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Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
In this episode of What the REF?!, James, Gemma, and Simon reflect on an extraordinary few days at the Hidden REF Festival and explore what the new Post-16 Education and Skills White Paper could mean for the future of research assessment. The conversation begins with highlights from the Festival, where workshops, think-aloud experiments, and even a debate over Tom Cruise films versus K-pop tracks became creative ways to unpack how we evaluate non-traditionally submitted research outputs. What started as playful exercises quickly revealed deeper insights into the heuristics people use when making judgments, and how those can be made more explicit and fair in academic assessment.
The team also share the emotional impact of hearing from past Hidden REF competition winners. Stories like that of Laura Henderson, whose recognition in a Hidden Role has since led to expanded research support capacity in hospitals, underline why this work matters so much. A little recognition, they note, can have transformative effects on careers, institutions, and even patient outcomes. Alongside these moving moments, the Festival also laid the groundwork for expert working groups that will help shape guidelines for assessing diverse outputs, ensuring that the community itself drives the change.
From there, the discussion turns to the White Paper, which reaffirms the REF as the UK’s central mechanism for assessing research but hints at shifts in emphasis. The UK government’s focus on economic impact and the critique of a “one-size-fits-all” model of excellence suggest that the REF of the future may look very different. The team weigh up what this could mean for universities and for the broader definition of research excellence, noting both the risks of narrowing the focus and the opportunities for more inclusive recognition.
Together, these two threads — the grassroots energy of the Hidden REF Festival and the top-down direction of government policy — paint a picture of a research culture in transition. With the next Hidden REF competition on the horizon, the hosts argue that now is the moment to pull up our socks and get on with reshaping how excellence is defined and rewarded.
If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.
Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Welcome back to What the REF?!, the only podcast where academics make bureaucracy sound almost fun. Simon, James, and Gemma welcome new team member Dr Ola Thomson, who brings both organisational-behaviour expertise and the calm assurance of someone who’s already read the entire REF guidance.
Ola compares the REF to an iceberg: what you see is a harmless evaluation exercise, but beneath lurk strategy, politics, performance management, and possibly a kraken of accountability. The hosts debate why the REF's noble pursuit of excellence ends up raising everyone’s blood pressure.
Between discussions of “research culture,” “the human element,” and whether wombats could manage universities, the team delivers surprisingly profound insights—occasionally disguised as jokes.
By the end, listeners may find themselves reconsidering their life choices, their institutional policies, and whether being “REF-able” is a compliment. The REF will find you. But at least now, you’ll understand its motives.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
This week on What the Ref, the gang (Gemma, James, and Simon) score a big guest: Lizzie Gadd, one of the UK’s most respected voices in research assessment. If you’ve ever wondered why people keep muttering about “the REF pause” like it’s a cliffhanger in a Netflix series, this episode’s for you.
Lizzie dives straight into the thorny issue of research culture—what it is, why it matters, and why simply having shiny labs and big grants doesn’t mean your environment is excellent if the culture is toxic, precarious, or exclusive. She makes the case that culture isn’t a “nice-to-have” add-on but part of research excellence itself. Hygiene factors (like reporting misconduct or tackling pay gaps), she argues, are basic standards, not gold-star achievements.
The conversation also tackles REF politics, funding pressures, and the dreaded “publish or perish” mindset. Lizzie suggests that shifting weight away from outputs could encourage team science and more honest research practices. The hosts riff on rumors, fears, and the endless semantics of REF-speak, but ultimately agree with Lizzie’s mantra: stop dithering, just get on with it, and learn as we go.
It’s a thoughtful, fun, and surprisingly hopeful chat about how the UK can build research cultures worth celebrating—not just surviving.
If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.
Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
This week, James, Gemma, and Simon dive headfirst into the post-summer politics, but start with Simon’s keynote at the Research Software Engineering Conference. Imagine a room full of coders being told that research software deserves a spot in the REF – cue applause, tough questions, and one very good point: are we rewarding novelty over long-term, community-building work?
But that’s just the warm-up. The real drama? The infamous “pause to the REF.” Is it a no-cost extension in academic speak, or just three months of potential confusion? Rumors are flying fast: some say REF is being scrapped, others whisper about two-tier systems, and still others that the percentages on the PCE could be changed. Cue Dumbledore quotes, Russell Group conspiracy theories, and a plea not to treat researchers like battery hens.
We also get into the CKU guidance – the contribution to knowledge and understanding – and welcome the clarification that technicians, research software engineers, librarians, and other “hidden” roles can submit outputs in 2029. But will universities actually embrace this, or cling to the status quo?
And finally, excitement builds for the upcoming Festival of Hidden REF. Two days of lightning talks, workshops, and rumor-mill buzz right in the middle of the REF pause. It’s sold out, but don’t panic – a livestream is on the way. So join us for speculation, celebration, and maybe a little mischief as we unravel REF myths, spotlight hidden roles, and ask what kind of research culture we really want to build.
If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.
Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
It’s out! The CKU guidance is out! And it’s the focus of this episode.
We start with an update on our events, mainly focussing on their popularity. Both the Hidden REF Festival and the not-traditionally submitted output workshops that we ran recently at Kings and Liverpool have proven very popular.
We then discuss the guidance for the Contributions to Knowledge and Understanding (CKU) which was released on the 19th June 2025. Once again the REF have made clear their commitment that all outputs are equally important, and that outputs other than journal articles or books should be submitted. It won’t be clear which outputs will make the final list (that will happen in Autumn 2025), but the guidance indicates that the submittable outputs will be broader than the 2021 REF.
It’s not all good news. The way in which the guidance attempts to identify the people who are involved in research creates an ambiguity that could be used to exclude a lot of research-active roles. We get into a discussion about definitions of “substantive link”, “enabling research” and “role descriptor” and how their definition will be of fundamental importance to the inclusiveness of the next REF. We then venture into probability of outputs and how it will affect people: the spirit of the REF is there and the devil is in the details!
If there’s anything in the REF guidance that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch wtref@hidden-ref.org.
Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
In this episode, we kick off with a few updates and then hear about the incredible agenda planned for the Festival of Hidden REF (7-8 October in Birmingham). We are hugely excited to welcome our first guest: Marcus Munafò, Deputy Vice-Chancellor and Provost at the University of Bath and Director of the UK Reproducibility Network. He talks about his experience of the REF and its role in incentivising research behaviour, how we can improve research quality by focussing on the entire research process and not just it's final output, and the changes that will be needed if universities are to keep pace with the team-based nature of modern research.
The next episode of What the REF will be a big one! We're going to take a look at the guidance for the Contribution to Knowledge and Understanding and some of the questions that it has generated.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
In this episode, we focus on the struggle of what to call the outputs that aren't journal or book publications. We update on an article from Dame Jessica Corner on the People, Culture and Environment statement, what's happening with REF panelists and - for possibly the first time in history - use the words "secretariat" and "interesting" in the same sentence.
If you want to learn more about how you can engage with the REF, you should sign up for the Festival of Hidden REF on the 7-8 October 2025 at Thinktank, Birmingham Science Museum. The Festival focuses on sharing knowledge about non-traditional outputs and Hidden Roles, collecting new ideas and the latest developments from attendees and, most importantly, celebrating everyone who contributes to research.
If you have a question about the REF or an idea for the podcast, let us know at WTreF@hidden-ref.org, BlueSky or Linkedin.
Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Welcome to the first ever episode of What the REF?! Our attempt at demystifying everyone's favourite national research assessment exercise.
In this episode, we discuss the REF as an amazing driver of research culture change and our hopes for increasing engagement with the exercise so that we can build a research environment that is more equitable and more effective. We talk about our dream guests for future episodes, the difficulties in running an assessment that gets to the heart of what is important to research, REF myth busting, Gemma tests our knowledge of REF output categories, and we even look into how long it would take the average person to read through all of the REF guidance (spoiler: it’s about 11 days).
If you want to learn more about how you can engage with the REF, you should sign up for the Festival of Hidden REF on the 7-8 October 2025 at Thinktank, Birmingham Science Museum. The Festival focuses on sharing knowledge about non-traditional outputs and Hidden Roles, collecting new ideas and the latest developments from attendees and, most importantly, celebrating everyone who contributes to research.
If you have a question about the REF or an idea for the podcast, let us know at WTreF@hidden-ref.org, BlueSky or Linkedin.
Our hosts are James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.
Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org
'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.
Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org
WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
