Perfectionism can drive excellence — but it can also stall progress, create stress, and keep teams stuck. In this episode, we explore the “pencils down” metaphor, helping you recognize when good enough is actually brilliant. We discuss the roots and benefits of perfectionism, the pitfalls of over-editing and micromanagement, and how leaders can model healthy standards. Packed with practical strategies for releasing control, encouraging iteration, and knowing when to move on, this episode is a guide for anyone ready to break free from perfectionism without sacrificing quality. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/ Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Thinking about leaving corporate America but not sure what it really takes? In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson to explore the mental, emotional, and practical shifts involved in breaking free from the corporate system. They unpack the culture and incentives of corporate life, address the fears and stigma around leaving, and discuss the logistical realities—from health insurance to financial planning—that often catch people off guard. Ashley and Indra share personal stories of doubt, courage, and resilience, highlighting the importance of community, support systems, and authentic identity when taking the leap. Whether you’re dreaming of entrepreneurship, a career pivot, or simply choosing yourself over a paycheck, this conversation offers insight, encouragement, and actionable advice for making the jump and building a life on your own terms. Key Takeaways: Recognize the mental and emotional shifts required to leave corporate life. Prepare for practical realities like benefits, finances, and pricing your work. Build community and support systems to replace what you leave behind. Embrace vulnerability, resilience, and the evolution of your authentic identity. Take the leap even if you don’t feel “ready”—your path will grow with you. Join us and discover how to choose yourself, navigate uncertainty, and redefine what freedom and fulfillment mean in your career.   Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Ashley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygracejefferson/  Ashley’s Website: ashleygracejefferson.com/  Ashley’s Newsletter: startup-baddie.beehiiv.com/  Ashley on Threads: https://www.threads.com/@startupbaddie  Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/  Indra’s Website: peopleprocessthings.com Indra’s Newsletter: peopleprocessthings.substack.com/ Interview with Cindy Gallop (3 addictions): https://youtu.be/eAJu225PcQU?si=5HETDKxb62OmbL1w 

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with  Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson to explore what it really feels like to be at a career crossroads. From packing up her life (and two cats!) to drive across the country, to rethinking what success looks like beyond job titles, Juleen shares her story of stepping outside her comfort zone and learning to trust herself. Together, Indra and Juleen unpack the tension between chasing external validation and building a life that feels authentic, sustainable, and joyful. They also reflect on the pressure of “picking your struggle,” filling your own cup, and how content creation can be both a tool for clarity and a leap of faith in itself. If you’ve ever wondered whether to keep climbing the ladder or carve your own path, this conversation is for you. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Juleen Mahabeer-Jackson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juleenbean/ Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Branding yourself isn’t optional anymore—it’s essential. In this episode, Indra sits down with Ashley Grace Jefferson, founder of Startup Baddie and F3 (Founders, Funders & Fractionals), to explore how to stand out, show up authentically, and even rebrand yourself when the time is right. They dive into the signs it’s time to rebrand, the difference between corporate and personal branding, and practical steps for making your brand visible—like social media, websites, and visual identity. Ashley shares her own journey, including the story behind her now-famous “Startup Baddie” identity, and offers actionable tips listeners can use immediately. Beyond the practical, they explore the emotional side of branding: vulnerability, imposter syndrome, handling feedback, and embracing radical acceptance as your brand evolves. Whether you’re an entrepreneur or a professional navigating the modern workplace, this conversation is full of insights to help you feel seen, confident, and ready to take bold steps forward. Key Takeaways: Recognize when it’s time to rebrand and why it matters. Align your brand with your values, personality, and goals. Show up authentically while managing fear and self-doubt. Take concrete steps to make your brand visible and consistent. Embrace the ongoing evolution of your personal or professional identity. Join us, and get ready to stand out, show up, and let your brand grow with you!   Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary    Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Ashley Jefferson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygracejefferson/ Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Your professional identity shapes how others see you, how you show up, and the opportunities that come your way. In this episode, we explore the difference between brand (how you want to be seen) and reputation (how others actually see you), and share practical strategies for defining and communicating your identity at work. We dive into real-world examples, tips for aligning your actions with your intentions, and ways to make your presence consistent across teams, projects, and platforms. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary    Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/  Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/ 

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra is joined by Victor Malena, founder of  Ops on Tap, to explore the subtle but powerful difference between being smart and being prepared. Victor shares a career-shaping story from an early mentor who taught him that success often comes less from being the "smartest person in the room" and more from being the one most ready to engage, ask questions, and adapt. Together, Indra and Victor unpack what preparedness looks like in practice—curiosity, clarity, and creating space for others to contribute—while reflecting on how identity, leadership, and even AI play into the dynamics of modern work. Whether you identify as an operator, a leader, or someone navigating the messy middle of your own career, this conversation offers fresh insight into why preparation isn’t just a safety net—it’s a strategy for thriving. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary    Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Victor Malena on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/victor-malena/ 

Let’s be honest. Networking often conjures awkward happy hours, forced small talk, and a vague sense that you should be doing more of it. But what if it didn’t have to feel gross? In this episode, Indra and Amanda break down how to keep your network warm, show up authentically, and build meaningful relationships that support your career and your humanity. Whether you’re introverted, overwhelmed, or just not sure where to start, this conversation offers a mix of pep talk and practical tips to make networking feel more like connection and less like a chore. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback  Connect with Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/  Connect with Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/ 

Indra drops into your feed with a short update on what’s ahead for The Messy Middle Matters. The next chapter features new voices and experiences, additional stories from the trenches, and an even deeper examination of the work that is rarely seen, heard, or celebrated. Don’t worry. Amanda will still be joining regularly.

In this episode, Indra and Amanda explore the difference between influence and authority and why mastering influence is essential for most people at work. While authority comes with titles and structure, influence is often how real change happens: through relationships, trust, and timing. They share personal stories of leading without formal power, the subtle art of planting seeds and letting ideas take root, and strategies for shifting mindsets and behavior over time. Whether you’re driving change from the middle or navigating a complex org, this episode offers practical tips for using influence to get things done—without steamrolling anyone in the process. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack a workplace tension that’s all too familiar: what happens when incentives, outputs, and motivation aren’t aligned. They begin by defining key terms: intrinsic incentives (such as purpose or pride), extrinsic incentives (like pay or praise), and outputs (the tangible results of one's work). Then, they dive into two primary sources of misalignment: Conflicting incentives between teams, crafts, or departments Leadership messages that don’t match real decisions or rewards With real-life examples, they explore the awkward dynamics that arise when your motivation doesn't match the system you're working in. Whether it's security versus speed, innovation versus client demands, or personal growth versus team goals, misalignment can erode culture, trust, and progress. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback 

Belonging to a team can be deeply fulfilling, but what happens when that sense of loyalty starts to conflict with your growth in your craft? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the tension between short-term team alignment and long-term career development. They explore what it means to be loyal to your project team, your department, or your craft, especially in roles like program management, design, and marketing, where craft-specific communities may be smaller or less visible. From navigating conflicting priorities to finding time for your own professional development, they offer insights for both individual contributors and leaders. Expect practical strategies, relatable stories, and a reminder that the messy middle is where real growth happens. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback

Why does everything feel urgent all the time — and what does it cost us? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the toll of poor prioritization on teams, leaders, and organizations.  From the illusion of decision-making to the chaos of shifting priorities, they explore the mental and operational burnout that comes when no one says no. They offer practical tools for creating clarity, setting boundaries, and making prioritization a leadership discipline, not just a labeling exercise.  Whether you're the one setting the priorities or trying to survive them, this episode offers validation and strategies for pushing back on the pressure. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback 

What do people mean when they say someone is “too senior”? In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the layered, often coded ways the word "senior" is used in hiring and professional contexts.  From recruiter conversations to team dynamics, the term is frequently a stand-in for other qualities—such as executive presence, high salary expectations, and perceived difficulty to manage—that often reveal unspoken biases. They explore the disconnect between titles and actual responsibilities, challenge the euphemistic use of senior, and call for clearer, more honest language in describing skills and roles.  If you’ve ever been told you’re too much or not enough without a clear why, this episode is for you. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary   Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback 

What do you do when a talented team member has outgrown what your organization can offer? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the rarely discussed topic of supporting team members who are ready to move on, not because they've failed, but because they’ve grown. From recognizing career ceilings to embracing talent mobility, they explore how letting go can be an act of leadership, not loss. You’ll hear practical strategies for navigating these moments with honesty, generosity, and long-term vision, turning exits into alumni relationships and potential into legacy. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm  Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7 

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda dive into a frustrating contradiction many professionals have experienced: the same companies that go out of their way to hire the brightest minds often turn around and disempower them the moment they arrive. From micromanagement to fear-based leadership, they examine the organizational dynamics that hinder strong talent and the downstream consequences for innovation, retention, and culture. With real-life stories and a healthy dose of kiki, they unpack why some leaders can’t “let go,” what it looks like when trust is missing, and how insecurity at the top often trickles down into broken systems. You’ll hear practical strategies for both managers and employees, whether you’re trying to create space for others to shine or just trying to breathe under someone else's heavy hand. If you’ve ever been hired for your strategic mind but treated like a task rabbit, this one’s for you.   Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm  Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee explore the language used in hiring, specifically the overused and often problematic terms “rockstar” and “unicorn.” They unpack how these labels, while meant to signal excellence, can set unrealistic expectations and perpetuate individualism over collaboration. Along the way, they highlight the real risks of unicorn hunting, the myth of the full-stack engineer, and why generalists deserve more love.They also explore different “letter-shaped” professionals (T-shaped, I-shaped, M-shaped, and more) and discuss how mismatched job titles, overloaded expectations, and leadership insecurity can hinder team performance. And yes, they even tip their hats to The Bangles while rethinking what being a “rockstar” really means at work. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm  Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee delve into the evolving landscape of personal branding, beginning with the notion that LinkedIn is no longer just a digital resume. From resharing posts to publishing thought leadership, today’s professionals are expected to build a visible, credible presence that extends far beyond job titles and bullet points. They reflect on the growing pressure to “show your work” online, how social algorithms shape visibility, and why blogging, podcasting, and even experimenting with AI can become practical tools in your branding toolkit. They also speak candidly about how hard it is to maintain a consistent presence—especially when you're already stretched thin—and why giving yourself grace matters just as much as hitting publish. Whether you’re just starting to show up online or trying to find your rhythm again, this episode offers both commiseration and encouragement. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

Taking notes isn’t always busywork; it can be a power move. In this episode, Indra and Amanda unpack the underrated but essential skill of effective note-taking in the workplace. They reflect on how their own approach has evolved from admin duty to strategic tool and explore why the person writing the notes often holds more influence than you think. From capturing decisions to controlling narratives, they share tactical advice on building a taxonomy, structuring your notes, and knowing what not to include. Whether you're tired of always being “the note taker” or looking to use your notes to drive strategy, this episode will shift how you see the role and the value it brings. They also get real about AI tools, human nuance, and how to set yourself and your team up for success in the messy middle of meetings. Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7 

We've all been there—staring at a calendar invite with a cryptic title and no context, then spending the meeting trying to figure out why you're even there. In this episode, Indra and Amanda tackle the all-too-familiar plague of purposeless meetings. From weekly leadership check-ins to post-meeting debriefs about the next meeting, they unpack the hidden cost of unclear gatherings: time, energy, morale, and productivity. They also offer practical tips for spotting meetings that should never happen—and tools to make the ones that do more effective and engaging. Whether you love a good working session or loathe yet another calendar clog, this one's for you. Let’s stop gathering without a goal. Useful Links: Meeting Design (book): https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/meeting-design/  Fixable Episode featuring Priya Parker from May 12, 2025 (podcast episode): https://podcasts.apple.com/zw/podcast/how-to-fix-meetings-w-master-fixer-priya-parker/id1677016372?i=1000708057390  The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker: https://www.priyaparker.com/book-art-of-gathering  Lean Coffee (a methodology for meetings that do not have a structure): https://agilecoffee.com/leancoffee/ The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: http://bit.ly/448qQxm Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://bit.ly/3ZVuFn7

In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the complex role of titles and credentials in professional life. From HRIS databases that never quite get it right to the very real ways marginalized folks use credentials as armor, this conversation explores how titles are used, misused, and misunderstood. They explore how titles can signal authority, invite (or block) collaboration, and even become tools of gatekeeping. You'll hear insights on how to navigate the mismatch between internal job classifications and your public-facing identity, the difference between strategic self-representation and rigid hierarchy, and why titles never tell the whole story—but still matter deeply. Whether you're a people leader trying to make equitable org charts, or someone trying to translate your experience for a new industry, this episode offers clarity, nuance, and maybe even a little permission to rewrite your title on your own terms.   Useful Links: The Messy Middle Matters Merch: shop.themessymiddlematters.com  The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: www.themessymiddlematters.com/glossary Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: www.themessymiddlematters.com/feedback