What if the leadership frameworks we’ve relied on for decades are fundamentally broken for today’s world? In this thought-provoking conversation, Pascal sits down with Jeffrey Rogers—his collaborator of nearly a decade—to explore how leaders can navigate sustained uncertainty and systematic disruption.
Jeffrey, an expert in organizational learning and futures thinking, challenges the “Good to Great” era of one-size-fits-all leadership models. Instead, he advocates for meta-learning: the ability to learn how to learn, adapt frameworks contextually, and build organizations that can transform repeatedly. They dive deep into the tension between efficiency and experimentation, why the “middle horizon” (5-10 years) is so hard to envision, and how generative AI fits into organizational learning—spoiler: it’s not the efficiency tool you think it is.
Key Topics Covered:
In this episode, we are joined by Gero Hesse, a distinguished “Top HR Influencer” and CEO of EMBRACE, a Bertelsmann Investments company at the forefront of HR technology. Drawing from his deep expertise, Gero offers a profound perspective on how the HR industry must evolve in an era defined by constant change. The conversation delves into the pressing dichotomy of the talent shortage driven by demographic shifts versus the narrative that AI will automate countless jobs. Gero argues that while technology will inevitably replace administrative roles, it will simultaneously create new ones, shifting the core challenge to workforce transformation and reskilling. He envisions a future where HR transitions from an administrative function to a strategic one, responsible for shaping the cultural and ethical rules for a new, blended workforce of humans and machines.
Gero also shares his personal leadership philosophy, which is anchored in radical authenticity and a commitment to building long-term, trust-based relationships. He believes in being the same person at work and in his private life, a principle visibly reflected in the edgy, unconventional branding of his company and its festival-style conferences. Ultimately, Gero provides clear guidance for leaders and HR professionals: as automation handles routine tasks, the enduring value of HR will lie in its ability to manage the human side of the business. He champions a future where the focus shifts to shaping culture, fostering employee identification, and guiding technology integration in a way that amplifies human potential rather than simply replacing it.
We’re joined by John Fallon, former CEO of Pearson PLC, who led its transformation from a 175-year-old publisher to a global digital learning company. Now an author and academic, John shares insights from his new book, “Resurgent,” on how established companies can thrive amidst disruption by leaning into their core strengths while learning to be agile. He argues that a strong, unifying sense of purpose is the most critical factor in navigating the immense challenges of change.
John asserts that the “transformation” aspect of digital change is far harder than the “digital” part itself. He describes the core leadership challenge as bridging the gap between exponential technological progress and the linear way humans adapt. Success requires making change tangible and near-term, and he reframes middle managers not as a “permafrost” layer blocking change, but as the organization’s essential “shock absorbers” who translate strategy and manage the associated anxiety.
Looking ahead, John provides practical advice, from using AI as a tool to create a powerful “first draft” that human creativity can then elevate, to having the patience required for a journey that often takes over a decade. He explains that leaders must protect small, innovative initiatives with non-financial KPIs and foster a culture of continuous change, recognizing that in the modern era, you are either busy being born or busy dying.
→ John’s new book "Resurgent: How Established Organizations Can Fight Back and Thrive in an Age of Digital Transformation"
In this episode, we welcome Stefanie Klein, who leads the international initiative Women4Metals at Aurubis AG. With years of experience in the male-dominated metals industry, Stefanie is dedicated to making women in heavy industry more visible and empowered. Her work demonstrates that diversity is a business imperative, essential for driving cultural transformation across an entire sector.
Stefanie explains that the push for diversity at her company is not just a social good but a strategic necessity. It addresses the critical “war for talent” by widening the talent pool and brings diverse perspectives to the table, leading to more sustainable and robust business decisions. The core philosophy of her initiative is to “fix the system, not the women,” focusing on changing the corporate framework to be more inclusive rather than trying to change the women within it. This involves making female role models more visible to attract others and fostering genuine male allyship.
For individuals navigating their careers, especially in traditional industries, Stefanie offers clear, actionable advice. She stresses the importance of building a diverse professional network and seeking out sponsorship, noting that women are often “over-mentored but under-sponsored.” Her final guidance for young people is to remain curious, be proactive in connecting with companies, and stay open to all opportunities, particularly in STEM fields where there is immense potential for growth and impact.
In this episode, Pascal sits down with Brian Brault, a leadership development expert who runs programs at MIT with the Entrepreneurs Organization, to explore how leadership has fundamentally evolved in our rapidly changing world. Brian shares insights on the shift from traditional “smartest person in the room” leadership to emotionally intelligent, authentic leadership that prioritizes building teams and genuinely caring for people. The conversation delves into the fascinating duality modern leaders face: being vulnerable and empathetic with human teams while maintaining strict control and boundaries when managing AI agents and systems. Brian emphasizes the critical difference between “being vulnerable” and “leading with vulnerability,” explaining how authentic leaders can acknowledge uncertainty while still providing direction and commitment. The discussion covers the future of organizational structures, the continuing importance of middle management despite Silicon Valley trends, and practical advice for leaders navigating the “messy middle” of technological disruption. Brian concludes with actionable guidance for emerging and established leaders looking to adapt their leadership style, including the power of mentorship and leveraging personal strengths rather than focusing on weaknesses.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Leadership Evolution
01:10 The Shift from IQ to EQ in Leadership
04:00 Trust, Authenticity, and Stakeholder Balance
05:50 The AI Leadership Paradox: Humans vs Machines
09:17 Data Accuracy and Decision-Making in the AI Era
11:35 Outdated vs Essential Leadership Skills
12:22 Brian's Story: Learning to Lead Without All the Answers
16:17 Creating Organizations of Leaders, Not Followers
17:44 Leading Into the Unknown and Career Transitions
21:48 Building Empowered Teams and Strategic Clarity
22:15 The Future of Organizational Structure and Middle Management
26:24 Defining Vulnerable vs Leading with Vulnerability
28:57 Practical Advice for Adapting Leadership Style
33:40 Where to Find Brian and Legacy of Significance
↗ Brian's company: Legacy of Significance
↗ Connect with Brian on LinkedIn
In this episode, Pascal is joined by Scott Wingo, a pioneer in the e-commerce space, to discuss the concept of 'liminal space' and the rapid changes brought by AI and geopolitics. Scott shares his journey from growing up with a mainframe in his home to navigating the fast-paced shifts from desktop to mobile and now AI. The conversation delves into the complexities organizations face in adapting to technological advancements, highlighting Martex’s Law and the need for a non-binary approach to change. Scott explains his 70-20-10 framework developed at ChannelAdvisor to balance core business activities with innovation. The discussion also covers the future of AI-native organizations, the rise of agents in e-commerce, and how leaders can manage these agents effectively. Scott emphasizes the importance of staying updated through podcasts and other high-signal sources while also sharing insights on potential disruptions in traditional search models by AI-driven platforms.
00:00 Introduction and Liminal Space
00:59 Technological Evolution and AI
03:15 Organizational Change and Martex Law
04:15 Framework for Managing Change
07:34 AI Native Organizations
11:31 Staying Updated in a Rapidly Changing World
17:36 Diving into Agent AI in E-commerce
18:56 The Potential of Agent AI in Everyday Life
20:52 Managing a Company with AI Agents
22:06 Building an AI-Driven Organizational Structure
28:42 The Future of AI in Business Efficiency
31:26 The Shift from Google Search to AI-Powered Tools
33:58 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
↗ Scot’s new venture: ReFiBuy.ai
In this episode, the first of Season 2, Pascal welcomes Johnathan and Melissa, founders of the Raw Signal Group, to discuss the evolving landscape of management and leadership. Known for their impactful writings and expertise, Johnathan and Melissa share their insights on how leaders can navigate the turbulent shifts brought about by remote work, AI advancements, and geopolitical changes. They explore the concept of 'liminal space' in the workplace and the challenges faced by managers in constantly adapting to new norms. The conversation delves into the importance of middle management, the need for organizations to prioritize clarity and communication, and the critical role of one-on-one meetings in managing change effectively. They also highlight the pitfalls of relying solely on top-down directives and the importance of critical self-reflection for leadership development. The episode concludes with practical advice for leaders at all levels and a glimpse into the training and resources offered by the Raw Signal Group.
Raw Signal Group: ↗ https://www.rawsignal.ca
Raw Signal Group’s “The World’s Best Newsletter”: ↗ https://www.rawsignal.ca/worlds-best-newsletter/
Unmanageable - Leadership Lessons from an Impossible Year: ↗ https://www.amazon.com/Unmanageable-Leadership-Lessons-Impossible-Year/dp/0995964327/
How F*cked Up Is Your Management - An Uncomfortable Conversation About Modern Leadership: ↗ https://www.amazon.com/How-cked-Your-Management-uncomfortable/dp/0995964300
00:00 Introduction to Season Two
00:49 Meet Jonathan and Melissa
00:55 Navigating the Liminal Space
01:27 Challenges in Modern Leadership
03:22 The Human Element in Tech
05:49 The Role of Middle Management
08:48 Effective Change Management
10:53 Building Confidence in Leadership
17:37 The Importance of One-on-Ones
20:16 Overcoming Resistance to Change
24:24 Creating a Narrative Hook for Change
25:12 Responding to Overwhelming Change
25:43 The Importance of Structure in Fast-Moving Organizations
26:53 The Impact of Intentional Design in Management
29:24 The Killer Competitor Exercise
30:13 The Challenge of Stopping Activities
32:20 The Importance of Trade-offs in Management
36:07 The Future of Work and Management
44:04 Practical Advice for Leaders in Liminal Spaces
47:17 About Raw Signal Group and Conclusion
Join Pascal Finette in our dynamic bimonthly live event series to dive into the heart of innovation. Pascal engages in candid conversations with eminent experts who demonstrate progress in practice.
In our first session of 2024, we feature Aaron Frank, a longtime expert in Augmented Reality (AR), Virtual Reality (VR), and Spatial Computing. Together, we will explore the future of this field.
With the recent release of Apple's Vision Pro headset, Meta's ongoing efforts, the continuous updates to the Quest Pro hardware, and the entry of new companies into the market, this could be the moment when headset-based computing takes off – or not?!
Kacee Johnson, as the Vice President of Strategy and Innovation at CPA.com, stands out in the realm of accounting technology. Grounded in global FinTech, she pinpoints pivotal trends and forges collaborations in the sector. Celebrated by Accounting Today and CPA Practice Advisor, Kacee also ranks among the Most Powerful Women in Accounting.
In our conversation, Kacee explores the complex issues of AI integration in the accounting realm. She emphasizes the need for robust infrastructure, the recruitment of talent knowledgeable in both AI and accounting intricacies, the critical role of upholding data quality for precise financial forecasts, and the essential harmonization of AI-based strategies with overarching accounting goals and benchmarks.
In our discussion, David shares insights from years on the boards of major corporations. He urges CEOs to engage board members for strategic guidance, not just oversight. David sees board meetings as chances to focus on the future, offering strategies like independent incubators and migrating innovations from edge to core. He emphasizes selecting directors individually and fostering a strong chair-CEO relationship. For startups, he advises gradually building an advisory board of experts and wisely anticipating disruption.
With four decades of leadership experience spanning multiple industries and roles, David Beatty is a highly accomplished strategist and governance expert. He led a major North American food manufacturer, served as CEO of a closed-end investment trust, and taught strategy at Rotman School of Management. Beatty has served on 39 boards, chairing 9 public companies, and created director education programs. He focuses on helping boards and CEOs collaborate to anticipate disruption and invest time wisely. Beatty has been recognized with the Order of Canada and a lifetime achievement award from the International Corporate Governance Network.
Brant Cooper is the New York Times bestselling author of “The Lean Entrepreneur” and “Disruption Proof,” and the innovative mind behind Moves the Needle. With a rich history of transforming industrial age dynamics into digital age opportunities, Brant brings unique insights on agility, digital transformation, and how to create real value for customers amidst today’s complex and disruptive business landscape.
What happened to the glory days when scrappy startups could disrupt entire industries? Brant Cooper says those days are over – but large companies shouldn’t retreat into their innovation labs hoping for breakthroughs. Instead, they must empower diverse teams and partner with the startup community. Cooper provides a dynamic playbook to make companies “disruption proof” in this rapidly changing world. Learn how to balance exploration and execution, drive real impact, and create resilient yet adaptable organizations. A must-listen for any innovator dealing with today’s challenges!
Frederik is a renowned global thought leader and former Chief Innovation Evangelist at Google, where he led the growth of the company's innovation culture and mentored a diverse global community of over 600 Innovation Evangelists. He is an Adjunct Professor at Stanford University's d.school and teaches graduate classes on navigating ambiguity at the intersection of innovation, creativity, and design.
In our conversation Frederik and I talk about developing a future mindstate, why the future belongs to all of us and not just a few “innovators”, and his upcoming book on the topic.
Christina is the CEO of biotech startup Officinae Bio, and the former cofounder of the Innovation Lab of ViiV Healthcare, a joint venture between GSK, Pfizer, and Shionogi. Previously she held leadership positions at GSK and has spent her career at the forefront of healthcare innovation."
Repeat guest Christina, and I discuss all things leadership, how to manage successful innovation initiatives and their teams, and the pitfalls which can present themselves along the way.
Mary is Managing Partner of Bread and Butter Ventures. She began her career working on the Google IPO, and went on to lead new business development partnerships, negotiating early-stage product and technology deals worldwide. Mary served as the founding director of Google for Startups, leading the company’s global efforts to support entrepreneurs in over 100 countries. After her 15-year career at Google, Mary worked as an investment partner at Revolution’s Rise of the Rest Seed Fund, where she led dozens of investments in a range of sectors, including healthcare, enterprise software, and fintech.
In our conversation, we dig deep into the learnings from thousands of startups, explore how corporates can better partner and work with entrepreneurs and their companies, and discuss common pitfalls to avoid.
Josep heads up Innovation at Swiss-based Oberalp Group, a world leader in mountain sports equipment. Further, he is General Manager at POMOCA, the market leader ski touring skin manufacturer.
In our conversation, we explore the many lessons which can be learned from the timeless classic Swiss army knife, why sustaining innovation oftentimes trumps the perceived need for disruption, and what might be next for the outdoor sports industry.
