In this episode I chat to Anne Marie Kavanagh (PhD, FHEA). Anne Marie’s episode is called Decolonising the curriculum: Creating a more inclusive, diverse, and critically-engaged approach to education. We discuss the concept of decolonizing the curriculum and its importance in creating a more inclusive and diverse educational approach and Anne Marie explains that decolonizing involves questioning what counts as knowledge and whose knowledge is centralized in the curriculum. Anne Marie is Assistant Professor in Ethical and Intercultural Education in the School of Human Development, DCU Institute of Education. She teaches and researches in the areas of ethical education, social justice education, intercultural education, climate justice education and human rights education.  She is the DCU-lead on the ‘Literature Review on Intercultural Education’ funded by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, which will inform the development of revised Intercultural Education Guidelines for use across the education continuum. She is currently collaborating with partners at Newcastle University and the University of Northumbria along with Prof Audrey Bryan on a British Academy funded research project, ‘Classrooms for Climate Justice’. This action research project focuses on how teachers can be supported to incorporate climate justice perspectives into primary and post-primary education. She is an active member of the Faculty Research Committee, the Publication Action Plan sub-committee, and the Faculty Athena Swan Assessment Team. She is a member of the steering committee of the DCU Centre for Human Rights and Citizenship Education (CHRCE) and a member of the DCU Anti-Bullying Centre. In 2021, her first co-edited book (with Prof Fionnuala Waldron & Dr Benjamin Mallon) 'Teaching for Social Justice and Sustainable Development Across the Primary Curriculum' was published by Routledge. This volume supports educators in integrating meaningful education for social justice and sustainability across a wide range of curricular subjects at primary level. Her co-edited book ‘Beyond Single Stories: Changing Narratives for a Changing World’ was published in 2024 by Information Age Publishing and explores the importance of counter narratives to balance dominant social group stories in the curriculum and chapters feature examples of how to disrupt dominant curricular narratives and support teachers in incorporating diverse perspectives.  In this podcast episode, Dr. Kavanagh emphasizes the need for small steps, such as diversifying teaching materials and including authors with diverse identities in reading materials. Anne Marie also discusses an E-Learning Module she developed for ETB school staff, to support students and families from diverse social class, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds. The module addresses the value of equality and potential biases towards certain groups and includes stories that shape students' access to opportunities and successful outcomes, and the impact of biases on students and teachers. Anne Marie holds numerous leadership roles including leading DCU’s work on the Advisory Committee for the Framework for the Recognition of Qualification to Teach Ethical, Multi-Belief and Values Education (Educate Together & ETBI), a framework of recognition of qualification to teach ethical, multi-belief, and values education (EMBVE). The framework aims to support teacher education providers in developing programs to certify teachers qualified outside of Ireland to teach the patrons curriculum in educate together and community national schools. Anne Marie emphasizes the importance of relationships in teaching and the need to balance technological advancements with the human element of education. Anne Marie raises concerns about the ethical implications of generative AI in education, particularly regarding access and perpetuation of biases. Tune in to hear more!

In this episode I speak to Dr. Alison Egan in an episode entitled Navigating the Third Space in Higher Education Institutions where we discuss the concept of the "third space" in higher education, which is the juxtaposition of academic and administrative roles. Alison Egan, PhD is a Director of IT & eLearning at Marino Institute of Education, Dublin, Ireland since 2008.  Her research interests are focused on digital literacy; artificial intelligence, technological self-efficacy; national and international digital education policies and technology enhanced learning. She completed her PhD in 2018 at Trinity College Dublin, by conducting longitudinal quantitative research into how technology was used by pre-service teachers during their undergraduate programmes. She is Vice-President of the Irish Learning Technology Association (ILTA) and Chair of the Consultative Council of Society for IT in Teacher Education (SITE), USA.   She highlights the challenges for professional staff in gaining recognition and promotion and she emphasizes the importance of professional staff having both administrative and academic informed practice. Alison emphasises the importance of technology in education and the need for technological self-efficacy among pre-service teachers. She also discusses her PhD on technology use by pre-service teachers, the impact of COVID-19 on online learning, and ongoing research on technological self-efficacy and AI in education.  Alison shares her career journey, starting with her initial interest in law and leading onto roles in English and French studies, her early work in a virus reference lab and subsequent roles at the Irish League of Credit Unions, Chambers of Commerce, and the Law Society, highlighting her focus on technology and training. We discuss the importance of technology in education, particularly in bridging the confidence and competence gap among pre-service teachers. Alison highlights the role of context in shaping the use of technology by teachers and the challenges faced by pre-service teachers. She explains the concept of technological self-efficacy and how it impacts the use of technology in the classroom. We discuss the importance of equity of access to technology in education, both historically and in the context of online learning. She discusses her current research interests, including technological self-efficacy measurement, AI glossary for educators, and digital competencies. Alison emphasizes the importance of critical thinking skills and digital literacy in the context of AI and technology and the role of technology in enhancing learning and the importance of providing multiple modes of delivery for learners. Alison highlights the role of technology in making education more democratic and accessible to a wider audience.  Alison discusses the future of technology in education, including the potential impact of AI and the need for critical thinking skills and the importance of equity of access to technology and the role of educators in ensuring that technology is used effectively. We reflect on the rapid changes in technology and the need for educators to stay informed and adapt to new developments and the role of teachers in shaping the use of technology in education and the importance of trusting teachers to make informed decisions.  Alison talks about the challenges faced by teachers in integrating technology into their teaching and the importance of providing support and emphasizes the need for a collaborative approach that involves teachers, administrators, and third space professionals in shaping educational technology. A really interesting episode that spotlights the importance of navigating the third space in Higher Education Institutions and the importance of research-informed practice and the role of third space professionals in supporting educational innovation.

In this episode I speak to Niall Mulpeter in an episode entitled From Policy to Practice: Enacting Values in Publicly Managed Schools through Communities of Practice and Professional Learning Communities. Niall is an Educational Policy and Development Officer with Education and Training Boards Ireland (ETBI) and a final-year PhD scholar at the University of Limerick School of Education. With over 20 years of experience in education, Niall’s expertise lies in Values Education, Curriculum Development, and the enactment of values-based policy in schools—areas in which he has been published. Niall explains his interest in sociology of education, focusing on educational structures, policies, and student learning, identity, and inclusion. Before joining ETBI, Niall worked as a full-time advisor with Junior Cycle for Teachers (JCT) and as an associate with the Professional Development Service for Teachers (PDST), contributing to curriculum reform and teacher professional learning. A post-primary teacher of Music and Religious Education, Niall brings a deep understanding of classroom practice to his policy and research work.   In his current role with ETBI, Niall has led the development of the Identity, Multi-Belief, and Values Education (IMBVE) curriculum, which articulates the values of publicly managed schools. He also supports the enactment of the ETBI Patrons' Framework on Ethos and leads several communities of practice in this space. A highly experienced teacher educator, he provides professional development for senior leaders and teachers across the ETB sector.   Niall highlights his role in developing the ETBI Patrons Framework, a policy document articulating the core values of ETB schools. He also emphasizes the importance of collaboration and communities of practice in translating policy into practice. He discusses his PhD research on curriculum development and policy enactment, and his involvement in various research projects, including the Belong to Advisory Committee and the COST Action Group on Religious Identity, Bullying, and Well-being at Schools.  He emphasizes the importance of translating policy into meaningful action and the role of collaboration in making policy work at the school level. Niall highlights the ETBI Patrons Framework, published in 2022, which articulates the core values of ETB schools. He discusses the role of communities of practice and professional learning communities in supporting the enactment of the framework. We discuss the challenges of implementing policies in diverse school contexts, referencing Stephen Ball's theory on policy enactment. He explains the four contexts of policy enactment: situated, professional, material, and external.He emphasizes the importance of ongoing adaptation and resource development to reflect changes in the political, economic, and social climate. Niall explains Wenger's theory of communities of practice, focusing on the domain, community, and practice dimensions and he shares his journey towards completing a PhD on curriculum development, community practice, and policy enactment under the supervision of his supervisors, Dr Joanne Flaherty and Dr Orla McCormack in University of Limerick. Niall's research focuses on the development of the Identity, Multi Beliefs, and Values Education (IMBVE) curriculum. He highlights the importance of advocacy and systematic change in supporting inclusive education policies.Niall reflects on the potential and challenges of generative AI in education, emphasizing the importance of keeping educators abreast of technological advancements. He discusses the potential of AI to personalize learning and enhance human interaction through tools like AI glasses and pens. Niall highlights the ethical considerations and the need for critical oversight to avoid widening inequalities. He concludes that AI can be a tool for inclusion but should not replace the human element in teaching, which brings empathy and collaboration.

In this episode I speak to Professor Dympna Devine in an episode entitled, "What has social justice got to do with pedagogy?" a title which Dympna explains was inspired by a question from a student in a module that she taught on equalities and social justice. Professor Devine is a full Professor of Education in UCD School of Education. Her specialist field is sociology, researching at the intersection of sociologies of education and sociologies of childhood, and the impact of education on society. Dympna is currently leading the first large-scale mixed methods longitudinal study (2018 - 2025) exploring children’s primary schooling experiences in Ireland : Children’s School Lives (www.cslstudy.ie). She previously led a longitudinal study (2017 - 2022) of children's primary school lives in rural Sierra Leone (www.safelearning.ie) which received a UCD case study impact award in 2023. Both studies build on her long-standing research into children’s everyday lives, focusing on their voices, rights, identities and equalities across home and school. Professor Devine shares her motivation to focus on sociology, which was sparked by her interdisciplinary B.Ed. at St. Patrick's College and her work with Professor Kathleen Lynch.  A former Fulbright scholar and Marie Curie Fellow, Dympna has an extensive portfolio of doctoral and postdoctoral supervision, and has published widely in the areas of migrant children in education, children’s rights and citizenship, pedagogies and school cultures for social justice and equality.  Our conversation begins with a discussion highlighting the challenge for students to connect their everyday classroom experiences with wider concepts and theories of sociology of education. Professor Devine emphasizes the importance of bringing sociology of education into the everyday reality of classrooms and making it relevant to teachers, school principals, and children. Professor Devine explains that pedagogy is central to the micro and macro dynamics in society, with a focus on relationships between teachers and students.  We discuss the concept of sociological imagination, which involves developing a different way of seeing things through the use of specific concepts and ideas. Dympna highlights the importance of understanding the dynamics of structure and agency in pedagogy, particularly in the relationship between teachers and students. She emphasizes the need for socially just informed pedagogy to create meaningful opportunities for children through education. Dympna’s research has focused on understanding children's social worlds, power relations in schools, and the impact of migration and ethnicity on children's experiences. Dympna provides an overview of the "Children's School Lives" study, which is the first in-depth longitudinal cohort study of primary school children in Ireland. The study tracked 4000 children over five years, with 189 primary schools participating, and included both quantitative and qualitative research methods. The study focused on themes such as family, school and teaching cultures, equality, voice and inclusion, well-being, children's engagement with learning, and transitions to secondary school. Dympna highlights the importance of the study in informing the primary curriculum reform in Ireland and its impact on policy and practice with the NCCA finding the research useful for evidence-based reform. Professor Devine reflects on the importance of education as a public good and the role of teachers in fostering active citizenship among children.She emphasizes the need for socially just pedagogies to facilitate children's participation and contribution to society,highlighting the strong commitment to care and nurture among primary school teachers in Ireland, which is evident in the "Children's School Lives" study. She concludes by emphasizing the importance of teachers' trust and the value of education in maintaining a strong democracy. A must-listen episode!

Declan Qualter is the Practice Placement Supervisor for the BEd with Gaeilge and/or Modern Languages Programme in the UCD School of Education. He also teaches on the Professional Masters in Education programme. Declan is a PhD candidate in UCD, with his doctoral research focusing on parental involvement in children's home-based digital learning.  Declan's other research interests are centred on the digital transformation of education and the role of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in educational settings. He serves as the Chair of the UCD School of Education’s AI in Education Sub-committee and has represented the UCD School of Education at the Council of Europe Working Conferences on Regulating AI in Education and as an invited speaker at the launch of European Year of Digital Citizenship Education 2025. Declan is an active member of the European Digital Education Hub, where he participates in the Well-being in Digital Education Squad as a sub-team leader. Previously, he was a member of the European Commission Selfie for Teachers Expert Group, and has led two Erasmus+ projects focused on the digital transformation of education. Prior to joining the UCD School of Education, Declan was a post-primary school teacher of Business Studies and Guidance Counselling. He later took on advisory roles, being seconded as an advisor to the Professional Development Service for Teachers (PDST, now Óide), and subsequently as Schools' Support Coordinator with Laois Offaly ETB. In this episode Declan highlights the challenges schools face in engaging parents, especially those who are hard to reach. His research involves a school-based intervention to enhance parents' digital literacy, facilitated by parents themselves. Preliminary findings suggest increased self-efficacy and a sense of community among participants. He also emphasized the importance of addressing digital exclusion and the need for systemic support to ensure equitable access to digital resources in education. He discusses his transition to teacher education, working with PDST, and his current role in initial teacher education at UCD. Declan reflects on his interest in sociology, particularly in the role of parents in post-school transitions and his master's research with Dr Grace O'Grady.His doctoral work focuses on the role of parents in children's digital learning and the tension between aspirational policies and practical challenges. We discuss the influence of families on educational outcomes and the importance of parental involvement and Declan shares insights from his research on the determinants of parental involvement, including life context, motivation, and self-efficacy. Declan describes the design and implementation of a five-week program from his research to enhance parents' digital literacy, facilitated by parents in the school. He highlights the importance of ethical and responsible use of AI in education and the need for ongoing professional development for teachers. He also reflects on the role of generative AI in teaching and the importance of maintaining the social construct of teaching. We discuss the concerns around AI's impact on assessment practices, particularly in senior cycle and higher education and Declan emphasizes the need for meaningful engagement and support for teachers in any educational reforms involving AI. Declan highlights the role of sociology in understanding the impact of AI on education and the importance of addressing systemic barriers. In summary, Declan reiterates the importance of engaging parents as partners in education and the need for systemic changes to support parental involvement and he concludes with a call for ongoing research and collaboration to support parents and teachers in the digital transformation of education.

Dr. Audrey Bryan is an Associate Professor of Sociology in the School of Human Development at Dublin City University’s Institute of Education (DCU IoE).  Her teaching spans a number of undergraduate as well as post-graduate programmes in the sociology of childhood, sociology of education, advanced research methods and sustainability.   Her most recent research advances critical perspectives on Artificial Intelligence and Education, the psycho-affective turn in education, parenting children and youth in the 21st century and climate justice pedagogies.   She is Section Editor (with Yoko Mochizuki) of the Climate Section of the Springer Handbook of Children and Youth Studies (2024). In this episode we discuss Audrey's role at DCU and her involvement in teaching sociology of childhood and sociology of education where her work now focuses on inequalities in education. She highlights the sociological perspective on education, emphasizing its role in reinforcing social inequalities. Audrey also expresses concerns about the impact of artificial intelligence on education, stressing the importance of human connection and relationality in teaching. She expresses concern about the depoliticized narrative in educational policy-making and the need for a more nuanced sociological perspective. Sociological Perspective on Inequality in Education Audrey discusses the study of inequality as a core aspect of sociology and its explanatory power in understanding educational inequalities. She critiques the popular myth of meritocracy, arguing that education often reinforces rather than eliminates social inequalities and emphasizes the importance of addressing broader social injustices to improve educational outcomes.  Challenges and Opportunities in Teacher Education We discuss the challenges of addressing educational inequalities within the current education system and the need for unlearning meritocratic ideologies among student teachers. Audrey also emphasizes the importance of critical thinking skills and addressing complex issues like bullying, inequality, and racism within teacher education programmes. Teaching Methods and Pedagogical Approaches Audrey describes her teaching methods, including the use of film, humor, and visuals to make complex concepts accessible. She mentions the use of "The Rabbit-Proof Fence" film to illustrate agency and resilience in children and how she incorporates comedy and sitcoms like "Shits Creek" to engage students with difficult knowledge.. Global Educational Governance and Social Emotional Learning Audrey explains her work on global educational governance, focusing on international organizations like the OECD and UNESCO. She discusses the shift in educational discourse from human rights to human capital and the role of non-state actors. She highlights the ethical and material consequences of assessing non-cognitive skills and the need for a more nuanced understanding of educational inequalities. Bullying and Digital Culture in Education She emphasizes the need for a sociological perspective to understand the root causes of bullying and its impact on students and the importance of addressing broader social and cultural factors that enable bullying. Audrey highlights the value of nuanced and complex understandings in developing effective anti-bullying policies. Artificial Intelligence and Education We discuss the potential impact of AI on teacher-student relationships and the importance of human interaction in education and the role of big tech in shaping educational discourse and policy and she calls for greater solidarity among sociologists to address the implications of AI in education. A really enjoyable and enlightening conversation with Dr. Audrey Bryan, tune in to hear more!

In this episode Dr. Melanie Ní Dhuinn revisits the eight episodes released in the first half of season two. She highlights key discussions from the first eight episodes of Season Two and recaps on topics covered, including interviews with ten experts on various education-related sociological issues. Key points include the challenges of full inclusion in education, reimagining education for marginalized youth, and the integration of social justice in teaching. The podcast also explores the role of emotion in teaching, the Ubuntu network's promotion of global citizenship, and the importance of trusting teachers to make informed decisions. Additionally, the impact of generative AI on education and the Sociology of food are discussed. In Episode One “All Means all but does it?” with Professor Joanne Banks they discuss a myriad of inclusion related issues and concepts and talked about what Joanne says can be quite a polarised well and a polarised debate when we discuss the concept of full inclusion and whether our education systems are actually working to ensure that every child and student has access to an inclusive education system or not. Staying with the theme of inclusion in Episode 2 with Professor Michael Shevlin they discuss how we can reimagine education for marginalised young people. Michael describes how there has been enormous progress in terms of legislation and in terms of understanding within the field of inclusive education but he stresses how it is so important that we continue to re-interpret what inclusion means. In Episode 3 Melanie talks to Professor Jackie Boivin and Professor Sheena Rancher from Bridgewater State University in an episode titled “Irish Classrooms Opening American Minds to New Aspects of Social Justice. This episode was inspired by a study visit by Dr. Boivin and Dr Rancher to Ireland in May 2024 which they made with a group of their teacher candidates to Marino Institute of Education and St Mary’s University College Belfast. In Episode 4 Professor Gerry Jeffers introduces the idea of “Schools as sites of tensions and contradiction” and how schools play a paradoxical role from nurturing academic excellence to addressing social justice and the functionalist expectation of schools to fulfil multiple roles in society. In Episode Five with Dr. Roland Tormey they discuss the concept of learning as an emotional practice and the role of emotion in the sociology of education and we also focus on how aspects of the sociology of education are evident when working with student engineers (with whom Roland currently works) and student teachers. In Episode Six, Melanie talks to Dr. Joanne O’Flaherty and Deirdre Hogan from the Ubuntu network. Joanne and Deirdre’s episode explores Ubuntu Voices: Exploring possible futures for Global Citizenship Education. We discuss the Ubuntu Network, funded by Irish Aid and how it promotes global citizenship in post-primary teacher education. In Episode Seven in an episode called “Trusting Teachers to make informed decisions to best meet the needs of their learners” Dr. Michael Hallissy  explains how he believes that we need to trust teachers to make decisions and how far too often, we are trying to enforce practices but the teacher in their classroom is best placed. In the final of the first eight episodes Dr. Michelle Share discusses the Sociology of Food and the importance of the context in which food is eaten, including family meals and school dining experiences. They chat about the cultural capital aspect of food and how it can be classist and about differences in food provision between different socio-economic groups. Tune in to hear more!

Dr Michelle Share is a Senior Research Fellow at the School of Education, Trinity College Dublin.  She is a sociologist with extensive experience in the conduct of multi-site research and evaluation projects in child and youth settings.  She has researched and published on the role of grandparents in childcare provision; children and parents who use intellectual disability services; educational access programmes at second and third level; young people food and nutrition in second level and alternative education settings; and surplus food distribution in community and voluntary organisations.   She was the principal investigator on a study of transnational grandparenting among Polish families in Ireland, and in 2024 with Alicja Bobek, TU Dublin, published Polish Families in Ireland: A Life Course Perspective (Palgrave Macmillan). You can read about Michelle’s extensive research portfolio at this link. In this episode we discuss Michelle’s diverse career in sociology and education, focusing on the Sociology of Food. She highlights the importance of food beyond nutrition, emphasizing its role in social connections and care.  The Sociology of Food and Education We discuss the importance of the context in which food is eaten, including family meals and school dining experiences and Michelle highlights the role of food in connecting people and the hidden curriculum in schools related to food. She also mentions the cultural capital aspect of food and how it can be classist, with differences in food provision between socioeconomic groups. School Food and Socioeconomic Disparities Michelle shares her research on school food, including the differences in food provision between private and public schools and the impact of budget constraints on meal quality. We discuss the importance of choice in school meals and the resistance from students when their choices are limited. Michelle highlights the challenges faced by schools in providing nutritious meals while managing limited resources and the impact of school policies on food waste.  The Role of Families and Community in Food Education Central to our discussion is the importance of engaging families in food education and the challenges of maintaining connections between school and home. Michelle highlights the intergenerational educational disadvantage and the impact of alternative education settings on food practices and social skills. The Impact of School Meals Programmes Michelle critiques the current school meals programme in Ireland, emphasizing the need for localized and community-based approaches to food provision. She discusses the challenges of providing hot food in schools and the importance of having some form of nutrition available for students while highlighting the need for schools to think about how they can connect food to the curriculum and sustainability messages. Surplus Food and Community Support Michelle’s current research focuses on surplus food and its redistribution to community organizations, focusing on the emotional and physical labor involved. She highlights the challenges faced by community organizations during the pandemic and the increased demand for food support and she shares her study on the feasibility of social groceries or social supermarkets in higher education settings to support students in poverty. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the needs of students and the broader issues of food poverty and inequality. The Role of AI in Education We discuss the use of AI tools in her academic literacy module, emphasizing the importance of critical thinking skills in engaging with AI while highlighting the equity issues related to access to AI tools and the need for educators to work with AI in a critical and informed way.  A very interesting conversation with lots for us to think about in relation to food at all levels of education. 

Michael is a former primary school teacher who has over 25 years’ experience working in the field of digital education. He developed his interest in digital education in the early 1980s as an undergraduate student teacher in Marino by experimenting with the college’s newly acquired Apple Macintosh computer. His first research project focused on the use of a BBC Micro in Irish primary schools in the mid-1980s. He later pursued a Masters in Education Technology in Boston College, where he also focused on the area of digital assessment. During his time in Boston he also worked in the Newton Public School System, one of the most progressive education systems in the US and he had the privilege of working on numerous innovative digital education projects. On returning to Ireland in 1994, after 5 years in Boston, he returned to classroom teaching and was instrumental in introducing Apple Macintosh computers into the school and in partnership with his H2 business partner, John Hurley, created the first school website in Ireland. Working closely with Ireland On-line, the largest internet service provider in Ireland at the time, he and John created a school’s portal for Irish schools, a booklet on using the Web in Irish schools and the first course for teachers on using the Web. John and Michael created a company, EdNet, to spearhead this work and eventually their work was recognised by the European Commission and the Irish Department of Education. This busy period between 1995 and 1996 eventually led to Michael being seconded into the Department of Education to work with staff to develop Ireland’s first digital strategy, IT2000. In 1998 he joined the newly formed National Centre for Technology in Education where he worked as a National Coordinator for Interactive Software in the Curriculum till 2002. He also had responsibility for digital education research activities at this time and worked with colleagues on a number of innovative research projects. In this episode we discuss Michaels’ contributions to digital education policies in Ireland and Europe, including working with the Department of Education, the NCCA, and the European Commission. He addresses the challenges of implementing digital education policies, including the need for investment in infrastructure and professional development for teachers and the importance of formative and summative assessment in digital education and the need for new models of education to meet the needs of all students. We discuss the importance of equity and access in digital education, both for students and teachers and the need for schools to provide digital devices and support for students, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Michael emphasizes the role of digital technology in preparing students for their future education and careers and the importance of involving families in the use of digital technology to support their children's education. In discussing the use of generative AI in education, including interviews with teacher educators, teachers, and students, Michael emphasizes the importance of critical thinking and understanding the consequences of using AI tools. While acknowledging the need for informed discussions and mediation in schools to ensure the responsible use of AI, Michael also highlights the potential of AI to enhance learning experiences and the importance of teachers being equipped to use these tools effectively. He believes that digital education needs to be embedded in all aspects of education, including initial teacher education and professional development. Michael concludes by reflecting on the current crossroads in digital education and the need for a positive narrative about the use of technology.  A really informative episode!

Deirdre Hogan is co-ordinator of the Ubuntu Network, an Irish Aid funded strategic partnership that supports the integration of Global Citizenship Education into post primary Initial Teacher Education in Ireland. She has held this role since 2006 and her work centres on building capacity of educators to critically explore and engage with key global development issues of our time. Deirdre holds a Degree in Science Education, a Higher Diploma in Systems Analysis and a Master of Education by research focusing on the nature of Science as an academic discipline and implications for integrating Education for Sustainable Development into its teaching. She is based in the School of Education at the University of Limerick. Joanne O’Flaherty is an Associate Professor at the School of Education, University of Limerick and Research Lead for the Ubuntu Network (www.ubuntu.ie). She has a primary degree in Physical Education and English. Joanne has worked in a variety of educational settings, including the formal post-primary sector and the NGO sector, before joining the University of Limerick faculty. Her research interests include teacher preparation, social justice education and social and emotional learning and she has published in these areas. We discuss the Ubuntu network and Deirdre’s and Joanne’s roles in the Ubuntu network. The Ubuntu Network, established in 2006 with Irish Aid funding, promotes global citizenship education in post-primary teacher education. The network focuses on curriculum integration, teacher capacity building, research, and advocacy. Deirdre and Joanne emphasize the importance of self-awareness and critical reflection in education and stress the need for continuous learning and collaboration among educators. The conversation highlights the evolving nature of global citizenship education, the challenges of integrating it into curricula, and the potential impact of AI on educational practices.  Deirdre emphasizes the strong link between sociology and the Ubuntu Network, highlighting the importance of exploring societal issues and understanding their implications while Joanne adds that the Ubuntu Network values community and collaboration, and that global citizenship education is not a single disposition but a constantly evolving field. They both discuss the importance of dialogue and shared practice within the Ubuntu Network. Joanne discusses the importance of research in the Ubuntu Network, particularly the "Céim study" examining how global citizenship education is conceptualized at policy, school, and practitioner levels. She also mentions a research study on self-awareness and personal development in global citizenship education, emphasizing the importance of reflective practice and community support. Joanne highlights the relevance of critical global citizenship education and the importance of understanding local and global interconnectedness while Deirdre emphasizes the importance of understanding worldviews and positionality in addressing issues of equality and justice. Both guests reflect on the challenges of addressing complex issues like immigration, far-right narratives, and the climate crisis through education and the potential and challenges of integrating AI, particularly generative AI, into global citizenship education. Joanne shares her experience of using AI tools in her work and the importance of upskilling to leverage AI effectively. Deirdre emphasizes the need for educators to be aware of the online spaces that propagate misinformation and the role of AI in navigating this landscape. The guests highlight the potential divide in access to AI resources and the importance of fact-checking and critical thinking.  A really informative, engaging and very thought provoking episode.

My guest in this episode is Dr. Roland Tormey. Roland is a sociologist and learning scientist, researching and teaching on engineering education in EPFL, Switzerland.  Prior to 2011, he worked in teacher education and in curriculum development in Ireland.  His recent research focuses on diversity and equality issues in learning, on the role of emotion in science and engineering learning, and on engineering ethics education.  His recent publications include co-authoring Facilitating Experiential Learning in Higher Education: Teaching and Supervising in Labs, Fieldwork, Studios, and Projects (2021), and co-editing The Routledge International Handbook of Engineering Ethics Education (2025). He also leads the Teaching Support Centre at EPFL, Switzerland.   In this episode Roland highlights his work on intercultural education guidelines and the emotional aspects of teaching, including frustration and anxiety. Roland emphasises the need to take emotions seriously in both teaching practice and educational research. We discuss his early work on Irish identity and how it was represented in the curriculum, particularly in history. Roland’s interest in emotion in education was sparked by the cognitive focus of intercultural education literature and the emotional aspects of community changes. We discuss the following in more detail; emotion in education and teacher competencies, challenges and emotional dynamics in teaching, emotion and reason in moral judgment, emotional labor in engineering and education, emotion and community in education and artificial intelligence and emotion in education. Roland  describes how he and his colleague Róisín Corcoran explored how teachers develop emotional competencies, including recognizing and regulating emotions.They found that teachers have multiple roles, experiencing various emotions such as pride, anxiety, frustration, guilt, and shame. We discuss the emotional aspects of being a student teacher, including the high stakes and the emotional space of the teaching profession. Roland emphasises the importance of recognizing and managing emotions in teaching, as it is a crucial part of the learning process.  Roland explores the relationship between emotion and reason in moral judgment, noting that emotions facilitate different types of reasoning. He explains that emotions like happiness and anxiety can impact different cognitive processes, such as brainstorming and error detection. The traditional view of emotion as a threat to reason is challenged by studies showing that emotions can enhance certain types of thinking. We discuss the concept of emotional labor, particularly in engineering teams, where women often take on more emotional work. He gives examples of how women in engineering teams feel the need to suppress their emotions to overcome implicit biases. We discuss masculinity and subject disciplines in education and he references Máirtín Mac an Ghaill’s work on masculinities in schools, showing how subject disciplines can shape ideas of masculinity. He explains how different groups within schools construct masculinity through various disciplines, such as sports, business, and science. Roland emphasizes the importance of building a sense of community in education, which involves recognizing and managing emotions.He discusses the emotional components of habitus, the social and psychological structures that shape individual behavior. He shares a study on deep fakes and their effect on parasocial emotions, showing how emotions mediate power in social interactions. The use of deep fakes as a tool of power, particularly targeting women, is discussed in our conversation, highlighting the emotional dimensions of AI in education.

Professor Gerry Jeffers’ experience as an educator has been wide ranging. In his twenties, he taught in a school in Kenya, East Africa. That experience shaped much of his subsequent work as a teacher, guidance counselor, school leader, national coordinator of the support service for Transition Year, lecturer in the Education Department at Maynooth University and as a writer. In the 1980s, Gerry edited Young Citizen, a social education magazine for teenagers that promoted civic education before CSPE was established in schools. From 2013-2019 Gerry served as the independent chairperson of Ubuntu, a network of those in initial teaching education committed to integrating Development Education/Global Citizenship Education into initial teacher education. Some of his recent projects include - leading the team that created FairViews, a development education photopack; -  a study of how schools respond to educational inequality; and, - with Maynooth University colleagues Carmel Lillis and Majella Dempsey, a scoping study of deputy principals in schools. His books include Transition Year in Action (Liffey Press) – now translated into Korean -and Clear Vision, the Life and Legacy of Noel Clear, Social Justice Champion (Veritas), a biography of a former national president of the Society of St Vincent de Paul. Until Covid struck, Gerry facilitated a consultative forum for educators as part of the Inchicore Regeneration Project. He is also a member of a Board of Management in a secondary school in the DEIS scheme. In this episode Gerry highlights the paradoxical roles schools play, from nurturing academic excellence to addressing social justice and the expectation on schools to fulfill multiple roles in society. He emphasizes the importance of reflective practice and the need for schools to challenge existing inequalities. He recounts his experiences, including the mainstreaming of the Transition Year program and the impact of educational research on practice. Gerry also touches on the potential and ethical challenges of AI in education, stressing the need for equitable access and the role of professional conversations in addressing educational disparities. Gerry talks about how his wide-ranging experiences led him to question where these experiences fit into the bigger picture of society. He emphasizes the importance of sociology and sociology of education in understanding the role of schools in society and the tensions and contradictions they face. He speaks about the tensions between preparing students for employment and developing their potential. We talk about the role of schools in creating a fairer and more just society and Gerry highlights the importance of reflective practice and challenging one's assumptions. Dr. Jeffers recounts his experiences growing up in the late 60s and the O'Malley initiative, which aimed to address educational inequality.  His volunteer work in a disadvantaged youth club and reading an ESRI report on young law breakers shaped his understanding of poverty, inequality, and the role of schools.  We discuss the power dynamics within schools, including the impact of uniform policies and the challenges of maintaining a balance between order and creativity. We explore the concept of school culture with Gerry defining it as the shared basic assumptions and beliefs that operate unconsciously within the school. Gerry emphasizes the importance of professional conversations in schools to address tensions and contradictions. We discuss the mainstreaming of the transition year programme and its success in providing a bridge between junior and senior cycles. He highlights the role of transition year in building confidence, identity, and academic development for students while also highlighting the challenges of implementing transition year in disadvantaged schools and the need for it to be available to all students.

“Irish Classrooms Opening American Minds to New Aspects of Social Justice Education.”  Dr. Jacquelynne Anne Boivin is an Assistant Professor of Elementary and Early Childhood Education at Bridgewater State University in Bridgewater, MA, USA, where she supervises student teachers, mentors honors thesis projects, and teaches math methods to elementary teacher candidates and seminars on deconstructing racism by integrating schools and decolonizing social studies curricula. She is co-chair of her department’s Anti-Racism Matters committee and supports and facilitates student and faculty professional development focused on diversity, equity, and inclusion. She is also co-chair of the College of Education and Health Sciences’ Diversity and Equity Council. She is a former elementary school teacher who uses her experience in the field to contextualize her instruction in teacher-preparation. She is the author of the book, Exploring the Role of the School Principal in Predominantly White Middle Schools: School Leadership to Promote Multicultural Understanding and co-editor of Education as the Driving Force of Equity for the Marginalized, The Role of Educators as Agents and Conveyors for Positive Change in Global Education, and STEM Education Approaches and Challenges in the MENA Region. Her largest passion is authentically connecting academic disciplines with social justice skills and understandings. In her spare time, she enjoys outdoor adventures with her husband, Craig, a warm cup of tea with a good book and her cat, and cooking and baking with food she grows. Dr. Sheena Manuel Rancher is an Assistant Professor of Special Education with 18 years of experience working with students of all ages (P-adult) and abilities (with/without disabilities), from paraprofessional to professor. Before joining Bridgewater State University, she served as a Teacher of Blind Students and National Orientation and Mobility Certified (NOMC) instructor for seven years, serving families in Louisiana, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Florida. Currently, she educates teacher candidates on social justice in schools and society and curriculum development for students with moderate disabilities in grades P-12. As a co-chair of the College of Education and Health Sciences’ Diversity and Equity Council, she works to increase Brave spaces to discuss social justice topics and implications and offer professional development around equity. In May 2024, Dr. Boivin and Dr. Rancher traveled to Ireland with a group of teacher candidates and visited Marino Institute of Education in Dublin and St. Mary’s University College in Belfast and visited primary schools in Dublin and in Belfast where they observed teachers across a range of classes. This episode has been inspired by their visit to Ireland and their learning from Irish classrooms. In this episode we discuss the integration of social justice and equity in education, emphasizing their collaborative work and experiences. Jacquelynne and Sheena highlight the importance of explicit teaching of social justice, the role of teacher candidates in diverse settings, and the impact of cultural immersion in Ireland on their teaching practices. They address the challenges of addressing race and equity in predominantly white teaching environments, the significance of critical race theory, and the potential of AI in education. They stress the need for teacher candidates to be critically reflective, to understand and address biases, and to promote equity and inclusion in their teaching. They both discuss how as teacher educators and teachers that “we really need to promote critique" and “not to be reluctant to critique, not to accept everything at face value, and to interrogate..So, you know, because things are never, always as they seem, either..there's always something. There's a context, you know, that surrounds everything”.

Michael is Professor in Inclusive Education and Director of the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities in Trinity College Dublin. His teaching and research have focused on facilitating the inclusion of children and young people with special educational needs within mainstream schools, promoting the voice of marginalised people within decision making processes that affect their lives, and addressing access issues for young people with disabilities within compulsory and higher education. He has completed longitudinal national studies investigating the provision of inclusive education in the Republic of Ireland. Michael is involved in policy making initiatives within Irish education in relation to the development of inclusive learning environments in schools and higher education. As Director of the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities he manages the delivery of an accredited education into employment transition programme for young people with intellectual disabilities. In this episode Michael and I discuss his journey from teaching to inclusive education, emphasizing the importance of engaging students with intellectual disabilities. He highlights the evolution of awareness programmes, the benefits of inclusive education, and the need for systemic change. He describes the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities (TCPID), emphasizing universal design and self-determination. He stresses the role of interagency collaboration, the potential of AI in education, and the necessity of hope and imagination in fostering inclusive environments. Michael describes the “..enormous progress..in terms of legislation, in terms of policy, in terms of understanding…” within the field of inclusive education.  Notwithstanding this progress however, he believes that “we have to keep reinterpreting.. what does inclusion mean?” He notes that while it’s “not quite every year, but it's every four or five years” that we must reinterpret, “because different challenges come... He states that “...we're in a system… primary, secondary system, that of its nature, if it's just left to its own devices, is not necessarily inclusive”.  Michael describes how when the concept of TCPID was first discussed how the “..idea of young people with intellectual disability going to university was quite radical. It was quite revolutionary”. He explains how “it came from a set of parents who saw their children going to sheltered workshops” and how these parents and others saw that these young people “were capable of far more than they were engaged in..” In 2004 TCD agreed to set up the centre “with funding from Atlantic Philanthropies” and in 2014 the School of Education in TCD took over TCPID, establishing a very committed team “who are determined that these young people can and will succeed”. In establishing TCPID, “ the idea was to really create a pathway in, a pathway through, and a pathway out…Let's do a general programme. Let's introduce them to lots of different areas of knowledge”. The centre now boasts what Michael describes as “a wonderful repository of great people, great academics, great teachers, great therapists, all these people, and that's the resource..”.  Michael concludes by saying “I've always seen education as being about hope, about educators, whoever they are, teachers, parents, community, people, right across the board as hopeful and providing that pathway of hope, and what does that look like, and what does that feel like? And I think that's we have to keep doing that and keep reminding ourselves this is a really hopeful adventure that we're on”. This conversation is rich, enlightening, informative and exudes hope and positivity. It was an absolute privilege to interview Michael and to hear about his work, his research and his stellar commitment to Inclusion and Inclusive Education. 

Joanne is a lecturer and researcher in inclusive education at the School of Education in Trinity College Dublin. Joanne worked for over a decade in education research in the Economic and Social Research Institute on education research before moving to Trinity. She has a PhD in History from University College Dublin, and a degree in Geography and Sociology from Trinity College Dublin. Her research interests are in the field of inclusive education and educational inequality. She has published widely on special and inclusive education policy and practice, school exclusion, and student diversity. She is the presenter and author of the Inclusion Dialogue podcast series and books. Link to Joanne’s podcast: Inclusion Dialogue | Podcast on Spotify And Joanne’s book: Banks, J. (2023). The Inclusion Dialogue: Debating issues, challenges and tensions with global experts, London: Routledge Education. In this episode we discuss a myriad of inclusion related issues and concepts as Joanne describes her career to date and explains the title she has chosen for this episode stating that she “picked the title because it's the most controversial thing in my field, my sub kind of area, which is inclusive education”, and how “it incenses some academics and others around the world, and other academics stand firmly behind it”. She believes that it is quite a polarized well and “can often appear quite a polarized debate”, She emphasises that “increasingly, it's changing…and refers to full inclusion and whether our education systems are striving for an education system where every child has the right and capacity or ability to attend their local school regardless of whatever characteristics they hold, whatever background they have..” She says that the All means all movement is quite common and while it is not a term hugely used in Ireland, “possibly because it's nearly too contentious”, but in Australia, New Zealand and in Canada, All means all is a movement. Joanne believes that it is a way of addressing some government systems who profess to have an inclusive education system.  We also discuss the following; Early Career and Research Interests Joanne describes her PhD experience at UCD and her multidisciplinary research environment, her role at the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) and her research work on the Leaving Cert Applied (LCA) programme.  Sociology of Education and Inclusive Education Joanne discusses the sociology of education and its relevance to her work and highlights the importance of inclusive education and the challenges faced by students with special educational needs within our education system and in our schools and education settings.  The Inclusion Dialogue Podcast and Book She recalls being prompted by the realization that there was a wealth of knowledge about inclusion from “really amazing academics all around the world”, and that there was no kind of common binding force or base for students to access that material. She decided to email twelve people that she had been reading for decades “and quite intimidated by probably”, but they all came back and were delighted to participate in her podcast and it grew from there.  Other topics we discuss include; challenges in inclusive education and systemic issues; the role of guidance and support in education; The Altitude Charter and Universal Design in Education and the role of Artificial Intelligence in education. This was a really thought provoking podcast episode and it was a real privilege to speak to Joanne about all things ‘inclusion’ through a sociology of education lens. Tune in and listen to this episode to learn much more and also tune in to Joanne’s Inclusion Dialogue podcast for more great episodes, her The Inclusion Dialogue book is available here.

Dr. Melanie Ní Dhuinn is a Senior Lecturer in Education in Marino Institute of Education and previously worked as an Assistant Professor of Teacher Education in the School of Education in Trinity College and Director of the Professional Master of Education in Hibernia College. She is a qualified post-primary teacher (Physical Education and Gaeilge) and now works across primary and post-primary teacher education as a Teacher Educator and a Researcher.  In this podcast Melanie interviews leading researchers, academics, social justice activists, policy makers, curriculum specialists and practitioners as they talk about the Sociology of Education across the continuum of education and how it looks in everyday reality in its many forms and guises. This is season two of her podcast; “Let’s Talk About the Sociology of Education”, you can listen to season one episodes here. This podcast was developed initially as a resource to support student teachers and others working in Initial Teacher Education to try and make sense of and demystify what can be abstract and dense sociological theories and recognise them in real-time practice. The podcast has gone from strength to strength, now boasting global listenership and interest appealing to many, inside and outside the field of education.  The podcast is broad ranging and covers a range of sociological perspectives, experiences and discussions including Social Justice, Equity and Equality, Disability, Inclusion, Cultural Capital, Schools and Schooling, education systems, technology in education, LGBTQI+ experiences in education, values, beliefs, gender in education, global citizenship, the family and school, emotion in sociology and much more. Tune in to learn from expert researchers, academics and practitioners as we discuss everything and anything sociological within the field of education.

My guest in this, the final episode of the ‘Let’s Talk About Sociology of Education’ podcast is Professor Andrew Loxley from the School of Education in Trinity College, Dublin. Andrew is the Director for undergraduate programmes in School of Education and he is also the Director of the Doctor of Education programme in Trinity. Andrew is one of the many colleagues I work with in the School of Education and he was also my doctorate supervisor in TCD and a wonderful mentor to me over the past fifteen years. Andrew and I have taught on the Sociology of Education and Research Methods modules and we have also conducted and published research together over the past number of years. It was an honour and a privilege to interview him for this final episode of the podcast series. In this episode we discuss the use of visual methods and techniques in Sociology of Education. Visual methods and techniques include the creation and use of both participant generated and researcher generated still images as data and analysis and interpretation of the data either as a stand-alone method or as part of a suite of research methods. This approach works particularly well within the Sociology of Education elements. Andrew has used this approach in much of his work to date and under his supervision was one of the many research instruments I also used in my own doctoral work. His title “Mucky Pictures, Visual Sociology” is ‘a nod to the idea of polysemicity’, “of muck of mud, of lack of clarity”, where the same thing has different meanings to different people in the same way that there are many different perspectives and lenses through which we can look to make sense of elements of Sociology of Education. Sometimes we may think that the use of still images presents something very clear to the reader or observer, when in fact still images are not clear at all and can be very messy and open to all sorts of ranges of different interpretations. Andrew mentions how Roland Barthes describes this as “a multiple of different possibilities” with both denotation (the literal description) and connotation (deeper and more nuanced narrative) within each still image that can ‘disrupt’ the doxa.  He talks about how we may think that what is a fairly obvious image of the world of a classroom, the school corridor of a textbook of a classroom is just what we see and recognise as something familiar but that there is a “lot of unknown fierceness to when you start picking away and start sort of figuring out what the internal and external narratives of the images actually are”. Andrew believes that using visual techniques is useful and worthwhile as “elements of destabilising how we look at the world, but also in a sense of forcing us to look at the world in another way”, which in itself is a sociological approach of looking and interpreting through multiple lenses to make sense of what we first see (denotation) and through our interpretation understand the many connotations that lie beneath the surface.  He describes how in the use of participant generated images, “or trying to persuade why participants should use visual techniques…you need to be very clear as a researcher, why you want to do it, and how you're going to do it, and what you're going to get out of it. And also, what you want your participants to do with it”. Using participant generated images also  involves a “huge amount of preparatory work that you need to undertake”. Andrew mentions how this approach really draws on the idea of collaboration from a research perspective, and “it also transfers or hands over a lot of control of the data generation process to your participants.” From a research perspective this empowers participants and gives them an authentic voice in the generation of the data.  He also refers to visual autoethnography from a Sociology of Education perspective and he describes how during Covid he has “been documenting my sort of life, usually around my desk”, his “changing workspace, over the past eighteen months and the sort of community that I live in, I just sort of focus in on the desk there and the changing there. In using visual techniques he describes  “moving from a very sort of collaborative community collective piece (participant generated images), to very individualistic way of working with it quite nicely (visual autoethnography)”. Use of still images/photographs in visual autoethnography is very compelling and powerful and allows us to explore the ‘studium’ or the elements of the images, rather than just ‘seeing’ the sum or totality of the image’s information or meaning. In ‘looking at a still image we are also exposed to the ‘punctum’ of the image which Barthes describes as that sensory, intensely subjective effect of a photograph or an image on the viewer. Andrew says how “The studium is this, the whole the everything there. But sometimes as a punctum, you're drawn to a specific thing there that you sort of raises certain questions, and you ask certain questions, which may or may not ordinarily be there”. We discuss Bourdieu, Marxism, impacts of Covid on student teachers from a sociological perspective and much more. We talk about how in the Sociology of Education on initial teacher education courses we can enable and support student teachers to construct their professional persona and identities and how “because you've been through this schooling process, both primary, post primary, post graduate, .. students have been through a lot of educational environments and contexts” that inform their identity as teachers as they build their own particular professional identity. Their individual experiences of school settings may be different from the settings they then find themselves in as teachers.  He says how it is important that students compare and contrast between one set of experiences and another set of experiences to interpret and understand the setting and how they operate and exist within it.  In summary, Andrew advises that student teachers and educators think about their own “starting point”, values and beliefs as they negotiate their way through the dense sociological theories and concepts in trying to make sense of different perspectives, positionality, power dynamics and views in what is  “sort of quite a dense network of ideas of concepts of theories”, which can be challenging to understand, identify in reality or make sense of. Tune in for the final episode of this podcast series! 

My guest in this episode is Dr. Rose Dolan, Associate Professor and Teacher Educator in the Department of Education in Maynooth University. Rose led the postgraduate initial teacher education programme from 2003 to 2016 in Maynooth University and is currently the programme leader of the Doctor of Education programme in and she also leads the the Teacher Education strands on the M.Ed and the Doctorate. Rose is a qualified Science, Biology and Mathematics teacher and she also worked in the Youth Services prior to becoming a teacher. In this episode of this podcast series Rose gives a nod to a song by Madness in her title “One Step Beyond: Sociology and the three capitals”. She recalls how the song (One Step Beyond) has very few lyrics and a lot of music and the reason she chose to include it in her title was because it reminded her of the idea of taking a step, a ‘giant step or a small step’ in thinking about structural and sociological issues that can seem so big and sometimes even huge. Rose talks about taking and going one step almost beyond ourselves to further and inform our understanding and our thinking about the world and the teaching profession.  We also discuss the sociological concept of capital and the many forms it takes, including economic, cultural, social and institutionalised capital also referred to as Bourdieu’s theories. Rose mentions how Bourdieu talked about capital as “presenting itself in three fundamental guises economic capital, which is immediately and directly convertible into money, and maybe institutionalised in the form of property, cultural, which is convertible into economic capital, and may be institutionalised in the form of educational qualifications, and social capital, which are social obligations, or connections, convertible in certain conditions into economic and maybe also institutionalised in the form of what he talked about title of nobility, (which I don't think we'd talk about it that same way today)”. We also discuss the Lyons et al Inside Classrooms study (2003), which Rose worked on, the ESRI Post-primary Longitudinal study, Professor Emer Smyth’s work in the ESRI, Brookfield lenses, the importance of parents in educational outcomes of their children and the privilege that teachers have in a classroom space. We discuss the challenges for parents and for teachers in supporting students to progress through the system. Rose mentions how it is important that as educators that we should look for “what is good within our young people”. And that we don't demonise them and we don't present images of them that that are hurtful for them to hear about themselves” or for them to see. “So I think within those ideas of justice and fairness, we need to be careful in the things that we say. And we need to, to be conscious of the words that are used and, and the actions that are taken that are interpreted and sometimes misinterpreted by those students that we work with.” We also discuss the challenges for student teachers in terms of capital and for those who want to become teachers but who may lack the means or the economic, cultural or institutional capital to do so and how this impacts on the overall diversity of the profession. Rose talks about how “if the cultural systems, or the culture of schools is so far, or is a distance removed from the culture of particular teachers, do they feel at home? Do they feel at home and feel steady and feel that they belong? And that's a much deeper issue that we need to think about, and that we need to talk about.” We also discuss the benefits of the extended programmes of Initial Teacher Education in Ireland and in particular the benefit of the extended School Placement or practicum and the fact that students undertake placement in at least two different settings and how this has enhanced outcomes for student teachers and also for the teaching profession overall.  We discuss Covid and the impact of Covid on us as teacher educators and on student teachers. One of the most prominent memories Rose has is how when “teaching in that early stage when we had first gone home back in March, April, and being really conscious of where I was positioning the screen, and what was behind me and all of those kinds of things, Family Photos, did I want them visible, did I not? Because I think what COVID did was, we ended up going into each other's houses, whether we wanted to or not, or whether others wanted us to or not.”  She mentions how students coped and how they managed to get through their courses, young people saying that “they didn't want their cameras on because they didn't want their peers, their classmates to see where they were studying from, or, what was going on in the background, people blurring their background to maintain privacy for lots of different reasons. The stories of people completing assignments on their phones, because they didn't have a laptop or a desktop at home, that they could work on. People sharing devices in a family and, and the demand for particular devices at particular times. Those were some of the things from the early part of COVID-19. that really stuck with me…all of those things speak to structural equality or structural inequality.”  Dr. Rose Dolan finishes her episode with the thought that “sometimes this kind of stuff (Sociology of Education) can seem big and vast, and you get lost in the middle of it, and you get wobbly. You just go wobbly, and you figure some of these are so massive, how can I possibly make any difference within it. And that goes back to that idea of “just one step one step beyond”. All we need to do is continue to take that one step beyond to make progress.  Céim ar chéim, i ndiaidh a chéile a thógtar na caisleáin. 

My guests in this episode are Dr. Kathryn Will, Assistant Professor of Literacy education in the University of Maine, Farmington in the USA and Dr. Robin D. Johnston, who is Associate Professor and field based experience coordinator, Texas A&M University, Corpus Christi, USA. I was very fortunate to meet both Kathryn and Robin a couple of years ago at the Clinical Fellows symposium in the States at the Association of Teacher Educators (ATE)  in Atlanta in 2019 and again in Atlantic City in February 2020. Clinical Fellows started in 2015 with the Association of Teacher Educators in the United States and the purpose of it was to really focus on the value of clinical experiences to support the way professors within teacher education and administrators approach clinical practice/ school practicum. Clinical Fellows offers practitioners an opportunity to meet and make connections, network and share experiences. For me it was one of the most energising experiences I have ever had and wasn’t like a conference at all because it was wholly participative in nature and participant led and focused.  It's all about facilitation “is not a sit and get opportunity, but instead, it is inquiry. It is the use of protocols, equity of voice in conversations and it's just incredibly generative in nature”. I was really pleased to have the opportunity to interview both Kathryn and Robin for the podcast and to discuss teacher education and teacher preparation with them. In the podcast we focus on Clinical Practice in teacher education in the US and the importance of social and emotional learning for teachers, both practising and pre-service. They mention the importance of communities and how “it's not just about the academic content. It's not about just preparing the future teachers to consider what are the standards, how do we use curriculum or how do we plan instructional practices, but instead, it's about the community, the community within the classroom, the community within the school, the community within a larger area, town, city, whatever it might be”. Kathryn mentions how we all have to come back to ourselves first as teacher educators, and who we are, what our positionality is and “how who we are impacts what we do”. She also says that “if you talk to teachers, they know that social emotional learning is the absolute key to what we do, you cannot ask a child to do Math if their needs have not been met”. She talks about how she designed a course in her teacher education programme in the last year, called social emotional learning which was framed around the Casel framework. The Casel ‘five’ as they're known, are self-awareness, self-management, responsible decision making relationship skills and social awareness. “It's all about taking ownership of yourself so that you can then expand out and grow, they build upon one another, my greatest learning in the last year, was just how much the future teachers needed to think about this for themselves before we could actually talk about what it was going to look like in the classroom, that became very apparent”. Robin talks about trans-literacy which is one of her research interests. This stemmed originally from the writing she does as sustainable professional development. About six years ago, she came upon the term of ‘trans-literacy’ which she defines as the fluidity of movement across a range of textbook technologies medias and contacts, which six years ago didn't mean as much even as it does today. She goes on to describe how; “And part of my oral language development course was, of course, the difference between academic language, formal language, and casual, you know, informal language and how our schools have this formal language, you know, kind of the school rules, versus our home has an playground and friend experiences have this more, you know, casual language, and understanding how to help students bridge the two, because trans-literacy is really defined by the situational, social, cultural and technological context, which to me is the heart of like the sociology of education, it really is about, you know, there's another term for what we call simultaneous literacy, where you're having to navigate all of those literacy and communication techniques and figure out what's going to work where your audience is, what the purpose is, and really understanding those contexts”. We discuss a number of sociology of education theoretical approaches, including Bandura’s teacher efficacy, the zone of proximal development and the ways in which having strong mentors (cooperating teachers, site professors, teacher educators) to help learn through these processes is a critical piece. “And we come back to that clinical practice experience, we come back to the opportunities to learn side by side”, pre-service teachers and teacher educators. We also discuss the concept of teacher educators as experts and how in fact that the teacher educators are not the only expert, that the classroom teacher is equally an expert, as is our student who's with us in the classroom, “how they have those lived experiences, how they have that funds of knowledge that they're bringing to the understanding, sometimes they are able to better grasp what's going on with the child than I am”. Kathryn refers to this as a mindset of humility, as “I'm in those clinical experiences, as I have the opportunities to walk into the classrooms, and learn with my students. And I think that brings it, you know, this idea of third space, where we're all coming together…And I think that the ways in which I'm trying to work in teacher education, there really is that opportunity to learn from and learn in practice that's really aligned with the sociology”. Preparation of teachers has changed globally and where previously “it was a case of now go forth and try your best. I mean, that's really what it was like..” now it is a more equitable co-construction where the roles of the cooperating classroom teacher, the pre-service teacher and the Higher Education/University are interlinked as professional experts working together. Robin says that for her one of the most important things is staying in that continual Lifelong Learning Mode, “because I do think we all have so much more that we can learn from each other, again, as we said, the importance of Clinical Fellows, and, you know, meeting with people hearing, having those discussions, talking about that classroom, learning from our colleagues, and then modelling that to our students”. Clinical Fellows informs how we talk to our future teachers “about how important that collegial collegiality and that networking in that finding your person, and your people who share that passion with you” and how as “we move forward in this new world and, and learn what's gonna work best for us, which is that social and emotional piece..”, and “what I've seen of my students, it is just as much if not more important than the academic pieces at times, you know, there has to be that balance. But we can't forget about that”. Robin concludes by saying how  we have to make social and emotional learning a priority, and “be intentional in every class, to develop that mindfulness to develop that awareness to develop those self-care techniques”. “Because there is so much to do in the teaching world, that it'll get pushed to the one side if we don't make it intentional..”, very important words here from Robin for us all. It was an incredible privilege for me to attend two very empowering and energising Clinical Fellows symposia in the US. As a Clinical Fellow and I look forward to returning to the US for the next face to face Clinical Fellows symposium as soon as it is safe to travel. I look forward to meeting other clinical fellows and networking in a different global space discussing our ongoing work as teacher educators, the challenges, the wins and the opportunities and most of all of learning from wonderful practitioners including Robin and Kathryn from whom I have learned so much and to whom I am very grateful for their generosity of spirit and invitation to join the conversation about clinical practice.  Listen in to hear more!

My guest in this episode is Professor A. Lin Goodwin. Professor Goodwin is Dean of the Faculty of Education in the University of Hong Kong and was previously the Evenden Professor of Education in Teachers College, Columbia. She is a renowned teacher education expert globally and has researched and published broadly on many aspects of teacher education and related topics. Lin’s research interests include teacher and teacher education, beliefs, identities and development, equitable education and powerful teaching for immigrant and minorities, youth, international analysis, comparisons of teacher education practice and policy on the particular issues facing Asian and Asian American teachers and students in US schools. I was very fortunate to have met and worked with Lin as part of the DEEPEN project ( Droichead: Exploring and Eliciting Perspectives, Experiences and Narratives) where she was a member of the international research advisory team that guided and supported the empirical work of the project that explored teachers’ lived experiences of the Droichead professional induction process in Ireland for newly qualified teachers. Lin has been inspirational in her work in teacher education and with newly qualified teachers and is an incredible mentor to students, newly qualified teachers and to teacher educators and researchers in the field of teacher education everywhere. It was a great honour for me to work with her on the DEEPEN project and also a great honour to have the opportunity to interview her for this podcast episode.  In this episode Lin describes how her pathway into education started in the classroom but somewhat surprisingly that she “was not a person who always wanted to be a teacher, I do not come from a family of teachers”. She says that despite getting accepted on her choice course in the National University of Singapore that her mother had other ideas as she “always had a dream, to go away, she never went to University, she always had a dream for her children to go to university, and to go to university away from Singapore. So we had relatives in the US, and that is where I ended up.. ”. Her mother was quick to dismiss her efforts at writing poetry once she got to the US, something that Lin enjoyed and advised her that she thought that Lin “should think about teaching, because you've always been good with children. And, you know, it's nice steady work, you know, that sort of thing. And I think I was just tired. And I gave in, and probably was the best decision of my life.”  Lin is a certified teacher both at both special education and general education and she describes education as being “an area of great creativity. It's an area of social justice, everything that you do, has an impact on society and on the future. So it is incredibly important work at the same time that it's incredibly difficult..”. Lin’s choice of title for her podcast episode (Beliefs, Diversity and Social Justice for New Teachers) was driven by the fact that for her “it really sits at the very heart of my work and my research. It was where I started my own research journey.” She remembers how during her undergraduate research work she “ kept coming up against this notion of beliefs. And the fact that, first of all, at that time, it was an understudied area. Now, it's an area that's, you know, quite substantively researched. But at that time, it was a very, very new idea that as teachers or as human beings, we come into any situation with a variety of beliefs and assumptions, and those come from our families, from our upbringing, from our experiences, none of us escapes them. So it's, it's human nature to come, [you know], with some, sort of internal, sometimes unconscious ideas about how things work.” She describes her research study and how she learned that it is not possible to be belief or value free. So that's one thing we need to sort of put aside, it is not possible to be completely neutral, there's no such thing, none of us is neutral. And even the things that we say are objective, someone decided on that objectivity, someone created something someone, you know, made a decision”. Lin believes that it is important that we examine and interrogate the concepts of beliefs, diversity and social justice in the teacher education space because the reality is that “that we live in a very unequal world. So we know that boys are treated a certain way, and girls are treated another way. We know that the colour of your skin, the address, where you live, how much money your parents have in the bank, the clothes that you wear, so many things influence how people treat you. And there's a lot of research speaking of sociology, there's a lot of sociological research that has looked at this phenomenon. So social justice requires that we become very conscious and, and actively resist some of the inequitable, racist biases that we believe that we bring with us. And again, none of us is immune, because we live in a very unequal world.”  We also discuss diversity in the teaching profession and Lin points out that “the reality is that diversity in sort of the more traditional sense around racial, ethnic, and language diversity is particularly salient. Because of the ways we structure schools, and what is considered appropriate ways to speak, or appropriate ways to behave. And those sensibilities are always sort of culturally grounded. They are not innate. They're not part of you know, what every normal [quote], human being has. They are things that are cultivated and nurtured according to who you are and where you were brought up. So there are kids who come to school, and right away, they do not fit in”. She goes on to describe how she is currently having a conversation about immigrant students and how she and her colleagues are exploring a concept “that we're calling, you know, othering, newcomer pedagogy, ways in which teachers actively resist othering and think about how they create welcoming spaces for immigrant students. And we talked about the millions of ways in which a newcomer is othered. And it's not simply about the fact that you don't speak the language. Everything you do, makes you stick out like a sore thumb.” This is an absolutely fascinating podcast episode and Professor Goodwin is a truly inspirational teacher educator. Tune in to hear much more on this very exciting episode!