, where she is currently the Chair of the Department of Psychology. Claire has been on this podcast many times. Claire is not only a behavior analyst she is also a horse person. When I say that everything is connected to everything else, Claire has been helping us to see the connection between behavior analysis and horse training. We wrote an article together on loopy training which was published in 2022 in the Journal of Experimental Analysis of Behavior. The title was: Connecting animal trainers and behavior analysts through loopy training. Claire has gone on connecting animal trainers and behaviors analysts via this podcast. This past spring I received a SABA award for all the equiosity episodes Dominique and I have done on topics directly related to behavior analysis. When Claire and I met up after the award ceremony, we were chatting about topics that would be interesting to cover. Claire suggested we reach out to Dr Carol Pilgrim for a deep dive into stimulus control. Dr Carol Pilgrim is a Professor Emerit in the Psychology Department at the University of North Carolina Wilmington. Dr Pilgrim has received many honors throughout her career including the North Carolina Board of Governors Teaching Excellence Award, the Faculty Scholarship Award, the Chancellor’s Teaching Excellence Award, the ABAI Student Committee Outstanding Mentor Award in 2006, and the ABAI Distinguished Service to Behavior Analysis award in 2017. Her research contributions include both basic and applied behavior analysis, with an emphasis in human operant behavior and relational stimulus control. In Part 1 of this podcast we begin the conversation with basic definitions and concepts related to stimulus control.

For the episode we’re continuing our conversation with Rick Hester, Amy Shilze and Lucy Butler. Rick is the Curator of Behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. He oversees all the zoo's behavioral programming. His work includes the zoo's animal training for husbandry, medical, and public show behaviors, enrichment, developing programs to improve problem behavior situations, the zoo's formal animal welfare assessments, and exhibit design for behavior goals. We’re also joined by Amy Schilze, who has the dream job of working with the Cheyenne Mountain zoo’s giraffe. Amy is the Senior Animal Behaviorist for Cheyenne Mountain Zoo's International Center for the Care and Conservation of Giraffe, where she runs giraffe workshops and conferences, both stateside and internationally. Both Rick and Amy also partner with Dr. Susan Friedman and her Behavior Works consulting team so you’ll hear a lot of references to Susan throughout this conversation. In addition to Rick and Amy, I invited Lucy Butler to join us. Lucy and her husband run the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. I knew she would have a lot of questions for Rick and Amy. When you take in animals who are the victims of abuse, there’s a lot to be learned from the work that goes on in zoos to reduce the stress of handling and also to improve the overall quality of life for the animals under their care. In this episode Rick and Amy talk about the educational programs which are woven into the experience Guests have as they tour the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo. There are twenty-three shows for the public every day. In these shows the animals are the star. It is about showing what they can do, what their natural behaviors are - all while protecting the dignity of the animals. The shows at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo show animals controlling their reinforcers and using their bodies in ways that are natural to them. Trainers interpret both what their life in the zoo looks like, what their life in the wild environment looks like, and how capable they are of learning. They are trying to create connections between the public and the animals at the zoo in a way that elevates the animal. For Lucy this part of the conversation was especially relevant because the public is invited in to tour the River Haven Animal Sanctuary that she and her husband run. She was getting many great ideas for how they can make this experience better both for their guests and their resident animals. But even if you don’t give tours, there’s much here that can be used to enrich your horse’s life. We begin the episode with a discussion of techniques used to introduce new animals into an existing social group.

For the episode we’re continuing our conversation with Rick Hester, Amy Shilze and Lucy Butler. Rick is the Curator of Behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. He oversees all the zoo's behavioral programming. His work includes the zoo's animal training for husbandry, medical, and public show behaviors, enrichment, developing programs to improve problem behavior situations, the zoo's formal animal welfare assessments, and exhibit design for behavior goals. We’re also joined by Amy Schlis, who has the dream job of working with the Cheyanne Mountain zoo’s giraffe. Amy is the Senior Animal Behaviorist for Cheyenne Mountain Zoo's International Center for the Care and Conservation of Giraffe, where she runs giraffe workshops and conferences, both stateside and internationally. Both Rick and Amy also partner with Dr. Susan Friedman and her Behavior Works consulting team so you’ll hear a lot of references to Susan throughout this conversation. In addition to Rick and Amy, I invited Lucy Butler to join us. Lucy and her husband run the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. I knew she would have a lot of questions for Rick and Amy. When you take in animals who are the victims of abuse, there’s a lot to be learned from the work that goes on in zoos to reduce the stress of handling and also to improve the overall quality of life for the animals under their care. In this episode Rick and Amy introduce the concept of freeing up the operant: what that means and how that impacts the implementation of enrichment opportunities for the animals under their care. This episode is rich with ideas for providing more enrichment for our horses.

For the episode we’re heading to the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo for a conversation with Rick Hester, Amy Schilz and Lucy Butler. Rick is the Curator of Behavioral Husbandry for the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado. He oversees all the zoo's behavioral programming. His work includes the zoo's animal training for husbandry, medical, and public show behaviors, enrichment, developing programs to improve problem behavior situations, the zoo's formal animal welfare assessments, and exhibit design for behavior goals. We’re also joined by Amy Schilz who has the dream job of working with the Cheyanne Mountain zoo’s giraffe. Amy is the Senior Animal Behaviorist for Cheyenne Mountain Zoo's International Center for the Care and Conservation of Giraffe, where she runs giraffe workshops and conferences, both stateside and internationally. Both Rick and Amy also partner with Dr. Susan Friedman and her Behavior Works consulting team so you’ll hear a lot of references to Susan throughout this conversation. In addition to Rick and Amy, I invited Lucy Butler to join us. Lucy and her husband run the River Haven Animal Sanctuary in Rhode Island. I knew she would have a lot of questions for Rick and Amy. When you take in animals who are the victims of abuse, there’s a lot to be learned from the work that goes on in zoos to reduce the stress of handling and also to improve the overall quality of life for the animals under their care. In this episode Rick and Amy talk about fine-tuning what a “no response” looks like and what handlers should do when they see the first signs of an animal saying “no”. As they fine tuned their understanding of “no” responses, they were actually describing an operationalized behavior that is “yes”. What does it look like for an animal to say “yes” Assent is a behavior the learner performs and continues to perform that lets us know we can continue. When they stop performing that behavior, assent is withdrawn, so we have to withdraw. This is the process that the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo trainers follow. Relief is readily available to the animal learners. Across species in a system where relief is abundantly available and there are strong reinforcers at a high rate for opting in, most animals opt in more and opt out less. After Rick and Amy describe the training that they are doing at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo, we switch the focus to horse training. Letting horses opt out runs counter to traditional horse training methods. But certainly we know that horses also opt in more when they have the option of saying “no”. This episode also includes an announcement for my new book: “Never Get A Wizard Mad At You”: Book One in the Upstairs Armadillo Series.

This is part 3 of a conversation with Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler about their visit in August to attend Anja Beran’s 12th International Workshop held at her stable in Bavaria. Both Michaela and Lucy have been guests on the podcast many times before. Michaela is well known for the research project she did on the operant control of cribbing. With her own horses she has been using my work to help make Anja’s beautiful riding more accessible. This year Michaela helped interpret Anja’s work for a group of clicker trainers who attended the workshop. Lucy was one of the people in that group. In part 1 Lucy shared her first impressions of Anja’s work. She described the facility and some of the horses she watched. Many of these horses are at the foundation because Anja was their last chance. They were on their way to slaughter. These were young horses who had been crippled by inappropriate training. Anja’s work not only shows that good riding doesn’t have to harm horses. It can heal them. In Part 2 Michaela and Lucy help make the connections between what I teach and Anja’s training. One of the major links is the ever present focus on balance. Now in Part 3 we look in more detail at lateral movements and ways of exploring them that can help you understand how to use them in training to help your horse maintain healthy movement.

This is part 2 of a conversation with Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler about their visit in August to attend Anja Beran’s 12th International Workshop held at her stable in Bavaria. Both Michaela and Lucy have been guests on the podcast many times before. Michaela is well known for the research project she did on the operant control of cribbing. With her own horses she has been using my work to help make Anja’s beautiful riding more accessible. This year Michaela helped interpret Anja’s work for a group of clicker trainers who attended the workshop. Lucy was one of the people in that group. In part 1 Lucy shared her first impressions of Anja’s work. She described the facility and some of the horses she watched. Many of these horses are at the foundation because Anja was their last chance. They were on their way to slaughter. These were young horses who had been crippled by inappropriate training. Anja’s work not only shows that good riding doesn’t have to harm horses. It can heal them. In this episode Michaela and Lucy help make the connections between what I teach and Anja’s training. One of the major links is the ever present focus on balance.

This is part 1 of a conversation with Michaela Hempen and Lucy Butler about their visit in August to attend Anja Beran’s 12th International Workshop held at her stable in Bavaria. Both Michaela and Lucy have been guests on the podcast many times before. Michaela is well known for the research project she did on the operant control of cribbing. With her own horses she has been using my work to help make Anja’s beautiful riding more accessible. This year Michaela helped interpret Anja’s work for a group of clicker trainers who attended the workshop. Lucy was one of the people in that group. I asked Lucy about her first impressions of Anja’s work. She described the facility and some of the horses she watched. Many of these horses are with Anja because she was their last chance. They were on their way to slaughter. These were young horses who had been crippled by inappropriate training. Anja’s work not only shows that good riding doesn’t have to harm horses. It can heal them.

Equiosity Episode 342: Horses for Future Jane Myers and The Equicentral System Pt 2 This is part 2 of a conversation Jane Myers on the equicentral system and pasture management. This episode comes from the archives of my Horses For Future podcast that I produced from 2019 to 2021. The podcast explored what horse people can do to help in the climate change crisis. 
Think of the green plants in your horse's pasture as tiny solar panels. The 
plants create sugars which they send down into their roots. But they 
aren't just nourishing themselves. The sugars are transferred to fungi
and bacteria in exchange for minerals the plants need.

When a pasture is overgrazed, plants can't develop deep root structures. 
They don't have enough "solar panels" left to do the work. The fungi and
bacteria die off, and the soil deteriorates.

We can turn this around with better pasture management. It's a win-win 
situation. Our horses become healthier as we sequester more carbon in 
our pastures. The Horses for Future podcast began with an exploration of pasture management practices and then looked at other ways in which horse people can make a difference for the health of the planet. So for this weeks equiosity podcast I’m sharing a podcast from the Horses for Future archives. It is an interview with Jane Myers about the Equicentral System. Pastures which are overgrazed or have turned to mud lots can be restored. Jane describes how the equicentral system works to restore overgrazed, damaged pastures. Healthy pastures contribute to healthy horses and a healthier planet. Enjoy!

We’ve just finished a three part conversation with Dr Susan Schneider that was centered around the climate change crisis. In that conversation I referenced my Horses For Future podcast. This is a podcast that I produced from 2019 to 2021. It explored what horse people can do to help in the climate change crisis. The premise is a simple one. Horse people can make a difference in the climate change crisis. We can sequester carbon!

Think of the green plants in your horse's pasture as tiny solar panels. The 
plants create sugars which they send down into their roots. But they 
aren't just nourishing themselves. The sugars are transferred to fungi
and bacteria in exchange for minerals the plants need.

When a pasture is overgrazed, plants can't develop deep root structures. 
They don't have enough "solar panels" left to do the work. The fungi and
bacteria die off, and the soil deteriorates.

We can turn this around with better pasture management. It's a win-win 
situation. Our horses become healthier as we sequester more carbon in 
our pastures. The Horses for Future podcast began with an exploration of pasture management practices and then looked at other ways in which horse people can make a difference for the health of the planet. So for this weeks equiosity podcast I’m sharing a podcast from the Horses for Future archives. It is an interview with Jane Myers about the Equicentral System. Pastures which are overgrazed or have turned to mud lots can be restored. Jane describes how the equicentral system works to restore overgrazed, damaged pastures. Healthy pastures contribute to healthy horses and a healthier planet.

This is Part 3 of a three part conversation with Dr. Susan Schneider. Dr.Schneider is the author of “The Science of Consequences”. For the past eight years Dr, Schneider has made climate change her primary focus. Dr. Schneider is on the faculty at Western Michigan University and serves on its Climate Change Working Group. She also serves on the Tools of Change Landmark Peer Review Panel for Climate Change, and on the board of the nonprofit Green Driving America. Now if you are wondering why a podcast about all things equine is talking about climate change, here’s the connection. Horses are grazing animals. That means that collectively horse people own, manage, make decisions about a huge amount of land. What we are learning is healthy pastures help to contribute to healthy horses. Healthy pastures also contribute to biodiversity. Healthy pastures come from healthy soils. Improved soil quality absorbs more water which helps to reduce flooding. Healthy soils also sequesters carbon. So horse people can help in the climate change crisis through the way we manage our land. It’s one of those win-win-win situations. Healthier pastures are good for our horses which is good for us and it’s also good for the planet. I wanted to explore three major topics with Dr. Schneider. The first is where are we now in terms of climate change? Why should we care? The second is what can we do to make a difference. And the third area is how can we talk to others without shutting them down and driving them away? There are lessons to be learned here not just about how do we talk about climate change, but how do we talk about positive reinforcement training when we’re surrounded by command-based trainers. In the previous episode we looked at alternatives that don’t force people to make the kind of life style choices that mean going without. For example, we don’t have to give up driving. We can drive an electric vehicle instead of a fossil fuel car. Choosing the alternative to a gas powered engine means we still get to drive. In this episode we consider actions which horse people in particular are in a great position to take as we consider changes to the decisions we make about the way we manage our pastures. Even if you board and the only land you manage is the lawn around your house, you can take actions that collectively make a difference.

This is Part 2 of a three part conversation with Dr. Susan Schneider. Dr.Schneider is the author of “The Science of Consequences”. For the past eight years Susan has made climate change her primary focus. Her work on climate change and sustainability includes outreach, community projects, organizing, academic and nonacademic publications, and extensive public speaking.  As Senior Scientist for the sustainability nonprofit Root Solutions, Dr Schneider helped design projects and coauthored two chapters in its 2022 guidebook, Making Shift Happen: Designing for Successful Environmental Behavior Change.   Recent outreach includes a podcast for the Union of Concerned Scientists.  Schneider’s award-winning book for the public, The Science of Consequences, covers basic learning principles, their role in nature-nurture relations, and their broad range of applications, including sustainability.  Schneider is on the faculty at Western Michigan University and serves on its Climate Change Working Group. She also serves on the Tools of Change Landmark Peer Review Panel for Climate Change, and on the board of the nonprofit Green Driving America. Now if you are wondering why a podcast about all things equine is talking about climate change, here’s the connection. Horses are grazing animals. That means that collectively horse people own, manage, make decisions about a huge amount of land. What we are learning is healthy pastures help to contribute to healthy horses. Healthy pastures also contribute to biodiversity. Healthy pastures come from healthy soils. Improved soil quality absorbs more water which helps to reduce flooding. Healthy soils also sequesters carbon. So horse people can help in the climate change crisis through the way we manage our land. It’s one of those win-win-win situations. Healthier pastures are good for our horses which is good for us and it’s also good for the planet. I wanted to explore three major topics with Dr. Schneider. The first is where are we now in terms of climate change? Why should we care? The second is what can we do to make a difference. And the third area is how can we talk to others without shutting them down and driving them away? There are lessons to be learned here not just about how do we talk about climate change, but how do we talk about positive reinforcement training when we’re surrounded

In this three part series we’re joined by Dr. Susan Schneider is a behavior analyst. She is the author of “The Science of Consequences” which many of you may have read. Normally when we have behavior analysts as guests we talk about academic subjects such as schedules of reinforcement. In this case I wanted to talk to Susan about what horse people can do to help mitigate the climate change crisis. For the past eight years Susan has made climate change her primary focus. Her work on climate change and sustainability includes outreach, community projects, organizing, academic and nonacademic publications, and extensive public speaking.  As Senior Scientist for the sustainability nonprofit Root Solutions, Dr Schneider helped design projects and coauthored two chapters in its 2022 guidebook, Making Shift Happen: Designing for Successful Environmental Behavior Change.   Recent outreach includes a podcast for the Union of Concerned Scientists.  Schneider’s award-winning book for the public, The Science of Consequences, covers basic learning principles, their role in nature-nurture relations, and their broad range of applications, including sustainability.  Schneider is on the faculty at Western Michigan University and serves on its Climate Change Working Group. She also serves on the Tools of Change Landmark Peer Review Panel for Climate Change, and on the board of the nonprofit Green Driving America. Now if you are wondering why a podcast about all things equine is talking about climate change, here’s the connection. Horses are grazing animals. That means that collectively horse people own, manage, make decisions about a huge amount of land. What we are learning is healthy pastures help to contribute to healthy horses. Healthy pastures also contribute to biodiversity. Healthy pastures come from healthy soils. Improved soil quality absorbs more water which helps to reduce flooding. Healthy soils also sequesters carbon. So horse people can help in the climate change crisis through the way we manage our land. It’s one of those win-win-win situations. Healthier pastures are good for our horses which is good for us and it’s also good for the planet. I wanted to explore three major topics with Dr. Schneider. The first is where are we now in terms of climate change? Why should we care? The second is what can we do to make a difference. And the third area is how can we talk to others without shutting them down and driving them away? There are lessons to be learned here not just about how do we talk about climate change, but how do we talk about positive reinforcement training when we’re surrounded by command-based trainers. In part 1 I set the stage for this conversation and then Dr. Schneider took us to some hopeful solutions that are available to all of us.

Our guest this week is Anita Schnee. Anita is a Feldenkrais™ practitioner who has joined us many times on this podcast. During the recent conversation we recorded with Dr Brennan Armshaw and Dr Claire St Peter (episodes 324 and 325), I kept thinking - I wish we had invited Anita. Well, it turns out Anita was listening. Anita offers Awareness Through Movement classes twice a month via zoom. After listening to the podcast I did with Dr, Armshaw, the introduction to Anita’s next on-line ATM lesson was built around his work. That conversation generated all kinds of fun connections for Anita. In last week’s episode much of the focus was on what happens in the body when there’s an injury. Dr. Armshaw uses electromyography biofeedback to help people recover from injury. The Feldenkrais™ work also provides a pathway towards recovery. In this episode we’re going to switch the focus to look at why starting small is so effective. In her introduction to the Feldenkrais™ work from last week’s episode Anita made the point that this work is not exercise. It is not physical therapy. It is not yoga or pilates. So what is it? What I would say is the Feldnekrais™ work comes first. Through the awareness lessons you learn how to move well so when you engage in these other activities you are better able to perform well. That includes the work we do with our horses. Starting small is effective for us, and it is certainly effective with our horses. The “why” behind this is what we’re going to be talking about.

Our guest this week is Anita Schnee. Anita is a Feldenkrais™ practitioner who has joined us many times on this podcast. During the recent conversation we recorded with Dr Brennan Armshaw and Dr Claire St Peter (episodes 324 and 325), I kept thinking - I wish we had invited Anita. Well it turns out Anita was listening. Anita offers Awareness Through Movement classes twice a month via zoom. The introduction to her next on-line ATM lesson was built around Dr. Armshaw’s work. It was sparking off all kinds of fun connections. I loved Anita’s introduction to that evening’s class. Of course, I wanted her to join me in a conversation, so here we are. We begin with a much better description of the Feldenkrais™ work than I provided during Dr. Armshaw’s podcast. Dr. Armshaw uses electromyography biofeedback to shape at the level of the activation of individual muscle fibers. Compared with his starting point we are all massively lumping! What interests me in this is what can be achieved when you start small. When we look for what comes before what comes before the action we are interested in, good things happen. Dr. Armshaw and Anita are helping us to understand what happens when we start small.

This week we are joined by two behavior analysts. Dr. Claire St Peter is the chair of behavior analysis at the University of West Virginia. She has been a frequent guest on this podcast. We are also joined by Dr. Brennan Armshaw, who also teaches at the University of West Virginia. Claire is a horse person so she’s able to bridge the world between behavior analysis and horse training. Dr. Armshaw has not yet been drawn into the world of horses, but his work is of great interest to me. As we learned, in Part 1 Dr. Armshaw takes starting small to a whole new level of smallness. He shapes at the level of individual muscle fibers firing which he measures with surface Electromyography. Surface electromyography records the electrical activity of targeted muscles. Dr Armshaw has been using surface electromyography biofeedback to improve outcomes for patients undergoing physical therapy. This may seem a long way from horse training, but given the number of injuries horses people sustain plus all the injuries we treat our horses for, our conversation should get some wheels turning. My interest is in what Dr. Armshaw has been discovering as he begins small. With the horses we see over and over again the value of microshaping. In this episode Dr Armshaw helps us understand why starting small can produce such huge results.

This week we are joined by two behavior analysts. Dr. Claire St Peter is the chair of behavior analysis at the University of West Virginia. She has been a frequent guest on this podcast. We are also joined by Dr. Brennan Armshaw. Claire is a horse person so she’s able to bridge the world between behavior analysis and horse training. Dr. Armshaw has not yet been drawn into the world of horses, but his work is of great interest to me. We have talked a lot about micro shaping in these podcasts and the importance of starting small. Dr. Armshaw’s work makes us all seem like lumpers. Using Surface electromyography, he has been training responses at the level of the firing of individual muscle fibers. His research brings new insights into how starting small can create the huge results we see.

We want to start small. That’s an important part of loopy training and constructional training in general. You begin with a small, simple, easily achieved response which means you are starting with a high success rate resulting in a high rate of reinforcement. This is great from your horse’s point of view. Very little effort yields consistent goodies. From our point of view we want to start small but we don’t want to stay small. Staying small means you are staying stuck in the narrow end of the funnel. Instead of the behavior expanding through gentle nudges, you are stuck in a tight cylinder. In this episode we look at different strategies for breaking free of the narrow cylinder so your training can expand into ever more complex behavior.

Dominique and I spent a very hot June afternoon recording this three part conversation. In the previous episode we talked about the weather because when it’s over a hundred degrees, it’s hard to think about anything else. We shared what we do to keep our horses comfortable in this extreme heat. We also talked about neck ropes. I described what you can use them for and how you introduce neck ropes to your horse. We ended with the neck rope evolving into a trailer loading lesson and then into ground driving. At the start of this lesson Dominique is asking about the difference between handlers who are absent versus handlers who are light. This leads to a discussion of riding on a release versus riding on contact. We talk about the difference between describing what an experienced riding is doing to influence her horse versus describing the process that got her to the result you’re admiring. We also talk about mounting blocks and how to teach your horse to line himself up next to the mounting block.

It’s hot. The day we recorded this conversation it was 105 degrees (Fahrenheit) where Dominique lives. My area was positively balmy by comparison. It was only 94 degrees. So the weather is what we both wanted to talk about and more specifically how do we manage our horses when the temperatures are so extreme? We aren’t authorities on horse care. We’re just two horse owners who worry a lot about our horses’ well being. In the first half of this podcast we exchange ideas about how to deal with extreme temperatures. Hot weather leads to talking about something else that’s very current for me and that’s ticks. The first half of our conversation is about management. The second half is all training. I describe how to introduce a the use of a neck rope. Working in a neck rope is a great stepping stone towards riding. It also evolves into a lesson that helps prep a horse for riding in a trailer, and for ground driving.