This week on What the Ref, the gang (Gemma, James, and Simon) score a big guest: Lizzie Gadd, one of the UK’s most respected voices in research assessment. If you’ve ever wondered why people keep muttering about “the REF pause” like it’s a cliffhanger in a Netflix series, this episode’s for you.

Lizzie dives straight into the thorny issue of research culture—what it is, why it matters, and why simply having shiny labs and big grants doesn’t mean your environment is excellent if the culture is toxic, precarious, or exclusive. She makes the case that culture isn’t a “nice-to-have” add-on but part of research excellence itself. Hygiene factors (like reporting misconduct or tackling pay gaps), she argues, are basic standards, not gold-star achievements.

The conversation also tackles REF politics, funding pressures, and the dreaded “publish or perish” mindset. Lizzie suggests that shifting weight away from outputs could encourage team science and more honest research practices. The hosts riff on rumors, fears, and the endless semantics of REF-speak, but ultimately agree with Lizzie’s mantra: stop dithering, just get on with it, and learn as we go.

It’s a thoughtful, fun, and surprisingly hopeful chat about how the UK can build research cultures worth celebrating—not just surviving.

If there’s anything about the REF that you would like us to investigate, please get in touch with wtref@hidden-ref.org.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: James Baker, Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - and Simon Hettrick, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

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