As many regular listeners to the podcast know, on this channel we have been exploring the new kinds of educational institutions that are emerging in response to the challenges that our legacy institutions are facing. For the last 150 years we've gotten used to compulsory standardised schooling being provided at scale by either the state, as public government schools, or by the market, as private fee-paying schools. I'm fascinated by the question of what alternatives there might be to this binary choice. Home-schooling networks, religious and intentional communities are certainly examples, but often still very much at the margins. My guest this week, David Bollier, is a global expert in the the way that communities work together to steward shared resources often known as the Commons, rather than relying on the market or the state. So I was very keen to ask him about the implications of reframing education itself as a commons, what would this do to the ways that we provide, fund, and govern education.
David is an author, activist, blogger and independent scholar with a primary focus on the commons as a new paradigm of economics, politics and culture. He is the Reinventing the Commons Program Director at the The Schumacher Center for a New Economics https://centerforneweconomics.org/, and co-founder of the Commons Strategies Group, an advocacy/consulting project that assists the international commons movement. David’s work on the commons especially focuses on Internet culture; law and policy; ecological governance; and inter-commoning.
David has written and edited many books on the commons, including the revised second edition of Think Like a Commoner: A Short Introduction to the Life of the Commons that was published this year. His other books include: Free, Fair and Alive: The Insurgent Power of the Commons and The Commoner’s Catalog for Changemaking; Think Like a Commoner: A Short Introduction to the Life of the Commons (2014); Green Governance: Ecological Survival, Human Rights and the Commons (2013), co-authored with Burns Weston; and Viral Spiral: How the Commoners Built a Digital Republic of Their Own (2010). With Silke Helfrich, he co-edited two anthologies of original essays, Patterns of Commoning (2015) and The Wealth of the Commons: A World Beyond Market and State (2012).
David spent many years in various policy advocacy jobs in Washington, D.C. in the 1970s and 1980s – with a Member of Congress, the auto safety regulatory agency, and public-interest organizations. From 1985 to 2010, David collaborated with television producer, writer and activist Norman Lear on a wide variety of non-television public affairs and political projects. In 2001, David co-founded Public Knowledge, a Washington advocacy organization for the public’s stake in the Internet, telecom and copyright policy.
David's website and blog: https://www.bollier.org/
David's podcast, 'Frontiers of Commoning', with The Schumacher Center for a New Economics: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/frontiers-of-commoning-with-david-bollier/id1501085005
David on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-bollier-254129/
There are a lot of people searching right now, including me, including this podcast, searching for different ways in and through many of the global challenges that we are facing. And as many people will conclude, education and learning are central to these questions of how we find our way! How do we learn together, across generations, in communities in ways that will enable the capacities of our youngest humans to thrive long into their futures?
It is my huge privilege this week to be able to share this exclusive interview with IB Director General, Olli-Pekka Heinonen, about his new book 'Learning as If Life Depended on It' which is released on November 4th. Alongside many other authors like Paul Kingsnorth, Vanessa Andreotti and Iain McGilchrist, Olli-Pekka's new book powerfully describes the legacies of the modern world that have led us to see the world and each other in very particular, and not always helpful, ways. He describes ten illusions that we have been enculturated into by modernity, such as the illusion of simplicity, control, and competition, then outlines how we might learn our way to seeing passed and beyond these illusions.
As he says: "as we view the world differently, the world we view also changes."
For me, for this podcast and, of course for Olli-Pekka himself as the Direction General of one of the largest education ecosystems in the world, the question that then follows is, what is the role that schools, universities, educators and communities can play enabling this new learning. And it is a learning that is a much broader exploration of what it means to be human and live in relationality and in service of life, rather than the formal school-based experience that we often associate only with the concept of learning.
You can find more information about Olli-Pekka and his forthcoming book, 'Learning as If Life Depended on It: Why We Must See the World Anew, and Figure Out What Follows' published by Perspectiva Press, here:
https://www.opheinonen.com/
Previous podcast episode with Olli-Pekka, 'On Leading a Learning System' (March 2021): https://www.goodimpactlabs.com/podcast/olli-pekka-heinonen
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olli-pekka-heinonen-4748581/
One of our main roles as educators is to support and help our young people figure out who they are and how they want to contribute to the world. Given our current context of rapid technological change with social, technological and ecological challenges, questions about decisions for university, training and future options for young people is becoming increasingly challenging. Similarly, for educators and career and college guidance counsellors too, to be able to continuously navigate this rapidly changing terrain.
Back in May, 2023, I had a conversation on the podcast with some young people who were expressing exactly these concerns about decisions and choices they were making in their lives about what courses to choose, and what careers to pursue. Since then I've been really wanting to bring together a group of global experts around this question. So it's a huge pleasure this week to be able to bring them together:
Rosa Moreno-Zutautas: Rosa is Global Director - Program Strategy & Partnerships at IC3 Institute. With a background in Clinical Psychology and a graduate degree in Mental Health Psychology, Rosa is dedicated to helping young individuals uncover their potential and purpose in life. Originally from Venezuela, raised in the United States, and currently residing in Canada, Rosa is passionate about IC3's vision of providing career guidance in every school. (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosa-moreno-zutautas-278767147/)
The 2025 Student Quest Report (that Rosa refers to in the conversation) will be released shortly and available here: https://ic3institute.org/research-and-publications/
Anisa Shaikh: Anisa is an experienced senior career & admissions consultant, customer success program & project manager with 12+ years of experience in ed-tech, SaaS, app marketing & media production. She is skilled in leading diverse teams, building partnerships & scaling operations to enhance customer experience & drive revenue growth in dynamic environments (https://www.linkedin.com/in/anisashaikh/).
Kathleen deLaski: Kathleen is an education and workforce designer, as well as an author. She founded the Education Design Lab in 2013 to help colleges begin the journey to reimagine higher education toward the future of work. Kathleen now serves as board chair at EDL and on the board of Credential Engine. She spends time as a senior advisor to the Project on Workforce at Harvard University and teaches human-centered design and higher ed reform as an adjunct professor in the Honors College at George Mason University. Kathleen is the author of ‘Who Needs College Anymore: Imagining a Future Where Degrees Won't Matter’ (https://www.whoneedscollegeanymore.org/). https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleen-delaski-1089012b/;
Anthony Mann: Anthony is a youth career development researcher and policymaker at Critical Transitions, and until recently was Senior Policy Analyst at OECD. Anthony is the author of The State of Global Teenage Career Preparation, OECD, published in May 2025 (https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-state-of-global-teenage-career-preparation_d5f8e3f2-en.html). https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthony-mann-81aaba17/
Shira Woolf Cohen: Shira is a founding partner at Innovageous, an education consulting group focused on ensuring continuity of learning and inclusive opportunities for all children. Prior to founding Innovageous, Shira served as the principal of New Foundations Charter School (2014-2020) and is the recipient of the G. Bernard Gill Award for Urban Service-Learning Leadership. Shira is also the author of ‘Leading Future-Focused Schools: Engaging and Preparing Students for Career Success’ (https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Future-Focused-Schools-Engaging-Preparing/dp/B0F9VWS8Z7)
In 1981, the UN established the International Day of Peace to commemorate and strengthen the ideals of peace. In a time when both the influence of multilateral institutions like the UN is being questioned, and the peace we need is in rapidly shortening supply as violence becomes the norm, my guest this week is doing amazing work with communities to find more peaceful paths through questions of conflict resolution by taking a systemic and complexity-informed approach. How we engage our young people in responding peacefully to the inevitable conflict they experience in their own lives feels like a critical part of what we do as educators, but so is being open to question the way in which violence and harm can also be normalised by the systems in which we live and work.
Dr Luke Roberts is the founder and Chief Executive Officer at Resolve Consultants (https://resolveconsultants.com/ ) and the author of ‘Leading Schools and Sustaining Innovation: How to Think Big and Differently in Complex Systems’ (https://www.routledge.com/Leading-Schools-and-Sustaining-Innovation-How-to-Think-Big-and-Differently/Roberts/p/book/9781032015620?utm_source=link&utm_medium=society_association&utm_campaign=B052718_pb1_5ll_6rm_t012_1al_9781032015620). Throughout his career, he has focused on conflict resolution, systems change and sustaining innovation. He completed his PhD at Cambridge in 2020. The focus of his research was the sustainability of innovation in organisations when viewed as socially Complex Adaptive Systems. He is an applied social scientist who uses System Thinking and Complexity Theory to address messy and ambiguous challenges which organisations and society face.
He works across the private, and public sector helping leaders to understand their ecosystem and apply creative solutions to ill-defined and systemic issues in policy and practice. His work often involves understanding the creativity within organisations and communities which allows them to thrive. Conversations often focus on points of conflict in the system and what are the ways in this hinders opportunity and benefits.
Luke has worked in the policy space with APPGs, Parliamentarians and Ministers, he has also advised policy leaders on multi-departmental working to address system issues. He is presently developming a leadership model which aligns with complex systems.
I've been so looking forward to sharing this conversation as it is an area that I am particularly passionate about. I feel very strongly that the way we think and talk about learning, teaching and education is so rooted in Behaviorism and Cognitivism and the dominant language of training and metaphors of the brain as a computer. And there is a still a widespread lack of awareness of the emerging insights of cognitive science - often called 4E cognitive science, referring to embodied, embedded, extended and enactive cognition. This is the idea that our understanding, thinking and learning in the world happen in our relationships with each other, our environments, the tools we use, and our bodies, not just as abstract representations in our brains.
And there is no-one better to be talking about this with than Andrea Hiott who among other fantastic work, is the host of the Love and Philosophy channel and substack.
All of her life, Andrea says, she has been motivated towards the same goal: "Finding ways for us to move beyond either/or mindsets, and to explore our multiplicity."
Andrea is a philosopher, cognitive scientist and writer and is currently a researcher at numerous universities, she is also the author of various books, including Thinking Small and her latest book ‘Holding Paradox: the navigational approach to mind and consciousness’ is out in 2026.
Andrea's website: https://www.andreahiott.net/
Andrea's Love and Philosophy channel: https://lovephilosophy.substack.com/
Andrea's community philosophy Substack called Waymaking: https://communityphilosophy.substack.com/
Just released: Andrea's latest paper on 'Radical Embodied Relation at any Scale, from Remembering to Navigating' - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11245-025-10256-7
Useful paper on 'What is 4E Cognitive Science?' by Cameron Alexander: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11097-025-10055-w
To mark the moment and celebrate the release of Vanessa Machado de Oliveira Andreotti's new book 'Outgrowing Modernity: Navigating Complexity, Complicity, and Collapse with Accountability and Compassion', we are so happy to be able to bring you this fantastic episode!
It is the sequel to Vanessa's 'Hospicing Modernity', which was published in 2021 and in 4 short years has become one of the most important books of the century. This new book is arguably even better, and Krista Tippett, the award-winning journalist, author, and public intellectual has called it "a moral, intellectual, and spiritual masterpiece."
But one of the best things about it is that it is a workbook, full of guidance for the strength, endurance and flexibility training that we need to be doing ourselves and in our communities and organisations to meet the moment we are deeply in. It is not a work that can simply be ingested for its truth-telling, as you will very much hear from Vanessa in the conversation. The book was released, yesterday Tuesday 12 August, so be sure to order your copy soon!
In collaboration with Manda Scott and her wonderful Accidental Gods channel, we are so happy to be able to share this fantastic conversation between Vanessa, her daughter Giovanna de Oliveira Andreotti, myself and Manda.
Vanessa de Oliveira Andreotti is the Dean of the Faculty of Education at the University of Victoria. She is a former Canada Research Chair in Race, Inequalities and Global Change and a former David Lam Chair in Critical Multicultural Education. Vanessa has worked extensively across sectors internationally in areas of education related to global justice, global citizenship, critical literacies, Indigenous knowledge systems and the climate and nature emergency. Vanessa is the author of Hospicing Modernity: Facing humanity’s wrongs and the implications for social activism, one of the founders of the Gesturing Towards Decolonial Futures Arts/Research Collective and one of the designers of the course Facing Human Wrongs: Climate Complexity and Relational Accountability, available at UVic through Continuing Studies.
Giovanna de Oliveira Andreotti is a Dancer/dance teacher, GTDF member, certified Warm Data Lab host, R4Rs founder, and online course facilitator/co-ordinator. Giovanna has been involuntarily steeped in depth-education from birth (courtesy of her mother, Vanessa Andreotti). Giovanna holds a Bachelor's in Psychology from UBC, postgraduate certifications in Climate Psychology and Embodied Social Justice, and currently coordinates an inquiry that maps pedagogical practices addressing complexity, complicity, collapse, and accountability.
If you have more questions about Aiden Cinnamon Tea and the meta-relational approach to AI that we discuss, check out these FAQs: https://burnoutfromhumans.net/anticipated-questions
And the Speculative Inquiry into Meta-Relational AI can be found here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KFJIVY9slGTcpWBwoMYQwbeKLfV3rNHo/view?usp=sharing
And further inquiries can be found here: https://metarelational.ai/projects-and-prototypes
Links:
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/783178/outgrowing-modernity-by-vanessa-machado-de-oliveira/
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/675703/hospicing-modernity-by-vanessa-machado-de-oliveira/
https://decolonialfutures.net/
https://burnoutfromhumans.net/
https://r4rs.org/
What it means to be an educated person or have an educated population as a country is a big part of what informs the decisions around industrial, economic and education policy. But built into these questions are some fundamental assumptions about what it means to make progress or be developed as a society. And beneath that particular values about what it means to know and be in the world.
My guests this week have been exploring these precise questions in the context of international development but as you will hear there are so many resonances with the conversations that we are sharing about change in education. Dr. Uma Pradhan and Dr. Peter Sutoris are the authors of the new book 'Reimagining Development: Bold Directions Towards a Thriving World'.
Uma is an Associate Professor at IOE, UCL's Faculty of Education and Society, and Deputy Programme Leader for BA Education, Culture, and Society. She also serves as Inclusion Co-Lead for the Department of Education, Practice and Society (EPS). At UCL, she is part of the Centre for Education and International Development (CEID) and the Centre for the Study of South Asia and the Indian Ocean World. Before joining UCL, she was a Lecturer and Leverhulme Early Career Fellow at the University of Oxford.
She is author and co-author of many books including, Language Education, Politics and Technology in South Asia; Anthropological Perspectives on Education in Nepal: Educational Transformations and New Avenues of Learning; Rethinking Education in the Context of Post-Pandemic South Asia; Simultaneous Identities: Language, Education and the Nepali Nation.
Peter is Associate Professor in Climate and Development in the School of Earth and Environment at Leeds University in the UK. His work bridges anthropology with education, development studies and environmental studies.Prior to this new book with Uma, Peter authored two books, Visions of Development (Oxford University Press, 2016), Educating for the Anthropocene (The MIT Press, 2022), all tackling the central questions about how humanity might be able to imagine its path to survival through the unfolding environmental multi-crisis.
Links:The book: https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/development-reimagined/
As I explore different aspects of the education transition that we need globally, and is emerging, it is increasingly clear that schools (or what might replacement them) won't be the only thing required. There is a huge amount of possibility and power in a broader ecosystem of organisations and networks taking different roles in enabling a more creative, meaning-rich, relational educational experience for young people and for communities. This week it is a huge privilege to be able to share the story of one such organisation that has been quietly getting on with incredible and impactful work doing precisely this for the last few decades at an absolutely massive scale across India.
Ramji Raghavan is Founder Chairman of Agastya International Foundation. Ramji leads the world's largest hands-on Mobile Education Program for economically disadvantaged children and teachers. In 1998, Ramji left his commercial career in banking and finance to create Agastya International Foundation, to provide science education to over 25 million underprivileged children and 250,000 government school teachers across India. During his tenure, Agastya has pioneered many educational innovations at scale, including mobile science labs, lab-on-a-bike and peer-to-peer learning via mega science fairs for underprivileged children. Agastya's 172-acre campus creativity lab houses over fifteen experiential science, art and innovation centers, including the Ramanujan Math Park.
With support from the government of Andhra Pradesh, Ramji and his colleagues established a 172-acre campus creativity lab near Bangalore. In 2010 the Government of Karnataka signed a MoU with Agastya International Foundation to establish an ecosystem for hands-on science education in the state. Wisdom of Agastya, an illustrated book authored by Vasant Nayak and Shay Taylor of the MurthyNayak Foundation in Baltimore, USA, chronicles Ramji and his team's journey between 1999 and 2014 in building Agastya International Foundation.
In 2021 Agastya announced the creation of Navam Innovation Foundation in partnership with the Pravaha Foundation of Hyderabad.
Ramji was a member of the Prime Minister’s National Knowledge Commission (Working Group on attracting children to Science and Math), is a member of the board of Vigyan Prasar, New Delhi, the Karnataka State Innovation Council and Executive Council member of the Visvesvaraya Industrial and Technological Museum. In 2009, he was elected a Senior Fellow by Ashoka and in 2011 he was conferred the People’s Hero Award by the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) (Southern Zone).
https://www.agastya.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramji_Raghavan
@AgastyaOrg on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/AgastyaOrg
The book: 'The Moving of Mountains: The Remarkable Story of the Agastya International Foundation' by Adhirath Sethi (LID Publications): https://adhirathsethi.com/the-moving-of-mountains
David Penburg's article about his time at Agastya, The Owl That Flies Silently: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bEeVpAE8J8LS5JAQJYxtrYEEVX2G6Ju7/view?usp=sharing
If we are going to radically rethink and perhaps replace schools as the dominant institutions of education, what are the first principles questions that we should be asking? And what is the cultural rootedness and traditions that might provide a sense of guidance for these questions? I can't think of a better person to be exploring this with than Dr Kapono Ciotti, whose work in leadership and collaboration across countries, cultures and systems, and across decades, has allowed him to see and participate in these fundamental and urgent questions from many different perspectives.
Dr Kapono Ciotti is a globally recognized leader who believes that education is the most profound act of social justice. As CEO of the Pacific American Foundation (https://www.thepaf.org/) in Hawai'i, he builds pilina (deep connections) between people, systems, and ideas to empower and support the transformation of communities. Drawing from his Native Hawaiian heritage, Kapono integrates moʻokūʻauhau (genealogy and legacy) and makawalu (the ability to see from multiple perspectives) into his work, creating innovative solutions rooted in culture, ‘ike kupuna, and sustainability.
Kapono’s international credibility spans decades of leadership and collaboration across countries, cultures, and systems. He worked as the Executive Director of What School Could Be. He is the co-author of The Landscape Model of Learning (with Jennifer D. Klein), a groundbreaking framework that reimagines how students engage with knowledge and skills (https://www.solutiontree.com/landscape-model-of-learning.html). A sought-after speaker and facilitator, Kapono has worked with educators, cultural practitioners, philanthropic leaders, and policymakers worldwide to advance deeper learning, authentic assessment, and place-based practices.
With a Ph.D. in Indigenous and International Education, a master’s degree in Social Change and Development, and a bachelor’s degree in Language and Cultural Studies, Kapono’s academic journey reflects his commitment to global transformation. His work bridges continents—from the Pacific Islands to West Africa and beyond—bringing Indigenous wisdom to the forefront of modern educational challenges.
Whether leading systemic change, sharing his expertise with AI leaders, or paddling Hawaiian outrigger canoes, Kapono embodies the spirit of pilina, connecting people to their purpose, their place, and each other. His passion for education and development continues to inspire leaders around the world.
Links
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kaponociotti/?hl=en
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-kapono-ciotti-99426746/
In the business of education someone telling you that something doesn't make sense is usually the moment to step in and explain, support and resolve the confusion. Helping young people make sense of the world Is our job isn't it? But what if making sense sometimes gets in the way of making meaning?! What is our job as educators in creating opportunities for young people to cultivate meaning in their lives, however that might happen for them? I absolutely loved this comversation with Sam Crosby this week, as we explored his work around the role of ancient myth, story and elders in responding collectively to the times we're in, that many see as a crisis of meaning.
There are so many ways that Sam describes the work he does in the world, so here are a few:
– Motivational speaker: Three words have followed him through his journey as a speaker: peace, wisdom and courage. Sam helps people to realise they have everything they need inside them. All it takes is clarity.
– Workshop host: After accessing ancient myth (particularly for the first time), there is a rare moment of connection with colleagues, friends, community, and Sam takes heart in holding spaces which have been described as ‘safe enough to share what was really going on for me’.
– One-on-one guide: The main body of Sam's work is in groups, but he has always maintained a one-on-one connection with a handful of people. These opportunities to go deeper are always matched by those willing to ‘go there’.
– Traditional oral storyteller: founder of Recalling Fire: the organisation bringing the oral tradition back to the modern west. Sam has facilitated immersive weekend-long events, hosted storytelling evenings and been guest speaker on stages and at rallies.
– A ‘cryer’: a once guarded and proud man, Sam is now open and willing to model the vulnerability he accessed in coming to terms with the birth of his son with a profound brain disorder.
– Well-versed in organisational environments: Sam has worked for over 10 years as a marketing and communications expert, representing agencies around the world before opening my own consultancy.
– Sure-foot: He is a wild camper and a trainee mountain leader. He habitually practices ‘nature solos’ as guided by The Bio-Leadership Project, spending 24 hours alone in a wild spot without food, book, phone or anything else to ‘do’ as he focuses his energy on purely ‘being’.
– Group guide: Sam has developed and facilitated events to bring the people of organisations and groups closer together, including conservationists with The Wildlife Trusts, activists with Right to Roam and social prescribers with Newquay Orchard.
– Mentor, A Band of Brothers: the charity mentoring young men at risk of the justice system.
– Fellow: The Bio-Leadership Fellowship.
– Alumni: Dartington College of Arts, Dr Martin Shaw’s The Westcountry School of Myth and Advaya’s Rewilding Mythology
– TEDx Speaker
Sam also has a fantastic podcast called Drop the Map (https://open.spotify.com/show/6U3NnuKxk1zG4BYdMcahZa), and you can find out more about him at https://www.samuelcrosby.com/ and https://www.recallingfire.com.
Other links:
https://recallingfire.substack.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/campfiresam/
“Are we valuing what we measure or measuring what we value?” It's probably a familiar question to many of you. And this week we're taking a detailed and reflective look at the role of measuring complex competencies in our schools, as this is often a big part of the discussion about what needs to change in formal education. In previous episodes (Ep72 and Ep148), I have chatted with folks from Melbourne Metrics, Rethinking Assessment and Mastery Transcipt Consortium. This week we're particularly pleased to be able bring you this conversation with Michaela Horvathova from Beyond Education. Personally I have some real questions and tensions about this topic, and it was so useful to be able to discuss them in a really open and collaborative way with Michaela, who has deep expertise in this area. She and her team at Beyond Education are being incredibly thoughtful and rigorous about ho w they proceed in bringing these approaches into schools.
As the co-founder and Chief Education Officer of Beyond Education and co-founder of Beyond International School in Portugal, Michaela is an international education policy expert focused on the future of education and skills for the digital age and the 4th Industrial Revolution. She has been a policy analyst at the OECD, Education Advisor to the Prime Minister of the Slovak Republic, researcher and curriculum expert at the Center for Curriculum Redesign and worked as a consultant with UNICEF, International Baccalaureate and many other organistions. She has extensive global experience in curriculum design and reform for 21st century skills & competencies, learning outcomes, evaluation & assessment.
Links:
https://beyondeducation.tech/blog/
https://beyondeducation.tech/assessment/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaela-horvathova-b548378/
This week it is a huge pleasure to be able to bring you this cross-over episode with Kwame Sarfo-Mensah and his fantastic channel, #IdentityTalk4EducatorsLIVE (https://www.identitytalk4educators.com/podcast). Kwame's work is full of insights gained through his own practice as a maths teacher and educational coach and consultant, and through his over 200 conversations with amazing educators and leaders.
Kwame Sarfo-Mensah is the founder of Identity Talk Consulting, LLC, a global educational consulting firm that specializes in developing K-12 teachers into identity-affirming educators. Additionally, Identity Talk Consulting, LLC is licensed as a DESE-approved professional development provider and a Minority Owned Enterprise within the Commonwealth for Massachusetts. Prior to starting his firm, he served as a middle school math teacher in Philadelphia, PA and Boston, MA for nine years. Kwame holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Mathematics and a Master’s Degree in Elementary Education from Temple University.
As a staunch ambassador and advocate for teacher empowerment, Kwame has spoken at numerous national education conferences and worked diligently to support the recruitment and retention of teachers of colour in the education system. In January 2019, he was one of 35 Massachusetts teachers of colour selected by Commissioner Jeff Riley to be in the inaugural cohort of the InSPIRED (In-Service Professionals Increasing Racial and Ethnic Diversity) Fellowship, an initiative organized by the Massachusetts Department of Elementary & Secondary Education (DESE) for veteran teachers of colour to recruit students of colour at the high school, undergraduate, and graduate levels to teach in targeted districts within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. As an InSPIRED Teaching Fellow, he facilitated professional development workshops for aspiring teachers at universities such as Boston College, UMass Boston, and Worcester State University and has served as a guest speaker for non-profit teacher pipeline programs such as Teach Western Mass, Generation Teach and Worcester Public Schools’ Future Teachers Academy.
Throughout his 17-year education career as a classroom teacher, author, and consultant, Kwame has earned numerous accolades for this work, which include being honored as the 2019 National Member of the Year by Black Educators Rock, Inc. and being recognized as a Top Education Influencer by brightbeam, Inc. in 2021 and 2022. His work has been featured in Education Week, WGBH News, Edutopia, Ed Post, The International Educator (TIE), Teaching Channel, and The Tavis Smiley Show.
His latest book, "Learning to Relearn: Supporting Identity in a Culturally Affirming Classroom" (https://learning2relearn.com/), received the 2025 IPPY Awards Gold Medal for Education (https://ippyawards.com/blog/2025-medalists-categories-35-65) and the 2024 Foreword INDIES Award for Education Book of the Year (https://www.forewordreviews.com/awards/finalists/2024/education/)!
Kwame has also authored 'From "Inaction" to "In Action": Creating a New Normal for Urban Educators' (2020) and 'Shaping the Teacher Identity: 8 Lessons That Will Help Define the Teacher in You' (2018).
Connect with Kwame:
https://www.identitytalk4educators.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kwame-sarfo-mensah/
https://www.instagram.com/kwam_the_identity_shaper/
Which places might be the first movers in a radical educational shift? And by radical in this conversation we're not talking about small tweaks in the types of individual competencies and credentials we optimize for in our current version of schools. But a completely different set of logics, values, meaning and purpose for what education could be, set in a broader context of the transformation of systems and radical democratic renewal. This might all sound pretty grand but I believe, like my guests today, that building for this transition is the work we all have to do! I've been a huge admirer of the work of Dark Matter Labs for a long time and so it was an incredible opportunity for me to be able to sit down with Indy Johar and Adam Purvis to explore these massive and important issues.
Indy is an architect and co-founder & Mission Steward of Dark Matter Labs. He is also a founding director of open systems lab, seeded WikiHouse (open source housing) and Open Desk (open source furniture company). Indy's work is focused on the strategic design of new super scale civic assets for transition - specifically at the intersection of financing, contracting and governance for deeply democratic futures.
Indy is a non-executive international Director of the BloxHub, the Nordic Hub for sustainable urbanization. He is on the advisory board for the Future Observatory and is part of the committee for the London Festival of Architecture. He is also a fellow of the London Interdisciplinary School.
Indy was 2016-17 Graham Willis Visiting Professorship at Sheffield University. He was Studio Master at the Architectural Association - 2019-2020, UNDP Innovation Facility Advisory Board Member 2016-20 and RIBA Trustee 2017-20.
He has taught & lectured at various institutions from the University of Bath, TU-Berlin; University College London, Princeton, Harvard, MIT and New School.
He was awarded the London Design Medal for Innovation in 2022 and an MBE in 2023.
Adam Purvis has spent over a decade building mission led movements and networks. His primary role at Dark Matter Labs is holding the team and driving internal clarity.
Previously, Adam was cofounder of FutureX, a major influence on how the Scottish Government supported entrepreneurship, startups and innovation. Adam served as the convener of the CAN DO Forum, on the MSc E&I Innovation Board of University of Edinburgh Business School, and the Advisory Board of Napier University Business School. Since then Adam's focus has moved to the systems in which business and entrepreneurs operate, taking everything he learnt from the greatest doers on the planet who have humanity in their heart, and applying that to the systems that we all operate in today.
Links:
This week, we're diving deep into a conversation that bridges ancient wisdom and modern learning. Joining Tim are two incredible thinkers and practitioners, Satheesh Namasivayam and Bade Kucukoglu. We explore how ancient wisdom practices—from dance, to creative arts, ritual and community performance —can inform and inspire us to create different kinds of spaces in our schools and communities and help us address the growing disconnection young people feel in modern education.
Satheesh and Bade left their lucrative careers to pursue their passion to work with adolescent children. Over the last 15 years, they have co-founded two organizations - MindVISA and the Center for AWE (Ancient Wisdom Engagement) - that build adaptive capacities in adolescents to face the uncommon challenges of the fast-evolving world. Exclusively focusing on handholding young people both in embracing their inner selves and in connecting with the outer world, their work draws extensively from wisdom practices of ancient civilizations.
Prior to co-founding these organizations, Satheesh advised corporate boards on leadership and governance, across the world. He has spoken at prominent international institutions, and is the co-author of "Leading without Licence". Satheesh holds a Masters degree with a major in leadership from Harvard University's Kennedy School. Bade, after graduating from Brandeis University with a master's degree in sustainable international development, was a development economist working with MIT faculty directing a team of researchers; and was also the Secretary General of Women Entrepreneurship Association of Turkey.
To begin their educational experiments, they first traveled in about 40 countries - on a listening tour - learning from the wisdom of local people in varied cultures and civilizations to help young people build adaptive capacities to face their unknown futures. Through their work they pioneered the concepts of "Ancient Wisdom Engagement" (AWE) and "Ways of Seeing".
Links:
Centre for AWE website: https://www.centerforawe.com/
MindVISA website: https://www.mindvisa.com/
Article: Opinion | India’s ‘AWE’ Factor: Ancient Wisdom In The Age Of AI: https://www.news18.com/opinion/opinion-indias-awe-factor-ancient-wisdom-in-the-age-of-ai-9238780.html
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bade-kucukoglu-26871110/
Email: info@mindvisa.com
This week, it's a huge pleasure to welcome Adam Kahane onto the podcast to talk with Tim about the everyday habits and radical engagement that young people as well as educators and leaders, at all levels of our education systems, can learn in order to do the coordinated and constant work of transforming systems.
Adam Kahane is a Director at Reos Partners, a global social impact company dedicated to supporting sustainable and equitable progress on humanity's most crucial
challenges. He is an internationally renowned organizer, designer and facilitator of complex and conflictual multi-stakeholder processes through which business, government, and civil society leaders collaborate to address such challenges.
Adam has worked in more than fifty countries, with executives and politicians, generals and guerrillas, civil servants and trade unionists, community activists and United Nations officials, clergy and artists. He is also a best-selling author of six books about this work, is a Member of the Order of Canada, and in 2022, he was named a Schwab Foundation Social Innovation Thought Leader of the Year at the World Economic Forum in Davos.
Adam is the author of "Power and Love: A Theory and Practice of Social Change," "Transformative Scenario Planning: Working Together to Change the Future," "Collaborating with the Enemy: How to Work with People You Don’t Agree with or Like or Trust," and "Facilitating Breakthrough: How to Remove Obstacles, Bridge Differences, and Move Forward Together." These books are available in more than twenty languages. Nelson Mandela said of Adam's book Solving Tough Problems: An Open Way of Talking, Listening, and Creating New Realities: “This breakthrough book addresses the central challenge of our time: finding a way to work together to solve the problems we have created.”
In April this year, Adam's latest book was published, Everyday Habits for Transforming Systems: The Catalytic Power of Radical Engagement
Links:
https://reospartners.com/our-people/adam-kahane
kahane@reospartners.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-kahane/
This week we're exploring embodiment science in education with some of the worlds leading embodiment practitioners and cognitive scientists! We believe that this is one of the most important shifts happening in education globally, which is simultaneously so simple, and yet so hard to budge given the depths of the tendencies towards disembodiment, especially in the Western tradition, that we explore. Joining Tim in this fantastic conversation are:
Arawana Hayashi heads the creation of Social Presencing Theater (SPT) for the Presencing Institute. Working with Otto Scharmer and colleagues, she brings her background in the arts, meditation, and social justice to creating “social presencing” that makes visible both current reality and emerging future possibilities for individuals and groups. She is currently on the core faculty of the Presencing Institute.
Links: https://arawanahayashi.com/
https://www.u-school.org/
Book: Social Presencing Theater: The Art of Making a True Move - https://presencing.market/collections/frontpage/products/social-presencing-theater-the-art-of-making-a-true-move
Prof. Guy Claxton is a cognitive scientist, education thought leader and prolific author interested in expanding human intelligence through research, writing and education. He has spent most of his working life based in a variety of UK universities including Oxford, Bristol, King’s College London and Winchester.
Links: https://www.guyclaxton.net/
Recent Deans Lecture Series, University of Melbourne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGFEswKBnMw
Book: Co-authored with Emily Poel, Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education will be released soon from Routledge.
Dr. Akhil Kumar Singh is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Public Policy at MS Ramaiah University of Applied Sciences. Akhil works at the intersection of Philosophy, Psychology and education, emphasizing the creation of educational policies and innovative curricula based on embodied approaches that drive systemic change.
Links: https://akhilksingh.in/
https://www.msruas.ac.in/faculty-staff/akhil-kumar
Book, Education for the Embodied Human: A Contemporary Understanding on Human Nature for Holistic Education - https://brill.com/display/title/71864
Emily Poel has been teaching embodiment in Berlin for over fifteen years. Originally from Michigan and with a degree in contemporary dance performance and history, she's worked internationally as a performer, choreographer and creative advisor. In 2004 she shifted her focus to embodiment training and hasn’t stopped since. Over the last ten years she's developed a large collection of activities using physical awareness tools and movement training to better understand how creativity, learning and thinking actually work. Emily is the co-author with Guy, of the forthcoming book, Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education.
Links: https://embodimentatwork.co/
Move4Schools - https://move4schools.com/
Caroline Williams is a UK-based science writer with 20 years’ experience in magazine and radio journalism. She writes regularly for New Scientist magazine. Her work has also appeared in the Guardian, The Times, The Telegraph, BBC Future, BBC Earth and the Boston Globe. She is the author of three books: Inner Sense: How the New Science of Interoception Can Transfrom Your Health (2025), Move! The New Science of Body Over Mind (2021) and Override (published as My Plastic Brain in the US, 2018), and the editor of two of New Scientist’s Instant Expert Guides: How Your Brain Works: Inside the most complicated object in the known universe (2017) and Your Conscious Mind: Unravelling the greatest mystery of the human brain (2017).
Links: https://www.carolinewilliams.net/
Caroline's latest book - https://profilebooks.com/work/inner-sense/
Move4Schools - https://move4schools.com/
The idea that schools simply deliver objective and neutral knowledge and skills to our young humans is a complete myth. In fact, with the amount of time that we spend in them over the course of our early lives, schools are incredibly good at conditioning us into particular sets of assumptions about the way the world works. My guest this week, Dr Ida Rose Florez is calling this out in amazing and very grounded ways and we discuss the impacts of what this does to our ability to be comfortable and competent in working with and in complexity (which is pretty much the place we all find ourselves in pretty consistently these days!). Ida Rose tells the full story brilliantly in her new book, The End of Education as We Know It: Regenerative Learning for Complex Times, as well as describing the examples of learning communities that are successfully doing education in whole new ways!
Ida Rose Florez, PhD, is a transformative leader in education, dedicated to reshaping learning for a more sustainable future. As the author of The End of Education as We Know It: Regenerative Learning for Complex Times, she challenges traditional education models and advocates for schools that nurture individual growth and ecological responsibility.
Ida Rose has spoken at a White House panel on Hispanic education, keynoted the Asian Preschool Education Annual Conference, and presented to leaders such as the governor of Shanghai and the California State Legislature.
Over the last decades, Ida Rose has led statewide education initiatives in Arizona and California, was a National Science Foundation Advancing Informal Science Learning Principal Investigator and governing board vice president of the National Association for the Education of Young Children. She served as assessment subject-matter expert with the National Governor’s Association and is a frequent grant reviewer for the National Science Foundation. She has also served on the board of the Human Systems Dynamics Institute.
Ida Rose holds a Ph.D. in educational psychology from the University of Arizona. She has held faculty positions at Penn State University College of Medicine, University of Arizona College of Education, Northern Arizona University College of Education, and Arizona State University Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College. She is a certified Human Systems Dynamics Professional and certified Warm Data Host with the International Bateson Institute. In 2017 she founded a consulting practice serving U.S. and international clients that focuses on regenerative education.
If people are interested, here is a blog post from Dave Snowden that touches on his view that we are unable to understand systems as wholes: https://thecynefin.co/regularities-reduction-2-2/
And here is a video where Jiddu Krishnamurti talks about thinking itself being the cause of the fragmentation and separation: https://youtu.be/CvL4uNA4U-k?si=bLbWpiSaPHJ4K5-Z&t=1073
Ida Rose's website: https://idaroseflorez.com/
The book: https://theendofeducationasweknowit.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/idaroseflorez/
After learning about the amazing work of my guest this week, I had an idea that I wanted to test out. Perhaps our current obsession with Large Language Models is revealing of our historic obsession with a narrow cognitivist view of how human learning happens (and, therefore, how schooling is structured)?!
Memorise the largest possible bank of static data and then output plausible propositions, in response to prompts from a teacher or a standardised exam! Obviously that's a bit of an unfair caricature of the industrial schooling system, but also not a million miles from the truth! As you will have seen from my explorations over the last few years in episodes on ecological psychology, play, movement, active inference and 4E cognitive science, I believe that there is an emerging understanding of how radically embodied and embedded in place and in relationships human learning is actually is. So that's why I was so excited to learn about a vastly different approach to artificial intelligence that is based on a sensorimotor learning framework and Jeff Hawkin's Thousand Brains theory of the neocortex.
Dr Viviane Clay is Executive Director of the Thousand Brains Project and a scientist with years of experience in neuroscience, AI and machine learning. She has a PhD in Cognitive Computing. The Thousand Brains Project grew out of decades of research at Numenta, a leading company in neuroscience-based AI technology, and is developing Monty, a new type of artificial intelligence based on the sensorimotor principles observed in the brain. Numenta's co-founder Jeff Hawkins is Research Advisor and Board Member of the Thousand Brains Project.
You can find links to additional information about Monty and the Thousand Brains Project below:
https://thousandbrains.org/
https://linktr.ee/1000brainsproj
2 page overview: https://thousandbrains.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/TBP_Overview.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/@thousandbrainsproject
This week, we're thinking about how change happens, or more often doesn't happen in formal education! What are the practical approaches that education leaders and policy-makers sometimes miss when they are initiating change management and innovation processes. This week we welcome back Dr James Mannion to the podcast, in light of the recent publication of his book 'Making Change Stick'. He's done a fabulous job of synthesising the change management literature, including techniques and strategies from many disciplines so that you don't have to.
Dr James Mannion is the Director of Rethinking Education, a teacher training organisation dedicated to improving outcomes for children and young people through implementation science, self-regulated learning and practitioner inquiry. He has a Masters in person-centred education from the University of Sussex, and a PhD in self-regulated learning from the University of Cambridge. James is an Associate of Oracy Cambridge: The Hughes Hall Centre for Effective Spoken Communication, through which he provides training and consultancy for schools and other organisations, such as the National Gallery. He is a renowned expert in metacognition, self-regulation and self-regulated learning, and regularly presents on these topics at national and international conferences. James is also the host of the popular Rethinking Education podcast, now in the top 3% globally, which features long-form conversations about how we might reform education to bring about a more harmonious, less hair-raising state of world affairs. With Kate McAllister, James is the co-author of Fear is the Mind Killer: Why Learning to Learn deserves lesson time – and how to make it work for your pupils. He has also more recently published Making Change Stick: A Practical Guide to Implementing School Improvement.
James' website: https://www.drjamesmannion.com/
Book: www.makingchangestick.co
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mannion/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjamesmannion/
A huge part of the shifts we want to see in schools and in education more broadly is more agency, choice-making and self direction for young people. There is an increasingly compelling story about why this is important for them, as well as for the kinds of challenges we're facing in local communities and national and global society. But sometimes what isn't highlighted is the impact of not having those things. What toll does it take on youth well-being and mental health? So this week I'm joined by renowned clinical psychologist and educator Dr Naomi Fisher to help me find out.
Naomi is a clinical psychologist, author and EMDR-Europe Accredited trainer. She specialises in trauma, autism and alternative ways to learn. She has a doctorate in clinical psychology from Kings College London (Maudsley), a PhD in developmental cognitive psychology also from Kings College (IoPPN), and a degree in Experimental Psychology from the University of Cambridge. Naomi is also an alumni of UWC Atlantic College, Wales.
Whilst in the NHS, Naomi worked in primary care and specialist trauma services in London, as well as neurodevelopmental services. She has worked for the Metropolitan Police and third sector organisations. She now works in private practice with adults, adolescents and children. She runs self-help webinars for parents on how to help their children with common mental health difficulties.
Naomi is the author of several books on psychology, mental health and alternative education. She is the author of Changing our Minds: How children can take control of their own learning, A Different Way to Learn: Neurodiversity and Self-Directed Education, When The Naughty Step Makes Things Worse, The Teenager’s Guide to Burnout and What Can We Do When School’s Not Working?: An Illustrated Handbook for Professionals (with Abigail Fisher). Most of Naomi's books are beautifully illustrated by Eliza Fricker.
Social Links
Naomi's substack, Think Again: https://naomicfisher.substack.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/naomicfisher/?hl=en
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-fisher-psychologist/
Naomi's website: https://naomifisher.co.uk/