John Lennon’s famous song "Imagine" paints a vision of a perfect world — and cults often promise something similar. So in the spirit of fairness, this week, we take a surprising detour to explore the good things and the benefits that members say about life inside: belonging, structure, shared ideals, and hope for something better. These dreams are powerful — and they can make leaving hard. But are they just an illusion? Listen in, and let us know if we have done the topic justice!
Show Notes
Article: Gloriavale Leavers Support Trust 10 Reasons People Remain at Gloriavale
Article: BBC Australian sect members guilty of causing girl's death - information about the Elizabeth Struhs death
Following their conversation with Dr Steve Hassan in part 1, our hosts kept talking! In this part 2 of the conversation they talk about the importance of survivor voices in research, and why historically some researchers have appeared to listen to cult leaders rather than cult survivors. They share some illuminating facts about specific cult apologists, and how a minimising narrative has affected New Zealand cult survivors and their fights for truth and justice.
Show notes:
Show notes
Children of God investigations (and Eileen’s involvement) - get from Maria
Article: Secrets, Lies & a Mysterious Cup of Tea - Stuff - the police corruption in the Centrepoint case
Articles: The Cult Apologist Mafia - Luigi Corvaglia - Part 1, Part 2 & Part 3
Website - FECRIS (European Federation of Centres of Research and Information on Cults and Sects)
Article - Meet the Shadowy Scholars Supporting England's Doomsday Cult - Be Schofield
AROPAL & conference page
Steven Kent Article
Article: Dr Norris and the Gloriavale employment court case - Gloriavale Leavers Support Trust
Review of Days of Rain by Mossimo Itrivgne
This week we invite Dr Steven Hassan to join us to discuss the cult apologist movement. Dr Hassan is the author of the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control and the Influence Continuum. In this fascinating conversation we unpack the history behind this propaganda movement, why survivor voices are not welcome in their narratives, and examine why high profile cult apologists like Professor Eileen Barker might be given a platform to speak at academic conferences whose goal is to examine the harms of cults.
Show Notes
Website: London School of Economic and Political Science - Professor Eileen Barker
Website: Freedom of Mind Resource Centre - the Influence Continuum
Professional Development: Understanding Cults for Clinicians - Freedom of Mind
Survey: the use of the Bite Model as a tool for evaluating organisations
Website: Daniel Kahneman’s work on judgement and decision-making
Book: Releasing the Bonds by Dr Steven Hassan
Article: New York Times: Moon’s sect loses libel suit in London
What do cults and extremist terrorist organisations have in common? How are recruitment methods similar, and what are some of the vulnerabilities that such groups exploit in order to attract and retain conscripts? These are some of the questions which Caz and Dr Cyrus Abbasian, London-based psychiatrist, discuss as they explore this topic, covering neurodivergence, mental illness and coercive control in healthcare decision-making, amongst other things.
*Trigger Warning* What exactly is needed for an organisation to be safe for a child? Willow Duffy, co-founder and CEO of Safeguarding Children, answers these questions and more, in a conversation which explores what can be done when an organisation not only fails to have the rights of children at its centre, but instead actively promotes processes which harm children. Is a policy enough when the culture is destructive to a child’s welfare? Join us for this challenging but important conversation.
Gloriavale again! We come back to talk about the other reason that the closed West Coast community is in the news again - this time because the Overseeing Shepherd - the community’s leader, Howard Temple - has just been convicted of indecent assault of numerous girls and women at Gloriavale. Our hosts discuss the culture that allowed his public behaviour to become normal, the impossibility of speaking up as a victim in this community, and what lies behind the entitlement of his actions.
Gloriavale is all over the news again, and for the wrong reasons. This week our hosts talk about the recent Education Review Office report which revealed that the Gloriavale School has failed yet again to meet the basic requirements expected to function as an education provider. Liz explains the background to this report and asks the question, at what point is there enough evidence that this school cannot provide the necessary ingredients to educate children well and safely?
This week we have a bonus episode - part 2 of our conversational expose about the International Cultic Studies Association Conference which Caz went to in Montreal in July. We wrap up our conversation by talking about emerging evidence on child abuse in cults, the relationship between sacred values and the extreme actions a person is willing to take for their group, male experience of cultic abuse, collective narcissism and healing the spiritual self after it has been abused in in a cult.
Show notes
Website: International Cultic Studies Association
Survey - questionnaire for participants wishing to take part in research for people born and raised in cults
LinkedIn profile - Prof Omar Saldana - Identity Fusion -
LinkedIn profile - Dr Andre Jackson - Collective Narcissism
You'll love this pot luck episode! Caz has just returned from the International Cultic Studies Association conference in Montreal, Canada. We’re joined in this episode with ‘friend of the show’ Maria Eguerra who also went to the conference. Maria and Caz fill Lindy and Liz in on their learnings from the conference, covering topics such as neurodiversity, financial abuse, cult apologists, the power of social media for cult survivor activism. We talked so much we had to do a second episode!
Show Notes
Website: International Cultic Studies Association
Website: Get A Life Podcast
Instagram: Ben Woodbury excultboy
LinkedIn: Maria Esguerra
LinkedIn: Heidi Clemons
LinkedIn: Omar Saldana
It is difficult to truly leave a cult if someone you love remains in the group. In this chat Liz, Lindy and Caz talk about the difficult line that former members often have to navigate after leaving because they still have people in their lives who remain in the group. Join us as we discuss setting clear boundaries and keeping yourself safe, understanding what it is you want from the ongoing contact, and the lifeline ongoing contact can offer to your loved ones if they ever decide to leave.
Show Notes
Book: “Cult Trip” - Anke Richter
Podcast episode: Cult Chat episodes 48 & 49 - Health Care and Cults Parts 1 & 2 with Gina Catena
Book: “Walking Free from the Trauma of Coercive, Cultic and Spiritual Abuse” - Gillie Jenkinson
Podcast: Cult Chat episode 57 - Waking Up with Andre Jackson
Did you wake up one day to the realisation that your child has joined a cult? Are you struggling to know what to do? In today’s episode we discuss the challenges of having a cult controlling your relationship with your child, and trying to navigate the best path forward. Parent Renee Spencer talks to Lindy about the journey to understanding what happened and her efforts to reclaim an authentic relationship with her daughter after she was recruited into the Jesus Christians (aka the Kidney Cult).
Show notes
Documentary - The Dark Reality of the Kidney Cult - 7 News Spotlight
Podcast of Liz's experiences of witnessing her daughter join a cult in on YouTube: https://youtu.be/WbUnis4Vyp8
Podcast: Let’s Talk About Sects - The Jesus Christians Part One and Part Two
Podcast: Let’s Talk About Sects - Cult Bride and Providence/JMS with Liz Cameron
Book - Carol Giambalvo - Exit Counseling: A Family Intervention
Article - Carol Giambalvo - Family Interventions for Cult-Affected Loved Ones
Book - Steve Hassan - Combatting Cult Mind Control
ISCA Article - What Impact Does Cult Involvement have on a Family Member
ISCA Article - Steve K. D. Eichel (ICSA) For Families Who Suspect That a Loved One May Be Involved With a High-Demand Group (Cult)
ISCA Website - general information about cult indoctrination for families
Renee’s Website: www.recoverfromcoercivecontrol.com
Today our Cult Chat hosts share what listeners have told them are the best things about life after leaving a cult. From finding space to be who you truly are, to getting the chance to make mistakes, and to being allowed to have the full range of human emotions, this episode digs right down into the wonderful things that leavers can experience once they set out on their new post-cult lives. Be prepared to be moved to tears in this hopeful episode about what you might find on the other side.
Show notes
Website: The Religious Trauma Collective Annual Event - 19-21 June, web-based conference
Website: Decult
Resource: Thinking of Leaving - Olive Leaf Network
In this second of three episodes on leaving, Lindy is joined by Liz Sallows, Canadian psychotherapist and grief expert. Liz and Lindy discuss the unexpected (and often unrecognised) sadness which accompany the freedoms of leaving a cult. There is a lot to grieve - loss of a community, loss of an ideal, loss of everything you have known and love. We will hear about ambiguous loss, the importance of rest after leaving, and why going slow is absolutely ok. Liz shares practical tips and hope for the grieving.
Show notes:
Website: Thresholds of Life Counselling - Liz’s website
Theophila Pratt, author of “Unveiled - A Story of Surviving Gloriavale” joins the team for our first of three episodes about leaving cults. This compelling conversation explores the immediate challenges, discusses identity construction, and the difficulties of finding people to help along the way. Theo and our hosts explore these topics and more, with a focus on those born and raised in a cult, inviting those thinking of leaving to sit up and listen.
Links
Website: Theo’s website where you can buy her book
Book: Unfollow by Megan Phelps-Roper
Book: Excommunicated by Craig Hoyle
Website: NZ Community Growth Trust therapy fund - For information about funded therapy for survivors of cults in NZ
Event: Religious Trauma Collective - Annual event - to find out about the June 19-21 2025 event
Event: Decult Fund & Film night - June 13 2025 event
Resource: Olive Leaf Network - Thinking of Leaving? booklet
There’s a lot going on in the cultiverse! We thought it time for an update on the culty happenings in our neck of the woods. In this episode you'll hear more than you want to know about chickens, rats, and mice, and heaps about cults. From news from the Olive Leaf Network, to Caz's connections with professionals & researchers, to Liz sharing culty tree metaphors with professionals on the West Coast. This episode has everything, including some really odd census data about Gloriavale!
Show notes:
Webpage: Olive Leaf Network and how to donate
Webpage: International Cultic Studies Association home page and Montreal annual conference
Podcast: Cult Chat Episode 58: 2x2s and Survivor Advocacy with Tristan Phipps and Kyle Eggleton
Podcast: Cult Chat Episode 55, 56 and 57 - Are the Jehovah Witnesses a Cult? (Parts one and two) and Waking Up - with Dr Andre Jackson
Article: One News coverage of Two By Twos
Article: Inquiry into cults prompted by media attention on Geelong Revival Centre in Victoria.
Facebook group: Stop Religious Coercion Australia run by Ryan Carey
Podcast: Secrets We Keep - Pray Harder - series about Geelong Revival Centre
Article: BBC - Japan court dissolves controversial 'Moonies' church
Article - The Saints cult and the convictions for the manslaughter of 8 years old Elizabeth Struhs - Brisbane
Webpage: Theophila Pratt - Unveiled - A Story of Surviving Gloriavale
Article: Press - Gloriavale population falls while 100 babies born, census shows
In this second of two chats Maria and Caz talk about bad information, and the critical role of education in teaching discernment between good information and bad. Maria shares about coming to understand how the cult used psychological processes to control members, and how often distrust of establishments persists in the minds of cult survivors after leaving. The duo chat about trauma, and the role of safe spaces, and candidly share how even professional people get triggered into the past.
Maria was born into one of history's most harmful cults, the Children of God. Maria joins us in the first of two chats to detail what the group was like from the perspective of a child. Maria brings her knowledge and expertise as a psychologist to the conversation, sharing both the harms that children experienced in the group, and also the results of a 2024 study which she authored which details the serious consequences in adulthood of growing up in a cult.
Join us for a moving conversation with Tristan Phipps and Dr Kyle Eggleton, who share about the Two by Twos in NZ. This organisation is currently under FBI investigation for child abuses, which has prompted NZ survivors to speak up. Our guests talk to us about the hierarchy & control of the church, the social context which has made systemic child sexual abuse possible, and the work they are doing as advocates in a movement that's drawing survivors together into safe spaces.
Show Notes
Two By Two kiwis who left sect being probed by FBI form support group - RNZ article
Laura McConnel Conti’s new podcast Truth 2x2 Cult Kids - a new podcast from a multi-generational survivor of the church in Australia
Lets Talk About Sects Two by Two episodes - https://www.ltaspod.com/26 and https://www.ltaspod.com/2x2s-update
ABC - Survivors waiting for compensation and FBI Child Sex Abuse Investigation
Cherie Kropp-Ehrig’s website
A Hulu documentary The Secrets of the Two by Two church
BBC Sounds Crime Next Door Season 2 Servants and Saints - podcast series exploring the church from a UK based journalist
Wings For Truth - Guidance and support those who have been sexually abused within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers (aka Two by Two or Truth)
Facebook - Surviving the Truth NZ - Message Tristan and Kyle
Show notes for therapist episodes of Cult Chat
Olive Leaf Network - Email Lindy for resources for therapists
Religious Trauma Collective resources
We loved Andre so much we got him back for a third episode! This time he tells us about his PhD on waking up from indoctrination in the Jehovah Witnesses. In this fascinating interview you’ll find out all about the role of doubt (even in the most fervent believer), the trigger event which leads to the effort to resolve the doubt, and if that isn’t resolved… the turning point which leads to waking up. This episode will give you the language to understand this experience common to people who have left a cult.
Show Notes
Dr Andre Jackson Dissertation - Waking Up: A Narrative Inquiry into Deconversion Stories by former Jehovah's Witnesses Bethelites Dr Andre Jackson Presentation at ICSA 2024 - Waking Up
Dr Andre Jackson returns in this episode to finish his chat with Liz about the JWs, their doctrines and the methods they use to control members. Together the two examine different methods of control utilized by the JWs, particularly information control, use of propaganda, and justifications for misleading people for the benefit of the organisation. At the end of this episode Liz is joined by Lindy and Caz to dissect the interview, with a view to understanding how these themes apply to cults across NZ.
