T Matthew Brown was raised in a secular, supportive household that valued intellect. He was out as gay from when he was 12. So how did he end up in a Sufi cult, with his named change, and married to a woman. It's not a wild story. Its indoctrination and inculturation by degrees. But its such an interesting story. Tee is bringing his performance art piece to Melbourne from the 30th of September to the 5th Octover, 5:30pm every night at Spielhaus in Melbourne. Get your tickets here melbournefringe.com.au/whats-on/events/cult-piece and follow him on Instagram at @quityourcult 

Yes, I used "The Good Place" naming paradigm for this one. Cynane Shay joins me to talk about the wildest thing I've heard in a while. Well, the wildest thing I've heard since this morning when I read the latest Trump Headlines, because thats the world we live in at the moment. Cynane is a nuclear engineer whose fascination for conspiracy theories and the far-right has caused to her to look deep into what we believe and why. And this one is a doozy. Follow her On instagram (taking off the tinfoil hat) or check out her website below.  www.TakingOffTheTinfoilHat.com

I've been wanting to get Celeste on the podcast for a while. As an out and proud trans woman who doesn't hold the same hatred for church as what the modern day Church seems to hold for trans people, she is a gentle and calm voice in a turbulent sea. In the lead up to the second inauguration of Donald Trump, she was rushing facial feminisation surgery, and now she's living authentically as a parent and partner in a country in which being herself is a revolutionary act. She is trans. And she is Christian. And you should follow her on substack at https://www.celestefinally.com or on instagram @celestefinally  

Today's episode is a special one. When my friend and co-runner of the Victorian Cult Survivors Network told me she had finally found the courage to tell her story in its full and raw form, I shot my hand up to host it here with the Unchurchables. Renee lost her daughter to the Kidney Cult (also known as the Jesus Christians). Somewhere, her daughter still exists. She is still loved and missed, but mother and daughter are on opposite sides of the ocean, and of an idealogical divide brokered by a cruel cult leader - one who Renee successfully sued for defamation and won. Todays episode is a heartbreaking tale with all of the trigger warnings. But I hope it serves as a reminder that the damage of cults isn't limlited to the one on the inside. Estranged parents and family of those radicalised into coercive cults are part of that damage too, and their stories matter greatly. Go kindly as you listen. Thank you Renee for finding your voice, and fighting for reform. One day, I hope to celebrate with you as your daughter finds her way back to you. Find her work at the links below:  www.recoverfromcoercivecontrol.com⁩   ⁦https://youtube.com/@recoverfromcoercivecontrol?si=erwBTZuadZn17PYH⁩  ⁦https://www.tiktok.com/@renee_rfcc?_t=ZS-8xH0nR18CoC&_r=1⁩ 

This episode comes with a content warning: we are discussing heavy themes including coerced marriage and modern slavery. Please look after yourself as you read.This is an important episode. Art Sherwood, host of the DisAllusioned podcast, joins me to talk about how she applied for a job as a massage therapist and got radicalised into a philosophy cult that later coerced her into marrying the cult leader. He was blind, riddled with physical health issues, and 37 years her senior. Ari did not fit any of the 'normal' risk factors for joining a cult. She was just looking for a job. Her parents did everything right to keep contact with her. Still, this happened. As the Victorian Government undertakes an inquiry into cults and fringe groups, stories like this matter. Not all cults are religious. Not all cult recruits fit the same profile. Listen well. THIS is the harm we have to stop

This episode lands at a crucial point of religiopolitical history, as we talk about all things New Apostolic Reformation. Academic Jon Sawyer joins me as we talk about some juicy, heavy hitting topics - conspiratorial demonology, weaponisation of testimony culture, self-invisible LGBT Christians, sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts, load language inside Evangelicalism, white supremacy and indoctrination techniques used in Christian Nationalism. I mean...that about covers whats wrong in the world, doesn't it? You really should look at the rest of Jon's work at https://www.jonsawyer.org/ and of course his contribution to Dr Lucas Wilsons, book "Shame Sex Attraction." (Find it here https://amzn.asia/d/5Et3wfT) Its a vital time in history to be informed, especially if you are in a Westernised nation where the backlash against progress, and the decrying of "Wokeism" (ie. Empathy and respect for others) threatens a Christian Nationalist uprising masked as resurging religiopolitial conservatism. This episode, Blake Chastains episode (and book), and Lukes episode (and book) need to be top of your to-listen lists. And I'm not often demanding like that. 

When Dr Luke Wilson reached out to me with a copy of his book, I was struck by the most obvious thing in the world - I'm the ex-wife of a gay conversion therapy survivor but I've never had someone on the podcast who could actually talk in depth about that very thing.    I guess it was too close to home. But its time. We need to move from representation to meaningful change, and that means understanding on a deep and nuanced level that sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts aren't always what you think they are. This episode hits on some big topics. Mental health, sexuality, genocide. Look after yourself as you listen. And remember you can call helplines if you need. In Australia, Lifeline is 13 11 14 and Qlife is 1800 184 527. In America, you can call 988. This is important stuff for all of us. But if its you, its REALLY important. There are safe hands to catch you as you recover.  The long-ass URL for Dr Luke's book, Shame-Sex Attraction is as follows: https://www.amazon.com.au/Shame-Sex-Attraction-Survivors-Stories-Conversion-ebook/dp/B0D1S6SHC8/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.68eQVaWIgXB4gJREAz4RVPbwpkkCcVmdfJlm2WsT94Mnu2tfgUqzMhIVzDdME3t13Eth7h1oBh8slz8hQdk24wKq0TW4WLFIA3DIhDNVaV4.FxuRjpQ7Xp9MBxN-GqDYKhC_ZWqJX3TOy0nUcAmUzl4&dib_tag=se&keywords=shame-sex+attraction&qid=1733923623&sr=8-1   Luke's social media handles are as follows.  Instagram: @lukeslamdunkwilson Threads: @lukeslamdunkwilson Bluesky: @lukeslamdunkwilson.bsky.social Twitter/X: @wilson_fw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucas-wilson-2a0753b1/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/luke.wilson.96  

In this episode of "The Pipelines" series, we meet Jane Kennedy. While she is now a religious trauma therapist and co-founder of the Religious Trauma Collective in Australia (which compiles resources and religious trauma-informed therapists for those of us who are recovering), she was once a youth leader and church planter. In this episode, Jane and I talk about some of the big themes that have emerged in her walk into and out of church, and the things that pop up in therapy a lot: from white saviourism, to dissociation, body awareness, "the father heart of God" and other recruitment tactics. Jane's calm presence and hard-won wisdom makes this episode a lot more relaxing than it could be! Find her at: on Substack at https://jane748.substack.com and on Instagram at @janekennedycounselling    Find me at: clareheathmcivor.substack.com and on instagram at @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor

In an episode that was recorded two days after the Trump victory, and less than 200 days from the next Australian Federal Election, this episode could not be more important or timely. In it, I chat to Blake Chastain, who launched the Exvangelical Podcast back in 2016 as he talks about his new book "Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back." We have long known that, where America goes religiously and politically, the western world tends to follow. In line with this, strains of Christian Nationalism, even white Christian nationalism, and other forms of fringe and extreme right-wing politics has spiked both here and overseas. Its one to pay attention to. Make sure you give it a listen. And if you're in Australia in the political scene, make sure you take the warnings and the advice seriously. www.blakechastain.com https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/747796/exvangelical-and-beyond-by-blake-chastain/ Instagram @brchastian_

You know I like to get existential. This time last year, I sat down with author and academic, William/Bill Egginton to talk about his book, "The Rigor of Angels." I'd been contacted by his publicist and was intrigued about the book and what it might offer exvangelicals who are reinventing themselves and might not know anything about poetry, philosophy, and quantum mechanics, much less the meaning of the Universe. It was too good a conversation to let sit in the archives after my year of hiatus. Since our chat, his book has won some awards including New York Times and New Yorker book of the year. You'll love it. And I hope you love this chat. Find out more here https://www.williamegginton.com/ or here https://www.amazon.com.au/Rigor-Angels-Heisenberg-Ultimate-Reality/dp/0593316304

Its quite a journey to go from eldest pastors kid, with full worship leader, Sunday school teacher, 'dating revelation' adherent and homeschool survivor to forest walking animistic spiritualist who runs womens circles. But that's Jess Manusama. She's a breath of fresh air. She runs the insta account @the.connectedself and the web page www.theconnectedself.com.au If you're one of those people who lost touch with themself, their sense of embodiment, the right to own your story and feel it, give her a follow. If you want to work with her in womens circles, deconstructors circles, or one to one mentoring, head over to her socials or website. Jess is such a soothing and non-judgemental presence, with a sense of humour but an ability to create and hold space where we connect with the medicine within. All outside of dogma. Because the last thing we need as we deconstruct is more of that. 

Unchurchable is back from a long hiatus, and kicking off "The Pipelines" series is the incredible R. Scott Okamoto. Scott was a teacher at a Christian college when his deconstruction started. Rather than solidifying a waning faith, Scott got the same Sunday School answers to life's big questions. Join us as we talk about Zionism, white supremacy, the chinks in the armour of Biblical literacy, and finally, his journey into authorhood and podcaster-ness. Find Scott hosting the "Horny Chapel" and "Chapel Probation" podcasts, as well as his instagram (@rsokamoto) and Twittere (@rsokamoto) for more good stuff! 

Hey all! Yes, I know I disappeared. But I'm back, and so is unchurchable. If you've got ten minutes, have a listen to this teaser and, if you feel like it, slide into my DM's on twitter (@clare_mcivor) or on Instagram @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor) to let me know your thoughts. This season is going to get nerdy! Go deeper into themes rather than focusing solely on survival stories, and talk about the pipelines. "The pipelines?", you say... "What do you mean by that?" Have a listen and find out

In this months episode, the lovely, courageous, intelligent Ronna Detrick joins me to talk about her newly-released book "Rewriting Eve." It started from a simple place: in seminary, when the guys translated a passage of scripture, it came out vastly different to how the women's translations came out. The subjects and verbs were correct. But the nuance, the subtext, the angle - all vastly different. And so Ronna set about rewriting Eve (and other Biblical women). The result is powerful insight into what happens when we let women tell their own stories. I'll admit this one hit heavy for me. After all, I am a woman who is only just learning to write her own story. I suspect many Exvangelical women may feel the same. We've been called crazy, headstrong, unstable, divisive, emotional, Jezebelic and all sorts. But maybe that was patriarchy writing our stories for us. Find out more about Ronna on Insta, FB or here https://ronnadetrick.com  And enjoy the episode 

This is a "Listen hard" kind of episode. What do conspiracy theories, anti-semitic handbooks, lizard people, space lasers, Qanon, 5G towers and cults have in common? It's mindboggling how the checkered history of Evangelicalism is imbued with anti-semitism and white supremacy. I'm not sure why I'm surprised, when evangelicalism itself is a very whitewashed sort of reality. This episode talks about how totalitarianism, conspiracy theories and cults are built on a very similar, very toxic sort of foundation. Find Cynane on Instagram - @taking.off.the.tinfoil.hat - or on the interwebs where you can find her booklist - www.takingoffthetinfoilhat.com

In this episode, the voices from the "I was a teenage fundamentalist" podcast join me to talk about the things they've learned along the way as exvangelicals, as people, as podcast hosts and community builders...and as two guys who had to learn to call bullshit sometimes. Troy Waller and Brian McDowell take an irreverent walk through their lives and talk about the commonalities we all seem to share when it comes to our individual journeys post-church. "I was a teenage fundamentalist" is an Australian-based deconstruction podcast and community that is making waves, and its a treat to have another couple of Aussie accents in my own corner of the interwebs. If you want to listen or subscribe to their pod, its here https://open.spotify.com/show/5tbYeCgmIuYwZBiZ9yGKbw?si=31d555756c5d491f and my episode is here https://open.spotify.com/episode/24L6bYEQEtQ0yQiF1FeLwq?si=db432056f890453e

Australian politics, Planetshakers, puppies, dumpster fires, right-wing infiltration of mainstream political parties, porn scandals, and branch stacking - this episode has it all. Political commentator, marketer and exvangelical, Brent Hodgson stops by the podcast to talk about all the good stuff! If you’ve been curious about the Australian political scene or needed a hand to make sense of it, this one is not to be missed.

It was hard to know what to call this one. Emma Ocean is, pun intended, an ocean of wisdom based on the lived experience of escaping toxic religion and the qualified experience of a psychologist with a bit of mysticism, cosmetology, philosophy and shadow-working brilliance thrown in. It was a conversation full of light-bulb moments for me as we talked about the healing journey, the scintilla or spark of that universal light in all of us, and some gentle wisdom for people from all spaces in deconstruction as we wade through the work of healing and finding ourselves. Oh, and there are Julia Roberts references in here too. 

Angela Herrington is a deconstruction coach. What exactly is that? She's not going to tell you, because every deconstruction journey is different. But one thing is for sure, we all need someone in our corner who will hold space for us, refuse to embody any sort of control or coerciveness, and who can help us understand that deconstruction is as much about grief and loss as it is about anything else. Join us as we talk about all the things, and find Angela on the interwebs at www.angelajherrington.com 

This session lead off with me forgetting to cancel the podcast, dropping the kids off at school late, and turning up to do an interview unprepared, unshowered, and without a stitch of makeup. For reference, Kit Kennedy is glam af and never unprepared. But Andrew lead off with "if it aint messy it aint worth it," and we were friends straight away. Actually, what I felt from my conversation with Andrew was safety...and thats what he offers people who are dipping their toes into the uncertain waters of deconstruction, or who are trying to hold onto faith in a way that feels safe. Its a great sesh. Enjoy