🎙️ Episode Title:
How Klaviyo is Redefining B2C CRM, Services, and AI with Grant Deken
🧑💼 Guest:
Grant Deken – Head of Product, Klaviyo Services
📅 Episode Overview:
In this episode of Lessons in Product Management, host John Fontenot sits down with Grant Deken, Head of Product at Klaviyo Services, to explore how Klaviyo is reimagining customer relationships in the B2C space. From the convergence of marketing and service to the real-world implications of GenAI in product development, this conversation dives deep into the future of product management, CRM, and AI-driven customer experience.
🧵 Topics Covered:
What Klaviyo is and how it's expanding beyond marketing into customer service
The philosophy behind building stronger B2C relationships through CRM
Balancing qualitative and quantitative data for better product decisions
How Grant’s experience as a founder and marketer shapes his product leadership
The transformational role of AI in product design, development, and service
Real-world use cases and lessons from integrating GenAI at Klaviyo
Connect with Grant
Learn more about Klaviyo
Check out openings at Klaviyo Careers
🎙 Episode Summary
Host: John Fontenot
Topic: How to stop sales teams from selling vaporware (promising unbuilt features)
💡 Core Problem
Sales teams often promise features that don't yet exist (a.k.a. vaporware) to close deals. This creates chaos for product and engineering, derails the roadmap, and sets poor expectations with customers.
🧩 Why It Happens
Lack of vision and strategy at the leadership level causes misalignment between product, marketing, and sales.
Without clear guidance on:
Who the ideal customer is
What value the product provides...
…sales operate independently and promise features reactively.
✅ The Upstream Fix
Founders and product leaders must define a clear vision and strategy, including:
Product strategy (value prop, differentiation)
Go-to-market strategy (target customer, positioning)
Enablement is key: Marketing and product must empower sales to recognize good vs. bad-fit prospects.
🛠 Tactical, Downstream Solution
When a feature is promised post-sale:
Don’t drop everything to build it.
Ask to talk to the customer to understand the why behind the request.
Reframe the conversation with sales:
“Let’s explore the real need and maybe we can deliver something better that helps you close more future deals.”
Collaborate to design a more effective, differentiated solution.
Bring customers into the process: this creates partnership, not just transaction.
⚠️ Contracts often include promised features that are never built and unless the customer feels misled or cheated, they’re rarely enforced.
🤝 Building a Healthier Process
Establish a norm where product gets involved before a feature is promised.
Sales can say:
“That sounds doable. Can we loop in our product team to better understand your goals?”
If your org values honesty and customer success, this approach will resonate.
💬 Final Thoughts
You can shift from feeling powerless as a PM to becoming a true strategic partner.
This approach builds trust with both sales and customers.
Ethical, aligned organizations will benefit from this collaboration.
In this episode, Shobhit Chugh, former Google PM and founder of Intentional Product Manager, shares practical strategies for moving beyond execution and becoming a standout product leader—even when you don’t have formal authority or a supportive manager.
🔑 Key Takeaways
1. Don’t Mistake Productivity for Progress
Just being busy doesn’t mean you’re growing.
Like Amazon’s press release approach, define what you want to be known for before the next review cycle.
2. Influence > Delegation
Product managers can’t “delegate” in the traditional sense.
Find teammates who want to own tasks you shouldn’t be doing—for their own growth.
Example: Shobhit handed off API spec writing to an engineer aiming to become a PM.
3. Make the Strategic Urgent
Block time doesn’t protect strategic work—deadlines do.
4. Think in Terms of Leverage
5. Avoid Common Mindset Traps
Don’t assume company red tape is immovable—often it’s just unchallenged hearsay.
6. Develop an “Angle of Mastery”
Instead of a generic “10-year B2B PM,” position yourself based on specific problems you consistently solve.
7. Build Your Brand
In a competitive market, being the “obvious hire” is essential.
Join Shobhit on your journey to product leadership at Intentional Product Manager
🔑 Summary:
In this insightful conversation, Daria Love unpacks the often-blurred boundaries between product marketing and product management. She shares practical frameworks for collaboration, the importance of go-to-market (GTM) roadmaps, and how product managers and marketers can set each other (and the product) up for success. The episode is packed with strategic and tactical takeaways for PMs looking to deepen partnerships with product marketers.
⏱️ Key Topics & Timestamps:
01:45 – Daria’s BackgroundDaria shares her 14+ years in B2B SaaS and how she found her niche in product marketing.
03:39 – Her Favorite Area in PMMGo-to-market strategy and product launches—why she loves the unpredictable, cross-functional work.
06:22 – AI and RepositioningThe impact of market waves like AI on positioning and the tension between PM and PMM around messaging.
07:55 – Dual Roadmaps: Product vs. GTMDaria advocates for separate product and GTM roadmaps to avoid unrealistic launch expectations.
10:51 – Internal Stakeholder CommunicationClarifying responsibilities between PMs and PMMs when communicating launch plans internally.
12:34 – Product Adoption OwnershipWhy adoption is a shared responsibility and how PMMs help segment, enable, and message for different audiences.
17:04 – Avoiding Siloed Customer ResearchCollaboration between PM, PMM, and CS when interviewing customers, collecting feedback, or creating case studies.
22:35 – The Importance of SegmentationDaria and the host dive into how segmentation influences prioritization, measurement, and strategy.
26:42 – Building for the Wrong CustomersA cautionary tale: companies evolving past SMB but still building for them.
30:08 – Releases vs. LaunchesDaria breaks down tactical coordination between code readiness and marketing readiness.
33:24 – Early Involvement in the RoadmapHow PMs can benefit from involving PMMs at the ideation stage for better market alignment.
36:51 – Code Is Only 30% of the WorkWhy launch readiness requires internal training, customer education, and coordinated campaigns.
40:07 – Risks of Premature Feature ReleasesReleasing to production without internal enablement can erode trust and hinder adoption.
44:12 – Empathy for Internal PartnersPMs must support and enable internal teams like they do engineers to ensure successful product rollouts.
🎙️ Guest: Irene Yu Founder & CEO of SkipLevel – a company helping PMs become more technical without needing to code.
🔑 Key Topics & Timestamps
[00:00 - 02:25] Irene's BackgroundIrene shares her transition from software engineer to starting SkipLevel.
[02:26 - 04:45] Identifying the Technical GapsHer early software development experience revealed a lack of technical knowledge in PMs which created communication issues with engineers.
[04:46 - 07:15] Why PMs Should Learn Tech FundamentalsShe explains how better technical understanding helps PMs ask better questions and write clearer requirements.
[07:16 - 10:30] PMs Don’t Need to Code, but…Irene stresses PMs don’t need to be coders, but they should understand system architecture, APIs, databases, etc.
[10:31 - 13:20] Creating SkipLevelIrene talks about how she turned her insights into a business – a learning platform that bridges the tech gap for PMs.
[13:21 - 16:40] Common Challenges for PMsShe highlights issues like vague communication with devs and over-reliance on engineering for feasibility assessments.
[16:41 - 20:00] How SkipLevel WorksOverview of the course structure – from foundational topics to applied learning on APIs and backend logic.
[20:01 - 24:15] Advice for PMsIrene encourages curiosity, asking “how” and “why” behind technical choices, and building confidence through structured learning.
[24:16 - End] Final ThoughtsImportance of continuous learning, especially in bridging gaps between business and tech for better product outcomes.
Summary:
In this episode of Lessons in Product Management, John discusses the importance of developing into a T-shaped product manager — someone who has deep expertise in one area but broad knowledge across many disciplines. He explains how the expectations of PMs are evolving, particularly with the rise of generative AI, and gives tactical advice on building a career growth roadmap.
Timestamps:
00:09 – Introduction to the episode and topic.
00:23 – What is a T-shaped PM? (Depth and breadth explained)
01:10 – Defining the core responsibility of a PM: creating customer value that drives business objectives.
02:00 – Key PM tasks: Working with teams, getting buy-in, prioritizing, synthesizing information.
03:26 – Areas PMs can go deep in, and the need for broad competency across adjacent fields.
03:57 – Technical competency: Importance for PMs without technical backgrounds (mention of Skip Level course).
04:41 – Gaining competence in UX and research.
04:58 – Understanding go-to-market functions: marketing, sales, customer success, and product marketing.
05:30 – Importance of data and analytics skills: SQL proficiency, telling stories with data.
06:05 – Compliance, legal, and regulatory knowledge for PMs in heavily regulated industries.
06:30 – Product ethics: distinguishing between what you can do and what you should do.
06:55 – Financial acumen: revenue models, ROI, and understanding value vs. cost.
07:43 – PMs are at the center of organizations: Why speaking multiple "languages" matters.
08:07 – Embracing a long-term career journey rather than sprinting to learn everything at once.
08:35 – How to identify strengths and weaknesses to focus learning efforts.
09:23 – Real-world examples of technical and regulatory knowledge gaps PMs need to address.
09:42 – The need for PMs to evolve in the era of generative AI and automation.
10:34 – The shift away from traditional PM roles focused only on backlogs and PRDs.
11:28 – A call to action: Take ownership of your learning to remain competitive.
12:08 – Summary: Developing breadth and depth will determine your ability to land jobs, get promoted, and grow.
12:44 – John offers coaching help: Listeners can email him for a career growth roadmap session. john@path2product.io
13:00 – Closing remarks: "Go out and kill it!"
If you're trying to break into product management, come join us at Path2Product to get the experience you need!
Lessons in Product Management - Working & Communicating with Engineers
Guest: Paul Lunow
Host: John Doe
Episode Duration: ~28 min
[00:00 - 01:37] Introduction
[01:37 - 04:05] Paul’s Background in Product & Engineering
Founded Nepos, a startup building a tablet for elderly users.
Moved to eBay to experience corporate innovation.
[04:05 - 06:45] The Role of AI in Learning Platforms
[06:45 - 10:38] How Product Managers Can Work Better with Engineers
The importance of psychological safety in teams.
Engineers need a space to fail, ask questions, and collaborate.
[10:38 - 14:46] How Much Tech Knowledge Should a PM Have?
PMs don’t need to code but must deeply understand the product.
The worst thing: a PM who pretends to know coding but doesn’t use the product.
[14:46 - 18:08] Anti-Patterns: What Drives Engineers Crazy
Overworked and stressed PMs create pressure and disconnection.
Avoid last-minute changes and unclear expectations.
[18:08 - 22:26] Managing Workload as a PM
Split work into offense (strategic work) and defense (reactive tasks).
Prioritize one key task per day instead of juggling everything at once.
[22:26 - 24:59] How PMs Can Earn Engineers’ Trust
Be a sparring partner, not just a requirement-pusher.
Never throw engineers under the bus—own decisions as a team.
[24:59 - 27:36] Final Thoughts & Paul’s Work
Mistakes happen—focus on developing strong personal values as a PM.
Paul’s new novel about an engineer in Big Tech (available in German).
[27:36 - 28:00] Closing Remarks
Subscribe to Product and Cake & Lessons in Product Management.
See you next week!
Podcast Summary: Megan Shulby on Post-Launch Product ManagementIntroduction & Megan’s Background
Connect with Megan on LinkedIn
Join us on Path2Product to gain hands-on product management experience and build a PM Portfolio to land your first PM job!
Episode Summary:
In this episode, John Fontenot explores a thought-provoking topic: the potential consolidation of Product Management (PM) and User Experience (UX) roles due to advancements in Generative AI. He examines the overlap between these two disciplines, the evolving responsibilities of PMs and UX designers, and how organizations may react to increased efficiency through AI.
Key Takeaways:
1. Understanding the Unique Roles of PM and UX Designer (00:25 - 02:32)
PMs focus on business objectives, prioritization, roadmaps, stakeholder management, and go-to-market strategies.
UX designers specialize in information architecture, interaction design, prototyping, and usability testing.
Despite distinct roles, there is a significant overlap, particularly in customer research, solution ideation, and user flow testing.
2. Will AI Eliminate the Need for Both Roles? (02:35 - 06:50)
AI can increase efficiency, but does it replace UX or PM roles entirely?
Many organizations underutilize UX designers, treating them primarily as visual designers.
AI efficiency gains should ideally allow both roles to focus on higher-level strategic work rather than replacing either.
3. The Risk of Role Consolidation (06:55 - 09:25)
Companies with limited UX investment might see AI as an opportunity to eliminate UX roles, shifting responsibilities to PMs.
Similarly, strategic UX professionals who engage with stakeholders and business objectives could replace PMs in certain organizations.
PMs focused only on execution (e.g., writing JIRA tickets) may find their roles at risk in the future.
4. The Need for Cross-Skilling (09:30 - 13:40)
PMs should develop UX skills (e.g., using Figma, understanding usability principles) to become better collaborators and future-proof their careers.
UX designers should engage more in strategy, business alignment, and product thinking to solidify their role.
Organizations benefit when both disciplines embrace AI efficiencies while maintaining their unique expertise.
5. Future-Proofing Your Career (13:40 - End)
PMs and UX designers should leverage AI as a tool rather than fearing replacement.
Developing cross-functional skills ensures career longevity and adaptability.
Final Thoughts:
John concludes by urging PMs and UX designers to embrace AI-driven efficiencies while strengthening their core competencies. By adapting and evolving, professionals in both fields can safeguard their careers and contribute more effectively to their organizations.
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Us:
LinkedIn: John Fontenot
Twitter: @productfont
Instagram: @product.font
Thank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review.
In this episode ofLessons in Product Management, host John Fontenot tackles a listener's question:How can a product manager succeed in a waterfall environment? He acknowledges that while Agile is often the preferred framework, many industries and organizations still operate in waterfall models, making adaptability key.
Fontenot offers two approaches:
His key message: Regardless of methodology, success lies in how PMs use the time between releases to refine strategies and make data-driven decisions.
If you're an aspiring PM looking to gain real, hands-on product management experience OR if you're a current PM looking to augment your current experience in other domains, come join us atPath2Product where you'll solve real problems from real users of real products.
Do you feel constantly pressured to ship new features? Do you get the space you need for proper discovery?
Most Product Managers feel this pressure, and I was recently asked on LinkedIn why this is the case. What about our company cultures or human nature drives this desire for more new stuff? In this episode, I attempt to break down the top 3 reasons why I believe Product culture drives outputs over outcomes, even we say we want the opposite.
If you're looking to get your shot at a job in product management and not sure how to get the experience you need to make that leap, come join us onPath2Product where over 1,200 aspiring PMs are not only learning what the job is really like, but they are gaining hands-on experience and developing their portfolio to stand out in the job market.
On today's Lesson in Product Management, this one is for the perfectionists out there.
If you consider yourself a "creative" or an artist, you might be tempted to hide your work until you deem it "perfect" - but that could be hurting you more than you know. On this episode we break down why perfectionism hurts you and those around you and ultimately will set you back in your career and the progress you seek to make for customers.
If you're looking to get into product management but lack the years of experience you need to get in, look no further than Path2Product where we help you bridge the gap in product management experience, build a portfolio to prove your skills and prepare you for interviews and empower you to hit the ground running once you land that first PM job.
It's easy to get overly focused on "doing your job" as a product manager. Unfortunately, we risk taking too narrow of a view of what our job actually is.
When it comes to working with PMMs (product marketing managers), it's no different. And it's about time we start treating them like partners rather than someone we throw releases over the wall to and expect them to make our products sell.
If you're looking to get into product management and want the training and experience you need to get there, join us at Path2Product where we bridge the gap in product management experience for aspiring product managers.
Some of the greatest leaders and leadership authors have given the advice to "Lean into your strengths."
This idea makes sense in some instances. In other cases, it can handicap your career and growth trajectory.
If you want to get into product management and challenge yourself to gain much needed PM experience, join a growing community of 1,000+ aspiring product managers on Path2Product where we bridge the gap of product management experience for aspiring PMs.
On today’s episode, I got to chat with Bob Ainsbury, Chief Product Officer at Granicus.
Bob is a long-time Product leader who has had a winding journey from engineering to sales and marketing leadership to leading strategy and now in the C-suite as a Product executive. For most of Bob’s career, he’s been in highly regulated spaces like Healthcare and government.
On today’s episode, we dive into Bob’s experience in leading product in regulated industries and cover a bunch of fun topics such as:
This episode is jam-packed and we cover a lot of ground in 30 minutes, so sit back, relax, and enjoy these lessons in product management.
What is your relationship like with your stakeholders? If you're not treating them like partners, I can promise you it's not great.
In this episode, we share how to build great relationships with your "stakeholders" and create win/win relationships that stop making stakeholders feel like blockers to your desired progress.
If you're looking to get into product management, join us at Path2Product to get the knowledge, experience, and coaching you need to make that transition and accelerate your path to product management!
On today's lesson in product management, John Fontenot shares a recent story about his experience working in a Scrum shop and how the rigid interpretation of Scrum almost killed his ability to ship a critical integration on time.
If you're interested in entering product management and want to gain the hands-on experience you need to make that leap, join us at Path2Product and start earning much-needed experience today.
The difference between regular managers and product managers...
Regular manager: "Don't bring me problems. Bring me solutions!"
Product Manager: "Don't bring me solutions. Bring me problems"
It's our job to care more about the problem driving the request for a solution than the solution itself. But it can be hard navigating those conversations with large customers or senior stakeholders. On this lesson in product management, we discuss this reality and practical tips for dealing with it.
If you enjoy the episode, consider leaving a rating and a review and hit that follow or subscribe button so you never miss an episode.
If you're an aspiring PM looking to break into this challenging job market, Path2Product has you covered. We help you get the hands-on experience, coaching, and interview prep you need to land more interviews and your first role in product management.
Key Takeaways
Topics:
Hello and welcome in to another episode of Lessons in Product Management, I’m your host, John Fontenot, and on today’s episode I have Paul Turaew on to talk about his journey into product management and we riff on a number of topics in research. Paul’s a long-time PM, having held a variety of Sr. IC and Director of Product Management roles in Healthcare. Some of the topics we cover on today’s episode include the tension between research and shipping products, what’s the “MVP” of research, changing the culture and perception of research inside of organizations, and so much more. This episode is longer than normal and entirely worth it, so listen to the end, hit that subscribe or follow button, and enjoy the episode!
If you're looking to accelerate your path into product management, join us on Path2Product to get hands-on experience, build a shareable portfolio project, and network with like-minded professionals.
Outline:
0:00-2:00 - Episode Intro
2:01-5:40 - Paul’s Intro and Journey into Product Management
5:41-13:40 - A big myth about product managers and being technical
13:40-23:35 - The tension between research and shipping products
23:35-27:10 - What should anchor research objectives and activities
27:11-32:20 - The “MVP of Research”
32:21-36:00 - Successfully presenting research findings and insights
36:01-39:00 - Changing the culture and perception of research
39:00-39:29 - Outro