Join Rohin and Praveen as they celebrate the one-year anniversary of the 2x2 podcast, reflecting on 52 episodes of business and strategy discussions. This special ‘vibes’ episode looks back at their journey creating Two by Two, the evolution of the show, and future plans, deviating from their usual topic-focused format.
Praveen shares key meta-narratives he picked from the past year, including a "desperation-driven convergence" where companies like Flipkart and Phonepe try to become each other. He also highlights themes such as the government shaping markets as a "competitor" or through "artificial constraints", and a "great career existential crisis" impacting roles from engineers to marketers. Other themes include the "destruction and retreat of big tech in India", the podcast's contrarian framing of topics, and a focus on India's "livability crisis", addressing issues like urban infrastructure and air pollution.
We’d love to hear what you think about Two by Two as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
In 2016, Mukesh Ambani stood on stage and made a promise that seemed impossible. Jio would give away data virtually free and still build a profitable business. The telecom industry laughed. Six years later, Jio had 450 million subscribers and had driven three major competitors into extinction or merger.
Now imagine that same playbook applied to your money.
Last year, when Jio partnered with BlackRock, the world's largest asset manager with over $10 trillion under management, most people saw it as just another foreign partnership. But here's what they missed.
India's mutual fund industry manages around 50 trillion rupees. And yet, only 3-4% of Indians have ever invested in a mutual fund. That's 1.3 billion people whose savings are locked in fixed deposits, gold, and real estate, earning returns that barely keep pace with inflation.
To put this in perspective, Americans invest approximately 55% of their savings in financial markets, whereas Indians invest around 3-4%.
That gap represents the single largest wealth creation opportunity in the world.
Blackrock's Larry Fink knows this, Jio's Mukesh Ambani knows this.
And more importantly, they know something that the incumbents don't want to admit: that India's investment industry is ripe for the kind of disruption that decimated the telecom sector.
Because what's bigger than one 800-pound gorilla? Two 800-pound gorillas.
Zerodha*, India's largest broker, has 15 million users. That's very impressive, until you realise that Jio adds that many telecom subscribers in a single quarter. The entire Indian mutual fund industry has 40 million unique investors.
Jio has more customers in just Mumbai.
And unlike telecom, where Jio could simply outspend and outlast its competitors, financial services are about trust, not just technology.
You may switch your phone carrier for cheaper data, but will you hand over your life savings to the same company that provides your internet?
In today’s episode, we are asking the question that's keeping every person working in financial services across mutual funds and brokerages awake at night.
Can Jio BlackRock do to investing in wealth what Jio did to telecom?
Joining hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar for the discussion are Manish Jain, co-founder and CPO of Sahi Broking. Manish previously served as the head of product at Fisdom and was the SVP of product and digital transformation at Kotak Securities, and Nirav Karkera, who's the head of research at Fisdom, a leading fintech platform for wealth management.
Welcome to episode 52 of Two by Two.
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Additional reading:
The motley crowd joining the great Indian mutual-fund rush….- https://the-ken.com/long_and_short/the-motley-crowd-joining-the-great-indian-mutual-fund-rush/
Jio Blackrock is not your usual Reliance offensive- https://the-ken.com/long_and_short/jio-blackrock-is-not-your-usual-reliance-offensive/
Additional listening:
Can Smallcase maintain its relevance in a changing market?- https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-smallcase-maintain-its-relevance-in-a-changing-market/
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This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
In an unprecedented crackdown, India’s capital markets regulator SEBI has fined the global trading giant Jane Street over ₹4,800 crore, accusing it of systematically manipulating the Indian equity options market. The penalty—one of the largest ever imposed by SEBI—stemming from an investigation into just 21 trading days, could expand significantly, with potential illicit gains estimated between ₹30,000 and ₹40,000 crore still under review.
First reported by Anand Kalyanaraman, The Ken’s finance editor, the case centres on Jane Street’s alleged use of “violent expiry” tactics: buying large positions in call or put options and then executing disproportionate trades in the cash segment of the Sensex or Nifty to sway index levels in their favour. On other days, they profited from “quiet expiry” strategies by offloading options to retail investors, extracting premiums in a manner which signals towards “telltale manipulation” devoid of any economic rationale.
The fallout strikes at the core of India’s derivatives-heavy market. With over 80% of global equity options contracts (by volume) traded daily in India, the segment has become a high-risk zone for retail participants—90% of whom reportedly lost money between FY2021 and FY2024, racking up collective losses of ₹1.8 lakh crore. The lottery-like appeal of low-cost, high-reward bets has turned into a trap for many.
Jane Street has defended its actions as “basic index arbitrage”. The firm is likely to challenge the ban, even as SEBI continues to scrutinise a broader timeline of trades.
Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by Anand Kalyanaraman, The Ken’s finance editor and Mayank Bansal, President of a UAE-based hedge fund, who helped break the story, to discuss how all of this played out and what happens next.
Welcome to episode 51 of Two by Two.
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Additional reading
Is Jane Street the all-powerful hidden hand in India’s stock market? - https://the-ken.com/story/is-jane-street-the-all-powerful-hidden-hand-in-indias-stock-market/
The mystery fund playing god and wreaking havoc on the stock market - https://the-ken.com/story/the-mystery-fund-playing-god-and-wreaking-havoc-on-the-stock-market/
Did NSE sleep at the wheel in the Jane Street Saga? - https://the-ken.com/long_and_short/did-nse-sleep-at-the-wheel-in-the-jane-street-saga/
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Check out The Ken's new careers podcast, 90,000 hours:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5HEi59iUPRMMFfUvxeio47
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/90-000-hours/id1826777519
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This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
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Follow The Ken on Apple Podcasts or tune in on The Ken app.
In the 50th episode of Two by Two, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan examine the contrasting open-source trajectories of China, the US, and India in the context of AI, and where India fell short.
While China, despite being authoritarian, has surged ahead in open-source AI leadership with models like DeepSeek R1, India has fallen behind. The 2010s are framed as a “lost decade” for Indian open source, characterised by a vibrant tech ecosystem that failed to foster a meaningful contribution culture.
China’s rise can be attributed to its unique mix of strategic intent, creative insecurity (following the Huawei ban in 2019), and human capital. It views open source as a geopolitical tool, not a philosophy. India, by contrast, is stuck in a “third way”—neither as open and capitalistic as the US nor as strategically pragmatic as China.
What would it take for Indian to do the same?
Bring academia to the forefront, fund open source efforts without restrictions, and build a developer culture driven by curiosity, not just career advancement. Open source needs to be viewed more broadly than just code—it’s an innovation infrastructure and a form of digital autonomy. Without this shift, India risks missing the AI bus entirely.
And joining them for the discussion are two wonderful guests.
Pranay Kotasthane is deputy director at the Takshashila Institution and chairs its High Tech Geopolitics Programme. He co-writes Anticipating the Unintended, a newsletter on public policy ideas and frameworks, and co-hosts Puliyabaazi, a popular Hindi-Urdu podcast on politics, policy, and technology.
Kailash Nadh is the CTO of Zerodha*. Kailash calls himself a developer, tinkerer and absurdist. Kailash is a hobbyist developer who has been working on open source projects for the last 25 years.
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Additional reading:
Why China is giving away its tech for free - https://www.economist.com/business/2025/06/17/why-china-is-giving-away-its-tech-for-free
Anticipating the Unintended (newsletter) - https://publicpolicy.substack.com/
Deepseek, AI sovereignty, and India - https://nadh.in/blog/deepseek-ai-sovereignty-india/
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This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
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*Zerodha’s perennial fund Rainmatter Capital is an investor in The Ken.
One channel. Every show. No more switching feeds.
Follow The Ken on Apple Podcasts or tune in on The Ken app.
Microsoft, Amazon, Google, GS, JP Morgan Chase, Deloitte, Walmart, Bosch, Adobe, Target, Salesforce, AstraZeneca.
What’s common to these dozen organisations? Other than the fact that they are, well, large, well-respected and innovative?
They all operate their own development and innovation centres in India. Often sprawling campuses and offices across multiple cities, filled with Indian engineers, project managers, product experts, designers, HR, finance and, well, virtually every function that’s required to run a business.
They’re called GCCs. Global Capability Centres.
There are over 1,000 global organisations that collectively operate over 1,700 GCCs across India. They employ over 2 million professionals. They generate over $40 billion in annual value, set to surpass $100 billion in another five years.
So, what’s the problem?
Well, most GCCs are technically doing work that could have been outsourced to Indian outsourcers like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, etc. In fact, GCCs are so successful a strategy that they’re growing much faster than Indian outsourcers.
And as if taking away potential revenue from Indian outsourcers weren’t enough, GCCs are now also taking away talent. That’s right. They’re hiring experienced and talented professionals using higher salaries, better brands and the promise of better work.
It appears to be a zero-sum game. A pie that isn’t growing.
Both our guests for today’s episode are experts on GCCs, and they had a lot to say about the same. Our first guest is Narayana Ramamurthy, whom you’ll hear us address as ‘Naru’ throughout the discussion. Naru is the founder and CEO of Workfutr, a company which enables US and European organisations to harness India's offshore capability in technology, operations, and transformation. And our second guest is Karthik Padmanabhan, who is the managing partner for GCCs at Zinnow, a global management and consulting firm founded in 2002 that partners and advises global enterprises, outsourcers, PE firms around AI, automation, outsourcing and well, GCCs.
Welcome to episode 49 of Two by Two.
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Additional reading:
ANSR’s Ahuja duo on why “everybody, from Victoria’s Secret to Google, will do pretty much the same thing in India” - https://the-ken.com/story/ansrs-ahuja-duo-on-why-everybody-from-victorias-secret-to-google-will-do-pretty-much-the-same-thing-in-india/
GCCs could pose a potential threat to Indian IT - https://analyticsindiamag.com/gcc/gccs-could-pose-a-potential-threat-to-indian-it/
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This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
Meesho, Rapido, and Zepto have managed to challenge what seemed like firmly established duopolies, such as Amazon and Flipkart, Uber and Ola, and Blinkit and Swiggy Instamart, respectively.
The third-place player trying to break the duopoly with its ‘challenger DNA’ came in and caught up with the incumbents by targeting the unserved or underserved markets they overlooked, innovation, be it through providing a zero commission platform for sellers, delivering groceries in minutes or connecting drivers to riders based on a subscription model.
But what other factors cause this disruption in these duopolies?
A critical factor enabling these new entrants is often incumbent complacency combined with venture capital pressures in India, which push established players towards short-term profits over broader market expansion.
In episode 48 of Two by Two, we discuss how these disruptors came about, and based on their journey, can we observe other such disruptive third players in India?
Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan was Professor Rajendra Srivastava, former dean at the Indian School of Business and presently the executive director at the ISB Centre for Business Innovation.
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Additional reading:
Does your company have an India strategy – https://hbr.org/2023/06/does-your-company-have-an-india-strategy
Why Indigo Airlines may be India’s best export to the world after cricket and bollywood? – https://medium.com/@rks_72086/why-indigo-airlines-may-be-indias-best-export-to-the-world-after-cricket-and-bollywood-5beb92182343
Market-based assets and shareholder value – https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/002224299806200102
Peripheral Vision: Detecting the Weak Signals that Will Make or Break Your Company written by George S. Day and Paul J. H. Schoemaker (recommended by Professor Shrivastava)
The Rule of Three: Surviving and Thriving in Competitive Markets written by Jagdish Sheth and Rajendra Sisodia (recommended by Professor Shrivastava)
Additional listening:
Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/
Vidit Aatrey on building a problem-first mindset into Meesho’s culture – https://the-ken.com/podcasts/first-principles/vidit-aatrey-on-building-a-problem-first-mindset-into-meeshos-culture/
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This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
Want to attend The Ken’s next event—How AI is Breaking and Remaking the Way Products are Built?
🎟️ Join us in person or on the livestream—tickets here
Bengaluru, India’s tech hub, is unfortunately also a poster child for urban chaos. A city bursting at the seams, where unplanned growth has pushed its infrastructure to breaking point. Imagine roads that can’t handle the sheer volume of vehicles, leading to traffic jams that eat away at hours of your day. It’s not a minor inconvenience; it’s a daily grind that impacts productivity and quality of life.
And it doesn’t stop there. Bengaluru is constantly battling water scarcity. When the monsoons hit, it’s a different kind of nightmare. Even something as fundamental as waste management is a perpetual struggle, with the city’s rapid expansion overwhelming existing systems.
Ultimately, Bengaluru’s plight is a reminder of what happens when urban development races ahead without a long-term vision. It’s a web of planning failures, governance challenges, and population boom. Until these issues are addressed, Bengaluru and many other Indian cities will continue to grapple with their struggles.
But despite all of these issues, what is the fix for Bengaluru’s problems?
Hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar try to uncover where it went wrong and what the eventual fix will be for its issues, along with our guest Pravar Chaudhary, creative director at Bengawalk, a creative agency that tells stories about urbanisation and climate change in India.
Bengawalk, for the netizens of Bengaluru, is a familiar face with their regular updates on what’s going on in the city and the inconveniences and quirks of Bengaluru on Instagram, X (formerly Twitter) and Youtube. They break down the cause of citizens’ frustration with Bengaluru with their detailed breakdowns, and they do this beautifully with their videos, writing, and design published online.
You can follow all of their work here.
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Additional reading:
Bengaluru’s solutions are Bengaluru’s problems – https://the-ken.com/the-nutgraf/bengalurus-solutions-are-bengalurus-problems/
Bengaluru’s solution for its traffic mess that tech couldn’t fix: even more tech – https://the-ken.com/story/bengalurus-solution-for-its-traffic-mess-that-tech-couldnt-fix-even-more-tech/
It sucks to be a tenant in Bengaluru right now – https://the-ken.com/story/it-sucks-to-be-a-renter-in-bengaluru-right-now/
Videos referenced:
The never ending construction of Bengaluru – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV7s_aks_4A
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This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends and family who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
Want to attend The Ken’s next event—How AI is Breaking and Remaking the Way Products are Built?
🎟️ Join us in person or on the livestream—tickets here
Welcome to the year-end special edition of Two by Two.
We’ve released 22 episodes of Two by Two since our inaugural edition in July.
We’ve covered an incredible breadth of counterintuitive topics framed as, well, two by twos.
Would Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe became Flipkart? Did Delhi prick Bengaluru’s bubble? Is the golden era of the software engineer over? Why is health insurance broken? How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? Why is Zepto behaving like a gold medallist? Can venture capitalists do no wrong? Dmart versus the challengers at the gates. AI and the impending disruption of Indian SaaS.
We’ve had incredible fun exploring these ideas with a bunch of really sharp, experienced and opinionated guests.
Finding guests who don’t hesitate to speak their minds and state unpopular truths has been one of the hardest things. Far, far tougher than finding interesting topics. We owe all our guests a huge thanks for trusting us. Far too many professionals and leaders prefer to stick to rehearsed and predictable talking points in public these days.
We’d started Two by Two with the ambition to operate at the intersection of curiosity and synthesis. Each week, we said we’d spot the hidden connections and unasked questions. We’d identify the cast of players and their motivations.
We’d bring in incredible people to discuss these with. We’d try to answer simple yet fundamental questions like, what is going on, why is it happening, who gains and who loses, and where is all of this leading to?
By always asking questions. Always connecting the dots. Always being unfiltered and uninhibited.
We wanted Two by Two to be ‘your personal investigative brain’.
In 2025 we hope to make Two by Two even more interesting and unpredictable. Yes, at its core it will still be a weekly podcast. But I’m excited at the possibility of doing so much more by involving our subscribers, listeners and readers in these endeavours.
We want to make Two by Two ‘our collective investigative brain’.
And hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan will continue to do so with a new episode every Thursday.
To listen to all episodes of Two by Two, consider subscribing to The Ken’s Premium plan, which in addition to the podcast, will also get you access to our long-form stories, Premium newsletters and visual stories.
If you just want access to Two by Two, you can do that as well on Apple Podcasts with a paid subscription.
Two by Two is also a free weekly newsletter published every Friday. You can sign up for it here.
Listen to all Two by Two episodes here:
1. Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/will-flipkart-become-phonepe-before-phonepe-becomes-flipkart/
2. Why has all the excitement and disruption gone out of startups? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-has-all-the-excitement-and-disruption-gone-out-of-startups/
3. Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/
4. Delhi pricked the Bengaluru bubble -
https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/delhi-pricked-the-bangalore-bubble/
5. Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/
6. Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-the-golden-era-of-the-software-engineer-over/
7. Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/
8. Private coaching is eating away at schooling - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/private-coaching-is-eating-away-at-schooling/
9. Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/
10. Health insurance in India is ripe for disruption - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/health-insurance-is-ripe-for-disruption/
11. Netflix and its last growth market - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/netflixs-last-growth-market/
12. Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/
13. Do we even need Product Managers? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/
14. How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/
15. The relentless rise of the government as a competitor - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/the-relentless-rise-of-the-government-as-a-competitor/
16. What does the future hold for Ola Electric? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/what-does-ola-electrics-future-hold/
17. Can venture capitalists do no wrong? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-venture-capitalists-do-no-wrong/
18. Dmart versus the challengers at the gate - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/
19. Marketing is eating itself from the inside - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/marketing-is-eating-i...
Happy Deepavali, dear listeners!
On account of Deepavali, the Two by Two team is also taking a small break. But don't worry; we'll be back with our regular programming next week.
Until then, you can always listen to past episodes of Two by Two that you haven't gotten around to yet. If you're a Premium subscriber listening to this on The Ken’s mobile app or on Apple podcasts, you can just scroll down and listen to any of our episodes in their full, unedited form. On the other hand, if you aren’t a premium subscriber yet, you can listen to one of our older episodes which we’ve unlocked for you.
In fact, in the latest unlocked episode, we argue, debate, and discuss what Netflix needs to do to win in its last growth market — India.
Netflix's last growth market. (Full republished episode for free users available on Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube)
By the way, if you’re in the mood for something other than two-by-twos and business models, why don’t you head over to Daybreak, The Ken’s daily podcast?
Just last week, our colleagues Snigdha and Rahel did an amazing episode where they spoke to multiple people to understand why women freeze their eggs.
Successful women are freezing their eggs. And that's on men. (Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube Music)
If you have suggestions for potential future episodes, we’re all ears. We’re also all ears if you have recommendations for interesting guests we can invite to the show—guests who know their stuff and aren’t afraid to speak their minds, even if it goes against conventional wisdom. Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
