A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee speaks with spouses of detained refugees. We hear about the similarities and challenges of Hmong and Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugees. We also speak with Asian Law Caucus’ Aisa Villarosa about the ongoing campaigns for freedom that ALC has been leading along with a host of other community based organizations. Join us: November 3, 4pm Pacific time, 7pm Eastern Time, Join us for “We Belong Here, Bhutanese & Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness” a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. bit.ly/WBH-2025   TAKE ACTION Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang Mohan Karki’s GoFundMe   And please help support these organizations working to support detained and deported folx: Asian Law Caucus Asian Refugees United Ba Lo Project in Vietnam Collective Freedom in Vietnam & Laos Asian Prisoner Support Committee & New Light Wellness in Cambodia November 1–2, people nationwide are joining the Disappeared In America Weekend of Action to stand up for immigrant families and defend due process. Actions include protests at Home Depots, candlelight Freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events honoring lives lost to detention.     We Belong! Transcript Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express.This is your host, Miko Lee. Today we’re talking about detentions and potential deportations and the atrocities that the Trump administration is creating in our communities.We originally recorded this episode a month ago, and today is October 29th. 2025 and I have with me Aisa Villarosa a lawyer with Asian Law Caucus, giving us an update in the cases that we’re talking about. Welcome Aisa Apex Express. Aisa Villarosa: Thanks so much, Miko. Miko Lee: Tonight we’re gonna be talking with two spouses of detained folks. One is a Nepali speaking Bhutanese community member, and the other is Hmong community member. In the time since we recorded this, there has been a big update with Lue Young’s case, and I wonder if you could provide us with that update. Aisa Villarosa: Miko since we last spoke, due to some really hard fought campaigning, both behind the scenes and drawing upon allies across Michigan and really across the country. Lue Yang, received a successful pardon from Governor Gretchen Whitmer. We actually received word shortly before Lue Yang was set to be placed on a very large deportation flight. Once we got word of the pardon, it was off to the races for the legal team to quickly draft some emergency motions for Lue Yang and to realize the power of the pardon before the deportation. Miko Lee: Can we back up for a moment and give for an audience a sense of what that means? Lue Young was incarcerated at a detention facility, which Trump has called the FedEx of detention facilities in, Louisana, and explain to us what happened to him and the other members that were suddenly pulled together onto an airplane. Aisa Villarosa: When these removal flights happen, there’s so much confusion, there’s so much fear that families undergo, and often it’s due to the perseverance of the families that we honestly even know where folks are. Shortly before what we call final staging happens, someone is moved from, in Lue’s case, a facility in Michigan to a facility like Alexandria in Louisiana where the planes do take off  from. Families typically look up their loved one on something called the “ice detainee locator.” What’s challenging is when final staging starts. Often that person completely disappears from the detainee locator or information gets a bit scrambled. Because ICE has a bit of a sealed box as far as even telling families where, their loved one is. Families are either left to guess or rely on each other. So for Lue Yang and the pardon what is critical for folks to know is that as powerful, as rare as a pardon is, I can’t stress how extraordinary this is in these very difficult times. A pardon does not instantly, allow someone to say, walk out of an ice facility. There’s, numerous legal filings that need to happen. That is why , the team was so up against the clock. Miko Lee: So let’s break this down a little bit around a pardon. What does a pardon mean in our current system? Because as a lay person, you think, oh, they’re pardoned. That means they’re free and they can go home and be with their family. Tell us a little bit about what a pardon means in our legal system right now. Aisa Villarosa: A pardon is different from a criminal expungement, which folks might be familiar with. In Lue’s case, for example, when Lue was younger, he successfully expunged this record, in criminal court. The challenge is that immigration court, is basically the entity that issues something called a “final order of removal.” This document, is basically what powers deportation for folks. An expungement does not get at the final removal order. However, a pardon has that more direct link. The pardon has the weight of what we call “vacating a conviction.” To explain more legalese and hopefully folks can stay with me. A final order of removal is an immigration court order document where , it gives ice the power to do all these deportations We’re seeing for the refugee community that Lue Yang belongs to. Often these are quite old orders, and so sometimes a loved one might be detained and they might not even realize that they have a criminal conviction or a final order of removal. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for breaking that down. So we described how he was pulled off the plane that was going for his deportation. Tell us where Lue is at right now. What is happening with his case? Aisa Villarosa: The call to action very much remains what it has been, which is we’re calling to bring Lue home. At the moment, Lue is in a facility in Louisiana. Our hope is that Lue can return to Michigan. There is also a call to release Lue on a supervised release. The other component of the legal journey for Lue is something called a motion to reopen. Basically this is how the full weight of the pardon is realized. The motion to reopen calls on the Board of Immigration Appeals to reopen Lue’s case, because years ago he got that final removal order, so when someone gets that order, typically their immigration case is closed. This petition says, Hey, he got a pardon. Please reopen Lue’s case because the underlying conviction that led to the final removal order. Has been pardoned, right? We are hoping that this motion to reopen will be heard in front of the Board of Immigration Appeals, that we can get a great result and that as the campaign calls for that, Lue can come home. Miko Lee: I know lawyers like you are doing incredible work around the scenes. You did not sleep for two days, filing paperwork to be able to make sure that Lue was pulled off that plane. But what can regular people, what can our audience do to get involved right now? Aisa Villarosa: There’s myriad actions along this really terrible deportation pipeline. We’re seeing that folks who might not have, any deep knowledge of the immigration system can still be so impactful. We have partners in LA in the faith community and they’ve started working with community organizations to do things like accompaniment, which is, joining community members like Lue, who often have these ice check-ins. As folks have seen on the news, these check-ins can be really risky because that is where ice arrests can happen. If someone misses their ice check-in, typically that means that a warrant is issued, that immigration forces can come after you. In these cases, community members, particularly folks who are US citizens, accompaniment can be a great way to dig in to show up for our immigrant and refugee siblings. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for breaking down how folks can get involved. It’s so important right now in a time where we feel so utterly helpless to be able to make change. Now we’re gonna go back to listen to our interview that is with the two spouses, Tika, Basnet, and Ann Vue, and also our current guest, Aisa Villarosa Tika and Ann they’re part of a horrible club, which is both of their spouses are currently in detention from our immigration system. I just wanna start on a real personal note in a way that I often do with my guests. Anne, I just would love to hear from you, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Ann Vue: Thank you again, Miko and Isa, for having me on. We are Hmong. We helped Americans during the Vietnam War. In Laos, a lot of our pilots needed a communication. Because we’re indigenous and we are in the mountains they were able to speak with us and use us. Our Hmong, helped a lot of the pilots rescued a lot, like thousands and thousands of Americans, so that they can make it back home. That is our contribution to the American people. When we were brought to America, was to resettle because of humanitarian purpose. Our legacy of helping Americans with the war. that is who we are and what we bring to America. That’s who I am. I’m actually the first generation Hmong American. I was born right here in the capital of Lansing, Michigan. Miko Lee: Thanks so much ann. Tika, can you share who are your people and what legacy you carry with you? Tika Basnet: Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. I am Bhutanese Nepali community. My parents and all the Bhutanese, they ran away from Bhutan in 1990 due to the ethnic cleansing. They came to Nepal, seeking for asylum, and that is where we born. I was born in Nepal, in refugee camp. Even though I was born in Nepal, Nepal never gave us identity. They never give us citizenship. We were known as Bhutanese Nepali, but as known as Stateless. My husband also born in Nepal in a refugee camp. Miko Lee: Thank you. Aisa, I’m gonna ask the same question for you Aisa, that works at Asian Law Caucus. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Aisa Villarosa: So much love to you, Miko and to you Ann and Tika for being here today. I just am, I’m so honored. My name is Aisa and I carry the love and, Maki Baka spirit of Filipino Americans both in my family across the diaspora. A little bit about the Filipino American story. We came to the United States as part of the colonial machine. The first Filipinos were brought as part of the Spanish Gallian trade. We made California home, parts of Lueisiana home, and it’s quite a contrast to a lot of the sort of model minority seduction that many of my people, and myself as a younger person tended to fall into that if we kept our heads down, if we were quiet, we would be left alone. I’m struck because at this moment of just unprecedented government attacks, so many of our communities have this story where someone somewhere said to us, yeah, just keep your head down and it’ll be fine. We’re seeing the exact opposite, that this is the time to really use our voices, both individually and as one. I’m also an artist and try to infuse that into my work in fighting government systems. Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I will say I’m Miko. I am fifth generation Chinese American. I grew up knowing that my family was full of fighters that built the railroads, worked in the gold mines in laundromats and restaurants, and my parents walked with Dr. King and Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta, and I was raised in a family of social justice activists. I feel like our legacy is to continue that work and to fight for the rights of our peoples. I’m so honored to have both of all three of you powerful women join me today. As I was saying in the beginning, Tika and Anne are sadly a part of this club nobody wants to be a part of with the sudden, unexpected, harmful detentions of both of your husbands. I wonder if you can each just share the story about what happened and how you first found out about your husband being detained. Let’s start with you Tika. Tika Basnet: My husband got his removal in 2014 when he was just 17 years old, high school student going from school to home. He’s a teenager and with his friend, they were playing around and they wanna go home really fast. They just cross from private property. That is where someone saw and call 9 1 1. We came from the culture that we love to go people home , walking around, playing around. My husband came here in 2011. The incident happened on 2013. He just, came here without knowing culture, without knowing languages, So he has no idea. So when somebody called 9 1 1, he could not explain what happened. First of all, English is his second language, he was barely here without knowing rules and regulation, without knowing culture. The police took him to jail, gave a lot of charges. My husband doesn’t know what are those charges? At that time, nobody explained, this is the three charges you got, and this could lead to deportation. He feel guilty without knowing those charges. He trusts [00:14:00] Nepali translate guy, and he told my husband, if you don’t say I’m guilty, you will end up in prison for 20 to 25 years, but if you say I’m guilty, you’ll go home. My husband said, guilty. At that time, neither criminal lawyer told my husband, if you say I’m guilty, you’ll end up getting deport. Deport to the country that you are you never born. Deport To the country, you doesn’t even speak their language. The lawyer did not explain my husband you will not gonna get your green card. You cannot apply your citizenship in your life. If those things the lawyer told my husband at that time, he will never gonna say, I am guilty to the crime that he did not even commit. When they tried to deport my husband back then, Bhutan say, he’s not my citizenship, he’s not from my country, We don’t know this guy. He’s not belongs to here. When US Embassy reach out to, Nepal, do you know this guy? They told, ICE no, we don’t know this guy, like he’s not belongs here. The ICE officer, told my husband, we can let you go, you need to come here, like order of supervision every three months, every six months, whenever we call you. It been 11 years. My husband is following rules and regulation. He never did any violation after that. He got married, he has a life, he pay taxes. He was taking care of his family and in 11 years he was doing everything. In 2025 for the first time they target Bhutanese Nepali community. I knew that this is the last time I’m gonna see my husband. I broke down. When they detained my husband in April 8, I was eight months pregnant. We dream a lot of things we are gonna take care of our daughter. We are gonna buy home, we are gonna work, we are gonna give her the life that we, I’m sorry. Miko Lee: Totally. Okay. Tika Basnet: I never thought like Bhutanese community can, like deport. Like my parent already go through this trauma, when Bhutan throw them away due to ethnic cleansing and same thing happening to us. It is unbelievable. I cannot believe that, we’re going through this again and I don’t know when this gonna be stopped. I don’t know whether like my husband gonna come home. It is been five month and I really want my husband back. My daughter is, three month old. She need her dad in life ’cause I cannot provide everything by myself. My husband is the main provider for her aging parent. ’cause even now they cannot pay bills. I’m fighting for my husband case and I want my husband back. He deserve second chance because if you see his record is clean, like for one incident that happened like 12 years ago, that cannot define my husband. I cannot believe that my husband is able to get deport to the country that doesn’t even accept. I don’t know whether he gonna get killed. Whether he gonna disappear, I don’t know what will happen to him. I don’t know if it is last time I’m gonna see him. Miko Lee: Tika, thank you so much for sharing your story. Just to recap really briefly, your husband, Mohan Karki when he was a teenager, newly arrived in the country, was leaving high school, walked with his friends through a backyard and was racially profiled. The neighbor called police because he was trespassing on property. He was born at a refugee camp. Is that right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Miko Lee: There was not property that was like person’s property on that refugee camp. So that whole concept of walking across somebody’s land was something he was not aware of. He had an interpreter that did not give correct information. And so he signed something, including a deportation order, that he wasn’t even aware of until recently when he was put into detention. Is that right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Yes. Miko Lee: Right now he’s in detention. You live in Ohio, but he’s in detention in Michigan, right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Miko Lee: Okay, Tika, let’s talk about Mohans case and what’s happening. He’s held in detention right now in a detention facility in Michigan. What is going on with his case? Tika Basnet: His criminal attorney file, a Motion to Redeem asking BIA to send that, case back to Georgia. His case, that happened in 2013. Our attorney just submit documentation where he’s asking to release my husband because it’d been five month. He’s not risk to the community. He’s not risk to the flight ’cause he doesn’t have no one in Bhutan. He doesn’t have no one in Nepal. All family is in here. His community love him ,he has family that loves him. We also get lot of documentations as a proof telling ICE that my husband is not risk to the community or to the flight. Miko Lee: Thank you. He has a a four month old baby that he has yet to meet. So that is a powerful reason to stay. As Tikas pointing out, the lawyer just submitted documentation along with 50 letters of support from the community from employers, from family members, all saying why he should stay in this country. Thank you so much for sharing. Anne, i’m wondering if you could share about what happened to your husband. He was also born in a refugee camp, right? Ann Vue: Lue was born in Nangkai, Thailand refugee camp in 1978. In1979 his parents and him and his older brother Granted urgent humanitarian reasons for or for public benefit. They made it to America right before Halloween. The early nineties, me even being the first generation American here, racism played a lot. We all went through that piece and our parents not speaking English at the same time, they were going to school themselves so that they can learn our English language, . They weren’t able to teach us growing up. We had to fend for ourselves. I would say my husband he went out with some friends. He did not commit the crime. But of course now that is brought back to him, he understood about his particular case is second attempt, home invasion. Nobody was harmed. He was in the vehicle, in the backseat when he was caught. He didn’t wanna partake, but he didn’t wanna stop them either ’cause to him it was like, if I don’t partake, then I have nothing to do with it. . Because if I do, then they might not be my friends anymore. It’s just a part of growing up as a youth. Because he was there, and then would receive a court appointed attorney, and then provide it very similar to Tika’s too. Had an interpreter, that was explaining to them, was provided bad legal advice. He had no knowledge about how this would impact his immigration status. It was advised by their attorney, take the plea it’s easier, and you probably serve less than a year. You’ll be out, you’ll only be in the county jail anyways ’cause you didn’t really commit the crime and technically it should have been a misdemeanor. But because you’re an accomplice, that kind of falls under this category. So he took the plea, he served 10 months in a county jail. He actually was released for good behavior. He even finished his probation soon because he paid all of his stuff off. He even finished a youth advocate program for anybody that committed crimes between the age of 18 to 21. I just saw this form the other day and I was reading it and it talks about, the one thing about our parents, experiencing the war and coming to America, they don’t talk about it. A lot of us are from communist countries. We are very afraid to voice our voices, because someone can take action. Our parents never talked about it. I read what he wrote to his, youth coordinator, he felt so bad about what he did. He created disappointment for his parents and he understands, there are sacrifices that got us here to America. He literally wrote all of this down, i’m going to be a better person. I’m going to make my parents proud now that I understand their sacrifices. They asked him, ” what was your upbringing like?” He wrote, “poor” and the coordinator wrote on the bottom of his comments said, “Lue is remorseful for what has happened and he wants to be a better person. I have no other questions. The training is complete.” He doesn’t need any further, support and believes that he will move forward to be a better person. That’s literally what they wrote on the document. Then fast forwarding to 1999 that’s when, immigration showed up at his house. Him and I would meet in 2000, and then we’d be married in 2001. We’d celebrate. Almost 24 and a half years of marriage. We did appeal his case in the humanitarian piece of what this meant for Lue during the time where we all fled the country. Once the monks were declared enemy of the state by the LDR in Laos, we fled. It’s well documented that there was a little bit over 400,000 of us there right after the genocide and the killings of the Hmong there was probably less than 45,000 of us left. Once we understood a lot of that, we wanted to do better. We wanted to really service our community. We appealed the case. The case was then denied in his appeal letters, general Vink Powell, which led the Hmongs during the war, even had a letter where he, also pled why Hmongs need to stay here in America. And why we need to bring the rest of our people to this country. The reality is our whole family, Lue’s whole family was wiped out. We don’t have anybody, Lue doesn’t have anyone. That goes to Tika’s thing too. There’s nobody there. Going back to the case once it was denied in 2002. He then was forced to reach out to the embassy and was denied, entry into Thailand ’cause that’s where he was born. We’re stateless too, just like Tikas husband. We were denied by Thailand. We were denied by Laos stating that we are not a citizen of theirs. They do not allow or welcome any sort of entry. In 2006, they actually took his green card and then we again were denied. In 2008 we were denied a third time and that’s when his immigration officer was like, just move on and start your life. Laos and Thailand, will never sign a repatriation act with America because of you guys, because of the Hmong people, what you guys have done to their country, making it the most bombed country during the war without even being a part of the war. They will never allow you guys back. So we were like, okay. So we moved forward. Then in 2014, this immigration officer, which we was doing yearly checkups at this time, was like, Hey go get your citizenship, get your green card. They’re like you’re doing so good. You probably could have a chance to get it. We moved forward to apply for citizenship and for the green card. We were denied in 2015 and we know how expensive this is. You pay $10,000 outright, you don’t get that money back. You just have to go at it again. We decided that, we’re gonna get his case expunged, and we got his case expunged in 2018. No questions asked. It was very straightforward. Once it was expunged, we continued with our [00:26:00] lives. Very involved in the community. We had six kids . This year we even called his immigration officer and he was like, “Hey, don’t worry about it, Lue, we’re moving you over to Grand Rapids and you should be fine. Just make sure that you stay outta trouble, continue to follow your stock.” I think what triggered it was when we applied for his work permit in April. He always meets his immigration officer at the end of the year, and we renewed his work permit is what triggered it. The money was cashed out, everything the checks went through while we were receiving that, he was gonna be here, everything was gonna be fine. Then July 15th he was detained at work, six 30 in the morning, the detained officer they told him they know who he is to the community, so they have to do it this way because they don’t want any problems. They don’t want media, they don’t want reporters. He did ask them because he rode his motorcycle for some weird reason. He has not taken his bike out, his motorcycle out in the last three years. But for some reason that night he was like, I just wanna take my bike. So he took his bike that night and when ICE told him, do you have somebody come get your bike? You need to call somebody to come get your bike. He was like, nobody in my family rides motorcycles. I don’t have anyone to come get my bike. I think there was some empathy and compassion for him. My husband was like, can I just take my bike back? I’ve got six kids. I’ve got my grandma at home and my parents are also at my house right now. I just wanna see them and wanna take my bike back. They asked him, “if we let you go, please don’t run.” They followed my husband home and my husband literally called me at 6 37 in the morning and he was like, Hey, ICE is, here they got me. I’m like, “what? What’s going on?” It was just so surreal. I was so shocked. It’s a 30 minute drive. When he got there, they were already officers, packed tight in our driveway. We live in the country. There were like five or six cop cars there too. We had to walk about half a mile down to go see him. They wouldn’t allow him to enter where our home was. The officer told, my husband, told him that they’re so sorry. They have to do it this way. They know who he is. They don’t want any problems, they don’t want any reports in media out here. I will say my experience was a little bit different from others. They did take their mask off when they took him in, they were respectful. They even, talk to my two older boys like, Hey, you guys have money. I could put the money in your dad’s account. We’re, take him into Grand Rapids, we’re gonna process him, and then we’re gonna take him to the detention center, which is gonna be in Michigan. They were very open about these steps . My grandma has chronic pulmonary disease stage four. We couldn’t haul her fast enough because we only saw him for like maybe a quick minute, and that was it. They did ask us to turn around because they had to take him back and they didn’t want our little ones to see them cuffing him. Miko Lee: They actually said, Anne, we don’t want any media to be watching this? Ann Vue: I don’t want any problems. Miko Lee: Your husband is also quite well known in the Hmong community, right? So probably, they were worried about folks coming out and protesting. Is that, do you think that was the case? Ann Vue: That’s what I’m assuming. I don’t remember their exact words saying media, but do remember that they didn’t want people around, they didn’t want to create issues for the community. Because if he would’ve gotten the letter just like everybody did, which everybody then would receive the letter on Friday, and because my husband is a community leader, he is the Hmong Family Association’s president, we restart receiving many, many calls where everybody just wanted to talk to Lue ’cause they needed to know what’s going on, how to handle, what to do. At that moment I realized, oh my gosh, they detained my husband first. Then everybody else got a letter. Miko Lee: And the ICE officer that he had been checking in with routinely has he been in touch with him since he was detained? Ann Vue: He hasn’t. Miko Lee: So they had different people come in even, ’cause he was the person that said everything’s okay, keep going with your life. Ann Vue: Oh yeah. Miko Lee: And so no contact with him whatsoever since the detention? Ann Vue: No. Miko Lee: Okay. Thank you so much. I just wanna point out, for all of our listeners, how many similarities there are in these two cases. In both of these amazing women are here supporting their spouses. Both spouses born in refugee camps. Dealing with intergenerational trauma from families that had to escape ethnic cleansing or involved in a war, came into the United States under, legal properties through refugee resettlement acts, made mistakes as young people, partially due to culture and wanting to fit in. They served their time, they paid their dues. They were racially profiled. They suffered from incredible immigration policy failure with bad advice, with a system that’s broken. Now both of them are detained. Not yet deported, but detained. Many of the community members have already been deported and they’re facing statelessness. We’re seeing this not just with Bhutanese and Hmong folks, but with Mien and Lao and Haitian and El Salvadorian. We could fill in the blank of how many other peoples in other communities are facing this. We also know that these private detention centers where people are being held, are making millions and millions of dollars, and it’s connected into our corrupt political system that’s in place right now. Aisa, I’m wondering if you could, talk about the case, but also about some of the deals that we think have had to be made with Laos and Bhutan in order for these deportations to even take place. So Aisa from Asian Law Caucus, I’m gonna pass it to you to go over some of the legal ramifications. Aisa Villarosa: Of course, Miko, and thank you for it for the context. There are so many parallels that we as advocates must uplift because this is not the time to be divided. This is the time to build solidarity that we’ve long known needs to happen. What Miko is referring to is largely something that we’ve observed around the travel  bans. Earlier this year, right around the time that the Trump administration took hold, there was a draft travel ban list that leaked across a number of media outlets, the Times, et cetera, and the same countries we’re talking about today, Bhutan, Laos. These were historically not countries that were subject to sanctions, like the travel ban, and yet here they were. A lot of us were scratching our heads and asking, why is this happening? Our theory, and this is a theory that is now also manifesting in a number of FOIA requests or Freedom of Information Act requests that are submitted from Asian Law Caucus to departments like the State Department ice, the Department of Homeland Security. Asking the same question that Tika and Anne are asking, which is, how are these deportations even happening? They were not happening until this year. What very likely happened was a bit of a quid pro quo. So in removing Bhutan, removing Laos from this list where they could be sanctioned as a country, there was likely some backdoor deal that took place between the US State Department and Bhutanese officials and the US officials, where essentially there was some form of an agreement that there would be an acceptance or a supposed acceptance of a certain number of folks from these communities. That is why around March, for the Bhutanese refugee community, for example, we started seeing pickups very similar to Mohan’s case, where, many people who had perhaps made some mistakes in their youth or had really old criminal convictions were swept off the streets and thrust into these really rapid deportation proceedings. I don’t even know if proceedings is the right word, because there essentially was no proceeding. The Immigration Court is very much a cloaked process. The immigration judge is kind of judge and jury wrapped up together, which is very different than many of us might turn on the TV and see something like Law and order. An immigration court works a very different way where this piece of paper, this final removal order, basically gives ICE a lot of bandwidth to make these deportations happen. However, that doesn’t mean we should just accept that this is happening. We know that just basic procedures of fairness are not being met. We know, too that in the case of, for example, the Bhutanese community ICE officers have come to the wrong house. And put a lot of people in fear. So racial profiling was happening even before this recent Supreme Court decision, which essentially now condones racial profiling, as criteria that the ICE can use. I also just wanted to talk about this trend too, we’re seeing with so many cases. It happened to Lue, it happened to Mohan, where in someone’s underlying criminal court case, maybe they were given a court appointed attorney. In many cases, they were not told of the immigration impacts of, say, taking a plea. There is a Supreme Court case called Padilla versus Kentucky and basically the law shifted such that in many cases there now is a duty for a court appointed public defender to actually talk to folks like Mohan and Lue about the immigration consequences of their plea. So when Tika mentioned that there’s something called a post-conviction relief effort for Mohan. That’s happening in Georgia. This is very much what that legal defense looks like, where, an expert attorney will look at that very old court record, see if those rights were violated, and also talk to Mohan and make sure did that violation happen and is that grounds for reopening an immigration case. For Lue, there is a really mighty pardoning campaign that’s brewing in the state of Michigan. So in Michigan, governor Gretchen Whitmer does have the authority to in some cases expedite a pardon in process. Unfortunately in the immigration arena the expungement does not have that same weight as say a vacating, or a motion to vacate that criminal record. So it’s super frustrating because, so much of this turns ethically, morally on- do we, as people believe in second chances, and I know most people do, and yet here we are really. Based on a technicality. I also just want to name too that Lue as a person is both a natural organizer and he is a spiritual guide of his community. So something that many folks don’t know is because of so much of the trauma that Anne talked about, both from, supporting the Americans during the Secret War, many Hmong folks who came to the States, they actually in some cases died in their sleep because of this, almost unexplained weight of the trauma. It almost underscores the importance of Lue, not just to his family, but this family is a collective family. He’s both a mentor for so many, he’s a spiritual guide for so many. Him being away from his family, away from community, it’s like a double, triple wound. for Mohan, I’d love to uplift this memory I have of a moment in June when Tika gave us a call, and at that point, Mohan had called Tika and said, they’re taking me, I’m being deported. At that point, they were removing Mohan from the ICE facility in Butler, Ohio and transporting him to the Detroit airport or that deportation to Bhutan. Tika was forced to essentially delay her childbirth. It was very much in the range of when she was due to give birth to their daughter. But because the clock was ticking, Tika drove to Butler, literally begged for Mohans life as our organizing and advocacy and legal team was trying to get together this emergency stay of deportation. That fortunately came through at the 11th hour. But the fact that Mohan remains in this facility in St. Clair, Michigan, that he’s never held his daughter is unacceptable, is ridicuLues. I think so much of these two cases almost, this invisible brotherhood of pain that I know Ann has talked to me about that. Because Lue right now has been in a couple facilities. He is organizing, he’s doing his thing and actually supporting folks while also just trying to keep himself well, which is no easy feat to do in so many of these facilities. Especially because, in Alexandria, for example, which is a facility in Louisiana. We know that folks are sleeping on cement floors. We know that folks are not being fed, that there’s a lot of human rights violations going on. Here is Lue still continuing to use his voice and try to advocate for the folks around him. Miko Lee: Aisa thank you so much for putting that into context, and we’ll put links in the show notes for how folks can get involved in both of these cases. One is, Rising Voices call to action for Lue. We encourage folks to do that. In terms of Mohan, there’s a GoFundMe to help support Tika and the immense lawyer fees, and also a letter writing campaign to the ICE director Kevin Roff, to try and release Mohan and Lue. These are really important things that are happening in our community, and thank you for being out there. Thank you for talking and sharing your stories. We really appreciate you. And also, just briefly, I’d love us for us to talk for a minute about how many folks in our Asian American communities, we don’t wanna talk about mistakes that we have made in the past because we might consider that shameful. And therefore, in both of these communities, when we started organizing, it was really hard at first to find people to come forth and share their stories. So I wonder if both of you can give voice to a little about that, the power you found in yourself to be able to come forward and speak about this, even though some other folks in the community might not feel comfortable or strong enough to be able to talk. Tika, can you speak to that? Tika Basnet: What makes me really strong, and I wanna see that my husband case is because he was 17, people can make mistake and from those mistake, if people are learning. Americans should consider, ’cause my husband did make mistake and I wish that time he knew the rules and regulation. I wish somebody taught him that he’s not supposed to go somebody else property, around in backyard. I wish he was been in the United States like more than , one and a half year. I wish, if he was like more than two years, three years. I think that time he, from high school, he could learn. He’s not supposed to go there. He was just been in the United States like one and a half year just going to high school. Nobody taught him. His parent doesn’t even speak English. Until now, they doesn’t even speak, like nobody in our community knew rules and regulation. He doesn’t have guide, mentor to taught him like, and even though he did make mistake and he’s really sorry, and from those mistake learning a lot, and he never get into trouble, after 11 years, he was clean, he work, he pay taxes. That is the reason that I really wanna come forward. People can make mistake, but learning from those mistake that changed people life. The reason that I’m coming forward is because organization like Asian Law Caucus, ARU, and, Miko, a lot of people helped me. They taught me like people can make mistake and, we shouldn’t be same. I really wanna give example to my daughter, that, you are fighting for justice and you shouldn’t fear. What is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. But if somebody’s make mistake and they are not, doing that mistake again, I think the people can get a second chance. My husband deserves second chance. He’s 30 years old. He has a family, he has a wife, children and he deserved to be here. We came here legally, my husband came here. Legally, we, promise that we’ll get home and this is our home. We wanna stay here and I really want my husband be home soon so he can play with her daughter to play with his daughter. Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Ann I wonder if you could talk to the strength that it takes for you to come forward and speak about your husband and your family. Ann Vue: I’m a community leader with my husband. There was a moment when he was first detained where I was in complete silence. I was so shocked. It took my attorney, Nancy, just talking to me about it. Of course, back to what Aisa said earlier in our communities, we’re afraid. I was so scared. I didn’t know what to do. It took me visiting my husband in Baldwin and letting him know that, hey, a bunch of community members are now reaching out. And that’s that. At that moment, he was like, you have to say something. You have to say something you have to make noise because you have a, 50% chance, right? We have a 50 50 chance. 50%. They’re gonna send me 50%. You’re gonna feel bad if you don’t say anything, right? 50 here, 50 there. It doesn’t matter. But a hundred percent regret if you don’t say something. I thought about it and he was like, well, go out there, be my voice. He’s like, you’ve always been my voice. You got this right. I didn’t say no to Nancy. ’cause she really wanted to talk to our rep Mai you know about this. Mai and I are pretty close too. , I just knew if I said anything, Mai’s gonna be like mm-hmm. All the way. I just let Nancy help me, and my most vulnerable time. I’m glad that she did. I’m glad that we did get this out. It is the most important thing for us. what keeps me going is all of those that have been impacted by this, from people like Tika. I have many, I call ’em sisters. We’re all in a lot of these group chats together. They’ve been also keeping me going. Our amazing team of attorneys and everybody just strategizing through this unprecedented time. It’s really everyone’s voices. I get to talk to Lue daily. It’s definitely not cheap, but he gets to share each story of each person. I believe that everybody has a story and they might not be as lucky as maybe Tika or my husband, but at least now I have their story. I will be their voice. I will tell each person’s story, each name, each alien number that I track down, my husband’s even literally learned how to count in Spanish, just so he can give them like my phone number in Spanish in case they need to call an emergency. Oh, I’m be getting a lot of calls. that is what keeps me going because I think that Tika and I and many others are, hoping that there is going to be a better day, a brighter day. I hope that everyone can see that, our children are American, right? Our children, they deserve to have their fathers and their mothers. They deserve to grow with these parents. And with that being said, the most important thing to me is they’re not just bystanders. They’re literally the future of America. I don’t want them growing up with trauma, with trying to ask me questions “well mom, if we’re refugees and we helped, Americans as allies, and we come to this country, why is this payback like this?” There’s a moral obligation that has to be there and they’re gonna grow up and they’re gonna be trauma by this. I’ve got children right now that’s been talking about joining the National Guard. It speaks volume about what happens to my husband. He’s championed the Hmong, Michigan Special Gorilla unit, the Hmong veterans here in the last two years, really  with helping them through resolutions, tributes, making sure that they have things, that they are out there, that people now know them, they are finally recognized. This puts my husband at great danger by sending him back, because now he’s championed the veterans here. He celebrates our veterans here. So it’s a moral obligation. I hope that, and this is to every child, I hope that every child, they deserve their father’s presence. There are many people who don’t even have their father’s presence and they wish their fathers were around. Our fathers wanna be around. I hope that our daughter, I only have one daughter too, that someday they can, their fathers can be a part of their, the American culture. I hope that we get that opportunity and I hope that somebody stop being scared, but turn around and help us. Help us. We came here legally, minor stuff, long decade old. This detainment has been worse than when he did time back in 1997. I just hope that somebody hears our podcast, Miko. Thank you. Aisa and Tika. And they turn and they have some compassion and help us because this is the tone that we’re setting for the future of our American children. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Tika, you wanna add? Tika Basnet: Yes, I really wanna talk about what kind of husband Mohan is. Even though like he detained for five month I put lot of money in his account and there was one guy, his family cannot support him. For me, it is really hard. I’m not working. But even my husband called me you don’t need to put like money in my account, but can you please can you please put money in his account? He did not eat food. His family did not have money. I can survive without eating food. I think his story is really touching me. My husband was crying listening to that guy story in detention center and then I did put like $50 in his account. My husband is giving person. He love to give even though, he struggle a lot, even though, he doesn’t know what will happen when he get deport. But, him saying other guy story. Does make him cry. I think this is the reason that I really wanna come forward. My husband is giving person, he’s lovely person, he’s caring person. That is the reason I wanna come forward. I want people to hear our voice, rather than silent. Right now people know our story. But if I was silent then I don’t know whether my husband was already disappear. I don’t know whether he gonna die torture or maybe he will expel within 24 hours. I have no idea. My husband is number one support system for me, because of him I’m here sharing his story. For years I had wonderful time with him. We build our dream and until 2025, our dream is destroy. I’m trying to build again. I’m hoping, my husband is coming home soon and I’m hoping that this will be the last time that he will get detained. I hope that this will be the end. I don’t want him to get detained or deported again. I’m really tired. I don’t know what to do. I’m hopeless. I hope listening to my story and Ann’s story that separating family is not good. It is affecting not only one person but his whole community, whole family. We deserve to get our husband back. It is not only about the wife that is fighting for husband, it is the children. They’re so small, they born here and we cannot raise alone, we cannot work. We have things to pay. Paying bills and taking care of child alone is really difficult. It’s been five month. I went through postpartum depression, I went through trauma and I don’t wanna deal anymore. Like I don’t have courage to do this anymore. We need our husband back. Miko Lee: Thank you. I think both of your husbands are also main caregivers for parents that are ailing in both cases. It’s a really important that we are intergenerational communities and as you both said, it’s not just about the children, but it’s also about parents and brothers and sisters and community members as well. Thank you so much for lifting up your stories. I just wanna go back for one more thing. We talked briefly about the crazy expensive lawyer fees that have come up for families that they’ve been dealing with this, and then also Tika was just bringing up about detention and commissary fees. Can you talk a little bit about the prison industrial complex and the fees that are associated? As Anne was saying, just calling Lue every day the costs that are associated with those things. Many people that don’t have a family member that’s incarcerated don’t know about that. Can you share a little bit about what that system is? Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, absolutely Miko. Just to underscore, a big theme from this conversation, is that the US made commitments and they have broken them, both with, as Anne talked about, the refugee experience is one that is made possible through US commitment of acknowledging what, people have survived, what they have given to the country. Folks are being removed to countries where not only do they have zero ties to, don’t speak the language, but, especially in the case of the Bhutanese refugee community, as Tika mentioned, it is truly a double expulsion. So the fact that we have well-documented testimonials of folks deported from Bhutan after they’re removed there into these life-threatening conditions . A community member passed away in large part because of the failure of the US to both care for them while in detention. So going back to that prison complex, but also just putting them in such a harrowing situation. In another instance, a community member was found after wandering for over a hundred miles on foot. So this is not, deportation and the story ends. This is deportation and, there is a family that is grieving and thinking through next steps, there is, this call to not have borders, break us the way that this country is trying to do. And to say a little bit about the fees, USCIS, there, there has not been a point yet in history where so many changes and charges hurting families have been ushered in, But for this year. To give a couple examples of that – asylum cases for one, these often take many years through this administration. Now, families have to pay a cost yearly for each year that your asylum application, languishes because we’re also seeing that those same folks who are supposed to process these applications are either being laid off or they’re being militarized. So something like USCIS where this was where one would go to apply for a passport. Now the same department is literally being handed guns and they’re now taking folks during naturalization interviews. Other avenues to challenge your removal. Like I mentioned a motion to reopen. All these things used to be fairly affordable. Now they can cost many thousands of dollars on top of the attorney fees. So something that’s been quite challenging for groups like Asian Law Caucus where we do have attorneys representing folks in removal proceedings, there’s often this misperception that oh it’s costing so much money. Attorneys are pocketing cash. Unfortunately there are some situations where attorneys have been known to take advantage of families in this desperate moment. But for many, many attorneys who are in this mix, they’re experts at this work. They’re trying to do the right thing. They’re both overwhelmed and they’re seeing these new charges, which make the battle really even more difficult. So to turn it back to the listeners, I would say that as powerless as this moment can make us feel everyone is bearing witness. Hopefully the listeners today can take in Anne’s story, can take in Tika’s story and whatever power one has in their corner of the world, this is the moment to use that. Whether it’s your voice, whether it’s learning more about a community, maybe you’re learning about for the first time. This is really the moment to take action. Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I wanna thank you all for being here with me today, for sharing your personal stories, your personal pain, and for recognizing that this is happening. We deeply believe that we need to keep our families together. That is really important. It is written into the very basis of this American country about redemption and forgiveness. And this is what we’re talking about for misunderstandings that happened when these folks were young men, that they have paid for their time, and yet they’re being punished again, these promises that were broken by this American government, and we need to find ways to address that. I really wanna deeply thank each of you for continuing to be there for sharing your voice, for protecting one another, for being there and standing up for your family and for our community. Thank you for joining me today. Check out our Apex Express Show notes to find out about how you can get involved. Learn about the Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang and Mohan Khaki’s GoFundMe. On November 3rd, 4:00 PM Pacific Time, 7:00 PM Eastern Time. Join us for We Belong here, Bhutanese and Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness, a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great night.     The post APEX Express – 10.30.25-We Belong! appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On tonight’s episode, we’re focusing on a particular segment of our immigrant and refugee community, Hmong and Bhutanese refugees. Both of these targeted communities are stateless with no land to call their own, and their deportation carries the very real danger of disappearance and death. Robin Gurung from Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong innovating Politics, discuss their community and personal refugee stories, and talk about the intersection of the US’ deeply broken immigration and criminal legal systems, otherwise known as crimmigration. We also get to hear from the wives of two detained refugees, one Bhutanese and one Hmong, who are currently fighting to keep their families together and to protect their loved ones from the dangers of deportation as stateless people.   Important Links: Hmong Innovating Politics: Website | Instagram Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram Bhutanese American Refugee Rights website Transcript Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on KPFA. My name is Swati Rayasam. Since the onset of the Trump administration, immigrant and refugee communities have been under increased attack, being kidnapped in broad daylight, detained in unsanitary and unsafe conditions, and deported to countries many of them barely know. All without due process or communication to their loved ones and communities. On tonight’s episode, we’re focusing on a particular segment of our immigrant and refugee community, Hmong and Bhutanese refugees. Both of these targeted communities are stateless with no land to call their own, and their deportation carries the very real danger of disappearance and death. Robin Gurung from Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong innovating Politics, discuss their community and personal refugee stories, and talk about the intersection of the US’ deeply broken immigration and criminal legal systems, otherwise known as crimmigration. We also get to hear from the wives of two detained refugees, one Bhutanese and one Hmong, who are currently fighting to keep their families together and to protect their loved ones from the dangers of deportation as stateless people. I also want to note because this is a rapidly developing situation, that this episode was recorded on August 13th, 2025, and is being released on August 28th, 2025. For the most recent updates, please go to bhutaneserefugeerights.org or check out the Pardon Refugees campaign. Now, here’s Miko. Miko: Welcome to Apex Express. Thank you so much for being here today. I’m so glad to bring you all together in this time. I’m wondering if I could ask you each to introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about the community your organization serves and what you do, and let’s start with Kao Ye. Kao Ye: Hello everyone, and thank you for making space- my name is Kao Ye Tao. I use she her pronouns, and I work as the director of policy and partnerships with an organization called Hmong Innovating Politics. We are an organization that serves Hmong youth and families in Sacramento and Fresno, which holds two of our largest Hmong American communities in California. And our work with Hmong youth and families is really about developing their leadership to organize towards social justice and to get the resources that their communities deserve. Miko: Thank you, Kao Ye and Robin, could you please introduce yourself? Robin: Sure. My name is Robin Gurung. I use he, him, his, I’m from the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community. I live in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. my role at Asian Refugees United is the co-founder and the co-executive director. We have our program in California and Pennsylvania. California programs are, are serving Asian diaspora and then, Pennsylvania programs are focused serving the Nepal speaking Bhutanese community. We work in the intersection of arts and healing, storytelling, civic engagement, leadership development. Thank you. Miko: Thanks Robin and I am your host Miko Lee, lead producer at Apex Express. And all of us are part of a network called AACRE Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, which is a network of progressive Asian American groups. So you all work with refugee populations. I’m wondering if you could tell a little bit more about the backstory of your community, and also if you feel comfortable about how you personally came to be a refugee in the United States. And, Robin, I’d love to start with you on that one. Robin: Sure. My community is Nepali speaking, Bhutanese refugee community. And we are ethnically Nepali, which means culture wise and language wise we speak Nepali and follow the Nepali culture tradition. Our ancestors like maybe in 18 hundreds, 19 hundreds migrated from Nepal to Bhutan and became the citizen of that country. And most people don’t know about Bhutan, it’s a very tiny country between China and India. And, if people know about Bhutan, then people know it through the cross national happiness concept, Bhutan is considered the happiest country in the world. So our ancestors were in mostly in the southern area of Bhutan for generations, they became the citizen. They had their own home, their own land. And then later, 1980s, early nineties, there was a policy by the government of Bhutan, which is the monarchy government system- king rules the country. They brought a policy called One Nation, One People Policy. Which means all different groups of people would have to follow the same culture, same religion, kind of follow the same dress code and because of that policy all people were forced to stay away from following our own culture or our own religion, which, most of our folks were Hindu. Our people protested against it and because of that, the government expelled over a hundred thousand of our community members. And, they expelled to India and then from like India wouldn’t allow us to stay and we had to resettle in Nepal in seven different refugee camps under different international agencies like U-N-H-C-R and other agencies. Miko: And then Robin, can you tell a little bit about your personal story and how you came here? Robin: Yeah. Yeah. So 1992 is when my family had to leave Bhutan. And at that time I was three years old. I remember growing up in a refugee camp in Nepal, from three years until I was 23 years. So 20 years of my life I was in a refugee camp in Nepal. And in 2012, I came to US through the refugee resettlement program introduced to our camps in 2008, and through it US agreed to resettle 60,000 of our committee members. By 2017, I think US has resettled about 70 to 80,000 of our Bhutanese community members.   Miko: Thank you so much for sharing. Kao Ye I wonder if you could talk about your community and the refugee resettlement program that your community was a part of. Kao Ye: The Hmong American community, or just the Hmong community overall, is a group that’s indigenous to East and Southeast Asia. And through our ancient history, we’ve always been a stateless, people fighting for our autonomy to live to practice our customs and our culture. And particularly where we come into this history of refugee is during the Vietnam War where many Hmong people, alongside other ethnic groups in Laos, were caught in the crossfire of the United States conflict in Southeast Asia. And so with the Vietnam War. The Hmong as well as many other ethnic communities that lived, in the hills and the mountains were recruited in covert operations by the CIA to fight back against the Vietnamese, the Northern Vietnamese communist forces, as well as the Putet Lao. And so once the US withdrew from Southeast Asia, it created a vacuum of conflict and violence that our people had to escape from in order to survive. And so after the Vietnam War in 1975, we saw the mass displacement of many Southeast Asian ethnic communities, including Hmong families. And that is where my history starts because my parents were born in Laos and because of this war, they fled to Thailand refugee camps and lived there for a few years until they were able to come to the United States in 1992. And I’m actually I’m a child of refugees and so what I know about this part of my history comes from the stories of my grandparents who raised me as well as what little I could learn in the textbooks of public education. And so it wasn’t actually until going to college and. Being able to access more of this literature, this history that I really learned about what the United States had done in Southeast Asia and the ramifications of that for myself and my family and so many others, refugees that. Have to have had to resettle in the United States. And so it’s definitely a history that runs very close, because we have relatives that live through that refugee experience. And so it is very well and alive. And so as we now approach this conversation around ICE and deportations, it really is a reminder of the trauma that our people face, but are still facing as a people that have been seen as disposable to the United States government. Miko: Thanks, Kao Ye. Let’s talk a little bit more about that. But first I wanna say, did either of you ever hear about refugees in your textbooks? I never did. So I’m wondering if, you said you learned a little bit about that from textbooks. Was that something you learned in public education. Kao Ye: I did not learn about refugees or refugees experience. I learned about the war and as a Hmong kid it brought me so much delight to try to scroll through the history books just to see if Hmong people were mentioned. And even then the refugee experience was not ever something that we talked about. I felt like definitely not in, in high school. I think it was college really, that then started to articulate those terms and that Southeast Asian identity, that is really where I think I also became politicized in that. Miko: Yeah, because I think in textbooks there might be a little section on the Vietnam War, but it does not talk about the, all the Southeast Asian ethnic peoples that actually fought in the war. We have to dig that information out on our own, but I wanna move us to what is happening right now. So the Trump administration has created. Culture of fear among immigrants and refugees, these ICE raids and disappearances. It is so intense and using immigrants as a fear tool to prop up white supremacy is so blatant right now. I’m wondering if you can each talk about, how this administration’s policies are impacting your communities. And, Robin, let’s start with you. What is happening right now? I know since the end of March, can you share a little bit about what’s been happening with Bhutanese Americans? Robin: Sure. Sure. So our people were settled to this country with the hope that this is going to be our home. But starting March of this year, with the new policies of this current administration, we started seeing abrupt, ICE arrest in our communities. People were picked up from home, their workplaces, and from their ICE, check-ins. And, since March, within I would say two to three months, more than 72 of our community members were picked up, mostly from Pennsylvania and then Ohio, and also from other states like New York, Georgia, North Dakota. So until now, we have, the records of at least 50 people who have been deported to Bhutan and at least 72 who are detained. So more than 30 people are [at risk] of getting detained. The nature of the ICE arrests that we have seen is we don’t know whether the due processes were followed. They made it so hard for the families to look for attorneys, and also to track their family members. Within days family members would find their loved ones disappeared, and then they wouldn’t be able to talk to them they wouldn’t be able to track them and provide the support that they needed. So for us as a community organization we did not anticipate this and we were not prepared for this. And, and we didn’t have the infrastructure to really address this, right? So it became such challenging work for us. Like within days we had to mobilize our people. We had to mobilize our teams to help family members with legal support, emotional support, mobilize our community members to update what’s happening with this situation. The rapid response work, know your rights clinics that we had to set up. So on one hand it’s the detention and deportation in the US and on the other hand, when our people were deported to Bhutan, what we’re seeing is within 24 hours, they are being expelled from Bhutan to India, and then from India because India wouldn’t accept them as well, they had to enter Nepal because for most of these Deportee, they’re very young, they were born in refugee camps, and for most of them, the only known land is Nepal. Right. And they had to enter Nepal without documentation. And then some of them were found in refugee camps. And most of them are unknown. Like they’re, they have disappeared. Miko: So that is so much over the last few months that ARU has had to step in and take a leading, role in this situation that has impacted the Bhutanese community from focusing on wellness and youth development to suddenly translating materials into Nepali, translating, know Your Rights materials into Nepali, hosting all these different events, the work that you have been doing is really powerful. I wonder if you could share with us the story of Mohan Karki, who is a community member that’s currently detained in Michigan. Robin: Sure. So, Mohan Karki is now in detention in Michigan and he’s a community member member who lived in Ohio. So he was detained by ICE during his regular ICE check-in , I believe in April, they detained him and then he was taken for deportation. And last minute, the families and the community had to come together and then appeal the deportation. Right now he’s in Michgan detention center and his wife, who was pregnant and had due date, when Mohan was being deported on June 10, is now fighting day and night to stop the deportation and also to bring Mohan home. Right now, Asian Refugees United and other community partners, like AWPAL, Asian Law Caucus are working together to support Mohan’s family, to bring Mohan home and also running a, GoFund me fundraiser, to help the family pay the legal fees. Miko: Thanks Robin. And we’re gonna listen to Tikas story right now. Tika Basnet: Hi, my name is Tika Basnet I’m from Ohio and I’m fighting my husband deportation case. So on April seven, a lot of people told us not to go to the ICE office, but my husband wanna follow the rules, he wanna go there. We went to the Westerville office inside And we sit down, we talk to each other. Nothing will go wrong. And suddenly ICE told us to come inside and they told us that my husband got travel documents from Bhutan. I told them like it is not safe for my husband to get deport in Bhutan, all the Bhutanese people run away in 1990s due to the ethnic cleansing and if my husband get deported in Bhutan, he will either gonna get killed, tortured, disappeared, imprisoned, I don’t know what will happen, but they did not listen to me. So they detained my husband and I came at the parking lot and his mom saw me coming alone. So they start crying and I told them like, Mohan is gone and this is the last time I think I’m gonna see my husband. the time that my husband was taken away from Butler County on June 10 I was 41 weeks pregnant. I was supposed to deliver on, June 10. But no, I told the doctor I change my delivery time. I am not gonna go now like I need to fight for my husband. Like, When Bhutanese people started coming here in 2007. Third party promise us that in here in United States, we will get our identity. That identity will never taken away. They promise us that the way Bhutan take our identity, they will not gonna do that. we thought that this is our home. We thought that having a green card, having a citizenship, it is permanently, but no, we are, we all are wrong. And that identity is taken away within a second. And we became stateless again. So, my husband, Mohan Karki he just arrived in the United States he been here less than two years when the incident happened. He did not understand the law. He did not understand the culture. He did not know anything. My husband he was only 17 years old, high school student coming from school to home. On the way to reach their apartment, there is one private house. They are just trying to go to the shortcut from the backyard. So some neighbor call 9 1 1. And that only one mistake lead to deportation. The place that we come from, there is no boundaries. In Nepal, we are allowed to go anybody property We are allowed to walk somebody else house and because of the cultural difference, he’s paying price right now. At that time, nobody can speak English. They cannot understand what police were saying and Nepali interpreter told my husband that if you say I’m guilty, you’ll out of prison soon. But if you did not say I’m guilty, you’ll end up in prison for 20 to 25 years. High school student he’s scared he just say, I’m guilty, and he did not know what is deportation mean. He did not know what he was signing. Nobody informed him what he was signing. That signing was deportation. What happened in 2013 is impacting us in 2025 and still he wish he did not cross somebody else backyard at that time. He wish he knew that he wasn’t allowed to cross somebody else’s backyard. I don’t know what will our future is gonna be, but I hope that he gets second chance. His community love him. He love people. He was working as a truck driver. He paid taxes. He was supporting his parent. He was supporting me. My daughter deserve to have a father. You know, she’s just one month. But now the dream that I was hoping one day I’m gonna build with my husband that is taken away and I’m left alone with this child. I already went through a lot without him, i’m the only one that fighting for my husband case. The deportation is not only breaking one family, but it is breaking everybody, the community and the family. And I hope that people can support me so I can fight for my husband case. Like I really need so many attorney. I need criminal attorney to open up his 2013 case. And I have wonderful, wonderful attorney, my husband get stay off removal, but that is not guarantee my husband can get deport anytime. The attorney fee are really expensive and he still needs support. The US made bhutanese people a promise of home. We belong here. Stop the detention and deportation. Stop deporting Bhutanese people. We are stateless. We don’t have country, don’t have a home. This is our home. US is our home. We belong here. Miko: Of the 72 people, Mohan is the first Bhutanese refugee that we actually have a stay of release on, as Robin was saying earlier, most of the folks were moved from state to state, so you can’t really get a lawyer in that time. And as we all know, nonprofit immigration lawyers are under a lot of stress because of the attack of this administration. So it makes it incredibly complicated, let alone the legal fees that it costs to help support people going through this. And right now, Mohan has a stay on his, deportation and the lawyer that they do have is drafting up a letter to be able to release him into the community and also overturn his original case that happened as a minor in Georgia, which was a ridiculous case where he was leaving school, early high school, first year in the country, leaving high school early, and walked with his friends across a backyard. And the neighbor that they walked through their yard called the police, and they arrested him along with his friends for trespassing, they gave him paperwork that he didn’t even understand. He signed it along with a interpreter they gave him false information to say he’d be locked up for 25 years, or if he signed this papers, that would be fine. He could go and what the papers said was it changed his charge into a felony and had him sign a letter of deportation. So this is part of the failure of our American legal system that we’re not providing adequate information. It is a lack of due process. Thankfully, the work that Asian Law Caucus and United States of Stateless and other community activists are doing to call this out and help work with us is really critical. I wanna turn now to Kao Ye how this administrations is impacting Hmong refugees, and how is it similar or different to the experiences that Robin is describing for the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community? Kao Ye: I echoed many of the sentiments and the challenges that Robin shared around what we as nonprofit, grassroots organizations are having to build and grapple with just the limited infrastructure that we have to deal with the current ICE disappearances and deportation and all the support that’s needed for the families. And so thank you Robin, for sharing that. I wanted to start broad a little bit because I think that this Trump administration is happening in the backdrop of the 50th year commemoration of the end of the wars in Southeast Asia and the refugee resettlement. We had over 1.1 million Southeast Asians resettle to the United States, the largest immigration resettlement, in American history. And so this year brings so many complexities, I think as a Southeast Asian community where there is a level of looking back at policies that have impacted us and have failed, but also looking forward what is the community that we are building together to move and progress together. And so there are those complexities, I think as the fact that it’s the 50th year and like, this is what we’re dealing with. This is the trauma that we are grappling with. And so I wanted to put that out front and center because even I think within our communities , there is no necessarily enlightenment in terms of how we talk about what is happening to our people and how they’re getting deported unjustly. So that is why it is so important to have this dialogue within our communities as well as the solidarity that we also share with the Bhutanese community and other immigrant groups too. I think that in many of our Southeast Asian communities, their reasons for deportations is very tied to past convictions, and so this is the intersection between criminal law and immigration law. And it makes it complex because our people are now having to consult not just an immigration lawyer, but like criminal attorney so that they could really assess like what kind of relief they can get in order to mitigate, impending deportations. And then also miko you had shared about the lack of adequate legal service or representation because many of these folks, right, that have had these convictions that have now served their time and are simply members of our community that make our community rich. They are now having to revisit removal orders that they signed, thinking that, oh, nothing necessarily was gonna happen because they don’t have a repatriation agreement. So, in our community, there was never a thought that we were going to be deported back to our home country because of that policy. And so that is a big contributing factor as to why the Hmong community, we don’t have that infrastructure to really support our members who have gone through the criminal justice system and now have those removal orders. And so HIP, as well as many other grassroots. Sadly we did have to scramble to put this know your rights information together because again, I don’t think that there was visibility in the need for us in this conversation around immigration Southeast Asians are a segment of our API community and so it just, I think, multiplied the invisibility that we already faced as a group of Southeast Asians. And so the support was definitely not there. And, to Robin’s point, we did our best to try to put this information together to our community, starting with the Know Your Rights. And then we also realized like it was more complex than that, and that the legal supports were so necessary because everyone’s case was different. I think what we’re still dealing with now is that there’s always been a lack of trust between our community members and government entities and nonprofit organizations. And so, if someone is dealing with the situation, they wanna go to, a partner that they trust to help them, even if they’re not necessarily equipped to do that work, is that they’re going to only the people that they trust because there is such a big mistrust. And so I think that, there is still the level of trust building that is needed to be done within our community so that folks feel comfortable to come to us or come to other people for support. And I think what makes me feel emotional is just when I hear about community members feeling hopeless and just feeling like there’s nothing that they can do and that level of disempowerment to me, I think is something that is real. And I can’t say that we can’t combat it, but I think that it is about being able to find different outlets of support for them. Miko: Thank you for lifting that up. And just , in terms of the numbers, over three months, March, April and May, there were about 72 Bhutanese Americans that have been detained. And this is just kind of starting up with the Hmong community. So we had 15 that were detained from Minnesota and another 10 right now are being held in Michigan. And we also see this happening with Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodians, and Myan folks. All of these folks as Kao Ye you’re pointing out, have had common threads, which is connections with the system, with the criminal legal/ justice system and crimmigration is something that in the AACRE network we’ve been talking about and working on, which is really about the education to prison, to deportation pipeline. And one of the things that this administration had talked about is, let’s get rid of all the murderers and the rapists. You know, this like scare language about people that are convicted criminals, let’s get rid of them all. But the fact of the matter. The vast majority of all of these people are people like Mohan Karki, a cultural misunderstanding that happened when he was a child. Like Lou Yang, who is Hmong refugee detained in Michigan right now. Somebody who was involved in something as a kid, but has since then become a leader in the community. So let’s take a moment and listen to the spouse of Lou Yang, a Hmong refugee detained in Michigan in July. Anne Vu: My name is Anne Vu and I come before you today with a heart full of hope. Sorrow and a plea for justice. I am a proud American, a mother of six, the daughter of Hmong refugees who would gain their citizenship, and the wife of a man called Lou Yang, who is now detained and faced with potential deportation from the only country that he’s ever known. Lou has lived in Michigan since October, 1979. He was born stateless in a refugee camp in Nongkai Thailand and his family fled Laos due to persecution. His father and like many others, served with the United States force during the Vietnam War as part of the Secret War, recruited by CIA in Laos, a conflict that most Americans do not know has happened. The Hmong were recruited by the CIA as part of the Secret War to help America during the Vietnam War. But when the war ended and the US withdrew, we were as the Hmongs declared enemy of the state. What followed was genocide, polarization and persecution by the state, and it was because of our alliance, the promise made by the US government that the Hmong refugees were legally settled here under certain migration of refugee laws and acts. And Lou arrived here as a young, toddler in infancy. In 1997, he was arrested on an alleged accomplice in an attempt home invasion, second degree. He was in the vehicle at the time. He never entered the home. He literally was still a juvenile at that time. He had a court appointed attorney and was advised to take a plea without being told it would affect his immigration status for the rest of his life. This is the reality of our immigration system – long, complex, confusing and devastating, unforgiving. It is not built for people like us, people like Lou, people who have served their time, rebuilt their lives and have nowhere else to go. We’ve walked this legal path, we’ve stayed together in the lines, and yet we are here punished today. Lou has no other charges, no current legal issues, no history of violence. He is not a flight risk. He is not a danger to our public safety. He is a father, my husband, a son, a son-in-law, a grandson and a brother to many, and our leader and a provider to our community, and to my family. He renews his work authorization and follows every rule asked of him no matter how uncertain the future felt. Together, we’ve raised six beautiful children. They’re all proud Americans. Lou has contributed to Michigan’s economy for decades working in our automotive industry and now he is gone and all that he is built is unraveling and the community is heartbroken. We didn’t come from wealth. We didn’t have every opportunity handed to us because we didn’t come seeking a land of opportunity. We came here because of survival. We had to build from the ground up. But the most important thing was Lou and I, we had each other. We had our families, our friends, and our neighbors. We had a shared commitment to build a better life, grounded in love, respect, and purpose. And somehow that’s still not enough. For years, we were told like other Hmong families that Laos in Thailand would never take us back. And that has changed. In June, 2025 the US imposed a partial travel ban on Laos, citing visa overstays, and lack of deportation cooperation. And in response, Laos began issuing these documents under pressure. Today over 4,800, including Hmong, Myan, and the other ethnic minorities are facing removal to Laos and to many other countries, many have never stepped foot in a country that they are now being sent to. Lou is Stateless like many others that is detained with him. None of these countries recognize him. He was born in the Thailand refugee camp, it does not recognize him nor qualify him for any sort of Thai citizenship and I’ll tell you guys right now if forced to return, he will face danger because of his family’s deep ties to the CIA and United States military. Deporting him turns him, a civil servant and respected community leader, into a political casualty, it would be a grave and irreversible injustice. To deport him now is to punish him to death. Once again, 50 years later, as we celebrate resilience this year across the nation, we are now celebrating a fight within our own grounds, right here in United States, right here in Michigan. We’re now fighting the same fight within our own country. Thousands of Southeast Asian Americans, many that entered legally admitted as refugees are being deported for decade old offenses they’ve longed paid for. America is our country. All we ask is the right to stay in the home that we’ve helped to build and work hard to protect. We are not seeking special treatment. We are asking for justice, compassion, and a second chance in this country to claim what we believe in. To Governor Whitmer and members of Congress and all elected officials, please help bring Lou and the many others home. Urge ICE and DHS to release him on humanitarian grounds. Help his case. Help us preserve the integrity of our laws and the dignity of our families. And to the public allies and the media. Please call our elected officials. Please call these offices. Please share Lou’s story. We need voices. Voices louder than ours alone. It is hard times you guys. It is real. And I speak to you from the bottom of my heart. Please help me and our families in the many that are suffering. This is our home. These are our children. This is my husband and this is our fight. Let him come home. Let our families be whole again, and let America keep its promise. Thank you guys for hearing me. Miko: Lou Young is a community leader. Michigan, who actually runs a nonprofit in support of Hmong folks in that community, and is targeted and also has a stay of removal. So we’re doing a targeted campaign for both of these folks, Lou Yang and Mohan Karki, to be able to get them released to overturn their original convictions and they also have spouses that are telling their stories and telling the impact these detentions have had. Because while this current administration talks about getting rid of criminals, what they are actually doing is breaking apart families and community. Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. Coming up is Deporting the Pilgrim from the Anakbayan Long Beach Mayday Mix tape.   Swati Rayasam: That was please be strong, featuring Hushed, loudmouth and Joe handsome. And before that was deporting the pilgrim from the Unec Bayan Long Beach Mayday Mixtape. Now back to the show. Miko: I wanna shift us a little bit to talking about Asian american representation in the larger fabric of immigration justice in the United States. Mostly many of our Asian communities have been like isolated, not really involved in the broader immigration movement. And I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the difficulty and nuance of bringing your community struggle to the forefront because many of us heard about the Venezuelans and the Mexicans that have been deported and what was going on, but we don’t hear as much about these stories of our Asian sisters and brothers. I wonder if one of you could give voice to that. Robin: Before going there can I add something to Miko: of course. Robin: crimmigration conversation? So when you all are sharing about that, I was thinking about, the justice system in this country and what we are seeing right now is a broken justice system. Like you said, Miko, where families are separated where families are broken, and what I don’t understand is, when, let’s say your loved one gets into trouble, makes a mistake, and gets into a trouble, then, as a human being, like, don’t you want your loved ones to rebuild their lives? Like Yes, of course there is a system that you have to follow, the laws that you have to follow, but at the end, I think we all want our loved ones to come back, rebuild their lives, right? And what we’re seeing in this country is they’re constantly breaking the families. And I don’t see how we are going to build a better future when we are constantly, hurting the families. And in the cases of detention and deportation, what we’re seeing is the double punishment. Like the mistakes that they had made, but then throughout their life, they have to go through that, a continuous cycle of being punished. And not just the individuals, but their family members have also go through the challenges, the suffering, right? And in the case of Bhutanese from double punishment to double expulsion to this, the state of being statelessness. Right? So what kind of future we are imagining when an individual has to go through that continuous cycle of being punished and not having the opportunity to rebuild their lives. So that’s a big question mark that I think, we all need to think about. To your later question around my community and the larger Asian American context or the national context. My community is relatively new to this country. We lived, almost two decades in a refugee camp, which was a enclosed camp. And our lives were dependent on foreign aids like UNHCR or ILWF. Pretty much I would say we had our own world over there. And for us to work outside the refugee camp was illegal. There was no laws that gave us the permission to work outside. So we were not pretty much exposed to the outer world. So for us to come to US was a big step. Which means pretty much from basic every day stuffs like, you know, using a bathroom, using a kitchen, taking a bus. All of those were foreign for us. So for our community to really tap into the education system, the political landscape of this country. And also like the experience of being expelled for voicing our, our opinions, for fighting for our rights. Right? So for us, for our community to kind of step in into the politics, it’s like re-traumatizing ourselves. I would say there are a lot of barriers, multi-layered barriers for our community members to really tap into the larger political, like socio political landscape, from language barriers to culture barriers to education, to pretty much everything. So right now, the way our committee has been being attacked. It’s a surprise to the community. And also it is like kind of traumatizing the community and taking us back to the same place of feeling, insecure, feeling like we don’t have a home. And we did hope that this is legally, this is going to be a home. Because after coming to the US most of us became the legal citizens of this country and we started rebuilding our lives. Now it’s kind of like going back to the same circle of statelessness. Miko: Thank you for sharing about that. Kao Ye, would you like to add to that? Kao Ye: When I think of the Hmong American community and even the Southeast Asian community and why the narratives of what is happening still feels very invisible. I think of how our community, we were assimilating for survival. And I speak on that as a child of my refugee parents and siblings where growing up we were taught to, listen, not speak out, not cause trouble. Go through the system, listen to authority, listen to law enforcement. And because of that, I feel it’s shaped a culture of fear. Fear to dissent and fear to speak out because we care so much about the stability of our families. And we wanted to protect ourselves, because of everything we’ve gone through with the war. And we are finding that it’s been challenging for our community members to come forward with their stories. Honestly, we’re still sitting on that and we’re still kind of sitting through like, why is there that tension? You know, I feel like folks are going through a lot and even folks have, our impacted loved ones, but they’re afraid to tell their story because of fear of of retaliation. And so I think that there is a level of, I think that lack of even psychological safety, but real, physical, real financial safety that people have. And I think that being a factor to the assimilation, but also this facade of like the American dream and like if we don’t just disrupt, if we don’t speak out, we will be protected. And, white supremacy, right? Like we will be okay. And it’s a facade because we know that because our communities are the ones getting kidnapped and getting deported. Right. And so I think there is that fear, but there’s also recognition of this now, this facade that the silence doesn’t protect us and that there is a real need for us to really, be strong in speaking out, not just for our SEA siblings that are impacted, but for all of our immigrant groups, even the Bhutanese community, right. That’s been impacted during this time. And so I, yeah, I think it is that multi-layered experience of being a Southeast Asian refugee community on top of, being part of this AAPI umbrella. AAPI we are not homogenous. We all have very unique histories as to how we have dealt with the systems in this country and how we came into this country. And so I think it’s been challenging to make space for those nuances. And at the end of the day, I still see the interconnections that we all have together too. And so, I think it’s the willingness to make space for those different stories. And I am finding that more of our ethnic media, our smaller news outlets are more willing to cover those stories as opposed to, these larger mainstream outlets. Like they’re not covering those stories, but we are. Miko: Thank you. Oh, both of you have brought up so much today about our failed criminal justice system, about us punishing people as opposed to rehabilitating people and punishing them more than once. We brought up questions around statelessness and the impact that it has, and I just recently learned that the United States does not have any policy on Statelessness. So one of the things that this coalition of folks is trying to do is to get a congressional hearing to help the United States develop policy around statelessness, because it is actually our responsibility and our duty to do that. The other thing I hear you both talking about is this good immigrant, bad immigrant trope, which we’ve heard of a lot, but I think that’s also very much connected to why so many members of our communities don’t wanna speak out because this connection with, you know, quote unquote criminal history might be something that’s shameful. And I’m wondering if you both see that as a divide mostly between elders in the community and younger folks. Robin, do you wanna talk about that? Robin: Yeah. I mean, initially when we were mobilizing our community members to fight against the the unjust and unfair detention and deportation, this issue around the perception around good immigrants and bad immigrants became one of the main topic of discussion. We had to deal with people, and mostly elders, but I would say some young folks as well, who would pull themselves back on speaking against this issue because for them people who are being deported or detained are criminals and they deserve this kind of mindset. And not being able to see the larger picture of how the administration is targeting the immigrant and the refugee population of this country and really trying to dismantle community power, right? So, yes, it is a challenge that we are, we’re going through and I think it’s going to be quite a bit of work, to really build solidarity within our own communities. Kao Ye: I feel that the divide in the Hmong community is stemming from class and education. I feel as though when folks are articulating, regurgitating these justifications of the bad immigrant as to why folks should be deported it’s folks that maybe kind of made it in their lives and now they’re comparing themselves to folks that were not in that situation. And there is this growing within our community as well, where some folks are getting that education, getting, good jobs. But so much of our community, we still suffer from poverty, right? And so, I think that has been really interesting to witness the level of division because of class, because of income and also the education piece. Because oftentimes when folks are feeling this, it comes from a place of ignorance as well. And so that’s why I think the education piece is so important. I actually feel though our elders are more understanding because these are their children that are being separated from them. And Robin’s point is that when we have loved ones that go through the system, we just want them to rebuild their lives and be self-sufficient. And I feel like those are the values that I grew up in my community where our parents were always about keeping the family together to a fault, you know? And so they don’t want separation. They just want us to be well and to do well, and to turn our lives around. And so, I feel strongly that our elders, they do understand that the importance of giving this opportunity for us to, to stay together and turn our lives around. Miko: Thank you so much, both of you for joining me here today to talk about this important conversation. I’m wondering if you could provide our audience with how they could find out more about what is going on and what are next steps for our audience members. Robin, let’s start with you. Robin: Yeah. I just wanted to add what, Kao Ye talked about. I do agree the patterns around the divide is based on class. And I do see that in the community, and not just the class, but in our community class and caste, I would say. And in terms of the class, there were some instances where we had to deal with even the highly educated like PhD holders kind of, questioning us like, you know, what we are advocating for, and, I couldn’t understand like, I couldn’t relate the education, the title, the degree that he holds and the perception around this issue. Right. So, I just wanted to echo that. So, in terms of our work and Asian Refugees United, our website is www.asianrefugees.org And you can find us in our Instagram, Facebook, Asian Refugees United. Miko: And you can also get latest news about what’s happening at bhutaneserefugeerights.com. Yeah. And Kao Ye how can folks find out more about your work? Kao Ye: Right now HIP is part of a statewide network in California called the Pardon Refugees Campaign, where we are really pushing Governor Newsom to pardon all refugees, not just Southeast Asians because of everything that we talked about, about how our families, they deserve to stay together. And so, I don’t think we have a website up yet, but you can follow this campaign with us. We will be having a rally and press conference, coming up soon, in the next few weeks. And so, I would say that please follow us in that work where we are really moving in coalition with all of our uh, grassroots partners to advocate for our loved ones that are currently being impacted. Miko: Thank you so much, Robin Gurung, Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong Innovating Politics. Thank you so much for being with us here today, and I hope you listeners out there take action to keep our families together, to keep our people in the communities as loved ones where they belong. Thank you all. Have a great night. Swati Rayasam: I’m so grateful that Miko was able to talk to Robin and Kao Ye. And for those who missed it, visit bhutanese refugee rights.org for the most recent updates on the Bhutanese refugees. The press conference in rally Kao Ye mentioned took place last week on August 21st, 2025, but check out the Pardon Refugees Campaign for updates from the coalition supporting Hmong, Cambodian Laotian, Myan, and other refugees facing deportation. Thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by  Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar,  Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Ravi Grover, and me Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a good night. The post APEX Express – 10.23.25 -And We Become Stateless Again appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. TAKE ACTION Rising Voices campaign for Lue Yang Mohan Karki’s GoFundMe   And please help support these organizations working to support detained and deported folx: Asian Law Caucus Asian Refugees United Ba Lo Project in Vietnam Collective Freedom in Vietnam & Laos Asian Prisoner Support Committee & New Light Wellness in Cambodia November 1–2, people nationwide are joining the Disappeared In America Weekend of Action to stand up for immigrant families and defend due process. Actions include protests at Home Depots, candlelight Freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events honoring lives lost to detention.   The following day, November 3, 4pm Pacific time, 7pm Eastern Time, Join us for “We Belong Here, Bhutanese & Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness” a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. bit.ly/WBH-2025   We Belong Here! Show Transcript Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. This is your host, Miko Lee. Today we’re talking about detentions and potential deportations and the atrocities that the Trump administration is creating in our communities. And today I am so honored to have three guests with me, Tika Basnet, and Ann Vu, and Aisa Villarosa. Tika and Ann they’re part of a horrible club, which is both of their spouses are currently in detention from our immigration system. But I just wanna start on a real personal note in a way that I often do with my guests. Anne, I’m gonna start with you. I just would love to hear from you, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Ann Vue: Thank you again, Miko and Isa, you guys for having me on. So we are Hmong. And we helped Americans during the Vietnam War. And so, during the Vietnam War in Laos, a lot of our pilots needed a communication. And because we’re indigenous and we are in the mountains, they were able to speak with us and use us. And so a lot of our Hmong, what they did or what they contributed helped a lot of the pilots rescued a lot, like thousands and thousands of Americans, really, so that that way they can make it back home, right? And so that is our contribution to the American people. And so when we were brought to America, was to resettle because of humanitarian purpose. Really because of our legacy of helping Americans with the war, right? So that is who we are and what we bring to America. And that’s who I am. I’m, and I’m actually the first generation Hmong American too. So I was born right here in the capital of Lansing, Michigan. Miko Lee: Thanks so much ann. And Tika, can you share who are your people and what legacy you carry with you? Tika Basnet: Yes. Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. So I am Bhutanese Nepali community. My parents and all the Bhutanese, they ran away from Bhutan in 1990 due to the ethnic cleansing. And they came to Nepal, seeking for asylum, and that is where we born. I was born in Nepal, in refugee camp. Even though I was born in Nepal, Nepal never gave us identity. They never give us citizenship, so we were known as Bhutanese Nepali, but as known as Stateless. And yeah, my husband also born in Nepal in a refugee camp. Miko Lee: Thank you, Tika. And Aisa, I’m gonna ask the same question for you Aisa, my friend that works at Asian Law Caucus. Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Aisa Villarosa: So much love to you, Miko and to you Ann and Tika for being here today. I just am, I’m so honored.My name is Aisa and I carry the love and, Maki Baka spirit of Filipino Americans both in my family across the diaspora. A little bit about the Filipino American story. We came to the United States as part of the colonial machine. The first Filipinos were brought as part of the Spanish Gallian trade. We made California home, parts of Louisiana home, and it’s quite a contrast to a lot of the sort of model minority seduction that many of my people, and myself as a younger person tended to fall into that if we kept our heads down, if we were quiet, we would be left alone. I’m struck because at this moment of just unprecedented government attacks, so many of our communities have this story where someone somewhere said to us, yeah, just keep your head down and it’ll be fine. And we’re seeing the exact opposite, that this is the time to really use our voices, both individually and as one. And I’m also an artist and try to infuse that into my work in fighting government systems. Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. And in the interest of fairness, I will say I’m Miko. I am fifth generation Chinese American. I grew up knowing that my family was full of fighters that built the railroads, worked in the gold mines in laundromats and restaurants, and my parents walked with Dr. King and Cesar Chavez and Dolores Huerta, and I was raised in a family of social justice activists. So I feel like our legacy is to continue that work and to fight for the rights of our peoples. That being said, I’m so honored to have both of all three of you powerful women join me today. And as I was saying in the beginning, Tika and Anne are sadly a part of this club. Nobody wants to be a part of this club with the sudden, unexpected, harmful detentions of both of your husbands. I wonder if you can each just share the story about what happened and how you first found out about your husband being detained. And let’s start with you Tika. Tika Basnet: So, my husband got his removal in 2014 when he was like minor. Just 17 years old, high school student going from school to home and, he’s a teenager and with his friend, like they were playing around and they wanna go home really fast. So they just cross from private property. And I think that is where someone saw and call 911. So we came from the culture that we love to go people home , walking around, playing around. So my husband came here in 2011. The incident happened on 2013. So he was just, came here without knowing culture, without knowing languages, So he has no idea. So when somebody called 911, he could not explain what happened. First of all, English is his second language, he was barely here without knowing rules and regulation, without knowing culture. The police get them and then they took him to jail I think police gave a lot of charges. And even until now, my husband doesn’t know what are those charges? At that time, nobody explained, this is the three charges you got, and this could lead to deportation. And he feel guilty without knowing those charges. And just because he trusts Nepali translate guy, and he told my husband, like, if you don’t say I’m guilty, you will end up in prison for 20 to 25 years, but if you say I’m guilty, you’ll go home. And my husband said, guilty. And at that time, neither criminal lawyer told my husband, like, if you say I’m guilty, you’ll end up getting deport. Deport to the contrary that you are you never born. Deport To the contrary, you doesn’t even speak their language. And even the lawyer did not explain my husband like, you will not gonna get your green card. You cannot apply your citizenship in your life. If all of, if those things like the lawyer told my husband at that time, he will never gonna say, I am guilty to the crime that he did not even commit. And so when they tried to deport my husband back then, Bhutan say, he’s not my citizenship, he’s not from my country, We don’t know this guy. He’s not belongs to here. And when US Embassy reach out to, Nepal, do you know this guy? They told, ICE no, we don’t know this guy, like he’s not belongs here. And then the ICE officer, they told my husband, like, we can let you go, you need to come here, like order of supervision every years, every three months, every six months, whenever we call you. And it been 11 years. My husband is following rules and regulation. After that incident, never police arrest him. He did not even get criminal record. He did not even get misdemeanor record. So basically he never did any violation after that. So he was following, he got married, he has a life, he pay taxes. He was taking care of his family and in 11 years he was doing everything. And in 2025 for the first time they target Bhutanese Nepali community. And at that time I knew that this is the last time I’m gonna see my husband. And that is a time I think I broke down. Like, when they detained my husband in April 8, I was eight months pregnant. And um, like we dream a lot of things like, you know, we are gonna take care of our daughter. We are gonna buy home, we are gonna work, we are gonna give her the life that we, I’m sorry. Miko Lee: Totally. Okay. Tika Basnet: So, yeah. Um, like I never thought like Bhutanese community can, like deport. Like my parent already , go through this trauma, you know, when Bhutan throw them away due to ethnic cleansing and same thing happening to us. It is unbelievable. I cannot believe that, we’re going through this again and I don’t know when this gonna be stopped. I don’t know whether like my husband gonna come home. I dunno. Like I’m fighting and it is been five month and I really want my husband back. Like my daughter today is, she’s three month old. She need her dad in life. ’cause I cannot provide everything by myself. My husband is the main provider for her aging parent. ’cause even now they cannot pay bills. Like they have really hard time paying bills. And this is the reason, like I’m fighting for my husband case and I want my husband back. And I think he deserve second chance because if you see his record is clean, like for one incident that happened like 12 years ago, that cannot define my husband. Like who he is right now, you know? So yeah, this is what happened. Like I cannot believe that my husband is able to get deport to the country that doesn’t even accept. And I don’t know whether he gonna get killed. I dunno what, whether he gonna disappear, I don’t know what will happen to him. I don’t know if it is last time I’m gonna see him. Miko Lee: Tika, thank you so much for sharing your story. And just to recap really briefly, your husband, Mohan Karki when he was a teenager, newly arrived in the country, was leaving high school, walked with his friends through a backyard and was suddenly racially profiled. And the neighbor called police because he was trespassing on property.He was born at a refugee camp. Is that right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Miko Lee: And so there was not property that was like person’s property on that refugee camp. So that whole concept of walking across somebody’s land was something he was not aware of. He had an interpreter that did not give correct or full information. And so he signed something, including a deportation order, that he wasn’t actually, wasn’t even aware of until recently when he was put into detention. Is that right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Yes. Miko Lee: And right now he’s in detention. You’re, you live in Ohio, but he’s in detention in Michigan, right? Tika Basnet: Yes. Miko Lee: Okay, Tika, let’s talk about Mohans case and what’s happening. He’s held in detention right now in a detention facility in Michigan. And what is going on with his case? Tika Basnet: Yeah, I don’t wanna say a lot of things about his case, but our attorney, his criminal attorney does file, a Motion to Redeem asking BIA to send that, case back to Georgia and we recently hired, criminal attorney to fight for his case, that happened in 2013. And our attorney just submit documentation where he’s asking to release my husband because it’d been five month. And he’s not risk to the community. He’s not risk to the flight. ’cause he doesn’t have no one in Bhutan. He doesn’t have no one in Nepal. He’s all family is in here. So his community love him ,he has family that loves him. And, we also get lot of documentations as a proof telling ICE officer that my husband is not risk to the community or, to the flight. Miko Lee: Thank you. And he has a new baby, a four month old baby that he has yet to meet. So that is a powerful reason to stay. And as Tikas pointing out, the lawyer just submitted documentation along with 50 letters of support from the community , from employers, from family members, all saying why he should stay in this country. Thank you so much for sharing. And Anne, i’m wondering if you could share about what happened to your husband. He was also born in a refugee camp, right? Ann Vue: So, Lou was born in Nangkai, Thailand refugee camp. In 1978 and in 1979 his parents and him and his older brother received parole for legal entry. I think the exact word was, they were paroled pursuant under section 212D5 of the I and N Act, which means that they are granted urgent humanitarian reasons for or for public benefit. Right. Because my father-in-law had helped and during the war. And so he received his visa in September. I just lookeded back at all of his history there and then they made it to America right before Halloween ’cause my father-in-law was like, I always remembered it because in the country of Asia, they’re scared of halloween, scary Halloween stuff. And so when they came, they were like, oh my gosh. There were, Jesus says, I remember there were just a lot of zombies, right? And we were so scared because we were like, and so I always remember that about, you know, I’ll fast forward it to 1997, right when he just turned, I believe 18 and very similar to Tika, you know, her husband too. And a lot of times, in the early nineties, me even being the first generation American here, racism played a lot. And we all went through that piece and our parents not speaking English at the same time, they were going to school themselves so that they can learn our English language, right. And they weren’t able to teach us growing up. So we had to kind of fend for ourselves. And I would say my husband he went out with some friends. He did not commit the crime. But of course now that is brought back to him, he understood about his particular case is second attempt, home invasion. Nobody was harmed. He was in the vehicle, in the backseat when he was caught. And he didn’t wanna partake, but he didn’t wanna stop them either, you know? ’cause to him it was like, if I don’t partake, then I have nothing to do with it. Right. Because if I do, then they might not be my friends anymore. I mean, it’s just a part of growing up as a youth. But because he was there, and then would receive a court appointed attorney, and then provide it very similar to Tika’s too. Had an interpreter, that was explaining to them, was provided bad legal advice. He had nothing, no knowledge about how this would impact his immigration status. He would take a plea, and it was advised by their attorney, take the plea it’s easier, you know, and you probably serve less than a year. You’ll be out, you’ll only be in the county jail anyways ’cause you didn’t really commit the crime and technically it should have been a misdemeanor. But because you’re an accomplice , that kind of falls under this category. So he took the plea, he served 10 months in a county jail. He actually was released for good behavior. He even finished his probation soon because he paid all of his stuff off. And he even finished a youth advocate program, a youth training program for anybody that committed crimes between the age of 18 to 21. I actually just saw this form the other day and I was reading it and it talks about, you know, the one thing about our parents, experiencing the war and coming to America, they don’t talk about it. And a lot of us are from communist countries . We’re, we are very afraid to voice our voices, because someone can take action. And our parents never talked about it. And I read what he wrote to his, youth coordinator, and he wrote, he felt so bad about what he did. He created disappointment for his parents and he understands now after his parents told him, there are sacrifices that got us here to America. And he literally wrote all of this down, he’s going to be a better person, is what he wrote. I’m going to be a better person. I’m going to make my parents proud now that I understand their sacrifices. And, they asked him, well what was your upbringing like? And in one sentence, he wrote, poor, right? So he wrote, poor and the coordinator wrote on the bottom of his comments said, Lou is remorseful for what has happened or for what ha what has happened, and very remorseful and he wants to be a better person. I have no other questions. The training is complete. He doesn’t need any further, support and believes that he will move forward to be a better person. That’s what literally what they wrote on the document. Then fast forwarding to 1999 , after everything was done and he served, that’s when, immigration showed up at his house. And from there moved forward to explain to him what had happened. And once that happened, of course him and I would meet in 2000, and then we’d be married in 2001. Right? So we’d celebrate. Almost 24 and a half years of marriage. Right? So we did appeal his case in the humanitarian piece of what this meant for Lou during the time where we all fled the country. Once we were, once the monks were declared enemy of the state by the LDR in Laos, we fled. And once we fled, it’s well documented that there was a little bit over 400,000 of us there right after all the genocide and the killings of the Hmong there was probably less than 45,000 of us left, right? And so once we understood a lot of that, we wanted to do better. We wanted to really service our community, right? So. Fast forwarding it. We appealed the case. The case was then denied I believe in 2002. And even in his letters, in his appeal letters, general Vink Powell, which led the, Hmongs during, in the war, even had a letter in there where he, to also pled why Hmongs need to stay here in America, right. And why we need to bring the rest of our people to this country. The reality is our whole family, Lou’s whole family was wiped out. We don’t have anybody, Lou doesn’t have anyone, right? And so you know, that goes to Tikas thing too. There’s nobody there. And, going back to the case once it was denied in 2002, of course he then. Was forced to reach out to the embassy and reached out to the embassy and was denied, entry into Thailand ’cause that’s where he was born. We’re stateless too, just like Tikas husband. We were denied by Thailand. We were also denied by Laos stating that we are not a citizen of theirs. They do not allow or welcome any sort of entry. And then in 2006, that’s when they actually took his green card was in 2006 and then we prompt again we were denied. And then in 2008 we were denied a third time and that’s when his immigration officer was like, just move on and start your life. Laos and Thailand, will never sign a repatriation act with America because of you guys, because of the Hmong people, what you guys have done to their country, making it the most bombed country during the war without even being a part of the war. So therefore, they will never allow you guys or accept you guys back. And so we were like, okay. So we moved forward and then in 2014, this immigration officer, which we was doing yearly checkups at this time, was like, Hey go get your citizenship, get your green card. They’re like you’re doing so good. You know, you probably could have a chance to get it. That’s when we moved forward to apply for citizenship and for all we did for the green card and then for citizenship. And of course we were denied in 2015 and we know how expensive this is. You pay $10,000 outright, you don’t get that money back. You just have to go at it again, right? And so, uh, we decided that, you know what, we’re gonna get his case expunged, and so. We got his case expunged in 2018, no questions asked. It was very straightforward. Once it was expunged, we continued, with our lives. Very involved in the community. And we had all of our children by that time already, so we had six kids already. So fast forwarding to that, and then leading up to his detainment, which this year we even called his immigration officer and he was like, Hey, don’t worry about it, Lou, we’re moving you over to Grand Rapids and you should be fine. Just make sure that you stay outta trouble, continue to follow your stock and I think what triggered it was when we applied for his work permit in April. Because he was supposed to, he always meets his immigration officer at the end of the year, and we renewed his work permit is what triggered it. And so of course, the money was cashed out, everything the checks went through while we were receiving that, he was gonna be here, everything was gonna be fine. And then leading up to July 15th where he was detained at work, early morning of six 30 in the morning, the detained officer they they told him that they know who he is to the community, so they have to do it this way because they don’t want any problems. They don’t want media, they don’t want reporters. He did play with them. He did ask them because he rode his motorcycle for some weird reason. He has not taken his bike out, his motorcycle out in the last three years. But for some reason that night he was like, I just wanna take my bike. So he took his bike that night and when ICE told him, do you have somebody come get your bike? You need to call somebody to come get your bike. And he was like, nobody in my family rides motorcycles. Like we don’t, I don’t have anyone to come get my bike. And I think there was some empathy and compassion for him. He was like, okay, let me check on something. Because my husband was like, can I just take my bike back? I’ve got six kids. I’ve got my grandma at home and my parents are also at my house right now. I just wanna see them and I just wanna take my bike back. So they asked him, if we let you go, we asked will you like please don’t run. Right? And so they followed my husband home and my husband literally called me at 6 37 in the morning and he was like, Hey, ICE is, here they got me. So I’m like, what? What’s going on? So it was just so surreal. I was so shocked. And so it’s about a 30 minute drive from his workplace back to our house. And um, when he got there, um, they, there were already officers, like there were, it was packed tight in our driveway. So our driveway’s pretty far up because we live in the country. And so, there were like five or six cop cars there too. So we had to walk about half a mile down to go see him. They wouldn’t allow him to enter where our home was. And the officer told, my husband, told him that they’re so sorry. They have to do it this way. They know who he is. They don’t want any problems, they don’t want any reports in media out here. And I will say my experience was a little bit different from others. They did take their mask off when they took him in, they were respectful so that part is that much. They even, you know, talk to my two older boys like, “Hey, you guys have money. I could put the money in your dad’s account.” We’re, take him into Grand Rapids, we’re gonna process him, and then we’re gonna take him to the detention center, which is gonna be involved in Michigan. So they were very open about these steps, what they were doing with him, at least that much. But I will say that it was my grandma, of course she has chronic pulmonary disease stage four. So at that point we, we couldn’t haul her fast enough because we only saw him for like maybe a quick minute, and that was it. And so they did ask us to turn around because they had to take him back and they didn’t want my, our little ones to see them cuffing him. Miko Lee: They actually said, Anne, we don’t want any media to be watching this? Ann Vue: I don’t want any problems. Miko Lee: Mm. And and your husband is also quite well known in the Hmong community, right? Ann Vue: He is Miko Lee: and so probably, they were worried about folks coming out and protesting. Is that, do you think that was the case? Ann Vue: That’s what I’m assuming, because I don’t remember their exact words saying media, but I do remember they were saying that they didn’t want people around, they didn’t want to create issues for the community.I am assuming that correct, because if he would’ve gotten the letter just like everybody did, which everybody then would receive the letter on Friday, and because my husband is a community leader, he is the Hmong Family Association’s president, we restart receiving. Many, many calls where everybody just wanted to talk to Lou ’cause they needed to know what’s going on, how to handle, what to do. And so at that moment I realized, oh my gosh, they detained my husband first this way. And then everybody else got a letter. Miko Lee: And the ICE officer that he had been checking in with routinely has, have you all been in touch with that same ICE officer? Ann Vue: He has been, I think in the last seven or eight years.Yeah. It’s been the same guy. Miko Lee: But has he been in touch with him since he was detained? Ann Vue: He hasn’t. Miko Lee: Has not, no. So they had different people come in even, ’cause he was the person that said everything’s okay, keep going with your life. Ann Vue: Oh yeah. Miko Lee: And so no contact with him whatsoever since the detention? Ann Vue: No. Miko Lee: Can you give a little bit of an update of Lou’s case and what’s going on with him right now? Ann Vue: I don’t know as much. Maybe I may have to have Aisa respond to the legality piece around it. ’cause I know we’re, they’ve been doing, working around the clock and working hard on strategy. Miko Lee: Okay. Thank you so much, Aisa. Before we move into that, I just wanna point out, for all of our listeners, how many similarities there are in these two cases. And in both of these, you know, these amazing women are here supporting their spouses, both, spouses born in refugee camps. Dealing with intergenerational trauma from families that had to escape ethnic cleansing or involved in a war, came into the United States under, legal properties through refugee resettlement acts, made mistakes as young people, partially due to culture and wanting to fit in. They served their time, they paid their dues. They were racially profiled to be able to actually be in those positions that they were in. They suffered from incredible immigration policy failure with bad advice, with a system that’s broken. And now both of them are detained. Not yet deported, but detained. Many of the community members have already been deported and they’re facing statelessness. And we’re seeing this not just with Bhutanese and Hmong folks, but with Mien and Lao and Haitian and El Salvadorian. And we could fill in the blank of how many other peoples in other communities are facing this. So, we also know that these private detention centers where people are being held, are making millions and millions of dollars, and it’s connected into our corrupt political system that’s in place right now. We also know and Aisa, I’m wondering if you could, talk about the case, but also about some of the deals that we think have had to be made with Laos and Bhutan in order for these deportations to even take place. So Aisa from Asian Law Caucus, I’m gonna pass it to you to go over some of the legal ramifications. Aisa Villarosa: Of course, Miko, and thank you for it for the context. And there are so many parallels that we as advocates must uplift because this is not the time to be divided. This is really the time to build solidarity that we’ve long known needs to happen. And, and this is really the moment. What Miko is referring to is, uh, largely, um, something that we’ve observed around the travel bans. So. Earlier this year, right around the time that the Trump administration took hold, there was a draft travel ban list that leaked across a number of media outlets, the Times, et cetera, and the same countries we’re talking about today, Bhutan, Laos. These were historically not countries that were subject to sanctions, like the travel ban, and yet here they were. And so a lot of us were scratching our heads and asking, you know, what, why is this happening? Our theory, and this is a theory that is now also manifesting in a number of FOIA requests or Freedom of Information Act requests that are submitted from Asian Law Caucus to departments like the State Department ice, the Department of Homeland Security. Asking the same question that Tika and Anne are asking, which is, how are these deportations even happening? Because they were not happening until this year. And what very likely happened was a bit of a quid pro quo. So in removing Bhutan, removing Laos from this list where they could be sanctioned as a country, there was likely some backdoor deal that took place between the US State Department and Bhutanese officials and the US officials, where essentially there was some form of an agreement that there would be an acceptance or a supposed acceptance of a certain number of folks from these communities. That is why around March, around April for the Bhutanese refugee community, for example, we started seeing pickups very similar to Mohans case, where, many people who had perhaps made some mistakes in their youth or had really old criminal convictions were swept off the streets and thrust into these really rapid deportation proceedings. I don’t even know if proceedings is the right word, because there essentially was no proceeding. You know, the Immigration Court is very much a cloaked process. The immigration judge is kind of judge and jury wrapped up together, which is very different than many of us might turn on the TV and see something like Law and order. An immigration court works a very different way where this piece of paper, this final removal order, basically gives ICE a lot of bandwidth to make these deportations happen. However, that doesn’t mean we should just accept that this is happening. We know that just basic procedures of fairness are not being met. We know, too that in the case of, for example, the Bhutanese community ICE officers have come to the wrong house. And put a lot of people in fear. So racial profiling was happening even before this recent Supreme Court decision, which essentially now condones racial profiling, right? As criteria that the ICE can use. I also just wanted to talk about this trend too, that we’re seeing with so many cases. It happened to Lou, it happened to Mohan, where in someone’s underlying criminal court case, maybe they were given a court appointed attorney. In many cases, they were not told of the immigration impacts of, say, taking a plea. There is a Supreme Court case called Padilla versus Kentucky and basically the law shifted such that in many cases there now is a duty for a court appointed public defender to actually talk to folks like Mohan and Lou about the immigration consequences of their plea. So when Tika mentioned that there’s something called a post-conviction relief effort for Mohan. That’s happening in Georgia. This is very much what that legal defense looks like, where, an expert attorney will look at that very old court record, see if those rights were violated, and also talk to Mohan and make sure did that violation happen and is that grounds for reopening an immigration case. For Lou, there is a really mighty pardoning campaign that’s brewing in the state of Michigan. So in Michigan, governor Gretchen Whitmer does have the authority to in some cases expedite a pardon in process. We’re hoping that this public swelling of support from Mohan will result in a pardon, because importantly, even if Mohans conviction was expunged, which can be very helpful in, for example, state court, arenas, things like, applying for certain jobs. Unfortunately, in the immigration arena the expungement does not have that same weight as say a vacating, or a motion to vacate that criminal record. So it’s super frustrating because, so much of this turns ethically, morally on- do we, as people believe in second chances, and I know most people do, and [00:35:00] yet here we are really. Based on a technicality. I also just want to name too that Lou as a person is both a natural organizer and he is a spiritual guide of his community. So something that many folks don’t know is because of so much of the trauma that Anne talked about, both from, supporting the Americans during the Secret War, many Hmong folks who came to the States, they actually in some cases died in their sleep because of this, almost unexplained weight of the trauma, right? And so it almost underscores. The importance of Lou, not just to his family, but this family is a collective family, right? He’s both a mentor for so many, he’s a spiritual guide for so many. And so you know, him being away from his family, away from community, it’s like a double, triple wound. And then for Mohan, I’d love to uplift this memory I have of , a moment in June when Tika gave us a call, and at that point, Mohan had called Tika and said, they’re taking me, I’m being deported. And at that point, they were removing Mohan from the ICE facility in Butler, Ohio and transporting him to. At first we had no idea. Then we learned it was, toward the Detroit airport or that deportation to Bhutan and Tika was forced to essentially delay her childbirth. It was very much in the range of when she was due to give birth to their daughter. But because the clock was ticking, Tika drove to Butler, literally begged for Mohan’s life as our organizing and advocacy and legal team was trying to get together this emergency stay of deportation. That fortunately came through at the 11th hour. But the fact that Mohan remains in this facility in St. Clair, Michigan, that he’s never held his daughter is unacceptable, is ridiculous. And I think so much of these two cases almost, this invisible brotherhood of pain that I know Ann has talked to me about that. Because Lou right now has been in a couple facilities. He is organizing, he’s doing his thing and actually supporting folks while also just trying to keep himself well, which is no easy feat to do in so many of these facilities. Especially because, in Alexandria, for example, which is a facility in Louisiana. We know that folks are sleeping on cement floors. We know that folks are not being fed, that there’s a lot of human rights violations going on. And here is Lou still continuing to use his voice and try to advocate for the folks around him. Miko Lee: Aisa thank you so much for putting that into context, and we’ll put links in the show notes for how folks can get involved in both of these cases. One is, Rising Voices has a call to action to reach out to Governor Whitmer for that. Pardon in Campaign for Lou. So we encourage folks to do that. And in terms of Mohan, there’s a GoFundMe to help support Tika and the immense lawyer fees, which we discussed that are needed. And also a letter writing campaign to the ICE director Kevin Roff, to try and release Mohan and also Lou. These are really important things that are happening in our community, and thank you for being out there. Thank you for talking and sharing your stories. We really appreciate you. And also, just briefly, I’d love us for us to talk for a minute about how many folks in our Asian American communities, we don’t wanna talk about mistakes that we have made in the past because we might consider that shameful. And therefore, in both of these communities, when we started organizing, it was really hard at first to find people to come forth and share their stories. So I wonder if both of you can give voice to a little about that, the power you found in yourself to be able to come forward and speak about this, even though some other folks in the community might not feel comfortable or strong enough to be able to talk. Tika, can you speak to that? Tika Basnet: Yeah. So what makes me really strong, and I wanna see that my husband case is because he was 17, people can make mistake and from those mistake, if people are learning. Then I think Americans should consider, ’cause my husband did make mistake and I wish that time he knew the rules and regulation. I wish like somebody taught him that he’s not supposed to go somebody else property, like around in backyard. And I wish he was been in the United States like more than one and a half year. I wish, if he was like more than two years, three years. And I think that time he, from high school, he could learn. You know, he’s not supposed to go there. He was just been in the United States like one and a half year just going to high school. Nobody taught him. His parent doesn’t even speak English. Until now, he doesn’t even, they doesn’t even speak, like nobody in our community knew rules and regulation. So no, basically that he doesn’t have guide, like mentor to taught him like, and even though he did make mistake and he’s really sorry, and from those mistake learning a lot, and he never get into trouble, like after 11 years, he was clean, he work, he pay taxes. And I think, that is the reason that I really wanna come forward. You know, people can make mistake, but learning from those mistake that changed people life. And, and I think, the reason that I’m coming forward is because organization like Asian Law Caucus, ARU, and, Miko, a lot of people helped me. You know, they taught me like people can make mistake and, I think we shouldn’t be same. And I really wanna give example to my daughter, you know, that, you are fighting for justice and you shouldn’t fear. I think, what is right is right. What is wrong is wrong. But if somebody’s make mistake and they are not, doing that mistake again, I think the people can get a second chance. And I think my husband deserves second chance and he’s 30 years old. He has a family, he has a wife, children and he deserved to be here. We came here legally, my husband came here. Legally, we, promise that we’ll get home and this is our home. We wanna stay here and I really want my husband be home soon so he can play with her daughter to play with his daughter. Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Ann I wonder if you could talk to the strength that it takes for you to come forward and speak about your husband and your family. Ann Vue: I’m a community leader with my husband too, right? I would say that there was a moment when he was first detained where I was in complete silence. I was so shocked. It took my attorney, Nancy, just talking to me about it. Of course, back to what Aisa said earlier in our communities, we’re afraid. I was so scared. I didn’t know what to do. It took me visiting my husband in Baldwin and letting him know that, hey, a bunch of community members are now reaching out and I think it’s hit our community. And that’s that. At that moment, he was like, you have to say something. You have to say something you have to make noise because you have a, 50% chance, right? We have a 50 50 chance. 50%. They’re gonna send me 50%. You’re gonna feel bad if you don’t say anything, right? 50 here, 50 there. It doesn’t matter. But a hundred percent regret if you don’t say something. I thought about it and he was like, well, go out there, be my voice. He’s like, you’ve always been my voice. You got this right. And so when, I didn’t say no to Nancy. ’cause she really wanted to talk to our rep Mai you know about this. And , Mai and I are pretty close too. And, I just knew if I said anything, Maya’s gonna be like mm-hmm. All the way. Right? So I just let Nancy help me, and my most vulnerable time. And I’m glad that she did. And I’m glad that we did get this out. It is the most important thing for us, and I’ve been, I will say what keeps me going is all of those that have been impacted by this, from people like Tika. I have many, I call ’em sisters. We’re all in a lot of these group chats together. They’ve been also keeping me going. Our amazing team of attorneys and everybody just strategizing through this unprecedented time. It’s really everyone’s voices. I get to talk to Lou daily. It’s definitely not cheap, but he gets to share each story of each person. I believe that everybody has a story and they might not be as lucky as maybe Tika or my husband, but at least now I have their story. I will be their voice. I will tell each person’s story, each name, each alien number that I track down, my husband’s even literally learned how to count in Spanish, just so he can give them like my phone number in Spanish in case they need to call an emergency. Oh, I’m be getting a lot of calls. Right. I would say that that is what keeps me going because I think that Tika and I and many others are, hoping that there is going to be a better day, a brighter day. I hope that everyone can see that, our children are American, right? Our children, they deserve to have their fathers and their mothers. They deserve to grow with these parents. And with that being said, the most important thing to me is they’re not just bystanders. They’re literally the future of America. I don’t want them growing up with trauma, with trying to ask me questions like, well mom, if we’re refugees and we helped, Americans as allies, and we come to this country, why is this payback like this? There’s a moral obligation that has to be there and they’re gonna grow up and they’re gonna be trauma by this. I’ve got children right now that’s been talking about joining the National Guard. It speaks volume about what happens to my husband. He’s championed the Hmong, Michigan Special Gorilla unit, the Hmong veterans here in the last two years, really with helping them through resolutions, tributes, making sure that they have things, that they are out there, that people now know them, they are finally recognized. This puts my husband at great danger by sending him back, because now he’s championed the veterans here. He celebrates our veterans here. So it’s a moral obligation. And I hope Tika, I hope that, and this is to every child, I hope that every child, they deserve their father’s presence. There are many people who don’t even have their father’s presence and they wish their fathers were around. And our fathers wanna be around. And I hope that our daughter, I only have one daughter too, that someday they can, their fathers can be a part of their, the American culture. So I, I hope that. We get that opportunity and I hope that somebody stop being scared, but turn around and help us. Help us. We came here legally, minor stuff, long decade old. Even lose share with me. This detainment has been worse than when he was, when he did time back in 1997. And I just hope that somebody hears our podcast, Miko. Thank you. And, Aisa and Tika. And they turn and they have some compassion and help us because this is the tone that we’re setting for the future of our American children. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Tika, you wanna add? Tika Basnet: Yes, I really wanna talk about what kind of husband Mohan is. Even though like he detained for five month and I cannot. I put lot of money in his account and there was one guy, I think his family cannot support him. And for me, like it is really hard. I’m not working. But even my husband called me like, you don’t need to put like money in my account, but can you please can you please put money in his account? He did not eat food. His family did not have money. I can survive without eating food. But, I think his story is really touching me. And that time, like my husband was crying listening to that guy story in detention center and then I did put like $50 in his account. And my husband is giving person like, he love to give even though, he struggle a lot, even though, he doesn’t know what will happen when he get deport. But, him saying other guy story. Does make him cry. I think this is the reason that I really wanna come forward. My husband is giving person, he’s lovely person, he’s caring person. And that is the reason I wanna come forward. I want people to hear our voice, rather than silent. Because right now people know our story. But if I was silent back , then I don’t know whether my husband was already disappear. I don’t know whether he gonna die torture or maybe he will expel within 24 hours. I have no idea. So I think, my husband is number one support system for me, and I think because of him that I’m here sharing his story and yeah, like for years I had wonderful time with him. We build our dream and until 2025, our dream is destroy. I’m trying to build again. I’m hoping, like my husband is coming home soon and I’m hoping that this will be the last time that he will get detained. I hope that this will be the end. I don’t want him to get detained or deported again. I’m really tired. I don’t know what to do. I’m hopeless. I hope listening to my story and Anna’s story that separating family is not good. Like it is affecting not only one person but his whole community, whole family. We deserve to get our husband back. Because it is not only about the wife that is fighting for husband, it is the children. , They’re so small, they born here and we cannot raise alone, we cannot work. We have things to pay. And paying those bills and taking care of child alone is really difficult. It is giving depression like it’s been five month, like I went through postpartum depression, I went through trauma and I don’t wanna deal anymore. Like I don’t have courage to do this anymore. We need our husband back. Miko Lee: Thank you. And I think both of your husbands are also main caregivers for parents that are ailing in both cases. It’s a really important thing that we are intergenerational communities and as you both said, it’s not just about the children, but it’s also about parents and brothers and sisters and community members as well. Thank you so much for lifting up your stories. I just wanna go back for one more thing. We talked briefly about the crazy expensive lawyer fees that have come up for families that they’ve been dealing with this, and then also Tika was just bringing up about detention and commissary fees. Can you talk a little bit about the prison industrial complex and the fees that are associated? As Anne was saying, just calling Lou every day the costs that are associated with those things. Many people that don’t have a family member that’s incarcerated don’t know about that. Can you share a little bit about what that system is? Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, absolutely Miko. And, just to underscore, a big theme from this conversation, it is that the US made commitments and they have broken them, both with, as Anne talked about, the refugee experience is one that is made possible through US commitment of acknowledging what, people have survived, what they have given to the country. And to look at this moment where folks are being removed to countries where not only do they have zero ties to, don’t speak the language, but, especially in the case of the Bhutanese refugee community, as Tika mentioned, it is [00:52:00] truly a double expulsion. So the fact that we have well-documented testimonials of folks really deported from Bhutan after they’re removed there into these life-threatening conditions that in some cases have actually resulted in a community member passing away. A community member passed away in large part because of the failure of the US to both care for them while in detention. So going back to that prison complex, but also just putting them in such a harrowing situation. In another instance, a community member was found after wandering for over a hundred miles on foot. So this is not, deportation and the story ends. This is deportation. And, there is a family that is grieving and thinking through next steps, there is, this call to not have borders, break us the way that this country is trying to do. And to say a little bit about the fees, USCIS, there, there has not been a point yet in history where so many changes and charges hurting families have been ushered in, But for this year, and so to give a couple examples of that – asylum cases for one, these often take many, many years through this administration. Now, families have to pay a cost yearly for each year that your asylum application, languishes because we’re also seeing that those same folks who are supposed to process these applications are either being laid off or they’re being militarized. So something like USCIS where this was where one would go to apply for a passport. Now the same department is literally being handed guns and they’re now taking folks during naturalization interviews. Other avenues to challenge your removal. Like I mentioned a motion to reopen. All these things used to be fairly affordable. Now they can cost many thousands of dollars on top of the attorney fees. So something that’s been quite challenging for groups like Asian Law Caucus where we do have attorneys representing folks in removal proceedings, there’s often this misperception that oh it’s costing so much money. Attorneys are pocketing cash. And unfortunately there are some situations where some attorneys have been known to take advantage of families in this desperate moment. But for many, many attorneys who are in this mix, they’re experts at this work. They’re trying to do the right thing. They’re both overwhelmed and they’re seeing these new charges, which make the battle really even more difficult. So to turn it back to the listeners, I would say that as powerless as this moment can make us feel everyone is bearing witness. Hopefully the listeners today can take in Anne’s story, can take in Tikas story and whatever power one has in their corner of the world, this is the moment to use that. Whether it’s your voice, whether it’s learning more about a community, maybe you’re learning about for the first time. This is really the moment to take action. Miko Lee: Thank you Aisa. I really wanna thank you all for being here with me today, for sharing your personal stories, your personal pain, and for recognizing that this is happening. We deeply believe that we need to keep our families together. That is really important. It is written into the very basis of this American country about redemption and forgiveness. And this is what we’re talking about for incidents that happened, misunderstandings that happened when these folks were young men, that they have paid for their, they have paid for their time, and yet they’re being punished again, these promises that were broken by this American government, and we need to find [00:56:00] ways to address that. I really wanna deeply thank each of you for continuing to be there for sharing your voice, for protecting one another, for being there and standing up for your family and for our community. Thank you for joining me today. Check out our Apex Express Show notes to find out about how you can get involved. Learn about the Rising Voices campaign for Lou Young and Mohan Khaki’s GoFundMe and please help to support these organizations working every day to support detained and deported people. Asian Law Caucus, Asian Refugees, United Balo Project in Vietnam. Collective Freedom in Vietnam and Laos Asian Prisoner Support Committee and new light Wellness in Cambodia. November 1st and second people nationwide are joining the Disappeared in America Weekend of Action to Stand Up for Immigrant Families and Defend Due Process. Actions include protests at Home [00:57:00] Depots, candlelight, freedom Vigils, and Day of the Dead events, honoring lives lost to detention. The following day on November 3rd, 4:00 PM Pacific Time, 7:00 PM Eastern Time. Join us for We Belong here, Bhutanese and Hmong Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness, a live virtual event featuring my three guests tonight, along with performances and conversations. Find out more in our show notes. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great night. The post APEX Express – 10.16.25 – We Belong Here appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – September 25, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee speaks with author, activist Michelle MiJung Kim about her new Podcast, I Feel That Way Too. Then we listen to the first episode. Michelle MiJung Kim Website I Feel That Way Too podcast     I FEEL THAT WAY TOO show Transcript Miko Lee: Welcome to APEX Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight I’ll be talking with author, speaker, and activist, Michelle MiJung Kim, about the new podcast. So we get to listen after the interview to the very first episode, and you get a little behind the scenes with activist Michelle MiJung. Kim, stay tuned. welcome, Michelle MiJung Kim to Apex Express. I’m so excited to chat with you. You are an award-winning author, activist, and now a podcast host. Hello girl. Welcome. Yay. Michelle MiJung Kim: Hello. Thank you so much for having me, Miko. I’m so excited. Miko Lee: I wanna start with my big question, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Michelle MiJung Kim: Hmm. What a deep question that I can go on forever about. My people are, first and foremost people who are in my life, who have supported me throughout. Everything that I’ve gone through in my life, including my friends and family who have different lineages, people, most of the people that I hold near and dear carry with them, a deep understanding of their historical trauma, their familial trauma, and people who are courageous enough to share them [00:02:00] with me. So that really creates this bond that I have with my people. A lot of my people are in the queer and trans community and in the physical space of the Ohlone land, also known as Oakland, California. A lot of my community rooted in my Asian American identity. Miko Lee: Love this. My follow up, what is the legacy you carry with you from your people? Michelle MiJung Kim: The legacy that I carry from my people that jumps out to me right now is the legacy of my grandparents. My grandparents were both born in Korea. My grandpa from the north, my grandma from the south, and I am always thinking about how my grandpa was fighting for the Korea’s liberation from Japanese occupation, and he was a writer himself. I always saw him writing and he had [00:03:00] stacks of paper ready to be published, but he ended up not being able to publish before he passed. So my book dedication starts with my gratitude to my grandparents and my grandpa specifically. The legacy of his work, his spirit, his love for philosophy, social justice language I carry with me. My grandmother, who was part of the first class of women in her generation to go to a university she was a badass matriarch of our family and her energy, her audacity, her courage, her confidence in her herself and her community is what I try to channel. I think about them every day. Miko Lee: Ugh. I love that. I’m wondering if you could share a little bit about your book. Michelle MiJung Kim: My book is called The Wake Up Closing The Gap Between Good Intentions and Real Change and really it’s part memoir, part [00:04:00] principles of Social justice that I hold near to my heart. I really wanted to write a book that could be timeless and that could put into accessible ways how we can embody these values that are important for our collective liberation. So much of the social justice work that I encountered throughout my education journey had been highly intellectualized and theoretical and sometimes not unpacked in ways that feel human. I wanna see how people are struggling to hold social justice values while living their daily lives. How sometimes it gets challenging to embody the values that we say are important to us because it asks us to trade off our comfort and safety sometimes. I wanted to be really honest about my experience trying to live in alignment with my values, including the parts of my own contradictions and struggles and paradoxes that I’ve had to navigate. Miko Lee: Such a powerful [00:05:00] book for the time of now in that it does have the personal story, but then also recognizing what’s happening in our world. It’s really action forward. Tell me how you got from this book to creating a podcast series called. I feel that way too. Tell me what inspired this whole series? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think it is an extension of the work that I’ve been doing, which really marries personal storytelling and social justice values. I Feel that way too, exploring these tricky life questions like, can we be friends if we politically disagree? What if I’m not above revenge, even though I am a self-proclaimed abolitionist? Why do I have this urge to, be vengeful and why do I feel gleeful when people that have done harm get punished, right? Am I supposed to sleep with one person for the rest of my life? Am I a bad daughter? These are all the questions that I’ve struggled [00:06:00] with. I wanted to have an opportunity to unpack them with raw honesty and with guests that could really help guide me in thinking about these things while trying to stay tethered to my values around social justice. I’ve always been a fan of audio storytelling. So this was the perfect opportunity to explore that, especially in an era where the world is constantly insisting we solve these issues in isolation and we deal with our traumas in shame and without each other’s witnessing. This is my way of hopefully making people feel a little bit less alone in their struggles and also in a way that, helps us to build more courage and community through stories. Miko Lee: I binge the entire season. Super fun, super personal., I was wondering how did you decide on these topics? Did they come naturally [00:07:00] or did you create an arc? Tell me about your process. Michelle MiJung Kim: I had probably two, three pages long list of topics that I wanted to explore and we had to pick and narrow it down. I wanted to tackle questions that felt existential in the collective psyche. I look at and feel into the zeitgeist of what is happening in the world . These are the questions that I wanted to explore because of my own life, but also some of these questions bring up a lot of shame and tension. when I looked at other podcasts that were exploring similar topics, I just felt as though a lot of these issues were being talked about in a very intellectualized way, in a very theoretical way without the raw sort of personal storytelling aspect that I was craving. So this was my attempt at being, courageous and practicing what I preach and being able to share some of the more vulnerable [00:08:00] tensions that aren’t typically explored in the public arena. Miko Lee: Oh wow. So two whole more pages for future seasons of shows to do. I was, struck by how vulnerable the episodes are, how they’re so personal. The first one being around, supporting your single mom and around financial and really emotional stability that really struck me as being so very personal and deep. I just wonder, has your mom and dad listened to the series or particularly that episode and what has been any response? Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. Um, my dad, no, but my mom, yes. I wanted my mom to listen to it before it aired. ’cause I thought that was the only fair thing to do. I gave her the option also to not have this air if she didn’t want it to go live. And I was. So [00:09:00] scared about how she was gonna receive it. And for the listeners, the story really goes deep into my struggle around prioritizing her needs over my desires, and constantly living in this. Feeling of guilt for not doing more to support my mom. And also our definition of love and sacrifice being entangled in ways that feel sometimes impossible to navigate. I had attempted to have this conversation years ago with my mom that like completely backfire that I talk about on the podcast and, since then, I just never broached the subject because I was so nervous about how she was gonna take it. , And my biggest fear was her feeling less loved and feeling, hurt by my honesty. And so when it came time for me to present this podcast to her, I was incredibly nervous. What ended up happening was we ended up listening to the episode together. She was sitting [00:10:00] right there on the couch behind me and the, I played the episode and I just couldn’t look at her face. So instead of looking directly at her, I had my camera on , so I could look at her through my phone. And I had my back toward her, and within the first five minutes she started crying. So I would pause the episode, talk to her about what was coming up for her. We would cry, we would fight, we would argue, we would apologize and we would cry again. So the entire episode that’s 30 minutes long, took us three hours to get through. Miko Lee: Wow. Michelle MiJung Kim: It was incredibly difficult emotionally. And it was probably one of the most pivotal interactions I’ve ever had with my mom. I’ve been able to be more honest than ever with her. [00:11:00] She got to also be honest in her reaction and response, and we were able to be really brave with our vulnerability, which we had never done because most of our lives, our love and , especially our pain was communicated through silence. Just pretending that we’re not hurting because we don’t wanna hurt the other person. Very Asian. It was hard, very Asian, but it was also really healing. Miko Lee: Wow. I would love, love, love a follow up episode with you interviewing your mom. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I don’t if request that. Miko Lee: I dunno if she’d be downed for that, but that would, I’m curious if you could share a little bit more about your needing to have your back toward her in the beginning and if that shifted over those three hours. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah. I think it was my fear of my truth being seen by her , and the inability for me to face her [00:12:00] when I knew my truth was hurting her. Hmm. And I also didn’t want to pressure her to react in a certain way when I’m looking at her. So I, I, I don’t know if she knew that I was looking at her through my phone. But I think I really wanted her to have an honest reaction and, that scared me. So I, and so at some point in. Yeah, I did turn around after I saw her crying. I paused the episode and I looked at her and I said, well, what’s coming up for you? And she, her first thing, the first thing that she said was, I just don’t remember it that way. Which started a whole nother conversation right around how she remembers my childhood, from her vantage point. And I think it’s only natural for a parent, for anyone to want to know that their child, was not [00:13:00] hurt by their choices and that they did the best that they could and that was enough. And I think it’s really hard to make space for the possibility that their best. Also cause harm. Hmm. Without making them, one dimensionally a bad person or a bad mother. I think holding multiple truths like that can be so difficult , for anyone, but especially when it comes to the impact that our action has on our loved ones. Mm-hmm. So I think it was truly, shattering the image of what she thought was our childhood. And rewriting an entire history in her mind, in order to make space for my reality. And I think that took a lot of courage on her part, and also a lot of grace, that she had to extend to herself and me. Miko Lee: And by the end of that three hours, did you have a sense of resolve or a different [00:14:00] path moving forward? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think we didn’t come to a hundred percent agreement on what happened, which I didn’t expect. But there was certainly things that were said that we had never verbalized before around what was hard, what was painful, and what we kept from one another. And I think we needed time away from each other to really process that. So I think we did the best that we could. Actually that night we went to a concert together ’cause we already had tickets and we could not go. And we went, Miko Lee: what was the concert? Michelle MiJung Kim: We went to a K-pop concert, Bada, which is Miko Lee: Oh yeah. Michelle MiJung Kim: All like dancing. Miko Lee: Love her. Michelle MiJung Kim: So we just let out all of our angst , dancing and that was a good end to our night. Miko Lee: That’s a great way to actually resolve dance it out. Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, exactly. We just dance it out. And then, at first it was a little awkward, but, we got over it. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Afterwards, she listened to the podcast on her own with a transcript because her first language is not English. She really wanted to make sure that she understood what she listened to. So she had the transcript in front of her and she was looking up words that she didn’t understand. She said that really helped her to understand more of what, I was trying to say. I didn’t expect this, but weeks later she just randomly said, I am really sorry. I did the best that I could and I didn’t know how much you were carrying. That changed everything for me. I didn’t expect that kind of acknowledgement and validation from her when I was putting out this episode when I was writing it. I truly just wanted to do justice to my own truth and make space for my stories in ways that I’d never done before. But to then receive her acknowledgement, of some of the things that [00:16:00] I talked about was. Truly invaluable and healing in ways that I didn’t expect. That completely changed our relationship. I’m able to be a lot more honest with her and I feel less, guarded about, the most tender parts of me when I’m around her. Miko Lee: Wow, that’s so powerful that one episode. How impactful. Thank you so much for sharing about that. the topics that rose to the top in your conversations? Every single one of them had such universality, the Oxford study then the talking about Gaza and the impact on your job, being friends with somebody that you disagree with politically, each of these topics, there’s so much resonance. I’m wondering of the three pages you had to choose from, how did these float to the top? Michelle MiJung Kim: It was a tough one. I had a team that I talked to about which topics to prioritize and we all got votes [00:17:00] on which ones we wanted to talk about. Some I had to really push to get it in to the season. The one about, my open relationship journey, they were like, why the hell do , we wanna talk about this? For me it was like, it’s not about how to do open relationship 101 or how to do poly 1 0 1. It’s actually about desire. Right. How we get in touch with our desire and practice wanting and being able to practice wanting that is at the core of that episode. I really wanna talk about it because no one else was talking about it. Miko Lee: I appreciated that episode because it was about autonomy. Like how do you hold on to who you are as an individual? To me, I didn’t look at it as much about poly as much as it about who am I and how do I hold on to my belief in who I am even in the midst of being in a relationship. Michelle MiJung Kim: Absolutely. Exactly. I think I wanted to prioritize topics that weren’t popular in terms of the public discourse, not ’cause [00:18:00] it’s not something that people are grappling with, but because it’s tricky to navigate. Because it requires a lot of nuance and often I think when we talk about desire or when we talk about personal wellness and self-development, it’s so often done through the lens of, white co-opted, self-help culture. I wanted to do it in a way that felt more in alignment with my values around social justice. I picked the topics that were less explored through that lens, but also that, I felt were present in our public zeitgeist and in the cultural musings. Some of these topics were also timely. Like the one about my job loss due to Palestine or my struggle with my friendships that were breaking all over the place because of our political disagreement or the conversation around [00:19:00] abolition and conflict, navigating conflict in our own lives that map to our vision of the collective liberation Miko Lee: and the contradictions that we hold. Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly, and the contradictions that we hold and that we have to make room for that often get, muted or disregarded because it’s uncomfortable to talk about or that makes us feel less radical, less critical, less social justice-y And I think these are actually quite urgent topics that we need to talk about in order for us to create more, coalitions, more resilient relationships that is at the foundation of all of our organizing. Whether that is, you know. Or in our political work or personal, , living in alignment with our values. So I felt these were also timely conversations that needed to be had in a way that felt accessible, personal, and honest, that wasn’t overly packaged up. So that people can [00:20:00] resonate with the raw struggles. Miko Lee: I also appreciate how you put listeners voices in at the end and just with their perspectives, because as you’re talking about, for instance, the breaking up with friends because of political differences, then we’re hearing other people’s voices about their experiences. So how did you do those call out for those voices and did you identify specific topics you wanted colleagues to speak on? Michelle MiJung Kim: Yeah, so we did a call out for voicemails for every episode, and it was so important for me. I kept pushing our team to do it, even though we were running out of time and resources. They were like, no, we gotta cut this part out. And I was like, no, because the podcast is called, “I Feel that way too” and it’s about, not just me, but how my story then gets reflected by the entire community. I wanted to make sure that the community voices become a part of this episode. I did a call out on my social media, on my newsletter, and it was actually quite hard to get people [00:21:00] to submit voicemails. I think people feel a lot of pressure to get it perfect. I asked my friends and they said they wanted to do it, but they were feeling pressured because they feel, they felt like they didn’t know what to say and they wanted to say it in a way that felt professional. And so Miko Lee: come up with something profound. Michelle MiJung Kim: Exactly. They wanted to be profound and everything that we do, I think takes a level of courage. I really appreciated people who submitted their voicemails. Miko Lee: Yeah. Michelle MiJung Kim: We had voicemails coming from New Zealand, from Taiwan, from the United States from Canada, and so it was wonderful to know that there was a global sort of connection to these issues and the things that we are grappling with, and also knowing that we’re none of us is really alone. Miko Lee: Speaking to the alone, we’re living in such a time of isolation right now and where there’s two different parties with really clear agendas and people are this way or [00:22:00] people are that way, and yet your title is, “I feel that way too”. Can you share a little bit about where that title comes from? Michelle MiJung Kim: I was part of my very first high risk direct action calling for an end to the genocide in Palestine, I was terrified and I decided to partake in it because I didn’t know what else to do to process my anger and my desperation, watching what was happening unfold on my screen. I just felt like I had to do something more than what I was used to doing, whether it’s donating or signing petitions or writing. There was a collective gaslighting during that time where the media outlets were justifying what was happening in Gaza. People were being, retaliated against for talking about Palestine. There was this overall, polarization between people who felt this [00:23:00] urgent need to do something about Palestine versus people who are living their daily lives as if nothing was happening. I went to participate in this direct action, I was surrounded by people who felt similarly, and after this really intense action took place when everybody was highly activated and charged because we had just seen our comrades be arrested and then released, and we were, just in our adrenaline. We all held hands to chant together collectively. And the chant went like this. ” Don’t worry, I got you. I feel that way too. We’ll get through together, we’ll make our way through.” And when the chant leader said, I feel that way too, something in me broke and I just started weeping. In that moment, I just needed to feel like I wasn’t alone in feeling this kind of [00:24:00] desperation, this type of pain and trauma, and anger towards our systems, and that just holding hands with complete strangers. Chanting, I feel that way too. Made me feel so much more grounded and hopeful and courageous to a point where I felt I was able to take more risks than I was comfortable with. So that’s where, that’s the origin of the phrase. I feel that way too, for our podcast. I just think back to that moment where I felt so seen, I felt so held and encouraged just by the sentence. I feel that way too. That’s the kind of feeling that I hope to be able to gift to our listeners, whoever’s listening to our podcast and whatever topic may be. I hope more people feel encouraged by the stories that we share and the way that we are creating space for us to be vulnerable and courageous together. Miko Lee: I [00:25:00] love that. So you’re asking your audience to listen, feel connected to something else, be able to be part of a bigger movement. Are there other things that you want your audience to ponder or to take action on? Michelle MiJung Kim: I think the podcast really is about, community and courage. The podcast asks us to be courageous about identifying what we want, about how we want to live our lives, who we want to be, and being courageous enough to face the contradictions and make space for the collective, and connection. I would love more than anything for people to feel seen. But also feel encouraged to share their stories with people in their lives and to hopefully be able to take action together. I think the action of caring for one another in this vulnerable, honest way, the way that my mom and I got through that very difficult conversation. That [00:26:00] in and of itself is healing. Multiple generations of trauma. If we all could muster up the courage to practice that level of honesty and courage with one another, so much of our, need to heal can be met and so much more possibility emerges from that action. After airing some of the episodes, we also hosted a discussion session. Called the Courage Collective, where we got to discuss and unpack what came up for people after they listened to the episode, and that was incredible. Just being able to have a consistent space where people can meet provided that sense of community that we all need right now to be able to move in solidarity with our broader movement , and to sustain this very difficult, exhausting path that we’re all walking in our personal lives, but also in our collective lives. I hope people can listen to the podcast and share with somebody that they wanna talk about the topics and keep the [00:27:00] conversation going in a way that can encourage you to take action that brings you closer to more community, more possibilities for our collective liberation. Miko Lee: Michelle MiJung Kim, thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. We’re gonna put a link to the entire series in our show notes. where else can they find out more information about you and your work and your book. Michelle MiJung Kim: Everything you need to know about me on my website, www.michellemijungkim.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and follow me on social media, on Instagram at Michelle Kimkim or on LinkedIn. Miko Lee: Love it. Thank you so much for joining me. So now take a listen to the first episode of, “I Feel that way too.” Michelle MiJung Kim: The other day I was talking to my mom about my uncle, her older brother who has stage four lung cancer. My mom was [00:28:00] venting about how upset she was that her brother’s kids weren’t jumping at the opportunity to pay his hospital bills. She said he sacrificed his whole life for them. How could they do this to him? I mean, they have their own lives too, mom. One of them has a little kid. It’s not exactly cheap to raise kids in Korea. So I don’t know. It feels fair to me that they’re talking about what they can or can’t afford. My mom was not having it. She said they have their whole lives to be there for their kid, but their dad, he doesn’t have that much time left. They should do everything they can to support him. Wait, were we talking about love or money? My mom knew there was a difference right after a few back and forths. I just asked her the question that I really wanted to ask. Do you think uncle feels like his kids [00:29:00] don’t love him because they’re not giving him money? It wasn’t just a question about my uncle and his kids. It was a question about me and my mom. About love and sacrifice, after all, isn’t our willingness to sacrifice the ultimate measure of our love. Hi, and welcome to, I Feel That Way Too, a podcast where we ask some of life’s trickiest questions and together find the courage to unpack them one story at a time. If you’ve ever wondered how life could be different, but didn’t know where to turn, I’m here to tell you, you are not alone. I feel that way too. Ever since I was young, I felt responsible for taking care of my single mom. You know, growing up seeing her sacrifice so much for [00:30:00] me and my younger sister. When I got older, I just thought, yeah, that’s my job now. That’s just what you do, right? Whether it was taking a soul sucking corporate job, or using my savings to relocate her from Korea. I took the responsibility for caring for her seriously. I took pride in it. Whatever sacrifice I had to make felt appropriate, given how much I love her and how much she’d given up to raise me. But as an adult, I’ve been struggling with this more and more. If the only way I can express my love is by showing how much I’m willing to sacrifice, then how can I ever prioritize my own desires and needs? What do I do with all the guilt and shame and resentment that comes from feeling burdened by this responsibility? Have I become so Americanized that the idea of al piety feels suffocating? Am I a bad daughter? I mean, [00:31:00] that’s such a common experience. This can be even more complicated in immigrant families because often we have those values, right? Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Asian values, filial piety, or we see fism as a really big value in immigrant households. So putting other people first, prioritizing the family over the individual, that’s a hedged core Coley. She’s a therapist, writer, and founder of Brown Girl Therapy, the first and largest mental health organization for children of immigrants. I’ve been following her on Instagram for years now, and I love the fact that she’s making mental health relevant and accessible for Asian Americans like me, like learning Speaker 3: about words like enmeshment. So enmeshment is this idea that there are very loose or no boundaries within. Relationship. So in the family system, if we’re talking about families, there are no boundaries. There is research that suggests that immigrant families tend to be more enmeshed because they’re actually trying to protect themselves and their loved ones, creating these insular communities and [00:32:00] families from harm from the dominant society. So it was adaptive initially, but of course, just because it’s adaptive doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy. We can see now that that kind of loose boundaries can lead to people feeling really dependent on one another. So often that’s it’s hierarchical in immigrant families, so it’s a top down of dependency, but then children are being dependent on more, depending on your birth order, your age, your gender, your being dependent on in different ways. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Becoming someone my mom can depend on was kind of my life purpose for a long time. My attention was always on what she needed and how I could provide that as a kid. I rarely asked my mom for anything that wasn’t practical or necessary. She was a single working mom, and I could see how hard she was working just to keep us afloat. Instead, I tried to help however I could. I’d hand over my New Year’s allowance from my aunties and uncles. Whenever we went out [00:33:00] to eat, I’d always check the prices on the menu to make sure I wasn’t picking something too expensive. I worked hard in school, got good grades, and told myself, this is how I can help. I’ll get into a good college, land a good job, and make enough money to take care of her. That’s exactly what I did. Right after college, I jumped into corporate America instead of chasing my passion for social justice because. At the time, what mattered most was bringing my mom to the US and supporting her financially. And honestly, I was proud of myself for that, starting so young, being able to help my mom. It felt good. Looking back though, I realized that I never really let myself just want things, you know, like things just for me. And then in my thirties, something started to shift. I found myself really struggling with our relationship. I was having trouble differentiating my desires from her needs. Speaker 3: So in the Western world, we talk about [00:34:00] individuation. When you’re an adolescent, you were growing up and you start to build your unique interests and you start to prioritize your friends and you start to be your own person. A lot of us immigrant children didn’t really get that we were still expected to do X, Y, and Z, so we didn’t really get that chance to individuate around that age, you know, as we’re 12, 13, up until 19, 20, 21. And so a lot of us are doing that later in life. I work with clients who are 30, 40, 50 years old who are like, wow, this is the first time I’m doing something for myself. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: At every crossroads in my career, my decisions were often tied to one question. How will this affect my ability to support my mom? Can I quit my job? How much money do I need saved up to cover both of us for six months? Even little decisions like whether to make a frivolous purchase came with this gnawing sense of responsibility. That kind of mental math had become second nature, but prioritizing my own joy and [00:35:00] abundance. Well, that always came with a side of guilt. It felt like my entire life was split in two. One part lived for me and the other for my mom, and as I got older, the tension between the two only grew becoming harder to navigate and more emotionally draining. Sahe calls this parent child role reversal parentification. Speaker 3: At the root of it, there are two types of parentification. There’s instrumental parentification, which is more about taking care. In more practical roles of the family. So maybe, you know, cooking for sick relatives or making sure your younger siblings were okay, or if you were a latchkey kid, left at home alone, you know, going to school one time, making your bed, all of these things that you had to do for yourself or for your family because maybe your parents were out working or just weren’t able to do it. And then we have emotional parentification, which is more about taking on those emotional roles. So being the family mediator, maybe taking on the role [00:36:00] of a parent or a spouse for one of your parents, because either one parent isn’t more present or because emotionally they don’t have the type of relationship where they speak to each other more emotionally or vulnerably. So a parent might use a child to do that. It’s also about generally managing your parents’ feelings. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: One year after many years of working with my therapist, I mustered up the courage to set some financial boundaries with my mom. Not necessarily because of money, but because I needed to shed the guilt. That gnawing feeling that whatever I was doing was never enough and that there was always more to give. I thought if I can get my mom to tell me the exact amount that she actually needs, then I can finally know that I’m meeting her expectations and I don’t have to wonder if I’m not doing enough. I could handle the financial responsibility, but I didn’t wanna carry the emotional weight anymore. So one day at a [00:37:00] posh new Indian Fusion restaurant that I thought she’d like, I mustered up the courage to ask her, can you tell me exactly how much you need monthly so I can better budget my own finances? Up until then, I was paying her rent and giving her allowance in random amounts, paying for whatever needs arose at various times throughout the month. She was visibly perturbed by my question. Without looking at me, she said, just give me whatever you can. I insisted, no, mom, I want you to tell me what you need and want. She replied, I just want you to do what feels good and right for you. I said, I don’t know what that is, so I need you to tell me. I was getting frustrated. She was getting uncomfortable, so I said. Okay, fine. So if I said $500 per month, that’s okay with [00:38:00] you. She looked visibly worried. See, so you know what you need. Why won’t you just tell me, make my life easier? She burst into tears. Why are you making me say an amount? You want me to feel shame? I already feel bad now. We were both cry, yelling. People at other tables were exchanging awkward glances. She said, don’t make me say an amount out loud. I want you to support me because you love me and because you want to, not because I’m asking you to. At this point, my voice was near full volume, tears dripping down my face from knowing I had caused her pain, but somehow my untamed anger kept spilling out. Despite knowing full well that I had done enough damage to my mom’s heart, I desperately needed her to see my pain too. I shouted, [00:39:00] I do love you, and I’m asking for your help. Why can’t you just help me? I never got my mom to say an amount. It was as if I had spoken the very thing that needed to remain unsaid. By speaking the unspoken. I had broken the delicate dance we’d been doing for decades where love meant anticipating needs and quietly fulfilling it to save face. Where protecting meant pretending not to see the weight we each carried, because naming it would make it all too real. Silence had become our shared language of care, but now we were at a loss for words. We packed up our untouched food without speaking and left the restaurant, and I never brought up the topic again. And here I was wanting her to tell me exactly what she needed so that I could feel less [00:40:00] guilt for feeling like I’m not doing enough, even though I was doing a lot. Speaker: Mm-hmm. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: And so we were at this crossroads and we couldn’t see past each other’s pain and our own pain in being able to connect to one another. And since then I’ve been really hesitant to bring up. Any conversations around money or boundaries with her, because first and foremost, I’m terrified of her feeling like she’s not loved. That somehow if I bring this up, she’s going to feel more like she’s a burden and she’s going to stew in her own shame knowing that I don’t think she has. Capacity and the skillset to be able to hold her emotions right now. And then I feel resentful that I have to think through what she needs before I can just be a child and tell her to meet me where I am for once. Right? Mm-hmm. And so then the cycle just continues and I am not sure I, I know how to get out of it. Speaker 3: Boundaries is such a like. Trigger [00:41:00] word for so many of us, right? When you hear the word boundaries, you’re like, no. All of a sudden that door closes and you say, this is not something that’s gonna speak to me. Because it has this reputation of being like, cut people out. Say no, protect yourself. And those narratives really don’t speak to so many of us who come from collectivist backgrounds where. We want to maintain a lot of these relationships. We just don’t want it to feel as bad as it does. And so disentangling and learning how to disentangle our feelings and our values from our parents is often the work I do with my clients. And it takes a long time, right? Because you are sitting down, sifting through a basically a pile of values, norms, expectations, feelings, and saying, okay, this one belongs to me. This one belongs to my mom. This one belongs to my dad. And trying to figure out. Where does that leave you, and how do we move forward and build the sense of self with things that actually feel true to you? And a lot of that work is painful. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Trying to disentangle my definition of love from my mom’s isn’t the only thing that’s been painful to navigate. It’s also the [00:42:00] realization that so much of my upbringing fundamentally shapes the way I live today. Speaker 3: At its best, parentification can lead to having a lot of pride developing really good work ethic, being really mindful of your role in your family and leaning into that. But at its worst, it can be a form of emotional neglect. And I think that’s really important because in my work with children of immigrants, a lot of times a lot of us don’t realize that we have different needs when we’re growing up. And sure, maybe you had a roof over your head, maybe you were, you know, sent to school, maybe you always had food on the table. And these are really. Big significant needs that were met, but were you also cared for emotionally? Were you allowed to express your emotions? Were you modeled and nurtured emotionally? So just being taught that even emotions weren’t something that was safe to have. And so in that way, that’s when parentification can become a sign of emotional neglect. So as by definition, parentification is taking on adult-like roles or roles that are. Older than you are developmentally at a young [00:43:00] age. And it can lead to people pleasing, it can lead to perfectionism, it can lead to constantly, um, monitoring our parents or other people’s emotions or feelings. Right? Those are very common long-term consequences of being parentified children because we’ve never really learned how to take up space. People pleasing, Sahaj Kaur Kohli: perfectionism, hyper vigilance. Yeah. I’ve been dealing with all of them pretty much my entire life. One of my core memories from when I used to live in Korea was being invited to a friend’s house After school, we were supposed to do homework together, and her mom sat with us going over everything and helping us out. I remember feeling so reassured, like finally someone was helping me in the way that Mamie feel safe and cared for. And because I wanted to be invited back, I was always on my absolute best behavior. I didn’t want her to feel like I was being a burden or a nuisance, so I made sure to take my shoes [00:44:00] off in the neatest way possible. I made sure to wipe off any crumbs off the table, and I even offered to do the dishes. Y’all, I was barely 10, but I felt like I needed to be, liked to be helped. The truth is. I am resentful. I resent that I never got to just be a kid. I’m angry that I couldn’t tell my parents that I was sad or hurt or scared. I’m angry that I thought care and attention were earned. By making myself small, likable, and pleasant. I’m angry that I couldn’t allow myself to rest or stumble because I knew there was no safety net to catch me and that I thought it was easier to not want than to be disappointed. But for the first time in my life, there is something I want [00:45:00] just for myself. I want to heal desperately. I want to shed this weight so I can finally be my most authentic, free, and expansive self without needing to prove anything to anyone. I want to access the safety, abundance, joy, and ease that I didn’t have as a. Child. Talking to my parents about my childhood wounds feels really hard. Not only because I’m worried about how it’ll make them feel, but because deep down I truly believe that they loved me the best way they knew how so? How do I even begin to tell them that their best wasn’t enough to protect me from harm? How do I share that? I feel resentful for the child that I never got to have without breaking their hearts in the process. And the hardest part, even now, I catch [00:46:00] myself prioritizing their feelings over my truth. It is like this unshakeable sense of responsibility where their comfort feels more important than my pain. How do I even untangle that? Speaker 3: You deserve joy and peace and ease. I mean, ultimately so many of us aren’t able to give ourselves permission to be able to work towards joy and peace and ease. ’cause we don’t believe we’re deserving of it. And that is a product of, you know, these family dynamics, but also guilt and shame and not knowing the difference between those two. And then feeling like we automatically are. Bad if we aren’t constantly pleasing other people. So many of us also struggle with that, uh, binary mindset. You know, if I feel this way, it’s wrong. If my parents are disappointed, I’m a bad child. And that’s not true. We have to learn. And [00:47:00] you have to decide at what point you’re willing to accept that it might not change. And then decide what you’re willing to tolerate. And that’s the acceptance in grief work that is so hard and grief, I call it grief for a reason. ’cause grief never goes away. There’s no resolution in grief. It’s learning to build a life around it. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Yeah, that’s so real and so hard, that whole acceptance piece, right? Knowing that it’s going to take time, but also that there may need to be a time where you start to accept, uh, your parents for who they are and what they have capacity for and what they don’t. What’s been really difficult for me is the acceptance of the reality. And my desire to heal, part of me feels like I can’t heal until I get the acknowledgement, until I get the validation, until I feel seen in my entirety by my mom and by my dad. And sometimes I feel like that just sets me up for more disappointment and sense of betrayal and resentment because I [00:48:00] am not getting the very sort of human and childlike need from my parents. But knowing that that may never come, and I can’t depend on that for my healing, but that’s been really hard to accept. Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, that makes me really sad because I’m hearing you like deny yourself something that you deserve because you’re still waiting for your parents to give you permission for it. When you can give yourself permission for it yourself, but for some reason you don’t feel like you have enough agency or you’re not allowed to be the one who decides I can heal. Even without my parents’ acceptance. And that’s a lot of the inner child like re-parenting work of like, you know, thinking about little Michelle and what she needs and how do you give it to her. How do you find power and strength in being able to be the adult who can say, fine, if you’re not gonna take care of this little girl I am. I’m gonna take care of her. And it’s really hard, right? And it’s really painful, but. [00:49:00] It hurts me to hear you say that you won’t be able to do this until you get that permission, because the reality is you may never get that acceptance and acknowledgement you’re looking for from them. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: In high school, when I came out as bisexual to my dad, he just ignored it. He pretended he didn’t hear me change the subject, and that was that we never talked about it again. And honestly, I was fine with that at the time. He didn’t wanna hear more and I didn’t want to share more. We lived under the same roof, but how much did we really know about each other? Anyway, fast forward many years later, I was on my way to a date with a woman I just met. I was on the phone with my dad and thought maybe this is a chance to let him in on my life, just a little. So I told him where I was going and casually asked, what would you do if I ever brought a girl home? I don’t know what I [00:50:00] was expecting to hear, but I definitely wasn’t prepared for his answer. Don’t come home. He said Speaker 3: It’s very challenging and I think I just recently had these conversations with a couple clients of mine where, you know, sometimes we have to ask ourselves. The greatest gift we can give people we love is letting them see us for all parts of ourselves, right? Every part of who we are. That’s the greatest gift we can give someone we love. And not everyone deserves that gift, especially if they’re not tending to it, nurturing it. And I see you like, as like a younger version of you, like vulnerable and raw and saying, love me, love me, love me. Mm-hmm. It’s not just you, it’s it’s all of us. Right? We, we have these experiences. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: It wasn’t until one Thanksgiving back at my dad’s house that I realized just how much I did crave my dad’s acceptance and love. Thanksgiving is one day [00:51:00] that we all gather at my dad’s house. We ordered a Thanksgiving family meal from Boston Market that no one really likes chit chat and eat for no more than 40 minutes and migrate over to the living room to watch a movie of someone’s choosing, usually me or my dad. This has been our way of bonding for as long as we started gathering. The movie that my dad, the same man who stonewalled me when I came out to him in high school, chose for us to watch, was Boy Erased a movie about a gay man’s search for acceptance from himself and his family without making eye contact. He said, have you seen this? I thought you might like it. It’s about a gay person. As someone who’s never been interested in anything L-G-B-T-Q related, this was his clumsy way of inching closer to me. My dad didn’t throw me a coming out party. He didn’t wear a rainbow pin or proclaim how proud he was to be an ally. [00:52:00] There was no tearful heart to heart about acceptance, apologies, forgiveness, or unconditional love. And you know what? At that moment I realized. I didn’t need any of that. Sitting side by side on that Costco couch of his, I understood exactly what his silence was trying to say. Speaker 3: And that’s what happens in high context cultures, right? It’s not about being direct, it’s not about being explicit. It’s more about what the contextual clues are. I think behaviors is where it all comes down to. So that might have been your dad’s way of saying, I accept you and the way that I know how, and me watching this with you is my way of showing that in the same way that my dad. Never growing up or through my thirties, only recently started to say, I love you. But growing up I would go home and he would leave me newspaper clippings about mental health or about something I had told him about and those would be on my bed every time I would visit home. And that’s, I knew, was his way of saying, I love you. [00:53:00] Right. We have the cut fruit anecdote that everyone has in an Asian household. Our mom’s way of loving us is through food and by caring for us and caretaking for us. ’cause that’s the role they knew how to play. I even had an interesting conversation with my mom where I’ve asked her, I think this was a while ago, where I asked her, what else do you wanna do? Like stop trying to do my laundry when I come home. Get out of the kitchen. We’ll just order food. But then I realized it made her sad and I realized I was actually taking away her agency to love me in the way she knew how. Because that’s not how I need to be loved. I’ve also asked my parents, did your parents ever say, I love you? When was the first time or the last time you, you heard them say that to you? What was that like for you? Oh, that must have been really sad that your parents didn’t even say, I love you. You know, that impacts kids. And then using that as a frame of like. Are you thinking about how you don’t do it with me? Like sometimes it takes these little kind of games before we can get to a place where we feel like we can get that conversation going. But even then, where can we find beauty in the relationship with our [00:54:00] parents? I’m sure if we, you know, really wanted to dive deep into it, we would. You would be able to think of like strengths in your relationship with your parents, ways that they do love you or see you even if it’s not what you want. The way that they love you is still a way that they are showing you that they love you. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: When I think about my younger self, I sometimes find myself imagining my mom and dad when they were young, what were they like growing up? How many crushes did my mom have as a teenager? When did she start sneaking cigarettes? And what made her start? Who was there for my dad when he lost his dad as a child who told them they were loved? When was the last time someone asked them about their hopes and dreams? What did they long for? Growing up in Korea with my mom, she often told me her parenting philosophy. [00:55:00] I want us to be like friends. She’d say, she’d tell me stories about how she was always afraid of her mom, how strict my grandma was. How she never got the chance to fully explore her passions and curiosities. One day when I was in elementary school, she just said, you’re not going to school today. And instead of taking me to school, she drove me and my sister to a farm outside the city. She told us real life experiences are more important than what you learn in textbooks. She didn’t want us to live inside the same box. She’d grown up in. She wanted something different for us. She’d say things like, date as many men as you can before you marry. Travel as much as you can while you’re young. Learn to drive as soon as you can. More than anything, she wanted us to be free freer than she ever got to [00:56:00] be. The way my parents love me and the way I love them. It’s not something you’d find in some textbook. It’s messy. It’s complicated. It’s nuanced, and it’s big. It’s so big. It is not the kind of love you see in those Hallmark movies where a white parents hug you and say, I love you at least 15 times a day. But I feel it. I feel it in the everyday moments, like when my mom insists on doing my laundry with her permanently sore back, or when she likes every single thing I post on Instagram. I feel it every time she sees me and says, you’re so pretty with genuine awe in her eyes.[00:57:00] Michelle MiJung Kim: If you liked what you heard today, please tell your family. Tell your friends. Tell your people. Subscribe to our show and leave us a review. Sahaj Kaur Kohli: Wanna hear more from me in Sege? Watch the full interview on the I feel that way. Two YouTube channel. And while you’re at it, subscribe to our newsletter on our website at www dot I feel that way. Two.com. Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program, apex Express to find out more about our show. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Have a great [00:58:00] night. The post APEX Express – 9.18.25 – I Feel That Way Too appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – September 11, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

Asians and Asian Americans are numerous within the classical music industry, but their identities are often politicized and racialized in this Eurocentric musical genre. For the third episode of Obbligato on APEX Express, Isabel Li discusses this intersection with Mari Yoshihara, Professor of American Studies at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and Professor at the Center for Global Education at the University of Tokyo, Japan; author of many books, including Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music (2007) and Dearest Lenny: Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro (2019). Tonight’s episode features music by Chinese American composer Zhou Tian. To learn more about Mari and her work, please visit her website: https://www.mariyoshihara.com/index.html  Musicians from a Different Shore: https://tupress.temple.edu/books/musicians-from-a-different-shore-2 Dearest Lenny: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/dearest-lenny-9780190465780?cc=jp&lang=en&  Transcript  Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.    00:00:53 Isabel Li  Good evening. You’re listening to KPFA 94.1 FM. My name is Isabel Li and I’m delighted to be hosting a new edition of Obbligato on Apex Express, which is a semimonthly segment specifically about AAPI identities in classical music. Tonight’s guest is someone I have been incredibly excited to speak to because her writings have actually very much informed my studies and research. In fact, her books are exactly about the subject matter of Obbligato. I am honored to be speaking to Mario Yoshihara, Professor of American Studies at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa and Professor at the Center for Global Education at the University of Tokyo, Japan; author of many books, including Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music, published in 2007, and Dearest Lenny: Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro, which was published in 2019. Welcome to Obbligato on Apex Express. Mari, how are you doing?  00:01:55 Mari Yoshihara  I’m doing fine. Thank you for having me.  00:01:58 Isabel Li  Of course, my first question for you is how do you identify and what communities are you a part of?  00:02:06 Mari Yoshihara  Oh well, that’s actually a little bit complicated I am. I am a Japanese woman who have spent a little bit over well, maybe not more than a little more than half of my life in the United States. Born in New York but raised in Tokyo, educated mostly in Japan, but also earned my graduate degrees in the United States and most of my academic career has been in Hawaii, so I’ve been in American academia for almost 30 years now, but I also have a dual appointment with the University of Tokyo in Japan. So I split my time between Japan and Hawaii now.  00:02:54 Isabel Li  Can you tell us a little bit about your work and your books? I had a chance to read Musicians from a Different Shore, but how would you summarize your research to someone who might not have read your book?  00:03:04 Mari Yoshihara  So I am a scholar of American studies, which is an interdisciplinary field that has anything to do with America broadly defined. And within that, my area of expertise is about, well, I would say I’m a scholar of US cultural history. US Asian relations, mostly US, East Asian relations, especially in the cultural dimension, cultural studies, gender studies, Asian American studies, etc. And so I have written a number of books, both in English and Japanese, but the one that you’re referring to, Musicians from a Different Shore, is a book that I did research for more than 20 years ago and was published in 2007. It’s a study of Asians and Asian Americans and classical music. So it was partly historical in that I examined the ways. which Western music, so-called western classical music, was introduced to East Asia and how also East Asians became have become so successful and prominent in this field that is generally considered a white European elite art form, so it was partly historical, but then the rest of the book was based on my ethnographic field work and interviews among Asians and Asian Americans in classical music looking at how well who these people are in the first place and then also how musicians, Asian and Asian musicians themselves, understand the relationship between their racial and cultural identity on the one hand, and their practice of Western classical music on the other, so that was my study.   And then I also wrote another book called Dearest Lenny. It’s about—the subtitle is Letters from Japan and the Making of the World Maestro. It’s about Leonard Bernstein’s relationship with two very special individuals in Japan. And through that story, I interweave an account of various things. For one thing, how Leonard Bernstein became a world maestro and also the relationship between politics and arts, gender, sexuality, art and commerce, etcetera, etcetera. So that was my most recent book published in English and then, I’m sure we’ll talk more about this, but I’m currently doing a follow up research on the on Musicians from a Different Shore, taking into account all the changes that have been taking place in the classical music industry in the United States in the past, I would say five years or so especially so that’s my that’s the abbreviated version of my research.  00:05:55 Isabel Li  That’s really cool, and I also want to ask you about these changes, if you can talk a little bit about the classical music world. I feel like classical music is one of those genres that seems to be unchanging on the outside. But as a scholar of classical music, what types of changes have you observed that has influenced how AAPI identities play into this world?  00:06:18 Mari Yoshihara  Yeah, I think especially in the last, I would say, yeah, 5 to 10 years, especially in the last five years, classical music industry in the United, I mean I say specifically in the United States because I don’t see the similar kind of changes taking place in Japan where I’m currently located. And I also don’t really know the situation in Europe. But the field of classical music in the US is changing. I think most significantly because of movements like the Black Lives Matter movement and also with the onset of COVID and the rise of anti Asian hate, there’s been a lot more heightened awareness about how issues of race and also class shapes classical music. So there’s a lot more vibrant conversations and debates about these topics in the industry and also in terms of AAPI community, are the biggest changes, the biggest change I’m seeing is that Asian and Asian American musicians themselves are being a lot more vocal and active in issues of race and racism in the field and there I’ve encountered many Asian and Asian American musicians who have, for instance, you know organized events or organizations, or taken up various forms of advocacy and activism on these issues. So compared to, say, 20 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, when I was doing the original research, I see a lot more kind of, you know, explicit awareness and awareness and articulation of these issues by Asian and Asian American musicians themselves.  00:08:12 Isabel Li  That’s really interesting. Just because classical music is also one of those genres, that doesn’t seem like a genre that most people explicitly associate with politics or activism. What are some examples of these, like activist movements that you’ve observed within the Asian American community in classical music?  00:08:32 Mari Yoshihara  So for instance, some Asian and Asian American musicians are are becoming a lot more vocal about the actual like racism or sexism that they have themselves experienced, or that they witness in the industry, like in in schools, conservatories, orchestras, opera companies, etc. Either through the media or you know their own writing, and also like speaking up within the organizations that they work in. So that’s one. There are other kinds of advocacy and activism in that they demand more diverse repertoire, and I think the repertoire is in terms of the industry industry changes. That’s the area that’s changing the most, the the kind of repertoire that many orchestras for instance perform have become a lot more– I mean overall it’s still very white, European centered– but in terms of the actual numbers of pieces that are performed, works by living, composers and composers of color, women composers, etcetera. That is significantly increased in the last 10 years and that is, you know significantly to do with the advocacy and activism on the part of, you know, artists of color.  So yeah, so things like that and then, you know, many Asian, Asian American artists are doing their own programming, for instance, like event organizing programming. So yeah, those are the areas that I see changes. I see things happening that I didn’t see 25 years ago.  00:10:20 Isabel Li  Definitely. I remember reading your book, and your book has been published since 2007, so a lot of changes have happened since then. But in general, when you did your research at first, what how would you summarize the dynamic of Asian identities, Asian American identities in this very Eurocentric field, it’s a juxtaposition of two different cultures and identities that a lot of people also observe in orchestras. There’s a large population of Asian and Asian American musicians, conductors just in general. It’s a very large population, but yet this identity is still not quite represented in media. It’s not quite seen, so talk to us a bit about this juxtaposition and how you observe these dynamics in your research.  00:11:10 Mari Yoshihara  Yeah. So. The thing is, Asians and Asian Americans are indeed numerically overrepresented in classical music, in the sense that compared to the general public, the the the proportion of Asians and Asian Americans in the overall US population, the number of Asian and Asian Americans in classical music indexed by things like the student body at major conservatories or membership roster of US orchestras, etcetera, Asians and Asian Americans percentage is higher than the general population, right. So in terms of the numbers, Asians and Asian Americans are, quote unquote overrepresented. But those numbers are not reflected in the actual like voice, power and influence that they have in the industry.   So that was my finding back 2025 years ago and I think that’s still true today. Also, the thing about Asian, Asian American musicians is that it’s a racialized category. They are seeing and treated as Asian. It’s this racial category. But their identities and experiences as Asians is not at all uniform, right?   Some of these Asian musicians are Asian Americans, like multi generational Asian Americans whose parents or grandparents or great grandparents etcetera have come to the United States and they themselves are U.S. citizens. So that’s one group.   Many Asian musicians working in the United States are people who were born and raised in Asia, places like China or South Korea, Japan, etcetera, and came to the United States as international students to study music, often at the college level, college conservatory level, so obviously these people have very different sense of identity and experience as Asians compared to say, you know 3rd, 4th generation Chinese Americans or 1.5 Korean Americans.   There are other people who live in the United States because they were very talented, very young musicians, and the whole whole family immigrated to the United States specifically for their music education. So Midori, the famous violinist, Midori is a case, example of this, but there are also a number of other, especially among Koreans and Chinese. There are families, the whole family immigrated to the United States when the child was a very promising musician at age 7 or something. So that’s one group. They too have a different sense of identity and experience of Asians than the two former groups that I that I talked about.   There are other people who also came to the United States because not because of the music education, but because of their parents’ profession, for instance. And they have transnational kind of family ties and you know, they move, they go back and forth between US and Asia, for instance. And then there are also mixed roots families where one parent is Asian and the other is non Asian.   And then there are also Asians who were born and raised in Europe for other parts of the globe and then came to the United States, for either personal or professional reasons.   So in other words, they’re all Asians in terms of their racial identity. But what that means is really quite diverse and their experience as Asian and Asian American musicians is also quite diverse. So it’s not as if you know, just because they’re Asian, they share some kind of experience and identities around which they coalesce. So that’s, you know, that was true 20, 25 years ago. And I think that’s still true today.  More and more Asian musicians are coming to the United States to study, study or work in classical music, but especially because of this, like new influence, this Asian category is becoming even more diverse. However, because of the COVID, you know the rise of Anti Asian hate during the COVID pandemic, I think that heightened the awareness of, you know, these different kinds of Asians, the heightened awareness that they are Asians. First and foremost, you know, in, in that in the sense of being racialized in the United States. So I have talked with a number of musicians, Asians and Asian American musicians, who did not really, hadn’t thought about their Asianness before. It wasn’t at the forefront of their identity before, but during this rise of anti Asian hate it they became they basically became more politicized. You know, they had quite a politicized language and awareness to think about race and racism especially against Asians and Asian Americans.  00:16:31 Isabel Li  Yeah, that’s a great point. It is a such a diverse group and there are so many different identities, even within just the Asian American framework AAPI, as a label is very, very diverse. And that applies to classical music as well. But I think there’s also this social perception of Asian and Asian Americans as a group that also relates to the model minority stereotype that’s historically been present and, for example, a lot of people might think of, like a young Asian or Asian American musician as being like a prodigy because they are technically skilled at their instrument, where like these social perceptions that exist both in media and in the culture around us, why do you think that is?  00:17:15 Mari Yoshihara  Well, that as you said, there is a model minority myth and there is a stereotype of Asians and Asian Americans as being very studious and diligent, but also quiet, right? I mean, they just quietly follow, like, obedient, obediently follow the instructions and that translates in the field of music as the stereotype that Asian musicians are technically very proficient but artistically non expressive. I mean, that’s a very common stereotype that yeah, you know, practically any Asian, Asian Americans in classical music have been subjected to, you know, quite regularly and frequently. And I think that, yeah, that just comes with the overall kind of racial stereotype of Asians and Asians and Asian Americans in American society at large. And also the fact that, you know, classical music, especially in terms of instrumental performance, it is an area that is, it’s something that is, indeed, technically very demanding, right? You need many, many years of disciplined training and a lot of practice. And there is a myth of merit– well, no, not entirely a myth– but there is this this very, you know, dearly held faith in meritocracy in classical music. The idea that if you have the chops you will be rewarded, you will be recognized and you know, no matter what kind of great artistic idea you might have, if you can’t play the notes, you can’t play the notes. That kind of ethos of meritocracy is particularly strong in classical music because of the technical demands of the genre, and that and that kind of, you know, goes hand in hand with the model minority methods for Asian Americans.  00:19:20 Isabel Li  Definitely. That’s really interesting and another part of your book that was quite fascinating to me when I first read it was chapter 3. You talked about the intersection of gender as well as, you know, racial identity in classical music. The chapter is called Playing Gender and you talk about, I think at large don’t necessarily associate classical music with a discipline that provides a stable job. It is an art form and there is kind of an uphill battle for artists in a sense like a starving artist myth there. We’re not even a myth. Like if there’s a starving artist image, whereas the image of a very successful classical musician there’s this duality that you also mentioned in one of your other chapters about class. So what really interested me in for this chapter was that there was this intersection of power in classical music of who would go down the path that might not be traditionally as successful. How do you think gender dynamics play into this and how do you think they might have shifted within the last two decades or so?  00:20:20 Mari Yoshihara  Huh. I’m not sure if it has shifted all that much in the last two decades, but as you said, because music I mean, not just classical music, but music. Like, you know, arts in general is a field that is very like economically insecure in terms of career, right?   But at the same time. Classical music is associated with kind of, you know, bourgeois identity and just kind of overall cultivation and so, many Asian, Asian American parents are very eager to send their kids to, say, piano lessons, violin lessons, cello lessons, etcetera. To, you know, give them a well-rounded education and also because it is considered useful tool, you know, when you’re going to college and stuff like, you know being, you know, being able to show that you’re very talented violinist, for instance, is believed to help your college application.  So there’s this, you know, both stereotype and reality that like, you know, places like Julliard Pre-College, very competitive, you know, school, like music education program for kids is filled with Asian, Asian American, you know, students and their parents who are waiting, waiting for them to come out of school.   So there’s that. But how gender plays into this is that while both men and women are do study music at a young age. When it comes to, you know, choosing say, college, like what they would, what they would pursue at the college level, far fewer male students tend to choose music as their college major or go to conservatory and pursue it as a as a career. But I think it’s both their own choice. And also especially for Asian and Asian Americans, like parental pressure to not pursue music professionally because of, you know, financial insecurity.   So there’s that, and also how that plays into the actual experiences of Asian, Asian Americans musicians who do study music is that I have heard from a number of female Asian musicians that either their peers or especially their teachers are doubtful that they are actually serious about music. There is a stereotype that, you know, say for instance, Japanese or Korean female students at Juilliard School, Manhattan School or whatever, they are there because they, you know, they want to study music and then find a good husband and marry, you know, a lawyer or doctor or engineer or something. [laughs] And and not that that doesn’t happen. But that’s a stereotype of, you know, that’s a racialized and gender stereotype that comes from these, you know, gender and class and racialized dynamics.  00:23:35 Isabel Li  And just for clarification, is the classical music world at large still a male dominated field?  00:23:41 Mari Yoshihara  Yes. Oh yes. Definitely. I mean, it depends on the segment of you know, I mean classical music is itself quite diverse. So if you look at, for instance, the string section, especially the violin section of the New York Philharmonic for instance, you will find that like, I think the majority of those violin players are Asian women, perhaps. But if you look at say for instance, the Faculty of Conservatories or music directors and major orchestras and said, I mean still very male dominated.  00:24:23 Isabel Li  Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I like how your book also has so many different layers for each chapter. So Chapter 3 was about the gender intersection with this, with this identity, and Chapter 4, was it Chapter 4, I believe it was about class, Class Notes, and you’ve already mentioned a little bit about how class plays into the perception of music, how class influences gender even. But there’s a statement in there that you said that, “it’s misleading to characterize Asian musicians as just coming from the upper middle class.” And it makes sense that people would think of musicians coming from this economic bracket, because classical music is an in and of itself a very kind of expensive undertaking. You need so many lessons, so many instruments. But tell us why this statement would be misleading.  00:25:15 Mari Yoshihara  Because I mean, first of all, most of the overwhelmed, I would say overwhelming majority of the Asian, Asian American musicians that I interviewed come from middle class backgrounds, many of them from so-called like professional executive class backgrounds in, meaning that their parents hold these professional executive positions, right. And that’s why they were able to afford advanced musical studies from a fairly young age. They need, you know, sustained and disciplined and often costly, you know, lessons, you know, competitions, etcetera, auditions, travel, etcetera. So that’s for sure, yeah.   At the same time, there are also Asian musicians who come from less privileged backgrounds, you know, immigrant families who have, because quite a few. I mean overall Asian American population, many immigrants experience downward social mobility upon immigrating to the United States because of, you know, oftentimes linguistic barriers or you know, or plain old racism. And so you’re not Asian families that immigrate to the United States, like, for instance, if the parents have professional positions back in South Korea, oftentimes they become, you know, for instance, you know, small business owners and they experience downward social mobility. I mean, that’s a very common scenario. Yeah, so now all Asian, Asian American musicians grow up in a privileged environment.  00:27:06 Isabel Li  Definitely a great point. Now before we move on to some discussions about Mari’s research. First of all, thank you for tuning in to Obbligato on APEX Express, we’ll be taking a short music break and as mentioned earlier, a great way to increase diversity within classical music is to uplift works by living composers. If you’re listening to my first.  00:27:26 Isabel Li  Episode 2 months ago, you’ll know that I featured music by Chinese American composer Zhou Tian. I’m happy to say that coming up next is one of Zhou’s compositions inspired by a trip to Italy. This is a piece called Hidden Grace performed by the Formosa Trio.  27:45 – COMP MUSIC – Hidden Grace  00:35:34 Isabel Li  That was a piece called Hidden Grace, composed by Zhou Tian for a fascinating instrumentation of flute, Viola and heart coming up for our second piece. In this interview, break another movement by Zhou Tian, the third movement of his double concerto for violin and Viola, called Rendezvous.  35:58 – COMP MUSIC – Double Concerto for Violin and Viola, III. Rendezvous  00:41:09 Isabel Li  Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on viola, and the Hangzhou Philharmonic, playing the third and final movement of Zhou Tian’s Double Concerto for violin and viola. So back to the conversation with Professor Mari Yoshihara.  00:41:25 Isabel Li  As you also mentioned before, you’re working on an updated version of Musicians from a Different Shore. Can you talk–I don’t know how much you can talk about your, like upcoming projects, but are you using similar research methods to what you’ve done before using ethnographic field work? You’ve mentioned the new changing dynamics of classical music in the United States with new waves of activism and awareness. What are some new topics of your chapters that you might focus on? So for your 2007 publication, you talked about your gender and class and how these intersect with identity. Are there any new things that you’re drawing upon here?  00:42:02 Mari Yoshihara  Yeah. So I’m using basically the same research method. I’m interviewing actually some of the same people that appeared in Musicians from a Different Shore. Some people kept in touch with over the years, I’ve gone back to them and interviewed them to see the trajectories of their careers since the first time I interviewed them. But then I’ve also interviewed a bunch of other, you know, new musicians that I’m speaking with for the first time. So it’s essentially an interview and ethnographic fieldwork-based research.  I told you earlier about I think one of the biggest changes is, as I said before, the activism and advocacy on the part of Asian, Asian American musicians themselves. So I have one chapter about that. Like, what? How? What kinds of advocacy and activism they’re engaged in.   Another big change that I’m seeing is that compared to 20 years ago, there are a lot more Asian musicians in the field of opera.  00:43:01 Isabel Li  Ohh yeah.  00:43:02 Mari Yoshihara  Uh. Both as singers. Yeah, many of them singers, but also in other, you know, like for instance opera, you know, pianist for opera or be opera directors, et cetera. There are many more Asians in this particular field than what I saw 20 years ago. And I talked about this a little bit in my first book, but opera is a very particular kind of field within classical music.   How race plays into opera is very different from other areas of classical music because it’s a theatrical art form. It’s visually oriented, you know art form. And because singers have to be cast in order to, you know, sing on stage. So the racial politics in opera, you know, unfolds very differently from, say, for pianists or cellists or conductors or or composers.   So I now have a whole chapter about opera, especially Madame Butterfly, that this very fraught work, you know, opera that many Asian and Asian Americans have love hate relationships. A lot of pigeon-holing that happens in that through that opera. But also, production of new opera by Asian and Asian American artists, composers, directors, singers, etcetera. So I have a whole chapter about that.   And then I also will have another chapter about, you know, what it means to, you know, sit at the table, basically. Like stand on the podium and sit at the table, stand on the podium. Not only, I mean I will, I will have a whole discussion about Asian and Asian Americans conductors, but not only in that literal sense of, you know, standing at the podium, but like being at the table like in other words, not only, Asian and Asian American musicians playing music that are given to them and they are assigned to them that they’re hired to play, but also having a real voice in the organizational and institutional dimensions of classical music industry. So the kinds of people, Asians, who are in these positions more executive positions with decision making power what their experiences are like. I’m going to have a chapter about that.   So those are some of my ideas. I’m still in the middle of the project, so I can’t. I can’t see the whole picture, but those are some of my current ideas.  00:45:48 Isabel Li  I see. And do you have an idea of when this book will be published or an updated version?  00:45:54 Mari Yoshihara  Well [laughs], my goal rather ambitious goal is to have it published in 2027, because that would be 20 years since Musicians from a Different Shore, so that would be ideal if I can make that.  00:46:08 Isabel Li  Well, yeah. Nice. That’s really exciting, definitely. I will also kind of bridge, I guess my part of the research into this part of the interview, since I’d love to talk to you a little bit more about how classical music in general is portrayed in media.   So as I’ve introduced myself before, I had a back, I have a background in media studies as well as music history and theory. And what was really interesting to me in my senior thesis while I was doing research for that was I coined this term and it could just be loosely associated with the genre of film. But it’s the “classical music film.” So think of any narrative fictional film you can think of with a classical musician in there. So it could be like Amadeus, where I think of like Tár. If you watch Tár like a lot of these depictions are quite understandably white and European, but they my senior thesis I’ve never really seen any depictions of Asian American or Asian classical musicians? I was wondering if you have ever watched a film like that, or could maybe talk a bit about maybe the lack of representation in media, how media plays into how people perceive classical music as a genre as a whole.  00:47:23 Mari Yoshihara  That is a very interesting question. I think you know, because of the stereotype of Asian and Asian American model minority and model minority stereotype often is associated with, you know, violin or piano-playing Asian American kids, I think. Asian, Asian American characters who are, you know, these kind of musical classical music geniuses appear here and there. But the ones that center on such a character as the main, you know, like the protagonist, come to think of it, I’m not sure if I’ve seen. I mean, I’ve seen several Korean dramas, you know, character, but those are Korean dramas, not Asian American, so more American works with Asian classical musicians…  00:48:21 Isabel Li  And I think also classical music as a genre is. It’s interesting because classical music is also kind of underrepresented. It’s not quite in the mainstream. And then one of my final questions for you is I do also want to take a second to acknowledge that your book was actually one of the only books that I could find about this topic. I think there are not that many other books about Asian and Asian Americans in classical music. I think there are a few other books and a few and definitely some papers that talk about this, but what got you interested in this field? And I don’t know if you think there’s a scarcity of information, but do you think there’s relative scarcity of information about this topic?  00:49:01 Mari Yoshihara  Yeah. So how I got into it is. So I was a pretty serious student of piano when I was a child. That’s like, yeah, that really kind of preoccupied my childhood and adolescence. But then I, for various reasons I ended up not going to a music Conservatory and became an academic.   And then once I entered academia and became a scholar of American studies, all I was studying was like race, gender, class. I mean, that’s what  we do in American studies. And my first book, which was originally my doctoral dissertation, was a cultural history of orientalism and white women. So that was a study of the intersections of race and gender and to some extent class in American history.   So once I finished that book, I was thinking about what projects to work on next. And I happened to turn on the TV, and it just so happens that the Vienna Phil New Year’s concert, conducted by Seiji Ozawa was playing on the TV and that was sort of my “aha” moment because I had always known or, you know, kind of generally aware that Asians and Asian Americans are, if not necessarily overrepresented, but, you know, they’re quite numerous, you know. They’re present. Their numerical presence is quite notable in classical music that is often associated with white, you know, European culture, elite culture.  So I was kind of curious about that phenomenon, but I hadn’t really thought too much about it until I watched Seiji Ozawa were conducting the Vienna Phil. And that’s when I thought, well, maybe I can kind of combine my classical music background and my academic training in studies of race, gender, class into this project. So that’s when I decided to work on. You know, this topic of Asians and Asian Americans, classical music.  I think the reason that there hadn’t been at least a book-length study on the topic until my book is that for one thing, classical music is considered to be kind of a very abstract absolute form of music. This ethos that it is kind of transcends– that it is a universal, transcendental kind of genre, that is sort of above things like politics or race or gender. Like it shouldn’t matter that these, you know, individual identity, racialized gender identity shouldn’t matter vis-à-vis the universalism of classical music. I mean that kind of ethos is very strong in this particular genre of music. I think that has a lot to do with it.   And also the study of classical music until rather recently, like musicological study of classical music, really tended to be focused on the study of composers and their works, right? It was the textual that, like it, was an analysis of Beethoven Symphony or, you know, Bach Fugues, etcetera. Yeah. It was really focused on the study of the score, the study of the composer’s ideas, as reflected in the score, I mean that was the centerpiece of musicological approach to classical music.  And so sort of more sociological anthropological study of the musical practice is a relatively new approach in in the field of musicology. I’m not a musicologist. So that’s not how I’m trained. But I think the academic approach to classical music was not very, kind of, open to the kinds of topics that I raised in Musicians from a Different Shore.  00:53:12 Isabel Li  Definitely. I see. And my very final fun question for you is can you name three of your favorite classical music pieces for any recommendations you have for the audience who might be listening, who might be wondering what they will listen to next?  00:53:27 Mari Yoshihara  Well, OK well. Pieces well, because I wrote a book about Leonard Bernstein. I mean, I ended up– I wrote a book about Leonard Bernstein. Not necessarily because I was an avid fan of Bernstein. It just kind of happened this this project. But nonetheless of while I was doing research and writing the book I did listen to a lot of Bernstein. I and I have come to really love Bernstein music and so. And you know, of course, everybody knows West Side Story, but he actually wrote many other pieces that may not be as well known.   Well among the pieces that I like, I like…which one should I choose? I will choose. Ohh well, I’ll choose a piece that I learned myself as a pianist.  I learned the piece called “Touches” that he wrote. It was a commission piece for the Van Cliburn International Piano Competition, and it’s kind of yeah, it’s a chorale and variation. So that’s very interesting and very interesting and very Bernstein-esque so well.   I’ll OK, as an American study scholar. I’ll, I’ll stick with American pieces. I like someone Barber a lot. I like Barber “Excursions,” which I also learned to play.  00:55:04 Isabel Li  Yeah.  00:55:09 Isabel Li  Tough question.  00:55:11 Mari Yoshihara  Umm, Mason Bates piece that I also learned, “White Lies For Lomax.” This one was also, I believe…was it commissioned by the Cliburn? But no, maybe it wasn’t. Yeah, I think it was commissioned. But anyway, I played it at the Van Cliburn International– the amateur competition of the Cliburn competition.  I did all these. So like Bernstein, Bates, Amy Beach piece I also played. Yeah, I’ll stop there. I I wish you had prepped me for that then [laughs]–  00:55:42 Isabel Li  Oh my gosh. Great responses.  00:55:46 Mari Yoshihara  Hard to think on the spot.  00:55:47 Isabel Li  Yeah, I totally get that. Whenever people ask me for my favorite composer, I never have an answer. No, so I totally get it.   Well, thank you so much for your time, Mari. And thank you for your wonderful insights. I’ll put the link to your books so that people can learn about your works on APEX Express on kpfa.org. So thank you so much for your time, Mari.  00:56:07 Mari Yoshihara  Thank you.  00:56:09 Isabel Li  As mentioned, please check our website kpfa.org to find out more about Mari Yoshihara, her scholarship, and links to two of her books. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.  00:56:31 Isabel Li  APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, and Cheryl Truong. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA  for their support. Have a great night.  [OUTRO MUSIC]  The post APEX Express – 9.4.25 – Obbligato with Mari Yoshihara appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Important Links: Hmong Innovating Politics: Website | Instagram Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram Bhutanese American Refugee Rights website Transcript Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on KPFA. My name is Swati Rayasam.  Since the onset of the Trump administration, immigrant and refugee communities have been under increased attack, being kidnapped in broad daylight, detained in unsanitary and unsafe conditions, and deported to countries many of them barely know. All without due process or communication to their loved ones and communities. On tonight’s episode, we’re focusing on a particular segment of our immigrant and refugee community, Hmong and Bhutanese refugees. Both of these targeted communities are stateless with no land to call their own, and their deportation carries the very real danger of disappearance and death. Robin Gurung from Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong innovating Politics, discuss their community and personal refugee stories, and talk about the intersection of the US’ deeply broken immigration and criminal legal systems, otherwise known as crimmigration. We also get to hear from the wives of two detained refugees, one Bhutanese and one Hmong, who are currently fighting to keep their families together and to protect their loved ones from the dangers of deportation as stateless people. I also want to note because this is a rapidly developing situation, that this episode was recorded on August 13th, 2025, and is being released on August 28th, 2025. For the most recent updates, please go to bhutaneserefugeerights.org or check out the Pardon Refugees campaign. Now, here’s Miko. Miko: Welcome to Apex Express. Thank you so much for being here today. I’m so glad to bring you all together in this time. I’m wondering if I could ask you each to introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about the community your organization serves and what you do, and let’s start with Kao Ye.  Kao Ye: Hello everyone, and thank you for making space- my name is Kao Ye Tao. I use she her pronouns, and I work as the director of policy and partnerships with an organization called Hmong Innovating Politics. We are an organization that serves Hmong youth and families in Sacramento and Fresno, which holds two of our largest Hmong American communities in California. And our work with Hmong youth and families is really about developing their leadership to organize towards social justice and to get the resources that their communities deserve. Miko: Thank you, Kao Ye and Robin, could you please introduce yourself? Robin: Sure. My name is Robin Gurung. I use he, him, his, I’m from the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community. I live in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. my role at Asian Refugees United is the co-founder and the co-executive director. We have our program in California and Pennsylvania. California programs are, are serving Asian diaspora and then, Pennsylvania programs are focused serving the Nepal speaking Bhutanese community. We work in the intersection of arts and healing, storytelling, civic engagement, leadership development. Thank you. Miko: Thanks Robin and I am your host Miko Lee, lead producer at Apex Express. And all of us are part of a network called AACRE Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, which is a network of progressive Asian American groups. So you all work with refugee populations. I’m wondering if you could tell a little bit more about the backstory of your community, and also if you feel comfortable about how you personally came to be a refugee in the United States. And, Robin, I’d love to start with you on that one. Robin: Sure. My community is Nepali speaking, Bhutanese refugee community. And we are ethnically Nepali, which means culture wise and language wise we speak Nepali and follow the Nepali culture tradition. Our ancestors like maybe in 18 hundreds, 19 hundreds migrated from Nepal to Bhutan and became the citizen of that country. And most people don’t know about Bhutan, it’s a very tiny country between China and India. And, if people know about Bhutan, then people know it through the cross national happiness concept, Bhutan is considered the happiest country in the world. So our ancestors were in mostly in the southern area of Bhutan for generations, they became the citizen. They had their own home, their own land. And then later, 1980s, early nineties, there was a policy by the government of Bhutan, which is the monarchy government system- king rules the country. They brought a policy called One Nation, One People Policy. Which means all different groups of people would have to follow the same culture, same religion, kind of follow the same dress code and because of that policy all people were forced to stay away from following our own culture or our own religion, which, most of our folks were Hindu. Our people protested against it and because of that, the government expelled over a hundred thousand of our community members. And, they expelled to India and then from like India wouldn’t allow us to stay and we had to resettle in Nepal in seven different refugee camps under different international agencies like U-N-H-C-R and other agencies. Miko: And then Robin, can you tell a little bit about your personal story and how you came here? Robin: Yeah. Yeah. So 1992 is when my family had to leave Bhutan. And at that time I was three years old. I remember growing up in a refugee camp in Nepal, from three years until I was 23 years. So 20 years of my life I was in a refugee camp in Nepal. And in 2012, I came to US through the refugee resettlement program introduced to our camps in 2008, and through it US agreed to resettle 60,000 of our committee members. By 2017, I think US has resettled about 70 to 80,000 of our Bhutanese community members.   Miko: Thank you so much for sharing. Kao Ye I wonder if you could talk about your community and the refugee resettlement program that your community was a part of. Kao Ye: The Hmong American community, or just the Hmong community overall, is a group that’s indigenous to East and Southeast Asia. And through our ancient history, we’ve always been a stateless, people fighting for our autonomy to live to practice our customs and our culture. And particularly where we come into this history of refugee is during the Vietnam War where many Hmong people, alongside other ethnic groups in Laos, were caught in the crossfire of the United States conflict in Southeast Asia. And so with the Vietnam War. The Hmong as well as many other ethnic communities that lived, in the hills and the mountains were recruited in covert operations by the CIA to fight back against the Vietnamese, the Northern Vietnamese communist forces, as well as the Putet Lao. And so once the US withdrew from Southeast Asia, it created a vacuum of conflict and violence that our people had to escape from in order to survive. And so after the Vietnam War in 1975, we saw the mass displacement of many Southeast Asian ethnic communities, including Hmong families. And that is where my history starts because my parents were born in Laos and because of this war, they fled to Thailand refugee camps and lived there for a few years until they were able to come to the United States in 1992. And I’m actually I’m a child of refugees and so what I know about this part of my history comes from the stories of my grandparents who raised me as well as what little I could learn in the textbooks of public education. And so it wasn’t actually until going to college and. Being able to access more of this literature, this history that I really learned about what the United States had done in Southeast Asia and the ramifications of that for myself and my family and so many others, refugees that. Have to have had to resettle in the United States. And so it’s definitely a history that runs very close, because we have relatives that live through that refugee experience. And so it is very well and alive. And so as we now approach this conversation around ICE and deportations, it really is a reminder of the trauma that our people face, but are still facing as a people that have been seen as disposable to the United States government. Miko: Thanks, Kao Ye. Let’s talk a little bit more about that. But first I wanna say, did either of you ever hear about refugees in your textbooks? I never did. So I’m wondering if, you said you learned a little bit about that from textbooks. Was that something you learned in public education. Kao Ye: I did not learn about refugees or refugees experience. I learned about the war and as a Hmong kid it brought me so much delight to try to scroll through the history books just to see if Hmong people were mentioned. And even then the refugee experience was not ever something that we talked about. I felt like definitely not in, in high school. I think it was college really, that then started to articulate those terms and that Southeast Asian identity, that is really where I think I also became politicized in that. Miko: Yeah, because I think in textbooks there might be a little section on the Vietnam War, but it does not talk about the, all the Southeast Asian ethnic peoples that actually fought in the war. We have to dig that information out on our own, but I wanna move us to what is happening right now. So the Trump administration has created. Culture of fear among immigrants and refugees, these ICE raids and disappearances. It is so intense and using immigrants as a fear tool to prop up white supremacy is so blatant right now. I’m wondering if you can each talk about, how this administration’s policies are impacting your communities. And, Robin, let’s start with you. What is happening right now? I know since the end of March, can you share a little bit about what’s been happening with Bhutanese Americans? Robin: Sure. Sure. So our people were settled to this country with the hope that this is going to be our home. But starting March of this year, with the new policies of this current administration, we started seeing abrupt, ICE arrest in our communities. People were picked up from home, their workplaces, and from their ICE, check-ins. And, since March, within I would say two to three months, more than 72 of our community members were picked up, mostly from Pennsylvania and then Ohio, and also from other states like New York, Georgia, North Dakota. So until now, we have, the records of at least 50 people who have been deported to Bhutan and at least 72 who are detained. So more than 30 people are [at risk] of getting detained. The nature of the ICE arrests that we have seen is we don’t know whether the due processes were followed. They made it so hard for the families to look for attorneys, and also to track their family members. Within days family members would find their loved ones disappeared, and then they wouldn’t be able to talk to them they wouldn’t be able to track them and provide the support that they needed. So for us as a community organization we did not anticipate this and we were not prepared for this. And, and we didn’t have the infrastructure to really address this, right? So it became such challenging work for us. Like within days we had to mobilize our people. We had to mobilize our teams to help family members with legal support, emotional support, mobilize our community members to update what’s happening with this situation. The rapid response work, know your rights clinics that we had to set up. So on one hand it’s the detention and deportation in the US and on the other hand, when our people were deported to Bhutan, what we’re seeing is within 24 hours, they are being expelled from Bhutan to India, and then from India because India wouldn’t accept them as well, they had to enter Nepal because for most of these Deportee, they’re very young, they were born in refugee camps, and for most of them, the only known land is Nepal. Right. And they had to enter Nepal without documentation. And then some of them were found in refugee camps. And most of them are unknown. Like they’re, they have disappeared. Miko: So that is so much over the last few months that ARU has had to step in and take a leading, role in this situation that has impacted the Bhutanese community from focusing on wellness and youth development to suddenly translating materials into Nepali, translating, know Your Rights materials into Nepali, hosting all these different events, the work that you have been doing is really powerful. I wonder if you could share with us the story of Mohan Karki, who is a community member that’s currently detained in Michigan. Robin: Sure. So, Mohan Karki is now in detention in Michigan and he’s a community member member who lived in Ohio. So he was detained by ICE during his regular ICE check-in , I believe in April, they detained him and then he was taken for deportation. And last minute, the families and the community had to come together and then appeal the deportation. Right now he’s in Michgan detention center and his wife, who was pregnant and had due date, when Mohan was being deported on June 10, is now fighting day and night to stop the deportation and also to bring Mohan home. Right now, Asian Refugees United and other community partners, like AWPAL, Asian Law Caucus are working together to support Mohan’s family, to bring Mohan home and also running a, GoFund me fundraiser, to help the family pay the legal fees. Miko: Thanks Robin. And we’re gonna listen to Tikas story right now. Tika Basnet: Hi, my name is Tika Basnet I’m from Ohio and I’m fighting my husband deportation case.  So on April seven, a lot of people told us not to go to the ICE office, but my husband wanna follow the rules, he wanna go there. We went to the Westerville office inside And we sit down, we talk to each other. Nothing will go wrong. And suddenly ICE told us to come inside and they told us that my husband got travel documents from Bhutan. I told them like it is not safe for my husband to get deport in Bhutan, all the Bhutanese people run away in 1990s due to the ethnic cleansing and if my husband get deported in Bhutan, he will either gonna get killed, tortured, disappeared, imprisoned, I don’t know what will happen, but they did not listen to me. So they detained my husband and I came at the parking lot and his mom saw me coming alone. So they start crying and I told them like, Mohan is gone and this is the last time I think I’m gonna see my husband. the time that my husband was taken away from Butler County on June 10 I was 41 weeks pregnant. I was supposed to deliver on, June 10. But no, I told the doctor I change my delivery time. I am not gonna go now like I need to fight for my husband. Like, When Bhutanese people started coming here in 2007. Third party promise us that in here in United States, we will get our identity. That identity will never taken away. They promise us that the way Bhutan take our identity, they will not gonna do that. we thought that this is our home. We thought that having a green card, having a citizenship, it is permanently, but no, we are, we all are wrong. And that identity is taken away within a second. And we became stateless again. So, my husband, Mohan Karki he just arrived in the United States he been here less than two years when the incident happened. He did not understand the law. He did not understand the culture. He did not know anything.  My husband he was only 17 years old, high school student coming from school to home. On the way to reach their apartment, there is one private house. They are just trying to go to the shortcut from the backyard. So some neighbor call 9 1 1. And that only one mistake lead to deportation.  The place that we come from, there is no boundaries. In Nepal, we are allowed to go anybody property We are allowed to walk somebody else house and because of the cultural difference, he’s paying price right now.  At that time, nobody can speak English. They cannot understand what police were saying and Nepali interpreter told my husband that if you say I’m guilty, you’ll out of prison soon. But if you did not say I’m guilty, you’ll end up in prison for 20 to 25 years. High school student he’s scared he just say, I’m guilty, and he did not know what is deportation mean. He did not know what he was signing. Nobody informed him what he was signing. That signing was deportation. What happened in 2013 is impacting us in 2025 and still he wish he did not cross somebody else backyard at that time. He wish he knew that he wasn’t allowed to cross somebody else’s backyard. I don’t know what will our future is gonna be, but I hope that he gets second chance. His community love him. He love people. He was working as a truck driver. He paid taxes. He was supporting his parent. He was supporting me. My daughter deserve to have a father. You know, she’s just one month. But now the dream that I was hoping one day I’m gonna build with my husband that is taken away and I’m left alone with this child. I already went through a lot without him, i’m the only one that fighting for my husband case. The deportation is not only breaking one family, but it is breaking everybody, the community and the family. And I hope that people can support me so I can fight for my husband case. Like I really need so many attorney. I need criminal attorney to open up his 2013 case. And I have wonderful, wonderful attorney, my husband get stay off removal, but that is not guarantee my husband can get deport anytime. The attorney fee are really expensive and he still needs support. The US made bhutanese people a promise of home. We belong here. Stop the detention and deportation. Stop deporting Bhutanese people. We are stateless. We don’t have country, don’t have a home. This is our home. US is our home. We belong here. Miko: Of the 72 people, Mohan is the first Bhutanese refugee that we actually have a stay of release on, as Robin was saying earlier, most of the folks were moved from state to state, so you can’t really get a lawyer in that time. And as we all know, nonprofit immigration lawyers are under a lot of stress because of the attack of this administration. So it makes it incredibly complicated, let alone the legal fees that it costs to help support people going through this. And right now, Mohan has a stay on his, deportation and the lawyer that they do have is drafting up a letter to be able to release him into the community and also overturn his original case that happened as a minor in Georgia, which was a ridiculous case where he was leaving school, early high school, first year in the country, leaving high school early, and walked with his friends across a backyard. And the neighbor that they walked through their yard called the police, and they arrested him along with his friends for trespassing, they gave him paperwork that he didn’t even understand. He signed it along with a interpreter they gave him false information to say he’d be locked up for 25 years, or if he signed this papers, that would be fine. He could go and what the papers said was it changed his charge into a felony and had him sign a letter of deportation. So this is part of the failure of our American legal system that we’re not providing adequate information. It is a lack of due process. Thankfully, the work that Asian Law Caucus and United States of Stateless and other community activists are doing to call this out and help work with us is really critical. I wanna turn now to Kao Ye how this administrations is impacting Hmong refugees, and how is it similar or different to the experiences that Robin is describing for the Nepali speaking Bhutanese community? Kao Ye: I echoed many of the sentiments and the challenges that Robin shared around what we as nonprofit, grassroots organizations are having to build and grapple with just the limited infrastructure that we have to deal with the current ICE disappearances and deportation and all the support that’s needed for the families. And so thank you Robin, for sharing that. I wanted to start broad a little bit because I think that this Trump administration is happening in the backdrop of the 50th year commemoration of the end of the wars in Southeast Asia and the refugee resettlement. We had over 1.1 million Southeast Asians resettle to the United States, the largest immigration resettlement, in American history. And so this year brings so many complexities, I think as a Southeast Asian community where there is a level of looking back at policies that have impacted us and have failed, but also looking forward what is the community that we are building together to move and progress together. And so there are those complexities, I think as the fact that it’s the 50th year and like, this is what we’re dealing with. This is the trauma that we are grappling with. And so I wanted to put that out front and center because even I think within our communities , there is no necessarily enlightenment in terms of how we talk about what is happening to our people and how they’re getting deported unjustly. So that is why it is so important to have this dialogue within our communities as well as the solidarity that we also share with the Bhutanese community and other immigrant groups too. I think that in many of our Southeast Asian communities, their reasons for deportations is very tied to past convictions, and so this is the intersection between criminal law and immigration law. And it makes it complex because our people are now having to consult not just an immigration lawyer, but like criminal attorney so that they could really assess like what kind of relief they can get in order to mitigate, impending deportations. And then also miko you had shared about the lack of adequate legal service or representation because many of these folks, right, that have had these convictions that have now served their time and are simply members of our community that make our community rich. They are now having to revisit removal orders that they signed, thinking that, oh, nothing necessarily was gonna happen because they don’t have a repatriation agreement. So, in our community, there was never a thought that we were going to be deported back to our home country because of that policy. And so that is a big contributing factor as to why the Hmong community, we don’t have that infrastructure to really support our members who have gone through the criminal justice system and now have those removal orders. And so HIP, as well as many other grassroots. Sadly we did have to scramble to put this know your rights information together because again, I don’t think that there was visibility in the need for us in this conversation around immigration Southeast Asians are a segment of our API community and so it just, I think, multiplied the invisibility that we already faced as a group of Southeast Asians. And so the support was definitely not there. And, to Robin’s point, we did our best to try to put this information together to our community, starting with the Know Your Rights. And then we also realized like it was more complex than that, and that the legal supports were so necessary because everyone’s case was different. I think what we’re still dealing with now is that there’s always been a lack of trust between our community members and government entities and nonprofit organizations. And so, if someone is dealing with the situation, they wanna go to, a partner that they trust to help them, even if they’re not necessarily equipped to do that work, is that they’re going to only the people that they trust because there is such a big mistrust. And so I think that, there is still the level of trust building that is needed to be done within our community so that folks feel comfortable to come to us or come to other people for support. And I think what makes me feel emotional is just when I hear about community members feeling hopeless and just feeling like there’s nothing that they can do and that level of disempowerment to me, I think is something that is real. And I can’t say that we can’t combat it, but I think that it is about being able to find different outlets of support for them. Miko: Thank you for lifting that up. And just , in terms of the numbers, over three months, March, April and May, there were about 72 Bhutanese Americans that have been detained. And this is just kind of starting up with the Hmong community. So we had 15 that were detained from Minnesota and another 10 right now are being held in Michigan. And we also see this happening with Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodians, and Myan folks. All of these folks as Kao Ye you’re pointing out, have had common threads, which is connections with the system, with the criminal legal/ justice system and crimmigration is something that in the AACRE network we’ve been talking about and working on, which is really about the education to prison, to deportation pipeline. And one of the things that this administration had talked about is, let’s get rid of all the murderers and the rapists. You know, this like scare language about people that are convicted criminals, let’s get rid of them all. But the fact of the matter. The vast majority of all of these people are people like Mohan Karki, a cultural misunderstanding that happened when he was a child. Like Lou Yang, who is Hmong refugee detained in Michigan right now. Somebody who was involved in something as a kid, but has since then become a leader in the community. So let’s take a moment and listen to the spouse of Lou Yang, a Hmong refugee detained in Michigan in July. Anne Vu: My name is Anne Vu and I come before you today with a heart full of hope. Sorrow and a plea for justice. I am a proud American, a mother of six, the daughter of Hmong refugees who would gain their citizenship, and the wife of a man called Lou Yang, who is now detained and faced with potential deportation from the only country that he’s ever known. Lou has lived in Michigan since October, 1979. He was born stateless in a refugee camp in Nongkai Thailand and his family fled Laos due to persecution. His father and like many others, served with the United States force during the Vietnam War as part of the Secret War, recruited by CIA in Laos, a conflict that most Americans do not know has happened. The Hmong were recruited by the CIA as part of the Secret War to help America during the Vietnam War. But when the war ended and the US withdrew, we were as the Hmongs declared enemy of the state. What followed was genocide, polarization and persecution by the state, and it was because of our alliance, the promise made by the US government that the Hmong refugees were legally settled here under certain migration of refugee laws and acts. And Lou arrived here as a young, toddler in infancy. In 1997, he was arrested on an alleged accomplice in an attempt home invasion, second degree. He was in the vehicle at the time. He never entered the home. He literally was still a juvenile at that time. He had a court appointed attorney and was advised to take a plea without being told it would affect his immigration status for the rest of his life. This is the reality of our immigration system – long, complex, confusing and devastating, unforgiving. It is not built for people like us, people like Lou, people who have served their time, rebuilt their lives and have nowhere else to go. We’ve walked this legal path, we’ve stayed together in the lines, and yet we are here punished today. Lou has no other charges, no current legal issues, no history of violence. He is not a flight risk. He is not a danger to our public safety. He is a father, my husband, a son, a son-in-law, a grandson and a brother to many, and our leader and a provider to our community, and to my family. He renews his work authorization and follows every rule asked of him no matter how uncertain the future felt. Together, we’ve raised six beautiful children. They’re all proud Americans. Lou has contributed to Michigan’s economy for decades working in our automotive industry and now he is gone and all that he is built is unraveling and the community is heartbroken. We didn’t come from wealth. We didn’t have every opportunity handed to us because we didn’t come seeking a land of opportunity. We came here because of survival. We had to build from the ground up. But the most important thing was Lou and I, we had each other. We had our families, our friends, and our neighbors. We had a shared commitment to build a better life, grounded in love, respect, and purpose. And somehow that’s still not enough. For years, we were told like other Hmong families that Laos in Thailand would never take us back. And that has changed. In June, 2025 the US imposed a partial travel ban on Laos, citing visa overstays, and lack of deportation cooperation. And in response, Laos began issuing these documents under pressure. Today over 4,800, including Hmong, Myan, and the other ethnic minorities are facing removal to Laos and to many other countries, many have never stepped foot in a country that they are now being sent to. Lou is Stateless like many others that is detained with him. None of these countries recognize him. He was born in the Thailand refugee camp, it does not recognize him nor qualify him for any sort of Thai citizenship and I’ll tell you guys right now if forced to return, he will face danger because of his family’s deep ties to the CIA and United States military. Deporting him turns him, a civil servant and respected community leader, into a political casualty, it would be a grave and irreversible injustice. To deport him now is to punish him to death. Once again, 50 years later, as we celebrate resilience this year across the nation, we are now celebrating a fight within our own grounds, right here in United States, right here in Michigan. We’re now fighting the same fight within our own country. Thousands of Southeast Asian Americans, many that entered legally admitted as refugees are being deported for decade old offenses they’ve longed paid for. America is our country. All we ask is the right to stay in the home that we’ve helped to build and work hard to protect. We are not seeking special treatment. We are asking for justice, compassion, and a second chance in this country to claim what we believe in. To Governor Whitmer and members of Congress and all elected officials, please help bring Lou and the many others home. Urge ICE and DHS to release him on humanitarian grounds. Help his case. Help us preserve the integrity of our laws and the dignity of our families. And to the public allies and the media. Please call our elected officials. Please call these offices.  Please share Lou’s story. We need voices. Voices louder than ours alone. It is hard times you guys. It is real. And I speak to you from the bottom of my heart. Please help me and our families in the many that are suffering. This is our home. These are our children. This is my husband and this is our fight. Let him come home. Let our families be whole again, and let America keep its promise. Thank you guys for hearing me. Miko: Lou Young is a community leader. Michigan, who actually runs a nonprofit in support of Hmong folks in that community, and is targeted and also has a stay of removal. So we’re doing a targeted campaign for both of these folks, Lou Yang and Mohan Karki, to be able to get them released to overturn their original convictions and they also have spouses that are telling their stories and telling the impact these detentions have had. Because while this current administration talks about getting rid of criminals, what they are actually doing is breaking apart families and community. Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. Coming up is Deporting the Pilgrim from the Anakbayan Long Beach Mayday Mix tape.   Swati Rayasam: That was please be strong, featuring Hushed, loudmouth and Joe handsome. And before that was deporting the pilgrim from the Unec Bayan Long Beach Mayday Mixtape. Now back to the show. Miko:  I wanna shift us a little bit to talking about Asian american representation in the larger fabric of immigration justice in the United States. Mostly many of our Asian communities have been like isolated, not really involved in the broader immigration movement. And I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the difficulty and nuance of bringing your community struggle to the forefront because many of us heard about the Venezuelans and the Mexicans that have been deported and what was going on, but we don’t hear as much about these stories of our Asian sisters and brothers. I wonder if one of you could give voice to that. Robin: Before going there can I add something to  Miko: of course.  Robin: crimmigration conversation? So when you all are sharing about that, I was thinking about, the justice system in this country and what we are seeing right now is a broken justice system. Like you said, Miko, where families are separated where families are broken, and what I don’t understand is, when, let’s say your loved one gets into trouble, makes a mistake, and gets into a trouble, then, as a human being, like, don’t you want your loved ones to rebuild their lives? Like Yes, of course there is a system that you have to follow, the laws that you have to follow, but at the end, I think we all want our loved ones to come back, rebuild their lives, right? And what we’re seeing in this country is they’re constantly breaking the families. And I don’t see how we are going to build a better future when we are constantly, hurting the families. And in the cases of detention and deportation, what we’re seeing is the double punishment. Like the mistakes that they had made, but then throughout their life, they have to go through that, a continuous cycle of being punished. And not just the individuals, but their family members have also go through the challenges, the suffering, right? And in the case of Bhutanese from double punishment to double expulsion to this, the state of being statelessness. Right? So what kind of future we are imagining when an individual has to go through that continuous cycle of being punished and not having the opportunity to rebuild their lives. So that’s a big question mark that I think, we all need to think about. To your later question around my community and the larger Asian American context or the national context. My community is relatively new to this country. We lived, almost two decades in a refugee camp, which was a enclosed camp. And our lives were dependent on foreign aids like UNHCR or ILWF. Pretty much I would say we had our own world over there. And for us to work outside the refugee camp was illegal. There was no laws that gave us the permission to work outside. So we were not pretty much exposed to the outer world. So for us to come to US was a big step. Which means pretty much from basic every day stuffs like, you know, using a bathroom, using a kitchen, taking a bus. All of those were foreign for us. So for our community to really tap into the education system, the political landscape of this country. And also like the experience of being expelled for voicing our, our opinions, for fighting for our rights. Right? So for us, for our community to kind of step in into the politics, it’s like re-traumatizing ourselves. I would say there are a lot of barriers, multi-layered barriers for our community members to really tap into the larger political, like socio political landscape, from language barriers to culture barriers to education, to pretty much everything. So right now, the way our committee has been being attacked. It’s a surprise to the community. And also it is like kind of traumatizing the community and taking us back to the same place of feeling, insecure, feeling like we don’t have a home. And we did hope that this is legally, this is going to be a home. Because after coming to the US most of us became the legal citizens of this country and we started rebuilding our lives. Now it’s kind of like going back to the same circle of statelessness. Miko: Thank you for sharing about that. Kao Ye, would you like to add to that? Kao Ye: When I think of the Hmong American community and even the Southeast Asian community and why the narratives of what is happening still feels very invisible. I think of how our community, we were assimilating for survival. And I speak on that as a child of my refugee parents and siblings where growing up we were taught to, listen, not speak out, not cause trouble. Go through the system, listen to authority, listen to law enforcement. And because of that, I feel it’s shaped a culture of fear. Fear to dissent and fear to speak out because we care so much about the stability of our families. And we wanted to protect ourselves, because of everything we’ve gone through with the war. And we are finding that it’s been challenging for our community members to come forward with their stories. Honestly, we’re still sitting on that and we’re still kind of sitting through like, why is there that tension? You know, I feel like folks are going through a lot and even folks have, our impacted loved ones, but they’re afraid to tell their story because of fear of of retaliation. And so I think that there is a level of, I think that lack of even psychological safety, but real, physical, real financial safety that people have. And I think that being a factor to the assimilation, but also this facade of like the American dream and like if we don’t just disrupt, if we don’t speak out, we will be protected. And, white supremacy, right? Like we will be okay. And it’s a facade because we know that because our communities are the ones getting kidnapped and getting deported. Right. And so I think there is that fear, but there’s also recognition of this now, this facade that the silence doesn’t protect us and that there is a real need for us to really, be strong in speaking out, not just for our SEA siblings that are impacted, but for all of our immigrant groups, even the Bhutanese community, right. That’s been impacted during this time. And so I, yeah, I think it is that multi-layered experience of being a Southeast Asian refugee community on top of, being part of this AAPI umbrella. AAPI we are not homogenous. We all have very unique histories as to how we have dealt with the systems in this country and how we came into this country. And so I think it’s been challenging to make space for those nuances. And at the end of the day, I still see the interconnections that we all have together too. And so, I think it’s the willingness to make space for those different stories. And I am finding that more of our ethnic media, our smaller news outlets are more willing to cover those stories as opposed to, these larger mainstream outlets. Like they’re not covering those stories, but we are. Miko: Thank you. Oh, both of you have brought up so much today about our failed criminal justice system, about us punishing people as opposed to rehabilitating people and punishing them more than once. We brought up questions around statelessness and the impact that it has, and I just recently learned that the United States does not have any policy on Statelessness. So one of the things that this coalition of folks is trying to do is to get a congressional hearing to help the United States develop policy around statelessness, because it is actually our responsibility and our duty to do that. The other thing I hear you both talking about is this good immigrant, bad immigrant trope, which we’ve heard of a lot, but I think that’s also very much connected to why so many members of our communities don’t wanna speak out because this connection with, you know, quote unquote criminal history might be something that’s shameful. And I’m wondering if you both see that as a divide mostly between elders in the community and younger folks. Robin, do you wanna talk about that? Robin: Yeah. I mean, initially when we were mobilizing our community members to fight against the the unjust and unfair detention and deportation, this issue around the perception around good immigrants and bad immigrants became one of the main topic of discussion. We had to deal with people, and mostly elders, but I would say some young folks as well, who would pull themselves back on speaking against this issue because for them people who are being deported or detained are criminals and they deserve this kind of mindset. And not being able to see the larger picture of how the administration is targeting the immigrant and the refugee population of this country and really trying to dismantle community power, right? So, yes, it is a challenge that we are, we’re going through and I think it’s going to be quite a bit of work, to really build solidarity within our own communities. Kao Ye: I feel that the divide in the Hmong community is stemming from class and education. I feel as though when folks are articulating, regurgitating these justifications of the bad immigrant as to why folks should be deported it’s folks that maybe kind of made it in their lives and now they’re comparing themselves to folks that were not in that situation. And there is this growing within our community as well, where some folks are getting that education, getting, good jobs. But so much of our community, we still suffer from poverty, right? And so, I think that has been really interesting to witness the level of division because of class, because of income and also the education piece. Because oftentimes when folks are feeling this, it comes from a place of ignorance as well. And so that’s why I think the education piece is so important. I actually feel though our elders are more understanding because these are their children that are being separated from them. And Robin’s point is that when we have loved ones that go through the system, we just want them to rebuild their lives and be self-sufficient. And I feel like those are the values that I grew up in my community where our parents were always about keeping the family together to a fault, you know? And so they don’t want separation. They just want us to be well and to do well, and to turn our lives around. And so, I feel strongly that our elders, they do understand that the importance of giving this opportunity for us to, to stay together and turn our lives around. Miko: Thank you so much, both of you for joining me here today to talk about this important conversation. I’m wondering if you could provide our audience with how they could find out more about what is going on and what are next steps for our audience members. Robin, let’s start with you. Robin: Yeah. I just wanted to add what, Kao Ye talked about. I do agree the patterns around the divide is based on class. And I do see that in the community, and not just the class, but in our community class and caste, I would say. And in terms of the class, there were some instances where we had to deal with even the highly educated like PhD holders kind of, questioning us like, you know, what we are advocating for, and, I couldn’t understand like, I couldn’t relate the education, the title, the degree that he holds and the perception around this issue. Right. So, I just wanted to echo that. So, in terms of our work and Asian Refugees United, our website is www.asianrefugees.org And you can find us in our Instagram, Facebook, Asian Refugees United. Miko: And you can also get latest news about what’s happening at bhutaneserefugeerights.com. Yeah. And Kao Ye how can folks find out more about your work? Kao Ye: Right now HIP is part of a statewide network in California called the Pardon Refugees Campaign, where we are really pushing Governor Newsom to pardon all refugees, not just Southeast Asians because of everything that we talked about, about how our families, they deserve to stay together. And so, I don’t think we have a website up yet, but you can follow this campaign with us. We will be having a rally and press conference, coming up soon, in the next few weeks. And so, I would say that please follow us in that work where we are really moving in coalition with all of our uh, grassroots partners to advocate for our loved ones that are currently being impacted. Miko: Thank you so much, Robin Gurung, Asian Refugees United and Kao Ye Thao from Hmong Innovating Politics. Thank you so much for being with us here today, and I hope you listeners out there take action to keep our families together, to keep our people in the communities as loved ones where they belong. Thank you all. Have a great night. Swati Rayasam: I’m so grateful that Miko was able to talk to Robin and Kao Ye. And for those who missed it, visit bhutanese refugee rights.org for the most recent updates on the Bhutanese refugees. The press conference in rally Kao Ye mentioned took place last week on August 21st, 2025, but check out the Pardon Refugees Campaign for updates from the coalition supporting Hmong, Cambodian Laotian, Myan, and other refugees facing deportation. Thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by  Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar,  Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Ravi Grover, and me Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support and have a good night.   The post APEX Express – 8.28.25 – “And we became stateless again” appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   Important Resources: Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram | Learn about the Disappearances of Bhutanese American refugees: Website | Toolkit Hmong Innovating Politics: Website | Instagram Lavender Phoenix: Website | Instagram Minjoona Music: Instagram   Transcript: Cheryl (Host): Good evening. You’re tuned in to Apex Express. I’m your host, Cheryl, and tonight we’re diving into the vibrant summer programming happening across the AACRE network. That’s the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality Network. AACRE is made up of 11 Asian American social justice organizations working together to build collective power and create lasting movements .  Throughout tonight’s show, we’ll be spotlighting a few of these groups [00:01:00] and the incredible work they’re leading this summer. First up, we’re joined by Pratik from Asian refugees United Pratik. Thank you so much for being here. Do you mind introducing yourself and to kick things off in the spirit of tonight’s show, maybe share what’s something that’s been bringing you joy this summer? Pratik (ARU): Hello, namaste everyone. My name is Pratik Chhetri. He, him. I’m the program manager at ARU, Asian Refugees United in Pennsylvania. I’m originally from Nepal. I grew up in Nepal. I am an immigrant, came to the for college long time ago. And I’ve been working in social justice, health justice field for over 15 years now. Initially it was mostly around advocacy policy relating to access to medicines, issues, especially in lower and middle income countries, and the past six, seven. More than seven [00:02:00] years. I also started an organization, a nonprofit organization in Nepal, that works at the intersection of social, economic and climate justice. And with ARU, I got introduced to ARU back in 2020. So by that time I had some skills that I felt I could bring to the community. Even though I’m not from Bhutanese refugee community, I speak the language, I understand the culture to a certain extent. So I felt with the linguistic skill I could be of some help. I think right around that time COVID happened, everything and end of 2021 is when I reconnected with Robin and started talking about possibilities. For about two years, I was part of the CAMP for Emerging Leaders, the leadership program ARU has, and [00:03:00] starting last year, early this year formally, I am a staff, for ARU. I’m in charge of programs under wellness, education, and civic engagement largely but depending on time and resources, I become available for other programs as well. It’s a joy working with ARU. I was just telling Cheryl earlier that it doesn’t feel like work ‘ cause I enjoy it, working with people, getting to work on impactful programs, and being a part of an organization that has so much potential, so much responsibility, but also trying to find new ways to become, useful for the community. That’s very exciting. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): That’s great. I’m glad that your work is what’s bringing you joy this summer. That’s so special. And before we get into some of that impactful programming that you’ve been running this summer, could you [00:04:00] tell us a little bit about, ARU, Asian Refugees United  Pratik (ARU): Sure. ARU started back in 2016 in California and back then all of the programs used to be in California. The community that ARU serves since then, and even to this day are Nepali speaking, Bhutanese refugee community and Vietnamese community, Korean and other Pan-Asian community. After the pandemic, there has been a lot of secondary migration of the Bhutanese folks from across the United States to two major locations. One being central PA around Harrisburg area and Pennsylvania, and the second one around Columbus, Ohio, and other major cities in Ohio. The secondary migration mostly to Pennsylvania triggered a, shifting of ARU programs, to Pennsylvania as well in addition to [00:05:00] California. So at this point in 2025, the Pennsylvania side of ARU caters to the Nepali speaking Bhutanese folks. And the California side of ARU works with Vietnamese, Korean, and other Asian communities. I work with the Pennsylvania, ARU, and here we have four different pillars around health and wellness, education, art and storytelling. And the fourth one is civic engagement, and that is the newest one. I can talk about programs under each of the pillars but for summer the programs that is bringing me joy, not only for me, but also ARU’s staffs is this longitudinal five month long leadership program called Camp for Emerging Leaders, where we recruit Nepali speaking folks from all across United States, and they go through virtual sessions every other [00:06:00] week on, history to the story of displacement, intergenerational trauma. How it started, how it used to be back in Bhutan, how it used to be in the refugee camps in Nepal, and now how it is in the US and Canada, wherever they are. So end of summer, end of July, early August is when all of those cohort members, the youth leaders will come physically to Harrisburg and we’ll spend a few days here connecting with each other, building that trust, but also working together to build projects for the community, addressing community challenges that’s happening. And for that I think five or six of the ARU staff from California are also coming. We have guest speakers. I think one of them is coming from all the way from Australia. It’s fun. Largely I think [00:07:00] I’m looking forward to meeting with all of these youth leaders who have so much potential to do, so much good, not only for Bhutanese community, Nepali speaking, south Asian community, but also, their potential goes beyond that, yeah.  Cheryl (Host): It is powerful to hear how ARU’s work has evolved and now spans across the nation, and also how Camp for Emerging Leaders is creating space for Nepali speaking Bhutanese youth to reflect their community’s history, build deep connections, and grow as leaders. You mentioned that during the summer youth leaders gather in Harrisburg to create community projects. Could you share more about what kinds of projects they’re working on and what kind of issues they’re hoping to address? Pratik (ARU): For education, one of the main ones that we just concluded is, so we started high school success program called First Step Forward. And the interesting thing, the exciting thing about this program [00:08:00] is the concept of First Step forward from one of the Camp for Emerging Leaders cohort from two years ago. And similarly so that’s how most of ARU programs have been. The ARU Youth Center, the ARU Office, that concept also started from the camp for emerging leaders. There are a couple other programs ARU does. Youth Wellness Day. That started from the camp as well. For the First Step Forward, what we do is early winter of, I think January or February we accepted a cohort of 10. These were high school juniors and seniors, and largely the purpose of the program is to make sure that they are well equipped for college and for any other professional avenues they end up going even if higher education is not for them. We did a lot of like leadership sessions, public speaking [00:09:00] sessions, like how to write essays, how to apply for different scholarships. We just concluded it literally last Saturday, we went hiking and went to one of the Six Flags amusement parks. But learning from that program, we are scaling it up. We’re taking 20 people next year, and we will do it a year long cohort. So starting from September up until May, June. We’ll integrate college tours, not only for the kids, but also for their family because in Bhutanese community and Nepali speaking folks a lot of the times the parents do not understand how the system works, even with their best intent and best intention. So along with the students, it is very important for us to work with the family, the parents as much as possible to take them through the process, right? On education, we also do a lot of cultural navigation training to [00:10:00] different county level and different governance agencies. Some of the cultural navigation trainings that we did in the past year that I can think of is we did one for the. Panel of judges from Dauphin County, which is where Harrisburg is. We did similar thing for different school districts in Dauphin and Cumberland County, different nearby counties for juvenile probation unit, child and youth services. And while we do that, as an organization, it gave us a better sense of where the gaps are, especially for parents to run into difficulties. ’cause a lot of times, for example, if a kid is sent home with a sheet of paper, even when it’s bilingual, because their movement happened from Nepal to Bhutan, such a long time ago, a lot of the folks in the community speak the language but do not understand how to read or write the [00:11:00] language. So there are double language barrier, right? When a kid is called into a meeting or a disciplinary meeting, the parents a lot of times don’t even look at the sheet of paper or don’t know where to show up or how to show up or what to expect. Based on those things we’re using that knowledge and experience to design further programs in the future. That’s just for education. With civic engagement, for example, this 2024 cycle was the first election for our community members to vote in their lifetime. Back in Bhutan they didn’t have that opportunity and then they spent decades in refugee camps, and it took most of them some time to get the green cards and five years after Green card to secure their citizenship. So we saw a lot of even elderly folks show up to voting. That was their first time that they were voting. And when that happens, it’s not [00:12:00] just generic voter education. It’s teaching the community how to register, where to register, where to show up at the precincts. A lot of precincts we were seeing, 30 to 40% of the folks show up to the wrong precincts. So there’s a lot of need, but also in 2024 we saw, unfortunately, a lot of folks fall victim to misinformation and disinformation. So there’s that need to do something about that part as well in the future. One of the things we started doing under civic engagement work is not just teach folks where to register, how to register on voter education, but also preparing some of the community members to run for office.  Two or three weeks ago, mid-June, we did our first round of run for office training. We partner up with another organization called Lead PA. And even for the folks who showed up, all of us [00:13:00] are politically inclined, educated to a certain extent, and a lot of the things that were shared in that training, it was mostly new to us, especially around local government. Like what are the positions that they are and how so many important positions, people run unopposed and what kind of ramifications that might have for our daily lives. Right. Starting 2026 election cycle, we’re hoping some of our trainees run for office as well, starting from school board to all the way, wherever they want to. And there are wellness focused events, youth wellness Day that I talked about, around mental health is one of the great needs for the community. One piece of data might be very important to mention, based on CDCs 20 12 data, there was a report out, the research was conducted in 2012, and the report came out in 2014, basically what it said [00:14:00] was, Bhutanese folks in the US have the highest of suicide in the whole nation, and that’s something that has not received a lot of attention or resources because generally those numbers get mixed up with generic Asian data and the numbers get diluted. Right. So one of the things, what, as an organization, what we are trying to do is bring awareness to that number. And the other thing is like, it’s been over 10 years since that study happened and there has not been a follow-up study. What we are seeing is previously how mental health and it’s ramifications how it was affecting the community, it was mostly about 10 years ago, mostly affecting older folks. Now we are seeing a lot of younger folks commit suicide or suicidal attempts. So there is a lot of work in that respect as [00:15:00] well. These are also some of the very crucial topics to work on. But as an organization, we are taking baby steps toward being able to efficiently address the community needs. I missed some of them, but overall, our organizational goal is to empower the community in one way or the other. And one of the tools that we use is focusing on youths because youths in the community, similar to other immigrant communities, our youths are mostly bilingual, bicultural, and many times they’re the translators and system navigators for their whole family. And in many cases their extended family as well. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Wow. There are so many layers to the work that you all do. From developing leaders to run for office, to supporting mental health, to helping folks navigate voting and helping folks access higher education or career pathways.[00:16:00]  That’s such a wide scope, and I imagine it takes a lot to hold all of that. How do you all manage to balance so much, especially with a small team, is that right?  Pratik (ARU): Yes. Technically we only have one full-time staff. Most are part-time, but ranging from. 10% to 80%. Largely we rely on the community members, volunteers, and we pay the volunteers when we can. And other times, I think it speaks to how much time and effort and how genuinely, folks like Robin, who is the co ED of ARU and Parsu who is the office manager, and other folks in Harrisburg, connected with different community leaders, folks of different subgroups over the years. So. When ARU moved to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania post pandemic, it took them a while to get the hang of the community, the growing community. Back then it used to [00:17:00] be 10, 20,000 max in central PA and now our estimation is like 70, 80,000 in central PA. It took them a while to create space of trust, that ARU are people that they can come for when they run into problems. And even when we don’t have a lot of resources, people show up. People volunteer. People volunteer their time, their spaces for meetings and events. Yeah. And that’s how we’ve been running it. I feel like we do five or 10 x amount of work with the resources that we have, but that’s largely because of the perception the community has about Robin, about Parsu, about other individuals, and about the organization.  Cheryl (Host): That’s so amazing. ARU clearly has such deep community roots, not just through the incredible work that of course Robin, [00:18:00] Parsu and so many others you have named have done to build lasting relationships that now sustain the work in the organization, but also I think it’s also evident in the examples you’ve shared through Camp for Emerging Leaders, how you all really listen to youth and learn from their experiences. And you all shape programs that respond directly to the needs that you’re seeing. And in that same spirit of care and commitment that is reflected in ARU’s amazing staff and volunteers. I’m curious, are there any moments or memories from camp for emerging leaders that stand out to you? I imagine there must be so many.  Pratik (ARU): Yeah. Many stories. I started attending and facilitating the sessions for the camp I from 2022 cohort and maybe even 23 cohort. I think this is the third one that I’m doing. I’ll talk about Kamana. [00:19:00] Kamana joined the 23 cohort and at that time she was still in high school. But you know, she was bubbly, full of energy and she was one of the pretty active members of the cohort and eventually after the cohort, she ended up joining ARU as initially, I think as an intern, and now she is the lead of the education program. She will be a sophomore or rising junior, starting this fall. But now she’ll be running the education program, First Step Forward. Primarily it was internally us staff, we see the growth in them with experience. But also I think one of the things that ARU does is we create a sort of non-hierarchical structure within our office space in the sense that anyone can [00:20:00] design a program or any idea, and they do not feel intimidated to speaking up. I think because of that, people like Kamana, I can talk about other folks like Nawal. Them growing within ARU space shows not just with experience, but also I think the kind of open and inclusive and non hierarchical space that we create they feel comfortable enough in leading. A lot of times when we have , X, y, and Z needs to be done in the group chat, people just volunteer. Even when they don’t get paid, we see our staff, our volunteer base just show up time and time again. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Wow. ARU is such a special container. You’ve created this beautiful space where people can grow and then also have agency to shape that container in whatever way that they want. That is so special. How can listeners support your work this [00:21:00] summer? Whether that’s showing up or donating or volunteering or spreading the word.  Pratik (ARU): One of the things is for the listeners, I feel like not a lot of folks know about Bhutanese community much. So yes, they speak Nepali. They sometimes they identify as Nepali because it’s just easy. , Bhutanese folks normally identify as either Bhutanese or Nepali or American or any combination of those three identities. A lot of folks do not know, including folks from Nepal about the atrocity, the trauma that the community went through had to go through the forced persecution out of Bhutan and then living under very limited means while in the refugee camps in Nepal and even the number of challenges the community still [00:22:00] faces. I talked a little bit about mental health needs. There’s. There are needs around, health seeking behavior and similar to other immigrant communities as well, but also, on education. Because of the historical division around caste and class and other demographic details, certain folks in the community are geared towards success versus others aren’t. And we see that. We see the pattern quite distinct by their indigeneity, by their caste, by their last names. In our community you can tell what their caste is, what their ethnic background is with their last names. So I would invite the audience to learn a little bit more about this community and if you have that space and resources [00:23:00] to be, if you’re a researcher, if you want to do some research studies, if you want to bring some programs. If you have scholarship ideas, if you want to create any scholarship for the kids in the community, or if you have means, and if you can donate, either or. It doesn’t have to be just, financial resources. It can be sometimes being available as mentor to some of the kids to show them these are the possibilities. To summarize, learn more about the community if you don’t know already including some of the new atrocities, the community’s facing right now with ICE detention and deportation, even when the community was brought in to this country after years and years of approval through the process. And if you have resources and means help with knowledge sharing, being available or with [00:24:00] financial means either or. I just wanted to mention that I work with ARU and I work with the Bhutanese community, but like I said, I’m not from the Bhutan community. I grew up in Nepal. I speak the language, I understand the culture to a certain extent, but I definitely cannot speak for the experience of going and living as a refugee. So,, if you have any question, if you want to learn more about that, Cheryl and I, we are happy to put you in touch with folks with incredible stories, inspiring stories of resilience in the community. Cheryl (Host): Thank you so much. All of the links, whether to learn more, donate or get involved, as well as information about the disappearances impacting the Bhutanese American community will be included in our show notes. A huge thank you to Pratik from Asian Refugees United for joining us tonight. We’re deeply grateful for the work you do and the love you carry for our [00:25:00] communities. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. We’re going to take a quick music break and when we come back we’ll hear more about the summer programming happening across the AACRE network with folks from Lavender Phoenix, and Hmong innovating politics. So don’t go anywhere. Next up, you’re listening to a track called “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright. This track features Ari Statler on bass, josh Qiyan on drums, and Ryan Fu producing. Juniper is the lead single from Minjoona’s newest release, the Juniper EP, a five track p roject rooted in indie rock, 60 throwback vibes, and lyric forward storytelling. You can follow Minjoona on Instagram at @minjoonamusic or find them on Spotify to keep up with upcoming releases. We’ll drop the links in our show notes. Enjoy the track and we’ll be right back. [00:26:00] [00:27:00] [00:28:00] [00:29:00] [00:30:00]  And we’re back!!. You’re listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. That was “Juniper” by Minjoona.  Huge thanks to Jackson Wright and the whole crew behind that track [00:31:00] Before the break, we were live with Pratik from Asian Refugees United, talking about the powerful summer programming, supporting the Nepalese speaking Bhutanese community in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Now I’m joined by from Blair Phoenix. From Lavender Phoenix, who’s here to share about her experiences as a summer organizer In Lav N’S annual summer in Lav N’s annual summer organizer in Lav N’S annual summer organizing program. Hi Mar. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for being here. Do you mind introducing yourself to our listeners? Okay. Mar, do you mind for our listeners out there who are just tuning in, do you mind introducing yourself? Mar (LavNix): Yes. Thank you, Cheryl. Hi, y’all. My name is Mar Pronouns, [00:32:00] she/siya/any! I come from the lands of the Ibaloi people in the Philippines or “Maharlika”. I am a queer Muslim and yeah, I’m just happy to be here. Cheryl (Host): Yay. We’re so happy to have you here, mar! For those who might not be familiar, Mar is joining us from Lavender Phoenix as part of this year’s summer organizing program. Mar,, could you start by giving our listeners a quick introduction to Lavender Phoenix? And then could you tell us a little bit about the summer organizing program and what it’s all about? Mar (LavNix): Yeah, of course. Cheryl. Let’s start with Lavender Phoenix. Lavender Phoenix is a really awesome nonprofit over here in the Bay Area who focus on trans queer, API. Work basically. I really love Lavender Phoenix because of their unwavering commitment to collective liberation [00:33:00] and the very specific focus and centering around trans queer API leadership because our leadership is often underrepresented and because there’s so many intersections there, we need to have trans queer API leadership to be able to move the work. And so really fond of lavender Phoenix’s ethos and mission values. This year for the summer 2025, I’m part of their summer organizer program, which is a cohort of organizers both emerging, established and wanting to learn, and we learn a lot of transformative interpersonal organizing skills, but also building our more technical skill sets alongside with that. So we’re actually three weeks from graduation [00:34:00] nooooooooo!. Anyways, yeah, just really happy to be in this cohort. I’m feeling really aligned in that I am here and it is transforming me in the way I had intentions for when I applied for it. Cheryl (Host): Wow. It sounds like this was a really impactful program for you. I wanna know what kinds of projects are you all working on?  Mar (LavNix): Yeah, so it’s really beautiful because it’s not just like a single project the cohort works on, it’s kind of a myriad of things. We have two folks who are doing projects with other organizations, and then we have the rest of the folks working on two projects within Lavender Phoenix’s programming. And so for my group, my very awesome group, we are doing the River of Life Project, and the River of Life Project is a five week long cohort where we practice storytelling in a very vulnerable and honest way, and this is for the [00:35:00] purpose to really witness one another and to cultivate our storytelling skills because our stories and narratives is so important. There’s whole states and governments trying to take that away from us, and so our project is to guide and facilitate this project and meet with members across rank. It’s super cool seeing the different facets of lavender Phoenix come together and be down, to be in the act of vulnerability and honesty and that is their praxis for collective liberation. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Yeah. Yeah. That’s so well said. And it’s so important that we have these spaces to practice that vulnerability because we are so often punished for being who we are. Right. So, mm-hmm. These programs are so crucial as you have uplifted for us. I am so curious to learn more about this River of Life project, but [00:36:00] also before we even get to that, I wanna zoom out a little bit and focus on your growth and who are you now as you get closer three weeks from graduation?  Mar (LavNix): Ooh, that is such a beautiful question, Cheryl. Yeah. I’ve been really reflecting on how this program transformed me this summer and to bring us back to when I first applied. I first applied sometime in March, I believe. I remember ’cause it was around Ramadan. I was at a point in my life where I felt stagnant in my organizing journey. I would attend all these workshops, I would keep reading, but there was a disconnect in how my mind wanted to move next. So here we are in 2025, I was accepted into the program. I was like, yay, my people. And you know, [00:37:00] my expectations was met. In fact, it was exceeded. Very exceeded because I didn’t know these things that i’m learning now. I didn’t know how much I needed them until I learned them. In my time with Lavender Phoenix, as I’m reflecting to this point, graduation being three weeks out, I realized that before joining this cohort, my heart and my spirit was in a really bad place, and I think a lot of people could resonate. There’s genocides, ethnic cleansings, and just terrible things happening all over the world, and there’s like a dichotomy of people who are trying so hard and then there’s a dichotomy of people who are unaffected by it. And so my spirit and my heart was so broken down seems really dramatic, but it wasn’t being rejuvenated for sure. And so, being in this space and being in a [00:38:00] container that’s just honesty and vulnerability and it’s all rooted in each other’s liberation really replenish that cup. The teachings and the knowledge and the wisdom that I’m getting, it’s helping me add more to my North Star, which I’m really thankful of because I didn’t know this is what I needed in March. Cheryl (Host): That is so beautiful. So much of what’s going on right now by the systems that be, the powers that be, it’s meant to isolate us and to make us feel exactly what you said. Capitalism isolates us and keeps us in that place because that’s how it benefits . So Lavender Phoenix is summer organizing program, what I’m hearing from you is this revolutionary space that is counter to that. It’s filled with hope and dreaming for a better world. So how is that being informed in River of Life, in the storytelling leadership development that you are developing within Lavender Phoenix’s membership?  Mar (LavNix): Oh, yes. I’m [00:39:00] understanding the responsibility on how I move in this space. And so before the cohort of the River of Life project presents, it’s actually gonna be me and another facilitator going to share our stories. And so we’re also in the act of being vulnerable and honest and really wanting the others to witness us as we will witness them. We’ve removed kind of that superiority in that space. When I think of this, it brings me back to Freire’s idea of an engaged pedagogy, but not necessarily like an educator and a student, but like removing hierarchies, which I think is really, a value that’s rooted in, or lavender Phoenix is rooted in that value. There’s no hierarchy, but there is ranks and we all see each other as equals. It’s really beautiful to be able to see that and then know how I move in this [00:40:00] space to prepare our cohort. I hope that my storytelling, I can only hope, I do not know how it’s gonna be received inshallah it’s received super well. But I really do hope that they see how vulnerable I also get and how I’m doing this so that I could build deeper relationships with these people as I continue my journey with Lavender, Phoenix and to them as well. I hope these values, if not already present in our people, this project helps them cultivate that even further.  Cheryl (Host): I wanna ask what is something you want to share with our listeners who were in a similar space as you who felt lost and that they wanted something to grow in. What advice would you give?  Mar (LavNix): This is a really beautiful question [00:41:00] and So many things flooded my brain as you were asking this question, but i’m feeling more pulled and called to share this one thing . As I’m going through the summer organizer program, I really realized the importance of tending to myself so that I could show up for others. I have to be able to know how to advocate for my needs and what I need so that I can be in spaces with other people. It’s so important that I know how to acknowledge my shame or whatever pain points I’m experiencing and let that not be a hindrance to the work, but integrate it in a way that I will tend to it, and by tending to it, I can continue doing the work. And I know it’s really [00:42:00] hard to prioritize yourself when it feels like you should prioritize everything else in the world right now, but I am really learning that that’s what I needed to do. When I say prioritize myself, I’m not saying oh, I need to go do this and I need to go drink all my water. Yes, also care for our physical bodies and our mental bodies, but also taking time to know who I am as a person and what I could offer to the movement, and knowing how to communicate to others in the movement so that I could show up as a better organizer. And so the final words that I will have to share is I hope everyone who’s hearing this shows the love that they have for other people to themselves [00:43:00] too.  Cheryl (Host): That was so beautiful. What you just shared right now about tending to yourself that’s part of the work too. And that’s so counterintuitive, I feel. This project that you’re leading, the river of life where the focus is so much on your story and honoring who you are, I think that is the true essence of what it means to be trans and queer. Showing up with your whole self and embracing that. And in turn, by doing that, you are holding everybody else too, that very practice. To find out more about Lavender Phoenix Mar, how can our listeners plug into Lavender Phoenix’s work?  Mar (LavNix): Follow us on Instagram or check out Lavender, Phoenix website. We post a lot. Sign up for the newsletter. Volunteer. We’re really cool. Or just look at the staff and see if anybody calls you and you wanna hit them up. We’re so awesome. Cheryl (Host): Thank you for joining us on tonight’s show, Mar, and for sharing your experiences on Lavender Phoenix’s [00:44:00] summer organizing program with all of All of the links that Mar mentioned on how to stay in touch with Lavender Phoenix’s work be available in our show notes as per usual. We are so grateful, thank you again, Mar! Next up, we’re joined by Katie from Hmong Innovating Politics. Katie. Welcome, welcome. I’m so happy to have you on our show tonight. Would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners? Katie (HIP): Hi everyone. My name is Katie. I use she her pronouns. My Hmong name is ING and I mainly introduce myself as ING to my community, especially elders because one ING is my given name. Katie is like a self-assigned name. In my work with HIP I’ve been trying to figure out what feels more natural when, but I do catch myself introducing myself to my Hmong community. And yeah, I’m totally cool if folks referring to me as Katie Oring and my ask is just pronouncing my name correctly. Who are my people? Who’s my community? I would say my community is my family. And then the young people that I work [00:45:00] with, the elders in my community, the ones who would like to claim me, my team. I would say Hmong women that I’ve met through some of the work that I do at my volunteer org, and oh my goodness, there’re so many people. My friends, oh my gosh, if my friends are listening to this, my friends are my community, they’re my people. They keep me grounded, alive and fun. My siblings. All of the folks in Fresno and Sacramento that have been a part of the spaces that I’ve shared at HIP and the spaces that we’ve created together.  Cheryl (Host): You are a community leader through and through . For folks who are listening and don’t know, Hmong Innovating Politics is one of the AACRE groups and it has two different hubs basically in Central California, one in Sacramento, and one in Fresno. Katie, do you mind sharing a little bit about HIP and the work that you all do? Katie (HIP): Yeah. So, we are a power building organization and what does that mean, right? One is that we are [00:46:00] a part of empowering and supporting our community to become active change makers in their community. We believe that those who are most impacted by issues should also be the ones that receive resources and training to lead solutions and design, the dreams of their community. A framework that we use is called Belong Believe Become. We want to create space where young people feel their belongingness, know that they are rooted here in their community, and that they have a place. The believing part of our framework is that we want young people to also see themselves and see themselves as leaders. In their community and leadership can mean many forms, right? There’s like passive and active leadership, and we want young people to know that there is enough space in this world for everyone in whichever capacity, they’re choosing to show up in their community. The important piece of believing is that, believing that you also like matter and that your decisions are also impactful. And then become is that. [00:47:00] we share this framework and it’s circular because we notice that some people can come into our space feeling like I know exactly who I’m gonna be. I know exactly what I wanna do, and feel really disconnected from their history and their, and the multiple parts of their identities. belong, believe become is cyclical and it’s wherever you’re at. And in this third piece of becoming it is that our young people know that they are leading the charge and transforming systems. That they are shifting the narratives of our community, that they get to own the narratives of our community, and that they are a part of the Power building our community as well. Cheryl (Host): Yeah, I love that . As we’re talking, I’m noticing that you talk so much about young people and how so much of your work’s framework is centered around young people. Do you mind giving context into that? So much of HIP’s programming is on youth leadership, and so I’m wondering what does that look like programming wise and especially right now in the summer? Katie (HIP): Yeah, so it’s more [00:48:00] recently that HIP has been identifying ourselves as a power building organization. Before we had claimed our work as base building, and this is through our civic engagement work for voter engagement and empowerment, and turning out the vote that, that is like what we, our organization was like centered on. Through that work, what we noticed was that like cycles and seasons after season, it was young people coming back and then they started asking are you all gonna have like consistent programming space for us, or is it just gonna always be around the election cycle? Through our civic engagement work, a framework that we use is the IVE model, integrated voter engagement. And that is that you are relationship building year after year, even outside of the election season. And so then it was how do we be more intentional about centering the people who are coming to us and centering the people who are shifting and challenging and pushing our leadership. And that was to [00:49:00] then move and prioritize the young people in our community. I think it’s been maybe four or five years since this shift where we’ve really prioritized young people and really centered our work around youth justice. So then we had to create these spaces. Civic engagement work had primarily consisted of phone banking and canvassing and through that I think a lot of young people were then getting firsthand experience of this is like what it’s like to be angry about these issue in my community. This is also what it’s like to hold space for other people to go through and process their emotions. And then it was like, how do we train and skill up our young people to not only listen to their community, but be able to strategize and lead and take their ideas and dreams and put ’em into action. At the time folks working in our civic engagement programs were high school youth, college transitional age, young adults who are not in college. And we even had parent [00:50:00] age folks in our programs as well. In figuring out how do we better support our young folks was that a lot of young people were asking for more like designated space for youth that are in high school. The other request was can you all not be college based because not all young adults go to college in our community, yet we still wanted to access the programs. We had to strategize around these pieces. Also at the time when we were running civic engagement program, we were also building up our trans and queer work in the Central Valley and figuring out like what is HIP’s place in this work? So that landed us into three programs. We have a program called Tsev which is TSEV. Um, and that means House in Hmong, but it’s an acronym. It stands for Transforming Systems, empowering Our Village, and the reason why we named our youth program that is in the Hmong community, we refer to our community a lot “lub zos” which means village in English. And so that is why we wanted to name our program with something around the word village and then also [00:51:00] home, belongingness, right? We wanted our program to signify belonging. And so that is what landed us in this program. This program is based at a high school and we train cohorts of youth and the curriculum that we cover in all of our programs are pretty similar, but they are adjusted to be more relevant to the age group and the experiences that we are serving. So we have our high school program. We have our trans and queer young adult program called QHIP, queer Hmong intersectional Pride. And then we also have a young adult program called the Civic Engagement Fellowship, but I feel like we’re gonna be revamping next year, so we might have a new name next year. And that one is, open to all young adults of all gender and sexuality. The projects that is focused in that is what’s coming up on the election. So specific propositions and measures or whatever we are bringing to the ballot. And then with QHIP, it is very focused on intentionally building up leadership in the trans and queer community. [00:52:00] Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): You all tackle power building in so many different intersections, and I think that’s so brilliant. You really tailor these spaces to the needs of your community and you’re always listening to your community. That is honestly such a theme within the AACRE network. Could you tell us how these groups stay active during the summer?  Katie (HIP): Yeah! During the summer, we close off the cohort in June when the school year ends. And so we’re actually in the assessment phase of this program right now. Our seniors throughout the summer go through a one-on-one exit with one of the staff in Fresno or Sacramento. After the senior exit closes out, then we’ll be doing a overall annual assessment with all of the young people that were in the program this year. We’re actually closing both these pieces out next week. We try to make things fun, right? So for the one-on-ones, we’ll all come to the office and we’ll have the one-on-one exit interviews and after that we’ll go get lunch. somewhere cute, somewhere fun. Then with the end of the year evals, after we complete them for everyone, we’ll just hang out. This [00:53:00] year we’re planning to do like a paint by numbers night. And then we always somehow end up karaoking. For QHIP, our trans and queer young adult program we actually partner with Lavender Phoenix and have them attend the leadership exchange program that’s happening right now. We did our own onboarding and then we celebrated the month of pride. And we also celebrated the trans march. Then after that transition into the leadership exchange program at Lavender Phoenix. After that program, I believe our lead members are going to be designing some projects this summer. And then they’ll have the rest of the summer and hours to do their projects, and then we’ll eventually close out with a retreat with them. Cheryl (Host): And for our listeners out there, do you mind giving a quick a preview on what lavender, Phoenix’s leadership exchange program is and how you all work in tandem with each other?  Katie (HIP): Yeah. Okay. I know in the past, we’ve sent our more new to organizing leaders [00:54:00] to the leadership exchange program. This year the intention is that we wanted to send leaders from our community who might already have some organizing experience who have some experience in social justice and movement work. And so, during this I think some of my favorite things from the leadership exchange program is teaching folks how to ask for help. I think a lot of our young adults navigate their lives not knowing who to turn to for help and how to formulate and ask that is clear and supportive of their needs. So that’s something that we really appreciate through the leadership exchange program. And another piece is mutual aid funding. Lavender Phoenix trains up leaders around fundraising support and that’s something I’m really looking forward to our young people gaining. The other piece is ultimately training of trans and queer leaders in our community so that we can continue to sustain this movement and this lifelong work of trans and queer liberation. The leadership exchange program has been able to equip folks with very necessary skills so that they can continue to sustain trans and queer [00:55:00] leadership. I bring in the fundraising piece because, I think a lot of young people that I work with, they’re so scared to ask for resource support, especially money. And I think a lot of it comes with our own family trauma around finances, right? So, I’m excited to see what they debrief about and what they reflect on.  Cheryl (Host): That’s so amazing. It really sounds like all of these programs that you all do are really building up leaders for the long term of our movements. Asking for help is so related to navigating money, trauma and is so key in shaping liberatory futures. For folks out there who wanna get plugged into some of HIP’s programming work, how can we stay in touch with you all? Katie (HIP): Our Instagram is the best spot. And then on our Instagram you can click on the little short link to sign up for our newsletter. We have some volunteer opportunities coming up in the month of August so if folks in the Central Valley wanna support with one of our community engagement [00:56:00] surveys, either to partake in the survey or to support us in doing the outreach and getting the word out so that folks complete the survey. There’s two ways that you can participate with us. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Thanks, Katie, and of course all of those links will be available in our show notes. Thanks so much for coming on our show tonight, Katie, and thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We’ll see you next time. [00:57:00] [00:58:00]  The post APEX Express – August 21, 2025 Sumer Programming in the AACRE Network appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   In this two-part series of Oakland Asian Cultural Center’s “Let’s Talk” podcast Eastside Arts Alliance is featured. Elena Serrano and Susanne Takehara, two of the founders of Eastside Arts Alliance, and staff member Aubrey Pandori will discuss the history that led to the formation of Eastside and their deep work around multi-racial solidarity.   Transcript: Let’s Talk podcast episode 9  [00:00:00] Emma: My name is Emma Grover, and I am the program and communications coordinator at the Oakland Asian Cultural Center, known also as OACC. Today we are sharing the ninth episode of our Let’s Talk Audio Series. Let’s Talk is part of OACC’S Open Ears for Change Initiative, which was established in 2020. With this series, our goals are to address anti-Blackness in the APIA communities, discuss the effects of colorism and racism in a safe space, and highlight Black and Asian solidarity and community efforts specifically in the Oakland Chinatown area. Today’s episode is a round table discussion with Elena Serrano, Susanne Takahara, and Aubrey Pandori of Eastside Arts Alliance.  [00:00:53] Aubrey: Hello everybody. This is Aubrey from Eastside Arts Alliance, and I am back here for the second part of our Let’s Talk with Suzanne and Elena. We’re gonna be talking about what else Eastside is doing right now in the community. The importance of art in activism, and the importance of Black and Asian solidarity in Oakland and beyond.  So I am the community archivist here at Eastside Arts Alliances. I run CARP, which stands for Community Archival Resource Project. It is a project brought on by one of our co-founders, Greg Morozumi. And it is primarily a large chunk of his own collection from over the years, but it is a Third World archive with many artifacts, journals, pens, newspapers from social movements in the Bay Area and beyond, international social movements from the 1960s forward. We do a few different programs through CARP. I sometimes have archival exhibitions. We do public engagement through panels, community archiving days. We collaborate with other community archives like the Bay Area Lesbian Archives and Freedom Archives here in Oakland and the Bay Area. And we are also working on opening up our Greg Morozumi Reading Room in May. So that is an opportunity for people to come in and relax, read books, host reading groups, or discussions with their community. We’re also gonna be opening a lending system so people are able to check out books to take home and read. There’ll be library cards coming soon for that and other fun things to come.  [00:02:44] So Suzanne, what are you working on at Eastside right now? [00:02:48] Susanne: Well, for the past like eight or nine years I’ve been working with Jose Ome Navarrete and Debbie Kajiyama of NAKA Dance Theater to produce Live Arts and Resistance (LAIR), which is a Dance Theater Performance series. We’ve included many artists who, some of them started out here at Eastside and then grew to international fame, such as Dohee Lee, and then Amara Tabor-Smith has graced our stages for several years with House Full of Black Women. This year we’re working with Joti Singh on Ghadar Geet: Blood and Ink, a piece she choreographed, and shot in film and it’s a multimedia kind of experience. We’ve worked with Cat Brooks and many emerging other artists who are emerging or from all over, mostly Oakland, but beyond. It’s a place where people can just experiment and not worry about a lot of the regulations that bigger theaters have. Using the outside, the inside, the walls, the ceiling sometimes. It’s been an exciting experience to work with so many different artists in our space.  [00:04:03] Elena: And I have been trying to just get the word out to as many different folks who can help sustain the organization as possible about the importance of the work we do here. So my main job with Eastside has been raising money. But what we’re doing now is looking at cultural centers like Eastside, like Oakland Asian Cultural Center, like the Malonga Casquelord Center, like Black Cultural Zone, like the Fruitvale Plaza and CURJ’s work. These really integral cultural hubs. In neighborhoods and how important those spaces are.  [00:04:42] So looking at, you know, what we bring to the table with the archives, which serve the artistic community, the organizing community. There’s a big emphasis, and we had mentioned some of this in the first episode around knowing the history and context of how we got here so we can kind of maneuver our way out. And that’s where books and movies and posters and artists who have been doing this work for so long before us come into play in the archives and then having it all manifest on the stage through programs like LAIR, where theater artists and dancers and musicians, and it’s totally multimedia, and there’s so much information like how to keep those types of places going is really critical.  [00:05:28] And especially now when public dollars have mostly been cut, like the City of Oakland hardly gave money to the arts anyway, and they tried to eliminate the entire thing. Then they’re coming back with tiny bits of money. But we’re trying to take the approach like, please, let’s look at where our tax dollars go. What’s important in a neighborhood? What has to stay and how can we all work together to make that happen?  [00:05:52] Susanne: And I want to say that our Cultural Center theater is a space that is rented out very affordably to not just artists, but also many organizations that are doing Movement work, such as Palestinian Youth Movement, Bala, Mujeres Unidas Y Activas, QT at Cafe Duo Refugees, United Haiti Action Committee, Freedom Archives, Oakland Sin Fronteras, Center for CPE, and many artists connected groups.  [00:06:22] Aubrey: Yeah, I mean, we do so much more than what’s in the theater and Archive too, we do a lot of different youth programs such as Girl Project, Neighborhood Arts, where we do public murals. One of our collective members, Angie and Leslie, worked on Paint the Town this past year. We also have our gallery in between the Cultural Center and Bandung Books, our bookstore, which houses our archive. We are celebrating our 25th anniversary exhibition.  [00:06:54] Susanne: And one of the other exhibits we just wrapped up was Style Messengers, an exhibit of graffiti work from Dime, Spy and Surge, Bay Area artists and Surge is from New York City, kind of illustrating the history of graffiti and social commentary.  [00:07:30] Elena: We are in this studio here recording and this is the studio of our youth music program Beats Flows, and I love we’re sitting here with this portrait of Amiri Baraka, who had a lot to say to us all the time. So it’s so appropriate that when the young people are in the studio, they have this elder, magician, poet activist looking at him, and then when you look out the window, you see Sister Souljah, Public Enemy, and then a poster we did during, when Black Lives Matter came out, we produced these posters that said Black Power Matters, and we sent them all over the country to different sister cultural centers and I see them pop up somewhere sometimes and people’s zooms when they’re home all over the country. It’s really amazing and it just really shows when you have a bunch of artists and poets and radical imagination, people sitting around, you know, what kind of things come out of it. [00:08:31] Aubrey: I had one of those Black Power Matters posters in my kitchen window when I lived in Chinatown before I worked here, or visited here actually. I don’t even know how I acquired it, but it just ended up in my house somehow.  [00:08:45] Elena: That’s perfect. I remember when we did, I mean we still do, Malcolm X Jazz Festival and it was a young Chicana student who put the Jazz Festival poster up and she was like, her parents were like, why is Malcolm X? What has that got to do with anything? And she was able to just tell the whole story about Malcolm believing that people, communities of color coming together  is a good thing. It’s a powerful thing. And it was amazing how the festival and the youth and the posters can start those kind of conversations.  [00:09:15] Aubrey: Malcolm X has his famous quote that says “Culture is an indispensable weapon in the freedom struggle.” And Elena, we think a lot about Malcolm X and his message here at Eastside about culture, but also about the importance of art. Can we speak more about the importance of art in our activism?  [00:09:35] Elena: Well, that was some of the things we were touching on around radical imagination and the power of the arts. But where I am going again, is around this power of the art spaces, like the power of spaces like this, and to be sure that it’s not just a community center, it’s a cultural center, which means we invested in sound good, sound good lighting, sprung floors. You know, just like the dignity and respect that the artists and our audiences have, and that those things are expensive but critical. So I feel like that’s, it’s like to advocate for this type of space where, again, all those groups that we listed off that have come in here and there’s countless more. They needed a space to reach constituencies, you know, and how important that is. It’s like back in the civil rights organizing the Black church was that kind of space, very important space where those kind of things came together. People still go to church and there’s still churches, but there’s a space for cultural centers and to have that type of space where artists and activists can come together and be more powerful together.  [00:10:50] Aubrey: I think art is a really powerful way of reaching people. [00:10:54] Elena: You know, we’re looking at this just because I, being in the development end, we put together a proposal for the Environmental Protection Agency before Donald (Trump) took it over. We were writing about how important popular education is, so working with an environmental justice organization who has tons of data about how impacted communities like East Oakland and West Oakland are suffering from all of this, lots of science. But what can we, as an arts group, how can we produce a popular education around those things? And you know, how can we say some of those same messages in murals and zines, in short films, in theater productions, you know, but kind of embracing that concept of popular education. So we’re, you know, trying to counter some of the disinformation that’s being put out there too with some real facts, but in a way that, you know, folks can grasp onto and, and get.  [00:11:53] Aubrey: We recently had a LAIR production called Sky Watchers, and it was a beautiful musical opera from people living in the Tenderloin, and it was very personal. You were able to hear about people’s experiences with poverty, homelessness, and addiction in a way that was very powerful. How they were able to express what they were going through and what they’ve lost, what they’ve won, everything that has happened in their lives in a very moving way. So I think art, it’s, it’s also a way for people to tell their stories and we need to be hearing those stories. We don’t need to be hearing, I think what a lot of Hollywood is kind of throwing out, which is very white, Eurocentric beauty standards and a lot of other things that doesn’t reflect our neighborhood and doesn’t reflect our community. So yeah, art is a good way for us to not only tell our stories, but to get the word out there, what we want to see changed.  So our last point that we wanna talk about today is the importance of Black and Asian solidarity in Oakland. How has that been a history in Eastside, Suzanne?  [00:13:09] Susanne: I feel like Eastside is all about Third World solidarity from the very beginning. And Yuri Kochiyama is one of our mentors through Greg Morozumi and she was all about that. So I feel like everything we do brings together Black, Asian and brown folks. [00:13:27] Aubrey: Black and Asian solidarity is especially important here at Eastside Arts Alliance. It is a part of our history. We have our bookstore called Bandung Books for a very specific reason, to give some history there. So the Bandung Conference happened in 1955 in Indonesia, and it was the first large-scale meeting of Asian and African countries. Most of which were newly independent from colonialism. They aimed to promote Afro-Asian cooperation and rejection of colonialism and imperialism in all nations. And it really set the stage for revolutionary solidarity between colonized and oppressed people, letting way for many Third Worlds movements internationally and within the United States.  [00:14:14] Eastside had an exhibition called Bandung to the Bay: Black and Asian Solidarity at Oakland Asian Cultural Center the past two years in 2022 and 2023 for their Lunar New Year and Black History Month celebrations. It highlighted the significance of that conference and also brought to light what was happening in the United States from the 1960s to present time that were creating and building solidarity between Black and Asian communities. The exhibition highlighted a number of pins, posters, and newspapers from the Black Liberation Movement and Asian American movement, as well as the broader Third World movement. The Black Panthers were important points of inspiration in Oakland, in the Bay Area in getting Asian and Pacific Islanders in the diaspora, and in their homelands organized.  [00:15:07] We had the adoption of the Black Panthers 10-point program to help shape revolutionary demands and principles for people’s own communities like the Red Guard in San Francisco’s Chinatown, IWK in New York’s Chinatown and even the Polynesian Panthers in New Zealand. There were so many different organizations that came out of the Black Panther party right here in Oakland. And we honor that by having so many different 10-point programs up in our theater too. We have the Brown Berets, Red Guard Party, Black Panthers, of course, the American Indian Movement as well. So we’re always thinking about that kind of organizing and movement building that has been tied here for many decades now.  [00:15:53] Elena: I heard that the term Third World came from the Bandung conference. [00:15:58] Aubrey: Yes, I believe that’s true.  [00:16:01] Elena: I wanted to say particularly right now, the need for specifically Black Asian solidarity is just, there’s so much misinformation around China coming up now, especially as China takes on a role of a superpower in the world. And it’s really up to us to provide some background, some other information, some truth telling, so folks don’t become susceptible to that kind of misinformation. And whatever happens when it comes from up high and we hate China, it reflects in Chinatown. And that’s the kind of stereotyping that because we have been committed to Third World solidarity and truth telling for so long, that that’s where we can step in and really, you know, make a difference, we hope. I think the main point is that we need to really listen to each other, know what folks are going through, know that we have more in common than we have separating us, especially in impacted Black, brown, Asian communities in Oakland. We have a lot to do.  [00:17:07] Aubrey: To keep in contact with Eastside Arts Alliance, you can find us at our website: eastside arts alliance.org, and our Instagrams at Eastside Cultural and at Bandung Books to stay connected with our bookstore and CArP, our archive, please come down to Eastside Arts Alliance and check out our many events coming up in the new year. We are always looking for donations and volunteers and just to meet new friends and family.  [00:17:36] Susanne: And with that, we’re gonna go out with Jon Jang’s “The Pledge of Black Asian Alliance,” produced in 2018.  [00:18:29] Emma: This was a round table discussion at the Eastside Arts Alliance Cultural Center with staff and guests: Elena, Suzanne and Aubrey.  Let’s Talk Audio series is one of OACC’S Open Ears for Change projects and as part of the Stop the Hate Initiative with funds provided by the California Department of Social Services in consultation with the commission of Asian and Pacific Islander American Affairs to administer $110 million allocated over three years to community organizations. These organizations provide direct services to victims of hate and their families and offer prevention and intervention services to tackle hate in our communities. This episode is a production of the Oakland Asian Cultural Center with engineering, editing, and sound design by Thick Skin Media.  [00:19:18] A special thanks to Jon Jang for permission to use his original music. And thank you for listening.  [00:19:32] Music: Life is not what you alone make it. Life is the input of everyone who touched your life and every experience that entered it. We are all part of one another. Don’t become too narrow, live fully, meet all kinds of people. You’ll learn something from everyone. Follow what you feel in your heart. OACC Podcast [00:00:00] Emma: My name is Emma Grover, and I am the program and communications coordinator at the Oakland Asian Cultural Center, known also as OACC. Today we are sharing the eighth episode of our Let’s Talk audio series. Let’s talk as part of OACC’s Open Ears for Change Initiative, which was established in 2020. With this series, our goals are to address anti-blackness in the APIA communities, discuss the effects of colorism and racism in a safe space, and highlight black and Asian solidarity and community efforts specifically in the Oakland Chinatown area.   [00:00:43] Today’s guests are Elena Serrano and Suzanne Takahara, co-founders of Eastside Arts Alliance. Welcome Elena and Suzanne, thank you so much for joining today’s episode. And so just to kick things off, wanna hear about how was Eastside Arts Alliance started?   [00:01:01] Susanne: Well, it was really Greg Morozumi who had a longstanding vision of creating a cultural center in East Oakland, raised in Oakland, an organizer in the Bay Area, LA, and then in New York City where he met Yuri Kochiyama, who became a lifelong mentor.   [00:01:17] Greg was planning with one of Yuri’s daughters, Ichi Kochiyama to move her family to Oakland and help him open a cultural center here. I met Greg in the early nineties and got to know him during the January, 1993 “No Justice, No Peace” show at Pro Arts in Oakland. The first Bay Graffiti exhibition in the gallery. Greg organized what became a massive anti-police brutality graffiti installation created by the TDDK crew. Graffiti images and messages covered the walls and ceiling complete with police barricades. It was a response to the Rodney King protests. The power of street art busted indoors and blew apart the gallery with political messaging. After that, Greg recruited Mike Dream, Spy, and other TDK writers to help teach the free art classes for youth that Taller Sin Fronteras was running at the time.   [00:02:11] There were four artist groups that came together to start Eastside. Taller Sin Fronteras was an ad hoc group of printmakers and visual artists activists based in the East Bay. Their roots came out of the free community printmaking, actually poster making workshops that artists like Malaquias Montoya and David Bradford organized in Oakland in the early 70s and 80s.   [00:02:34] The Black Dot Collective of poets, writers, musicians, and visual artists started a popup version of the Black Dot Cafe. Marcel Diallo and Leticia Utafalo were instrumental and leaders of this project. 10 12 were young digital artists and activists led by Favianna Rodriguez and Jesus Barraza in Oakland. TDK is an Oakland based graffiti crew that includes Dream, Spie, Krash, Mute, Done Amend, Pak and many others evolving over time and still holding it down.   [00:03:07] Elena: That is a good history there. And I just wanted to say that me coming in and meeting Greg and knowing all those groups and coming into this particular neighborhood, the San Antonio district of Oakland, the third world aspect of who we all were and what communities we were all representing and being in this geographic location where those communities were all residing. So this neighborhood, San Antonio and East Oakland is very third world, Black, Asian, Latinx, indigenous, and it’s one of those neighborhoods, like many neighborhoods of color that has been disinvested in for years. But rich, super rich in culture.   [00:03:50] So the idea of a cultural center was…let’s draw on where our strengths are and all of those groups, TDKT, Taller Sin Fronters, Black artists, 10 – 12, these were all artists who were also very engaged in what was going on in the neighborhoods. So artists, organizers, activists, and how to use the arts as a way to lift up those stories tell them in different ways. Find some inspiration, ways to get out, ways to build solidarity between the groups, looking at our common struggles, our common victories, and building that strength in numbers.   [00:04:27] Emma: Thank you so much for sharing. Elena and Suzanne, what a rich and beautiful history for Eastside Arts Alliance.   [00:04:34] Were there any specific political and or artistic movements happening at that time that were integral to Eastside’s start?   [00:04:41] Elena: You know, one of the movements that we took inspiration from, and this was not happening when Eastside got started, but for real was the Black Panther Party. So much so that the Panthers 10-point program was something that Greg xeroxed and made posters and put ’em up on the wall, showing how the 10-point program for the Panthers influenced that of the Young Lords and the Brown Berets and I Wor Kuen (IWK).   [00:05:07] So once again, it was that Third world solidarity. Looking at these different groups that were working towards similar things, it still hangs these four posters still hang in our cultural, in our theater space to show that we were all working on those same things. So even though we came in at the tail end of those movements, when we started Eastside, it was very much our inspiration and what we strove to still address; all of those points are still relevant right now.   [00:05:36] Susanne: So that was a time of Fight The Power, Kaos One and Public Enemy setting. The tone for public art murals, graphics, posters. So that was kind of the context for which art was being made and protests happened.   [00:05:54] Elena: There was a lot that needed to be done and still needs to be done. You know what? What the other thing we were coming on the tail end of and still having massive repercussions was crack. And crack came into East Oakland really hard, devastated generations, communities, everything, you know, so the arts were a way for some folks to still feel power and feel strong and feel like they have agency in the world, especially hip hop and, spray can, and being out there and having a voice and having a say, it was really important, especially in neighborhoods where things had just been so messed up for so long.   [00:06:31] Emma: I would love to know also what were the community needs Eastside was created to address, you know, in this environment where there’s so many community needs, what was Eastside really honing in on at this time?   [00:06:41] Elena: It’s interesting telling our story because we end up having to tell so many other stories before us, so things like the, Black Arts movement and the Chicano Arts Movement. Examples of artists like Amiri Baraka, Malaguias Montoya, Sonya Sanchez. Artists who had committed themselves to the struggles of their people and linking those two works. So we always wanted to have that. So the young people that we would have come into the studio and wanna be rappers, you know, it’s like, what is your responsibility?   [00:07:15] You have a microphone, you amplify. What are some of the things you’re saying? So it was on us. To provide that education and that backstory and where they came from and the footsteps we felt like they were in and that they needed to keep moving it forward. So a big part of the cultural center in the space are the archives and all of that information and history and context.   [00:07:37] Susanne: And we started the Malcolm X Jazz Arts Festival for that same reason coming out of the Bandung Conference. And then the Tri Continental, all of this is solidarity between people’s movements.   [00:07:51] Emma: You’ve already talked about this a little bit, the role of the arts in Eastside’s foundation and the work that you’re doing, and I’d love to hear also maybe how the role of the arts continues to be important in the work that you’re doing today as a cultural center.   [00:08:04] And so my next question to pose to you both is what is the role of the arts at Eastside?   [00:08:10] Elena: So a couple different things. One, I feel like, and I said a little bit of this before, but the arts can transmit messages so much more powerfully than other mediums. So if you see something acted out in a theater production or a song or a painting, you get that information transmitted in a different way.   [00:08:30] Then also this idea of the artists being able to tap into imagination and produce images and visions and dreams of the future. This kind of imagination I just recently read or heard because folks aren’t reading anymore or hardly reading that they’re losing their imagination. What happens when you cannot even imagine a way out of things?   [00:08:54] And then lastly, I just wanted to quote something that Favianna Rodriguez, one of our founders always says “cultural shift precedes political shift.” So if you’re trying to shift things politically on any kind of policy, you know how much money goes to support the police or any of these issues. It’s the cultural shift that needs to happen first. And that’s where the cultural workers, the artists come in.   [00:09:22] Susanne: And another role of Eastside in supporting the arts to do just that is honoring the artists, providing a space where they can have affordable rehearsal space or space to create, or a place to come safely and just discuss things that’s what we hope and have created for the Eastside Cultural Center and now the bookstore and the gallery. A place for them to see themselves and it’s all um, LGBTA, BIPOC artists that we serve and honor in our cultural center. To that end, we, in the last, I don’t know, 8, 9 years, we’ve worked with Jose Navarrete and Debbie Kajiyama of Naka Dance Theater to produce live arts and resistance, which gives a stage to emerging and experienced performance artists, mostly dancers, but also poets, writers, theater and actors and musicians.   [00:10:17] Emma: The last question I have for you both today is what is happening in the world that continues to call us to action as artists?   [00:10:27] Elena: Everything, everything is happening, you know, and I know things have always been happening, but it seems really particularly crazy right now on global issues to domestic issues. For a long time, Eastside was um, really focusing in on police stuff and immigration stuff because it was a way to bring Black and brown communities together because they were the same kind of police state force, different ways.   [00:10:54] Now we have it so many different ways, you know, and strategies need to be developed. Radical imagination needs to be deployed. Everyone needs to be on hand. A big part of our success and our strength is organizations that are not artistic organizations but are organizing around particular issues globally, locally come into our space and the artists get that information. The community gets that information. It’s shared information, and it gives us all a way, hopefully, to navigate our way out of it.   [00:11:29] Susanne: The Cultural Center provides a venue for political education for our communities and our artists on Palestine, Haiti, Sudan, immigrant rights, prison abolition, police abolition, sex trafficking, and houselessness among other things.   [00:11:46] Elena: I wanted to say too, a big part of what’s going on is this idea of public disinvestment. So housing, no such thing as public housing, hardly anymore. Healthcare, education, we’re trying to say access to cultural centers. We’re calling that the cultural infrastructure of neighborhoods. All of that must be continued to be supported and we can’t have everything be privatized and run by corporations. So that idea of these are essential things in a neighborhood, schools, libraries, cultural spaces, and you know, and to make sure cultural spaces gets on those lists.   [00:12:26] Emma: I hear you. And you know, I think every category you brought up, actually just now I can think of one headline or one piece of news recently that is really showing how critically these are being challenged, these basic rights and needs of the community. And so thank you again for the work that you’re doing and keeping people informed as well. I think sometimes with all the news, both globally and, and in our more local communities in the Bay Area or in Oakland. It can be so hard to know what actions to take, what tools are available. But again, that’s the importance of having space for this type of education, for this type of activism. And so I am so grateful that Eastside exists and is continuing to serve our community in this way.   What is Eastside Arts Alliance up to today? Are there any ways we can support your collective, your organization, what’s coming up?   [00:13:18] Elena: Well, this is our 25th anniversary. So the thing that got us really started by demonstrating to the community what a cultural center was, was the Malcolm X Jazz Arts Festival, and that this year will be our 25th anniversary festival happening on May 17th.   [00:13:34] It’s always free. It’s in San Antonio Park. It’s an amazing day of organizing and art and music, multi-generational. It’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful day. Folks can find out. We have stuff going on every week. Every week at the cultural center on our website through our socials. Our website is Eastside Arts alliance.org, and all the socials are there and there’s a lot of information from our archives that you can look up there. There’s just just great information on our website, and we also send out a newsletter.   [00:14:07] Emma: Thank you both so much for sharing, and I love you bringing this idea, but I hear a lot of arts and activism organizations using this term radical imagination and how it’s so needed for bringing forth the future that we want for ourselves and our future generations.   [00:14:24] And so I just think that’s so beautiful that Eastside creates that space, cultivates a space where that radical imagination can take place through the arts, but also through community connections. Thank you so much Elena and Suzanne for joining us today.   [00:14:40] Susanne: Thank you for having us.   [00:15:32] Emma: Let’s Talk Audio series is one of OACC’S Open Ears for Change projects and is part of the Stop the Hate Initiative with funds provided by the California Department of Social Services. In consultation with the commission of Asian and Pacific Islander American Affairs to administer $110 million allocated over three years to community organizations. These organizations provide direct services to victims of hate and their families, and offer prevention and intervention services to tackle hate in our communities.   This episode is a production of the Oakland Asian Cultural Center with engineering, editing, and sound design by Thick Skin Media. A special thanks to Jon Jang for permission to use his original music, and thank you for listening.   [00:16:34] Music: Life is not what you alone make it. Life is the input of everyone who touched your life and every experience that entered it. We are all part of one another. Don’t become too narrow. Live fully, meet all kinds of people. You’ll learn something from everyone. Follow what you feel in your heart. The post APEX Express – August 14, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On tonight’s edition of Obbligato on APEX Express, which focuses on AAPI artists, musicians, and composers in the classical music world, host Isabel Li is joined by LA based performer and composer Richard An, who plays and creates new avant-garde music, usually with the ensemble House on Fire, and his music has been performed by the LA Phil and the Calder Quartet to name a few. Join us in our conversation, exploring the possibilities of avant-garde music, raising questions regarding Asian identities in the classical music world, and Richard’s insights on art making during a time when Trump’s cuts to the NEA are affecting artists and institutions nationwide. Featured Music: Sonatrinas: https://richardan.bandcamp.com/album/sonatrinas i got the electroshock blues: https://rasprecords.bandcamp.com/album/i-got-the-electroshock-blues   RICHARD AN (b.1995) is a performer and composer, born and raised in Los Angeles. Richard plays new music – usually with House on Fire – co-founded the tiny backpack new music series, and has performed with Monday Evening Concerts’ Echoi Ensemble, Piano Spheres, The Industry and on Bang on a Can’s LOUD Weekend. Richard plays piano and percussion, and has been known to sing, conduct, and teach. Richard’s music has been performed by the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, Calder Quartet, HOCKET, C3LA, and more. His music has been released on CMNTX Records. Richard has a BM in Composition from USC and an MFA from CalArts. He is on faculty at the Pasadena Waldorf School, Glendale Community College and Harvard-Westlake. He plays taiko and tabla, and makes YouTube videos. Learn more about Richard’s work on his website: https://richardanmusic.com/ Richard’s social media: https://www.instagram.com/richardanmusic/ If you are in LA and want hear Richard’s work, he’s playing with House on Fire at the Sierra Madre Playhouse on August 17! https://www.sierramadreplayhouse.org/event/richardan2025   Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] APEX Express. Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the APEX Express. 00:00:46 Isabel Li Good evening and welcome back to a new episode of Apex Express on KPFA, 94.1 FM. We are bringing you an Asian and Asian American view from the Bay and around the world. I’m your host, Isabel Li, and tonight is a new edition of Obbligato, which explores AAPI identities and classical music. Tonight I’m joined by LA based performer and composer Richard An, who plays and creates new avant-garde music, usually with the ensemble House on Fire, and his music has been performed by the LA Phil and the Calder Quartet to name a few. Join us in our conversation, exploring the possibilities of avant-garde music, raising questions regarding Asian identities in the classical music world, and Richard’s insights on art making during a time when Trump’s cuts to the NEA are affecting artists and institutions nationwide. 00:01:41 Isabel Li Welcome to the show. Welcome to APEX Express, Richard. My first question for you is how do you identify and what communities would you say that you’re a part of? 00:01:50 Richard An My name is Richard An I use he/him pronouns and I’m a second generation Korean American. My parents are both Korean. My dad came from Busan, which is a large city in South Korea, and my mom was born in Seoul and then moved to South America and then made her way up to Los Angeles where they met. And as for identity, like, I think Korean American would be the most accurate one. This is and I think an ever evolving part of first of all my identity and the way that it intersects with my practice and also I think that’s the case with many Asian American artists, I mean artists from immigrant families, you know, the the matter of your identity, especially if you feel more distanced from it for one reason or another, is like an unsolved question for everyone like there is no one answer. That works for people and that’s a thing that me people like myself I think will be exploring for our entire lives. When I introduce myself to people, I say that I’m a classical musician. And at the very core of it, that is true. That’s not a lie. And I am, you know, a part of the classical music community in Los Angeles. But as time goes on, I have noticed and realized. That I tend to align myself more with like the avant-garde and experimental contemporary music communities of Los Angeles, which has certainly an overlap with the classical community, both in practice and historically, but yeah, I I would say those are the sort of two biggest ones, classical musicians and experimental avant-garde, contemporary musicians, whatever label you want to use for that. 00:03:47 Isabel Li Yeah. Some of our listeners might not know what avant-garde music entails. Can you — how would you describe avant-garde music to someone who might not be as familiar with this particular movement? 00:03:57 Richard An Yeah. So avant-garde music, a sort of flippant and joking way to to talk about it is ugly music or music. You know, my dad, for example, wouldn’t like, but I think. It’s music that either interfaces with elements or confronts facets or issues in music that aren’t typical of other kinds of music. The music that you might hear that is labeled of on guard might be noisy or dissonant or uncomfortable, or any kind of, you know, adjectives that are synonyms for noisy or ugly, but I have come to love that kind of music, you know 1. Because of the the kind of questions that they might ask about our perceptions of music and two, because I guess one way to put it is that to be a classical musician, you need to be in a practice room for many hours a day for many years and go to what is unfortunately a college, which is usually very expensive and I guess for lack of a better term, paywalled for like you need to have the kind of resources that allow you to attend a four year undergrad and then a two year masters and then a three-year doctorate. But avant-garde music, contemporary music, experimental music doesn’t necessitate that kind of thing. Often those musicians do have a background that gives them some amount of, you know, virtuosity or facility in an instrument. But like some of the best experimental musicians. Alive and some of the best ones that I know have no, like extensive training in a particular instrument and some may not have a degree in music at all. And that’s one thing that I in like that separates it from classical music is that. 00:05:44 Richard An Classical music can be, unfortunately a little bit exclusionary. I don’t think by any one specific design, but the fact that you need so many hours and very specific instructions from a mentor that necessitate that kind of relationship. But experimental music, I think does a little bit better job of diversifying or making it feel more equitable. 00:06:12 Isabel Li That’s a great point, actually. One of my questions following up with that was what do you think is possible with this genre, which you kind of mentioned earlier with perhaps how this genre makes classical music a little bit more equitable for those who are interested in this field. In your experience, composing, what do you think makes the genre special, and how do you go about it? 00:06:35 Richard An One thing that I’ve noticed about being involved in the sort of contemporary experimental avant-garde music sphere is that it makes me a better listener, and I think other people who attend these concerts will agree. Like for example a large part of this kind of music is drone or repetition or, you know, like long spans of unchanging sound. And if the the sound that is being produced at face value is not changing, well then what do you notice about it? What do you grab on to and one of the most, I think, gratifying experiences is listening deeper and realizing that, ohh, even though you know for example this piano playing two notes for 30 minutes might not like the instructions will say to do the same thing for 30 minutes, but your experience as a human being will certainly change over those 30 minutes, even if the the notes are not like you will notice the slight fluctuations in the way that someone is playing, you will notice the beating patterns in the pitches on an instrument that may not be perfectly in tune, you will note other ambient sounds, you will note like you will notice so much more about the world when you are confronted with the kind of music that you know. You can say it forces you to listen to these sounds but also invites you to listen to these things. And I think that’s really, really special. That’s not to say that that can’t happen with other kinds of music. Or even with classical music. Surely you know there are many, many ways to listen to everything. But I’ve noticed this within myself. When I listen to long, repetitive drone based music that it really opens my ears and makes me a more active participant as a listener. 00:08:30 Isabel Li It’s a great point actually. Part of my work– because I studied music, history and theory in college– was how music can engage various listeners to participate. Have you composed anything that perhaps engages the listener in this more of a participatory setting? 00:08:47 Richard An Yeah. So I guess in order the some of the stuff that I’ve done to engage the audience, I guess both literally, and maybe more figuratively is, I wrote a piece last year for the Dog Star festival, which is a a contemporary and experimental music festival that is actually happening right now, at the time of this recording. It’s a multi week long festival that focuses on music of this type that was founded by people in the sort of CalArts music world. But I wrote a piece for that last year for three melodicas, which are these basically toy instruments that look like keyboards, but you blow into them and you blowing air through these makes the sound happen. It’s basically like if you cross a harmonica and a piano together. But I I wrote a piece for three of these, playing essentially the same notes. And because these instruments are pretty cheap, and they’re often considered toys or, you know, instruments for children, they’re not tuned to the exact way that, like a piano or a vibraphone or an expensive instrument might be. But I wanted to use that for my advantage. For example, if I play an F# on one melodica the same F# on another melodica will not be exactly the same and playing those two pitches together will produce what’s known as a a beat or beat frequency. Which is, you know, a complicated, you know, mathematic physics thing, but basically 2 notes that are really, really close, but not quite together will create a kind of third rhythm because the the pitches are so close. Like, for example, if if I play an A at 4:40 and another A at 441, you will notice that difference of 1 Hertz inside of your ears. And that’s a really cool phenomenon that happens explicitly because you were there listening to the piece. They don’t happen necessarily, you know, like in, in recorded formats like, it’s a very difficult thing to capture unless you are in the room with these instruments. And the fact that we had this audience of, let’s say, 40 people meant that all forty of these people were experiencing these beat frequencies and another really cool factor of this is depending on where you are located in the room. With the way that the beats will sound in your ears are different and purely by the fact of acoustics like a wave bouncing off of the wall over on your left, will feel really different if you are closer or further from that wall. So not only do the audiences ears themselves, you know, invite these this this participation, but the pure physicality of each listener means that they will have a very slightly different experience of what the piece is, and again like this will happen in any concert. If you’re at a classical show, if you’re at a rock show if, if you’re further from the stage, if you’re further to the left or right, you will get a slightly different position in the stereo field that the musicians are playing in, but pieces like what I wrote and many others that exist emphasize this kind of like acoustic phenomena. That is really, really fascinating to listen to. 00:12:23 Isabel Li That’s fascinating. And to get a sense of Richard’s work, we’ll be hearing coming up next. The short excerpt from his album Sonatrinas. This is the duo excerpt performed by Wells Leng, Katie Aikam, Kevin Good and composer Richard An himself. [COMP MUSIC: Sonatrinas (Excerpt: Duo)] 00:17:38 Richard An And so the back story for this piece is this was written for one of my recitals at CalArts. I was planning on playing this piece by Michael Gordon called Sonatra, which is a really, really beautiful and difficult piece for solo piano that I gave myself as an assignment, which I was not able to do with the amount of time. And, you know, like I just didn’t give myself enough time to do this thing, so I still had this program of several pieces written with the idea of having this Michael Gordon Sonatra in the middle, but now that that sort of middle part was gone, there was a bunch of pieces about a piece that didn’t exist. So in order to fill that hole, I wrote this piece called Sonatrinas which is a cheeky nod to the Michael Gordon Sonatra, but also to the fact that each part of this is kind of a diminutive Sonata form. Everything has a sort of ABA– here’s some idea. Here’s a different idea, and now we go back to that first idea. Every single part of this has a little bit of that in it. 00:18:51 Isabel Li Yeah, that’s fascinating. Even the name itself reminds me of Sonata form in classical music, where it’s kind of like an ABA section. As you sort of talked about earlier. And it’s really cool that you’re adapting this in a more avant-garde context. This is a reminder you’re listening to Apex Express. Today we are interviewing composer and musician Richard An. 00:19:12 Isabel Li I think the general question that I have next is can you tell me a bit about what drew you to music and how you got your start in music, how you got introduced to it and what things have inspired you over the years? 00:19:24 Richard An Yeah. So a real quick sort of, I guess, history of my involvement with music is that I started piano lessons when I was pretty young, either three or four years old. I continued that until I was 12 or 13. I decided I really wanted to become a musician. I started taking composition lessons with this composer, AJ McCaffrey, who is really responsible for a lot of what I know and my successes, if you can call it that. He got me into a lot of the music that I am into now and set the foundation for what I would study and what I would write he was one of the instructors for this program called the LA Phil Composer Fellowship program, which back when I was a participant from 2011 to 2013, was a program hosted by the Los Angeles Philharmonic that took 4 high school age students every two years. And you know, they they taught us, you know, everything. How a young composer needs to know how instruments work, how to write a score, how to talk to musicians, how to do everything that a that a composer needs to learn how to do and at the end of this program, after the two years the young composers write a piece for the at the LA Philharmonic. So I was extremely lucky that by the age of 17 I was able to write a piece for orchestra and get that played and not just any orchestra, with the Los Angeles Philharmonic, you know, undisputedly one of the best orchestras in the world. Right. And then after that I I went to USC for my undergrad and then went to CalArts for my masters. And then here we are now. And that those are sort of the like, you know if someone writes a biography about me, that’s what we’ll be, you know, involved in the thing. But I really started to develop my love for music in my freshman and sophomore year. In high school I I started to get into more and more modern composers. I started to get into more and more noisy things and a lot of this coincided actually with the passing of my mother. She died when I was 14 and you know that in any human the death of a parent will cause you to reevaluate and rethink aspects of your life. Things that you thought were certainties will not be there anymore. So for me, I stopped taking piano lessons and I sort of went headfirst into composition and which is why my degrees are specifically in composition and not piano. Had my mother’s passing not happened, you know, who knows what I would be doing now? Maybe I’m not a composer at all. Maybe I’m not into avant-garde music at all, but because things happen the way that they did, I suddenly took a quick turn into avant-garde music and my involvement there only grew more and more and more. Until you know where I am today, I’m almost 30 years old, so I’ve been listening to and a participant of this music for maybe 15 years or so and I’m quite happy. 00:22:43 Isabel Li That’s awesome to hear. 00:22:45 Isabel Li And perhaps a testament to Richard one’s very versatile compositional style and avant-garde music coming up next are three pieces from his album i got the electroshock blues. There are five pieces in the album in total, but we will be hearing three of them. The first one called “feeling, scared today,” the second one, “pink pill,” and the fifth one, “la la.” [COMP MUSIC: i got the electroshock blues: 1. “feeling, scared today”, 2. “pink pill”, 3. “la la”.] 00:36:41 Richard An Earlier last year, I released a collection of live recordings under the title of I got the Electroshock Blues. Electroshock Blues is a song by the band Eels I encountered at a pivotal moment in my life. This was right around the time that my mother passed and this record and this song is heavily centered in grief. The main musician in the Eels, Mark Oliver Everett, was dealing with the passing of multiple family members and people who were close to him so it hit me in just the right way at just the right time. And because of that, this song specifically has stayed with me for many, many years. I found myself coming back to the contents of this song as I was composing and all the pieces on this album, of which there are 5 heavily take material from this song, whether that’s words, chords, the melody. I really, you know, take it apart, dissect it and use those as ingredients in the pieces that I have written here and all of these are live recordings except for the first piece which was recorded in my studio. I just sort of overdubbed the parts myself, and there are credits in the liner notes for this album, but I just want to say that. The first piece which is called “feeling, scared today,” was originally written for the Hockett piano duo, which is a duo comprised of Thomas Kotcheff and Sarah Gibson. Sarah Gibson was a really close friend of mine who passed away last year and now this piece which in some way came out of a feeling of grief now has renewed meaning and another facet or aspect of this piece is centered in grief now. Because this was dedicated to Thomas and Sarah. Yeah. So these pieces are all derived from this one song. 00:38:57 Isabel Li That’s a beautiful response. Thank you so much. Kind of following along your background and how you got to where you are. How do you think your identity has informed your work as a composer and musician? And this could be– you can interpret this in any way that you wish. 00:39:11 Richard An Yeah, this is a really interesting question. The question of how my identity interfaces with my music. In my art, particularly because no person’s answer is quite the same, and I don’t necessarily have this figured out either. So for a little bit of I guess for a little bit of context on me, I’m second generation Korean American, but I’ve never been to Korea and I never went to Korean school. My parents never really emphasize that part of my education. You could call it assimilation. You can call it whatever, but I think they valued other aspects of my growth than my explicit tie to Koreanness or, you know my specific identity as a Korean or Korean American, and because of that, I’ve always felt a little bit awkwardly distanced from that part of my identity, which is something that I will never be completely rid of. So in in a world and the field where whiteness is sort of the default part you know, particularly because you know, classical music does come from Europe, you know, for hundreds of years, like all of the development in this particular kind of music did happen in a place where everyone was white. So because of that background of where I come from and where my musical activity comes from, whiteness has been the default and still feels like it is. So me looking the way that I do as, an obvious not white person, as a person of color will always have a little bit of an outsider status to the thing. And with that comes the question of what are you bringing to classical music? What do you bring to the kind of music that you’re creating? Like for example, the most I think the most well known East Asian composers are people like Toru Takemitsu or Tan Dun, people who will interface with their Asianness, in many different ways, but that often involves bringing, for example, a Japanese scale into your classical composition, or bringing a Japanese instrument into your classical composition. Those are, you know, examples of of of pieces by Toru Takemitsu, and other, you know, very successful. Asian American composers now may do similarly. Texu Kim is maybe someone who can also give insight into this, but nothing about me feels explicitly Korean, maybe besides the way that I look. And besides, the way that I grew up a little bit like I’ve never been to Korea. What right does that give me as a Korean, to for example, use a Korean instrument or use a Korean scale? I’ve never studied that music. I’ve never studied that culture. I in in some arguments I would be guilty of cultural appropriation, because I, you know, have not done the work to study and to properly represent. And for example, like Pansori, if I were to use that in any of my music. 00:42:46 Richard An But then the the the difficult question is well, then who does have the right? Does being Korean give me all the license that I need to incorporate aspects of my identity? And if I am not Korean, does that, does that bar my access to that kind of music forever? Another way of looking at this is, I’ve studied North Indian Classical Hindustani music for a while. I’ve played tabla and and studied that music at CalArts and I really, really love playing tabla. It’s it doesn’t make its way into my composition so much, but it is certainly a big part of my musicianship and who I am and, like, but am I barred from using ideas or aspects of that music and culture and my music because simply for the fact that I am not Indian? Many musicians would say no. Of course you’ve done your homework, you’ve done your research. You’re doing due diligence. You’re you’re representing it properly. And many people who study this music will say music cannot go forward if it’s not like the innervated and continued and studied by people like me who are not explicitly South Asian or Indian. That’s an example of the flip side of this of me using or representing the music from a culture that I am not a part of, but again, am I really Korean? I’ve never been there. I wasn’t born there. I speak the language conversationally. But this is an extremely long winded way of saying that I feel a tenuous connection to my Korean this my Korean American identity that hasn’t been solved, that isn’t solved and probably will never be completely solved. But I think that’s exciting. I think that’s an evolving aspect of my music and will continue to be that way as long as I continue to be involved in music and as as long as I continue to write. 00:45:05 Isabel Li Yeah, absolutely. That’s a wonderful response. Actually. I was, as I was studying different types of world music and learning how people kind of borrow from different cultures. There is this always, this kind of question like ohh, like which types of musical elements from which cultures can I incorporate and obviously the aspects of personal identity definitely play into that a little bit. And part of my senior thesis in college was studying AAPI artists in classical music, and specifically that there are a lot of Asian-identifying musicians in the classical music world. But as you kind of mentioned earlier, I think classical music is very much still like grounded in whiteness and has this kind of air of elitism to it just because of its roots. How do you think this kind of identity intersects with the classical music world? And forgive me if you’ve already kind of talked about it before, but it’s an interesting juxtaposition between like, for example, musicians who identify as AAPI or Asian in this kind of genre that is very– it’s very associated with whiteness. Could you kind of talk about the dynamics of how these two aspects of like culture kind of interplay with one another? 00:46:26 Richard An Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there are ways that I personally feel like I intersect with classical music with reference to my identity, and that also plays with the sort of cultural expectations, like there are stereotypes of Asian musicians, of Asian classical musicians. But there are not necessarily the same the same kind of stereotypes with white classical musicians. A very dominant like stereotype that you’ll run into is the young Asian prodigy who practices 10 hours a day and may therefore be labeled as mechanical or unfeeling or, you know, are involved in in this a lot. So much so to the fact to the to the point where to excel an Asian American classical musician or as an Asian classical musician, in general, seems to always carry that stereotype. Like you know, Seong-Jin Cho’s success as a pianist may not necessarily be attributed to his musicianship or his skill as a pianist. Because he is an Asian person, an Asian guy. Like how much of his success is because of the perceived tiger mom-ness that he might have existed under? How much of it is attributed to the same type of stereotypes that are labeled like that that label the five year old pianist on YouTube that that is clearly better than I am? Like some of these stereotypes help and some of these don’t, but the I think it’s undeniable that they exist in a way that doesn’t in a way that doesn’t carry for white people in the classical music sphere. And I think part of that is that classical music is still rooted in its Eurological identity. I think I’m using that correctly. That’s an idea from George Lewis. Eurological versus Afrological. The context that I’m using Eurological right now is specifically in reference to George Lewis, who is a composer, trombonist, and musicologist who, I think coined the two terms to differentiate the roots of different styles of music, and you know, I haven’t read enough to confidently say, but classical music is Eurological by example and like jazz would be Afrological by an example and the contexts in which they develop and exist and grew up are fundamentally different, which is what makes them different from each other. And again like this needs a little bit more research on my part. 00:49:23 Richard An Yeah, and because the classical music is so rooted in this thing, I don’t believe that the stereotypes that exist for Asian classical musicians exist for white people. And I think that is something that will naturally dissipate with time, like after another 100 years of Asians, and, you know, people of color in, you know, every country in the world, with their continued involvement and innova otypes will disappear like this. You know, it may require certain concerted efforts from certain people, but I do believe that after a while these things will not exist. They’ll sort of equalize right in the same way. That the divisions that we make between a Russian pianist and a French pianist and a German pianist, though you know people still do study those things like those aren’t really dividing lines quite as strong as an Asian composer or an Indian composer might be. 00:50:27 Isabel Li Thank you for that perspective. I think it’s, I think these are conversations that people don’t kind of bring up as much in the classical music world and it’s great that, you know, we’re kind of thinking about these and probably possibly like opening some conversations up to our listeners hopefully. And so my next kind of pivot here is as you know with our current administration, Trump has canceled millions of dollars in National Endowment of the Arts grants, and it’s been affecting arts organizations all over the nation. And I was kind of wondering, have you been affected by these cuts to arts programs and what kinds of advice would give upcoming musicians or composers in this era? 00:51:07 Richard An Yeah, that’s a yeah, that’s a big thing. And like, you know, changing day by day, right. So the Trump administration’s effects on my life as a musician is simultaneously huge and also not really that much. So in one way these grant cuts have not affected my personal musical life because I haven’t ever received a government grant for any of my arts making. So in one way like my life is the same, but in many, many, many other ways it has changed. Like I am involved with and I work with concert series and organizations and nonprofits that do rely on NEA funding and other government arts based funding. And if they have less money to fund their next season, that means certain projects have to be cut. That means certain musicians have to be paid less. That means certain programs have to change, especially if these funding cuts are aimed towards DEI or quote and quote, woke programming like that is, you know this that will by design disproportionately affect people of color in this field, which already you know, like is in a Eurocentric urological tradition like this is already something that people of color don’t have a head start in if the funding cuts are aimed at certain types of programming that will disadvantage already disadvantaged groups of people, well then I don’t know, that’s even–we’re starting even later than other people might be, and you know, like, if a musicians, if a person’s reaction to this is despair, I think that’s reasonable. I think that is an absolutely, like that’s an appropriate reaction to what is fundamentally an attack on your voice as an artist. But I I have for as long as I can, you know, I have always worked under the impression that I will have to do the thing myself, and that’s in the piece of advice that I give for a lot of people. You shouldn’t necessarily wait for this ensemble to come pick you to play or or to to, you know, commission you to write a piece if you want to write the piece, you should do it and figure out how to put it on yourself. If you want to perform you know music by a certain composer, you should do it and then figure out how to do it yourself. That certainly comes from a place of privilege, like I can do this because I have enough work as a musician to be able to pay for the the passion projects it comes from a place of privilege, because I live in Los Angeles and the resources and musicians and other people who I would like to collaborate with live here, so you know, completely acknowledging and understanding that I I do believe that it’s better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. I think if you’re a young musician and are feeling some despair about these funding cuts and you know the many, many, many other transgressions against humanity by this current administration. 00:54:38 Richard An I recommend you just go out and do it yourself. You find your people, you find your community, you pull favors, you work long nights and you do it and the reward will firstly be the good you’re putting out into the world and then the the art you’re making. But also this will be paid in kind by the community you’re building, the musicians you’re working with. And the the connections you make like you know I I have, I am currently conducting this interview from a studio space that I am renting out in Pasadena that I have built over the last two years that I do all of my rehearsals and my performances in, and that I, you know, host rehearsals and performances for other people, and this cannot happen and could not have happened without the goodwill and help and contribution from other people. When I say go out and do it yourself, I’m not saying that you as a human being are alone. I’m saying you don’t need to wait for institutional approval or permission to go out and do these things. Get your friends and do them themselves. And my optimistic belief is that the support and the work will follow. 00:55:53 Isabel Li Richard, thank you so much for sharing your perspectives and your voice on this show today. And thank you to our many listeners of KPFA on tonight’s episode of Obbligato on Apex Express. Which focuses on the AAPI community of the classical music world. There were some inspirational words on arts and arts making by Richard An musician and composer based in Los Angeles. 00:56:18 Isabel Li Please check our website kpfa.org to find out more about Richard An and his work as well as the state of the arts during this period of funding cuts. 00:56:29 Isabel Li We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world, your voices and your art are important. 00:56:41 Isabel Li APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Have a great evening. The post APEX Express – 8.7.25 – Obbligato with Richard An appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 31, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.   Important Resources: Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram | Learn about the Disappearances of Bhutanese American refugees: Website | Toolkit Hmong Innovating Politics: Website | Instagram Lavender Phoenix: Website | Instagram Minjoona Music: Instagram   Transcript: Cheryl (Host): Good evening. You’re tuned in to Apex Express. I’m your host, Cheryl, and tonight we’re diving into the vibrant summer programming happening across the AACRE network. That’s the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality Network. AACRE is made up of 11 Asian American social justice organizations working together to build collective power and create lasting movements .  Throughout tonight’s show, we’ll be spotlighting a few of these groups [00:01:00] and the incredible work they’re leading this summer. First up, we’re joined by Pratik from Asian refugees United Pratik. Thank you so much for being here. Do you mind introducing yourself and to kick things off in the spirit of tonight’s show, maybe share what’s something that’s been bringing you joy this summer? Pratik (ARU): Hello, namaste everyone. My name is Pratik Chhetri. He, him. I’m the program manager at ARU, Asian Refugees United in Pennsylvania. I’m originally from Nepal. I grew up in Nepal. I am an immigrant, came to the for college long time ago. And I’ve been working in social justice, health justice field for over 15 years now. Initially it was mostly around advocacy policy relating to access to medicines, issues, especially in lower and middle income countries, and the past six, seven. More than seven [00:02:00] years. I also started an organization, a nonprofit organization in Nepal, that works at the intersection of social, economic and climate justice. And with ARU, I got introduced to ARU back in 2020. So by that time I had some skills that I felt I could bring to the community. Even though I’m not from Bhutanese refugee community, I speak the language, I understand the culture to a certain extent. So I felt with the linguistic skill I could be of some help. I think right around that time COVID happened, everything and end of 2021 is when I reconnected with Robin and started talking about possibilities. For about two years, I was part of the CAMP for Emerging Leaders, the leadership program ARU has, and [00:03:00] starting last year, early this year formally, I am a staff, for ARU. I’m in charge of programs under wellness, education, and civic engagement largely but depending on time and resources, I become available for other programs as well. It’s a joy working with ARU. I was just telling Cheryl earlier that it doesn’t feel like work ‘ cause I enjoy it, working with people, getting to work on impactful programs, and being a part of an organization that has so much potential, so much responsibility, but also trying to find new ways to become, useful for the community. That’s very exciting. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): That’s great. I’m glad that your work is what’s bringing you joy this summer. That’s so special. And before we get into some of that impactful programming that you’ve been running this summer, could you [00:04:00] tell us a little bit about, ARU, Asian Refugees United  Pratik (ARU): Sure. ARU started back in 2016 in California and back then all of the programs used to be in California. The community that ARU serves since then, and even to this day are Nepali speaking, Bhutanese refugee community and Vietnamese community, Korean and other Pan-Asian community. After the pandemic, there has been a lot of secondary migration of the Bhutanese folks from across the United States to two major locations. One being central PA around Harrisburg area and Pennsylvania, and the second one around Columbus, Ohio, and other major cities in Ohio. The secondary migration mostly to Pennsylvania triggered a, shifting of ARU programs, to Pennsylvania as well in addition to [00:05:00] California. So at this point in 2025, the Pennsylvania side of ARU caters to the Nepali speaking Bhutanese folks. And the California side of ARU works with Vietnamese, Korean, and other Asian communities. I work with the Pennsylvania, ARU, and here we have four different pillars around health and wellness, education, art and storytelling. And the fourth one is civic engagement, and that is the newest one. I can talk about programs under each of the pillars but for summer the programs that is bringing me joy, not only for me, but also ARU’s staffs is this longitudinal five month long leadership program called Camp for Emerging Leaders, where we recruit Nepali speaking folks from all across United States, and they go through virtual sessions every other [00:06:00] week on, history to the story of displacement, intergenerational trauma. How it started, how it used to be back in Bhutan, how it used to be in the refugee camps in Nepal, and now how it is in the US and Canada, wherever they are. So end of summer, end of July, early August is when all of those cohort members, the youth leaders will come physically to Harrisburg and we’ll spend a few days here connecting with each other, building that trust, but also working together to build projects for the community, addressing community challenges that’s happening. And for that I think five or six of the ARU staff from California are also coming. We have guest speakers. I think one of them is coming from all the way from Australia. It’s fun. Largely I think [00:07:00] I’m looking forward to meeting with all of these youth leaders who have so much potential to do, so much good, not only for Bhutanese community, Nepali speaking, south Asian community, but also, their potential goes beyond that, yeah.  Cheryl (Host): It is powerful to hear how ARU’s work has evolved and now spans across the nation, and also how Camp for Emerging Leaders is creating space for Nepali speaking Bhutanese youth to reflect their community’s history, build deep connections, and grow as leaders. You mentioned that during the summer youth leaders gather in Harrisburg to create community projects. Could you share more about what kinds of projects they’re working on and what kind of issues they’re hoping to address? Pratik (ARU): For education, one of the main ones that we just concluded is, so we started high school success program called First Step Forward. And the interesting thing, the exciting thing about this program [00:08:00] is the concept of First Step forward from one of the Camp for Emerging Leaders cohort from two years ago. And similarly so that’s how most of ARU programs have been. The ARU Youth Center, the ARU Office, that concept also started from the camp for emerging leaders. There are a couple other programs ARU does. Youth Wellness Day. That started from the camp as well. For the First Step Forward, what we do is early winter of, I think January or February we accepted a cohort of 10. These were high school juniors and seniors, and largely the purpose of the program is to make sure that they are well equipped for college and for any other professional avenues they end up going even if higher education is not for them. We did a lot of like leadership sessions, public speaking [00:09:00] sessions, like how to write essays, how to apply for different scholarships. We just concluded it literally last Saturday, we went hiking and went to one of the Six Flags amusement parks. But learning from that program, we are scaling it up. We’re taking 20 people next year, and we will do it a year long cohort. So starting from September up until May, June. We’ll integrate college tours, not only for the kids, but also for their family because in Bhutanese community and Nepali speaking folks a lot of the times the parents do not understand how the system works, even with their best intent and best intention. So along with the students, it is very important for us to work with the family, the parents as much as possible to take them through the process, right? On education, we also do a lot of cultural navigation training to [00:10:00] different county level and different governance agencies. Some of the cultural navigation trainings that we did in the past year that I can think of is we did one for the. Panel of judges from Dauphin County, which is where Harrisburg is. We did similar thing for different school districts in Dauphin and Cumberland County, different nearby counties for juvenile probation unit, child and youth services. And while we do that, as an organization, it gave us a better sense of where the gaps are, especially for parents to run into difficulties. ’cause a lot of times, for example, if a kid is sent home with a sheet of paper, even when it’s bilingual, because their movement happened from Nepal to Bhutan, such a long time ago, a lot of the folks in the community speak the language but do not understand how to read or write the [00:11:00] language. So there are double language barrier, right? When a kid is called into a meeting or a disciplinary meeting, the parents a lot of times don’t even look at the sheet of paper or don’t know where to show up or how to show up or what to expect. Based on those things we’re using that knowledge and experience to design further programs in the future. That’s just for education. With civic engagement, for example, this 2024 cycle was the first election for our community members to vote in their lifetime. Back in Bhutan they didn’t have that opportunity and then they spent decades in refugee camps, and it took most of them some time to get the green cards and five years after Green card to secure their citizenship. So we saw a lot of even elderly folks show up to voting. That was their first time that they were voting. And when that happens, it’s not [00:12:00] just generic voter education. It’s teaching the community how to register, where to register, where to show up at the precincts. A lot of precincts we were seeing, 30 to 40% of the folks show up to the wrong precincts. So there’s a lot of need, but also in 2024 we saw, unfortunately, a lot of folks fall victim to misinformation and disinformation. So there’s that need to do something about that part as well in the future. One of the things we started doing under civic engagement work is not just teach folks where to register, how to register on voter education, but also preparing some of the community members to run for office.  Two or three weeks ago, mid-June, we did our first round of run for office training. We partner up with another organization called Lead PA. And even for the folks who showed up, all of us [00:13:00] are politically inclined, educated to a certain extent, and a lot of the things that were shared in that training, it was mostly new to us, especially around local government. Like what are the positions that they are and how so many important positions, people run unopposed and what kind of ramifications that might have for our daily lives. Right. Starting 2026 election cycle, we’re hoping some of our trainees run for office as well, starting from school board to all the way, wherever they want to. And there are wellness focused events, youth wellness Day that I talked about, around mental health is one of the great needs for the community. One piece of data might be very important to mention, based on CDCs 20 12 data, there was a report out, the research was conducted in 2012, and the report came out in 2014, basically what it said [00:14:00] was, Bhutanese folks in the US have the highest of suicide in the whole nation, and that’s something that has not received a lot of attention or resources because generally those numbers get mixed up with generic Asian data and the numbers get diluted. Right. So one of the things, what, as an organization, what we are trying to do is bring awareness to that number. And the other thing is like, it’s been over 10 years since that study happened and there has not been a follow-up study. What we are seeing is previously how mental health and it’s ramifications how it was affecting the community, it was mostly about 10 years ago, mostly affecting older folks. Now we are seeing a lot of younger folks commit suicide or suicidal attempts. So there is a lot of work in that respect as [00:15:00] well. These are also some of the very crucial topics to work on. But as an organization, we are taking baby steps toward being able to efficiently address the community needs. I missed some of them, but overall, our organizational goal is to empower the community in one way or the other. And one of the tools that we use is focusing on youths because youths in the community, similar to other immigrant communities, our youths are mostly bilingual, bicultural, and many times they’re the translators and system navigators for their whole family. And in many cases their extended family as well. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Wow. There are so many layers to the work that you all do. From developing leaders to run for office, to supporting mental health, to helping folks navigate voting and helping folks access higher education or career pathways.[00:16:00]  That’s such a wide scope, and I imagine it takes a lot to hold all of that. How do you all manage to balance so much, especially with a small team, is that right?  Pratik (ARU): Yes. Technically we only have one full-time staff. Most are part-time, but ranging from. 10% to 80%. Largely we rely on the community members, volunteers, and we pay the volunteers when we can. And other times, I think it speaks to how much time and effort and how genuinely, folks like Robin, who is the co ED of ARU and Parsu who is the office manager, and other folks in Harrisburg, connected with different community leaders, folks of different subgroups over the years. So. When ARU moved to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania post pandemic, it took them a while to get the hang of the community, the growing community. Back then it used to [00:17:00] be 10, 20,000 max in central PA and now our estimation is like 70, 80,000 in central PA. It took them a while to create space of trust, that ARU are people that they can come for when they run into problems. And even when we don’t have a lot of resources, people show up. People volunteer. People volunteer their time, their spaces for meetings and events. Yeah. And that’s how we’ve been running it. I feel like we do five or 10 x amount of work with the resources that we have, but that’s largely because of the perception the community has about Robin, about Parsu, about other individuals, and about the organization.  Cheryl (Host): That’s so amazing. ARU clearly has such deep community roots, not just through the incredible work that of course Robin, [00:18:00] Parsu and so many others you have named have done to build lasting relationships that now sustain the work in the organization, but also I think it’s also evident in the examples you’ve shared through Camp for Emerging Leaders, how you all really listen to youth and learn from their experiences. And you all shape programs that respond directly to the needs that you’re seeing. And in that same spirit of care and commitment that is reflected in ARU’s amazing staff and volunteers. I’m curious, are there any moments or memories from camp for emerging leaders that stand out to you? I imagine there must be so many.  Pratik (ARU): Yeah. Many stories. I started attending and facilitating the sessions for the camp I from 2022 cohort and maybe even 23 cohort. I think this is the third one that I’m doing. I’ll talk about Kamana. [00:19:00] Kamana joined the 23 cohort and at that time she was still in high school. But you know, she was bubbly, full of energy and she was one of the pretty active members of the cohort and eventually after the cohort, she ended up joining ARU as initially, I think as an intern, and now she is the lead of the education program. She will be a sophomore or rising junior, starting this fall. But now she’ll be running the education program, First Step Forward. Primarily it was internally us staff, we see the growth in them with experience. But also I think one of the things that ARU does is we create a sort of non-hierarchical structure within our office space in the sense that anyone can [00:20:00] design a program or any idea, and they do not feel intimidated to speaking up. I think because of that, people like Kamana, I can talk about other folks like Nawal. Them growing within ARU space shows not just with experience, but also I think the kind of open and inclusive and non hierarchical space that we create they feel comfortable enough in leading. A lot of times when we have , X, y, and Z needs to be done in the group chat, people just volunteer. Even when they don’t get paid, we see our staff, our volunteer base just show up time and time again. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Wow. ARU is such a special container. You’ve created this beautiful space where people can grow and then also have agency to shape that container in whatever way that they want. That is so special. How can listeners support your work this [00:21:00] summer? Whether that’s showing up or donating or volunteering or spreading the word.  Pratik (ARU): One of the things is for the listeners, I feel like not a lot of folks know about Bhutanese community much. So yes, they speak Nepali. They sometimes they identify as Nepali because it’s just easy. , Bhutanese folks normally identify as either Bhutanese or Nepali or American or any combination of those three identities. A lot of folks do not know, including folks from Nepal about the atrocity, the trauma that the community went through had to go through the forced persecution out of Bhutan and then living under very limited means while in the refugee camps in Nepal and even the number of challenges the community still [00:22:00] faces. I talked a little bit about mental health needs. There’s. There are needs around, health seeking behavior and similar to other immigrant communities as well, but also, on education. Because of the historical division around caste and class and other demographic details, certain folks in the community are geared towards success versus others aren’t. And we see that. We see the pattern quite distinct by their indigeneity, by their caste, by their last names. In our community you can tell what their caste is, what their ethnic background is with their last names. So I would invite the audience to learn a little bit more about this community and if you have that space and resources [00:23:00] to be, if you’re a researcher, if you want to do some research studies, if you want to bring some programs. If you have scholarship ideas, if you want to create any scholarship for the kids in the community, or if you have means, and if you can donate, either or. It doesn’t have to be just, financial resources. It can be sometimes being available as mentor to some of the kids to show them these are the possibilities. To summarize, learn more about the community if you don’t know already including some of the new atrocities, the community’s facing right now with ICE detention and deportation, even when the community was brought in to this country after years and years of approval through the process. And if you have resources and means help with knowledge sharing, being available or with [00:24:00] financial means either or. I just wanted to mention that I work with ARU and I work with the Bhutanese community, but like I said, I’m not from the Bhutan community. I grew up in Nepal. I speak the language, I understand the culture to a certain extent, but I definitely cannot speak for the experience of going and living as a refugee. So,, if you have any question, if you want to learn more about that, Cheryl and I, we are happy to put you in touch with folks with incredible stories, inspiring stories of resilience in the community. Cheryl (Host): Thank you so much. All of the links, whether to learn more, donate or get involved, as well as information about the disappearances impacting the Bhutanese American community will be included in our show notes. A huge thank you to Pratik from Asian Refugees United for joining us tonight. We’re deeply grateful for the work you do and the love you carry for our [00:25:00] communities. To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. We’re going to take a quick music break and when we come back we’ll hear more about the summer programming happening across the AACRE network with folks from Lavender Phoenix, and Hmong innovating politics. So don’t go anywhere. Next up, you’re listening to a track called “Juniper” by Minjoona, a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright. This track features Ari Statler on bass, josh Qiyan on drums, and Ryan Fu producing. Juniper is the lead single from Minjoona’s newest release, the Juniper EP, a five track p roject rooted in indie rock, 60 throwback vibes, and lyric forward storytelling. You can follow Minjoona on Instagram at @minjoonamusic or find them on Spotify to keep up with upcoming releases. We’ll drop the links in our show notes. Enjoy the track and we’ll be right back. [00:26:00] [00:27:00] [00:28:00] [00:29:00] [00:30:00]  And we’re back!!. You’re listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. That was “Juniper” by Minjoona.  Huge thanks to Jackson Wright and the whole crew behind that track [00:31:00] Before the break, we were live with Pratik from Asian Refugees United, talking about the powerful summer programming, supporting the Nepalese speaking Bhutanese community in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Now I’m joined by from Blair Phoenix. From Lavender Phoenix, who’s here to share about her experiences as a summer organizer In Lav N’S annual summer in Lav N’s annual summer organizer in Lav N’S annual summer organizing program. Hi Mar. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for being here. Do you mind introducing yourself to our listeners? Okay. Mar, do you mind for our listeners out there who are just tuning in, do you mind introducing yourself? Mar (LavNix): Yes. Thank you, Cheryl. Hi, y’all. My name is Mar Pronouns, [00:32:00] she/siya/any! I come from the lands of the Ibaloi people in the Philippines or “Maharlika”. I am a queer Muslim and yeah, I’m just happy to be here. Cheryl (Host): Yay. We’re so happy to have you here, mar! For those who might not be familiar, Mar is joining us from Lavender Phoenix as part of this year’s summer organizing program. Mar,, could you start by giving our listeners a quick introduction to Lavender Phoenix? And then could you tell us a little bit about the summer organizing program and what it’s all about? Mar (LavNix): Yeah, of course. Cheryl. Let’s start with Lavender Phoenix. Lavender Phoenix is a really awesome nonprofit over here in the Bay Area who focus on trans queer, API. Work basically. I really love Lavender Phoenix because of their unwavering commitment to collective liberation [00:33:00] and the very specific focus and centering around trans queer API leadership because our leadership is often underrepresented and because there’s so many intersections there, we need to have trans queer API leadership to be able to move the work. And so really fond of lavender Phoenix’s ethos and mission values. This year for the summer 2025, I’m part of their summer organizer program, which is a cohort of organizers both emerging, established and wanting to learn, and we learn a lot of transformative interpersonal organizing skills, but also building our more technical skill sets alongside with that. So we’re actually three weeks from graduation [00:34:00] nooooooooo!. Anyways, yeah, just really happy to be in this cohort. I’m feeling really aligned in that I am here and it is transforming me in the way I had intentions for when I applied for it. Cheryl (Host): Wow. It sounds like this was a really impactful program for you. I wanna know what kinds of projects are you all working on?  Mar (LavNix): Yeah, so it’s really beautiful because it’s not just like a single project the cohort works on, it’s kind of a myriad of things. We have two folks who are doing projects with other organizations, and then we have the rest of the folks working on two projects within Lavender Phoenix’s programming. And so for my group, my very awesome group, we are doing the River of Life Project, and the River of Life Project is a five week long cohort where we practice storytelling in a very vulnerable and honest way, and this is for the [00:35:00] purpose to really witness one another and to cultivate our storytelling skills because our stories and narratives is so important. There’s whole states and governments trying to take that away from us, and so our project is to guide and facilitate this project and meet with members across rank. It’s super cool seeing the different facets of lavender Phoenix come together and be down, to be in the act of vulnerability and honesty and that is their praxis for collective liberation. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Yeah. Yeah. That’s so well said. And it’s so important that we have these spaces to practice that vulnerability because we are so often punished for being who we are. Right. So, mm-hmm. These programs are so crucial as you have uplifted for us. I am so curious to learn more about this River of Life project, but [00:36:00] also before we even get to that, I wanna zoom out a little bit and focus on your growth and who are you now as you get closer three weeks from graduation?  Mar (LavNix): Ooh, that is such a beautiful question, Cheryl. Yeah. I’ve been really reflecting on how this program transformed me this summer and to bring us back to when I first applied. I first applied sometime in March, I believe. I remember ’cause it was around Ramadan. I was at a point in my life where I felt stagnant in my organizing journey. I would attend all these workshops, I would keep reading, but there was a disconnect in how my mind wanted to move next. So here we are in 2025, I was accepted into the program. I was like, yay, my people. And you know, [00:37:00] my expectations was met. In fact, it was exceeded. Very exceeded because I didn’t know these things that i’m learning now. I didn’t know how much I needed them until I learned them. In my time with Lavender Phoenix, as I’m reflecting to this point, graduation being three weeks out, I realized that before joining this cohort, my heart and my spirit was in a really bad place, and I think a lot of people could resonate. There’s genocides, ethnic cleansings, and just terrible things happening all over the world, and there’s like a dichotomy of people who are trying so hard and then there’s a dichotomy of people who are unaffected by it. And so my spirit and my heart was so broken down seems really dramatic, but it wasn’t being rejuvenated for sure. And so, being in this space and being in a [00:38:00] container that’s just honesty and vulnerability and it’s all rooted in each other’s liberation really replenish that cup. The teachings and the knowledge and the wisdom that I’m getting, it’s helping me add more to my North Star, which I’m really thankful of because I didn’t know this is what I needed in March. Cheryl (Host): That is so beautiful. So much of what’s going on right now by the systems that be, the powers that be, it’s meant to isolate us and to make us feel exactly what you said. Capitalism isolates us and keeps us in that place because that’s how it benefits . So Lavender Phoenix is summer organizing program, what I’m hearing from you is this revolutionary space that is counter to that. It’s filled with hope and dreaming for a better world. So how is that being informed in River of Life, in the storytelling leadership development that you are developing within Lavender Phoenix’s membership?  Mar (LavNix): Oh, yes. I’m [00:39:00] understanding the responsibility on how I move in this space. And so before the cohort of the River of Life project presents, it’s actually gonna be me and another facilitator going to share our stories. And so we’re also in the act of being vulnerable and honest and really wanting the others to witness us as we will witness them. We’ve removed kind of that superiority in that space. When I think of this, it brings me back to Freire’s idea of an engaged pedagogy, but not necessarily like an educator and a student, but like removing hierarchies, which I think is really, a value that’s rooted in, or lavender Phoenix is rooted in that value. There’s no hierarchy, but there is ranks and we all see each other as equals. It’s really beautiful to be able to see that and then know how I move in this [00:40:00] space to prepare our cohort. I hope that my storytelling, I can only hope, I do not know how it’s gonna be received inshallah it’s received super well. But I really do hope that they see how vulnerable I also get and how I’m doing this so that I could build deeper relationships with these people as I continue my journey with Lavender, Phoenix and to them as well. I hope these values, if not already present in our people, this project helps them cultivate that even further.  Cheryl (Host): I wanna ask what is something you want to share with our listeners who were in a similar space as you who felt lost and that they wanted something to grow in. What advice would you give?  Mar (LavNix): This is a really beautiful question [00:41:00] and So many things flooded my brain as you were asking this question, but i’m feeling more pulled and called to share this one thing . As I’m going through the summer organizer program, I really realized the importance of tending to myself so that I could show up for others. I have to be able to know how to advocate for my needs and what I need so that I can be in spaces with other people. It’s so important that I know how to acknowledge my shame or whatever pain points I’m experiencing and let that not be a hindrance to the work, but integrate it in a way that I will tend to it, and by tending to it, I can continue doing the work. And I know it’s really [00:42:00] hard to prioritize yourself when it feels like you should prioritize everything else in the world right now, but I am really learning that that’s what I needed to do. When I say prioritize myself, I’m not saying oh, I need to go do this and I need to go drink all my water. Yes, also care for our physical bodies and our mental bodies, but also taking time to know who I am as a person and what I could offer to the movement, and knowing how to communicate to others in the movement so that I could show up as a better organizer. And so the final words that I will have to share is I hope everyone who’s hearing this shows the love that they have for other people to themselves [00:43:00] too.  Cheryl (Host): That was so beautiful. What you just shared right now about tending to yourself that’s part of the work too. And that’s so counterintuitive, I feel. This project that you’re leading, the river of life where the focus is so much on your story and honoring who you are, I think that is the true essence of what it means to be trans and queer. Showing up with your whole self and embracing that. And in turn, by doing that, you are holding everybody else too, that very practice. To find out more about Lavender Phoenix Mar, how can our listeners plug into Lavender Phoenix’s work?  Mar (LavNix): Follow us on Instagram or check out Lavender, Phoenix website. We post a lot. Sign up for the newsletter. Volunteer. We’re really cool. Or just look at the staff and see if anybody calls you and you wanna hit them up. We’re so awesome. Cheryl (Host): Thank you for joining us on tonight’s show, Mar, and for sharing your experiences on Lavender Phoenix’s [00:44:00] summer organizing program with all of All of the links that Mar mentioned on how to stay in touch with Lavender Phoenix’s work be available in our show notes as per usual. We are so grateful, thank you again, Mar! Next up, we’re joined by Katie from Hmong Innovating Politics. Katie. Welcome, welcome. I’m so happy to have you on our show tonight. Would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners? Katie (HIP): Hi everyone. My name is Katie. I use she her pronouns. My Hmong name is ING and I mainly introduce myself as ING to my community, especially elders because one ING is my given name. Katie is like a self-assigned name. In my work with HIP I’ve been trying to figure out what feels more natural when, but I do catch myself introducing myself to my Hmong community. And yeah, I’m totally cool if folks referring to me as Katie Oring and my ask is just pronouncing my name correctly. Who are my people? Who’s my community? I would say my community is my family. And then the young people that I work [00:45:00] with, the elders in my community, the ones who would like to claim me, my team. I would say Hmong women that I’ve met through some of the work that I do at my volunteer org, and oh my goodness, there’re so many people. My friends, oh my gosh, if my friends are listening to this, my friends are my community, they’re my people. They keep me grounded, alive and fun. My siblings. All of the folks in Fresno and Sacramento that have been a part of the spaces that I’ve shared at HIP and the spaces that we’ve created together.  Cheryl (Host): You are a community leader through and through . For folks who are listening and don’t know, Hmong Innovating Politics is one of the AACRE groups and it has two different hubs basically in Central California, one in Sacramento, and one in Fresno. Katie, do you mind sharing a little bit about HIP and the work that you all do? Katie (HIP): Yeah. So, we are a power building organization and what does that mean, right? One is that we are [00:46:00] a part of empowering and supporting our community to become active change makers in their community. We believe that those who are most impacted by issues should also be the ones that receive resources and training to lead solutions and design, the dreams of their community. A framework that we use is called Belong Believe Become. We want to create space where young people feel their belongingness, know that they are rooted here in their community, and that they have a place. The believing part of our framework is that we want young people to also see themselves and see themselves as leaders. In their community and leadership can mean many forms, right? There’s like passive and active leadership, and we want young people to know that there is enough space in this world for everyone in whichever capacity, they’re choosing to show up in their community. The important piece of believing is that, believing that you also like matter and that your decisions are also impactful. And then become is that. [00:47:00] we share this framework and it’s circular because we notice that some people can come into our space feeling like I know exactly who I’m gonna be. I know exactly what I wanna do, and feel really disconnected from their history and their, and the multiple parts of their identities. belong, believe become is cyclical and it’s wherever you’re at. And in this third piece of becoming it is that our young people know that they are leading the charge and transforming systems. That they are shifting the narratives of our community, that they get to own the narratives of our community, and that they are a part of the Power building our community as well. Cheryl (Host): Yeah, I love that . As we’re talking, I’m noticing that you talk so much about young people and how so much of your work’s framework is centered around young people. Do you mind giving context into that? So much of HIP’s programming is on youth leadership, and so I’m wondering what does that look like programming wise and especially right now in the summer? Katie (HIP): Yeah, so it’s more [00:48:00] recently that HIP has been identifying ourselves as a power building organization. Before we had claimed our work as base building, and this is through our civic engagement work for voter engagement and empowerment, and turning out the vote that, that is like what we, our organization was like centered on. Through that work, what we noticed was that like cycles and seasons after season, it was young people coming back and then they started asking are you all gonna have like consistent programming space for us, or is it just gonna always be around the election cycle? Through our civic engagement work, a framework that we use is the IVE model, integrated voter engagement. And that is that you are relationship building year after year, even outside of the election season. And so then it was how do we be more intentional about centering the people who are coming to us and centering the people who are shifting and challenging and pushing our leadership. And that was to [00:49:00] then move and prioritize the young people in our community. I think it’s been maybe four or five years since this shift where we’ve really prioritized young people and really centered our work around youth justice. So then we had to create these spaces. Civic engagement work had primarily consisted of phone banking and canvassing and through that I think a lot of young people were then getting firsthand experience of this is like what it’s like to be angry about these issue in my community. This is also what it’s like to hold space for other people to go through and process their emotions. And then it was like, how do we train and skill up our young people to not only listen to their community, but be able to strategize and lead and take their ideas and dreams and put ’em into action. At the time folks working in our civic engagement programs were high school youth, college transitional age, young adults who are not in college. And we even had parent [00:50:00] age folks in our programs as well. In figuring out how do we better support our young folks was that a lot of young people were asking for more like designated space for youth that are in high school. The other request was can you all not be college based because not all young adults go to college in our community, yet we still wanted to access the programs. We had to strategize around these pieces. Also at the time when we were running civic engagement program, we were also building up our trans and queer work in the Central Valley and figuring out like what is HIP’s place in this work? So that landed us into three programs. We have a program called Tsev which is TSEV. Um, and that means House in Hmong, but it’s an acronym. It stands for Transforming Systems, empowering Our Village, and the reason why we named our youth program that is in the Hmong community, we refer to our community a lot “lub zos” which means village in English. And so that is why we wanted to name our program with something around the word village and then also [00:51:00] home, belongingness, right? We wanted our program to signify belonging. And so that is what landed us in this program. This program is based at a high school and we train cohorts of youth and the curriculum that we cover in all of our programs are pretty similar, but they are adjusted to be more relevant to the age group and the experiences that we are serving. So we have our high school program. We have our trans and queer young adult program called QHIP, queer Hmong intersectional Pride. And then we also have a young adult program called the Civic Engagement Fellowship, but I feel like we’re gonna be revamping next year, so we might have a new name next year. And that one is, open to all young adults of all gender and sexuality. The projects that is focused in that is what’s coming up on the election. So specific propositions and measures or whatever we are bringing to the ballot. And then with QHIP, it is very focused on intentionally building up leadership in the trans and queer community. [00:52:00] Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): You all tackle power building in so many different intersections, and I think that’s so brilliant. You really tailor these spaces to the needs of your community and you’re always listening to your community. That is honestly such a theme within the AACRE network. Could you tell us how these groups stay active during the summer?  Katie (HIP): Yeah! During the summer, we close off the cohort in June when the school year ends. And so we’re actually in the assessment phase of this program right now. Our seniors throughout the summer go through a one-on-one exit with one of the staff in Fresno or Sacramento. After the senior exit closes out, then we’ll be doing a overall annual assessment with all of the young people that were in the program this year. We’re actually closing both these pieces out next week. We try to make things fun, right? So for the one-on-ones, we’ll all come to the office and we’ll have the one-on-one exit interviews and after that we’ll go get lunch. somewhere cute, somewhere fun. Then with the end of the year evals, after we complete them for everyone, we’ll just hang out. This [00:53:00] year we’re planning to do like a paint by numbers night. And then we always somehow end up karaoking. For QHIP, our trans and queer young adult program we actually partner with Lavender Phoenix and have them attend the leadership exchange program that’s happening right now. We did our own onboarding and then we celebrated the month of pride. And we also celebrated the trans march. Then after that transition into the leadership exchange program at Lavender Phoenix. After that program, I believe our lead members are going to be designing some projects this summer. And then they’ll have the rest of the summer and hours to do their projects, and then we’ll eventually close out with a retreat with them. Cheryl (Host): And for our listeners out there, do you mind giving a quick a preview on what lavender, Phoenix’s leadership exchange program is and how you all work in tandem with each other?  Katie (HIP): Yeah. Okay. I know in the past, we’ve sent our more new to organizing leaders [00:54:00] to the leadership exchange program. This year the intention is that we wanted to send leaders from our community who might already have some organizing experience who have some experience in social justice and movement work. And so, during this I think some of my favorite things from the leadership exchange program is teaching folks how to ask for help. I think a lot of our young adults navigate their lives not knowing who to turn to for help and how to formulate and ask that is clear and supportive of their needs. So that’s something that we really appreciate through the leadership exchange program. And another piece is mutual aid funding. Lavender Phoenix trains up leaders around fundraising support and that’s something I’m really looking forward to our young people gaining. The other piece is ultimately training of trans and queer leaders in our community so that we can continue to sustain this movement and this lifelong work of trans and queer liberation. The leadership exchange program has been able to equip folks with very necessary skills so that they can continue to sustain trans and queer [00:55:00] leadership. I bring in the fundraising piece because, I think a lot of young people that I work with, they’re so scared to ask for resource support, especially money. And I think a lot of it comes with our own family trauma around finances, right? So, I’m excited to see what they debrief about and what they reflect on.  Cheryl (Host): That’s so amazing. It really sounds like all of these programs that you all do are really building up leaders for the long term of our movements. Asking for help is so related to navigating money, trauma and is so key in shaping liberatory futures. For folks out there who wanna get plugged into some of HIP’s programming work, how can we stay in touch with you all? Katie (HIP): Our Instagram is the best spot. And then on our Instagram you can click on the little short link to sign up for our newsletter. We have some volunteer opportunities coming up in the month of August so if folks in the Central Valley wanna support with one of our community engagement [00:56:00] surveys, either to partake in the survey or to support us in doing the outreach and getting the word out so that folks complete the survey. There’s two ways that you can participate with us. Yeah.  Cheryl (Host): Thanks, Katie, and of course all of those links will be available in our show notes. Thanks so much for coming on our show tonight, Katie, and thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We’ll see you next time. [00:57:00] [00:58:00]  The post APEX Express – 7.17.25: Summer Programming in the AACRE Network appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 10, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.     The post APEX Express – 7.3.25 – Haibayo appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight Producer Swati Rayasam showcases a community panel of how discriminatory exclusion policies during times of heightened fears of national security and safety have threatened our communities in the past, and how the activities of the current administration threaten our core constitutional rights, raising the specter of politicization and polarization of citizenship, immigration visas, naturalization rights, and the right to free speech.   Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – “Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us” SHOW TRANSCRIPT Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to APEX Express on KPFA. My name is Swati Rayasam and I’m back as your special producer for this episode. Tonight we have an incredible community panel titled Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison. This panel explores the history of how discriminatory exclusion policies during times of heightened fears of national security and [00:01:00] safety have threatened our communities in the past, and how the activities of the current administration threaten our core constitutional rights, raising the specter of politicization and polarization of citizenship, immigration visas, naturalization rights, and the right to free speech. I’ll pass it on to UC Berkeley Ethnic Studies Professor Mike Chang to kick us off. Mike and Harvey: We’re starting on Berkeley time, right on time at three 10, and I want to introduce Harvey Dong. Harvey Dong: Okay. The sponsors for today’s event include, AADS- Asian American and Diaspora studies program, uc, Berkeley, Asian American Research Center, the Center for Race and Gender Department of Ethnic Studies- all part of uc, Berkeley. Off campus, we have the following community groups. Chinese for Affirmative Action, Asian Law Caucus, [00:02:00] Asian Prisoners Support Committee, and East Wind Books. Okay, so that’s, quite a few in terms of coalition people coming together. My name is Harvey Dong and I’m also a lecturer in the AADS program and part of the ethnic studies department. I can say that I exist here as the result of birthright citizenship won by Ancestor Wong Kim Ark in 1898. Otherwise, I would not be here. We want to welcome everyone here today, for this important panel discussion titled: Deport, Exclude, Revoke, Imprison – Immigration and citizenship rights during crisis. Yes, we are in a deep crisis today. The Chinese characters for crisis is way G in Mandarin or way gay in [00:03:00] Cantonese, which means danger and opportunity. We are in a moment of danger and at the same time in a moment of opportunity. Our communities are under attack from undocumented, documented, and those with citizenship. We see urgency in coming together. In 1898, the US Supreme Court case, US versus Wong Kim Ark held that under the 14th Amendment birthright, citizenship applies to all people born in the United States. Regardless of their race or their parents’ national origin or immigration status. On May 15th this year, the Supreme Court will hear a President Donald Trump’s request to implement an executive order that will end birthright citizenship already before May 15th, [00:04:00] deportations of US citizen children are taking place. Recently, three US citizen children, one 2-year-old with cancer have been deported with their undocumented parents. The numbers of US citizen children are much higher being deported because it’s less covered in the press. Unconstitutional. Yes, definitely. And it’s taking place now. Also today, more than 2.7 million southeast Asian Americans live in the US but at least 16,000 community members have received final orders of deportation, placing their lives and families in limbo. This presents a mental health challenge and extreme economic hardship for individuals and families who do not know whether their next day in the US will be their last. Wong Kim Ark’s [00:05:00] struggle and the lessons of Wong Kim Ark, continue today. His resistance provides us with a grounding for our resistance. So they say deport, exclude, revoke, imprison. We say cease and desist. You can say that every day it just seems like the system’s gone amuk. There’s constant attacks on people of color, on immigrants and so forth. And our only solution, or the most important solution is to resist, legally resist, but also to protest, to demand cease and desist. Today brings together campus and community people. We want you all to be informed because if you’re uninformed , you can’t do anything. Okay? You have to know where things are at. It’s nothing new. What they’re trying to do, in 1882, [00:06:00] during times of economic crisis, they scapegoated Asian Americans. Today there’s economic, political crisis. And the scapegoating continues. They’re not doing anything new. You know, it’s old stuff, but we have to realize that, and we have to look at the past in terms of what was done to fight it and also build new solidarities today. Wong Kim Ark did not take his situation sitting down. He went through, lots of obstacles. He spent three months in Angel Island he was arrested after he won his case because he was constantly being harassed wherever he went. His kids when they came over were also, spotted as being Wong Kim Ark’s, children, and they too had to spend months at Angel Island. So Wong Kim Ark did not take his situation sitting down. We need to learn from him today. Our [00:07:00] next, special guest is Mr. Norman Wong, a good friend of mine. He was active here in the third world Liberation Front strike that led to ethnic studies. He did a lots of work for the development of Asian American studies and we’ve been out in touch for about, what, 40 years? So I’m really happy that he’s able to come back to Berkeley and to talk about yourself, if you wish, maybe during the Q and a, but to talk about , the significance of your great-grandfather’s case. Okay, so Norman Wong, let’s give him a hand. Norman Wong: Hello, my name’s Norman Wong. I’m the great grandson, Wong Kim Ark. Wong Kim Ark was [00:08:00] born in the USA, like my great-grandfather. I, too was born American in the same city, San Francisco, more than 75 years after him. We are both Americans, but unlike him, my citizenship has never been challenged. His willingness to stand up and fight made the difference for his struggles, my humble thanks. Wong Kim Ark however, was challenged more than once. In late 1889 as an American, he traveled to China in July, 1890. He returned to his birth city. He had his papers and had no problems with reentry. In 1895, after a similar trip, he was stopped from disembarking and was placed into custody for five months aboard ship in port. [00:09:00] Citizenship denied, the reason the Chinese exclusion Act 1882. He had to win this case in district court, provide $250 bail and then win again in the United States Supreme Court, March 28th, 1898. Only from these efforts, he was able to claim his citizenship granted by birthright from the 14th Amendment and gain his freedom. That would not be the last challenge to his being American. My mother suffered similar treatment. She like my great-grandfather, was born in America. In 1942, she was forced with her family and thousands of other Japanese Americans to relocation camps an experience unspoken by her family. [00:10:00] I first learned about Japanese American internment from history books. Executive order 9066 was the command. No due process, citizenship’s rights stripped. She was not American enough. Now we have executive order 14160. It is an attack on birthright citizenship. We cannot let this happen. We must stand together. We are a nation of immigrants. What kind of nation are we to be with stateless children? Born to no country. To this, I say no. We as Americans need to embrace each other and [00:11:00] cherish each new life. Born in the USA. Thank you. Harvey Dong: Thank you, Norman. And Annie Lee, will moderate, the following panel, involving campus and community representatives who will be sharing their knowledge and experience. Annie Lee, Esquire is an attorney. She’s also the, managing director of policy for Chinese Affirmative Action, and she’s also, heavily involved in the birthright citizenship issue. Annie Lee: Thank you so much Harvey for that very warm welcome and thank you again to Norman for your remarks. I think it’s incredible that you’re speaking up at this moment, to preserve your ancestors’ legacy because it impacts not just you and him, but all of us [00:12:00] here. So thank you. As Harvey said, my name is Annie Lee and I have this honor of working with this amazing panel of esteemed guest we have today. So I will ask each of them to introduce themselves. And I will start, because I would love to hear your name, pronouns. Title and organization as well as your personal or professional relationship with the US Immigration System. So my name’s Annie. I use she her pronouns. I’m the managing Director of policy at Chinese for Affirmative Action, which is a non-profit based in San Francisco Chinatown. We provide direct services to the monolingual working class Chinese community, and also advocate for policies to benefit all Asian Americans. My relationship with the immigration system is I am the child of two Chinese immigrants who did not speak English. And so I just remember lots of time spent on the phone when I was a kid with INS, and then it became U-S-C-I-S just trying to ask them what happened to [00:13:00] a family member’s application for naturalization, for visas so I was the interpreter for them growing up and even today. I will pass it to Letty. Leti Volpp: Hi everybody. Thank you so much, Annie. Thank you Harvey. Thank you, Norman. That was profoundly moving to hear your remarks and I love the way that you framed our conversation, Harvey. I’m Leti Volpp. I am the Robert d and Leslie k Raven, professor of Law and Access to Justice at the Berkeley Law, school. I’m also the director of the campus wide , center for Race and Gender, which is a legacy of the Third World Liberation Front, and the 1999, student movement, that led to the creation of the center. I work on immigration law and citizenship theory, and I am the daughter, second of four, children of my mother who was an immigrant from China, and my father who was an immigrant [00:14:00] from Germany. So I’ll pass it. Thank you. Ke Lam: Thank you. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Norman. So my name’s Key. I go by he, him pronouns or Nghiep “Ke” Lam, is my full name. I work for an organization called Asian Prison Support Committee. It’s been around for like over two decades now, and it started behind three guys advocating for ethics study, Asian and Pacific Islander history. And then it was starting in San Quent State Prison. All three of them pushed for ethics study, hard and the result is they all was put into solitary confinement. And many years later, after all three got out, was Eddie Zang, Mike Romero and Mike no. And when they got out, Eddie came back and we pushed for ethics study again, and we actually got it started in 2013. And it’s been going on to today. Then the programs is called Roots, restoring our Original True Self. So reconnecting with who we are. And one of Eddie’s main, mottos that really stuck with me. He said, we need to all connect to our chi, right? And I’m like, okay, I understand what chi is, and he said no. He [00:15:00] said, you need to connect to your culture, your history, which result to equal your identity, who you are as a person. So, the more we study about our history and our culture, like, birthright citizen, it empower us to know, who we are today. Right? And also part of that is to how do we take down the veil of shame in our community, the veil of trauma that’s impacting our community as well. We don’t talk about issue that impact us like immigration. So I’m a 1.5 generation. So I was born in Vietnam from Chinese family that migrant from China to Vietnam started business after the fall of Vietnam War. We all got kicked out but more than that, I am directly impacted because I am a stranded deportee, somebody that got their, legal status taken away because of criminal conviction. And as of any moment now, I could actually be taken away. So I live in that, right at that threshold of like uncertainty right now. And the people I work with, which are hundreds of people, are fixing that same uncertainty.[00:16:00] Annie Lee: Thank you, Ke. I’m gonna pass it to our panelists who are joining us virtually, including Bun. Can you start and then we’ll pass it to Chris after. Bun: Hey everybody, thank you for having me. My name is Bun. I’m the co-director of Asian Prison Support Committee. I’m also, 1.5 generation former incarcerated and under, direct impact of immigration. Christopher Lapinig: Hi everyone. My name is Christopher Lapinig, my pronouns are he, him and Sha. I am a senior staff attorney on the Democracy and National Initiatives Team at Asian Law Caucus, which you may know is the country’s first and oldest legal aid in civil rights organization, dedicated to serving, low income immigrant and underserved AAPI communities. In terms of my connection to the immigration system, I am, I also am a beneficiary of a birthright citizenship, and my parents are both immigrants from the Philippines. I was born in New York City. My [00:17:00] extended family spans both in the US and the Philippines. After graduating law school and clerking, my fellowship project was focused on providing litigation and immigration services to, survivors of labor trafficking in the Filipino community. While working at Asian Americans Advancing Justice Los Angeles, I also was engaged in, class action litigation, challenging the first Trump administration’s practices, detaining immigrants in the Vietnamese and Cambodian communities. Annie Lee: Thank you, Chris. Thank you Bun. Let’s start off by talking about birthright citizenship since it’s a big topic these days. On the very, very first day of Trump’s administration, he issued a flurry of executive orders, including one that would alter birthright citizenship. But I wanna take us back to the beginning because why do we have this right? It is a very broad right? If you were born in the United States, you are an American citizen. Where does that come from? So I wanna pose the first question to Letty to talk about the [00:18:00] origins of birthright citizenship., Leti Volpp: Very happy to. So what’s being fought about is a particular clause in the Constitution and the 14th Amendment, which says, all persons born are naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. Okay, so that’s the text. There’s been a very long understanding of what this text means, which says that regardless of the immigration status of one’s parents, all children born here are entitled to birthright citizenship with three narrow exceptions, which I will explain. So the Trump administration executive order, wants to exclude from birthright citizenship, the children of undocumented immigrants, and the children of people who are here on lawful temporary visas. So for example, somebody here on an [00:19:00] F1 student visa, somebody on a H one B worker visa, somebody here is a tourist, right? And basically they’re saying we’ve been getting this clause wrong for over a hundred years. And I will explain to you why I think they’re making this very dubious argument. Essentially when you think about where the 14th amendment came from, in the United States, in the Antebellum era, about 20% of people were enslaved and there were lots of debates about citizenship. Who should be a citizen? Who could be a citizen? And in 1857, the Supreme Court issued a decision in a case called Dread Scott, where they said that no person who was black, whether free or enslaved, could ever be a citizen. The Civil War gets fought, they end slavery. And then the question arose, well, what does this mean for citizenship? Who’s a citizen of the United States? And in 1866, Congress [00:20:00] enacts a law called the Civil Rights Act, which basically gave rights to people that were previously denied and said that everybody born in the United States is a birthright citizen. This gets repeated in the 14th Amendment with the very important interpretation of this clause in Norman’s great-grandfather’s case, the case of Wong Kim Ark. So this came before the Supreme Court in 1898. If you think about the timing of this, the federal government had basically abandoned the reconstruction project, which was the project of trying to newly enfranchised, African Americans in the United States. The Supreme Court had just issued the decision, Plessy versus Ferguson, which basically legitimated the idea that, we can have separate, but equal, as a doctrine of rights. So it was a nation that was newly hostile to the goals of the Reconstruction Congress, and so they had this case come before them, whereas we heard [00:21:00] from Norman, we have his great-grandfather born in San Francisco, Chinatown, traveling back and forth to China. His parents having actually left the United States. And this was basically presented as a test case to the Supreme Court. Where the government tried to argue, similar to what the Trump administration is arguing today, that birthright citizenship, that clause does not guarantee universal birthright citizenship saying that children of immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction thereof, not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States because their parents are also not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. The Supreme Court took over a year to decide the case. They knew that it would be controversial, and the majority of the court said, this provision is clear. It uses universal language. It’s intended to apply to children of all immigrants. One of the things that’s interesting about [00:22:00] what the, well I’ll let Chris actually talk about what the Trump administration, is trying to do, but let me just say that in the Wong Kim Ark decision, the Supreme Court makes very clear there only three narrow exceptions to who is covered by the 14th Amendment. They’re children of diplomats. So for example, if the Ambassador of Germany is in the United States, and, she has a daughter, like her daughter should not become a birthright citizen, right? This is why there’s diplomatic immunity. Why, for example, in New York City, there are millions of dollars apparently owed to the city, in parking tickets by ambassadors who don’t bother to pay them because they’re not actually subject to the jurisdiction in the United States. Okay? Second category, children of Native Americans who are seen as having a sovereign relationship of their own, where it’s like a nation within a nation, kind of dynamic, a country within a country. And there were detailed conversations in the congressional debate about the [00:23:00] 14th Amendment, about both of these categories of people. The third category, were children born to a hostile invading army. Okay? So one argument you may have heard people talk about is oh, I think of undocumented immigrants as an invading army. Okay? If you look at the Wong Kim Ark decision, it is very clear that what was intended, by this category of people were a context where the hostile invading army is actually in control of that jurisdiction, right? So that the United States government is not actually governing that space so that the people living in it don’t have to be obedient, to the United States. They’re obedient to this foreign power. Okay? So the thread between all three of these exceptions is about are you having to be obedient to the laws of the United States? So for example, if you’re an undocumented immigrant, you are subject to being criminally prosecuted if you commit a crime, right? Or [00:24:00] you are potentially subjected to deportation, right? You have to obey the law of the United States, right? You are still subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Okay? But the Trump administration, as we’re about to hear, is making different arguments. Annie Lee: Thank you so much, Leti for that historical context, which I think is so important because, so many different communities of color have contributed to the rights that we have today. And so what Leti is saying here is that birthright citizenship is a direct result of black liberation and fighting for freedom in the Civil War and making sure that they were then recognized as full citizens. And then reinforced, expanded, by Wong Kim Ark. And now we are all beneficiaries and the vast majority of Americans get our citizenship through birth. Okay? That is true for white people, black people. If you’re born here, you get your ci. You don’t have to do anything. You don’t have to go to court. You don’t have to say anything. You are a US citizen. And now as Leti referenced, there’s this fringe legal theory that, thankfully we’ve got lawyers like [00:25:00] Chris who are fighting this. So Chris, you’re on the ALC team, one of many lawsuits against the Trump administration regarding this unlawful executive order. Can you tell us a little bit about the litigation and the arguments, but I actually really want you to focus on what are the harms of this executive order? Sometimes I think particularly if you are a citizen, and I am one, sometimes we take what we have for granted and you don’t even realize what citizenship means or confers. So Chris, can you talk about the harms if this executive order were to go through? Christopher Lapinig: Yeah. As Professor Volpp sort of explained this executive order really is an assault on a fundamental constitutional right that has existed for more than a hundred years at this point, or, well, about 125 years. And if it is allowed to be implemented, the harms would really be devastating and far reach. So first, you know, children born in the us, the [00:26:00] parents without permanent status, as permissible said, would be rendered effectively stateless, in many cases. And these are of course, children, babies who have never known any other home, yet they would be denied the basic rights of citizen. And so the order targets a vast range of families, and not just undocument immigrants, but also those with work visas, student visas, humanitarian productions like TPS, asylum seekers, fleeing persecution, DACA recipients as well. And a lot of these communities have deep ties to Asian American community. To our history, and of course are, essential part, of our social fabric. In practical terms, children born without birthright citizenship would be denied access to healthcare through Medicaid, through denied access to snap nutritional assistance, even basic IDs like social security numbers, passports. And then as they grow older, they’d be barred from voting, serving on juries and even [00:27:00] working. And then later on in life, they might be, if they, are convicted of a crime and make them deportable, they could face deportation to countries that they never stepped, foot off basically. And so this basically is this executive order threatened at risk, creating exactly what the drafters of the 14th Amendment wanted to prevent the creation of a permanent underclass of people in the United States. It’ll just get amplified over time. If you can imagine if there’s one generation of people born without citizenship, there will be a second generation born and a third and fourth, and it’ll just get amplified over time. And so it truly is just, hard to get your mind around exactly what the impact of this EO would be. Annie Lee: Thanks, Chris. And where are we in the litigation right now? Harvey referenced, a hearing at the Supreme Court on May 15th, but, tell us a little bit about the injunction and the arguments on the merits and when that can, when we can expect [00:28:00] that. Christopher Lapinig: Yeah, so there were a number of lawsuits filed immediately after, the administration issued its exec order on January 20th. Asian Law Caucus we filed with the ACLU Immigrant Rights Project. Literally we were the first lawsuit, literally hours after the executive order was issued. By early February, federal judges across the country had issued nationwide preliminary injunctions blocking implementation of the order. Our case is actually not a nationwide injunction. And so there’re basically, I believe three cases that are going up to the Supreme Court. And, the Trump administration appealed to various circuit courts to try to undo these injunctions. But all circuit courts upheld the injunctive relief and and so now the Supreme Court is going to be hearing arguments on May 15th. And so it has not actually ruled on whether or not the executive order is constitutional, but it’s going to. I mean, it remains to be seen exactly what they’re going to decide but may [00:29:00] 15th is the next date is the big date on our calendar. Annie Lee: Yeah. So the Trump administration is arguing that these judges in a particular district, it’s not fair if they get to say that the entire country, is barred from receiving this executive order. Is that procedurally correct. Judges, in order to consider whether to grants an injunction, they have a whole battery of factors that they look at, including one, which is like likelihood of winning on the merits. Because if something is unconstitutional, it’s not really great to say, yeah, you can let this executive order go through. And then like later when the court cases finally worked their way, like a year later, pull back from that. And so that’s, it’s very frustrating to see this argument. And it’s also unfair and would be very messy if the states that had republican Attorneys General who did not litigate, why would you allow the executive order to go forward in those red states and not in these blue state? It really, I would say federalism run terribly amuck. Swati Rayasam: [00:30:00] You are tuned in to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley,. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org. Annie Lee: But anyway, let’s see back off from the actual case because I think what we’re really talking about and what Chris has alluded to is, these cases about birthright citizenship, all the immigration policy is essentially determining who belongs here. Who belongs here. That’s what immigration policy is at its heart. And we see that the right wing is weaponizing that question, who belongs here? And they are going after very vulnerable populations, undocumented people, people who are formerly incarcerated. So Bun if you can talk about how, is the formerly incarcerated community, like targeted immigrants, targeted for deportation? What is going on with this community that I feel like most people might not know about? Thank [00:31:00] you. Bun: Yes. For our folks that are incarcerated and former incarcerated, we are the easiest target for deportation because we are in custody and in California, CDCR colludes with ICE and on the day that we are to be paroled they’re at the door, cuffing us up and taking us to detention. I’m glad to hear Harvey say, this is a time of fear for us and also opportunity. Right now, our whole community, the Southeast Asian community, mainly are very effective with immigration. In the past 25 years, mostly it was the Cambodian community that was being targeted and deported. At this moment, they are targeting, all of the Southeast Asian community, which historically was never deported because of the politics and agreements, of the Vietnamese community. And now the Laos community thats more concerning, that are being targeted for deportation. Trump have opened a new opportunity for us as a community to join [00:32:00] together and understand each other’s story, and understand each other’s fear. Understand where we’re going about immigration. From birthright to crimmagration. A lot of times folks that are under crimmigration are often not spoken about because of our cultural shame, within our own family and also some of our community member felt safe because the political agreements. Now that everybody’s in danger, we could stand together and understand each other’s issue and support each other because now we could see that history has repeated itself. Again, we are the scapegoat. We are here together fighting the same issue in different circumstances, but the same issue. Annie Lee: But let me follow up. What are these, historical agreements that you’re talking about that used to feel like used to at least shield the community that now aren’t in place anymore? Bun: Yeah. After the Clinton administration, uh, passed the IRA [immigration reform act] a lot of Southeast Asian nations were asked to [00:33:00] take their nationals back. Even though we as 1.5 generation, which are the one that’s mostly impacted by this, had never even stepped into the country. Most of us were born in a refugee camp or we’re too young to even remember where they came from. Countries like Cambodian folded right away because they needed the financial aid and whatever, was offering them and immediately a three with a MOU that they will take their citizens since the early two thousands. Vietnam had a stronger agreement, which, they would agree to only take folks that immigrated here after 1995 and anybody before 1995, they would not take, and Laos have just said no until just a few months ago. Laos has said no from when the, uh, the act was passed in 1995, the IRRIRA. Mm-hmm. So the big change we have now is Vietnam had signed a new MOU saying that they will take folks after 1995 [00:34:00] in the first administration and more recently, something that we never thought, happened so fast, was Laos agreeing to take their citizen back. And then the bigger issue about our Laos community is, it’s not just Laos folks. It’s the Hmong folks, the Myan folks, folks, folks that are still in danger of being returned back ’cause in the Vietnam War, they colluded and supported the Americans in the Vietnam War and were exiled out and kicked out, and were hunted down because of that. So, at this moment, our folks are very in fear, especially our loud folks, not knowing what’s gonna happen to ’em. Ke Lam: So for folks that don’t know what IRR means it means, illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act. It actually happened after the Oklahoma bombing, which was caused by a US citizen, a white US citizen. Yeah. But immigration law came out of it. That’s what’s crazy about it. Annie Lee: Can you tell us, how is APSC advocating to protect the community right now because you [00:35:00] are vulnerable? Ke Lam: So we had to censor a lot of our strategies. At first we used to use social media as a platform to show our work and then to support our community. But the government use that as a target to capture our people. So we stopped using social media. So we’ve been doing a lot of on the ground movement, such as trying to get local officials to do resolutions to push Governor Newsom to party more of our community members. The other thing is we hold pardon workshops, so try and get folks to get, either get a pardon or vacate their sentence. So commute their sentence to where it become misdemeanor is not deportable anymore. Support letters for our folks writing support letters to send to the governor and also to city official, to say, Hey, please help pardon our community. I think the other thing we are actually doing is solidarity work with other organizations, African American community as well as Latin communities because we’ve been siloed for so long and we’ve been banned against each other, where people kept saying like, they’ve taken all our job when I grew up. That’s what they told us, right? [00:36:00] But we, reality that’s not even true. It was just a wedge against our community. And then so it became the good versus bad narrative. So our advocacy is trying to change it it’s called re-storying you know, so retelling our story from people that are impacted, not from people, not from the one percenters in our own community. Let’s say like we’re all good, do you, are there’s parts of our community that like that’s the bad people, right? But in reality, it affects us all. And so advocacy work is a lot of different, it comes in a lot of different shapes and forms, but definitely it comes from the community. Annie Lee: Thanks, Ke. You teed me up perfectly because there is such a good versus bad immigrant narrative that takes root and is really hard to fight against. And that’s why this administration is targeting incarcerated and formerly incarcerated folks and another group that, are being targeted as people who are accused of crimes, including Venezuelan immigrants who are allegedly part of a gang. So, Leti how is the government deporting [00:37:00] people by simply accusing them of being a part of a gang? Like how is that even possible? Leti Volpp: Yeah, so one thing to think about is there is this thing called due process, right? It’s guaranteed under the constitution to all persons. It’s not just guaranteed to citizens. What does it mean? Procedural due process means there should be notice, there should be a hearing, there should be an impartial judge. You should have the opportunity to present evidence. You should have the opportunity to cross examinee. You should have the opportunity to provide witnesses. Right? And basically Trump and his advisors are in real time actively trying to completely eviscerate due process for everybody, right? So Trump recently said, I’m doing what I was elected to do, remove criminals from our country. But the courts don’t seem to want me to do that. We cannot give everyone a trial because to do so would take without exaggeration, 200 years. And then Stephen Miller said the judicial process is for Americans. [00:38:00] Immediate deportation is for illegal aliens. Okay. Quote unquote. Right. So I think one thing to notice is, as we’re hearing from all of our speakers are like the boxes, the categories into which people are put. And what’s really disturbing is to witness how once somebody’s put in the box of being quote unquote criminal gang banger terrorists, like the American public seems to be like, oh, okay you can do what you want to this person. There’s a whole history of due process, which exists in the laws which was created. And all of these early cases actually involved Asian immigrants, right? And so first they were saying there’s no due process. And then in a case called Yata versus Fisher, they said actually there is due process in deportation cases, there’s regular immigration court proceedings, which accord with all of these measures of due process. There’s also a procedure called expedited removal, [00:39:00] which Congress invented in the nineties where they wanted to come up with some kind of very quick way to summarily exclude people. It was motivated by a 60 Minutes episode where they showed people coming to Kennedy Airport, who didn’t have any ID or visa or they had what seemed to be fake visas and they were let into the United States. And then they disappeared, right? According to the 60 Minutes episode. So basically Congress invented this procedure of, if you appear in the United States and you have no documents, or you have what an immigration inspector thinks are false documents, they can basically tell you, you can leave without this court hearing. And the only fail safe is what’s called a credible fear screening. Where if you say, I want asylum, I fear persecution, I’m worried I might be tortured, then they’re supposed to have the screening. And if you pass that screening, you get put in regular removal [00:40:00] proceedings. So before the Trump administration took office, these expedited removal proceedings were happening within a hundred miles of the border against people who could not show that they had been in the United States for more than two weeks. In one of his first executive orders. Trump extended this anywhere in the United States against people who cannot show they’ve been in the United States for more than two years. So people are recommending that people who potentially are in this situation to carry documentation, showing they’ve been physically in the United States for over two years. Trump is also using this Alien Enemies Act, which was basically a law Congress passed in 1798. It’s only been used three times in US history it’s a wartime law, right? So it was used in 1812, World War I, and World War II, and there’s supposed to be a declared war between the United States and a foreign nation or government, or [00:41:00] there’s an incursion threatened by a foreign nation or government, and the president makes public proclamation that all natives of this hostile nation, 14 and up shall be liable to be restrained and removed as alien enemies. Okay? So we’re obviously not at war with the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua, right? They have not engaged in some kind of invasion or predatory incursion into the United States, but the Trump administration is claiming that they have and saying things like, oh, they’re secretly a paramilitary wing of the Venezuelan government, even as the Venezuelan government is like cracking down on them. It’s not a quasi sovereign, entity. There’s no diplomatic relationships between Tren de Aragua and any other government. So these are legally and factually baseless arguments. Nonetheless, the administration has been basically taking people from Venezuela on the basis of tattoos. A tattoo of a crown of a [00:42:00] rose, right? Even when experts have said there’s no relationship between what Tren de Aragua does and tattoos, right? And basically just kidnapping people and shipping them to the torture prison in El Salvador. As I’m sure you know of the case of Kimber Abrego Garcia, I’m sure we’ll hear more about this from Christopher. There’s a very small fraction of the persons that have been sent to this prison in El Salvador who actually have any criminal history. And I will say, even if they had a criminal history, nobody should be treated in this manner and sent to this prison, right? I mean, it’s unbelievable that they’ve been sent to this prison allegedly indefinitely. They’re paying $6 million a year to hold people there. And then the United States government is saying, oh, we don’t have any power to facilitate or effectuate their return. And I think there’s a struggle as to what to call this. It’s not just deportation. This is like kidnapping. It’s rendition. And there are people, there’s like a particular person like who’s completely [00:43:00] disappeared. Nobody knows if they’re alive or dead. There are many people in that prison. People don’t know if they’re alive or dead. And I’m sure you’ve heard the stories of people who are gay asylum seekers, right? Who are now in this situation. There are also people that have been sent to Guantanamo, people were sent to Panama, right? And so I think there questions for us to think about like, what is this administration doing? How are they trying to do this in a spectacular fashion to instill fear? As we know as well, Trump had said oh, like I think it would be great when he met with Bukele if you build four more or five more facilities. I wanna house homegrown people in El Salvador, right? So this is all the more importance that we stick together, fight together, don’t, as key was saying, don’t let ourselves be split apart. Like we need a big mass coalition right? Of people working together on this. Annie Lee: So thank you leti and I think you’re absolutely right. These Venezuelans were kidnapped [00:44:00] in the middle of the night. I mean, 2:00 AM 3:00 AM pulled out of bed, forced to sign documents they did not understand because these documents were only available in English and they speak Spanish, put on planes sent to El Salvador, a country they’ve never been to. The government didn’t even have to prove anything. They did not have to prove anything, and they just snatch these people and now they’re disappeared. We do have, for now the rule of law. And so Chris, there are judges saying that, Kimber Abrego Garcia has to be returned. And despite these court orders, the administration is not complying. So where does that leave us, Chris, in terms of rule of law and law in general? Christopher Lapinig: Yeah. So, I’m gonna make a little personal. So I graduated from Yale Law School in 2013, and you might know some of my classmates. One of my classmates is actually now the Vice President of the United States. Oh man. [00:45:00] Bless you. As well as the second lady, Usha Vance. And a classmate of mine, a good friend Sophia Nelson, who’s a trans and queer, was recently on, I believe CNN answering a question about, I believe JD Vice President Vance, was asked about the administration’s sort of refusal to comply with usual orders. Yeah. As we’re talking about here and JD had said something like, well, courts, judges can’t tell the president what he can’t do, and sophia, to their credit, said, you know, I took constitutional law with JD, and, we definitely read Marbury Versus Madison together, and that is the semial sort of Supreme Court case that established that the US Supreme Court is the ultimate decider, arbiter, interpreter, of the US Constitution. And so is basically saying, I know JD knows better. He’s lying essentially, in all of his [00:46:00] communications about, judicial orders and whether or not a presidential administration has to comply , with these orders. So, to get to your question though, it is of course unprecedented. Really. It is essentially, you know, it’s not, if we not already reached. The point of a constitutional crisis. It is a constitutional crisis. I think it’s become clear to many of us that, democracy in the US has operated in large part, and has relied on, on, on the good faith in norms, that people are operating good faith and that presidents will comply when, a federal judge issues an injunction or a decision. It kind of leaves us in an interesting, unprecedented situation. And it means that, lawyers, we will continue to litigate and, go to court, but we can’t, lawyers will not save the country or, immigrants or communities. We need to think extensively and creatively. [00:47:00] About how to ensure, that the rule of law is preserved because, this administration is not, abiding by the longstanding norms of compliance and so we have to think about, protests, advocacy, legislatively. I don’t have the answers necessarily, but we can’t rely on the courts to fix these problems really. Annie Lee: Oof. That was very real, Chris. Thank you. But I will say that when there is resistance, and we’ve seen it from students who are speaking up and advocating for what they believe is right and just including Palestinian Liberation, that there is swift retaliation. And I think that’s partly because they are scared of student speech and movement and organizing. But this is a question to all of you. So if not the courts and if the administration is being incredibly retaliatory, and discriminatory in terms of viewpoint discrimination, in people and what people are saying and they’re scouring our social [00:48:00] media like, Ke warns, like what can everyday people do to fight back? That’s for all of you. So I don’t know who, which of you wants to take it first? Ke Lam: Oh man. I say look at history, right? Even while this new president, I wanna say like, this dude is a convicted felon, right? Don’t be surprised at why we country is in the way it is, because this dude’s a convicted felon, a bad business person, right? And only care about the billionaires, you know? So I’m not surprised how this country’s ending up the way it is ’cause it is all about money. One way that we can stand up is definitely band together, marched on the streets. It’s been effective. You look at the civil right movement, that’s the greatest example. Now you don’t have to look too far. We can actually, when we come together, they can’t fight us all. Right? It is, and this, it’s like you look at even nature in the cell. When things band together, the predators cannot attack everyone. Right? They probably could hit a few of us, but in the [00:49:00] long run, we could change the law. I think another thing is we, we, as the people can march to the courts and push the courts to do the job right, despite what’s going on., We had judges that been arrested for doing the right thing, right? And so, no matter what, we have to stand strong just despite the pressure and just push back. Annie Lee: Thanks, Ke. Chris? Christopher Lapinig: What this administration is doing is you know, straight out of the fascist playbook. They’re working to, as we all know, shock and awe everyone, and make Americans feel powerless. Make them feel like they have no control, make them feel overwhelmed. And so I think first and foremost, take care of yourself , in terms of your health, in terms of your physical health, your mental health. Do what you can to keep yourself safe and healthy and happy. And do the same for your community, for your loved ones, your friends and family. And then once you’ve done that do what you can in terms of your time, treasure, [00:50:00] talent to, to fight back. Everyone has different talents, different levels of time that they can afford. But recognize that this is a marathon and not necessarily a sprint because we need everyone, in this resistance that we can get. Annie Lee: Thank you, Chris. Leti Volpp: There was a New Yorker article called, I think it was How to Be a Dissident which said, before recently many Americans, when you ask them about dissidents, they would think of far off countries. But they interviewed a lot of people who’d been dissidents in authoritarian regimes. And there were two, two things in that article that I’m taking with me among others. One of them said that in surveying like how authoritarian regimes are broken apart, like only 3.5% of the population has to oppose what’s going on. The other thing was that you should find yourself a political home where you can return to frequently. It’s almost like a religious or [00:51:00] spiritual practice where you go and you get refreshed and you’re with like-minded people. And so I see this event, for example as doing that, and that we all need to find and nurture and foster spaces like this. Thank you. Annie Lee: Bun, do you have any parting words? Bun: Yeah. Like Ke said, to fight back, getting together, understanding issues and really uplifting, supporting, urging our own communities, to speak Up. You know, there’s folks that can’t speak out right now because of fear and danger, but there are folks here that can speak out and coming here learning all our situation really give the knowledge and the power to speak out for folks that can’t speak down [unclear] right now. So I appreciate y’all Annie Lee: love that bun. I was gonna say the same thing. I feel like there is a special obligation for those of us who are citizens, citizens cannot be deported. Okay? Citizens have special rights based [00:52:00] on that status. And so there’s a special responsibility on those of us who can speak, and not be afraid of retaliation from this government. I would also urge you all even though it’s bleak at the federal level, we have state governments, we have local governments. You have a university here who is very powerful. And you have seen, we’ve seen that the uni that the administration backs down, sometimes when Harvard hit back, they back down and that means that there is a way to push the administration, but it does require you all putting pressure on your schools, on your local leaders, on your state leaders to fight back. My boss actually, Vin taught me this. You know, you think that politicians, lead, politicians do not lead politicians follow. Politicians follow and you all lead when you go out further, you give them cover to do the right thing. And so the farther you push and the more you speak out against this administration, the more you give them courage to do the right thing. And so you absolutely have to do that. A pardon [00:53:00] is critical. It is critical for people who are formerly incarcerated to avoid the immigration system and deportation. And so do that. Talk to your family, talk to your friends. My parents, despite being immigrants, they’re kinda old school. Okay guys, they’re like, you know, birthright citizenship does seem kind of like a loophole. Why should people like get like citizenship? I’m like, mom, we, I am a birthright citizen. Like, um, And I think for Asian Americans in particular, there is such a rich history of Asian American civil rights activism that we don’t talk about enough, and maybe you do at Berkeley with ethnic studies and professors like Mike Chang. But, this is totally an interracial solidarity movement. We helped bring about Wong Kim Ark and there are beneficiaries of every shade of person. There’s Yik wo, and I think about this all the time, which is another part of the 14th Amendment equal protection. Which black Americans fought for that in San Francisco. [00:54:00] Chinatown made real what? What does equal protection of the laws even mean? And that case was Seminole. You’ve got Lao versus Nichols. Another case coming out of San Francisco. Chinatown about English learner rights, the greatest beneficiary of Lao v Nichols, our Spanish speakers, they’re Spanish speaking children in schools who get access to their education regardless of the language they speak. And so there are so many moments in Asian American history that we should be talking about, that we should educate our parents and our families about, because this is our moment. Now, this is another one of those times I wanna pass it to Mike and Harvey for questions, and I’m so excited to hear about them. Mike and Harvey: Wow, thank you so much. That’s a amazing, panel and thank you for facilitating annie’s wanna give it of a great value in terms of that spiritual home aspect. Norm how does your great grandfather’s , experience in resistance, provide help for us [00:55:00] today? Norman Wong: Well, I think he was willing to do it. It only took one, if no one did it, this, we wouldn’t be having the discussion because most of us would’ve never been here. And we need to come together on our common interests and put aside our differences because we all have differences. And if we tried, to have it our way for everything, we’ll have it no way for us. We really need to, to bond and bind together and become strong as a people. And I don’t mean as a racial or a national group. Mm-hmm. I mean, we’re Americans now. We’re Americans here think of us as joining with all Americans to make this country the way it’s supposed to be. The way [00:56:00] we grew up, the one that we remember, this is not the America I grew up believing in. I’m glad he stood up. I’m proud that he did that. He did that. Him doing that gave me something that I’ve never had before. A validation of my own life. And so yes, I’m proud of him. Wong Kim Ark is for all of us. It’s not for me to own. Yeah. Wow. Really not. Thank you so much. Wong Kim Ark is for all of us. And, and , talking about the good , that we have here and, the optimism that Harvey spoke about, the opportunity, even in a moment of substantial danger. Thank you so much everybody. Mike and Harvey: This was amazing and really appreciate sharing this space with you and, building community and solidarity. Ke Lam: But is there any, can I leave with a chant before we close off? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. So this is a chant that we use on the ground all the time. You guys probably heard it. When I said when we fight, you guys said we [00:57:00] win when we fight. We win when we fight, we win. When we fight, we win up. Swati Rayasam: Thanks so much for tuning into APEX Express. Please check out our website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keene-Lee, Ayame Keene-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Ravi Grover, and me Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support, and have a good [00:58:00] night.   The post APEX Express – 6.26.25-Deport. Exclude. Revoke. Imprison – Wong Kim Ark is for All of Us appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight’s show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children’s book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. Title:  We Are All Connected Show Transcripts Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:01:17] Welcome to Apex Express. Tonight’s show is June 19th. We are all connected. We are talking with Asian and Asian American Children’s book authors. PowerLeeGirls host Miko Lee talks with Chi Thai and Livia Blackburne about the power of storytelling, maternal heritage, generational trauma, and much more. First, we want to start by wishing everyone a happy Juneteenth, Juneteenth commemorates, an end to slavery and the emancipation of Black Americans after the Civil War. In 1865, 2 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, enslaved people in Galveston, Texas finally learned of their freedom. Juneteenth marks the day the last enslaved people learned of their freedom. Though outright slavery became illegal, the systematic oppression of African Americans continues to this day. We see that show up in almost every aspect of American culture, from the high rate of infant mortality to the over punishing of Black children in schools, to police brutality, to incarceration. We must continue to recognize the importance of championing Black lives and lifting up Black voices. We are all connected. June 19th is also an important day in Asian American history. In 1982 in Detroit, Vincent Chin was at a bar celebrating his bachelor party prior to his wedding the next day. Ronald Ebens, a white auto worker, and his stepson Michael Nitz taunted Vincent with racial epithets. They thought he was Japanese and were angry about the Japanese rise in the auto industry. When Vincent left the bar later, the two men attacked and killed Vincent with a baseball bat. He was 27 years old. Ronald Ebens never did time for this murder. Ronald Ebens is 85 years old now. Ebens not only skirted prosecution, he has used bankruptcy and homesteading laws in Nevada to avoid a wrongful death civil suit settlement. Ordered by the court in 1987 to pay $1.5 million to Chin’s family, the Chin estate has received nothing. Lily Chin, Vincent’s mom could have stayed silent about the racist attack on her son. Instead she spoke out. She took a courageous stance to highlight this most painful moment in her life. In doing so, she helped ignite a new generation of Asian American activists working for civil rights and social justice. We find ourselves in a new wave of activism as our communities band together to work against the injustices of the current regime. And what does this have to do with children’s books? It is all connected. We highlight children’s books by Asian and Asian American authors because we want our next generation of children to know and appreciate their own heritage. We want them to proudly represent who they are so that they can work in solidarity with other peoples. Our struggle is interwoven. As Grace Lee Boggs said, “History is a story not only of the past, but of the future.” Thank you for joining us on apex express. Enjoy the show.   Miko Lee: [00:04:24] First off. Let’s take a listen to one of Byron Au Young’s compositions called “Know Your Rights” This is part of the trilogy of the Activist Songbook. This multi-lingual rap, give steps to know what to do when ICE officers come to your door.    MUSIC   That was “Know Your Rights” performed by Jason Chu with lyrics by Aaron Jeffries and composed by Byron Au Yong Welcome, Chi Thai to Apex Express.    Chi Thai: [00:07:13] Hello. I’m really happy to be joining you, Miko.  Miko Lee: [00:07:16] I’m really happy to meet you and learn about you as an artist, as a filmmaker, as a children’s book author. And I wanna first start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Chi Thai: [00:07:30] Ooh, what a great question. You know what? I love being asked stuff that hasn’t been asked kind of before. I mean, there’s a kinda really kinda natural answer to that, which is, you know, family are my people. Of course. 100%. And certainly, you know, the reason why I’m talking to you today, you know, in regard to the, to the book, you know, it’s about my family’s journey. But I found, and I don’t know if this is. Somewhat to do with, you know, being a child of two cultures and you know, being a child of the diaspora that you really have to kind of find your own family too. ’cause I suppose I grew up feeling, I didn’t quite relate to maybe my parents in a way that, you know, you normally would if you weren’t part of the diaspora. And I felt estranged from my birth country and I didn’t really feel like British either a lot of the time. So in terms of like, who are my people? I’ve gathered those people as I’ve kind of grown up and it’s, it’s a kind of strange feeling too. I feel like it’s taken me a really long to grow up and to figure out who I am. And I suppose that’s why, you know, the people that I have a really, a lot of people that have come, kinda later in my life, I actually have no friends in my childhood as an example of that. I’ve had to kind of find these people as I’ve grown up, but it’s taken me a long time to grow up because growing up in the UK there wasn’t any literature to read about what it was like to be Asian. And British, to be a refugee and things like that. So it just took me longer and I then, as a result, it just took me longer to find my tribe. but I have it now, but it’s still work in progress. That was a very convoluted answer. I’m very sorry Miko.    Miko Lee: [00:09:15] No, it wasn’t. No worries. It’s fine. And what legacy do you carry with you?   Chi Thai: [00:09:19] Kind of an extension to that answer, I think when you’re an artist, practicing your voice, figuring out your voice, can take a while. And I think I’ve only really started maybe the last like five to 10 years at the most really figured out what I want my legacy to be. The things I wanna talk about are really about s tories from the diaspora, certainly, and about community and healing. These are the things I think that are really important to me, especially when we talk about maybe coming from struggle. I don’t feel it’s enough to be an artist today and just talk about struggle. I want to talk about justice as well. And justice really is about healing, you know?    Miko Lee: [00:10:00] Oh, that’s beautiful. Can you talk a little bit more about that healing and what that means to you and how that shows up in your work?    Chi Thai: [00:10:07] A couple years ago, no, not even that long ago, I produced a, a feature film. This is probably the best example for it, but I produced a feature film called Raging Grace, which we called it Horror with a small H and it. Basically took the story of what it was like to be, undocumented Filipina in the uk who was also a mother. And I think if that film had been made 10 years ago, it would just shown how hard her life was, and unrelentingly. So, and I think the reason why Raising Grace is so special is it goes beyond the trauma, it takes us to a place of justice, of being able to speak out for someone who has felt invisible, to be visible for someone who’s not. Had a voice, to have a voice and to begin that kind of healing process of sticking up for herself, making a change transforming herself from maybe the good immigrant to the bad immigrant and things like that. I think that’s a really great example and I think I read a really wonderful thing. It might have been in a Guardian article where we, so a lot of my work is around, inclusion representation of like diasporic stories. And I think when you have, when you exist in the poverty of like representation, I. the solution to that is plentitude. I think that Viet Thanh Nguyen probably said that, so I don’t wanna take credit for it. He comes up with so many wonderful things, and that’s a wonderful thing to be able to move from poverty, like to plentitude and that be the solution, is kinda really wonderful. So I enjoy being really prolific. I enjoy supporting artists to be able to do their work. So as a community, we can also be prolific and I wanna support, narratives that. Take us beyond a place of struggle and trauma to a place of like healing and justice and so forth.    Miko Lee: [00:11:57] Your work crosses so many genres. You were just mentioning how that film was kind of a horror film and, and then you’ve done these kind of dreamy animation pieces and then now this children’s book. Do you select the genre and the format and the medium, or does it select you?   Chi Thai: [00:12:16] Oh, I think the story chooses it. I like 100% believe that. I just actually was thinking about this ’cause I was doing an interview on something else, people, often ask about the creative process and I, can only speak for my own. But usually when I get an idea for a story, the general shape of it comes almost like really well formed. There’s a sense of a lready kinda what genre it’ll be. There’s a sense of the character, there’s a sense of the journey and all these things. I felt the same about, writing The Endless Sea I knew it would be from the voice of a child. This probably sounds like my creative process is terrible, but it was just. This is how it was going to be. That kind of part was writing itself, or at least I feel that it’d been writing itself like that in my subconscious for many, many years before it kind of surfacing and writing. Like the writing bit is just the tip of the iceberg at the end of the day. there wasn’t like a kind of decision about that. the story in that sense was quite intact. So I often feel like the story is demanding something about kind genre and for, for Raging Grace ’cause I’ve talked about this a lot, not just in listen to me, but other things. But we always said like if you are an an undocumented person, every breath you take is taken in a hostile environment. It’s so natural for it to be a horror. So there’s not a sense that you kinda decide that it’s like that is the very reality of someone who’s going, you know, that’s their lived experience. And if you’re going to represent that truthfully, it will be through the prism of horror. And I suppose that’s how I think about genre. the story is kind of telling you what it needs to tell its emotional truth. and I felt that way, with The Endless Sea same thing with the Raging Grace, with Lullaby. And I think you talked about The Promise, I suppose I, with The Promise, which is an adaptation I had less choice about that because that was a book and it was a adapted into an animation. I’ve heard Nicola, who’s the author of the book, talk about that and she talks about like the story coming to her in a dream and tiptoeing down her arm coming onto the page, she like describes it really beautifully. so maybe our processes are the same. It feels that way. there’s not long deliberations. I mean, that’s not to say the writing process isn’t difficult. It is. But that, I’ve never found the, [genre] the difficulty or the bit that’s required a lot of, I don’t know soul searching with it.    Miko Lee: [00:14:28] So with that being said, how did Endless Sea your latest children’s book? How did that tiptoe into your imagination?    Chi Thai: [00:14:36] This is a strange one because this is probably the closest thing to like, almost autobiographical work. What I can say is like, it’s the true story o f how I and my family, which would’ve been at the time my mom and dad, my older sister, me, how we fled Vietnam after the fall of an Saigon. we actually left quite late we left in 1979 w hen things were tr were getting truly, truly, truly, quite terrible. And, this was very much a last resort. I think my parents would try to make things work, but realized that they couldn’t. This journey that we took on these, boats that were made badly, made poorly, that many of which sank has become almost like the genesis story of our family. It’s like it’s a big, it has a long shadow, right? Ever since you know I, it is like the first story that I can remember. It’s one of the few stories my mom would tell me again and again when we, when they see their old friends, it’s something they talk about. So it’s something that has happened to it to us, but it’s such a big thing that it’s just, echoed In my life growing up, as I’ve you know, got older and older, and the wonderful thing about having a story kinda live with you eventually it’s in your blood and in your bones, but also if it’s a thing that’s kinda shared with you again and again, you actually build up this, there’s something about the repetition of it, and then every time you hear it told from an uncle or a family friend or from your mom, a new little detail is embroidered that someone adds. So I’ve kinda lived with this story for 40 plus years and I’ve been collecting all these little things about it all this time and all that time it was, I think, kind of just writing itself, you know? You know, it was doing all that work before I actually put like pen to paper. Um, yeah.    Miko Lee: [00:16:31] Was there a catalyst or something that made you actually put the pen to paper?   Chi Thai: [00:16:36] That’s really interesting. You know, I probably don’t mind it is probably something really banal like. I think I probably wrote it during Covid and I had more time. Um, I think there are probably be some bigger forces in place. And you know what, I can tell you what it is actually if I’m, I’m forcing myself to think and examine a bit closer so when this is totally true. So I remember hearing the news about Viet Thanh Nguyen win winning the Pulitzer for The Sympathizer. And it made such a mark on me and I kind of felt, wow, someone from our community has achieved this incredible thing. And I thought, why? Why now? Like, and I was like, well, you know what? It’s probably taken our community certain amount of time to come of age, to develop not just the abilities to write, to create, to make art, but also to have possibly the relationships or networks in place to be able to then make the art and get it out into the world. And I kind of felt when he was able to do that and came of age, I kind of felt there was going to be like other people from the kind of diasporic Vietnamese community that would also start to flourish. And that made me feel really good. About probably being a bit older than the average kind of artist, like making their, kinda like their pieces and everything and saying, you know what? My time can be now. It’s okay. And I just find it just really inspiring that, you know our community was kind of growing, growing up, coming of age and being able to do these, these things And I kind of felt like it had given me the permission, I suppose the, the confidence to go, “Oh this story that I’ve been carrying my whole life, which I don’t really see a version of out there I can write that and now I can write it and I’m the right person to write it.” And I had just done The Promise so I had a relationship with Walker. I was like, I have a, you know, a relationship with the publisher. I feel my writing is matured. Like I can do this. And so it was like a culmination and, you know, convergence of those things. And, but I do remember having that thought thinking, “This is a good time to be alive in our community ’cause we’re actually able to make our art and get it out there now.” I, I felt it was like a real watershed moment really.   Miko Lee: [00:19:11] What made you decide to do it in this format as a Little Kid’s Children’s Illustrated book? We were talking earlier about how to, to me, this is the first more realistic version of a boat people experience in a very little kid’s voice. What made you decide to do it in this style?    Chi Thai: [00:19:33] So interesting. At the same time, I was writing The Endless Sea. I was writing also the script for a short film, which is called Lullaby, which is takes an incident that happened on my boat but expresses it as a film, as a little kinda horror kinda drama, but a kid cannot watch that. It’s like too terrifying. Um, and I wrote, you know, The Endless Sea at the same time. And again, I can’t, it’s really hard for me to articulate. I just knew it was gonna be a kid’s book, like, and I knew it’d be written from the voice of a kid, and I didn’t actually, can I say I didn’t even ascribe a particular kind of value to that. It wasn’t until I had started conversations with the publisher they’re like, you know, we see like there’s a really high, like this is really great that it’s written in the voice of the kid. It somehow gives it something else. Something more is something kind of special. I didn’t set out to like, overthink, like what was the most effective way to tell this story? I, I think I just told the story as honestly as I could, you know, with the words that I felt that, you know, I had in me to de, you know, to describe it. In the most authentic way to, to me. And like I say, at the same time, I knew, like I knew that was a kid’s book. There was another part of that I wanted to express that was really important to me and that was survivor’s guilt. But that I felt was like, that was a horror, so that was really not gonna be suitable for kids. So I was definitely thinking about lots of things to do with the same subject of the same time, but they were definitely being expressed in different ways. And again, Lullaby came to me very kind of quickly, almost fully formed. And I knew, you know, it would be a ghost story. I knew it would be the story of a mother and things like that. And I often maybe, you know, I should, I, I should interrogate more, but I kinda, I take these kinda. These ideas, which are quite well shaped and, and then I just like lean into them more and more and more. But they, the way they arrive it, I’ve kinda, I, I can see a lot of what is already about to unfold.   Miko Lee: [00:21:43] And do you still dream about that experience of being on the boat as a kid?    Chi Thai: [00:21:52] It’s, it’s a really difficult thing to explain because you know that that happened now so long ago, and I’ve probably heard the story thousands of times. I’ve watched all the terrible Hollywood movies, I’ve seen all the news clippings, I’ve watched all the archive. I’ve listened to, you know, people talk, and I have my own memories and I look at photographs and I have memories of looking at photographs. I feel like, you know, my memory is really unreliable, but what it is instead is it’s this, this kind of, kind of tapestry of, you know, of the story of memories, of, you know, images as I grow up of hearing the story, like all coming together. One of the things I did when I wrote, I wrote The Endless Sea, is I then went back to my mom and I did a recorded interview with her ’cause I was really worried about how unreliable my memory might be. And I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions and I said, and I, it was like, you know, in the way I would’ve just like listened to the story quite passively before this time I interviewed her and I asked a lot of questions about details and all sorts of things. ’cause I really wanted to be able to represent things, you know, as factually as I could. And that was kinda one of my kinda kind of fact checking kinda exercises I did ’cause I was, I was much quite worried about how unreliable my memory was about it all. And you know, what is, what is a memory of a memory of memory, like, you know, especially when it comes to thinking about that time on the boat and the feelings I had. Yeah. So, you know,    Miko Lee: [00:23:34] and you were so young also to    Chi Thai: [00:23:37] Totally 100%. And sometimes, I don’t know, you know, is it a memory of a memory? Is it a dream of a dream?   Miko Lee: [00:23:44] Mm-hmm.    Chi Thai: [00:23:44] Or just some, yeah.   Miko Lee: [00:23:46] Was there anything that your mom said that surprised you?    Chi Thai: [00:23:50] Yeah. Um, she didn’t realize how bad it was gonna be and she was like, “God, if it, I’d known how terrifying it was I dunno if I, we could have done it.” I think there’s a certain amount of naivety involved and I suppose that surprised me. You know? ’cause we know already now how bad it was. Um, so things like that surprised me.    Miko Lee: [00:24:15] and your mom, the dedication of the book is to your mom. What does she think when she first read it?    Chi Thai: [00:24:22] I’ve got a funny story. My parents, you know, they, we left, they were in their early twenties and I think it was, you know, the escape was hard for them, but settling in new country was really hard for them. That’s. That’s been kind of their struggle. They had to work so hard, so many hours to kind of, you know, give us a great life. And, I think a lot of that meant they weren’t people that could go out, enjoy, enjoy movies, look at art, read lots of literature and things like that. They’re very, very simple, very working class. Simple life or working class kinda life. Very much all about, uh, the work. Um, and I remember when I had a, the publisher had made like a mockup of the book and I gave it to my mum to read ’cause I wanted her to be happy about it too, and she’s probably been my toughest critic. I think everything I’ve done, she hasn’t really liked, to be honest. Um, and when I gave her the mockup to read. She went, “Yeah,” but she said it in such a way I knew what she meant was Yeah, that’s right. You know, that’s the truth. That’s the, you know, the book isn’t the testimony, but it felt like she was saying yeah. It was like the simple kind of approval. It wasn’t like a lot    Miko Lee: [00:25:50] That is the most Asian mom’s approval ever.    Chi Thai: [00:25:54] It’s so funny, like people say to me, oh Chi, it’s such a beautiful book. Oh, the writing so lit, like lyrical. It’s stripped back, it’s elegant. Like, you know, Viet Thanh Nguyen , like God bless his like consults, gave me a comment to put in the book, said these wonderful things, and my mom goes, “yeah.”. You know, it made me laugh at the time, but I knew what it meant. And I also was old enough, I was mature enough, you know, God, if she’d given me that, if I’d been 20 written that I might have cried and my heart might have broken. Right. But I, I knew I had, I’ve so much compassion, you know, for my parents. Mm-hmm. And people like my parents, what they’ve been through and, you know, but    Miko Lee: [00:26:38] That was incredibly high praise for her.    Chi Thai: [00:26:40] It was, I couldn’t have asked more.   Miko Lee: [00:26:47] Oh, I totally get that. I think that’s such an Asian thing. That is so funny.    Chi Thai: [00:26:53] It is, it is. I didn’t feel bad. I, I remember showing her Lullaby, um, and she didn’t like it at all.    Miko Lee: [00:27:02] What did she say? What is her not like voice? What did she say to that?    Chi Thai: [00:27:05] Oh, she. Well, firstly, she, well, the, the film is almost silent because basically it tells a story. It’s inspired by a mother that was on our boat who lost her baby on the border crossing, and I was very much ever, for as long as I knew about this woman’s story, I was like, I was very much haunted by it, and I was haunted by, you know, the fact that that’s how she felt and her guilt. Over losing her baby on this journey. And I knew, I knew I wanted to tell her story. ’cause one of the things I feel very strongly about is when you are on the losing side. So I’m from South Vietnam, like that’s not the, you know, that’s not the story that’s told, the story is told of who triumphs at the end of the day. And I was just like all those people that we lost at sea, this mother, her baby. The stories kind of aren’t told. So I kind of felt really strongly that this was somehow a very creative way to put down like a, an historical record like this happened. And actually I found out after making the film that five babies were lost in our boat, not just one.   Miko Lee: [00:28:24] Wow. So what did she say, your mom say?   Chi Thai: [00:28:28] Yes. So I made this film, which was for the most part, a silent film. This is a woman that’s shut down. She barely speaks anymore. She is living with the guilt ever. You know, when she was on the boat before her baby died, she sang a lullaby, and ever since then, she hasn’t been able to speak again. And then we find out that she has been haunted by the ghost of her child that she lost. And then a bit too, you know, to kind of free herself from that. She, she actually sings, you know, the, the film culminates in her singing the Luby one last time. S saying Goodbye finally being able to move beyond her Gild and I Griffin, saying goodbye and hoping she’s able to, you know, progress. So I made a film about that was largely silence except for this lullaby, and my mum watched it. She went, next time you make a film, you know you need more words. I was just like, oh, I think my heart probably did crumple off a bit a bit at that point.    Miko Lee: [00:29:30] Aw.    Chi Thai: [00:29:31] You know? Um, but yeah. But yeah, it’s okay. It’s okay because you know what? My mom doesn’t get to see stuff like that very often. So sometimes she doesn’t have the wider, and this is why, I mean, like, the life that she’s had, you know, hasn’t been one where she’s been able to surround herself with, oh, I’m so lucky. You know, my life has been so different, but it’s been different. Different because of, you know what she’s, what she’s done for us, so it’s okay. I can take it on the chin when she says my film doesn’t have enough dialogue in it.    Miko Lee: [00:30:04] I love that. For you, have you had conversations with your mom about your life as an artist, and what are her thoughts on that?   Chi Thai: [00:30:16] Well say. So I, so my mom, I don’t really like, you know, she’s probably not that into it. I’ll be honest about being an artist. I can understand why she wants you to have a good life. And I would say for the most part, being an artist is, is a, is a tough life because it’s hard to make, you know, the, the pennies work, right?   Miko Lee: [00:30:44] She wants stability for you, right?    Chi Thai: [00:30:45] Yeah, exactly. But she’s made a peace with it. And basically what happened, I think all the best story is gonna be about my mom, right? Is that she basically, I, I, um, I have a partner, we’ve been together for 15 years. Um, he’s a really nice guy and he has a reliable job and we have two kids together and i,    Miko Lee: [00:31:08] So that makes it okay.   Chi Thai: [00:31:10] So yeah, this is what I was saying. So she said to me like. It doesn’t really matter what you do now. ’cause she, you are already peaked. You’re somebody’s wife. We’re not married. But she told everyone in Vietnam we were married ’cause she couldn’t cope with this not being like having kids out of wedlock. In her head. She’s rewritten that we are married. Right. She’s like, you are married, you’re somebody’s wife and you mother, it doesn’t get better than that. So if you are an artist or if you’re a filmmaker, whatever, it doesn’t matter. ’cause nothing can be better than that. Right. So she’s accepted on the basis that I’ve already fulfilled, kind of my promise.   Miko Lee: [00:31:46] Wow. Interesting.    Chi Thai: [00:31:50] And she means that in the nicest possible way.    Miko Lee: [00:31:52] Yeah.    Chi Thai: [00:31:52] That she feels like you have a home, you have stability, you have someone who loves you, you know, you have a, a purpose in life, but really her value, you know, the way, I think, the way she measures my value is like, that’s how she looks at it. The, the art is something else.    Miko Lee: [00:32:10] Well, I really appreciate you sharing your art with us in the world and your various, um, genres and styles. And I’m wondering how our audience can find out more about your work. Clearly we’ll put links to where people can buy the book and let’s see, but how do they find out more about your films?   Chi Thai: [00:32:28] Um, so that like, because it is the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War in 2025. Actually the very anniversary of that is the tomorrow, the 30th, April, right? Um, you can watch Lullaby on Altar, which is a YouTube channel. Um, and I can give you the link for it. Rating Grace is on Paramount Plus if you want to, if you’ve got Paramount Plus, but you can also buy it from all the usual kind of places too. Um, and you know, and we’ll see us from all great book stockists, I imagine in, in the us.   Miko Lee: [00:33:07] Thank you so much. Um, I’d love to get, I’d love for you to send me the link so I could put ’em in the show notes. I really appreciate chatting with you today. Um, is there anything else you’d like to share?    Chi Thai: [00:33:19] Um, no, I think, I think that’s good. Your, your questions are so good. Mika, I’m already like, kinda like processing them all. Uh, yes.    Miko Lee: [00:33:30] Well, it was a delight to chat with you and to learn more about your artistic vision, and my wishes are that you continue to grow and feel blessed no matter what your mama says, because deep down, she’s still proud of you. Even if she doesn’t say it out loud.    Chi Thai: [00:33:47] I believe it. I totally believe it.    Miko Lee: [00:33:50] Yay. Thank you so much for spending time with us on Apex Express.Next up, listen to stay, go from dark heart, a concert narrative by singer and songwriter Golda Sargento.   MUSIC   That was the voice of Golda Sargento from the new Filipino futurism punk rock sci-fi dark heart. Welcome, Livia Blackburne Children’s book, author of Nainai’s Mountain. Welcome to Apex Express.    Livia Blackburne: [00:38:56] Thank you so much for having me.    Miko Lee: [00:38:58] I wanna start with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    Livia Blackburne: [00:39:05] I am Chinese American, and so I carry the stories of my grandparents who fled China to Taiwan, fled that war. And I also carry the stories of my parents and myself who immigrated. To America, and I am, I grew up in New Mexico, so I have fond memories of green chili and new Mexican food. I went to college, Harvard and MIT on the east coast. So I’ve got a bit of that kind of ivory tower. And now I’m in LA and, you know, my people are, my family and my community, the writing community here. So I, I’m a big mix. Yes.    Miko Lee: [00:39:44] What legacy do you carry with you?    Livia Blackburne: [00:39:47] I mentioned a bit of my grandparents and my parents. What they went through in the war in China, and then my parents and me coming here. the experience of being here in two worlds, coming from Taiwan having that cultural background and also, growing up in the United States. The culture I’ve been surrounded with here as well.    Miko Lee: [00:40:06] Thank you so much for sharing. Can you tell us about your new illustrated children’s book? Nainai’s Mountain. What inspired this work?    Livia Blackburne: [00:40:14] The story of this book actually started with another book that is coming out in a couple years that actually I can’t share too much about. My grandparents fled the war in China and then my. Parents grew up in Taiwan and I wanted to preserve that family story. My parents are getting older. So I started doing oral interviews with my parents about their childhood, what it was like, growing up. I wouldn’t say they weren’t refugees in Taiwan. It’s a very complicated political situation, but they were transplants to Taiwan, and what it was like growing up there, their daily life. What kind of things they did when they were a child, their pastimes, I wanted to preserve their stories and I got a lot of great material., A lot of that is going into a novel that I’m currently working on. But also as I worked on it, there were so many great details that I thought would be really good in a picture book as well. Also, I’m a mother now. I have an 8-year-old daughter, and she is half Caucasian, half Asian. She has never gone to Taiwan before and I. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking, it would be really great to, I do want to share Taiwan and, my own childhood, home with her at some point. And so I start imagining what would it be like to bring her back to Taiwan and show her everything. And that became the seed for Nainai’s Mountain, which is a. Story of a girl visiting Taiwan for the first time with her grandmother. And her grandmother shows her around and tells her stories about her childhood, and the girl through her grandmother’s eyes, sees Taiwan, you know, for the beautiful place that it is.    Miko Lee: [00:41:56] You also wrote the book I Dream of Popo. How are these companions to each other and also for audiences that might not speak Chinese. One is a grandmother on the mother’s side, and the other is the grandmother on the father’s side. Can you talk about how I dream of Popo is linked to Nainai’s Mountain?   Livia Blackburne: [00:42:15] Thank you for pointing that out. Yes. So Popo is maternal grandmother, and Nainai is a paternal grandmother. And that is a fantastic question. So I dream of popo is kind of my story. So it’s about a little girl who moves from Taiwan , to the United States and it’s about her relationship with her grandmother who stays in Taiwan. And it talks about, how a close relationship, navigating long geographical distances about the language barrier that comes up. And that was very much me, Nainai’s Mountain. It’s kind of like Popo in reverse, you know, it’s now it’s someone going back to Taiwan and kind of getting in touch with those roots. That, as I mentioned, that’s inspired by my daughter. And you’ll see in Nainai’s Mountain, I specified that the child should be, half Asian, half Caucasian. Because, I wanted more of that representation in the children’s literature.    Miko Lee: [00:43:07] Thank you. I, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the artistic style. So you are the author, but you had different illustrators for both of the books and the style is really different. The in, when I look at Nainai’s Mountain, which I’m holding here, it’s sort of collage and really vibrant colors. Where I Dream of Popo has a different, more. I’m almost realistic, kind of look to it. And I’m wondering what your process was like in collaborating with illustrators.    Livia Blackburne: [00:43:37] That’s one of the best things about being a picture book author, is that you get to collaborate with so many illustrators and they all have such different styles, such different visions. Most of the time it’s the publisher who chooses the illustrator, although they. Consult me usually. My editor for I Dream of Popo picked Julia Kuo. And she sent me samples and I loved it. And, it was great. I’m friends with Julia now and that book did really well. It was very well known, especially in kind of Taiwanese American, Asian American circles. And so when I did, Nainai’s mountain, that was with a different publishing house and my editor. He very consciously said, you know, because it’s also a book about Taiwan and a grandmother. We don’t want to get it confused with I dream of Popo. So, we made a conscious decision to pick an artist with a very different style and Joey Chou is fantastic. He’s very well known for his Disney art. You can see his art in a lot of the hotels and cruise ships. And, he, very bright, vibrant, and I, he’s also from Taiwan. I think he did a fantastic job.   Miko Lee: [00:44:41] And have the artistic work ever surprised you as being really different from your imagination while you were writing?    Livia Blackburne: [00:44:48] That’s a great question. I don’t think they’ve ever surprised me. By being different. They surprised me in the specifics that they’ve chosen. For example, I dream of Popo. Julia, spent a lot of time in Taiwan and she put in these great, Taiwan details that, you know, if you’re from Taiwan, you would know for sure. There’s like a specific brand of rice cooker called the rice cooker, and she has one there and like the giant bag of rice in the corner, and the calendar on the wall.   Miko Lee: [00:45:16] Even the specificities of the food and the trays and everything is quite lovely.    Livia Blackburne: [00:45:20] Yeah, yeah. You know, every time I read that, I look at that spread, I get hungry. So surprise there. And, with Joey, I, I love how he does the different, there’s kind of flashback pictures and there’s, pictures now and. The thing about him, his color, I just love the color that he put in from the greens, of Taiwan to kind of the bright fluorescent lights, neon lights of Taipei, and then there’s kind of the slight sepia tones of the past and he just, you know, brings it so to life so well.   Miko Lee: [00:45:49] I didn’t know he was a Disney animator, but it totally makes sense because it feels very layered. It does feel animated in a way and kind of alive. So I appreciate that.   Livia Blackburne: [00:45:59] I’m not sure. If he’s an animator. He does a lot of art for the theme parks and like products and the cruise ships and stuff. I’m not sure.    Miko Lee: [00:46:07] Oh, interesting.   Livia Blackburne: [00:46:07] He does like movies and  stuff.    Miko Lee: [00:46:08] Interesting. It looks like animation though. Your book.    Livia Blackburne: [00:46:13] It does look very, yeah. Lively. Mm-hmm.    Miko Lee: [00:46:16] That I’m looking forward to that series. That would be so cute. The grandmother series as a whole little mini series traveling to different places. can you tell us about your new book, Dreams to Ashes? Has that been released yet?   Livia Blackburne: [00:46:29] Dreams to Ashes? That has been released that, released about a month before Nainai’s Mountain. Yeah, that one’s quite a bit different. So that one is a nonfiction book and it’s a picture book, and it’s about the Los Angeles massacre of 1871. Whenever people, I tell people about that, they’re like, wait, you wrote a picture book about a massacre? Which is slightly counterintuitive. So I never knew about the Los Angeles massacre growing up. And, and, given that I am a Chinese person in Los Angeles, that is kind of weird. Basically, it was a race massacre that occurred. One of the biggest mass lynchings in history, uh, where there was a between two rival Chinese organizations and a white bystander was killed. And because of that, , a mob formed and they rounded the Chinese population up basically. And. Blame them for that death. In the end, 18 Chinese men were killed and only one of them were involved in the original gunfight. It was a horrible tragedy. And unfortunately, as often happened with these kind of historical tragedies in our country, nobody was really punished for it. A few men were indicted and convicted, but their convictions were overturned and it just kind of disappeared into history. And it really struck me that, you know, nobody knew about this. I wanted to kind of bring this to light and unfortunately when I was writing it, it was also, during the Covid pandemic and, I was seeing a lot of anti-Asian rhetoric, anti-Asian hate crimes were going up. And I saw so many parallels between what happened. Back then, because, you know, Chinese people specifically were being vilified , they were being called immoral, stealing people’s jobs. And you can see in the years before the massacre the newspapers were saying horrible things and, you know, the hate was just becoming very strong and all that exploded one night into an unspeakable tragedy. Unfortunately as an author, you want your work to be relevant, but sometimes you don’t want your work to be relevant in this way. Right. Nowadays I’m seeing so much rhetoric again against immigrants and not of many ethnicities. And in some ways I’m sad. That, this is happening now. And I also hope that this book will contribute to the conversation and show how the danger of racism and xenophobia and hate and what, what can happen because of that.   Miko Lee: [00:48:55] So this occurred in the late 1800s, right? Was it before the Chinese Exclusion Act?    Livia Blackburne: [00:49:03] Yes, it was before the Chinese Exclusion Act. So you’d hope that people kinda learn from these things. And it was just kind of one of the, one of the horrible things that happened on the way to the Chinese Exclusion Act and Chinese immigrants being excluded basically Chinese laborers at least.   Miko Lee: [00:49:23] Oh wow. Okay. I’m looking this up now. And 1882 we know was the Chinese Exclusion Act and this incident actually happened in 1871. Yes. A decade beforehand, Helen Zia always talks about these moments that are missing. MIH missing in history and this is clearly another one of, another time of just wiping out a population.I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit more about how Children’s Books can make a difference in the world that we’re currently living in, where our government is banning books and you know that there’s a narratives that they want to align with a certain kind of conservative ideology. Can you talk about the power of being a Children’s Book author in this time that we’re living in right now? . I’m really thinking about dreams to Ashes and even I dream of Popo and even Nainai’s Mountain, which you would think, oh, they’re, you, they’re visiting their grandparent, their grandmothers, that would not be controversial. But now when even words like inclusion and diversity are threatened and books are being banned, I’m just wondering if you could. Share a little bit more about your superpower as a children’s book author?    Livia Blackburne: [00:50:31] Yeah, that’s a fantastic question. We live in a time right now, there’s, a lot of hate, a lot of intolerance, a lot of fear of different people groups. And a lot of that I think is because people are unfamiliar with people unlike themselves. They see. People who are different, look differently, act differently, speak differently, and it scares them. And I think the best way to get around that is to actually get to know people of other backgrounds, to see them as human. And I think that’s where children’s books come in. ‘Cause we don’t, children are not born. With this hate of the other. They learn it. But, if they grow up being familiar with people of different backgrounds seeing their stories seeing them as, normal human beings, which, should be obvious, but sometimes it’s hard, for adults to realize. Then, I’m hoping, as a children’s book author that it will lead to a more empathetic world. And perhaps that’s why the government sometimes in certain groups are wanting to, censor this and control the flow of children’s books because, children are the most their minds are still open. They’re still able to learn.    Miko Lee: [00:51:48] And Livia, tell us what you’re working on next.   Livia Blackburne: [00:51:53] So right now I am. Working on a historical middle grade. We haven’t quite announced it yet, so I can’t say the title or too many details, but it is based on my family history of my parents and grandparents who moved from China to Taiwan after the civil War.   Miko Lee: [00:52:12] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.   The post APEX Express – 6.19.25 We Are All Connected appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Isabel Li broadcasts her first show Obbligato, centered on music by contemporary classical composers who identify as Asian American Pacific Islander. Tonight’s show features music by Grammy nominated Chinese American composer Zhou Tian, who blends musical inspiration from different cultures and mixes them seamlessly into a musically satisfying combination for performers and audiences alike. The Wall Street Journal states that his works accomplish 2 important things. They remind us of how we got from there to here, and they refine that history by paying belated tribute to contributors who might otherwise be forgotten. Obbligato Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   Isabel Li [00:00:50 ] Good evening and thank you for tuning in to APEX Express on KPFA, 94.1 FM. We are bringing you an Asian and Asian American view from the Bay and around the world. Isabel Li [00:01:00] I’m your host, Isabel Li, and tonight is my first Apex Express show that I’ve named Obbligato, a show centered on music by contemporary classical composers who identify as Asian American Pacific Islander. Tonight’s show features music by Grammy nominated Chinese American composer Zhou Tian, who blends musical inspiration from different cultures and mixes them seamlessly into a musically satisfying combination for performers and audiences alike. The Wall Street Journal states that his works accomplish 2 important things. They remind us of how we got from there to here, and they refine that history by paying belated tribute to contributors who might otherwise be forgotten. Isabel Li [00:01:45] Before we get into the music of Zhou Tian, because this is my first time on Apex Express, I’ll briefly introduce myself. I’m Isabel Li, a second generation Chinese American violinist, writer, filmmaker and researcher, and I strive to amplify the works of AAPI artists and musicians, especially in relation to classical music. My senior thesis film in undergrad, for example, was a short narrative film about a Chinese American cellist who bridges intergenerational divides through music. I believe that Asian and Asian American identities in the world of classical music, which is usually associated with whiteness, European culture and elitism, are especially interesting to study. Isabel Li [00:02:28] Because there is a considerable proportion of classical musicians and composers who do identify as Asian American, there’s a great book that talks about this, actually called Musicians from a Different Shore: Asians and Asian Americans in Classical Music by author Mari Yoshihara, which I read while researching for my film. Through this show, I hope to highlight works by some of these AAPI identifying musicians and composers, and further discussions about this intersection of Asian identities and classical music. Isabel Li [00:02:59] I’m really excited to get into the music of composer Zhou Tian, described as a prime example of 21st century global multiculturalism. Born into a musical family in Hangzhou, China, Zhou moved to the US when he was 19. Trained at Curtis, Juilliard and USC, he studied with some of America’s finest composers, such as Jennifer Higdon, Christopher Rouse and Stephen Hartke. His music has been performed by leading performers and orchestras, Including to name a few, Jaap van Zweden, Yuja Wang, Manfred Honeck, Long Yu, Noah Bendix-Balgley, the New York Philharmonic, London Philharmonic, San Francisco Symphony. Pittsburgh Symphony. The Dover Quartet, as well as the Shanghai Symphony, where he recently served as artist in residence. He is currently professor of composition at Michigan State University. 00:03:54 Isabel Li Starting off today’s show is an orchestral piece by Zhou Tian composed in 2019, that was commissioned by the Shanghai Symphony titled Gift or 《禮獻》 in Chinese gift pays tribute to traditional Chinese poetry and music, specifically inspired by a poem titled Music as a Gift of decency by Shen Yue, from the northern and Southern dynasties, circa the year 400. Here is Joe Tiene’s gift, performed by the Shanghai Symphony, conducted by Long Yu. 04:10                     Comp Music – Gift 00:13:20 Isabel Li That was a resplendent orchestral piece to start off today’s show that was Zhou Tian’s Gift performed by the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Long Yu. 00:13:31 Isabel Li I really appreciate how this orchestral piece enmeshes folk tune sounding melodies with more contemporary sounding frenzied rhythms, especially with the syncopations that occur throughout the magnificent melodies. In fact, in one of the sections we actually hear this series of high pitched repeated dotted rhythms in Gift. 00:13:51 Isabel Li And it actually reminded me of how I got to know Zhou’s work in the first place. A few years ago I had been introduced to him as a composer through one of his other compositions, which unfortunately we will not be listening to today, but it is definitely worth listening at some point. It’s called Transcend and Zhou had written this in commemoration and in acknowledgement of the work of Chinese immigrant laborers who worked on the transcontinental railroad who, if you remember the photo of the final spike, there was not a single Chinese immigrant labor in sight in the photo and in that third movement of that Symphony of Transcend, we actually hear this rhythmic motif that signals DONE. It’s a Morse code rhythmic tapping of done. And it was very interesting to me because it’s also kind of historically informed when the transcontinental railroad was completed. 00:14:47 Isabel Li They actually signaled its completion by tapping DONE, this rhythm, and Joe had recaptured that and expressed that in a very artistic way through his compositional work, and I really appreciate this consistency in rhythmic, artistic musicality that he applies throughout all of his different works. 00:15:09 Isabel Li Coming up next is a piano solo performed by Zhou Tian himself. This is the 2022 piece that he wrote, inspired directly from the resonant bells of Buddhist temples called majestic bells, or in Chinese, 《輝煌的鐘聲》. Here is majestic bells performed by Zhou Tian on piano. 15:30                     Comp Music – Majestic Bells 00:20:53 Isabel Li That was composer Zhou Tian himself on piano playing the piano solo piece called Majestic Bells. What I really love about this piece is how Joe seems to combine influences from composers of the late 19th century and 20th century, especially if you observe with the parallel intervals parallel fifths especially and free flowing melodic forms. It kind of reminds me of the music of Bartok and Debussy, and how it’s both introspective and grandiose at the same time. Just as a reminder, thank you so much for listening to Apex Express on this Thursday evening on tonight’s edition of Obbligato on Apex Express, which focuses on work by contemporary AAPI, classical composers and musicians. 00:21:42 Isabel Li We’re focusing on the works of Grammy nominated Chinese American composer Zhou Tian. 00:21:48 Isabel Li Our next piece of music that we’ll be listening to is based on the Chinese proverb 《千年善禱》, which translates to A Thousand Years of Good Prayers. And that was the title of Zhou Tian’s orchestral piece. Composed in 2009, Zhou wanted to highlight the spiritual blessing in a very timeless way. Because this proverb stretches back to ancient times. Through his use of expanded orchestration and his various layers of percussion of orchestral melodies throughout this piece, here is A Thousand Years of Good Prayers performed by the USC Thornton Symphony, conducted by Donald Crockett. 22:00                      Comp Music – A Thousand Years of Good Prayers 00:31:11 Isabel Li An incredibly moving, sweeping piece of music for orchestra. 00:31:16 Isabel Li That was Zhou Tian’s A Thousand Years of Good Prayers, which is based on the story of the proverb The Chinese proverb 《千年善禱》, and the story goes, or perhaps I should say the legend goes, that good relationships really take 1000 years of good prayers to bring about and Zhou Tian was really tapping into the spiritual element of this proverb. And I think he really accomplished that feeling. 00:31:47 Isabel Li What I really appreciate about classical music in general, and why the show exists, is because classical music taps into the ineffable, the universal in all of us. What we don’t really have the language to communicate can be communicated through music. And Zhou Tian’s music is an example of how we can use this particular musical language to express these deeper meanings that can transcend linguistic, social, and even national boundaries. For this next piece. Now, because I’m a violinist, I couldn’t help but choose a piece that features the violin. 00:32:26 Isabel Li We’ll be hearing Zhou Tian’s Double Concerto for violin, Viola and orchestra, and it features 3 movements titled Play, Aria, and Rendezvous. However, because of time, we will only be hearing one of these movements and I picked the first movement where we hear the two instruments, the solo instruments, violin and viola, engage in an energetic dialogue, shifting between moments of cooperation and playful rivalry. 00:32:55 Isabel Li This is performed by Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on Viola, and the Hangzhou Philharmonic conducted by Yang Yang. 33:10                      Comp Music – Double Concerto for Violin and Viola, I. Play   00:46:08 Isabel Li Completed relatively recently in 2024, that was the Double concerto for violin and Viola by Zhou Tian, performed by Noah Bendix-Balgley on violin, Shanshan Yao on Viola with the Hangzhou Philharmonic conducted by Yang Yang. 00:46:25 Isabel Li As I was listening to this, and these are my violinist instincts kicking in, you know, it is a very virtuosic piece. So many complex rhythms, the violin and viola really have to work together to create this lyricism that is so energetic and playful at the same time. Like many of his other works, there is this unique combination of Chinese folk music and jazz like undertones in the rhythmic makeup of the piece. And it harkens back to another one of his very important works, which we will unfortunately not have time to listen to today, but his concerto for orchestra, which was composed back in 2016, earned him a Grammy Award nomination for Best Contemporary Classical Composition in 2018, making him the first Chinese born composer and the second Asian composer following the late Toru Takemitsu honored in that category. 00:47:22 Isabel Li The combination of folk tunes and jazz rhythms is such a unique and intriguing combination, and I think there is so much that can be communicated through this, such as paying tributes to various cultures, which Zhou Tian does very ingeniously. 00:47:39 Isabel Li And at the same time, Zhou really makes these types of folk music maybe more accessible to contemporary audiences who are more inclined to recognize jazz melodies and rhythms. 00:47:52 Isabel Li We are quickly approaching the end of this week’s edition of Apex Express, so for our final piece, we have an orchestral suite. 00:48:02 Isabel Li By Zhou Tian called broken Ink, the Chinese name is 《音詩》, and that is spectacularly interesting to me, because in literal translation, the Chinese title is sound poetry. It kind of reminds me of the Western classical music genre of a tone poem, usually symphonic pieces that evoke the mood or the story, and it’s usually inspired by some sort of poem or painting or literary work. 00:48:32 Isabel Li Broken Ink was commissioned by the city of Hangzhou, who wanted a major piece to celebrate the city’s magnificent cultural heritage. In Zhou’s words, he says, in Broken Ink, a symphonic suite inspired by the poetry of the Song dynasty, I sought to capture the poetic flavor that was lost in translation. 00:48:53 Isabel Li In the text, the work was built as a mosaic of Chinese musical traditions. 00:48:59 Isabel Li And the work contains 5 parts, each inspired by a particular poem. We will be listening to the 4th movement titled the Mighty River runs Eastward. 00:53:40 Comp Music – Broken Ink: IV. The Mighty River Runs Eastward 00:55:41 Isabel Li What you just heard was the Guangzhou Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Zhou Tian himself, the composer of his this orchestral suite titled Broken Ink, and this particular movement was the 4th movement, which has its own title because it was based on an individual poem itself from the Song Dynasty, called The Mighty River Runs Eastward. 00:56:04 Isabel Li I really appreciate how this orchestral suite has textures reminiscent of contemporary cinematic soundtracks, while staying true to Joe’s experimentation and storytelling through music, expressing these timeless stories across cultures, across languages, using his own musical style. 00:56:27 Isabel Li I want to use the remaining time to talk a little bit about my title of this show, Obbligato. Obbligato is a musical notation that notates that a musical line must not be omitted and must be played. 00:56:42 Isabel Li I think this is an apt name for highlighting contemporary AAPI composers and their works because there are so many vibrant creative stories of expression that can be told through classical music, expanding AAPI stories in new musical mediums. 00:56:59 Isabel Li Please check out our website kpfa.org to find out more about classical music in the API community on composer Zhou Tian, whose music we feature tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. 00:57:18 Isabel Li APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Have a great night. The post APEX Express – 6.12.25 Obbligato appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – June 5, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Happy Asian American & Pacific Islander Heritage Month! Even though the Trump Administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion here at APEX Express and KPFA. We believe in lifting up people’s voices and tonight on APEX Express the Powerleegirls are focusing on “Asian American Children’s book authors”. Powerleegirl hosts Miko Lee and daughter Jalena Keane-Lee speak with: Michele Wong McSween, Gloria Huang, and Andrea Wang   AAPINH Month Children’s Books part 1 transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:49] Happy Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Even though the Trump administration has eliminated recognizing cultural heritage months, we are still celebrating diversity and inclusion. Here at Apex Express and KPFA, we believe in lifting up people’s voices. And tonight on Apex Express, the PowerLeeGirls are focusing on Asian American Children’s book authors. PowerLeeGirl hosts Miko Lee and daughter Jalena Keane-Lee. Speak with Michele Wong McSween, Gloria Huang and Andrea Wang. Thanks for joining us tonight on Apex Express. Enjoy the show.   Miko Lee: [00:01:21] Welcome, Michele Wong McSween to Apex Express.    Michele Wong McSween: [00:01:26] Thank you, Miko. It’s nice to be here.    Miko Lee: [00:01:28] I’m really happy to talk with you about your whole children’s series, Gordon & Li Li, which is absolutely adorable. I wanna start very first with a personal question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:01:45] I would say my people are really my family starting with, my great, great grandparents who came here down to my grandparents, my parents, and onto my children because, to me family is. The reason why I created Gordon & Li Li in the first place, it was really to bridge that connection for my children. I didn’t grow up feeling that connected with my culture because as a fourth generation Chinese American, I was really in the belief that I’m American. Why do I need to know anything about my culture? Why do I need to speak Chinese? I never learned. As a sidebar to that, I never learned to speak Chinese and it didn’t really hit me until I had my own kids that I was really doing a disservice to not only my kids, but to myself. my people are my family. I do this for my kids. I do this to almost apologize to my parents for being so, Disrespectful to my amazing culture and I do it for the families who really want to connect and bridge that gap for their own children and for themselves.    Miko Lee: [00:02:53] And what legacy do you carry with you?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:02:55] Again, my family. My, great grandparents. Really. Started our family’s legacy with the hard work and the prejudices and all the things that they endured so that we could have a better life. And I’ve always felt that it is my responsibility to teach my own kids about the sacrifices that were made and not to make them feel guilty, but to just make them appreciate that we are here. Because of the the blood, sweat, and tears that their ancestors did for them. And so we are, eternally grateful for that. I think it’s important for us to continue that legacy of always doing our best, being kind and doing what we can do to further the experience of not just our family, but the people in our community that we connect with and to the greater world.    Miko Lee: [00:03:43] when you were growing up, were your parents speaking with you in Chinese and did you hear about your great grandparents and their legacy? Was that part of your upbringing?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:03:52] I heard about my great grandparents in the stories that my mom told us, but to be quite honest, I wasn’t receptive to really digging deep in my cultural understanding of. my great-grandfather and what he went through. I know mom, I know he came over in 19 whatever. I know he brought over all these young sons from his village, but I really didn’t fully take it in and. No, I didn’t hear Chinese spoken in the house much. The only time my parents spoke it was to each other so that we didn’t know what they were talking about. They had like this secret code, language. My experience with my language was not, That positive. we did attempt to go to Chinese school only to be teased by all the other kids because we didn’t speak it. It didn’t end up well. my mom ended up pulling us out and so no, we were really not connected all that much to the language.   Miko Lee: [00:04:48] I can really relate to what you’re saying. As a fifth generation Chinese American, and my parents their ancestors came from different provinces, so their dialects were so different that they even spoke to each other in English. ’cause they couldn’t understand each other in Chinese. So it happens so often. Yeah. Yeah. And so I really relate to that. I’m wondering if there was an epiphany in your life or a time where you thought, oh, I. I wish I knew more of those stories about my ancestors or was there some catalyst for you that changed?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:05:17] All of this really kind of happened when I moved to New York. I, you know, raised in Sacramento, went to college in the Bay Area, lived in San Francisco for a while with a job, and then I eventually moved to New York. And it wasn’t until I came to New York and I met Asians or Chinese Americans like me that actually spoke Chinese and they knew about cool stuff to do in Chinatown. It really opened my eyes to this new cool world of the Chinese culture because I really experienced Chinatown for the first time when I moved to New York. And it was just so incredible to see all these people, living together in this community. And they all looked the same. But here’s the thing, they all spoke Chinese, or the majority of them spoke Chinese. So when I went to Chinatown and they would look at me and speak to me in Chinese and I would give them this blank stare. They would just look at me like, oh my gosh, she doesn’t even speak her own language. And it kind of made me feel bad. And this was really the first time that it dawned on me that, oh wow, I, I kind of feel like something’s missing. And then it really hit me when I had my kids, because they’re half Chinese and I thought, oh my gosh, wait a minute, if I’m their last connection to the Chinese culture and I don’t speak the language. They have no chance of learning anything about their language they couldn’t go that deep into their culture if I didn’t learn about it. So that really sparked this whole, Gordon & Li Li journey of learning and discovering language and culture for my kids.    Miko Lee: [00:06:51] Share more about that. How, what happened actually, what was the inspiration for creating the Children’s book series?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:06:58] It was really my children, I really felt that it was my responsibility to teach them about their culture and language and, if I didn’t know the language, then I better learn it. So I enrolled all of us in different Mandarin courses. They had this, I found this really cute kids’ Mandarin class. I went to adult Mandarin classes and I chose Mandarin because that was the approved official language in China. I am from Taishan, My parents spoke Taishanese, but I thought, well, if Mandarin’s the official language, I should choose that one probably so that my kids will have at least a better chance at maybe some better jobs in the future or connecting with, the billion people that speak it. I thought Mandarin would be the way to go. When I started going to these classes and I just realized, wow, this is really hard, not just to learn the language, but to learn Mandarin Chinese, because we’re not just talking about learning how to say the four different tones. We’re talking about reading these characters that if you look at a Chinese character, you have absolutely no idea what it sounds like if you’re, if you’re learning Spanish or French or German, you can see the letters and kind of sound it out a little bit. But with Chinese characters. No chance. So I found it extremely difficult and I realized, wow, I really need to support my kids more because if I am going to be the one that’s going to be bridging this connection for them, I need to learn more and I need to find some more resources to help us. when we would have bedtime story time, that whole routine. That was always the favorite time of my kids to be really, quiet and they would really absorb what I was saying, or we would talk about our days or just talk about funny things and I realized, wow, these books that they love and we have to read over and over and over again. this is the way that they’re going to get the information. And I started searching high and low for these books. back in 2006, they didn’t exist. and so I realized if they didn’t exist and I really wanted them for my kids, then I needed to create them. That’s the impetus, is there was nothing out there and I really wanted it so badly that I had to create it myself.   Miko Lee: [00:09:09] Oh, I love that. And I understand you started out self-publishing. Can you talk a little bit about that journey?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:09:15] I’m glad I didn’t know what I know today because it was really hard. luckily I had, A friend who used to work for a toy company, it was all through connections. there was nothing really on Google about it. there was no Amazon print on demand. There were none of these companies that provide these services like today. So I just kept asking questions. Hey, do you know a toy manufacturer in China that maybe prints books? Do you know a company that could help me? get my books to the states. Do you know an illustrator that can help me illustrate my books? Because I had gone to fashion design school, but I had not learned to illustrate characters or things in a book. So asking questions and not being afraid to ask the questions was really how I was able to do it because, Without the help of friends and family, I wouldn’t have been able to do this. I had all my friends look at my books, show them to their kids. I had my kids look at them, and I kind of just figured it out as I went along. Ultimately when I did publish my first book, I had so much support from my kids’ schools. To read the books there, I had support from a local play space for kids that we would go to. I really leaned on my community to help me, get the books out there, or actually it was just one at the time. Two years later I self-published two more books. So I had three in total. no one tells you that when you self-publish a book, the easy part is actually creating it. The hard part is what comes after that, which is the pr, the marketing, the pounding, the pavement, knocking on the doors to ask people to buy your books, and that was really hard for me. I would just take my books in a bag and I would explain my story to people and I would show them my books. sometimes they would say, okay, I’ll take one of each, or Okay, we’ll try it out. and slowly but surely they would reorder from me. I just slowly, slowly built up, a whole Roster of bookstores and I kept doing events in New York.    I started doing events in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and through that I gained some following, some fans and people would tell their friends about me. they would give them to their nieces they would give them to their cousin’s kids, or, things like that. I knew that I had to do it because my ultimate goal was to have Scholastic be my publisher. That was my ultimate goal. Because they are the publisher that I grew up with, that I love that I connected with, that I was so excited to get their book club, little flyer. I would check off every book that I wanted. And my mom never said no. She always let me get every single book I wanted. I realize now that that’s what really Created the love of books for me is just having access to them and, going to the libraries and seeing all these books on the bookshelves and being able to take them out and read them on the spot. And then if I loved them enough, I would check them out and take them home and read them over and over. So it was really, my experience, having that love for books that I thought, oh gosh, it would be a dream. To have Scholastic become my publisher. So after 10 long years of events and community outreach and selling to these bookstores, I finally thought, okay, I’ve sold, about 17,000, 18,000 books. Maybe, maybe now I can take my series to them. I also had created an app. Maybe I can take this to them and show them what I’ve done. Maybe they’ll be interested in acquiring me. And I got an appointment with the editor and I pitched my books on my app and within a couple of days they offered to acquire my books, which was my dream come true. So anyway, that was a very long story for how self-publishing really is and how ultimately it really helped my dream come true.    Miko Lee: [00:13:08] Now your books are on this Scholastic book, fair Circuit, right?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:13:13] Yes, they are. Well, it’s actually just one book. They took the three books, which were everyday Words. Count in Mandarin and learn animals in Mandarin. They took all three books and they put them in one big compilation book, which is called My First Mandarin Words with Gordon & Li Li. So it’s a bigger book. It’s a bigger board book. Still very, very sturdy and it’s a great, starter book for any family because it has those three first themes that were the first themes that I taught my own boys, and I think. It just, it’s very natural for kids to want to learn how to count. animals were, and my kids were animal lovers, so I knew that that’s what would keep them interested in learning Mandarin because they actually loved the topic. So, yes, my first mandarin words with Gordon & Li Li does live on Scholastics big roster.   Miko Lee: [00:14:01] Fun. Your dream come true. I love it. Yeah. Thanks. And you were speaking earlier about your background in fashion design. Has there been any impact of your fashion design background on your voice as a children’s book author?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:14:14] I don’t know if my background as a fashion designer has had any impact on my voice. I think it’s had an impact on how I imagined my books and how I color my books and how I designed them because of working with, you know, color palettes and, and putting together collections I can visually see and, can anticipate. Because I have that background, I can kind of anticipate what a customer might want. And also, you know, speaking with people at my events and seeing what kids gravitate to, that also helps. But I think there’s so much more to being an author than just writing the books. You know, when I go to my events, I have a table display, I have setups, I have props, I have, I actually now have a, a small. Capsule of merchandise because I missed designing clothes. So I have a teeny collection of, you know, sweaters, hoodies, onesies, a tote bag, and plushies   Miko Lee: [00:15:04] they’re super cute by the way.    Michele Wong McSween: [00:15:06] Oh, thank you. So, you know, fashion has come in in different ways and I think having that background has really helped. kind of become who they are    Miko Lee: [00:15:17] Can you tell us about the latest book in the series, which is Gordon and Li Li All About Me. Can you tell a little bit about your latest?   Michele Wong McSween: [00:15:25] Gordon & Li Li All About Me is really, it’s, to me, it’s. I think my most fun interactive book because it really gets kids and parents up and out of their chairs, out of their seats and moving around. And you know, as a parent, I always would think about the kind of books that my kids would gravitate towards. What would they want to read and what as a parent would I want to read with my kids? Because really reading is all about connection with your kids. That’s what I loved about books is it gave me a way to connect with my kids. And so a book about body parts to me is just a really fun way to be animated and get up and move around and you can tickle and, and squeeze and shake it around and dance around. And, you know, having three boys, my house was just like a big energy ball. So I knew that this book would be a really fun one for families and I have two nieces and a nephew, and I now, they’re my new target market testers, and they just loved it. They had so much fun pointing to their body parts and the book ends with head, shoulders, knees, and toes in English and in Mandarin. And so of course. Every kid knows head, shoulders, knees, and toes in English. So we sing that. We get up, we point to our pottered parts, we shake it around, we dance around. And then the fun part is teaching them head, shoulders, knees, and toes in Mandarin because they’re already familiar with the song. It’s not scary to learn something in Mandarin. It just kind of naturally happens. And so I think the All About Me book is just a really fun way to connect with kids. I’ve actually launched it at a couple of events already and the response to the book has been overwhelming. I was at the Brooklyn Children’s Museum and even the president of the museum came and did the head shoulders. Knees and toes, songs with us. It was so much fun. Everybody was dancing around and having a great time. So I’m just really, really excited for people to pick up this book and really learn about the body. It’s, you know, body positivity, it’s body awareness, and it’s just a great way to connect with your kids.   Miko Lee: [00:17:31] So fun. I, I saw that you’re recently at the Asian American Book Con. Can you talk a little bit about that experience?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:17:38] Oh, that was great. That was the first of its kind and. I led the entire author segment of it. I would say individual authors. There were, there were, publishing companies that brought in their own authors, but I was responsible for bringing in the independent authors. And so I think we had about eight of us. There were Indian, Korean, Chinese, Taiwanese, and we all came together for this one really special day of celebrating our voices and lifting each other up. And there was so much energy and so much positivity in that event, and I. Actually was just thinking about reaching out to the organizers last year and seeing if we could maybe do, part two? So, I’m glad you brought that up. It was a really positive experience.    Miko Lee: [00:18:27] So we’re celebrating the end of Asian American Pacific Islander Native Hawaiian month. Can you tell us why this month is important to you?    Michele Wong McSween: [00:18:36] When you have something designated and set aside as, this is the month that we’re going to be celebrating Asian American Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander heritage all month long, I think it kind of perks up. People’s ears and they think, oh wow, this is a great opportunity for me to see what’s happening in my community. I think it just brings the awareness to. The broader community and ultimately the world. And I think when we learn about each other and each other’s cultures, it brings us closer together and makes us realize that we’re really not that different from each other. And I think when there are so many events happening now it peaks the interest of people in the neighborhood that might otherwise not know about it and it can, really bring us closer together as a community.   Miko Lee: [00:19:27] Michelle Wong McSween, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express. It’s great to hear more about you and about your latest book Gordon & Li Li and the entire series. Thank you so much.    Michele Wong McSween: [00:19:39] Thank you, Miko   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:40] Thank you all so much for joining us. I’m here with Gloria l Huang, author of Kaya of the Ocean. Thank you so much for joining us, Gloria.    Gloria Huang: [00:19:48] Oh, thanks so much for having me here.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:50] So first off, one question that we’re asking all of our guests on our show tonight is, who are your people? However you identify, you know, your community, your ancestors, and what legacy do you carry with you?    Gloria Huang: [00:20:01] Oh, that’s such a good question. So I am my heritage is Chinese. My parents were born in China and then grew up in Taiwan. And I myself was actually born in Canada. But then moved the states pretty young and and American Canadian dual citizen and now, but I, my heritage plays a lot into my. Kind of my worldview. It really shaped, how I grew up and how I saw things. And so it features very prominently in my writing and in my stories as you could probably tell from Kaya the ocean.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:20:34] Yes. And I love the book so much. It was such a    Gloria Huang: [00:20:37] thank you,    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:20:38] amazing read. And I’m also half Chinese and love the ocean. Just love the beach so much and have always felt such a connection with the water. I don’t wanna give away too much things about the book, but I was wondering if you could talk about your inspiration for writing it and a little bit about, setting and everything.   Gloria Huang: [00:20:56] Of course. So the inspiration for the book actually started I came up with the idea when the world was first emerging from the pandemic and I was seeing a lot of people obviously experiencing a lot of anxiety, but a lot of children very close to me in my life. And they were experiencing it for the first time, which was can be so difficult. I remember when it happened to me and there’s just this tendency to. Worry that there’s something wrong with you or that you’ve done something and you feel so alone. And so I remember standing by the ocean one night actually and thinking that I’d really love to write a book about a girl who is struggling with. The anxiety just to be able to send a message to all these kids that there’s nothing wrong with them. They’re not alone and really all parts of who they are. Even the parts they might not love so much are important parts of these amazing, beautiful, complicated people. They are. So that was the inspiration for that part of the story, the setting. I was very inspired. As you mentioned, the ocean is a huge inspiration to me. It actually comes into my mind, a lot of my stories and someone pointed that out once and I was like, you’re right, it does. And I think part of it is that I love the ocean. I love the beach. I love being there, but I’m also so in awe of this powerful thing that, you know, where we know so little about it. It is. There’s so much mystery to it. It can look so beautiful on the surface and be so dangerous underneath. I love it as a metaphor. I love it as a part of nature. So I think that was a huge part of why I wanted to incorporate that, especially because I think it also plays well into the metaphor for how some people experience anxiety and you can be calm on the surface, but so much is happening underneath.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:22:29] Absolutely. Yeah. Those interplay with each other and are metaphors for each other in such a beautiful way, mirror the experience. Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit more about anxiety and particular, as a young Asian American girl the cultural specificity of having anxiety as a young Asian American woman.    Gloria Huang: [00:22:46] Yes I definitely think it’s no coincidence. I think that anxiety often goes hand in hand with perfectionism and pressure and I, many people feel that kind of pressure, but certainly a young Asian girl especially with immigrant parents, will feel specific kind of pressure. And so I was really trying to portray that, Somebody once said to me, they were like, oh, I really like how Kaya on the surface seems so put together. She’s, got really good grades. She works really hard at school. She’s close to her parents, but there’s all this going on underneath. And I actually think that’s not unusual in terms of that experience for Asian American children of immigrants, and especially if you’re female I was really trying to. Tease that out. And then in addition I think there’s a tendency, and this might exist in other cultures as well, but in Asian culture, at least in my family history there’s a tendency not to really want to talk about mental health. There was a, there’s a joke in my family that my parents thought anything could be solved with good sleep and good nutrition, like anytime you had any problem. And I think that there is a, there’s a. resistance to feeling like your child can be struggling in a way you can’t help them. So I, really wanted to touch on that, part of the cultural pressures at play in kaya’s life.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:23:59] And you did so beautifully and it was very relatable, as a anxious Asian girly. And also just, the discussion of big feelings and somehow, having inklings that you may be more powerful than you even realize, but the kind of like emotions that come with that too.    Gloria Huang: [00:24:15] Yes. I think that’s a huge part of it is that like when you experience these huge feelings they feel powerful, know, in a negative way. But what I was really trying to get at was, there is also power in accepting these parts of yourself and realizing that They can make up this powerful being that you are, even if you might not love them in that moment.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:24:34] Yeah. I felt very seen by the book and I, couldn’t help but wonder wow, what would it have been like if I had read this when I was, 13 or 12 or kind of Closer to the age of the characters in the book.   Gloria Huang: [00:24:45] Thank you so much for saying that it actually means a lot because a lot of my motivation when I do write these books is to write for people who are either of that age or, wish they had a book like that at that age, which is also how I feel a lot about books nowadays and oh, I, I’m so glad that exists. I wish that had been around when I was that age.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:25:03] Yes. Were there any books that really set an example for you that either you read, maybe when you were, in the young adult. Age range or that you’ve read now as an adult where you’re like, okay, this is definitely the audience that I wanna be writing for.   Gloria Huang: [00:25:17] Definitely. I actually love this question ’cause I’m a big reader and so I love talking about books . When I was a kid, middle grade books were my gateway into my love of reading. So I still remember a lot of my favorite books, but I would say a recent book, it’s actually maybe not that recent now, it’s maybe a couple years old, but a book that really. Had an effect on the middle grade book was when you trap a tiger by Tae Keller and it explores. The kind of Korean experience, but also through the prism of kind of understanding generational grief. And it was just so beautifully done and really made an impact on me. So that was one recently that I thought was really powerful. And, I was like, this is an important book. This is definitely a book I would’ve loved as a child. When I was younger and I was reading books, there were three books that meant a lot to me. One was called the true confessions of Charlotte Doyle, and it was like a swashbuckling adventure story starring a girl, which was, at that time not very common. And it was, it meant, it was so earth shattering to me to be able to see a female character in that role. So that was great. There’s a book called. Homecoming by Cynthia Voigt. And it’s an adventure story and it also stars. The main character is a very strong female character and Tuck everlasting, which I just think is a beautiful book. It’s also female characters. Now I’m saying it out loud. They are all female main characters. And all about, existentialism and adventure and things that, it was important for me to see. Female characters exploring. But I did also wanna say that when I was reading middle grade books, some of my favorite books included a series called, babysitters Club, which I think that they’ve redone now as a graphic novel. And that was actually really important, not necessarily for the stories, but because there’s a character named Claudia Kishi who. Was a Japanese American character and she absolutely shattered the minds of, I think all kids that age were Asian descent and female in reading these books because there just wasn’t a character like her before that, she was so cool and artistic but she had immigrant parents and she had a sister who was very good at math and they didn’t get along and she loved junk food and she was. So incredibly nuanced and it was just not something that we saw back then. So that really inspired me, I think, to want to add to the diversity of voices. And thankfully there are many more diverse voices now than when I was reading.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:30] I love that. And I also feel like books that you read at that age, they stay with you forever.   Gloria Huang: [00:27:35] They really do.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:35] And they shape so much of like your worldview and your friendships. And I’m curious, ’cause I know the book was released this year in January. Mm-hmm. So what has it been like for you on your book tour and what’s been some other responses that you’ve heard? I.    Gloria Huang: [00:27:48] It’s been really great. It was so exciting to do the book launch and then just the amount of support from the writing community from, my, my kind of network, my agents and my publisher and editor. And also just readers. It’s been really great. But one thing I think I wasn’t expecting to love quite so much, not because I was expecting to not love it. I just said, it occurred to me that I would feel this way is getting feedback from, child readers is amazing because, I think as writers we love feedback no matter what. And if it’s positive feedback, that’s even better. But having a child reach out and as some of my friends will send a video of their. Children reacting to the book or they’ll, their, let their child type out a text messages and just to hear how the book hits with them and to hear their excitement or to hear that they were moved or to have them want to know what happens next. It meant so much to me because it was, they’re the target audience and to have them feel seen in that way was just, it’s just the ultimate kind of powerful feeling.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:28:51] That is so sweet. Oh my gosh. I can only imagine. And so you’re talking about the young readers. Yes. But I’m also curious if you have any advice or thoughts for young writers who might be wanting to share and get similar stories out to the world?   Gloria Huang: [00:29:05] Yeah I definitely do. And one of the. Experiences I’ve had that’s been great is I’ve been doing, some school visits and I go and I talk about the book, but I actually talk about the writing process. And when I do that, I really talk to the kids. As if they’re writers. The one of the first questions I ask is, hold up your hand. If you love writing or you think you want me, you might wanna be a writer someday. And a lot of hands go up and I tell them like, what the publishing process is, what are, the different genre options, what you might wanna consider, how you come up with an idea, how you sit down and write it, how you reach out to an agent. And I am surprised at how. Intensely, they’re hanging onto every word and they’re insightful questions after it. It shows me that a lot of them are really thinking about this. I think for one of the school visits, I remember someone held up her hand and she said what is the youngest age I. Someone has been able to be published. And I thought that was great. Because they’re so inspired and you can tell that, that they’re thinking for the first time this is a possibility. I have all kinds of advice during the school visits, the main piece of advice is really. Just that it can be a tough industry. writing is a very isolated process usually. There’s a lot of kind of obstacles and there’s a lot of gatekeeping. And so I tell ’em that the most important thing they can do is just keep pushing through and not to let any, setbacks stop them, because the ultimate goal is to reach even just one person.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:24] Absolutely. And what kind of advice do you give around learning how to hone your own voice and also having discipline when it comes to an artistic practice?   Gloria Huang: [00:30:33] Yeah, I think that’s such a great question. And I was gonna say this piece of advice is probably more for I. Older writers, but adult writers, I guess I should say. The one thing that I’ve really been thinking about having published a middle grade book is the very specific and unique experience of writing for middle grade audiences. I think a lot of my friends who write for older audience groups, young adults, adults, They have their own challenges, but one of the things that is different is when they’re writing, they are writing for the same target audience. That’s also the decision makers. So generally, adults and young adults are picking their own books, and they’re speaking to someone who will. Ultimately be the ones to pick up the books where when you’re writing for middle grade audiences they’re not usually the decision makers. at bookstores, they may or may not be in charge of which book they buy, in. Schools, usually it’s a librarian or a teacher. So in some ways you’re writing for one audience, but you’re also writing a subject matter that you’re hoping the decision makers will decide is worthy to put in front of your ultimate readers. So that’s one challenge. And then the other challenge is I think middle grade audiences are so. fascinating because they’re going through this amazingly unusual time in their lives, whether it’s eventful and there’s new experiences and that can be exciting, but also scary. So there’s a lot to mind in terms of topics, but they are also a mixture of being very sophisticated readers who are on the cusp of being teens. And so there’s a healthy dose of, skepticism, but they’re still young enough that they. Believe in magic, at least in the literary world. So you, there’s a lot of room to play with that. But they also. They sound different. They speak differently than adults. So it’s important to get the dialogue, for me I, turn to children in my life, including my own, just to do a check to make sure that the dialogue sounds authentic and something that, people, that kids would say. So a lot of thoughts there, but I think, I’ve been thinking a lot about middle grade and writing for middle grade, and what a unique experience it is.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:32:26] Yeah, that’s such a good point about the decision maker and having the multiple audiences, and I’m sure sometimes the decision makers are reading the books too, right? Or reading it with their kids or what have you. For your personal writing practice, are there any upcoming projects that you can share with us? And how do you stay inspired for what I imagine is like the long haul of writing something.    Gloria Huang: [00:32:45] I’m happiest when I have like several projects in the pipeline. So as soon as I am done a book or it’s, outta my hands, it’s with my agents or my editors. I’m looking to write another book. And I think sometimes I probably overwhelm my amazing book before agents. ’cause I’m like, I’m ready to start another story. And they’re like, we’re still looking at the book you just sent us. But I, that’s very much how. I am happiest. I would definitely say that everybody finds their own rhythm. I’m in some writers groups and some people are incredibly fast drafters and just need multiple projects at a time. And some people are like, no, I need to work on one project and I need to have it to perfection and I’m gonna work on it for a year or two. And I think whatever works for the individual artist, I think is the best kind of process for them. But yes, for me it’s very much about having multiple projects. I think I’m most inspired when I have different projects going at the same time. finding your own rhythm, I think is my advice.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:33:40] kaya of the ocean has, strong themes and storylines about, myths, mythology, Chinese mythology, and goddesses. I’m curious if you wanna talk any more about that and then also if that shows up in any of the other projects you’re working on    Gloria Huang: [00:33:54] Yes, the Chinese mythological water goddess that features. Pretty prominently in Kaya of the Ocean is Matsu. And I find her to be such a fascinating character. She is a real goddess who’s worshiped still in Asia. I think. Fishermen often will, pray to her for safe passage when they go out on the water. And my father told me about her when I was younger he told me like the side stories and I thought that was really interesting. But it was only when I started thinking about this book that I thought, I’d love to, I’d love to incorporate her. I hadn’t heard about her too much in, in the fictional world, even though I knew she was still like a revered goddess. But I thought it was so cool that she was this strong. I. Strong female figure in a space that didn’t always have that, hundreds of years ago. And so I dove into her story a little bit and found out, the story is that she was once a human child who loved to read and then she was afraid of swimming in water until she was older and then she drowned, saving, trying to save some relatives and it was interesting ’cause I’d already started plotting out Kaya and writing Kaya. And so much of her story wove easily into what I had already come up with. Like there, I think she has two sidekicks that were one time enemies that she, made into her friends and I’d already had Kaya written with two friends, Naomi and Ana. So I, there was just so much that I felt was kismet. And it was really fun to be able to weave that story together and fictionalize it. But I think it was also meaningful for me to be able to do that because. When I was younger, I loved reading Greek mythology. the stories are beautiful and they’ve been redone in beautiful ways, but it definitely was an area where I didn’t necessarily see myself reflected. As part of my goal to add to the diversity of voices, I really wanted to feature Chinese mythology and bring those stories in so that. Kids can either see themselves reflected in those stories and or understand a new kind of set of mythology and learn about a new culture.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:35:46] Yes. I’m so glad you put it that way because it is, it’s such a privilege to have access to, our own I. Cultural stories and knowledge through these, like fun and modern interpretations. Definitely. So I’m so glad that this can provide that.    Gloria Huang: [00:36:00] Oh, thank you. I did realize I didn’t answer your other question, which is does it feature my other works? Which so I have sold another middle grade novel and I’m, it’s not announced yet. I’m hoping to announce it soon. And I have some other. Books. I’m working on a young adult novel so far. They have not featured Chinese mythology, but I do definitely have a type that my most of my books tend to be contemporary settings, but with elements of speculative. Fantasy, just like the light touch of that and sometimes a little bit of historical elements as well. So they, they definitely all have that similar motif, but so far chi of the ocean is the only one to feature a Chinese mythological goddess.   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:36:43] Thank you so much for sharing that. I love that. And I really love the relationship that Kaya had with her two friends and just and then also like the cousin that comes and just capturing like the banter amongst, amongst the girls.    Gloria Huang: [00:36:56] Thank you so much. that was really important to me, I think because at the stage that Kaia is in her life the loves of her life really are her two friends, Naomi and Ana, and they feature very prominently in how she learns to cope with her anxiety and her symptoms of anxiety. And so I really, I think that I really wanted to center her their friendship as much as possible. So I’m I’m glad that you saw it that way too.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:37:19] Yeah. And I feel like, I mean, it truly is the most important relationship. And so it’s nice when works of fiction and yeah, works of fiction, can reflect that in such a beautiful way. I know you mentioned that you have daughters or have children?    Gloria Huang: [00:37:32] I do, yes. I have a son and a daughter. And my daughter actually was quite involved because when I first started writing Kaya, I think she was exactly of the age that she would be the target reader group. And so she actually helped Beta read it. She provided a lot of feedback. She became like a cheerleader. She was definitely involved in the process and I think that was really exciting for her. my son became of the reading age once it came out, so he reads it and he’s a big fan too,   Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:00] that’s so sweet. I love that your daughter was part of the editing process too. That’s amazing.    Gloria Huang: [00:38:04] Yeah. Yeah. She loves writing and always says she wants to be a writer herself, so it was really special that she got to be part of this and see it up close.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:13] Oh wow. Do you think you would do any collaborative projects with her in the future?   Gloria Huang: [00:38:16] It’s so funny that you say that. She always suggests that. And then sometimes they’ll actually start a Google doc and they’ll say, let’s write a story together. And we all have, of course, very different writing styles. And then at some point they both actually usually just start reading what I’m writing. And at that point I’m like, this is not collaborative. You have to write as well. So we’ve had a couple of false starts, but that’s always a joke that we’re gonna do that together.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:38:39] that’s so sweet. What else is upcoming for you? I know this is, Asian American and native Hawaiian Pacific Islander month right now, and the episode will come out towards the end of May. So if there’s anything else coming up from you for this month or for June or the summer. Yeah. We’d love to hear what you have going on.    Gloria Huang: [00:38:57] Oh, yeah. Today actually Kaya’s audio book was released people can listen to it. It was narrated by this amazing, narrator, Cindy K. And so anywhere you find audio books is available. And that was really cool. I’ve listened to a little bit of it and you, when you write, you hear the words in your head one way, and then it’s amazing to hear like another artist do their take on it. So that’s really cool. I will be at the Bay Area book Festival at the end of the month of May. There. Doing like different panels and I’ll be on a panel. it’s about Fantastical Worlds. I’m really excited about that. hopefully we’ll be able to announce this other book soon. As you, you may know publishing is a very long lead time it will be a while before it’s released, but I think the hope is to release it during, a API month as well just not this year. And working on a young adult novel that hopefully we can go on submission with at some point. But it’s an exciting time for sure.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:39:51] Wow, that does sound so exciting. I can’t wait to hear about your new projects and to continue to read the work that you put out into the world. Is there anything else that you’d like to discuss or talk about?   Gloria Huang: [00:40:01] I think just to say a thank you to you for, having me on here and reading Kaya of the Ocean and really anyone who’s been interested in joining Kaya and her friends on their journey. It’s just, it’s so amazing, I think, to create these characters that become real to you, and then have them become real to other people. I don’t have the words to describe how meaningful it is to me, but thank you.    Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:40:24] Thank you for letting us join into the world of Kaya for a little bit ’cause it was very fun and healing and all of the amazing things. And thanks so much for joining us today on Apex Express.    Gloria Huang: [00:40:36] For sure. Thanks so much.   Miko Lee: [00:40:38] Welcome, Andrea Wang, award-winning children’s book author to Apex Express.    Andrea Wang: [00:40:43] Thank you, Miko. I’m so happy to be here.    Miko Lee: [00:40:46] Happy to have you. I’d love to start first with a personal question, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   Andrea Wang: [00:40:57] My people are from China. My mother’s family belonged to an ethnic minority, called the Haka or the Kaja people, and she and her siblings were. A military family, and we’re each born in a different province. And when the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949, they went to Taiwan where she grew up and immigrated to the United States in 1965 or 1966. My father’s family are from Guangdong Province, and so I’m Cantonese on that side, although I don’t speak any Cantonese. And he went to Hong Kong after the Chinese Civil War. So I am the daughter of Chinese immigrants, second generation Chinese American.    Miko Lee: [00:42:01] And what legacy do you carry with you?   Andrea Wang:[00:42:03]  I carry the legacy of their stories, both the ones that I know and the ones that I don’t know yet.    Miko Lee: [00:42:12] Ooh. It sounds like there’s lots of juicy things for you still to discover. That is fun.    Andrea Wang: [00:42:16] Yes.    Miko Lee: [00:42:17] Today we’re talking about your new book, watercress, can you share what the audience, what the book is about, and then what is your inspiration for this book?    Andrea Wang: [00:42:25] So the book is about a Chinese American girl who is growing up in rural Ohio and her parents spot watercress growing in a ditch by the side of the road, and they immediately pull over and make her enter older brother, get out of the car and get down into the ditch with them and collect this. Vegetable, but to her it’s a weed. And so when they serve it to her and her family at dinner, she really is unhappy about this and. For her, picking food out of a ditch has a really different meaning than it does to her parents who survived a lot of hardship in China. And it’s not until her mom tells her a story about her childhood growing up in China and spoiler alert, loses a sibling to the famine that the girl begins to understand and better appreciate her parents, her culture, and her heritage.   Miko Lee: [00:43:29] And the inspiration for this book.    Andrea Wang: [00:43:32] So the inspiration is largely my own life. this is a semi autobiographical story. The memory of picking watercress by the side of the road was just something that I couldn’t forget, I don’t know why this memory continued to haunt me into adulthood. And then after my mom passed away, I started writing down, memories and stories of being with my family in order to maintain a connection to her. When I wrote this, at first it was a personal essay and it just wasn’t working. I would put it away and I would occasionally take it out and I would put it away and take it out and work on it again. And it wasn’t until I decided to pursue writing for young people that I completely changed the manuscript from a personal essay into a picture book. But at that point it still wasn’t working. It was in third person and it wasn’t very personal It took me several more years to figure out the heart of the story for me. So it was largely based on my own memories and my mother’s childhood stories that she shared with me.   Miko Lee: [00:44:39] Can you share more about the power of memory and the artistic process? ’cause you’ve written many books and in different genres as well, but can you talk a little bit more about memory and its impact on your work?   Andrea Wang: [00:44:52] Yeah, that’s a great question. I tend to write primarily for myself. And to figure out how I felt about certain experiences, how they’ve changed me, to try and process things I feel like I remember a lot about my childhood. parts of it are very vivid and I like to go back to those. Moments that have stuck with me all these years and explore what it means to me. Like I’m just very curious about why I remember certain things watercress was largely my way of processing my childhood feelings of shame about my family and my culture. I have leaned into that and am still writing stories about identity and the struggle to find our identity. Memory has a lot to do with it. I put myself in every single book.    Miko Lee: [00:45:45] Ooh, that’s so interesting. And you’re talking a little bit about shame and overcoming that. I’m wondering if you could speak more on, if you feel like memories hold the power to heal.    Andrea Wang: [00:45:56] I firmly believe that memories hold the power to heal. I think that writing watercress and talking about these feelings has really helped me, , heal from, that sort of trauma of not feeling like I belonged as a kid and also that I may have been. Not the nicest kid to my parents, not the most filial, right? And so writing this story was, as I say in the author’s note, sort of an apology and a love letter to my parents. So it’s been very healing and healing to hear about from all the. People who have read the book and had it resonate with them, the things that they regretted in their lives and hoped to, heal as well.    Miko Lee: [00:46:42] Oh, have you heard that story a lot from adult readers?   Andrea Wang: [00:46:46] I have. They will often tell me about the things that their parents did that embarrassed them. A lot of foraging stories, but also stories about, relatives and ancestors who were sharecroppers or indigenous peoples. And it’s just been fascinating how many people connect to the story on different levels. There is that theme of poverty. I think recognizing. That’s not often talked about in children’s books, I think makes people feel very seen.   Miko Lee: [00:47:14] Yeah. That feeling of shame is really showcased by the illustrator Jason Chin. I mean your young you character kind of has a grumpy look on their face. And it was just so fun. Even in the book notes, Jason Chin, the illustrator, writes about how he combined both the western and eastern style of art, but also his similar cross-cultural background. I’m wondering when you very first saw the artwork and this was kind of young you did anything surprise you by it?    Andrea Wang: [00:47:42] I mean, it’s amazing, gorgeous artwork and I was really struck by how he dealt with the flashbacks because when I sold this manuscript, I. Had no idea how an illustrator would deal with how interior it is and, , and how they would tackle those flashbacks. And there’s one spread where on the left hand side of the page, it shows the main character’s current time and then it morphs across the gutter of the book into. The moms past and her childhood memories in China, and it was just exquisite is really the only way to describe it. It was, it’s just brilliant, and amazing. We don’t, as picture book authors typically get to work with our illustrators. We often do not have contact with them through the making of a picture book. But in this case. Our editors said since it was such a personal story for me, that he, , felt that Jason and I should collaborate. And so I provided photos, family photos, photos of Ohio, lots of different, , source materials to Jason and would talk to him about the feelings that young me in the book went through. And so the fact that, he was able to take all of that and put it on the page, it was just. Spectacular.    Miko Lee: [00:49:01] Oh, that’s so fun. I also understand that you love mythical creatures as you I, and one of your children’s books is the Nian Monster, which I love. I’m wondering what is your favorite mythical creature and why?   Andrea Wang: [00:49:15] I. Have been sort of fascinated with the qilin, the, or they call it the Chinese unicorn. Right. Although it looks very different from what we think of a, a European unicorn looks like. Yes. And I think it’s because they’re supposed to be this really benevolent, creature and Have all sorts of powers and I would love to do more research about the qilin and, you know, incorporate that into a book someday.   Miko Lee: [00:49:42] Ooh, fun. Next book. I love it. you have so many books and I’m really curious about your upcoming book Worthy about Joseph Pierce. I love these as Helen Zia talks about these. MIH moments that are missing in history. And Joseph Pierce was the highest ranking Chinese American man who fought in the Civil War. Some people might recognize this picture of this Chinese American guy in a kind of civil war, uniform. Can you tell us one, when is the book being released and a little bit more about it?    Andrea Wang: [00:50:11] Sure. The book is being released on September 9th, 2025, and it is. A picture book, which we typically think of as for younger readers, but it is 64 pages. So you know, it’s an all ages picture book. I think my editor and I would like to say, and it is the story of a Chinese boy born in the, First half of the 18 hundreds in China in Guangdong province, and was sold by his father to an American ship captain named Amos Peck. the reasons for that are, lost to time, right? He left no primary sources behind, there was so much going on in China at the time. Famine war, you know, all of these, Difficult things that his father probably sold him in order to keep the rest of the family alive and as well as give him the opportunity to have a better life. And he did end up in Connecticut. He was raised with the captain’s, siblings and sent to school and treated almost like a member of the family except for the fact that he was. Clearly Chinese and there were very few Chinese people in, Connecticut at that time. he joined the Union Army when he came of age and was able to leverage his service into gaining citizenship, which really people of color, weren’t really able to do successfully back then. And so. He gained a citizenship. He married, he had a family. He was able to own property and accomplish all these amazing things. Sort of right before the Chinese exclusion Act was, enacted. So he was a very brave guy.    Miko Lee: [00:51:45] It’s a wild story and you sent me on a little bit of a rabbit hole, which is fun. Just, looking at Ruth Ann, McCune’s. historical piece that there were 10 different Chinese American men in the Civil War, but he was exceptional because he rose to such high ranks. And I just think it’s so interesting that, in the 1880 census, he registered as Chinese. But then after the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, he listed his race as Japanese in the 1890 census. but he was racialized as white so that he could buy property and everything. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about that, like talk about code switching? He like literally changed his race,    Andrea Wang: [00:52:26] right. And people at that time could not tell the difference. Similar to now, people often can’t tell different Asian, ethnicities apart. Right. I found actual newspaper articles where Joseph Pierce was interviewed about the battles, that the United States was having with Japan or the battles that Japan was having. He was asked his opinion on what the Japanese government was doing because he told these reporters he was Japanese and that was really the only clue that I had that he, Was code switching that after the Chinese exclusion Act was passed, he felt like he needed to protect himself and his family and he must have cut off his cue because otherwise, you know, that would’ve identified him immediately as Chinese. So that went into the book. I think it’s a powerful moment, right, where he’s doing what he has to do to survive and ensure his protection and his family’s safety,   Miko Lee: [00:53:25] You have a, a really interesting background. Just having No really, I mean, having done all these different things and I, you know, I think you have a science background too, right? Can you talk about the times that we’re living in right now, the political times that we’re living in, where our government is banning books that don’t align with certain conservative ideologies, where right now certain words are forbodden suddenly. And can you talk a little bit about how that impacts you as a children’s book author?    Andrea Wang: [00:53:59] it is very disheartening and discouraging that the current climate is against, people who look like me or other people of color. And as a children’s book author, we are experiencing a huge decrease in the number of teachers and librarians who are asking us to come and visit schools, to talk to students, which is horrible because. These young people are the ones who need to learn from books, right? Knowledge is power. And if we are not keeping them informed, then we are doing them a disservice. I think the attacks on our freedom to read are really unjust. and. personally as an author of color, I understand that books like Worthy may end up on some of these banned book lists because it does talk about racism. but these are the stories that we need now, and I’m going to continue writing these stories about the Hidden History, And to talk about these difficult subjects that I think kids understand on some level. but if they’re not reading about it in books, then it’s hard to spark a conversation with, educators or adults about it. So I think these books that I’m writing, that many of my friends and other children’s book authors are writing are providing that. Sort of gateway to talk about, the topics that are so important right now.    Miko Lee: [00:55:29] Thank you so much for sharing, and thank you so much for being on Apex Express today. We appreciate your voice and the work that you’re putting out there in the world. Is there anything else you’d like to say?   Andrea Wang: [00:55:39] you know, there’s so much to say, I think just to. Stand up for what we all believe in and to, I encourage people to stand up for their intellectual freedom and that of their children.   Miko Lee: [00:55:56] Thank you, Andrea Wang. I appreciate hearing from you and hearing your voice and seeing your work out there in the world.    Andrea Wang: [00:56:03] Thank you so much, Miko. It was a pleasure.   Miko Lee: [00:56:05] Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preti Mangala-Shekar, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tanglao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.   The post APEX Express – 5.29.25 AAPI Children’s Books appeared first on KPFA.