In this episode of The Development Drum, Ian reflects on his career and his passion for creating lasting legacies through his projects. He explains how staying connected through UDIA Queensland helps his team stay informed and how his term as State President drove him to constantly push for better outcomes. Ian also offers his perspective on the housing crisis, unpacking the structural challenges behind it and why a more balanced, collaborative approach between industry and government is needed now more than ever. It’s an insightful conversation with someone who approaches complex problem-solving with the same focus and passion he brings to a weekend of watching sport!
Guest Bio: Ian has over 30 years’ experience in the development industry, having worked with several major corporate developers across Queensland and South Australia. Before moving into development, he spent nearly a decade as a consulting engineer, delivering services to the property sector.
A long-standing member of UDIA, Ian has been actively involved in both the Queensland and South Australian divisions. He served on the UDIA Queensland Board for several years, including terms as Vice President, President, and Immediate Past President.
Following more than a decade with Lendlease in Queensland, Ian recently joined Springfield City Group as Executive General Manager – Residential, where he continues to help shape the growth of one of the nation’s most significant masterplanned communities.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the CEO of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Andrew shares the story that took him from the legal world to a leadership role at nbn, reflecting on what he loved (and misses) about being a lawyer and how it ultimately led him to where he is today. He offers fascinating insight into the one thing most new home buyers don’t know — and why it keeps him up at night. Andrew also speaks to the value of supporting the property development industry, the importance of nbn’s connection with UDIA Queensland, and how he fosters a strong, positive team culture. From leadership and martial arts to life as a dad, it’s a thoughtful conversation packed with practical takeaways and personal reflection.
Guest Bio: Andrew Walsh is the Executive General Manager, New Developments at nbn. He leads a national team that works closely with property developers to bring the nbn network to new lots, buildings, and communities, ensuring that future residents are well-connected and ready to make the most of what the network has to offer.
Prior to this role, Andrew led nbn’s Wholesale Supply team, where he was responsible for negotiating terms of supply with more than 150 retail service providers across the country.
Before joining nbn, Andrew built a successful career as a leading lawyer in the telecommunications, media, and technology sectors, advising clients across Australia, the Asia-Pacific, and the Middle East.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the CEO of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Marina shares the journey behind her enduring passion for the industry, from early lessons and influential mentors to the values that guide her today. She talks about building and maintaining a brand and legacy with clarity of purpose, her collaborative leadership style, and why genuine connection with her team, peers, and the broader industry remains at the heart of everything she does. It’s an honest, insightful conversation with a leader who brings heart, humility, and purpose to her work.
Guest Bio: Marina is a highly respected industry leader with a career spanning property development, government, and the not-for-profit sector. As CEO of Mosaic, she is responsible for driving corporate strategy and operational excellence. Previously, as Chief Operating Officer, she played a pivotal role in shaping the company’s operational framework and overseeing its continued growth.
Before joining Mosaic, Marina served as CEO of the UDIA Queensland, where she led policy development, industry reform, and advocacy efforts — earning Life Membership in 2019 for her contributions. Earlier in her career, as CEO of Youngcare, she was instrumental in pioneering specialist housing solutions, setting new benchmarks for accessibility and independent living.
Marina has also held senior executive roles at Brisbane Marketing and served as Chief of Staff to the Lord Mayor of Brisbane. She has contributed to several boards, including South Bank Corporation and SEQ Water, bringing a wealth of strategic insight to every role.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the CEO of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Kirsty sits down with Damian Winterburn to explore his journey into the property development world, inspired from a young age by his grandfather’s legacy. Damian shares candid insights into the builder-developer business model, the lessons he’s learned, and the advice he’d pass on. He also reflects on the projects he’s most proud of — particularly those that deliver housing for those who need it most. With a down-to-earth perspective, Damian offers a glimpse into his day-to-day life and what lies ahead as he continues to shape places with purpose.
Guest Bio: Damian Winterburn is the Managing Director of Boulder Capital, a capital partner providing debt and equity investments to developers across South East Queensland. Over the past eight years, Damian has worked closely with numerous developers, offering not only capital but also strategic advice to help deliver more than 50 highly profitable projects in the region.
Alongside his family, Damian is also involved with Marquee Development Partners, an award-winning residential development company specialising in premium apartment buildings and land subdivisions throughout SEQ. This family business has a strong track record, having delivered over 3,000 dwellings in Queensland over the past 30 years.
With more than 25 years’ experience in property and finance across Australia and the USA, Damian has built and led businesses spanning development, construction, civil engineering, sales, and finance. His passion for property and business is evident throughout his diverse career.
Damian holds a degree in Property Economics from QUT, is a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, and actively participates in several property industry committees. He also has a long history of advising key government bodies and the Reserve Bank of Australia.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the Chief Executive Officer of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Roger Collins-Woolcock shares stories from a career that’s seen it all — from building an office from the ground up in Hervey Bay back in 1994, to backing himself years later and launching a boutique consultancy. He reflects on the lessons learned along the way, his passion for helping clients grow, and the value of smart succession planning and strategy. With his signature storytelling style, Roger also draws compelling parallels between football and business, offering memorable takeaways for navigating your professional journey.
Guest Bio: Roger is a civil engineer with over 35 years of experience in the private sector professional services industry. In 2015, he established his own consultancy, providing business strategy, development, training, operational, and merger & acquisitions advice to small and medium-sized firms. He currently sits on the boards of three organisations.
Roger has been actively involved with the UDIA for more than 25 years. He founded the Central Coast Chapter in NSW in 2001, served as NSW President from 2002 to 2004, and was a member of the National Council. With support from consulting firm Harrison Grierson, he helped establish the Urban Development Institute of New Zealand (UDINZ) in 2017.
Roger has also contributed as a judge for UDIA’s Awards programs at both state and national levels, and has supported professional development programs across NSW. In recognition of his contributions, he was awarded Life Membership of UDIA NSW in 2009.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the Chief Executive Officer of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Marty offers a rare glimpse into the high-stakes world of property finance — sharing the complexity of his role, the extraordinary highs and lows, and what it’s like working alongside some of the biggest companies in the country. With a deep passion for the industry, he reflects on the importance of mentoring the next generation and the value of strong professional relationships. Marty also takes us through some defining moments in his career, from the early market crash of 1992 to navigating the uncertainty of COVID, while revealing his love of tennis and the unexpected career path he might’ve pursued if banking hadn’t called!
Guest Bio: Marty is the National General Manager of Property Finance at Westpac Group, which includes the St.George, Westpac, BankSA, and Bank of Melbourne brands. His team supports over 2,600 clients across all Australian market sectors and regions, providing both development and investment finance.
A qualified Chartered Accountant with an MBA, Marty has 33 years of experience in property finance across Australia and the UK. Before joining Westpac Group in 2016, he held several senior national and international roles, including 17 years at NAB and time with Lloyds Banking Group.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the Chief Executive Officer of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Claire O'Rourke takes us through her career journey — from the lecture halls of university to climbing the corporate ladder, to now leading her own company. She reflects on the pivotal role of professional mentorship in shaping her path and how her involvement with UDIA Queensland fuels her sense of purpose. Claire also shares a behind-the-scenes look at her current project, diving into the challenges of land efficiency, the push to innovate in small lot housing, and the importance of community engagement in delivering successful outcomes.
Guest Bio: Claire is a property developer with over 20 years of experience delivering residential and mixed-use projects across Brisbane, Perth, and London, ranging from $20 million to $700 million. She co-founded a successful property consultancy in 2018 and was named one of Queensland’s Top 20 Business Entrepreneurs in 2021. In 2023, she launched Cohere Projects, a residential development company focused on sustainability, design, and community benefit. Claire is also a UDIA Queensland Board Member and a passionate advocate for the property sector.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the Chief Executive Officer of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
Episode Summary: In this episode of The Development Drum, Adam McVie opens up about his journey through a long and rewarding career at Dennis Family Corporation. He shares the lessons learned along the way, the realities developers are navigating in today’s landscape, and what’s kept him engaged in both the industry and with the Institute. From proud project milestones to finding balance between work and family life, Adam offers a thoughtful and down-to-earth perspective on the highs and hurdles of the development world.
Guest Bio: Adam is the Queensland State Manager at Dennis Family Corporation and has served as a Director on the UDIA Queensland Board since 2020. Born in Brisbane and raised in Port Moresby, he returned to Brisbane for schooling before completing tertiary qualifications in engineering. After a stint in the UK, Adam joined Dennis Family Corporation in 2001 as a Project Manager and was appointed State Manager in 2018.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the Chief Executive Officer of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of The Development Drum, Kirsty speaks with Col Dutton — UDIA National President and General Manager at Stockland. Col shares his journey into the property industry, from development assessments in local councils to leading Stockland’s Gold Coast team and embracing new challenges on the West Coast. He discusses the importance of understanding the customer, matching product to community needs, and his motivations for working with a peak industry body. Plus, he offers candid insights into his life, including his passion for fitness and setting personal goals.
Guest Bio: Col brings more than two decades of experience in the property industry to his role as the Western Australian Lead for Stockland, Australia’s largest residential developer. He leads a multidisciplinary team of over 60 professionals, responsible for delivering a pipeline of more than 12,000 diverse and affordable new homes across Perth’s key growth corridors. Col is also driving Stockland’s focus on mixed-use town centres and medium-density developments in both greenfield and infill locations across the city.
Prior to his current role, Col held senior positions with Stockland in Queensland, as well as in local government. A recognised industry leader, he was appointed UDIA National President in 2023, having previously served as State President of UDIA Western Australia and Branch President of the UDIA Queensland Gold Coast branch.
About Your Host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the Chief Executive Officer of UDIA Queensland, a role she has held since 2018. She brings extensive experience in policy, stakeholder engagement, and research, and has played a key role in shaping state and local government policy. Kirsty is passionate about driving positive change in the development industry to create greener, smarter, and more resilient communities.
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Produced By: The Podcast Boss
Official Podcast of UDIA Queensland
In this episode of the Development Drum, Glen Maidment talks about the journey of starting his business, Maidment Group, its expansion, and the strategic decision to incorporate various in-house services, such as the recent inclusion of multi-unit residential offerings. He discusses the hurdles encountered, particularly in the distinctive regional market of Townsville, and his participation in the Made for People initiative.
Links from this episode: https://www.maidment.com.au/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Glen: Glen Maidment is the Managing Director and founder of Townsville-based property development company, Maidment Group.
Having been in operation for over 23 years, Maidment Group is one of the largest fully integrated, privately-owned, property developers in North Queensland. The group’s rapidly growing and diverse portfolio covers residential sub-division, new home construction, medium-density residential development, commercial landscaping, real estate, mortgage brokering services, and civil construction.
Glen has a background as a qualified diesel fitter and brings a unique perspective to the property development industry, with a philosophy for success based on honesty and hard work. He firmly believes in being personally involved in each and every project delivered by his team and oversees a development pipeline in excess of one billion with a footprint which extends from Townsville to the Sunshine Coast.
As a committee member of the Institute’s Townsville Branch, Glen ensures the interests of the development industry in the North are heard and takes an active role helping shape the long-term growth of the region.
When not in the office, Glen is an avid hockey player and a keen fisherman. He enjoys spending time with his wife Annette, who is also the Chief Financial Officer of Maidment Group, and his two daughters, Jorja and Erin.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Mike Loney discusses the complexities of navigating the property development landscape amidst a housing crisis, providing insights into the challenges they’ve faced while also offering his perspective on whether housing affordability is achievable. He goes on to tell the story of how he got into this field of work, sheds light on his current day-to-day activities, and reveals the one passion that keeps him energised.
Links from this episode: https://www.ausbuild.com.au/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Michael: Michael Loney is a Joint Managing Director at Ausbuild and is mutually responsible for the strategic direction of Ausbuild’s large development portfolio, the company’s day-to-day operations, and its future direction.
Michael’s strengths are derived from a long career in cost management and project feasibility studies where he developed practical working knowledge of the mechanics of property development including the art of negotiation with industry, Government, and vendors.
Mike enjoys the enviable lifestyle offered by our beautiful neck of the woods. His main activities outside of work are focused on spending time with his two children, adventuring in Moreton Bay, and heading up the east coast for an occasional kid-free long lunch with his wife.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Tammy Berghofer shares her journey from starting a marketing degree in university, to now working as a legal advisor to the real estate sector as an award-winning Partner at MinterEllison Lawyers. Delve into the intricacies of the regulatory landscape and collaborative efforts with Government, and gain insights into the complexities of an aging population, ensuring that seniors have access to suitable, affordable housing in their preferred locations. Tammy also provides advice for early-career professionals and shares her focus areas for the year.
Links from this episode: https://www.minterellison.com/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Tammy: Tammy Berghofer is a Partner at MinterEllison Lawyers and has been a legal advisor to the real estate sector for more than 18 years. While she has a wealth of experience in all things real estate, she has a particular interest in seniors’ living and regulation. She has built a successful national practice in the area, being recognised over the past two years by Doyle's as a Leading Health and Aged Care Partner, Recommended Property and Real Estate Partner, and Recommended Leasing Lawyer.
Tammy advises some of Australia's largest retirement village operators, including Aveo and RetireAustralia, on all aspects of the village lifecycle including acquisitions, disposals, redevelopments of strategic sites, and regulatory compliance. Her understanding of the day-to-day challenges of retirement village operations is deep, as she works closely with a large team of lawyers and paralegals who transact more than 4000 retirement village conveyancing matters across the country per year.
Tammy is the Chair of the Institute's Seniors Living and Residential Care Committee and a member of the National Retirement Living Council's Advocacy and Research Sub-Committee. She has a profound commitment to the future of the retirement living sector and generously shares her expertise by regularly presenting at industry events and training forums. She is also passionate about working with young professionals to navigate the challenges of corporate life and in 2022 was a Finalist in the 'Lawyers Weekly Partner of the Year Awards' for 'Mentor of the Year'.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Amanda Yeates discusses her career trajectory, from her roles in State Government and Transport and Main Roads to her current position as CEO at SunCentral. Amanda expresses her enthusiasm for the industry, highlighting the aspects that excite her most, and sharing the challenges she has encountered over the years. She offers insights into the community's acceptance of change, her use of social media, and her view on the importance of professional development.
Links from this episode: https://maroochydore-city.com.au/suncentral
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Amanda: Amanda Yeates is the CEO at SunCentral, and has extensive experience in leadership of major public infrastructure programs.
Prior to her role as CEO with SunCentral, she was the Deputy Director General, Department of Transport and Main Roads where she oversaw the state’s $27 billion transport infrastructure program.
Amanda is a fellow of the Institute of Engineers Australia, a registered professional Engineer, Chair of the Australian Institute of Company Directors Sunshine Coast Committee, and holds Board Director roles with Powerlink and Wishlist (the Sunshine Coast Health Foundation).
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Mark Creevey and Tony Williams, Directors at Ray White Special Projects (QLD), share invaluable insight into market intricacies, supply and demand, and the nature of the industry. Mark and Tony discuss their collaborative approach towards co-directing the business and how they ensure combined goals are achieved. They also share their experiences navigating diverse personalities, fostering these relationships, and achieving long-term success.
Links from this episode: https://www.raywhitespecialprojects.com/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Mark and Tony: Mark is a co-director and owner of Ray White Special Projects (QLD) who specialises in the marketing and sale of residential development sites. In his spare time, Mark keeps active and spends time with his three teenagers.
Tony has been with the Ray White Group for over 30 years and is one of the founding partners of Ray White Special Projects. He has lived in Brisbane all his life and is an avid sports fan following all the football codes particularly rugby union, as well as enjoying golf and tennis.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, David Laner delves into the intricacies of his role, exploring both its challenges and highlights as he navigates projects from inception to completion. David also shares invaluable advice to industry peers and newcomers alike, emphasising the significance of active participation in industry organisations and the guidance offered by mentors.
Links from this episode: https://www.stockland.com.au/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About David: David Laner is the General Manager of Stockland Development in Queensland, and is responsible for numerous residential developments across the state. He has been working at Stockland since 2007 and was also a UDIA Queensland Board member for over ten years. Prior to working with Stockland, David had his own business, and worked in a national consultancy group. The early part of his career was spent with the Lendlease Corporation.
David graduated with an Honours degree in Civil Engineering from QUT in 1997, having moved to Brisbane from his childhood home in Gladstone in Central Queensland.
David loves the Lions, loves the Cowboys, enjoys golf and a bit of running, though cricket is the main game in the Laner household.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Bruce Harper delves into his experiences and the lessons he learned when navigating the challenges inflicted by the Global Financial Crisis and the COVID-19 pandemic. He also shares insight into his approach to managing change, the importance of team culture, and offers his advice on the four key attributes that young professionals in the industry should prioritise.
Links from this episode: https://avid.com.au/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Bruce: Bruce Harper is the Executive General Manager for AVID Property Group. The team he leads develops, markets and sells a portfolio of land developments and spec housing estates across Queensland, ranging from the 5,000 lot master planned Harmony community on the Sunshine Coast to integrated spec housing developments on the Gold Coast.
Over the course of his career, he has been an instigator of many of the innovations in urban development including small lot housing and numerous environmental innovation and urban design initiatives. He holds Planning and Company Director qualifications and has been an active member of industry groups including the UDIA in addition to serving as chairman and member of a range of Government and industry advisory Boards and committees.
For relaxation Bruce paints, mainly portraits, has written a couple of children’s books and recently relearned to play the piano after a 50-year break.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Tess Pickering speaks candidly about what it’s like working in the planning sector, the truth behind public perceptions, and the differences between her role in Queensland opposed to Victoria. She also discusses the difficult balance of juggling a demanding job and spending time with her loved ones.
Links from this episode: https://www.housing.qld.gov.au/
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown
About Tess: Tess Pickering, Deputy Director General of Planning, is an experienced and energetic planner, passionate about delivering placed based planning outcomes that make a real impact – shaping Queenslander’s lives now and for the future.
Tess embraces the big challenges with a focus on collaboration, taking inspiration from working alongside people with the confidence to push boundaries, contribute ideas and come up with solutions together. Particular focus has been on greener and cooler streets, enabling people to live more locally, more affordable homes and engaging with our First Nation peoples better in the planning framework.
Returning home to Queensland after five years in Melbourne working for the Victorian Planning Authority, Tess is committed to plans that promote inclusivity while accommodating growth and embodying our distinctly Queensland lifestyle. Since being back in Queensland, Tess has overseen the delivery of ShapingSEQ 2023. Her attention now turns to leading the delivery of the government’s ambitious planning agenda with key partners and stakeholders – one that includes a statewide regional planning program, and responsibilities under the newly released ‘Homes for Queenslanders’ to ‘build more homes, faster’.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, Jack Hutchinson provides a glimpse into the reality of working within a family business and reflects on the journey he took to get to where he is today. Gain insight into Jack’s perspectives on increasing skilled labour, productivity issues, and current trends in the industry, along with his thoughts on how the organisation differs when it comes to their identity, values and culture.
Links from this episode: https://www.hutchinsonbuilders.com.au/
About Jack: Jack Hutchinson is a qualified quantity surveyor and a licenced builder. He holds an MBA from the London Business School and a Bachelor of Property from Bond University.
Before being appointed as a Director in 2022, Jack worked across various project and operational roles within Hutchinson Builders, as well as within other property, construction, and financial firms in both Australia and the United Kingdom.
In his spare time, Jack writes fiction and has had several pieces published in Australian literary magazines. He is also a happily retired competitive pinball player, having once been ranked 7th in the country.
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In this episode of the Development Drum, David Hansen shares the intricacies of his current role, and the previous experiences and knowledge he has garnered over his career. Hear his perspectives on the relationship between local Government and community, his approach towards stakeholder collaboration, and his insight on managing organisational culture in a large team.
Links from this episode: https://www.logan.qld.gov.au/
About David: David Hansen is the Director of Growth, Economy and Sustainability at City of Logan.
He is a Brisbane-born, Logan-raised town planner who has spent the past 27 years working in planning and economic development roles across all parts of Queensland, in both the private and public sector.
In many ways, his current role as Director of Growth, Economy & Sustainability for City of Logan is an opportunity to reflect on his own upbringing, given his parents aspired to leave Brisbane for the opportunities that only greenfield living could provide at that time.
David is Dad to 3 beautiful boys, a cricket tragic and Liverpool FC supporter, and someone with incredible awareness of any new bakery openings across Greater Brisbane.
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In this episode In the final episode of season three, Kirsty speaks to Leah Lang - who is an award-winning architect for the Queensland Government. With over two decades of experience in the design space, Leah provides fascinating insight on the importance of design in the next stage of its evolution. She also reflects on her career, the housing crisis, and her current and future projects.
About your host: Kirsty Chessher-Brown is the CEO of UDIA Queensland.
About Leah Leah Lang, is an experienced Strategic Design Advisor and award-winning registered architect, Fellow of the Institute of Architects and the current Queensland Government Architect.
She is currently advising Government on Housing, Olympics, Health and planning policy and projects. With over 25 years of experience, Leah’s leadership and expertise is utilised through appointments to multiple design boards, panels and juries. She leverages all these roles to advocate and facilitate high-quality, people and place-responsive design and heritage outcomes for Queensland.
In her spare time (of which she doesn’t have much) she loves going to the beach with her kids, wine, and catching up with friends or motorbike rides through the hinterland with her husband.
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