In this episode, Kevin Sutherland sits down with Elliot Moss, Chief Brand Officer at Mishcon de Reya, to discuss the often-misunderstood concept of "brand" within professional services and B2B marketing.

Elliot argues that “brand” is not a luxury or a logo, but rather the summation of every interaction and service delivered by a business. He emphasises that for service-led organisations, the brand is inextricably linked to the behaviours and culture across the business - and how those translate into client experience.

"If you call something 'brand,' you are immediately putting it into a marketing box, and a lot of people will immediately switch off." 

"If you don’t connect brand articulation to actual behaviours, you might as well not bother." 

We cover:

• Why "brand" in professional services is fundamentally about the quality of the service delivered, not marketing collateral
• How a Chief Brand Officer's role extends beyond traditional marketing to encompass client retention, acquisition, intermediary relationships, and even product development
• The challenges of building a cohesive brand across a diverse firm with multiple practice areas and different audiences
• The importance of influence and "over-communication" in embedding brand values and consistent client service across an organisation
• How effectively managing client retention, acquisition, intermediary relationships, and product development, alongside traditional marketing, are all essential "buckets" that collectively drive business growth
• Elliot's perspective on how internal behaviors, from timely responses to attention to detail, directly contribute to the external perception of a brand
• How Elliot’s Jazz Shapers show on Jazz FM contributes to the Mishcon de Reya brand, demonstrating the firm's association with innovation and business success with a format that allows for deeper engagement with clients, potential clients and influential voices.

About our guest: Elliot Moss is Partner and Chief Brand Officer at Mishcon de Reya. With a background in advertising, including roles at Leo Burnett and Leagas Delaney, Elliot has extensive experience in brand strategy. He also hosts the "Jazz Shapers" program on JazzFM where he interviews business founders who, like the shapers of jazz soul and blues have defied convention, broken the mould and gone on to achieve great success.

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Is marketing having an identity crisis? In this episode, Kevin sits down with Dom Hawes, CEO of agency group Selbey Anderson, to ask why so much B2B marketing has become narrowly focused on content and comms, at the expense of strategy, pricing, product, and customer value. Dom argues that we’ve reduced a business-critical discipline to “T-shirts, mugs, and websites” - and it’s time to fix it.

From the untapped power of pricing to the rise of “untitled marketers,” and the problem with even calling it ‘B2B…’ this episode is a thought-provoking take on what business marketing really is, and what we all should be doing instead of ‘looking in the wrong direction…”

We cover:

• Why marketing needs to reclaim its role as a strategic business driver - “There's a generation of ‘untitled marketers’ - they’re in operations, customer success, even product - but they’re doing more real marketing than the marketing department.”
• How brands lose value when marketing is reduced to comms - “If your marketing function isn’t touching price, product, or distribution, you’re not doing marketing.”
• What marketers can learn from DevOps and why AI will reshape agencies - “AI won’t kill agencies, but the ones that can’t shift from outputs to outcomes will struggle.”
• Why being “more human” is too lazy a goal.
• The trouble with orthodoxies like 95/5, and how they mislead - “The 95/5 model is misused. It's become another stick to hit marketers with instead of helping them think.”
• How to stop trying to “do more” and start focusing on impact - “A great marketer starts with three questions: Who is the customer? What do they want? And how do I create more value than the next guy?”
• The ‘pile-on’ culture on LinkedIn, and why it undermines the profession - “People pile in to attack ideas they don’t like. That’s not thought leadership, it’s thought policing.”
• Why ROI is the wrong conversation, and what to measure instead.

About our guest:

Dom Hawes is Group CEO at Selbey Anderson, a marketing group comprising five specialist agencies. A long-time champion for marketing as a strategic business discipline, he also hosts the Unicorny podcast. Dom is a sharp thinker with strong opinions — on brand, growth, AI, and the future of the agency model — and in this episode, he shares them with honesty and impact.

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Building a B2B community sounds great in theory but how do you make one that actually delivers value? In this episode, Kevin talks to Pip Jamieson, founder of community platform The Dots, about what it really takes to build and scale communities that work. From understanding your ideal customer to choosing the right tech, Pip shares practical advice for brands and startups alike.

You’ll hear why community is more than just an extension of content strategy, why social media managers aren’t community leads, and how “super fans” can be a driver of growth.

We cover:

• What separates real communities from audiences or databases
• The case for buying or licensing over building tech
• How startups can use “super fan” groups to scale
• What metrics to track (spoiler: not just likes…) and how branded communities powered by The Dots achieve 50% active engagement rates, compared to single-digit figures typical in social media
• Why ‘lurkers’ matter - and what makes a great curator
• The biggest mistake brands make when hiring for community
• Pip’s honest advice for aspiring tech founders
• How AI is reshaping her own business - and where the biggest gaps still lie

About our guest:

Pip Jamieson is the founder and CEO of The Dots - a private community platform used by brands like Apple, Soho House, and Frieze. A longtime advocate for creative industries and inclusive tech, Pip shares her insights from launching and scaling digital products in both the UK and Australia.

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In this episode, we’re joined by Matthew Magee, Communications and Content Director at Pinsent Masons, which has been the most visited legal firm website in the world, every month, for the past 20 years. Drawing on his background as a journalist and his experience leading one of the most respected content operations in professional services, Matthew shares how the firm’s flagship platform, Out-Law, delivers true value to clients and prospects by getting the expertise and knowledge inside the firm out into the market, and why quality always wins out over quantity.

Matthew explains why so much content marketing often fails to deliver for the audience in B2B, how to create structures that elevate rather than dilute expertise, and what makes Out-Law a different beast to the sea of “thought leadership” swamping inboxes. He also shares his admiration for content powerhouses like EY and offers advice to aspiring content professionals.

Talking Points:

• Why content should be led by content people -  “If you want content done properly, get content people to do it — and give them the backing to challenge the status quo”
• The importance of structure, process, and editorial confidence in surfacing firm-wide expertise
• How Out-Law has built a trusted audience by behaving more like a newsroom than a marketing team
• Why internal power structures often shape external content (and how to break that pattern)
• Why AI-content 'gumming up' the channels might be good for firms like Pinsent Masons
• What professional services firms can learn from the consistency and clarity of the Big Four
• Why early-career content people still benefit from newsroom rigour - even as those environments disappear
• The problem with data: how non-experts can learn to ask better questions about content performance
• And, adding to our growing collection of marketing analogies, meet Shrödingers content marketing…

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law 

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In this episode of The Problem with B2B Marketing, Kevin Sutherland is joined by Michelle Booth, former head of marketing strategy & innovation at NatWest, and former head of Growth & innovation at Lloyds, now on Sabbatical studying performance at Central St Martins to talk about the challenge of making real change happen inside organisations.

Episode Summary

Change may be constant, but making it happen is another matter. Whether it’s digital transformation, cultural shifts, or just evolving the processes that make the business work, many organisations struggle to turn ambitions into real action, or adapt effectively to changing markets.

Michelle and Kevin discuss the realities of organisational change, why so many initiatives stall, and what makes the difference between a plan that gathers dust and one that actually delivers results. 

Key Talking Points

• The gap between strategy and execution - why change often gets stuck before it starts
• How internal culture and behaviours shape whether change succeeds or fails
• The risk of overcomplicating change with frameworks and methodologies
• Why people, not just processes, should be at the heart of any change initiative
• The balance between stability and adaptation - how to evolve without constant disruption
• The myth of agility - why moving fast doesn’t always mean making progress
• What B2B marketing’s brand vs. performance debate can teach us about long-term vs. short-term change
• Why small, targeted interventions often work better than large-scale change programs
• The power of asking the right questions - and why many organisations avoid the difficult ones
• How external consultants can be useful - but why they’re sometimes brought in just to confirm what leadership already thinks
• The tension between efficiency and growth - and why cutting costs isn’t the same as making progress

Change is inevitable, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy. So how do B2B businesses move from talking about change to actually making it happen? Tune in for a conversation about what works, what doesn’t, and why real change is often more subtle than it seems.

Links and further reading on the topics discussed:

On dealing with uncertainty: Brian Klass: Fluke - Chance, Chaos, and Why Everything We Do Matters On dealing with Uncertainty 

Dr Amy Edmondson “Right Kind of Wrong: The science of failing well”

Andre Spicer - Power and Pitfalls of Functional stupidity 

Geoffrey Moore Zone to Win (and Crossing the Chasm)

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In this episode of The Problem with B2B Marketing, Kevin Sutherland is joined by Joel Harrison of B2BMarketing.net and Katy Howell of Immediate Future to discuss the problem with influencer marketing.

As the B2B creator economy gains momentum, brands are rethinking how they connect with professional audiences. With LinkedIn becoming more conversational, the traditional “stuffy” approach to thought leadership is shifting toward a more human, expert-driven model. But what does this mean for B2B brand building and marketing comms?

Trust in business communications is at an all-time low, and the explosion of AI-generated content isn’t helping. So, where does that leave B2B brands looking to build credibility? In this episode we explore the evolution of B2B influencer marketing, why it’s not actually new, and how brands can leverage trusted voices to cut through the noise.

Key Talking Points

• The concept of influencer marketing has always existed in B2B, from PR editorial to thought leadership
• The challenges of working with individual influencers versus traditional media platforms
• How B2B media publications are adapting to the influencer era 
• The role of subject matter experts within organisations and how businesses can nurture and empower them 
• The blurred lines between thought leaders, internal influencers, and those who build their personal brands outside their employer’s umbrella
• Why niche expertise matters more than broad industry influence when selecting collaborators
• The growing importance of long-term collaboration over transactional relationships in B2B influence strategies
• The tricky topic of risk: How can brands ensure they partner with the right influencers? What does due diligence look like?
• Why AI-generated content is making thought leadership harder, not easier—and how brands can stand out with original, evidence-backed insights
• How a Fujitsu influencer-led campaign generated an attributed pipeline of £38M
• And perhaps most crucially, can marketers prove the ROI of B2B influencer campaigns?

With LinkedIn doubling down on the creator economy and formal influencer platforms emerging in the B2B space, the question is no longer whether influencer marketing is relevant—it’s how brands can make it work effectively.

Tune in to hear our take on where B2B influencer marketing is headed and what smart CMOs should be doing to stay ahead.

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In this episode of The Problem with B2B Marketing, Kevin Sutherland is joined by Gemma Greaves, co-founder of Nurture & Partners, to tackle an issue many find uncomfortable: networking. Gemma shares her candid perspective on why traditional networking methods often fail, how to overcome the awkwardness, and why reframing it as “not working” can unlock more meaningful connections.

Drawing from her personal experiences and professional insights, Gemma challenges the stereotypes around networking and explains how focusing on authenticity, generosity, and curiosity can lead to stronger, more impactful relationships in business.

Key Talking Points:

Why the Word “Networking” Needs a Rebrand:

• Gemma explains her dislike for the term “networking” and its connotations of transactional, insincere interactions
• Traditional tactics like exchanging business cards or pitching immediately are not only ineffective but often damaging to long-term relationships

Reframing Networking as “Not Working”:

• Approaching events with the mindset of meeting interesting people rather than seeking immediate outcomes
• Building genuine connections starts with being yourself and fostering a welcoming environment for others

The Importance of First Impressions:

• How event organisers can set the tone for meaningful interactions from the moment someone walks into a room
• Why “first impressions are made fast, and they last.”

Three Pillars of Effective Connection Building:

• Authenticity: “Be you, so others can be them”
• Generosity: Focus on what you can give, rather than what you can gain
• Curiosity: Ask thoughtful questions to deepen your understanding of others

Knowing yourself

• How self-awareness and embracing your vulnerabilities can lead to more genuine connections.
• Using the "two pots" analogy (evidence vs. thoughts/feelings)

The responsibility of leadership

• Role-modelling vulnerability and authenticity
• Why fun and joy in the workplace are essential

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Mat Morrison, co-founder of Digital Whiskey, media agency for the professional services sector, joins us to discuss the challenges of breaking free from entrenched B2B marketing orthodoxies. In this episode, Mat shares his insights on why traditional approaches to B2B marketing—rooted in performance metrics and short-term gains—are holding companies back from true growth. He tackles the persistent struggle to balance brand building with lead generation and offers fresh perspectives on how businesses can rethink their strategies to drive long-term success.

Key talking points:

• The Problem with Performance Overload: Exploring the common over-investment in lead generation and performance marketing at the expense of brand building, and why this short-sighted focus hinders growth.
• The Brand Advertising Leap of Faith: Why it's so difficult for businesses to invest in brand advertising when it's hard to see immediate returns—and how to navigate that challenge.
• The 95% Rule: Discussing the reality that 95% of your target audience isn’t ready to buy at any given moment and the dangers of over-targeting the small percentage that is.
• Rethinking Attribution Models: How current attribution methods, like Google's, often skew our understanding of what’s truly driving long-term business growth—and what we can do about it.
• If You Build It, They Won’t Just Come: The myth of content marketing as a 'build and they will come' strategy, and why today’s market demands more than just publishing reports or creating content hubs.
• The C-Suite Obsession: Why too many B2B marketing strategies focus solely on the C-suite and overlook the wider decision-making unit, and the importance of reaching all influencers in the buying process.
• Authority Content as a Starting Point: How B2B brands can leverage in-depth content like reports and thought leadership pieces, not as end goals, but as catalysts for broader, sustained marketing efforts.
• The HubSpot Effect: A look at how HubSpot’s success in content marketing has influenced B2B strategies and why it’s time to rethink the rigid content-first approach.

This episode is packed with actionable insights for marketers looking to break free from outdated practices and embrace more effective, holistic strategies for long-term brand growth.

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Emma Clarke, founder of community-building consultancy CUSP, explores the challenges of building effective B2B communities. Drawing on her experience working with brands like Soho House, Soho Works and 180 Studios, Emma explains why community building is essential for fostering authentic customer connections, but also outlines why many B2B brands struggle to implement it. She discusses the shift from top-down marketing to customer-led engagement, and offers strategies for overcoming internal resistance, maintaining engagement, and measuring success.

Key talking points:

The Shift to Authenticity: People crave genuine connections, especially post-COVID, and B2B communities can meet this need.

Top-Down vs. Community-Led: The outdated model of brand-controlled messaging versus the benefits of empowering customers to connect with each other.

Why community strategy often isn’t prioritised in B2B marketing and how to make the business case for it.

The difficulty of sustaining customer participation, and how to build communities that offer real value without feeling like an obligation.

The importance of internal champions and a dedicated community lead to drive engagement and sustain momentum.

How to assess the success of a community, and why “fuzzy” metrics like testimonials matter.

Links and references:

Emma Clarke

Soho Works: Community-driven workspaces 

Crafty Counsel: An example of a successful UK-based B2B community

Oliver Wyman Forum: Another firm that excels in community-building for business leaders

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Nick Andrews, Partner and Head of Commercial Marketing at Knight Frank, delves into what he calls the "B2B Blandemic"—a term borrowed from designer Thomas Heatherwick to describe the wave of uninspired, forgettable content in B2B marketing. 

Drawing from his experience, Nick breaks down why so much B2B messaging fails to resonate and outlines actionable strategies to stand out without resorting to gimmicks. He also explores the implications of over-investing in performance marketing at the expense of brand building, and the importance of balancing short-term gains with long-term value creation.

Key talking points:

• The B2B Blandemic: The overwhelming prevalence of generic, forgettable content in B2B spaces and the need to move beyond this trend.
• Standing Out Without the 'Jazz Hands': Why B2B brands struggle to differentiate and how to create authentic, memorable messaging.
• The Real Cost of Blandness: How dull content results in significantly higher media spend to achieve the same level of cut-through as more creative, engaging campaigns.
• The 80% Engagement Problem: A staggering 80% of B2B content fails to engage, with ads seeing a similarly high rate of neutral responses.
• Performance Marketing vs. Brand Building: The risk of over-investing in performance marketing and neglecting brand-building efforts, and why this imbalance can lead to long-term consequences.
• The 95/5 Rule: Why 95% of your target audience isn’t ready to buy and the dangers of focusing exclusively on the small percentage that is.
• Customer Orientation: The importance of shifting from a product- or sales-oriented mindset to one that prioritises customer needs and market insights

Knight Frank

Peter Weinber and John Lombardo - The Principles of B2B Marketing 

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Lucy Ferguson, Content and AI Marketer, and former Head of B2B Content at Google, discusses the problem with Thought Leadership. Focusing on the common mistakes she has seen over the course of her career across media owner, agency and platform roles, we discuss how and why B2B brands are turning clients and potential customers off with content that's more 'inside-out' than outside in. Lucy shares insights on how to develop the content your customer needs and the huge ROI potential from taking distribution seriously, including a practical view on how AI can make this better (or worse) depending on the approach you choose. 

Key talking points:

• How Google’s lens of ‘Helpfulness’ shapes the content the business creates and “helps the user to do their job better”
• How to plan thought leadership content effectively when 95% of your audience isn’t ready to buy
• The importance of moving on from a campaign / “one and done’ mindset to creatie once, using everywhere.
• The case for long term investment in brand platforms and owned IP to grow ‘mental availability’

Internal vs. External Influencers: Deciding who to partner with externally and how to “help the voices inside the organisation become more vocal."

Authenticity Matters: The importance of asking "Is this the best use of your brilliance?" and finding ways to channel what individuals are genuinely passionate and knowledgeable about for creating effective expert content

Generative AI in Content Marketing: Avoiding the risk of anodyne content: "The problem... is using AI in a way that just churns anodyne content... it wasn't written with love… and anything that moves us away from really understanding our audience, really helping people, and sharing new knowledge is going to be a problem." But harnessing the possibilities; "use it as a hypothesis as a test, alongside existing content and compare how it works”

Links and references:

• Google Firestarters
• Gartner on the Rise of Buying Committees
• 2024 Edelman-Linkedin Thought Leadership Impact Report

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Welcome to the very first episode of The Problem with B2B Marketing! We talked to Matthew Gale, Director of Brand & Creative Content at Deloitte and architect of The Green Room, one of the most successful podcasts from a brand, about the problem with B2B podcasts...

From getting started and working out exactly who you are for, to working hard to earn your audiences’ time and attention, what makes for effective distribution and how you define the ROI for the business, Matt shares his experience, the good and the bad, common pitfalls, and how to deal with them.

Key talking points:

• Matt didn’t set out to make a podcast, but having discovered that Deloitte’s insight reports were amongst the lowest performing content, they looked for other formats as a way to share expertise and cut through.
• The podcast format has inspired a new approach; they don’t simply talk about Deloitte’s new automation report but instead explore topics like “What will be the last job on Earth?”
• Unexpected benefits: The Green Room format, topics and talent have all helped build a greater understanding of the business and culture at Deloitte, benefitting the employer brand. 
• Hear about Deloitte’s ‘7 Principles’ for creating great content, and how they act as ‘guidelines, not rules; help experts across the business to create content for niche audiences that ‘respects busy with excellence,’ and the benefits of ‘debunking best practice.’ 

Links and references:

• The Green Room podcast from Deloitte
• The Green Room special series / Olympic tie-in - The Power of First
• Every Other Friday newsletter from Deloitte

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