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We gotta be able to handle hearing people talk about us, even when it's triggering and hard, because it can ultimately show us where the work is. And maybe you can be an expert on soething without having it yourself (like ADHD) but perhaps it requires a sense of curiosity, empathy, or some kind of introspection that recpognizes your lane, your scope, and your own biases? From anthropology and sociology to X-Men and who is Magneto and Charles Xavier, David and Isabelle meander through what it means to be an ally and also set up some solid recent hyperfixations.
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We gotta tolerate hearing people talking about what they think about us, including people who have lots of degrees and expertise, and also know that each person doesn’t have the answers. Maybe it has to do with conversations that people have about us without us ADHDers? Then again there are journalists, who don’t have expertise but who can report on the data they get. David names that there are good and bad journalists, and there is critical thinking. How much about people’s ADHD ‘expertise’ includes interpersonal work and understanding about attachment, relationships, your own identity. Like, if you’re an expert on ADHD and you’re not friends with people who have ADHD outside of your work (if you yourself don’t have it)—something to look at? David names that as therapists, we have this debate about multicultural approaches—do you need to have a white therapist to work with white clients, a Black therapist to work with Black therapists? You need to know your lane and your expertise. David’s own therapist is not an expert in ADHD. And neither is Isabelle’s. They know to ask us questions, can ask “how does this relate to ADHD?” We might be the person with ADHD that helps them better understand that. Allies don’t want to get rid of parts of you, they want to help parts of you. An ally is different than a researcher, Isabelle wants to name that you need to be enough of an ally to a topic and be curious. In undergrad, she studied anthropology and archaeology, and it’s a blend of super specific science and also lots of educated guessing. She remembers learning about participant observation in anthropology, that just by observing a culture or a group you are impacting the group. It’s way more about noticing what your own biases are. David’s own background in sociology, the idea of intersectionality. David didn’t really think about ADHD or neurodiversity as a culture until college. He’s a big comic book fan and he loved the X-Men. They’re trying to hide their mutant powers to not be exploited by the government and the X-Men are trying to help these mutants and take them to saving. Charles Xavier and Magneto were portrayed to be iconic people. Magneto was Malcolm X while Charles Xavier was based on Martin Luther King, Jr. It’s two different portrayals around protecting yourself—do you get violent and active or passive? Maybe the mutants are a great metaphor for neurodiversity as well as the civil rights war—if you have been marginalized you can have empathy toward other people who are marginalized. It’s not so personal, people do things to us that they do to other marginalized groups. It can also signify that we have a culture. It would be if everyone says they have a pile of unfolded clothes that threaten your identity, your pile of mail—-culturally both David and Isabelle are both connected to the plan that they didn’t want to leave it there. When we connect about parts of our culture. Isabelle and David so appreciate this conversation. Isabelle names asynchronous processing—she can’t just off the cuff rattle off her ideas and also needs time to talk it out, externalize, and think about things beyond the initial moment or conversations. How important it is for us to keep having these conversations. Isabelle wonders if David is like Charles Xavier. He wishes he could be Charles Xavier. Isabelle might be Charles Xavier. Because maybe she loves or identifies with Patrick Stewart so much. So maybe David is Magneto—in the comic books they were best friends, and he was like “they’ll never learn, we need to protect our people” whereas as the other is like “don’t give in to our aggressive urges.” David needs to shout out: Dungeon Crawler Carl. Not wearing any pants, the cat jumps out of his house trying to get the cat out of the tree, and Carl can then go on an 18 level dungeon crawl and can save the planet earth. The audio book is a treasure, David is a big fan of role playing games, he consumed all seven books in less than three weeks. Isabelle names why cats get stuck in trees, their claws go the other way so they get stuck—but big cats can go backwards. Isabelle mentions an enneagram book that she really appreciates. She was hooked on Borders and loved it as a kid and would keep trying to have someone explain me to me, and one of those books was on the enneagram (which makes David feel like he went to the bathroom during learning fractions and never picked up on it). And she mispronounced it and would read the book at people. Because tell her she’s neurospicy without telling her she’s neurospicy.

Stephanie Sarkis is an ADHD expert who also has ADHD 

 X-Men and more on Patrick Stewart

The American Psychological Association vote on 'homosexuality' being listed as a diagnosable mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) happened back in the LATE 80's (WHAAAATTTTT? yes).--there is a long history to depathologizing sexual identities, deeply impacted by tons of activism and advocacy. For more, you can see this NIH article on this history.

Dungeon Crawler Carl series

Cats getting stuck on trees because of claw shape -- fascinatingly, going down backwards is a skill some cats can learn. Also, here is this website: Catrescueguy.com. *(you're welcome)*

The amazing enneagram book Isabelle was trying to remember the title of -- The Unfiltered Enneagram by Elizabeth Orr

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Here's a nifty little promo code for those who either delayed gratification or who let this episode run through to the end because they were busy vacuuming.

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Is the 'overdiagnosing' of ADHD, autism, and other neurodevelopmental conditions a 'danger,' and to whom? Isabelle and David continue taking some common myths and misperceptions, questioning who and how we gatekeep 'neurodiversity' (including the idea that maybe there really is no 'neurotypical')--and how one group's fears that these labels harm us cannot negate the fear neurospicy folks have that they will be in trouble, or judged, or stigmatized for being who they are and unmasking. Also using the power of compassion and inviting more conversations, while not jumping to cancelling anyone--because everyone gets to fart in an elevator once or twice.
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Isabelle is coming in hot. She continues to explore her reaction to a podcast episode she listened to recently, Armchair Expert with guest Suzanne O’Sullivan on overdiagnosis, which went from covering seizure disorders to ADHD and autism, especially high-masking autism, real quick.  She is so frustrated that a non-expert on ADHD—someone like O’Sullivan, whose expertise is working with epilepsy and seizure disorders, has now spent so much time talking about ADHD and autism when that is not an area of expertise. David names that he thinks this is an important conversation to have, because we are validating the other perspectives. There is a medical model of disease sets us up to want to oppose or eradicate the ‘disease;’ where things like neurodevelopment conditions like ADHD and autism are not something to be ‘cured’ or ‘fixed.” David makes the comparison, its like a bunch of people sitting and talking about going to Mexico when no one has ever been there—cultural representation. For example, someone has mild amounts of anxiety throughout the day. They understand this anxiety as having ADHD. They use ADHD interventions to help them and they found a community, and it makes sense and they feel better, it works for them. And then someone comes up with a reason to say that person does not have ADHD, that this definition does not apply—why are we being so careful when it comes to gatekeeping diversity, including neurodiversity?  This wonderful person that David met at a training, named Shay, asked: is there anyone that is neurotypical? We could think of the difference between traits and states. And then he thought about personal examples. He doesn’t know if there is something as a neurotypical. Would like it to be less shocking that people have different neurological needs or educational differences if we recognized that there may be no 'one' baseline or group to compare everything to? And how quickly we dismiss difference--like knowing that because David listened to books, the argument that what he did was not 'reading'--but we get back to actual question, which is...what was the task, and did it get done?  Often, talking about the fantasy of how ADHD looks or how its supposed to be, it's more about other people. A lot of people with ADHD believe that if its easy for them, they’re cheating. Because its supposed to be hard. Do most non-ADHD people think that way?  The debates are now that anxiety, bipolar disorder, OCD—these are neurological differences—they are also looking at causal factors to all these conditions that are not chosen. So is the only person who is ‘normal’ the person who has no feelings, reactions, or responses?  Someone who has no big responses to stimuli, someone who is antisocial? Isabelle does fall into the categorizing and black and white thinking, and how its a part of learning, to categorize and generalize. This is not dissimilar to how people talk about race, gender, and about culturally defined parts of experiences because we collectively make them a thing—maybe its myth making and collective storytelling. There is a gravitational pull to the idea of being neurotypical or mentally ‘well’ and then there’s good and bad. Isabelle wonders where the compassion goes? David speaks up—they have compassion. People are scared. People are scared and when we’re scared, we have a reflexive reactions. People have found safety or comfort in the label of ‘normal’ or ‘neurotypical,’ and they see difference as not good, and they’re really trying to, in their mind, help people in their messaging. Terror management theory: when you’re scared, you find a group of people who are like you and you band together to be less scared. So, there are a chunk of people out there who are getting very specific about who is in or out of the group.  David can have a lot of compassion for that fear, that fear about who gets to belong. But he also wants to speak to the neurodivergent person who is doing something you tell them will help—and it hurts them? It’s a real fear we carry. David uses the example of his mom—bless her heart (see the Southern US use of this phrase on many levels below)—who grew up being told the importance of having arch support in shoes, and so when David had flat feet, she had him use these inserts—David is not blaming his mom, she did the best she could—lots of people are told not to touch things, don’t go into the light. Every neurodivergent person has to have the fear “I’m doing this wrong, I’m in trouble, I’m doing something bad!” To little David: you know, you have flat feet, you have more stability around corners—but another voice would say “don’t tell anyone you have flat feet, it’s bad.” He has compassion for the fear people have that want everyone to be the same, to not stand out or be different, and there is also a fear that neurodivergent people sit with every day about whether or not they’re allowed to act the way they act. Isabelle names that the podcasters were saying “oh, these diagnoses are an excuse to then act in ways that are socially awkward.” Ahem. Isabelle describes how this feels like when she describes her inner workings to someone in all the steps she takes when she sits down next to someone, wondering if this is the right physical distance, is she staring at their eyebrows too long, is she pausing appropriately, etc.—and when she unmasks and reveals this, the person considers it a compliment to say “I couldn’t tell.” It’s the idea that someone outside of you knows more about your experience than you do. The way that diagnoses connect to power and gatekeeping for services and Isabelle makes the point that those who are saying “over diagnosis is dangerous”—to whom? On what planet are folks who are neurospicy getting enough of the supports and services and resources and access that they need? The system is already failing most of us. David names: this isn’t cancer, this isn’t people getting chemo erroneously. There is no danger in identification, it’s about getting our needs met. What do we do as a society to neglected people, and the more you know about your needs, the less of a danger being neglected becomes. This is a question of someone who knows a lot about things wandered over into another area and made bold statements without the expertise. Isabelle was extra miffed that she also dismissed the intersections of Autism, ADHD, POTS, hyper mobile Ehlers Danlos, and MCAS and ‘nonexistent’ —so damaging and harmful. These are real things, the interconnectedness of them is being actively researched, just because you are new to the party does not make something false or untrue. As David puts it, in the 70’s or 80’s, the APA took a vote to decide if being gay was good or bad, essentially (“do we keep gayness as a disorder?” Yes folks, this was that recently. GAH.). Now imagine someone was asleep for ten years and missed that memo and is now walking around looking at pride flags wondering “why are th...

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Are ADHD, autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders overdiagnosed? Is it all in our heads? Is self-diagnosis legit? Isabelle and David take some common stigmas and misperceptions to task and explore how labels and identities can help or hurt, how policing stigma when you're not a member of the group being stigmatized (or asking us what we need), and the huge weight our world puts on external, visible behaviors rather than internal pain, frustrations, and strengths.
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Isabelle references a podcast episode she listened to recently, Armchair Expert with guest Suzanne O’Sullivan on overdiagnosis. She brings up the idea of psychosomatic illness, and the example this epilepsy expert uses is that there are a certain percentage of cases of epilepsy that appear very different on brain scans, that appear to be psychologically caused (or psychosomatic). This is one of those confusing, stigmatized concepts—Isabelle would originally think that this means “made up.” But NO. What it means is that people are still experiencing the symptoms, are still suffering from symptoms of seizures, sometimes way worse than those who on EEGs, etc. appear to have ‘epilepsy.’ It is the opposite of ‘in your head,’ it is very real. The same goes for the placebo effect, which is that when they do studies on medications or treatments, they have people do something neutral or take a sugar pill or a pill with no active ingredients. A percentage of people in every case will see symptom improvement or a positive effect. This does not mean it’s made up, it means the mind is powerful and just because we don’t know how something works doesn’t mean it doesn’t bring relief. And the same goes with nocebo, or the way things can have an adverse or ill effect, too. But now David and Isabelle get to the other idea this author has, about how ADHD and autism and other diagnoses are being ‘over diagnosed,’ because, as the author states, autism used to mean something different than it does now, because now people later in life who are high masking are being diagnosed with it—and the cutoff points for diagnoses are being too muddled, and isn’t it (as the author puts it), “awful that kids will be labelled with these self-fulfilling prophecies” that will create limiting beliefs for them, isn’t it causing harm, can’t we meet kids needs without these labels? And more so, the cut off point should be “disablement.” But wait a minute, isn’t that pre-diabetes? But isn’t it like the biggest predictor of heroin use is milk consumption…because everyone who takes heroin used to drink milk. David wants to come at this. David wants more inclusive education, he doesn’t want smaller and smaller classrooms, and what to have a very diverse set of people in the room. A diverse group of people learning at once. To answer why do we need to label them? Because every person has different needs, we need labels to tailor education to each person. The more standardized it becomes the more it becomes marginalized. Stay in your lane, let people within the culture manage the stigma around the culture. “Can you just include someone from these communities?” A bunch of people talking about us and deciding what’s harming us without talking to us. Isabelle refers back to psychopharmacology and psychopathology class—you gotta learn a ton about diagnostic criteria and learn how to categorize the experiences of people your seeing. Isabelle’s professor was a neuropsychologist and was very into accurate language. You can look at diagnoses from a couple of different angles—why do we diagnosis? We need to have a standardized understanding of a group of experiences, so when we talk about it we all say “this is the part that we mean.” There needs to be some kind of shared consensus around what ADHD means. Cut off points could be true for insurance purposes, political, and financial, and for research and understanding, and it also is not all encompassing—but if you accurately sync a person up to a diagnosis, it gives them an understanding of a person that helps them. Everyone isn’t self-diagnosing. It’s the people who resonate with the experiences of those who are AuDHD or autistic or an ADHDer. David names that he loves the podcast (as does Isabelle, she’s a big archerry) and that the people on this podcast are falling into something society does, not necessarily leading society there, which is validating external manifestations of pain rather than internal frustration. David leans on the work of Marcus Soutra, with the idea that perhaps instead of thinking of things as diagnoses, it's more of an identification. We’re accurately identifying people.  Isabelle further details that they mention that mental health diagnoses go up when mental health awareness is spread. To which she wonders—what about how psychoeducation and awareness allow for people to be more vulnerable and feel safe disclosing what's really going on, internally? The example that ‘doesn’t everyone have a little ADHD’ is—-wrong. Nope, Not everyone. But maybe those who have untreated ADHD do? And with the example of Bill Gates identifying as autistic, and the author naming that she doesn’t see him as having struggles or disability, again, a very external definition—they have no clue about what he has gone through or what it is like to go through life not fully understanding yourself without such an identity. Autism and ADHD is not necessarily a learning difference 

Armchair Expert episode Isabelle is referencing

Suzanne O'Sullivan's book, The Age of Diagnosis

USEFUL DEFINITIONS
Psychosomatic - a word that literally means "mind" and "body" -- where stress or worry make a symptom or condition develop, get worse, or show up in the first place. While common usage means we often think this is saying "it's all in your head,"or that it's not real---it's saying the opposite: it's saying that the mind has such a powerful effect that it can cause real physical pain and suffering and that illnesses and all kinds of conditions can have many different causes. This does not mean what you're experiencing is not real, it means we now understand that stressors and emotions and our minds can connect to a number of health conditions. See here for more (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

Placebo effect - the way a sugar pill or random remedy (used in clinical research trials for a medication, let's say, or a 'fake surgery' in surgical trials, where nothing is implanted or changed) produces symptom relief and improvement as if it were a real pill or real surgically-altering procedure. This means that the person experiences actual change, again, that is not explained by the treatment or pill being studied. We don't fully understand why this is, but we know it's there, and it likely has something to do with a person's expectations of whether something could help them. It has a big impact on research and neuroscience in general. See here for more (Source: NIH 2023)

Nocebo effect - opposite from placebo, where a person's negative expectations play out when given a sugar pill or 'sham' surgery and their symptoms get worse even thought they did not receive any medicine or treatment that would give them side effects. See here for more (Source: NIH 2012).

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cover art by:

Let's revisit a bunch of neurodivergent folx reminiscing about what it was like growing up (and being diagnosed with) ADHD in the 90's. Featuring some real gems about accommodations for reading, what hyperfocus can feel like, and stuff about Richard Dreyfuss.
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Isabelle & David welcome Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, and David’s childhood friend, Ashley, who both also have ADHD. Ashley shares that she was diagnosed with ADHD back in ’94 when understanding of ADHD was still in its early days and accommodations like audio books and extended time for test taking were new(er). The group describes what reading looks like, including eye tracking issues connected to ADHD—and the levels of accommodations they each use, including highlighters, white noise, audiobooks, etc. One way of handling a breakup is to mouth the words to the song that's playing while you're being dumped. Other accommodations to encourage hyperfocus on reading also include listening to older instrumental music, and matching beats per minute to the task you're doing. The advantages of continuous play on music platforms (like Spotify, not a sponsor) and the rabbit holes you can get lost in. Bobby’s tangent on a gem of a comedy album (see below). The group also discusses other labels that you can gather along the way with ADHD; David was labelled as having behavior problems, skipping class, acting out. Bobby experienced the world as Ferris Buehler and his response to being bullied was to work the system to get the bullies to leave you alone. How impulsivity can help you work the system or leave you hanging. The idea of either not trying to make waves or making waves when none are around. The message David got was that there was something wrong with him. The white privilege of an ADHD diagnosis, as opposed to being labeled oppositional defiant. 

Name of Bobby’s find (click for a link to a youtube video): I Wanna Meet Richard Dreyfuss by Gabriel Gundacker

Eye tracking issues (related to ADHD): Typical issues that can impair reading are related to either impulsively (jumping to a wrong line) or attention issues related to thinking about off topic things while reading. Click here for more.

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS:

IMPOSTER SYNDROME is the belief you don't belong/are bad, or that you have to be perfect on the outside along with the fear you will be found out/exposed and people will know you're a mess on the inside. 

OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT (Disorder, AKA ODD) is a clinical diagnosis that is applied to children marked by intentional acts of disobedience, and conflicts with authority. This diagnosis is much different than a diagnosis of ADHD, although some parts of ADHD can be oppositional in nature, they are not truly rooted in fighting Authority, as much as the rooted in finding agency. For example, a person with ADHD may find themselves fighting an authority figure because they took a candy bar they were eating and want the candy bar back. A person with ODD would fighting the authority figure because they were an authority figure, forgetting about the candy bar.

RESPONSE COST is understanding the consequences of our actions, later down the road.

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cover art by: Sol Vázquez
technical support by: Bobby Richards

So with news articles and headlines about how folks with ADHD need to get off their meds or go outside or be 'cured', there's something of a big misunderstanding and gaps in perspectives on ADHD and what it actually means. Including our shared values as a real ADHD culture, especially around how people or authority figures will relate to us. David and Isabelle describe some of the shared values in neurodivergent or ADHD culture, including ideas around masking, disclosing, lateral thinking, and questioning authority--and whether you believe that others, particularly those in power, will help you or understand you. Exploring many aspects of the neurodivergent community--and how groups form--ADHDers (more likely than the average bear) identify as members of LGBTQ+ communities, members of nontraditional or non-dominant faith groups, entrepreneurs, tech-friendly folx, and members of the military, to start. From recognizing that there are stages and phases to feeling like you can both belong and be unique, to the power of community in developing a sense of self-esteem, the need to have metacognition (or an understanding of WHY a thing is or how it works for you).
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David starts by naming that within a neurodivergent or ADHD culture, there are shared values. And what we believe might be impacted by our approach to masking and our context—did we have to mask a lot? Do we need masking or not? But it also asks us: do we believe that people will help us? That schools will help us? That people with power or systemic power will support us or understand us?  David doesn't think that trust in these systems is high in the ADHD population. A lot of people don’t feel like they can trust the system and it might be why we don’t disclose, we don’t share, we don’t ask. We are a subgroup, but we are not substandard. Lots of wars being waged on ADHD, and that entire perspective ignores the things that are important. Since David joined Eye to Eye years ago and joined the ND community, he watched graduation rates go up, he’d give talks in a room and ask “who has adhd?” And no one would raise their hand. “Does it feel wrong to be asked?” And now when you talk about it in a group, people raise their hands right away. There is the good work. There is a cultural war on ADHD. Isabelle names that one of the strengths of ADHD, which is important to include in any future articles, is that we think ‘creatively,’ also known as lateral or divergent thinking. We don’t necessarily follow a linear thought process and skip around  think laterally or divergently. For her fellow AuDHDers, Isabelle recognizes that she does want clarity and often tries to go back to a linear though process to make sure she’s understanding something clearly. But in general, the lateral thinking—lends itself to questioning authority, taking multiple perspectives, playing devil’s advocate, which doesn’t necessarily mean that people feel comfortable sharing this. There’s a larger percentage of us that identify as queer or LGBTQ+ communities, nonbinary, gender fluid—there’s also a larger percentage of us that its int he military, tech community, entrepreneurs. We tolerate risk differently. David names that this allows us a different way of recognizing our needs. If the rest of the world tells you something should meet your needs but it doesn’t, you’re going to maybe go back to the drawing board and start to think about things a little differently. You may be a more natural out of the box thinker, because of a lack of neural pruning. More doesn’t mean better, and it doesn’t mean worse. It’s not a a hierarchy. Just acknowledging it exists gives people a place to belong. Isabelle describes the stages of building a group—we first debate if we want to join, we norm and create a share a set of values and create a cohesion, and then the strength of the group’s cohesiveness is tested and retested with storming and questioning and then you come to the place where you are both an individual and belong, that both can coexist dynamically. Even in Isabelle’s own process of joining this group of neurodivergence, when she cried at the mailboxes with David, she is feeling this with the autistic side of her, and she’s seeing it everywhere and she deeply wants to belong, and then she’s questioning or noticing the differences, and then she’s cozy in being different and yet belonging. David names how important self esteem is for us; and we can’t really develop self esteem alone, it helps you to see others who get it and can resonate with you. Three most important factors: self esteem, ability to advocate for your needs, and metacognition (understand we do what we do). You shouldn’t have to try so hard to ‘fit into’ a culture, it should be more natural. Isabelle names how metacognition, or changing your operating instructions, gives you a chance to reframe your own history, your present and your plans, and your needs are different than what you realized. Referencing the NYT article about ADHD meds—if you have no concept of what medication is doing for you or connecting with your medication, it's like you’re fueling yourself up with a really good fuel source and you have no direction to put it in. David wants a formalized response to the NYTimes article. A formal round table. 

The strengths of ADHD — see Dr. Holly White's work at the University of Michigan (Scientific American article)

• Divergent or lateral thinking - probably most commonly called "brainstorming," it's when you generate multiple ideas, applications, solutions, problems, and hop around instead of just focusing on one answer--see this interesting guide from the University of Texas at Austin that helps teachers learn how to ENCOURAGE divergent thinking in their students.  
• How divergent thinking is connected to creativity (study)

As well as addressing self esteem and practicing self-advocacy, work with ADHD means developing:

Metacognition — thinking about your thinking, or why you do what you do. It’s like understanding you’ve been handled incorrect or inapplicable instructions. Knowing why you need an accommodation and why it helps. It involves an awareness as well as an ability to regulate/choose a strategy (eg. changing how you study for a particular test). (source: Wikipedia).
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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Isabelle and David talk 'stimming'-AKA "Self-stimulating behavior": what is this word, where does it come from, and what does it mean to 'stim'? Perhaps spoken of more in the autism community, stimming applies to ADHD also, and can connect to not just how we use sensory inputs as ballasts or balance systems, but also unique indicators of a ADHD culture of our own. David and Isabelle dig deep with some adorable sneezes, more on the ballast systems of ships, and the tail expressions of animals along the way.
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David and Isabelle describe how cat and dog tails are completely different in indicating their state. David’s cat was so still with just the tip of its tail bobbing back and forth, and David pointed out that that’s how you can tell a cat is happy. Which is the exact opposite of how you can tell a dog is happy, with an exuberantly wagging tail. And maybe this relates a little bit to stimming, in that someone might interpret Isabelle’s bouncing leg as an indication of one internal state, when actually she is stimming and feeling very calm as she does it. There could be two ADHD camps here: one for dogs, one for cats. Perhaps most ADHDers would align with dogs, as in we tend to vibrate when we’re happy. David knows when he’s still and quiet he is very alert and something’s wrong. Isabelle’s dog is currently whining at the door and she is like her dog in that she gives her all her needs and yet she has more needs? Isabelle is curious about internal stimming, like when she ruminates or revisits things in her head to self-stimulated. David talks about this as acting in or acting out, and maybe he’s doing some action, or he’s thinking or connecting with an internal world. Stimming is thought of as an action, that is repetitive or relieving in some way. Acting in and acting out was something David was naming 20 years ago, but now we use the term “stimming” — and it’s doing something to keep your heart rate up. Isabelle did not see it used around ADHD but it does connect, but she sees it a lot around AuDHD — it comes from diagnostic origins, but the function of it is what David describes as exhaust. If his engine is running, there’s going to be something going on somewhere. Slowly picking at a nail, feeling the tension of his pants, something to help him regulate his attention—like a ballast. This sends Isabelle off on a tangent about being a tween going to see “Titanic” because she was into boat architecture after seeing documentaries about the Titanic about the ships ballast getting flooded—the idea that you have these big walls that are designed to bring on some water  in order to balance the ship. Isabelle walks around with Trex arms, and it’s like she is letting some of the world in and that helps her pick what’s coming at her on a sensory level, because she can’t really tune out the rest anyway, it's like taking in some stimulation to stay afloat. David describes how other ballasts could be biting down on leather when getting an amputation. If you give your body something to do it can distract it. While Isabelle isa bout to go on a tangent about pain theory, her dog needs to go outside, and so indeed, behavior is communication. Now David sneezes. And it’s adorable. And he has to fight the reflex to not say “F you” back, because he has sneezed adorably for a long time now and his friend David C. Would always tease him and so he’d respond lovingly with an “F you!” And so he now needs to describe it all. David then segue ways to a definition of culture. Isabelle studied anthropology and archaeology in college, and remembers a professor saying that you know a culture exists when there is an in-group and an out-group and that culture is a set of adaptations to a human’s environment. For example, chimpanzees, they stick a twig in a termite mound and then they eat the termites, and thinking about it archaeologically that a being used a thing to do something that nature did not use it for, so when archaeologists speak of a culture its around distinct patterns of how things were made and the area where people lived in. If we were archaeologists of the future, if we came back to earth, could we notice distinct enough artifacts that would indicate there is some difference in this group? Or we could think of it as a series of adaptations for the environments in which we find ourselves. Referencing the NYTimes article, the parts we can resonate with, ADHD is about so many more things than that. So dysregulating because it’s 70% accurately, you just left out so many important details and experts and points—that thing that pains Isabelle is that this article is so long and takes so much energy to digest and is just an aspect of the book. David points out that it states that medicine has diminishing returns, because OF COURSE it doesn’t mention that medication is intended to be used with therapy and of course the medication doesn’t help you with the self esteem repair or accommodation strategies so in a vacuum you get diminishing returns. Isabelle is so on board and also frustrated that this is coming at a time when the world is extra scary and intense. David names that he thinks we would see signs of ADHD culture--organizing in piles, the sheer volume of fidget spinners, etc. Isabelle agrees, the material culture alone would create an interesting set of indicators that something different is happening in certain households that is unique and also in common with one another.

Stimming (aka "Self-Stimulatory Behavior) -originally attributed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but also occurs in neurodivergent AND neurotypical or allistic (non-autistic) folks. It means repetitive physical movements, sounds, or actions that someone engages in (aka leg bouncing, finger tapping, hand flapping, twirling hair, humming, repeating words, staring, pacing, doodling, playing with fidgets, chewing gum, smelling or touching things..so many stims!).

Useful for: so many things! For when your senses are overloaded or your understimulated, can help you focus and concentrate, can be a way to learn about or interact with your environment, or to cope with anxiety, stress, excitement, or big feels.

Culture (Source: Oxford Language Dictionary): "the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group." OR, "anthropologically, culture is defined as a complex, shared system of learned beliefs, values, behaviors, and symbols that allows a group of people to understand and interact with the world. It's a dynamic, evolving set of practices and ideas that shape a group's identity and way of life" (from sapiens.org)

The notorious NY Times article ("Are we thinking about ADHD all wrong?" by Paul Tough) David and Isabelle are referencing

Chimpanzees eating termites like a lollipop (AKA chimps having a material culture)

Ballast: YES these are compartments designed to be flooded and dispense with water to help balance a ships weight and regulate how buoyant it is in water (how it floats) (see Wikipedia definition of "Ballast Tank" for more) AND superintricate maps and explanations of the...

Isabelle finishes sharing her neuropsych results, including recommendations for ADHD and autism (HINT: unmask! WHAT?) From the categorization of ADHD like a storm warning system (Mild/moderate/severe) to how job interviews might be the one place to mask (and how David does his interviews), David and Isabelle spelunk around how certain measures, like empathy, are not 'markers' of autism in the way we may think.  Share your favorite fidgets with us! Go to somethingshinypodcast.com/fidgetlove now!

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Isabelle goes into greater detail about how her neuropsychological assessment was able to show her how she initiates and sustains auditory and visual attention and a little bit on processing speed. But to get more data, she’d need to undergo testing designed for people with traumatic brain injuries or strokes or dementia—what? It's a little strange to realize that the gold standard for learning more about brain functioning as a grown up with ADHD is the same that’s used for brain injuries.  David points out that he uses the word neurodivergent intentionally, in order to point out that there is a diversity of brains, rather than a deficiency or something wrong with you. There are brains that work well in crisis and brains that work well when things are calm. Doesn’t that make sense? Would we say that someone would be “severely apt” at handling chaos? Maybe, you just do what you’re good at? Isabelle goes back to the scale of mild/moderate/severe ADHD—mild reads as boring, moderate—moderation SUCKS—all the words for the scale are poor. David names: if you can’t use the words to apply to “happiness” —it’s a bad scale for humans. Would you say you are ‘mildly or severely happy?” Probably not. So maybe we use different words for humans. People with ADHD are not storms and do not require storm warnings (last time we checked). As part of her neuropsychological evaluation, Isabelle got pages and pages of recommendations for next steps. She got a lot of great data, and also realized that one episode of Something Shiny provides more—so that was affirming and helpful in terms of the work the podcast and its community are doing. Her evaluator left off her autism recommendations, sending them along later, but said, essentially, the only recommendation is to unmask more. That “the only place masking is helpful is in job interviews.” Other than that it’s harmful. It takes energy, it burns people out, it’s hard. Isabelle then goes on to rant about how biased job interviews are, unless you’re giving case examples—but then, David is also super good at job interviews. He checks—did you go to high school or college? Cool, you must be smart. Then, do you want to work with him? Check. Then, would he want to hang out with this person? Yup. And finally, a bunch of curveballs to see how people think on their feet. Because that helps you see how people think and how they communicate about their problem solving, which is good data. Then David names that there are questions he’d love to ask about people that he can’t, beyond the protected class questions about age or location or self-identity—he wishes he could ask if someone is neurodivergent or if someone in their family is neurodivergent, that is an asset to David. He sees the ability to think outside the box in order to do what they do. But he knows he’s not trusted, most hiring people are lying to you, employers are anxious, you’re not going to like them. Every employer is terrified of rejection, it’s so complicated. But he sees neurodiversity and awareness of that as a major plus—if somebody understands that and has self-esteem around it, knows what accommodations they need, they are curious about that. Isabelle has such a bias for self-insight—she wonders, how someone who was so socially off the rhythm of her peers, how was it that she had a lot of high measures for sensory things, but high measures on empathy? Which seems odd, because all of the autistic people Isabelle knows have off the charts empathy, which David concurs. Like the empathy for the crushed ant on the sidewalk. This is so true for Isabelle, she remembers crying for hours about a three-legged hamster she saw in a pet store named “Tiny Tim”—in retrospect, his paw was probably chewed off by his littermates or his mom because hamsters are ROUGH like that—but her mom told her he was okay because he was “fat”—to be fair, she was fatphobic and Polish immigrant mentality an maybe also autistic herself, but she was so distraught. She used to track one ant walking all the way to its hill to make sure it made it because she felt personally responsible for seeing that it was okay. She was so scared she’d look at it later and wonder if she wasn’t autistic—but the stakes were so high, she was scared of not having the community she felt like she was on the cusp of having and understanding. As David puts it: "we will fight for worth and identity." Even more so, Isabelle learns that her own stereotype about autism meaning she is low empathy (even indicated on the 'measures' of autism on the assessments she took) is where she doesn't 'meet criteria' for autism, and how that would keep her up at night. Until her neuropsychiatrist pointed out: it has more to do with a snapshot of where you are and your accommodations. Of course someone who is in their 40's, has been high masking their whole life, and who special interests in humans AKA psychology would be high on empathy measures--she wasn't like this as a kid but it took decades for her to 'get it.' And what a revelation, that autism and empathy are not what we stereotypically assume they might be!

Also, send us photos or links to your fave fidgets! We'll put 'em on our website and share the fidget love. 

DEFINITIONS

Note: “Neuropsych” is shorthand for BOTH a neuropsychological assessment or a neuropsychologist (which is confusing).

Neuropsychologist is "an expert in how brain injuries and conditions affect your behavior, mood and thinking skills. They perform neuropsychological evaluations to assess how your brain and mind are working and suggest treatment plans." (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

A neuropsychological assessment is a series of interviews and tests (computer, written, drawing, solving puzzles, etc. no magnets, radiation, electrodes, or medical procedures involved) — the type of test is based on what is being explored. This battery (or collection) of tests, often done across multiple sessions, help a neuropsychologist determine a psychological diagnosis, treatment plan, and get a sense of how your brain works. Typically recommended by school systems/medical system to assess kids to help figure out what learning differences and accommodations may be helpful, but these assessments are not just for kids! Adults can use them to gain self-understanding, establish a baseline (if dementia or high-risk contact sports play is involved), or even figure out what parts of your brain have been injured or might be affected by brain surgery. Because kids grow and development so much, they are often redone every 2-4 years. Here’s more on neuropsychological assessments from the Cleveland Clinic.

Masking: when neurodivergent individuals pretend to be neurotypical, hide or minimize their stims, and even pretend they have the sam...

Isabelle and David continue to explore how an official ADHD or autism or AuDHD diagnosis might be a useful bridge to belong to a community. But what about the people who see these labels as pathologizing, including famous ADHD researchers like Dr. Russell Barkely? David and Isabelle explore some of the ways that thinking of ADHD from the negatives only and leaves people using the label not as a tool for empowerment, self-understanding, and advocacy--but as an excuse. Furthermore, what about labels like "Asperger's" (low-support need/high-masking autism) that has its roots in Nazi extermination camps? Neuropsychs Explored Part III.

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The pro to identifying as having ADHD that David now understands, that he didn't understand years ago, was that it allows you to fit into a culture and a group differently. He walked into a room in his 30’s (at an Eye-to-Eye conference) and found himself fitting in. David needed the label to understand himself. He brings up Dr. Russell Barkley and his research—Isabelle jumps in with a factoid about Barkley’s twin who had ADHD and addiction issues and died in a car accident…which helps give her context for why Barkley is so big on ADHD being a risk factor while driving. David wants to make it clear—it is a tragic story, and he’s not about casting anyone as evil or bad—but Barkeley’s work does do a number on people’s self esteem. They look at his research and think they can’t change and they start to use ADHD as an excuse, not an explanation. It’s important to have compassion for people, he does talk a lot about addiction and car crashes, and we all have sad parts of our past, and its what we do now that matters. When he’s talking to a room for non-ADHDers, they tend to think that people with ADHD are less, rather than more. He likes folk music and David likes rap, and David is not going to pretend to like folk music. Isabelle names that she tries to make sense of something so dehumanizing, like the six hour training she sat through of his that left her in tears, gaining some context for his story gave her a chance to reduce how slimed she felt. Knowing why does decrease suffering. Isabelle has seen a lot of hostility and backlash about AuDHD. Autism is a spectrum—yes, there are non speakers and folks with high support needs. But maybe it was what back in the day was called Asperger’s, a now unused term. David names that Dr. Asperger was a Nazi (sympathizer?) Who created a line around autism (essentially how high-masking someone was) that determined who lived and died. For more on this deep history of Asperger — check out the links below. Isabelle and David agree to have a way longer conversation on the history of neurodivergence. Isabelle talks more about her neuropsych assessment, including sample questions, and fill in the blank type sentences to write. And she was given a questionnaire to give to someone who knows her well—for kids, this might be both to caregivers and teachers, so they can get data about how the kid is functioning in multiple environments. Isabelle then waits, gets a twenty-some page document, and they sit down and cover it all. Isabelle has in the months between first hearing the neuropsychologist state that she meets criteria for autism, confirming her suspicions, she went on a deep dive on all these pieces of information. Isabelle felt the fear of having this diagnosis taken away from her felt so deeply. It was so hard, even just listening to the summary, she wanted to skip to the end (another autistic trait, she is learning, wanting to know the context so she can track what’s being described or knowing where it’s going), and she yes, she has autism, and she burst into tears. Isabelle finally has an answer to the riddle, which a chunk of it related to ADHD, but this is another part of the mystery, like she has been looking in funhouse mirrors her whole life, and now she has an accurate reflection of who she is, like a real, non-distorted mirror. She also has “severe” ADHD. David and Isabelle dig in with how negative this criteria is (which, side note, connects to Barkley’s research). Are we weather systems? Are we severely awesome? Maybe we change it to extremely? Gah. 

Asperger’s and the history of neurodivergence 

Articles and books on 

Dr. Russell Barkley 

Known as a big researcher of ADHD, does really good research, and pushes forward a lot of diagnostic criteria and is in a position of power changing the game for a lot of humans. The caveat that Isabelle and David often make is that: he takes a really doom and gloom, pathologizing perspective (which are scary research-based bits of information).  

Asperger’s 

Autism: you have 40% chance of ADHD, and then 

DEFINITIONS

Note: “Neuropsych” is shorthand for BOTH a neuropsychological assessment or a neuropsychologist (which is confusing).

Neuropsychologist is "an expert in how brain injuries and conditions affect your behavior, mood and thinking skills. They perform neuropsychological evaluations to assess how your brain and mind are working and suggest treatment plans." (Source: Cleveland Clinic).

A neuropsychological assessment is a series of interviews and tests (computer, written, drawing, solving puzzles, etc. no magnets, radiation, electrodes, or medical procedures involved) — the type of test is based on what is being explored. This battery (or collection) of tests, often done across multiple sessions, help a neuropsychologist determine a psychological diagnosis, treatment plan, and get a sense of how your brain works. Typically recommended by school systems/medical system to assess kids to help figure out what learning differences and accommodations may be helpful, but these assessments are not just for kids! Adults can use them to gain self-understanding, establish a baseline (if dementia or high-risk contact sports play is involved), or even figure out what parts of your brain have been injured or might be affected by brain surgery. Because kids grow and development so much, they are often redone every 2-4 years. Here’s more on neuropsychological assessments from the Cleveland Clinic.

Stimming (aka "Self-Stimulatory Behavior) -originally attributed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD), but also occurs in neurodivergent AND neurotypical or allistic (non-autistic) folks. It means repetitive physical movements, sounds, or actions that someone engages in (aka leg bouncing, finger tapping, hand flapping, twirling hair, humming, repeating words, staring, pacing, doodling, playing with fidgets, chewing gum, smelling or touching things..so many stims!).

Useful for: so many things! For when your senses are overloaded or your understimulated, can help you focus and concentrate, can be a way to learn about or interact with your environment, or to cope with anxiety, stress, excitement, or big feels.

Masking: when neurodivergent individuals pretend to be neurotypical, hide or minimize their stims, and even pretend they have the same reasons for doing things (like Isabelle saying "yes, I'm antsy" when she's pacing, when really she feels good and grounded when she paces or goes from room to room).

David and Isabelle go into greater depth about neuropsychological assessments--both back in the day and now-for kids, and for adults--and Isabelle's AHA moment about self-disclosing her AuDHD self. From the odd history of the intersection of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and ADHD (did you know you couldn't be diagnosed with both for a long long time?) to realizing how literally she takes the world and how much it helps to finally have a turn signal on the car that is her, David and Isabelle dive deep into unmasking and the mistrust we have for the world when we are so misunderstood.

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Isabelle likes having her new neuropsychological results because someone who is not her got to tell her that she has autism, and David has a different experience. His story was like three different hours of testing done at school, and it spit out that he was Oppositional Defiant, and then only in college did it notice he had differences in spelling and then ADHD. His experience is watching clients have their kids be flagged by a pediatrician or teacher to be tested and then they want to retest themselves. But David is so scared he’d go in now and learn…he doesn’t have ADHD? And that Isabelle actually understands this, because there was a big gap (of several months) between the interview and the tests. Isabelle goes into further details around how she took her test in a little cubicle. And how for kids, it looks more like play, it involves an IQ test and way more details about processing speed, working memory, visual spatial reasoning, reading, symbols, numbers, etc. to help with understanding learning differences and accommodations. So Isabelle had to sit in a cubicle and stare at a computer and click on a mouse for fifteen minutes and it was awful. When he was a kid, David was pulled from class, he had no idea how long it was going to take, there was a person sitting there who was reading from a book and asking him questions. For kids, a level of buy-in becomes very important, it’s hard to get data when you’re a willing participant. For David, his first neuropsych showed how unwilling he was to participate, because it was something he was forced to do because there was “something wrong” and they were looking for what was wrong. This is not don’t like this anymore. It’s important to talk to someone who has been assessed to see how they liked their assessment. You can get a second opinion. There are people who specialize in different areas of neuropsychological testing. And someone who is great at diagnosing ADHD may not be great at diagnosing autism or vice versa. And up until 7 years ago or so, it was impossible to have both autism and ADHD be a primary diagnosis; which connected to insurance company lobbying when the DSM was being updated, ensuring that the rates of certain conditions wouldn’t skyrocket because that would impact insurance coverage and ability to cover/deny and all kinds of political and social isms. The history of diagnoses and what makes the cutoffs incorporates layers of ableism, racism, sexism, homophobia…all kinds of oppression. David names how important it was an opening when you could have a combined AuDHD diagnosis because it started to mean that these diagnoses of deficiency, and all the stereotypes around all autistics being nonspeakers or having high support needs, started to get busted and it became more encompassing, maybe even of strengths? It’s possible for us to be complex beings, being perceived as having ADHD or autism in another context. We are the keepers of the stigma, it was the ‘last thing we wanted to be.’ The other day, Isabelle’s kid went to the doctor, and she always felt the doctor was annoyed with her for being so literal and asking so many detail-oriented questions. Her kid answered the doctor’s question of “does your throat hurt?” By checking in and saying “No.” And she had a lightbulb flash and realized he was taking the doctor literally. So she tells her kid “You and me, we both take things really literally and answer questions extremely honestly. I think the doctor means when she asks if your throat hurts, she means across the last week or so and not necessarily all the time or right now.” And he answers, “YES!” And she saw the doctor warm up to her kid and to her and she felt the difference, and maybe it was the vulnerability or the disclosure. For David's friend, there was a significant amount of distrust in the world, there was a pattern of miscommunication and people asking you things that they don’t mean, when they learned they were autistic, their last instinct was to tell someone. But when they came back from the dentist, they talked about how much the light was bothering them, they gave me some glasses and made it so much better. David can't make us all believe we are safe, we can feel cared for when we tell people what we need and they respond. Statistically, some of the time, your need won't be missed and until recently, Isabelle didn't know she really needed, she would’ve said words like “anxious” and “please give me more time" 

Isabelle shares the results of her neuropsych with David: she is AuDHD! As a grown human learning she has AuDHD (ADHD + Autism Spectrum Disorder), what does it mean to 'get a neuropsych?' What even IS a neuropsych? Who gets one and why? How does high-masking autism look like for Isabelle? Busting myths, calling out fun factoids, and celebrating this news and the decrease of suffering it has brought to gain self-understanding and acceptance.
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Isabelle is SO EXCITED to see David's face. Because for the last few recording sessions she hasn’t been able to see his face. And now she can see his face. She doesn’t know she misses it, and David is wagging his tail and doesn’t know if she’s making any sense. The checking for understanding is missing. Isabelle got back her neuropsychological assessment results back. She has “severe” ADHD and also, is high-masking autistic. A fairly common question is: do I need to get a neuropsych? What does it do? David names we can all know something but this is different from the actual experience of it. Are there electrodes to your head? (no) How many magnets are you exposed to? (none) Is there a flowchart?  Isabelle doesn’t know a ton about assessments but she knows a little more now. So, for each job title or profession, you can administer different types of assessments, which involve data from interviews, and written/verbal tests—and a “neuropsychiatric assessment” is conducted by a neuropsychologist, someone who is skilled at administering and interpreting test results as well as being super savvy about neuroscience and the brain. It’s a battery of tests that is designed to help someone determine a psychological diagnosis (and how a diagnosis impacts your thinking, behavior, feelings, functioning, etc.). Isabelle’s experience was, she had used up her deductible and one of her kids as well as her and Bobby decided they wanted to learn more about themselves and get a neuropsych. And she wanted to test it out because she always had a little more mustard on the hot dog of ADHD, more auditory sensory stuff. So Isabelle went in for about an hour long interview and asked me a lot of directive, specific questions. No electrodes, sitting in a cozy office. She was asking questions about friendship, life history type questions about her childhood. With ADHD and Autism, you’re talking about neurodevelopmental conditions, meaning it’s baked in and showing up throughout your life. She was asking a lot of questions about what it was like for Isabelle socially, the years of bullying and taking things very literally, social faux pas, being late to catch on to social subtext or data. And stimming? Which applies to all neurospicy folk. David likens it to a car exhaust—it’s not anxiety, it’s repetitive movements that let out extra steam and overstimulation, when your senses have taking in too much it helps you release. Isabelle thought it was anxiety! But she…actually isn't very anxious. She likes wearing tight clothes and textures, she flaps her hands and holds her hands like a t-rex. She’s realizing how much she would be overloaded after a day, and she would pace, and wiggle her hands, she needs detailed handwriting, and she just wants to be left alone under her weighted blanket. And be crying. She’d say “and I'm overhwlemed because I had a hard day at work!” When for her, she was missing a crucial piece of information. Which is she went to Target, and was under fluorescent lights, and some random stranger talked to her and she didn’t understand it, and then when she said “what?” He looked at her funny, and THAT connected more to the state she found herself in than having a bad day at work. Sitting with uncomfortable feelings and anxiety is different—David names that with anxiety, people can be thought of as fragile, and that can be helpful—but when it’s applied to someone who is neurodiverse, who isn’t fragile, it can be pretty frustrating. David describes how he sits and bounces his leg pretty fast and his whole body will be shaking (best kind!) And David is sitting there stimming, and people turn to him "it's okay, it’s just a doctor's office” and they assume he's anxious, but he’as actually in an ADHD stupor and he’s bored and waiting and feeling good. So much of how people are perceived has a significant element of judgment. Over and over again because she's sitting still or pacing or rocking on her feet—they read Isabelle as impatient or angry, blew her mind. When you see her rocking back and forth and expressionless she's super happy and chill, but you take it as a signal she needs to mask and explain and do things to signal she’s happy and sometimes she doesn’t understand it herself so she just says “yes, I am angry.” And she thought she was a liar—because she’d be dishonest, she’d agree with someone else and say “yeah, I’m antsy.” Even if she wasn’t. David points out that that’s not lying, that’s masking. David speaks to how complicated lying is in neurodiversity, because friends will say “I’ll see you tomorrow night" but then there’s an Impulsive moment and it doesn't happen. How integrity can be perceived, and what you want to own about ourselves. Going back to the assessment process, she had a student in a room and Isabelle likes this because (she’s realizing) it helps her play the eye contact game. David describes the hack of looking at people between their eyebrows instead of in their eyes. Isabelle owns that for her, not for every neurons-icy or otherwise human, she feels like she's gazing into a person’s soul when she makes direct eye contact. It feels rude to her to look at her eyes without a closer emotional bond and without consent, and she looks a bit higher and eyebrows give her data and when she's looking at someone's eyes its too much. David shares: it’s ten times more stimulating to look someone in the eye (10 times more neurons fire). WHAT?! yes. Isabelle is sobbing and confused saying “am I crazy? Am I making up that I am on the spectrum for some weird reason?” She was also listening to see if getting a neuropsych is worthwhile for her (for school or work accommodations)? ADHD was so obvious to Isabelle, but this was causing her distress: the idea and theme in her life of being the last to know something obvious. Increased understanding reduces suffering—what are choices? What are your needs? So much about what shouldn’t or should? What parts of things can you embrace v. ‘Toughing it out.’ Isabelle was in there after an hour and some change. Bobby also went in for a half hour and came out and got resources on ADHD and doesn't seem like he'd get a lot out of a neuropsych and if so, it’s not causing any pain, and maybe you already know what you know and you don’t go through this? Side note, this is not a prerequisite for self-diagnosis. This is a systemic hurtle, it can help you understand the world around you or help you get accommodations around specific areas of work, v. Being in school. But bear in mind, it’s not just for kids.

Eye contact being more stimulating than not in general --in short, it connects to nervous system arousal (even brings in the fight/flight system) as well as dopamine loads and social conventions (like reciprocal communication) but in short, this study sums up a bunch of studies across time that show how eye contact is perceived and impacts nervous systems. (Source: Frontiers in Psychology)

Why eye contact may be EXTRA overstimulating for autistic individuals (Source: Scientific Reports, 2017): hint, ...

Isabelle and David welcome back Marcus Soutra, co-founder of Eye to Eye and founder of For the Good Consulting, and explore the nature of authenticity, "coolness" and the meaning of masking with nation-wide advocacy expert and fellow ADHD and LD-er. How did being "cool" go from being rich and unaffected to being authentic and open about ND/LD identities? From the loneliness and high masking rates of ADHDers, to Abercrombie & Fitch t-shirts and social media, the ways ND culture has approached masking and unmasking.

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Isabelle talks about how being wealthy and affording the performance/clothes of ‘coolness’ growing up was Abercrombie & Fitch back in her high school days--these were expensive clothes that you had to get at the mall and were part of the performance of being 'cool.' And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform and be high masking, for her. There is a coolness factor, the kid who can pick up what’s cool has an advantage over the kid who doesn’t. Marcus sums it up: are you able to fit in and be embraced by the neurotypical world? And if you can’t, there’s the loner path, the bully path? The empathy he has for the bully path—they were, in his past, the LD/ND kids who were dealing with loneliness and not masking well and it was their way of finding their way to a role in the school community. 60% of people with ADHD say they mask on regular basis and 33% say there is a loneliness to the experience of having ADHD. Then there’s also the pain of being high-masking or being accepted by the neurotypical world, how little practice you have at sitting with who you really are, and finding a stable sense of self. There is a way to be a self to fit in that is not the same as an authentic, self-confident knowing-who-you-are self. The difference between doing it in a healthy way v. doing it in a way to survive. Hard to know what parts of you are okay, and when you’re blending into a neurotypical world, there’s a significant advantage of being able to read the rooms around social cues. Marginalized senses of self are real, having to exist believing you’re less than. Or believing if the mask ever falls, it’s terrifying. Isabelle names that there’s a management around masking and the layers, like she can unmask and say “I have ADHD!” but she doesn’t say, “I have ADHD and I screwed up the finances again so I can’t afford the school bill.” Something for her connects coolness to unaffectedness, not being vulnerable, or not caring what others think. Beyond the unique person who owns where they are, where does coolness come from in our culture? Marcus responds that it's often the people at the top of the social hierarchy, it’s the celebrities, the role models.  Growing up for Marcus, there were the most attractive movie stars who were dyslexia, like Tom Cruise, Orlando Bloom, not Paul Giamatti. When it came to Aspergers (previous name for low support need Autism, check out more in depth on this history below) or Autism (before it was known as Autism Spectrum Disorder or ASD) were superheroes, like RainMan, Temple Grandin, and that was our introduction to the autism community. If you’re dyslexic, the way to make it out is to have hotness or have superhero qualities, and if you don’t fit into either one of those, good luck. This brings up how celebrities are not so far removed anymore, from the days that you got these bland PR stories or tabloids, now you have people sharing their stories and unmasking on social media. Marcus names that authenticity is now a part of social media, and it’s important for celebrities to have a cause, to be speaking to some aspect of this. If we'recynical, it could be a branding strategy, or it could be a shift in culture, because this emphasis on authenticity rather than hiding has been a big change in the last five years. 

What is Abercrombie & Fitch? The following documentary covers it pretty much:

"White Hot: The Rise and Fall of Abercrombie and Fitch" (Netflix documentary)

DEFINITIONS:
Masking: Often used in referenced to autistic folx (Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)), it also applies to folx with ADHD, OCD, and all kinds of neurodivergence (ND) and learning differences (LD), like dyslexia, dycalculia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, etc. It’s the idea that you have to wear a neurotypical "mask" to be accepted or to engage in a world made for those that are neurotypical. You 'pretend' as if you brain and nervous system work in ways they don't. It can be (and feel like) a matter of survival. 

From a great article on the topic:

“For many neurodivergent people, masking is a survival tool for engaging in neurotypical societies and organizations. Masking (also called camouflaging) is the artificial performance of social behaviors deemed more “socially acceptable” in a neurotypical culture.”

For more on Marcus Soutra:

www.For the Good Consulting.com

Soutra is a dynamic, award-winning advocate, leader, and trailblazer in the field of neurodiversity (ND). An ND individual himself and former classroom teacher turned social entrepreneur, he co-founded and led Eye to Eye, scaling the organization’s impact on thousands of schools and individuals across the United States. A sought-after speaker, Soutra has delivered compelling talks on stages worldwide, from Harvard to Tokyo, has appeared in dozens of television broadcasts and podcasts,  and has been featured in leading publications including Forbes, The Hill, and Philanthropy Digest. In recognition of his transformative work, he received an honorary doctorate from his alma mater in the spring of 2024.

As the founder of For The Good Consulting, Soutra now supports organizations dedicated to driving systemic change for individuals furthest from opportunity. He resides in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife, an educator and learning specialist, where together they continue to advocate for a more equitable world for all students.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Isabelle and David welcome back Marcus Soutra, co-founder of Eye to Eye and founder of For the Good Consulting, and ask an interesting question of this nation-wide advocacy expert and fellow ADHD and LD-er: how has life in schools changed for neurodivergent kids, especially now that some of us are parents/educators/in charge? Are kids still afraid, as David was, of having to go to the nurses' office? And how has what's "cool" been redefined in the past decades? From trauma modes to collared shirts, from shifting ADHD from a diagnosis to an identity, the three explore perspectives on masking (AKA using energy to appear as neurotypical), which can be both a poison and a salve.

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David wonders, given that Marcus travels across the continental United States…what is he seeing as patterns in neurodivergent culture? Marcus describes that he sees the elder millennials having kids who are now being identified as being neurodivergent, and naming, “The trauma ends with me,” and they’re refusing to hand this off to the next generation, and because a generation that grew up with these labels are now turning into parents, school leaders, caregivers, people in charge. David likens this to growing up in an earlier generation where he was taught to toughen up, to take the knocks and handle it. Isabelle relates this to how when you’re living in survival mode, you can’t also be processing the trauma and making meaning of it, you first have to survive—and part of survival mode is to have tunnel vision, to stay tough, to not pause to feel. So it would make sense for a generation that maybe always was in survival mode to try to pass that on to their kids in the form of “toughen up.” She relates to wanting to break this cycle, though, so hard, as a parent. And also—what does David mean by the “boy named Sue” generation? (Answer: it’s a reference to a Johnny Cash song, see below). Marcus describes how this compares to other movements, where something that used to be a diagnosis or label is then taken back as an identity. As he has ADHD, he was hoping this change would happen so much faster, in his small, privileged ND community this change happened so rapidly. It does take these generational shifts and changes to make these things stick. David names that individually, we all have individual struggles that rub up against the system. It felt like school was meant to take parts of us away, it was like an eraser trying to shave parts off. But we are be keepers of that. In school there was no concept of advocating for an accommodation, it was just: do you want to look weird? Leaving class early to go get his meds. How has this changed for kids and adults? It’s hard to generalize because “you know one neurodivergent person, you know one neurodivergent person.” But having an open conversation about something and talk about it and acknowledge and not other it—it does set it up for students to have a teacher they can talk to and ask for what they need (even one adult in that building). The needle has moved from the average high schooler even knowing what dyslexia/ADHD/any ND or LD is. Marcus wasn’t bummed out about dyslexic, but back in high school, it was other people were going to see him being different. He refused to get accommodations for the third time, because if he got accommodations for it, he wouldn’t take the SAT at the same time. Isabelle remembers that as a full body memory, taking the SAT being a production back in the day and even in her own experience being bussed on the short bus into a different school for a Gifted program and how it signaled you were different but also you didn’t want to belong to this select tribe, either.  David names: different is dangerous in some ways, not just for kids but for adults, too. You walk into a room and everyone is wearing a blue “I’m here for a reason” shirt and you might slowly back out of the room and go “I don’t belong.” Trying to be like everyone else is both the salve and the poison—it helps keep us save when we’re masking—what does everyone else is doing? It helps us mask, but David’s first time being a room where people admitted they were neurodivergent, Grady was bouncing a racket ball, the relief and joy you feel when you can join in being more authentically yourself. Isabelle is thinking of the “Cool Bean” book (see below) and how in that story, the beans are ‘cool’ not just because they are performing as cool and have style and whatnot, but also because they are willing to take risks and help those who are being bullied or laughed at, that are able to stand up for others and themselves in a way. This is so different than ‘coolness’ as Isabelle experienced it in her little bubble growing up in suburban Chicago, where coolness felt way more about avoiding being targeting and felt meaner and scarier and more about social power and wielding it (with meanness). Marcus names how his masking helped him in a way; he didn’t know if he could get away with getting into trouble so he would know how to appear wearing a collared shirt and combed hair and befriend his teachers so that he would get on their good side. David describes how with ‘coolness,’ it could be more about performing as if, rather than actually being it—like Marcus wasn’t actually friends with his teachers but he had the appearance of it, and how often we take those appearances of coolness and roll with it. Isabelle wonders—what about the privilege of masking? Like the way people who mask more easily and slot into neurotypical expectations have privileges and also—‘detecting’ what’s cool? And what about how much of coolness, at least for a time, was defined by money, or access to certain expensive clothing brands (like Abercrombie and Fitch) What it means to perform as if you are confident in who you are, 

Johnny Cash’s “Boy Named Sue” (live at San Quentin, 1969)

Cool Beans book (by Jory John) read aloud (by Harper Kids)

Smart Cookie (also by Jory John) read aloud (by Magical Little Minds) about learning differences/neurospicyness according to Isabelle

More on Marcus Soutra:
www.For the Good Consulting.com

Soutra is a dynamic, award-winning advocate, leader, and trailblazer in the field of neurodiversity (ND). An ND individual himself and former classroom teacher turned social entrepreneur, he co-founded and led Eye to Eye, scaling the organization’s impact on thousands of schools and individuals across the United States. A sought-after speaker, Soutra has delivered compelling talks on stages worldwide, from Harvard to Tokyo, has appeared in dozens of television broadcasts and podcasts,  and has been featured in leading publications including Forbes, The Hill, and Philanthropy Digest. In recognition of his transformative work, he received an honorary doctorate from his alma mater in the spring of 2024.

As the founder of For The Good Consulting, Soutra now supports organizations dedicated to driving systemic change for individuals furthest from opportunity. He resides in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife, an educator and learning specialist, where together they continue to advocate for a more equitable world for all students.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Isabelle and David continue to talk with David’s brother’s friend, Aaron, and dig deep into why winding down and going to sleep is the hardest transition of all: because you're staring into a black hole of no dopamine for hours! And also, a lot of traditional sleep hygiene tricks may not work. Folks with ADHD have higher rates of sleep apnea, among other sleep disorders, and also, can do with staying away from preferred activities before bed. This, sleep tips and tricks, and recognizing the value of being open about your neurodivergence...as well as some really good callbacks to the previous two episodes (096 and 097) regarding "St. Elmo's Fire's" amazing theme song.

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Isabelle and Aaron wonder: what’s with this PDA business (persistent drive for autonomy/persistent demand avoidance)? David explains: It’s hard for us to connect a learned moment with an experience, it’s hard for us to take a moment we're learning now and take it into the future, and we're distractable. If we're in a place with any shame, guilt, or anxiety, distraction becomes highly reinforcing. We are highly reinforced by not paying attention to what we want to pay attention to it. We're not seeing the long term consequence, we don’t understand what we're doing to our future by not doing it in this moment--delay of gratification and response cost. Like, what did you do today? “I watched three seasons of Scrubs and ate a buffet of Indian food.” We can't claim any wins at the end of the day, but in the moment it felt so nice, it was a distraction. Neurologically we don't get a success, norepinephrine —you feel anxious, and it leads into their evening, and for kids and adults, if you're really anxious about the next day, you don't want to go to sleep. “The longer I'm up today, the longer today is! I don't have to face tomorrow if I haven't gone to bed yet.” David has been thinking about this with his friend and colleague Noah, based on this book, Dopamine Nation. If we’re not accommodated or assisted by something during a transition, and then you have nothing else to do, you are looking down a long dark hole of no dopamine—that’s why the evening can look so hard. The road to sleep to extra awful, you have to sit still, you have to tolerate frustration and still yourself enough to go to sleep. David names: we are considered overtired if it takes less than 15 minutes to fall alseep—most ADHD folks, as an accommodation to not sit in the discomfort of staying still with no dopamine, don’t hit the bed until they are beyond exhausted and just crash. Isabelle and Aaron disbelieve this. Isabelle does not compute that this is how people live, that people just lay there for 8, 10, 15 minutes and slowly go to sleep, this has never happened to her. Aaron gets anxious that he won't fall asleep in 5 minutes and then can't stand the guided meditation.  David will be snoring watching tv on the couch with his partner but doesn’t confirm he is “tired." with Delayed sleep phase onset, this is a thing we struggle with. Accommodations for sleep? Did you use enough physical energy during the day? You can't go into a preferred activity before bed—you have to find weird shows or things that are interesting but not so interesting it will keep you awake. What is a preferred activity? If you're super into a video game, for example—if you can't sleep, don't play the video game. The things that you prefer and wake you up, engage your hyperfocus. What's the boring video game that’s like paint by numbers? Isabelle will read nonfiction when she’s not feeling very tired, but if she reads compelling fiction she will stay awake. Because, who wants to sit in boredom? These are tips that are not sleep hygiene or what you’d expect. So many tactics to help a kid fall asleep are there to help them get bored enough to stay still and not reach for a preferred activity. The most important task in the brain's development is boredom: One of the most important things is to experience boredom. It's really important and yet we run from it all the time. A neurotypicaly person needs to encounter a certain amount of boredom to get creative. But with ADHD, we are bored a 1000's of times more often in a day than a neurotypical does in a day, and the feeling of being bored is so caustic and our brain is so creative and thinking of fun things all the time. But because we encounter so many micromoments of boredom, it makes it really hard to tolerate the 10 or 15 minutes to fall asleep. Or try something on in the store. The moment of a transition that's boredom and hurts. When do we want to sit with it, when do you want to avoid it? David tries to stop listening to a D&D podcast he wants to, he's trying to train himself to be awake still and do it at a time and then fall asleep, instead of falling asleep when he crashes. AND there are literal sleep disturbances. People with ADHD have a much higher likelihood of getting a CPAP machine and sleep apnea, cause our physical necks are bigger (what?!). We have to think of social conventions made to busy people as problematic: are you folding your underwear because you're worried about them wrinkling? So many clothes are not wrinkling! Clean your clothes, but don't think you're failing at life if you're not folding laundry. Aaron requests more on sleep, and refers to an older episode by name "I'm not tired, you're tired!” David wonders: what would a Aaron tell his younger self if he had a 20 second time machine. He’d like to tell himself: “be brave, it's hard, it gets better. And look into ADHD earlier." The whole sequence of anxiety he’s had to deal with has been altered by knowing about ADHD and being medicated. It's not just the medicine, it's finally having a reason for how his interior life is the way he is. If there’s no reason, it's just your fault—why is Aaron a slob in his private places? It's not a character defect. But some people with ADHD are clean and tidy! Isabelle is one of these people—she just got a label maker and has been labeling her cabinets and pantry with things but then putting exclamation points at the end, so it says things like “BEANS!” “PASTA!” Referring back to Ep097, David names that Isabelle is a promoter: of pantry staples. But for Isabelle, she doesn't mind if others are making messes, she just needs things to be in order because otherwise they will move on her, it's a way to accommodate her working memory and find things again later. There isn't a right way to fit into this culture,. There's parts of ADHD culture—and theory of group dynamics, that says that people within a group have more things different between each other than they do with those outside of the group: ADHD is no different. Like medically: with depression, you can sleep not at all, or sleep a lot: these are opposite things and yet they all fall under the same diagnosis. Some things we can all relate to, like the way that we are hurt by our own integrity (not doing what we wanted or said we would do), our celebration and glee at remembering to do or finally doing the boring thing! Recognizing you have ADHD is a bit like parts of you being seen before, and suddenly all these associated pains --you don't know why you can't do what you want to do, and it has be to you. Aaron ties that back to his calvinist upbringing: “I wanted to do this, why did I forget?" It's the internal monologue we have to chance. There are parts of us that in a wheelchair and we keep coming at stairs. Isabelle references “I wanna to be a man in motion? All I need is this pair of wheels. Take me where the eagle's fly: St. Elmo's Fire."  ...

Isabelle and David continue to talk with David’s brother’s friend, Aaron, and contemplate why folks with ADHD can be so enthusiastic and excited about interests, people, etc. Is it because we are like puppies who are starved for reinforcement (dopamine)? Or does it come from living a life on the outside and the joy of connection when it has been missed for so long. With callbacks to Greatest American Hero (See Ep095) as well as the real story behind the theme song to St. Elmo's Fire.

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David describes how borrowing from LeDerick Horne and his brilliant theory around leadership, that folks in leadership can have a number of qualities, including being promoters. Folks with ADHD can be natural promoters, and being a promoter is actually a form of leading others. With the caveat that we must be into what we promote. And how excited we are about people and how we talk people up. David names that perhaps this has something to do with how we are starving (for dopamine) and intimacy and connection and relatedness can help us fill that void, we reach for the connection and get excited. Isabelle wonders if this relates to an autism(ASD)-style special interest, how she perpetually is excited and has a working principle that everyone could find common ground if we just found a shared hobby or special interest. David likes to tell people on airplanes that he's a car salesman so he can talk and listen to his heart’s content but he doesn’t have to focus on what he does. Isabelle names that even though David is not very savvy about cars, he could sell a car because he's such a natural salesperson. Isabelle names that anxiety around overselling things, she might encourage people to try new things, take new risks, explore and play—but her working memory is so poor that she doesn't know if she oversold, she has to refer to notes or something as reference. David loved serving as fun because there was a high degree of risk and failing so it helped me remember things. David names that we are not starving puppies with watery eyes, but we are highly susceptible to be reinforced, so when we see someone else’s tail wagging, it shoots up our levels of dopamine, we are highly reinforced. The establishing operation—social connection and social mastery is water for us, like the water-deprived rats being reinforced in Skinner boxes. The environment makes Isabelle’s puppy quality feel safe or good or not; and can lead to her feeling starved of that connection and reinforcement. The feeling when you have no one wagging their tail back at you—how many mistakes we do make, how many social gaffs and miscues, and big ones. It's almost like we find ourselves so marginalized, its like finding a prison gang when we find people who get us. What does it do to your sense of self when you can't do what you want with your morning—how that deflates your sense of self. Isabelle feels like she shares a bond with the other parents and caregivers that are always running late—it flares up imposter syndrome and “if you only saw me five minutes ago." David reframes this as "if only you saw what it took me to get here and I made it!" Aaron is a master of social engineering, even though he's almost always good at it and social interaction, he remains scared the whole time. The anxiety hits because if it doesn't work out, he takes the hits hard: he can take a lot of them, but they hit hard. David shares one of his hits—he was spending a lot of money for grad school, wanting to read all the books for all his classes, he was going to learn it all...but he didn't do any of the readings for one of his classes. The class was talking about this person out loud, “Ed Nafoah” — he was like "what is this Nafoah guy talking about ?” and everyone in class is like “Edna? Her name is Edna Foa.” It took five to ten minutes for David to feel the cabin pressure returning and the lights to come up and to return to his body. Aaron points out that his impulsivity could carry him through it—David had a ballast and in grad school and they were talking about different psychosocial backgrounds, step or two based on privilege. The professor holds up a dollar and says "the first person to…can have this dollar?” He’s never seen someone authorized like that. Aaron sings the theme song from “The Greatest American Hero” which we all know, and the superhero suit is David’s impulsivity. 

Who is Edna Foa?

Greatest American Hero trailer (he is LITERALLY "walking on air")

Story behind St. Elmo’s Fire theme song, "Man in Motion" 

• here's the music video and the song 
• A quick synopsis of the backstory behind the song (Source: Wikipedia)
• And an interview with the songwriter/singer, John Parr, discussing how he came up with the idea and how he snuck it in to be the theme song for this 1980’s Brat Pack Extravaganza. 

For more about our guest:
Aaron Michael Ullrey (he/him)
Writing and Editing Specialist, Editor in Chief
Research Associate, Transcendence and Transformation
Center for the Study of World Religion (CSWR) at Harvard Divinity School

Instructor of Religious Studies

The University of Houston

Instructor of Sanskrit Language

University of Naropa 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Isabelle and David welcome David’s brother’s friend, Aaron, who, as a recently diagnosed ADHDer, brings up the idea of if ADHD is a superpower, it's like the super suit in “Greatest American Hero:” a suit given with a manual that got lost on the first day of use. What happens when you find your ‘ingredient’ for doing the things you previously struggled with and now can do? How does your self esteem and sense of self efficacy impact how you handle days when that ingredient is missing? This plus being puppy dogs together, tackling Mt. Laundry, and why intimacy beats contempt.

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David and Isabelle welcome Aaron, a longtime friend of David’s brother, who was recently diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. In thinking about ADHD, he thinks about this show from the 1970’s, “Greatest American Hero,” where this teacher is given a superpower suit by some aliens, who also give him a manual for the suit, and he loses it on the first day, so he goes around saving people but also is seeking this manual and he always gives it up to save someone. He resonated with this character so much, and for Aaron, medication made a huge difference—he is able to wake up and do the thing and then he is able to do. He’s been medicated for anxiety and depression his whole life and taking medication for ADHD doesn’t make those go away, but it helps him be the person he always wanted to be. Isabelle so resonates with the suit metaphor and how she and Bobby attempted to make their home more ADHD friendly (see “Keeping House While Drowning” and all the ADHD friendly home tips below!) And she forgot her medication and instead of spiraling into anxiety, when she realized why she stalled out all day, she was able to recognize it was “oh, I was missing my ingredient.”  David points out that it’s not just medication, because medication is not for everyone, it can be so many things, once we find out what the ingredient is—working out in the morning, the coffee routine, whatever it might be--when you all of a sudden miss it, you can pinpoint it and recover. Even more so, Aaron describes how it is a conscious habit, as a child of the 80’s, he is not about the idea of 'working on his self-esteem,’ but realizes through therapy and his conversations with David that it keeps coming up for a reason, there are wounds there that do shift when you are able to do some of the things you previously struggled with. David can recognize those nasty voices in our heads, the angry voice as a teenager to get himself to do things. Based on his arbitrary math, while it takes 6 weeks to build a neurological bridge, it takes 6 years to build a habit. He chose to make excitement that it will be over the habit over the anger over having to do it. Whether it’s medication or nervousness or anxiety, David recognizes that something has to stimulate him so he has to choose his path and practice it. Aaron remembers his psychologist friend Dave 20 years ago sharing the 3 paths to happiness (he was studying at the time)—the first is excitement, the second is contempt (at least temporarily), and the third is intimacy. Aaron is excitable and comes from a contemptuous family and wants to focus on intimacy. This makes Isabelle make awkward spiders with her hands, the idea of gossiping and spreading shame makes you feel reassured and safe but also brings with it a threat and temporary condition; for Isabelle, intimacy means playfulness, curiosity, a willingness to see what happens next, and as David defines it: a shared vulnerability. Aaron ordered up BRAIN STUFF, and sadly David has no links, so Isabelle tries to fill it by talking about studies that connect to how we associate the negative talk about someone with the gossiper, not the subject of the gossip. David names that he does think ADHD is a superpower with a missing manual, and the tricky part is let’s say we’re talking unbridled enthusiasm: it’s a superpower and contagious and also has an effect on the recipient. David names being okay with someone not wanting to be the recipient at this current moment. 

THE THINGS WE MENTIONED:

• Greatest American Hero Opening Credits (Worth it to finally see where this song comes from and for the flying haphazardly imagery)
• How to Keep House While Drowning by KC Davis
• So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed by Jon Ronson
• "Punishing or praising gossipers: How people interpret the motives behind negative gossip shapes its consequences" (source: Social and Personality Psychology Compass)

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Does ADHD make you an overly optimistic puppy dog? Or the sprinkle of trickster magic in someone else's day? And is there really a "better" way to be, optimistic or pessimistic? From David being a prophetic hot dog vendor at Wrigley Field, to trickster archetypes, to the differences between vulnerable in the process of something or being vulnerable at the end, Isabelle and David dig into a totally unique way to consider optimism and pessimism as adaptive. 

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Once upon a time, David sold hot dogs at Wrigley Field, yelling out “here’s your hot dogs!” To do that, he talked differently, throwing the accent in so thick. This was during the McGuire/Sosa run streak, and he would say “Sammy’s going to hit a home run to you in the 7th” and he had a 50% chance of being right and he made it a great time for those kids. This makes Isabelle think of Tricia Hersey, the Nap Minister, who has done all this work on systemic racism and the Black American experience, and rest as resistance or a form of activism. She also is talking about lot about trickster energy. Isabelle thinks about this in the form of ableism, how she talks and writes about trickster energy, and making magic in something that feels subversive and is part of the time as well as not a part of the time. Like David is performing the role of the hot dog vendor, but then because he predicts the ‘future’ to the kid, he adds a twist to it and he becomes a full human, like more than a role. Isabelle’s shortcuts often fall around domestic labor. David likes how it elevates the hot dog vendor to more than an NPC—after the game, if he predicted it was right, reclaims that he was actually a main character. But also it was greater than what David was doing. Isabelle notices that this lines up with a neurodivergent strength with ADHD, the going on tangents, the divergent tangents. Isabelle names that recently things have been really tough personally and professionally, and yet she has this relentless optimism; Isabelle can’t help but bring in the playful energy. Is her optimism really about ADHD? David names that optimism is not about accuracy, it has to do with process. Optimism is: ‘it’s not a loss until it is,” and you can be miserable for 3 weeks leading up to something or miserable for the one moment you feel the loss. But also, David warns, optimism can be dangerous when it comes to expectations. If you expect a piece of (astronaut) ice cream when you get home every day, it is a set up when you get upset you didn’t get the astronaut ice cream. Optimism is radically accepting that we haven’t lost until we have. In one hour we can feel sad, but right now, we can still win. For David it’s how he can sit with his nervous system, it’s changing the meaning of “in process.” Isabelle really likes this, as she is relentlessly optimistic. If she is more willing to take risks, if she doesn’t have a big response cost, she doesn’t have a great estimation of how hard or long something is going to be, a poor working memory, and it would track that overall she would get smacked in the face by a 2 x 4 and then wake up the next day and forget it ever happened. She doesn’t remember the fails until she's failing again, and anything is possible until it isn’t, or she remembers the fails but this time, it could be different. And, is part of that really a choice she’s making or is it just a shortcut, a mental shortcut—you could call it optimism that she always leaves the house not accounting for traffic because she believes in parking magic. It would be way harder for her to keep all the possibilities in mind. David asks: are you forgetting to account for traffic? That’s executive functioning stuff. Or are you optimistic about there being no traffic? If you’re leaving late thinking you’re going to get a good parking spot, the memory deficit reinforces this perspective. But isn’t it easier to live with miracles and magic and not borrowing trouble? You’re not ruining your present moment by fretting about something that hasn’t happened yet. But if Isabelle could have accounted for her executive functioning maybe she could’ve avoided some thing. When we are struggling to pull out optimism in an area, we’re looking at areas of self-esteem. It’s really hard to be optimistic if you don’t have a sense of mastery in who you are and what you’re doing. You have to have a sense that you are enough or that you matter, you have to have some power or some say in a world. Survival mode, by necessity removes optimism, makes you pessimistic. When you’ve survived trauma, which is anything that overwhelms your sense of hope, what devalued or dehumanized you or left you feeling out of control, and it was something that Isabelle was internalizing something was the worst. Back in the day, in older versions of the DSM, included in PTSD was the idea of a ‘foreshortened future,” there’s not way she could survive or make it through another developmental state. When you’re in survival mode, you think you’re getting all the important data, black and white, like an old news reel, you think you’re getting all the information, but you’re getting very little data, which can be both helpful and hurtful. Does optimism indicate the opposite of the trauma response? Is it an indicator you're not in the survival mode? But David names: optimism is not a better, pessimism is not a worse—both are accommodations and have their uses. Maybe you’re more vulnerable in process, and less vulnerable at the end, so being optimistic is an adaptation for you. For someone else who is more vulnerable at the end and less vulnerable in process, being pessimistic would be an adaptation. We surrender parts of ourselves when we try to be somebody else, and David is a proponent of humanism, that humans as a whole make sense, and we’re doing our best. He’s not interested in optimism being used to invalidate pessimism or pessimism being used to invalidate optimism. 

NPC - Non-Playable or Non-Player Character: a term from gaming that refers to characters that cannot be played by the person playing the game. (Source: wikipedia).

Nap Minister, Tricia Hersey and her book, Rest is Resistance

Trickster Archetype: (from Wikipedia): "a character in a story who exhibits a great degree of intellect or secret knowledge and uses it to play tricks or otherwise disobey normal rules and defy conventional behavior." Examples Isabelle mentioned include: Loki (norse mythology and the Marvel Universe), Anansi (Ashanti folklore)

ADHD's links to optimism:

• The Positive Aspects of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A Qualitative Investigation of Successful Adults with ADHD (Source: ADHD Springer Journal)
• Incautiously Optimistic: Positively Valenced Cognitive Avoidance in Adult ADHD (Source: NIH/Cogn. Beh. Pract.)
• Positive Illusory Bias (PIB) related to ADHD in kids and parents (source: University of British Columbia)

How do you make your time off the most efficiently relaxing? Or unlock a peak game night or other family time experience? And why are we so hell bent on intensity of experience, versus frequency? David and Isabelle straddle talk of perfectionism, their own relationships to building time-off experiences, and how frequency is our friend, as well as the idea that perfectionism is not a dirty word, but perhaps relates to masking, needs for structure and predictability in neurodivergence.

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Isabelle describes how her and Bobby would take time away just the two of them, and realized how time would move so differently, especially if they just let themselves hang out and not put extra pressure on the time off. David names that we focus so much on intensity of experiences (for Isabelle’s family, the most intense all-inclusive Disney trip EVER!) versus frequency, when actually, you need more frequent interactions in order to have a template for how to be with each other. So maybe we do more time off or together time—more often, and lower the bar for what we have to do in that time? Isabelle struggles with this, however, in how she tackles family game nights, as family dinner might be something of a challenge for folks (let’s not assume all families are functional and you want to spend time with each other, either). She goes to great lengths to set it up, get the snacks, the music, the setting…and she always wants to make it 2% better, but it often backfires or doesn’t match up to any expectations. This brings her to her new hyper fixation, on perfectionism (see book she names, below). She describes how there’s a type of perfectionist that seeks to have every part of a process go well, and if one part goes wrong, they throw it all away. This relates for her to being so in the present moment and struggling with what happened just before or just after, so she wants to nail each part of a get together. David does not relate to this, it brings up the fact he knows nothing can be perfect and in fact, he felt so ‘not enough’ for much of his life, that he does not carry this. Isabelle describes how there’s this type of perfectionism where you work really hard but you try to appear effortless (effortlessly styled, cool, fit, etc.) and David names how he wants to unlock peak experiences with minimal effort. Isabelle and David get into a debate about whether or not David might be a type of perfectionist, if you think of perfectionism as ambitions or goals or striving toward and ideal, and Isabelle’s own journey exploring if she has autism, makes her think that maybe this is how she uses scripts in social settings, like she knows what her role is and what is expected of her and she wants to do it well. David names that if he puts great effort into it, then it doesn’t count, except when he’s making “D’s Nuts,” a holiday spiced nut roasted sugared nut blend that blows minds in little mason jars every year. Isabelle finally gets what David means; he’s going for peak efficiency, like he puts in no effort, and it’s a HUGE win for the person. With D’s nuts, it’s extremely labor intensive and he’s proud of it. Isabelle likes to give people shortcuts, like discount codes and bargains and feels so seen when David names he has benefited from her use of this many a time. 

The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schafler

Types of perfectionists (per the book above, taken from Medium summary article)

• Classic perfectionist — They attempt to control essentially everything. This is the type we’re all thinking of. They like structure and consistency. They tend to hold themselves to extremely high standards and are overachievers.
• Parisian perfectionist — This type wants to be perfectly liked by everyone in an effortless way. They have a sense of ideal connection and tend to be people pleasing to bridge that gap.
• Procrastinating perfectionist — These folks want the conditions to be ideal before they get started on a project. They have an ideal notion of how something might go, and are afraid of having it ruined with the reality of actually getting started.
• Messy perfectionist — This doesn’t mean physically messy. What it means is that these folks have a hard time following through once a project has gotten underway. They believe that they can focus on multiple things without having to give anything up, but frequently don’t finish what they started and have multiple projects in various states of completion at any given time.
• Intense perfectionist — These people can be extremely demanding of others. Think the boss that is exacting and keeps you at the office late. They have an ideal outcome or vision and are willing to be extremely unlikable in order to bring it to fruition.

David makes “D’s nuts.” For those not familiar with Chicago accents, here’s an old SNL sketch that makes big use of this.

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Just in time for the mounting stress at the end of the year, here’s an ADHD-friendly gift-giving guide! David and Isabelle have ideas, accommodations, and acceptance around giving and receiving gifts with neurodivergent folx. How hard it is to buy things for folx who impulsively purchase all (cheaper) things for themselves? How to tackle the mystery of huge shopping carts and no good memory if you bought the thing after all, or not? What to get your brilliant neurodivergent child (psss…it’s the experience, not the shiny thing!)? And MORE!
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Aside from discussing how Isabelle has a cold and David thinks they could be like Voltron, David describes how he only buys things he can touch or get a use out of: dopamine will make you think something that looks shiny and cool (like a skin in a video game) is the thing to buy, but then the rush fades and your left without something useful. Dopamine releases around the potential of awesomeness, not actually the awesomeness. Think about how quickly something Isabelle gets hooked into having loaded shopping carts at various websites, especially around gift giving—she’ll spend two hours hyper focusing on what to get and getting it, but when it comes time to buying something, she freezes and forgets to buy it and then doesn’t remember if she bought it or not. David points out this is the inattentive part: the difficulty of making the choice. You also then log a memory of the check out screen (but not if you actually bought the thing or not). The shopping cart loading is externalizing your memory, using an accommodation to assist with working memory as you find things that might be potential gifts for people. David makes a point around buying something with a use case, even more so than quality of experience: can you specifically use it for something? Does it do something other than just sit there? Sometimes we don’t want to use something up (like candles) because it feels too precious to use them. David names that he gets overwhelmed with too much stuff: he wants it all, but he doesn’t want it all. For example, at a birthday when he got all five video games he wanted, when we get all that we want, all at once, we don’t actually want it all. Give him five video games, but give him one each throughout several months. What if you could rotate toys (Isabelle calls this toy store with her kids) and wishes she could do this with herself. They hit upon that subscription boxes as a cool solution. David names as that someone who is impulsive, there is nothing he wants under $20 he hasn’t bought for himself. If you’re debating getting the expensive thing but caught with decision paralysis, average out how much the thing costs per use (for example, a coffee machine ends up being $1 per cup of coffee for a whole year) and then decide if it’s worth the 5% boost in your day. David names finding the win for yourself: finding the win/lose condition and setting yourself up for a win. That includes receiving gifts: make it simple for your gift givers! You like bunnies? Get bunnies. Set up your givers for a win. Isabelle describes loving to browse a store, but hating to have to make a buying decision, while David thinks of the gift that someone would be embarrassed to buy for themselves but could not reject (without it being silly, such as a 15 lb. Bag of gummy bears). Both inattentive and impulsive types of ADHD lead to self-doubt, but it’s how many times we touch that doubt: for inattentive type, it’s a lot before buying something. For impulsive type, it’s huge the moment you hand the gift over and wonder if you haven’t made a mistake. Isabelle ponders a giant sized Toblerone, David recalls how disconcerting holding a huge gummy bear actually was. For kids, consider the experience of going to the store and getting to impulsively choose the thing they want for themselves. Preserve the magic of the buy: the parent/guardian/gift giver has zero interest in how great the gift is: if they have buyer’s remorse, that’s learning, it’s important, not a failed gift. 

What is Voltron? I mean, the logo alone… 

Quick visual searches (not endorsing any particular brand, just for reference):
Giant Gummy Bear
Giant Toblerone  

DAVID’S DEFINITIONS 

Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD), where you interpret feedback or questions or redirections as being very harsh and personal, and then really take it to heart—even if that’s not really what is being communicated to you. Can be present a lot with folx with ADHD.

Use case: Does a thing do something other than just sit there? There is a case for how you’d use it.

Thoughts on gift giving

• Dopamine releases around the potential of awesomeness, not the actual awesomeness. 
• Make it a win/lose, and set yourself up for a win, and those giving you gifts for a win: pick something you 
• Harness your impulsivity: follow your first instinct. Be outrageous.
• Don’t expect doubt to go away: there’s a chaotic variable in giving in a gift, a novel way the person could react.
• Think about things that people maybe would never buy for themselves but they would not reject (run the scenario, pretend you’re mad at the gift you just gave)—for example, two 15 lb. Bags of gummy bears. It’d be silly for someone to reject it and it’d make a funny story if they do.
• Advice for kids: create a day to go to the store with the kid so they can pick out what they impulsively want that day. Give them the power to choose. Predetermine budget or safety issues, but otherwise, no micromanaging. Even with buyer’s remorse, there’s a lesson and it’s okay. 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

How do you survive holiday travel with ADHD? What about traveling with children, particularly small children? And what happens when you find yourself rushing, leaving things until the last minute, and forgetting your charger once again? David and Isabelle swap stories and share specific tips to traveling and also discuss WHY ARE THERE SOCK NUBBINS AND TAGS. Seriously.
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There can be so much pressure to have a Hallmark, picture-postcard perfect holiday and it’s so important to revise those expectations and think about what you actually want to do, for example, maybe it’s “we go to the this house, tolerate everyone for 45 minutes, you grab the turkey, I grab the mashed potatoes, and we leave.” And what about the uncomfortable holiday clothes? Isabelle laughs and mentions a brilliant SNL fake ad for Macy’s that’s all about children’s clothing and how uncomfortable it is. David describes this might be where task meets emotionality (for definition, see below)—is the task of the holidays spending time with family? David remembers the holidays being hard, everyone fighting on the way there and then fine when they got home, and wearing uncomfortable clothes, and just wanting to leave and it being awful. Isabelle remembers coming home so late and it was freezing and trying to sleep in the back seat, freezing. David had the experience going to his partner’s holiday celebrations and—they don’t have ADHD—everyone got along, hung out, sang songs, played piano—and this is real? Friendsgiving is a thing, and you can make choices, what you do for holidays is a choice: like winter is a choice. Anytime you feel trapped or caught in something, changing the language to “I’m choosing to do blank because blank…” with what needs your meeting with it, changes it from you “have to go see Meemaw” You can take the shoulds, musts, and have-to and change it to choices. And maybe Meemaw doesn’t care what you wear, she just wants to see you. WHY ARE THERE TAGS IN CLOTHING? And NUBBINS ON SOCKS? We have evolved so many incredible things, we have AI, we have genome sequencing, and we have sock nubbins, and who invented pantyhose and shapewear. David likes shape wear because the underarmour stuff he wears is nice and tight. Isabelle describes that it’s more designed to smush you in and sometimes it’s great—this is maybe Isabelle’s trauma after being a 6 ft woman at 14 year old, so she was fitting into shape wear and pantyhose as a kid and hated it so much and it was so uncomfortable. David always got all these hand-me-down socks that were in a constant state of yawn—now David gets the really tight socks that stay up all day, “look at you sock, staying up all day!” And transitioning back to travel—and sometimes travel is really hard because we’re pushing ourselves harder than we should. Having the toolbox is just as important on the airplane or airport, or knowing how long you’re waiting with a toolbox. Whoever’s doing the traveling, your self care is the most important: you can’t control your kids being miserable, they will be, you have to put your oxygen mask, go at your pace, go at your tolerance. Kids will fall apart. You need to be there for them when they do. So what do you need to be there for them? Maybe it’s a treat, maybe it’s slowing down—take care of you. Pack the day before. And always include an extra day back at home before transitioning back. You can change the day back—the end is always going to be the end of the vacation, but you being able to have a different re-entry ritual into your day to day can be game changing. Isabelle shares some tips from her own front line experiences, such as when driving from Indianapolis from Nashville as part of moving, when she forgot the iPad…and everything else, and her kid was stuck in the way back for hours bored out of their mind. Needless to say, iPads are last steps, so it’s a plan B, but it forces them to have lots of plan A—and on this trip, she forgot all the plan B’s and A’s. And everyone is going to have a meltdown—Isabelle, as mom, will also have a breakdown. It doesn’t matter how prepared you are, travel will break you at some point. Travel with kids is courting brilliant memories of chaos, so she anticipates and plans on her having a breakdown. So she tells herself that “I’m a good mom who’s reached her limit.” You’re trained from babyhood to meet their needs all the time, but it’s a set up, the game is rigged, and part of the rigging is us thinking we’re never going to lose it ourselves. Maybe it’s the rule, not the exception. What about outsourcing, like checking your bags curbside, strapping your kid into the carseat on the plane (because they’re used to it and airplane seatbelts do nothing). Be kind to yourself. There’s also this idea that a vacation and a trip with kids are two separate things. The labor does not change, but increases, but the expectation for fun and frivolity is also increased, but maybe change the expectations inside. Also okay if it’s extra hard because it actually really is. Take the wins. David names that it’s very hard to hold dialectics, to opposing truths: you can love your kids and they can be too much, really hard, really frustrating. You need to find yourself a support group that can validate all the truths. For David, being a child who had ADHD, and seeing people with kids travel, and typically things feel better when there isn’t as much pressure, when you’re not rushing at the last minute, and have everything you need. Accepting that all of those things are going to be harder with ADHD and smiling when those things don't happen is the key. Accept that win, when you actually remember the charger. We can also flip the shame spiral into gratitude because you can maybe get the thing when you arrive, and David has needed to buy pretty much everything on arrival. Anything important, the things you can’t live without, phone stuff, medication, certain items, should be carry-ons. If ever possible, don’t check a bag, have a very compacted carry on. 

SNL Fake Macy’s commercial for children’s uncomfortable clothing

DAVID'S DEFINITIONS

TASK V. EMOTIONALITY

• Task: what you’re trying to do - the ‘work’ of a group or a person. 
  • for example: I am finishing my project this weekend.
• Emotionality: what you do to prepare to do a task - beliefs/fears/assumptions about what you’re doing
  • for example: I’m doing it wrong/right, I always procrastinate, big fear you’ll never get it done, dream that someone will come and save you from having to do it, etc. 

Traveling survival tips

• Prep your go-bag, tool kit (and consider several plans, not just one, like the ipad, because batteries die)
• Kids will fall apart. They will fall apart when they travel. Be there when they do. What do you need to do to be there for them? Go at your pace. Pick up a treat. Do things to make it easier on you. 
• Get ready to leave the night before. Have things packed. 
• Plan to have a day off once you return. The last day of vacation will always suck, but you can make your return to your day to day so much better.
• Plan on your own breakdown. You’re a good parent/partner and you can reach a limit. It’s the rule, not the exception with travel.

How do you survive family dinners? Sitting at a table until everyone is done? Overstimulation? Sticky conversations and setting boundaries?  David and Isabelle talk concrete tips for getting through family dinners, and even enjoying them—and the truth behind ear worm songs’ lyrics that may pop your Thanksgiving Day Parade Spiderman balloons.
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David and Isabelle name that any time you’re meeting with family, traveling, disrupting routine, and then you throw in kids—how do we do this? Let’s start with dinner, and then work our way back to how you get there. Whenever you’re going out to eat with family…family is a tricky word. Family describes ritual—people who get together at different times, don’t have to be related. Whoever is in your network, where you go. Kids really need help knowing the story behind people, understanding the story behind Uncle Jack and Aunt Sue—it can help create connecting moments by throwing in novelty. Kids can be really honest and if it’s boring, they may ask: “Why are you boring?” Also, we love Aunt Sue. Partners might use this, too, not just kids. Let alone how family stuff can be so loaded, you may not want to share the same room with some people, there can be anxiety, and anticipatory dread. Part when you’re going to go visit v. hosting—how do we cope with the different layers of anxiety. With a heavier family situation—bring the toolbox, especially with kids. Before you leave, have a backpack, help your child pick toys (even if they’re 14), headphones, and talk about where you can use your phone or play games. What about the interesting power struggle of having kids sit at the table until everyone is finished eating—let’s think about that differently, because sitting for that long is so hard for kids, and adults, with ADHD—and why is hosting so FUN, because you’re always translating your restlessness into effective hosting. Most people with ADHD fall into really good host and amazing networker, and we can also know how to help people feel connected and welcome because we know how hard it can be to be isolated. Take breaks with your child. Be honest about how long it’s going to be (like 3.5 hours, not "just 15 more minutes"), and be realistic about what battles you’re going to pick with your child.  Sometimes when we think about social norms we’re trying to show and build the frustration tolerance in our children—we place such a load and raise the stakes so much for the holidays, and we forget that that is a set up with kids. The more you raise the expectations and raise the stakes, the more it’s asking for disaster. For the parents who feel that pressure, judgment, and family rules—really hard to have an unreasonable expectations and have them passed on. Can be helped to know that expectations are resentments waiting to happen—and let the table know the expectation we’re actually dealing with (eg. We’re trying to help kid finish food, as opposed to sit quietly for an hour). Have a wonderful moment with your family, knowing that the most unconventional moments are the memory makers. Also can be really overstimulating, and have a plan for what to do then ahead of time, and how to manage that. How do we recognize we are overstimulated? Isabelle went to Costco and only realized 3 hours later how she was overstimulated. We’re all going to feel things differently, but certain things will always be overstimulating: loud noise (increases heart rate) and triggers your fear response. Think about that moment you left a loud concert or house party and that moment when you walk into the cold night air and then you take a breath—knowing that we’re overstimulated is really hard to notice (want to work on with a therapist or close friend)—we can tolerate the heat getting turned up really high and we don’t notice it until it’s at a certain point. David knows he’s overstimulated when he’s worried about breaking things or bumping into people. When Isabelle starts to feel she’s obstacle coursing it, that’s when she’s overstimulated. Sometimes being overstimulated is really good, or really bad—it’s not necessarily one thing or another: it's what’s appropriate for the moment. David will sometimes look at his partner where she’s like “we don’t have time for that.” Getting signs and knowing these things, like with your kid—“I noticed that you were walking around with your hands balled up”—“can I check in on you at Meemaw’s house when you’re hands are clenched, maybe we can go on a walk with me?” Walks are important intervention: changes environment, smells open up, visual stimulation, movement. Or have a place in Dodge—a weighted blanket in the basement, watch a couple of TikTok’s. Isabelle describes the giant mega Christmas party they’d attend that included all these pockets of peace and respite—like smoke breaks (side note: folx with ADHD being drawn to the stimulant with nicotine, but also the habit of taking breaks with a few different people). How valuable it might be not only notice your kid’s cues and give them prompting, but also how it might feel for your kid “I’m getting overstimulated, you know I notice my jaw is tight, and I feel like I’m going to bump into things a lot, I need to go for a walk, want to come with me?” We want to make “Calm Down!” not a swear word. It’s usually the opposite effect—we’re often not saying this to ourselves, we’re telling other people to do it. Do it with a partner, the more premeditated it is—you can be predictable and take a break. Boundaries are not personal, even though they almost always feel that way. David uses the example of the briefcase where he keeps his notes—if he saw anyone going near it, he’d freak out, because it has to do with his boundary around client confidentiality, but it’s not about who is doing it (whether it’s a stranger or a partner). You can set the boundary just by changing the subject. We take boundaries personally, we also think boundaries are about what we’re asking the other person to do, when actually—(pause for effect)—the boundary is what you’re going to do. For example, Isabelle will find herself being asked for therapeutic advice at family functions, but the boundary when she doesn’t want someone to talk about the thing, but it’s the moment she changes the subject, walks away, etc. it’s the moment where I actually set the boundary for myself. It’s not about getting the person to stop talking, it’s giving them something to chew on, like a sandwich, so they can’t talk about it. And another caveat: as inveterate people pleaser, Isabelle’s discomfort shoots up, and it doesn’t feel better to her to set a boundary, but it’s a short term huge burst of discomfort that she’s trading for a long haul sense of self-betrayal, or being worn down, or all the bigger consequences that come from not having a boundary. You tend to have to set boundaries again and again, and it rarely gets easier, you just get more well versed at how you do it. This reminds David of putting on sunscreen—it’s so gross, he hates the greasy stuff, but it’s better than getting the sunburn. The boundary setting can be announced or not announced. And one of the powers of ADHD: engage ADHD distraction mode when someone starts talking about something you’re not about. Like do Delorians need special garages so the doors would still open? Like moths to a flame, we might pay more attention to someone when you’re annoying you, or you’re preparing to debate them. David’s method is singing George of the Jungle to get rid of the earworm. Isabelle thinks about the muzak track in the elevator of your brain, and her’s, since childhood, has b...