What does it take to deliver nation-building infrastructure in an era of political momentum, regulatory complexity, and evolving priorities? Prepare for an evocative conversation with Tim Murphy, as we explore a complex and important question for our country’s future. Tim is the Executive Vice President and Chief Strategic Affairs Officer at AECON with an illustrious 40-year career in litigation, politics, and major projects. This wide-ranging discussion is an expert look at the opportunities and obstacles shaping Canada’s infrastructure in the coming years. Tim and Riccardo unpack the interplay between political will, regulatory frameworks, Indigenous participation, and shifting public expectations. Success depends on more than funding and approvals: it calls for courage, collaboration, and a willingness to rethink entrenched models. Tim speaks to lessons learned from vertical and horizontal building projects, the complicated role of Indigenous reconciliation in project planning, and the urgent need for productivity and innovation in the construction sector. This conversation highlights both the challenges and the untapped potential of thinking—and building—bigger. Key Takeaways: - Why Canada’s current political climate creates a rare opportunity for nation-building infrastructure. - How Indigenous participation is reshaping project planning and delivery. - The unique regulatory and stakeholder challenges of vertical and horizontal infrastructure projects. - Why public-sector incentives must evolve to prioritize project success over strict contract adherence. - The role of government in driving technology adoption in construction. Quote: “To ​be ​honest ​with ​you, ​divergent ​interests ​inside ​the ​indigenous ​communities ​too. ​You'll ​have ​some ​national ​organizations ​who ​have ​certain ​kinds ​of ​views ​as ​national ​organizations, ​and ​very ​particular ​communities ​who ​are ​supportive ​of ​particular ​projects ​and ​want ​it ​to ​proceed ​because ​they ​see ​it as ​the ​chance ​for ​economic ​reconciliation, ​jobs, ​contracts, ​opportunities. ​etc. ​So ​I ​think ​there's ​a ​process ​that ​needs ​to ​happen ​to have ​those ​discussions ​at ​a outsized ​project ​specific. ​And ​then ​part ​two ​is ​the ​project ​specific. ​So ​it's ​not ​going ​to ​be ​fast.” - Tim Murphy

What does it take to thrive in the highly complex and male-dominated financial industry? This episode of Master Builder highlights the journey and achievements of Sara Alvarado, a powerhouse in infrastructure finance whose career has spanned continents, crises, and industry and policy overhauls. With co-hosts Riccardo and Shormila, Sara shares how her experience as an immigrant shaped her resilience. She details her role in defining infrastructure as an asset class in Canada and describes the unique combination of ever-growing policy and risk expertise that has kept her on a steady career trajectory for more than 30 years. From spearheading early renewable energy financing deals to helping shape global UN guidelines on digitalization and gender equality, Sara reminds us that success is driven by more than technical skills—it calls for hard work, curiosity, and passion. This conversation is an opportunity to explore the interplay of finance, infrastructure, and social impact. Sara recently received the King Charles III Coronation Medal for her sustainable finance contributions and is a true Master Builder—one who has already begun to shape her legacy. Key Takeaways: - How Canada’s early renewable energy boom helped define infrastructure finance as we know it; - The impact of the 2008 financial crisis on infrastructure as a stable, long-term investment; - Why policy, finance, and technology need to move in tandem to shape meaningful change; - The one trait Sara prioritizes over everything else when building successful teams; - A behind-the-scenes look at how UN working groups are driving global change. Quote: “I ​think ​there's ​a ​catalytic ​point. ​It ​is ​in ​our ​brains ​and ​we ​feel ​the ​need to ​do ​more. ​​So ​it's ​either ​moving ​into ​something ​different, ​moving ​into ​a ​much ​more ​senior ​role, ​decision ​maker, ​leader ​position, or ​you ​can ​move ​into ​boards. ​And ​that ​will ​come ​at ​different ​times ​for ​different ​females. ​But ​what ​I ​want ​them ​to ​know ​is, ​yes, ​there ​is ​a ​second ​career ​curve. And ​it can ​be ​hard ​because ​you're ​learning ​something ​else. But ​it ​is ​very ​rewarding. ​And ​it ​happens ​at ​a ​time ​where ​females ​are ​much ​more ​confident.” - Sara Alvarado

How do we transform infrastructure experts into infrastructure leaders in time for Canada’s building boom? Canada is facing a future of increased infrastructure projects, but the country has a poor track record when it comes to delivering major projects. In fact, “over time and over budget” is a global industry trope. In pursuit of systemic, upstream solutions, Riccardo compiles an esteemed panel of experts for a timely and critical conversation: how do we elevate the leadership of multi-billion-dollar major infrastructure programmes essential to our country’s national culture and well-being? Barriers to collaboration, differences and similarities between infrastructure programmes and corporations, the behavioural versus the technical—the industry leaders break down what’s going wrong and why we haven’t fixed it yet. Unwilling to stop at theory, the group posits and troubleshoots actionable ways governments and the private sector could work together to quickly and effectively shore up Canada’s infrastructure industry. Key Takeaways: - The theories as to why it costs more to create infrastructure in Canada; - The significant and often-ignored gap between technical, management, and leadership skill sets; - How an integrated leadership training program could elevate all levels of project management; - The impact of lackluster research into Canada’s past infrastructure successes and failures; - Utilizing AI within reason in an industry that relies on human interaction. Quote: “I ​think ​we ​can ​create ​a ​program ​that builds ​on ​the ​global ​experience ​and ​best ​practices, ​but ​also ​captures ​Canada’s ​own ​project ​delivery ​cultures, ​business ​practices, ​community ​needs, ​and ​sees ​leadership ​through ​that ​lens ​and ​enables ​us ​to ​deliver ​projects. ​But ​it's ​going ​to ​take ​governments ​coming ​on ​board and recognizing ​the ​value ​that ​it's ​not ​just ​private ​sector ​expertise ​on ​these ​projects. ​You ​don't ​just ​hand ​over ​a ​project ​and ​then ​say ​come ​back ​in ​five ​years ​and ​we'll ​cut ​the ​ribbon ​together. There's ​a ​ton ​of ​leadership ​that's ​required ​on ​the ​public ​sector ​side ​too, ​at ​the ​highest ​levels ​of ​the ​organization ​to ​make ​sure ​that ​these ​projects ​stay ​on ​track.” - Matti Siemiatycki

How does cross-over between diverse perspectives and cultures affect project delivery, and how could it be improved? In this episode of Uncharted Conversations, Shormila and Riccardo are once again joined by fellow infrastructure experts David Ho and Melissa Di Marco. Their animated discussion explores how organizational dynamics—building teams that combine both multi-service and multinational cultures—impact the successful delivery of major programmes. Jumping directly into the action items of a project, as the client often expects, is a great dopamine hit, but is it really the best approach? The self-proclaimed industry pirates call out the drawbacks of North America’s checks and balances tradition and the need for more client ownership. This episode aims the cannons at systemic assumptions and poses big questions to procurement professionals, all with the crew’s uniquely provocative and playful inspection of their industry. Key Takeaways: - The importance of aligning the values across a project and all its contributors; - Recognizing that “meaningful teaming up” takes time; - The fallout of the industry historically being so transactional and deliverable-focused; - The problem with the disconnect between who bids on the project and who ultimately delivers it; - How bringing client-side experts to the table could improve infrastructure projects. Quote: “I ​have ​never ​seen an ​RFP ​where ​the ​client who ​is ​asking ​for ​a ​description of ​a ​team ​is ​doing ​so ​with ​reference ​to ​a ​real ​understanding ​of ​how ​you, private ​sector ​company, ​​delineate ​​the ​function ​that's ​responsible ​for ​the ​delivery ​of ​a ​service ​from ​the ​function ​that ​is ​responsible ​for ​the ​P&​L ​from ​the ​way ​in ​which you ​have ​a ​team ​structured ​for ​a ​pursuit versus ​when ​you ​shift ​into ​execution. And ​even ​just ​that ​type ​of ​a ​description would ​be ​an ​interesting ​change ​I ​think ​for ​the ​better ​that ​would ​allow ​clients ​a ​more ​sophisticated ​understanding ​of ​how ​things ​work.” - David Ho

What does it take to transform a gateway station into a place where people pause in their head-down commute to connect and reflect? Riccardo Cosentino and returning co-host Corail Bourrelier Fabiani are joined by Jonathan Ring, the Development Director for London-based developer Sellar. They explore the public art programme at Paddington Square—one of the city’s most ambitious and complex redevelopment projects. Jonathan shares how the programme evolved from the early planning conditions to the final installation. His experience highlights the balance inherent in major projects, where diverse stakeholder voices, strict timelines, and logistical constraints pile on the pressure and teamwork is non-negotiable. Public art may be a smaller portion of the overall budget, but its impact on the public experience is profound. This episode offers an inside look at the creative and collaborative processes behind curating art in a heavily trafficked urban space. It is a conversation about leadership, legacy, and how the spaces we build shape how people feel. Key Takeaways - Public art may be a smaller line item, but its emotional and social impact is immense. - The earlier you integrate public art into a project’s design and planning, the smoother the process will be. - Stakeholder management is about more than communication; it calls for timing, trust, and making space for diverse opinions. - Delivering complex urban infrastructure requires balancing fixed timelines with creative possibilities. - Strong, long-term relationships with designers and collaborators make it easier to solve challenges together. - Rotating public art programs create ongoing opportunities for re-engagement and placemaking. Quote: “We're ​really ​trying ​to ​create ​a ​place ​people ​want ​to ​dwell ​in ​because ​it's ​got ​very ​interesting ​areas ​around ​it. And ​the ​public ​art ​really ​formed ​a ​major ​part ​of ​that, creating ​a ​place ​where ​people ​dwell ​in. ​What's ​great ​is ​now ​seeing ​in ​the ​summer, ​and ​I ​bet ​today, ​people ​will ​be ​sitting ​out ​in ​the ​square ​enjoying ​the ​public ​realm, ​seeing ​the ​art ​and ​enjoying ​it.” - Jonathan Ring

Can you rise up in the industry without an engineering degree? Kirsten Watson, AECOM’s Transit Market Sector Lead, is a case study in how continuous passion for learning and a celebration and honing your strengths—even when they don’t appear to be the perfect fit for a role—can lead to a varied and rewarding career. Co-hosts Riccardo and Shormila sit down with the transit executive on the interpersonal side of the industry in this episode of the Master Builder series. They break down the challenges and wins of major infrastructure projects and explore Kirsten’s career trajectory from private to public and back again. Their conversation explores the reality of the skills you really need (and don’t) for leadership, particularly as a woman in the industry. Kirsten’s background in employment law and HR have instilled in her a deep respect for listening—to clients, to stakeholders, to the smartest person in the room. As she explains, that’s how she’s become the one who brings the right people to the table, and it’s how even now, as a master builder, she leads with learning and pushes herself to say yes to even the most challenging opportunities. Key Takeaways: - Why the ability to bring people together in agreement and collaboration transcends industry; - How to challenge the misgivings of both internal and external skeptics when accepting a position in an unfamiliar field; - The truth of the often undervalued HR skillset; - The disconnect in big projects between the technology and civil components and who’s in charge of them; - The ongoing challenge of providing proof of capability again and again as a women in infrastructure. Quote: “I ​think ​that's ​what ​I ​bring ​to ​the ​table, ​is ​the ​ability ​to ​bring ​other ​people ​to ​the ​table. ​And ​when ​we're ​talking ​about women ​in ​leadership ​and ​women ​saying ​yes. Bring ​the ​right ​people ​to ​the ​table ​and ​solve ​the ​problems through ​that ​team ​and ​that ​collaboration trying ​to ​learn ​other ​bits ​of ​the ​business ​so ​that ​you ​can ​actually ​do ​that ​work.” - Kirsten Watson

Even traditional contracts can be collaborative with the right team. As a seasoned infrastructure leader who has served in government, private sector, and advisory roles for more than 15 years, Fred Antunes has seen this firsthand. His extensive experience delivering large-scale projects under P3s, design-builds, and collaborative models guides this wide-ranging and nuanced conversation with Riccardo. Together, they unpack truths and myths around what makes projects work. Fred’s real-world insights help to highlight the power owners have to shape project relationships and outcomes, the dangers of shifting risk without support, and why alliance contracts call for experienced and deeply engaged teams. Fred and Riccardo reframe collaboration beyond just a type of contract and offer up a compelling case for considering the unique needs, risks, and capabilities of each project team when choosing a delivery approach. Key Takeaways: - The right people, mindset, and approach—not the contract itself—determine whether a project is truly collaborative (and successful). - Fair and active engagement from owners through major programme challenges can mean the difference between a frictionless project and a contentious one. - When public infrastructure contracts push all risk onto the contractor, collaboration breaks down—and so does performance. - Having the right people on the team during high-stress phases can turn a failing project around, even if it means personnel changes. - Experience across public and private sectors builds a more well-rounded, adaptable perspective on project delivery. Quote: “The ​thing ​about ​the ​alliance ​that's ​really ​interesting ​is, it’s ​like ​setting ​up ​a ​new ​company. ​Where ​you ​basically have an ​alliance ​leadership ​team ​​that ​is ​providing oversight ​and ​direction. ​They're ​like ​the ​board ​of ​directors. ​You ​appoint ​somebody ​who's ​the ​CEO ​and ​then ​you ​basically ​create ​an ​organization ​that ​includes ​people ​from ​the ​owner, ​the ​designer, ​the ​contractor, ​put ​them ​together ​and ​you ​may ​have ​somebody ​from ​the ​owner's ​team ​managing ​somebody ​who's ​in ​the ​design ​team, ​or ​in ​the ​construction ​team, ​but ​they're ​all ​working ​for ​the ​best ​outcome ​of ​the ​project. ​And ​working ​as ​one ​coherent ​management ​team.” - Fred Antunes

What does it take to lead with integrity and empathy in an industry where technical expertise can quickly outweigh human connection? In this episode of the Master Builder series, Ethel Craft joins Riccardo and Shormila to reflect on a career rooted in service—from her beginnings in social services to her leadership role in Ottawa’s Rail Construction Program. Ethel shares how a leadership course during her MBA sparked her passion for mentoring others, ultimately guiding her to pursue a Doctorate in Business while working full-time. Through personal challenges, professional pivots, and academic milestones, Ethel has remained grounded in one goal: to be a role model and a connector. She leads with a deep respect for the people around her and a clear-eyed view of stakeholder relations. Her track record highlights the vital balance leaders must strike between respect for those around them and confidence that they have earned their place, regardless of the journey that brought them to the table. Within this celebration of Ethel’s achievements is an invitation to re-envision what leadership can look like, in infrastructure and beyond. Key Takeaways: - Genuine care and passion can take you further in leadership than a degree in your chosen industry. - A strong support network makes all the difference as you chase your goals through life’s inevitable challenges. - Imposter syndrome is common, even among accomplished leaders, but it shouldn’t define your path. - Seeking to be a good role model can have a significant positive influence on your path to success. - Real leadership is less about having all the answers and more about creating space for others to shine. Quote: “I ​felt ​like ​I ​was ​just ​draining ​everything ​within ​me, ​and ​at ​the ​same ​time, ​I ​needed ​to ​be ​a ​mom. ​And I ​was ​working, ​too. So, ​it ​was ​hard. ​But ​I ​had ​this ​amazing ​supervisor who ​just kept ​telling ​me, ​you ​can ​do ​this. ​Never ​putting ​pressure ​on ​me, telling ​me ​to ​take ​the ​time. ​And ​so ​when ​I ​talk ​about ​having ​a ​support ​system, ​it's ​a ​word ​that ​we ​take ​for ​granted, right? ​​But ​to ​have ​that ​network ​around ​you ​that ​makes ​you ​feel ​full ​on ​the ​inside is ​crucial.​” - Ethel Craft

Uncharted Conversations facilitates unscripted and controversial discussions aimed at disrupting the infrastructure industry. In the face of major skills shortages affecting Canada’s major programmes, Riccardo sits down with David Ho, the National Leader for Healthcare and Buildings at Accenture. What begins as a look at the skill-based industry shortcomings transforms into a nuanced conversation about cultural, structural, and leadership challenges. Is the talent shortage just about trades and technical labour, or are we also seeing a void in leadership and bold thinking? Together, David and Riccardo dig into why the industry struggles to innovate, what it would take to truly break from tradition, and how a fear-based approach to risk weakens even the most capable leaders. They explore how changing political priorities, unclear project outcomes, and resistance to outside ideas further complicate the path forward. This conversation challenges long-held assumptions and invites anyone involved at every stage of the infrastructure delivery lifecycle to have the kinds of discussions that, David and Riccardo argue, are essential to carrying the industry into the future. Key Takeaways: - Current labour shortages may be overshadowed by a systematically hindered approach to leadership. - The shift of project outcomes over time, while often unavoidable, creates missed opportunities for the implementation of new technologies. - Fear of risk is an intrinsic part of the industry’s culture, discouraging first movers and stifling the bold leadership required for innovation. - Venture capital constraints and razor-thin contractor margins leave little room for research and development. - Remote and underserved communities could be catalysts for innovation—if approached with intention. - How a uniqueness bias prompts us to reject international approaches that could help Canada adapt and improve. Quote: “I encounter lots of different infrastructure leaders and usually conversations where these individuals are reflecting on their own organizations or on other organizations. Somewhere within the diagnosis is a problem of disempowerment. And that when people and leaders are not truly empowered, they fail to live up to what are their on paper accountabilities. And lack of empowerment at all different levels of leadership causes people to put the blinders on, work in their silo and become content or comfortable being told what to do. And ​that ​is ​the ​sort ​of ​exact ​​opposite ​type ​of ​outcome ​and ​behaviour ​we ​want ​from leaders.” - David Ho

How do we build better cities that hold community in as high regard as revenue? It starts with an approach to urban infrastructure that goes beyond roads and bridges. In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo sits down with Matti Siemiatycki, Director of the Infrastructure Institute and a professor at the University of Toronto. Matti draws from both his academic work and practical involvement in major projects to outline the potential of community impact, intentional design, and interdisciplinary collaboration. The right balance of these components can change the way cities are built and expand their positive impacts exponentially. From reimagining schools and fire stations as mixed-use spaces to championing health-oriented communities, Matti offers a compelling argument for infrastructure that does more than meet technical needs. He explains why universities are uniquely positioned to support community-driven projects, how the Infrastructure Institute leverages academic insight into real-world support, and why we need a mindset shift to make the most of aging public assets. With case studies that range from TIFF Bell Lightbox to stacked fire stations, this episode challenges conventional thinking. Matti designs a hopeful vision for what’s possible when planners, policymakers, and local communities work together by design. Key Takeaways: -The measures that can mitigate the long-held divide between academic research and infrastructure practice. -How mixed-use public buildings can maximize land value and community benefit when intentionally designed. -The vital support role universities can play by helping non-profits and public agencies navigate complex early-stage urban planning work. -Where social-purpose infrastructure has moved beyond the theoretical into tangible action in Canada. -Why rethinking underutilized land and public assets isn’t just about financial return—it’s a matter of long-term social value and good land stewardship. Quote: “I've become really engaged on this idea that we can build schools differently and that you can have a stack school. Reimagining what a mixed use school might look like. You have to make sure that the building is safe and that there's no unsupervised access between the different uses. There's always questions about where the schoolyard is going to go. Because a lot of the communities we're building now are very dense and so there's questions about like, can you have some part of the school yard on the roof of the building, for example, so it's a shared use. How does the housing actually fit up above and how do they access it?" - Matti Siemiatycki

What does it take to lead major programmes in one of the world’s most complex, highly regulated, and rapidly evolving sectors? Carol Tansley has built a career doing just that. In this episode of the Master Builder series, she joins Riccardo to talk about her unconventional path to leadership in the nuclear industry. Carol takes listeners through her early days in international consulting, a transformative period working in Saudi Arabia, up to her current role spearheading major nuclear projects at X-Energy in Maryland. Carol offers a candid look at what it means to lead with strategy and humility. She shares how returning to school mid-career helped sharpen her focus and how stakeholder alignment is the biggest differentiator of success. They also explore why complex infrastructure projects demand more than technical skills—genuine engagement, curiosity, and a deep respect for collaboration are equally essential. Whether you’re already in the field or considering your options in programme management, Carol’s humble and holistic perspective is a powerful reminder of how valuable and versatile project leadership can be. Key Takeaways Strong project leadership is powered by vision, adaptability, and people skills, as much or more than by technical knowledge. How unfamiliar or challenging environments can accelerate your leadership growth if you focus on creating value for others. The factors shaping nuclear energy’s resurgence, from policy to AI and decarbonization. The importance of minimizing first-time risks in successful major programme management. The truth of infrastructure projects: it is less about individual brilliance and more about coordinated collaboration across hundreds of contributors. Quote: “But ​I ​would ​say, ​you ​know, ​from ​an ​early ​stage ​in ​my ​career, ​I ​think ​the ​thing ​you ​learn ​more ​than ​anything ​is, ​I'll ​call ​it ​stakeholder ​management, ​for ​want ​of ​a ​more delicate ​expression. ​You ​know, ​the ​ability ​to ​be ​able ​to ​help ​people. ​I ​mean, ​something ​somebody ​told ​me ​years ​and ​years ​ago, ​and ​this ​wasn't ​even ​in ​a ​work ​context, ​was ​when ​there's ​somebody ​standing ​in ​front ​of ​you, ​what ​you ​should ​do ​is ​look ​and ​think, ​how ​can ​I ​help ​this ​person? ​And ​I ​think ​if ​you ​bring ​that ​kind ​of ​mindset, ​you ​know, ​what ​can ​you ​do ​to ​try ​and ​make ​everybody ​else ​successful? ​That ​really ​helps. An ​ability ​to think ​about ​how ​you ​add ​value on ​other ​people's ​terms, ​not ​just ​what ​is ​valuable ​in ​your ​context. ​And ​I ​feel ​like ​that, that ​has ​served ​me ​quite ​well ​wherever ​I've ​been. ​You ​know, ​ability ​to. ​And ​the ​willingness ​to ​listen ​and ​understand ​what ​it ​is ​other ​people ​are needing ​and ​what ​will ​help ​them ​to ​be ​successful.” - Carol Tansley

In the second installment of this two-part series on public–private partnerships (P3s), Riccardo and his expert guests move from theory to practice, digging into the real-world complexities and nuances that make or break these projects. Emily Moore (University of Toronto), Pouya Zangeneh (University of Calgary), and Rob Pattison (Rob Pattison Consulting) return to share lessons from the field and reflections on how innovation, collaboration, and contract design shape project outcomes. Together, they explore why achieving true output-based specifications is so challenging in regulated environments, when P3s work best for complex projects, and how to balance innovation with safety and quality. The conversation also delves into the human factors behind success: how courage, trust, and integrity influence outcomes far more than contract structures alone. From navigating biases in project estimation to building the conditions for genuine collaboration, this episode offers a candid look at what it takes to deliver high-quality infrastructure through public–private partnerships today. Key Takeaways -The fine line between reality and expectation in output-based specifications. -Cutting corners is a false economy, but owners and contractors can still explore feasible ways to save time and money. -The real differences between collaborative and alliance versus P3 models. -The conclusions to be drawn from examining the first wave of P3 and linear projects in Canada. -The huge impact of having courage and character in this industry. Quote “I'm ​first ​and ​foremost a ​contracts ​person, ​and ​I ​love ​contracts ​and ​I ​believe ​in ​freedom ​of ​contract. Freedom ​of ​contract ​​means, ​at ​its ​heart, ​the ​freedom ​to ​make ​what ​might ​appear ​to ​others ​​to ​be ​a ​bad ​deal, right? ​So ​let ​me ​offer ​the ​three ​of ​you ​a ​deal. I'm ​going ​to ​pay ​you, ​I ​don't ​know, ​a ​thousand ​bucks ​a ​year. ​And ​if ​I ​get ​drunk ​and ​fall ​asleep ​smoking ​in ​my ​bed, ​you're ​going ​to ​build ​me ​a ​new ​house ​for ​a ​couple ​of ​million ​bucks, anybody ​want ​to ​sign ​that ​contract ​with ​me, right? ​You'd ​be ​crazy ​to. ​That's ​a ​crazy ​contract, right? ​But ​my ​insurance ​company ​does ​that ​for ​me. ​They ​take ​that ​bet ​and ​they ​make ​a ​bucket ​of ​money ​doing ​it. Maybe ​not ​these ​days, ​but, ​you ​know, ​traditionally, ​that's ​a ​contract ​that ​looks ​ridiculous ​on ​its ​face, and ​yet ​it ​works.” - Rob Pattison

Public–private partnerships (P3s) have long been used as a tool for delivering complex infrastructure projects in Canada, but the landscape is changing. In this episode, Riccardo and his panel of experts explore how P3s have evolved and what that means for today’s projects, funding models, and risk-sharing dynamics. In this two-part series, Emily Moore (University of Toronto), Pouya Zangeneh (University of Calgary), and Rob Pattison (Rob Pattison Consulting) bring industry, academic, and legal perspectives to the conversation. Together, they unpack how shifting risk appetites, funding structures, and partner roles are reshaping both the potential and the challenges of using P3s. From the financial nuances of availability versus revenue deals to the often-overlooked behavioural impacts of changing equity stakes, this discussion offers timely insights for anyone curious about what makes these partnerships succeed or fail. Key Takeaways -How project decisions, such as the approach to liquidated damages, change based on whether a project is privately or publicly funded. -The various dynamics and incentives in revenue deals and availability deals. -How equity plays into the outcomes of P3 projects, both beneficially and detrimentally. -How misaligned motivations, externally or internally, can complicate or even derail a project. -The history and practice of honourariums and bid fees during project bidding. Quote “Any ​contractor ​that ​they're ​going ​to ​hire ​is completely ​independent. ​They're ​a ​third ​party. ​And ​so ​if ​to ​protect ​your ​equity ​as ​the ​owner ​and ​if ​to ​protect ​the ​business, ​you've ​got ​to ​bankrupt ​your ​contractor, ​well, ​you ​know, ​you ​won't ​have ​qualms ​about ​that. ​I ​mean, ​other ​than ​as ​a ​sort ​of ​human ​being ​walking ​around ​on ​this ​planet. ​But ​from ​a ​financial ​perspective, ​you ​won't ​have ​any ​qualms ​about ​that ​because ​your ​only ​relationship ​is ​that ​contract ​and ​you've ​got ​securities ​and ​you've ​got ​this ​and ​that ​and ​you've ​got ​the ​other ​thing. ​And ​the ​interesting ​thing ​in ​a ​P3 ​is ​if ​everybody ​in ​that ​family ​has ​their ​own ​P ​and ​L ​and ​if ​they ​take ​it ​to ​the ​logical ​extension, ​and ​Ricardo, ​you'll ​correct ​me, ​but ​if ​you're ​a ​public ​company, every ​officer ​of ​that ​company ​who's ​got ​a ​P ​and ​L ​has ​a ​fiduciary ​duty ​to ​deliver ​for ​the ​public ​company. ​And ​well, ​my ​responsibility ​is ​my ​P ​and ​L. ​And ​if ​protecting ​my ​P ​and ​L ​means ​bankrupting ​another ​division, ​actually ​that's ​what ​I ​got ​to ​do ​unless ​the ​board ​wants ​to ​overrule ​me.” - Rob Pattison

Welcome to Uncharted Conversations, a new Navigating Major Programmes series designed to disrupt industry thinking one unscripted conversation at a time. In each episode, the panelists bring their diverse perspectives to the table as self-dubbed industry pirates, adopting a mercenary approach to calling out industry challenges. Up first: collaborative contracts. David Ho is the National Leader of Healthcare and Buildings for Accenture. Melissa Di Marco is a Partner and specialist in Project Advisory and Disputes at Accuracy. Shormila Chatterjee is the Vice President of EY. Together, these experienced programme professionals discuss the complexities of collaborative contracting in the infrastructure sector, including often-seen core competency shortcomings and the importance of empowering the right decision makers. Too often, collaboration is misconstrued as the project goal when it is, in fact, merely one possible vehicle. This conversation delves into market participation, trust issues and risk allocation, and why technical skill shouldn’t top the recruitment checklist. Decision-making, competency, and governance are painstakingly dissected in this no-holds-barred discussion that highlights the problems not with collaborative contracts themselves but with the assumption that choosing this model will fix all the problems. Join these leaders as they explore why the infrastructure industry might be ready for a seismic systemic shift. Takeaways: Why every organization’s first question should be whether they have the skills to manage a collaborative contract. The dangers of assuming a collaborative contract will automatically be easier and mitigate risk. The need for a strong collection of capable people around the table for any programme model to succeed. How systems and governance can be structured with empowerment in mind. The soft skills that are essential, and more important than technical experience, for true collaboration. Quote: “The idea ​will ​be ​to enter ​into ​a ​process ​with ​a ​winning ​counterparty. ​We ​can ​call ​them ​whatever ​we ​want, ​development ​partner, ​whatever ​it ​might ​be. But ​that ​period ​of ​dialogue ​and ​iteration,​ ​if ​it ​is ​prescribed ​by ​an ​even ​more ​detailed ​rulebook, in ​my ​mind, ​it ​doesn't ​matter ​if ​the ​end ​of ​that ​rulebook ​still ​doesn't ​have ​a ​fixed ​price. ​All ​you're ​doing ​is ​layering ​on ​a ​set ​of ​rules ​that ​is ​now ​a ​wholly ​dependent ​upon ​the ​behavioural ​interpretations ​of ​the ​people ​playing ​the ​game. ​And ​if ​the ​behavioural ​interpretation ​is, ​I'm ​going ​to ​use ​the ​rules ​to ​my ​advantage ​to ​exploit ​your ​bad ​writing ​of ​the ​rules, ​or ​I'm ​going ​to ​use ​the ​rules ​to ​my ​advantage ​to ​compel ​you ​to ​obey ​no ​matter ​what. ​Then ​forget ​it. ​It's ​not ​collaborative. ​It ​is ​just ​a ​more ​involved ​rule ​book ​​for ​less ​certainty ​of ​outcome.” - David Ho

How is urban art developed in cooperation with planners, developers, and architects? Public art is designed to be viewed and enjoyed from many angles. Riccardo embraces this 360-degree perspective in this episode by examining a component of major programmes that is not often explored: the development of the impressive art installations on display in many public buildings. He speaks with Corail Bourrelier Fabiani, a former host of the podcast and the passionate programme manager behind London’s Shard and Paddington Square sculptures. Corail outlines the intricate relationship between public art and major urban developments in the city, from why it’s so important to inspire ongoing wonder in our concrete jungles to the challenges of getting involved late in the development process. Her experiences highlight the importance of stakeholder collaboration and the many moving parts that must be navigated to create something beautiful, lasting, and welcoming for tourists and residents alike—something that helps define the fabric of the city around us. Takeaways: -The humanizing impact of interacting with public art. -The complex process of stakeholder management and artistic team selection. -The benefits of enthusiastic architect and engineer buy-in on an art installation. -The technical, structural, and visual challenges inherent in making public art decisions at the end of development. Quote: “There ​are ​a ​lot ​of ​sculptures ​around ​us ​that ​we, ​after ​a ​while, ​we ​don't ​even ​see. ​And ​I ​would ​say, ​like, ​it's ​true. ​It's ​true ​with ​a ​lot ​of ​the ​urban ​fabric ​that ​when ​you ​get ​used ​to ​something, ​you ​just ​stop ​like ​looking ​at ​it. ​If ​you ​take ​the ​tube ​in ​Paris, ​for ​example, ​like ​the ​very ​old ​entrances ​to ​the ​tube ​with ​like ​the ​lights ​and ​the ​way ​they're ​shaped, ​etc. ​This ​kind ​of ​Art ​Deco, ​like, ​beautiful ​entrance. ​Most ​people ​don't ​even see ​them ​anymore, ​you ​know. ​Or ​if ​you ​walk ​along ​alongside ​the ​Thames ​and ​you ​go closer ​to ​the ​Tate, ​you ​would ​see ​these ​lamp​posts ​that ​have ​big ​fish ​at ​the ​bottom ​of ​them ​that ​are, ​you ​know, ​around ​the ​lamppost. ​And ​a ​lot ​of ​people, ​because ​we're ​so. ​There ​are ​so ​many ​images, ​etc, ​or ​we're ​too ​much ​into ​our ​own ​world, ​like ​thinking ​about ​our ​issues, ​our, ​like ​our ​next ​meeting, ​et ​cetera, ​we ​just ​walk ​past ​them ​without ​even ​noticing ​what's ​around ​us. ​And ​I ​think ​art, ​​the ​magic ​of ​art ​is ​that ​sometimes ​it ​grabs ​your ​attention, ​you ​don't ​know ​why, ​and ​it ​makes ​you ​stop ​for ​a ​second ​and ​realize ​that ​your ​surroundings, ​or ​be ​completely ​amazed ​that ​you ​notice ​that ​element.” - Corail Bourrelier Fabiani

What does the future of construction technology hold for industry and investors? Through more than a decade of work in construction tech and AEC-focused venture capital, Alice Leung has seen much of the technology being developed for construction in recent years, as well as the challenges forward-thinking tech startups face as they pursue adoption and implementation of their software within this hard-to-crack industry. Navigating Major Programmes delves into the past, present, and future of construction technology as Riccardo speaks with Alice about the sector’s opportunities and limitations. They discuss the importance of sector expertise in venture capital, the evolution of AEC technology, and the impact of delivery models on technology adoption. Their conversation explores the significance of collaboration and the impact technology can have on this approach, as well as incentive alignment and the potential of robotics in addressing labour shortages. Alice’s take on cultural shifts that could lead to tech adoption and improve the safety and efficiency of building projects is both realistic and optimistic, emphasizing the rewarding nature of building long-lasting infrastructure. Takeaways: -The productivity and efficiency challenges inherent in traditional construction projects. -The history of AEC investment and how venture capitalists and experienced industry professionals can work together. -The importance of pursuing innovation in construction technology. -How incentive alignment could help drive collaboration in construction. -Why robotics might be the answer to some of the industry’s biggest challenges. Quote: “I ​think, ​you ​know, ​when ​you, there's ​a ​lot ​of, ​kind ​of ​different ​angles ​and ​different problems ​where ​you ​can ​really ​see ​this, right? ​One ​of ​​my ​favourite ​examples ​is ​obviously ​around ​BIM ​and VEC, ​right? ​Like, ​BIM ​has ​been ​around ​for ​a ​long ​time. ​Why ​hasn't ​it ​truly ​been ​adopted, right? ​And ​in ​theory you ​should ​have ​this ​federated ​model ​that ​everyone ​can ​leverage, right? ​That's ​the ​goal, ​right? ​Is ​like, ​you ​have ​this ​one ​single ​source ​of ​truth ​with ​everything ​that ​you ​need ​obviously ​to ​different ​complexities ​across ​the ​supply ​chain. ​But ​let's ​just ​pretend ​that ​we're ​in ​this ​perfect ​world ​right ​now ​where ​we ​have ​that ​fully ​coordinated ​model, ​everything ​makes ​sense. ​If ​we ​build ​off ​of ​it, ​we ​won't ​have ​any ​rework. ​We ​shouldn't ​have ​that ​many ​issues ​in ​the ​field. ​But ​if ​you ​think ​about ​just ​pure, ​if ​this ​was ​fixed ​price, ​contract, design, ​bid ​build ​with ​BIM, why ​does ​that ​fail? ​Because everyone ​needs ​a ​different ​level ​of ​detail. ​Everyone ​wants ​to ​maybe ​add ​or ​use ​different ​data ​in ​those ​models and ​to ​get ​to ​a ​model ​that ​is accurate ​enough ​for ​construction, ​you're ​really ​asking ​the ​design ​teams ​to ​put ​in ​so ​much ​more ​effort ​than ​really ​what ​they ​normally ​do. I ​think ​this ​is ​all ​about ​incentive ​alignment. ​And ​with ​the ​traditional ​contracting ​methods ​it's ​like, ​oh, ​why ​would ​I ​add ​more ​detail ​in ​my ​goodwill ​to ​help ​this ​other ​company ​who ​may ​​mess ​me ​up ​in ​the ​future, ​right?” - Alice Leung

How does a master insurance executive balance globe-trotting, raising a family, and pursuing meaningful projects? In this episode of the Master Builder series, Shormila explores the realities of professional and personal life in the C-suite with Sarah Roberts, the president of INTECH Risk Management. Sarah delves into the history of insurance, both her own and how this vital component of infrastructure projects first came to be. In an industry that is evolving due to increased global and climate change demands, clear communication, public-private partnerships, and professional liability insurance as a whole have never been more important—but they’re only part of the story. Sarah’s intricate balance of career and family life is relatable or aspirational to so many. It highlights a dedication to both her chosen industry and personal passions, from overseeing risk management projects around the world to the challenges and rewards of being a working mother in two countries. Key Takeaways: -The importance of professional liability insurance in infrastructure. -The significance of breaking down “insurance speak” in client relationships. -The intriguing history of insurance and the rise of women in the industry. -The rewarding challenges of balancing family and career across continents. -The positive impact of diverse perspectives on infrastructure projects. “I ​think ​probably ​that ​sort ​of ​​light ​bulb ​moment ​for ​me ​was, ​probably ​sitting ​in ​a ​meeting ​one ​day, ​and ​you ​had ​the ​insurance ​brokers ​and ​you ​had ​claims ​adjusters ​and ​they ​were ​all ​talking ​insurance ​speak ​to ​one ​of ​our ​clients. ​And ​you ​could ​just ​see ​them ​all ​sitting ​there, ​five ​of ​them ​with ​their ​eyes ​completely ​glazed ​over, ​having ​no ​idea ​what ​was ​going ​on. And ​I ​sort ​of ​stepped ​in ​and ​I ​said ​we ​need ​to ​speak ​English ​to ​people, right? ​And ​you ​know, ​it's ​great ​to ​throw ​around ​all ​the ​terminology ​and ​I ​am ​the ​biggest ​insurance ​geek. ​So ​you ​get ​me ​on ​the ​phone ​with ​insurance ​people ​​and ​that's ​what ​we ​will ​speak, ​acronyms ​just ​like ​engineers ​will, right? We ​will, ​we ​will ​speak ​all ​of ​that ​sort ​of ​insurance ​ease ​that's ​there. ​But ​when ​you're ​talking ​to ​a ​layperson, ​it ​doesn't ​mean ​anything ​to them.” - Sarah Roberts

What does it mean to build infrastructure that goes beyond causing or just avoiding friction with the policy side of the table? In this episode, David Ho—former lawyer, infrastructure strategist, and seasoned capital program and project manager—joins Riccardo to discuss how major projects are shaped not only by procurement models but by the complex, nuanced world of policy-making. David has experience in helping stakeholders understand the limits of doing everything at once and the possibilities that emerge when we confront different questions. From collaborative contracting models to data governance in healthcare infrastructure, he challenges them to think beyond technical fixes and ask, What’s the real problem we’re solving for? The relationship between infrastructure professionals and policymakers should involve informing policy, not just executing it. David and Riccardo explore why infrastructure can struggle to keep pace with need and the role risk aversion plays in enacting change. ”It's ​like ​we ​didn't ​examine ​what ​were ​the ​original ​root ​cause ​problems ​that ​were ​driving ​us ​to ​what ​we've ​been ​feeling ​and ​seeing ​in ​the ​last ​few ​years. ​And ​by ​that ​I ​mean ​what ​are ​both ​the ​political ​and ​market ​dynamics ​that ​are ​bigger ​than ​just ​us, ​uh, ​in ​the ​infrastructure ​space? ​I'll ​speak ​for ​what ​I ​see ​in ​Ontario, ​in ​Canada, ​because ​I ​obviously ​know ​that ​best. ​But ​I, ​I ​have ​a ​suspicion ​this ​is ​very, ​very ​similar ​in ​other ​places ​around ​the ​world. ​If ​you ​ask ​people, ​you ​know, ​why ​are ​we ​going ​into ​a ​collaborative ​model, ​by ​the ​way? ​You ​know, ​whatever ​your ​working ​definition ​of ​collaborative ​or ​progressive ​actually ​means, ​I ​think ​you ​would ​get ​a ​lot ​of ​different ​answers ​of ​what ​people ​are ​trying ​to ​solve ​for. ​And ​none ​of ​them ​are ​necessarily ​wrong. ​But ​if ​you ​add ​them ​together,​sometimes ​we ​try ​and ​be ​too ​intellectually ​precise. ​We ​talk ​about ​risk, ​actually ​we ​talk ​about ​risk ​a ​lot, ​but ​we ​don't ​talk ​about ​market ​forces ​and ​dynamics ​and ​we ​don't ​talk ​about ​political ​pressures other ​than ​to ​just ​be ​really ​negative ​about ​them, ​but ​they're ​actually ​real.” - David Ho

In engineering today, more and more people are choosing the generalist route, often pivoting off that solid, multi-faceted educational foundation into different fields. But what happens when you take the opposite route, honing in to pursue an aspect of your work that truly drives your passion? In today’s episode of Navigating Major Programmes, hosts Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee speak with a Master Builder who did just that. After spending her early years on industrial projects, Wendy Itagawa returned to school for a Master’s in structural engineering, focusing on bridge design. Today, she serves as the Executive Director of Vancouver’s Pattullo Bridge Replacement Project, of which she’s been an integral part for more than seven years. She shares how working with and leading teams through the whole lifecycle of projects impacts how she views the work she has completed on some of the country’s most high-profile transportation initiatives. ”I ​really ​believe ​that ​even ​if ​it's ​a ​design ​build ​contract, ​it ​doesn't ​necessarily ​mean ​you ​don't ​have ​to ​be ​in ​one ​of ​these ​progressive ​collaborative ​models. ​So ​really ​comes ​down ​to ​the ​relationship ​and ​helping, ​helping ​each ​other. ​And ​I ​think ​sometimes ​what ​I've ​seen ​is, ​you ​know, ​owners ​or ​on ​their ​team ​that ​too ​almost ​afraid ​of ​helping ​too ​much ​or ​because ​you're ​afraid ​of ​getting ​claims ​or ​creating ​too ​many ​changes. ​But ​I ​think ​it ​actually ​prevents ​that ​and ​you ​know, ​claims ​are ​going ​to ​happen ​either ​way. ​So, ​but ​you ​can ​mitigate ​impacts ​a ​lot ​more ​if ​you ​do ​work ​collaboratively ​because ​you ​can ​sometimes ​reduce ​the ​time ​and, ​and ​costs ​if ​you ​work ​together ​on ​it. ​So ​yeah, ​I ​think ​sometimes ​being ​like ​that ​hands ​off ​owner ​approach ​is ​not, ​is ​not ​helpful.” - Wendy Itagawa

How can teams take the concept of collaboration beyond lip service and virtue signalling to create stronger, more successful projects? We know that collaboration is the cornerstone of alliance contracting models, but countless research shows us that when it comes to behavioural cohesion, teamwork, and empathy, the type of contract is immaterial—collaborative teams across industries and contract type perform better, see greater successes, and save more money than teams built on competition and infighting. Emily Mahoney and Sarah Laurence, the founders of Mahoney & Matthews Consulting, work with high-performance teams, not only preparing them for the behavioural assessment that will win the project but also instilling the tenets of collaboration to carry all the way through to a successful culmination. Creating a true team takes more than a couple of nights out at the pub. It calls for hard, intentional conversations, deep honesty, and being human. “So ​if ​you ​think ​about ​it, ​all ​leadership ​really ​is, ​is ​a ​set ​of ​behaviours ​that ​are ​used ​in ​a ​certain ​way. ​And ​it's ​not ​exactly ​the ​same ​behaviours ​as ​collaboration. ​They ​can ​obviously, ​they ​obviously ​overlap ​a ​lot. ​But ​collaboration ​as ​well ​is ​a ​set ​of ​behaviours ​that ​are ​used ​in ​certain ​ways. ​So ​in ​terms ​of organizational ​development ​​or ​psych ​behaviours, ​there ​is ​a ​canon ​of ​research ​and ​of ​literature ​and ​there ​are ​people ​who ​spend ​a ​lot ​of ​time ​and ​money ​not ​only ​researching ​these ​things, ​but ​also ​making ​them ​accessible ​to ​people ​through ​books, ​podcasts, ​TED ​talks, ​etc.” - Emily Mahoney