Welcome back to What the REF?!, the only podcast where academics make bureaucracy sound almost fun. Simon, James, and Gemma welcome new team member Dr Ola Thomson, who brings both organisational-behaviour expertise and the calm assurance of someone who’s already read the entire REF guidance.

Ola compares the REF to an iceberg: what you see is a harmless evaluation exercise, but beneath lurk strategy, politics, performance management, and possibly a kraken of accountability. The hosts debate why the REF's noble pursuit of excellence ends up raising everyone’s blood pressure.

Between discussions of “research culture,” “the human element,” and whether wombats could manage universities, the team delivers surprisingly profound insights—occasionally disguised as jokes.

By the end, listeners may find themselves reconsidering their life choices, their institutional policies, and whether being “REF-able” is a compliment. The REF will find you. But at least now, you’ll understand its motives.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

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