In the latest episode of The Money Reckoning series, I speak with a next-gen wealth holder about the uncomfortable journey of questioning privilege and purpose.
THE IMPACT. Patrick Knodel:
Is the founder of impact investing fund Innovation for Impact
Is the CEO of the philanthropic Chancemaker Foundation
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
Working for purpose and not for money. "I want to feel useful for the world, not just for myself. Let's be honest, in the current system, the best paid jobs are the ones that ruin the world. That's a systemic problem at the moment."
Next gen wealth. "The baseline is always how can you keep the wealth in your family over generations? That's the bottom line. The standard is: can we accumulate and keep it? There's not even a question whether that's a good thing to do. That's just a given."
"I only have one life. There is an exchange between time and additional accumulation of money. "
The inner fight. "How much do I wanna accumulate, to provide a safety net for my own family. And to what extent do I just wanna spend my time working so that it doesn't happen."
Planning for the future. "You can have all those scenarios, own property and land in different parts of the world that you can reach anytime. And that's what rich people do. Do I want to be like that? No. Let's work really hard toward community and togetherness, so this doesn't happen."
Wealth redistribution. "Climate change, biodiversity loss. You go to the root cause then you have to talk about wealth and about wealth distribution, and nobody who really looks at the world from an outside perspective without taking his own privileged position can deny that the accumulation of wealth is the main root cause of all our problems."
This podcast is part of the Money Reckoning series.
THE IMPACT. Kazu Haga:
Is a trainer, educator, student and practitioner with over 25 years of experience in nonviolence and restorative justice.
Weaves in lessons from decades of Buddhist practice and trauma healing work to advance social change and collective healing.
Is a core member of the Fierce Vulnerability Network, a founding member of the Ahimsa Collective, a Jam facilitator and author of the books Healing Resistance and Fierce Vulnerability.
Teaches nonviolence, conflict reconciliation, restorative justice, organizing and mindfulness in prisons and jails, schools, faith communities and activist movements.
Has worked on the gift economy for over 15 years. I particularly recommend his Substack, and the article about how the “gift economy is not free.”
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
Early influences
”Depending on the causes and conditions in our lives, we could be so many different people. We could be Trump supporters, we could be prison guards, we could be an incarcerated person… just based on just the factors in our lives.“
Big questions
“The point isn't to figure it out. The point is to just be with the question, and have faith that at some point, if we listen deep enough, we'll be guided to the most skillful next step. And that's perhaps all we need to know.”
The healing work of nonviolence
“ What would happen if, in a nonviolent direct action, instead of yelling and chanting, we held a public grief ritual for everyone to witness? What would happen if, instead of leading with our anger, we led with our heartbreak?”
Fierce vulnerability
“Can we have the spiritual maturity and the capacity to really see the world for what it is and to not collapse under the weight of it?”
“The amount of spiritual energy that it takes to constantly suppress a deeper truth that I think all of us are feeling that something is so deeply wrong with our society … it is sapping us. You see the impact, the mental health epidemics, the depression, the sense of isolation. We're constantly using our energy to, to live in this delusion of everything's fine. Don't look, don't look.”
Spaces safe enough to look at the reality of this moment
“ In a lot of the spaces that I facilitate, we do this activity where we do like check-ins and the first prompt is, how are you doing? And then the second prompt is, how are you really doing? And then the third prompt is, how are you really, really doing? We so rarely have an opportunity to slow down enough, just to say, how am I actually doing, in the midst of post pandemic and war and genocide and polarization and the rise of authoritarianism, and ecological collapse?”
Reckoning with capitalism
”People are slowly realizing more and more how unsustainable the capitalist system is. Those are scary moments. Because capitalism is all we've ever known. A lot of us believe that if capitalism fails, there'll be complete lawlessness. So just to create space for people to be with that fear, let them know that the fear is real, it's legitimate. And at some point I think there'll be openness to hear that there are other ways that we can organize society.”
The gift economy
“The gift economy is one way to really imagine: how do we share resources, distribute resources, manage our shared resources in a way that understands that we are a communal species. It's not through individualism and competition and hoarding that we thrive. We are at our best when we are communal.”
“It’s not about how do I make more money so that I can thrive, but how do I make less money so that I have time to invest in the relationships that will really help me thrive?”
Running an organization on the gift economy
“ I started a nonprofit. We barely did any fundraising. We barely worked with foundations and somehow managed to become sustainable. Partly because we're committed to simple living. But so many things happened that gave me a sense this could work.”
I have been writing The Money Reckoning blog, untangling money at work, following a groundbreaking team change how they pay themselves.
I didn’t expect that I’d be tested.
I was recently asked to “value my time.”
I've been questioning transactional vs gift nonviolent approaches.
Before, I would have responded with a rate.
Now, here’s a chance to actually try something different. But what, and how?
So I turned to a mentor, Roni Wiener, a brilliant nonviolent facilitator, who is walking the talk – moving from highly-paid consulting to offering their work as a gift – and sustaining much of their life through gifts.
I was fascinated – how would that even work?
So I asked Roni for a call, and we recorded our conversation.
Follow The Money Reckoning blog series.
Watch the video interview with Roni here.
THE IMPACT. Roni Wiener teaches groups to make decisions that care for everyone, on transforming collaboration and in partnership with nonviolence organizations like NGL.
THE JOURNEY. Roni has moved from highly-paid consulting in the traditional capitalist model to offering their work as a gift – and sustaining their life with gifts.
Here are the lessons I learned from Roni about the critical steps toward working in a gift economy:
We’re not in a gift economy – but we might be preparing
“We cannot actually operate in a gift economy, it is not possible for us to have enough access to gifts to meet needs.”
In an exchange culture, money is needed, but money is not a need
“Technically, money is not a need. What I really need is food and housing. You could gift me food to care for me. Sadly, our culture is not set up that way.”
Knowing my audience: where and who matters
“Sometimes it just doesn't make sense. At the local grocery store, I'm not going to start a conversation with them about: are you willing to gift me the groceries?”
Before talking to a client, I need to talk to myself
“It really helps to have that clarity, because the conversation might already be uncomfortable because we're talking about money, or because we're talking about quite a change from the mainstream.”
Getting to numbers – knowing my limits
“Am I willing to receive zero? Is that an option? Hold clear limits. Otherwise, you may appear open to receiving nothing – that leads to friction and conflict.”
Getting to numbers – not my value, but my needs
“I'm not interested in ‘how much is my time worth’? I'm interested in ‘what would be sustainable for me to be able to offer this time as a gift to you?’”
Getting to numbers – not yes or no, but getting creative
“With one organization, their financial situation fluctuates. This didn’t come from me, they proposed it: what if we just look at the end of every month, and we just send you what we have left? Let's try it and see. I don't even know how much money that's gonna be. It was a complete mystery.”
Getting to numbers – my tolerance for risk
“ These are real consequences if we are not able to pay for things we have committed to paying, like housing. Really think through and not overstretch.”
Find the right amount of stretch
“If you try to do too much too fast, and you end up not receiving enough money, you may get discouraged with the whole thing. And then you just stop trying.”
De-linking giving and receiving
“In a true gift economy, there is no link between gifting and receiving. I would gift you something, and receive from somewhere, not from you. That's not possible yet. I'm working to make that link less strong.”
Connecting to my privilege and class status
“Privilege in some ways makes it easier to have these experiments, because you have financial resources to lean on. And in some ways it's harder, because you're so used to leaning on money as a solution to all problems.”
This shift is a lifelong project
“ It's a big transition. This touches so many things: scarcity thinking; getting reconnected with generosity, with trust in life; increasing our risk tolerance; engaging with our addiction to comfort.”
THE IMPACT. Elspeth Jones:
- Is a non-profit leader, advisor and coach at the intersection of law, leadership and environmental and social impact.
- Was born and grew up Wales, is a Welsh speaker, and now lives in Wales with her family, where she enjoys going on adventures and exploring the outdoors.
- Initially practiced as a barrister in London and in law firms in Ghana, Hong Kong and Shanghai.
- Most recently, was Deputy CEO at the environmental law NGO, ClientEarth, using the power of the law to drive systemic change.
- Was Executive Director of the climate change and sustainable development charity Size of Wales.
- Was a trustee for the Sumatran Orangutan Society, and is currently a trustee at the Esmee Fairbarn Foundation.
- Now has her own advisory called Wild Counsel, where she supports those working at the critical intersection of law and environmental and social change with thought partnership
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THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- The evolution of what the law is for: From traditional commercial law to using law for environmental impact, from focus on clients' interests to representing the planet and ecosystems.
- Organizational growth and leadership: The challenges of scaling a nonprofit like Client Earth, balancing freedom and creativity with coordination, governance, and risk management, and the leadership challenges in guiding a growing team of lawyers.
- The complexities of measuring impact: How to assess success in systemic change when outcomes are often indirect or long-term, and the challenge of defining impact in a field where wins are not always immediately visible.
- Lessons from failure and loss: How losing cases can still drive progress by sparking critical conversations and shifting mindsets around the law and environmental responsibility.
- The mycelium in her new role: The importance of creating resilient networks and support structures within the legal and nonprofit ecosystems, and exploring the role of coaching, mentoring, and peer learning to amplify collective impact.
I recently completed a 3-day training with Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project, where 1000 people came together to train and mobilize toward a net zero future. I didn’t quite know what to expect, but two things stand out: 1) being faced with all the facts is intense and overwhelming, there’s no shortage of data on the challenges or on the solutions; 2) to process the intense overwhelm, we need spaces and tools to make sense of the pain and the possibility. So I was thankful that the project leaders put me in touch with Liliane, a climate-aware consultant and trauma-informed facilitator.
THE IMPACT. Liliane Mavridara:
-is a Climate Reality Leader, a Climate Cafe Facilitators trainer with CPA-NA, a Climate For Health Ambassador
-synthesizes an eclectic cultural, educational and interdisciplinary background with hands-on professional expertise in transpersonal psychology, personal and spiritual development, women’s empowerment, mind-body health, and planetary health
-consults and educates on the impact of the climate emergency on community holistic health and wellbeing, and leads peer support circles that nurture relational and social capacity for sense making and purposeful co-transformation of our complex polycrisis
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
-Climate overwhelm: "We don’t have a solution problem; we have a nervous system coregulation challenge"
-Community connection: "Connecting back to our cultural roots, creating spaces where people can come together, is the most healing thing we can offer as a service to humanity"
-Reconnecting to what matters: "We don't want to live on a miserable planet. We are here to enjoy life, our environment, our friends, our families."
I’ve noticed that activism is having a moment in places I was not used to seeing it - inside companies. Back in my corporate days, I kept your head down and did my activism at home. Serial rebel Tessa Wernink has been shaking things up since co-founding Fairphone. I met her in her new role at The Undercover Activist. We get deep into employee activism: the dissonance about staying in a job and staying true to values, the role of power, and activism as a spiritual practice.
THE IMPACT. Tessa Wernink:
-leads The Undercover Activist, an education and research platform that coaches and emboldens young professionals to take constructive action to change their organisations from within
-was part of the founding team of Fairphone, turning a campaign for fairer electronics into an impact-driven business model
-is co-founder and host of the podcast series, What If We Get It Right?
-studied English Literature and International Development, Journalism, Deep Democracy, Non-Violent Resistance and Communications
-grew up in Hong Kong, and now lives in Amsterdam with her partner and their three boys
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
-Tessa’s international upbringing: “there is more than one truth”
-Starting Fairphone: a rebel questioning systems
-Roots of The Undercover Activist: action research, a learning hub
-Befriending conflict: “resistance is the energy, not the enemy”
-The dissonance: “Should I stay in this job and try to kind of be that person I want to be”
-A learning journey: knowing our rights, safe spaces to be uncomfortable, making it personal
-Activism and power: the “power shadow” of leaders, “do we need power to have influence?”
-Activism as a spiritual practice: “how we get there is where we’ll arrive”
What do you get when you cross a bestselling novelist with a masters in regenerative economics and a healthy dose of shamanic practice? This fascinating conversation with the brilliant Manda Scott, creator of Accidental Gods and the Thrutopia Masterclass.
THE IMPACT. Manda Scott:
- Has been, variously, a veterinary surgeon, veterinary anaesthetist, acupuncturist (people and animals), crime writer, columnist, blogger, economist, and author
- Teaches shamanic dreaming, creative writing and concept-based dog training
- Is the bestselling author of many books, including the Boudica series, and most recently of the upcoming thrutopia novel Any Human Power, to be released in 2024
- Created Accidental Gods, a podcast and membership program for people and ideas at the edge of regenerative change
- Teaches the Thrutopia Masterclass for writers to create inspiring stories that shape our futures
- Holds a Masters in Regenerative Economics from Schumacher College
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- A different childhood. How a unique upbringing on a rehabilitation center for birds of prey in rural Scotland meant that “being normal was never an option”
- A spiritual journey. As a young child, getting curious about pre-Roman shamanic cultures of her land
- Listening. Asking “what do you want of me?” and following the answer, creating Accidental Gods
- Writing Thrutopia. Writing a future beyond capitalism and extraction, challenging the publishing world
- What are we here for? Not to pay bills and die. What something new and different could look like
For any of us working in sustainability, land guardianship is crucial to climate action. Yet the ways to support stewards of the land - Indigenous peoples and local communities - are not obvious. I learned so much from Nonette Royo from the Tenure Facility: she grew up seeing violence and land grabs in her home in the Philippines, and became a human rights lawyer to protect the protectors of land.
THE IMPACT. Nonette Royo:
- Is a human rights and environment lawyer, committed to supporting the aspirations of Indigenous and local peoples and helping forest communities protect their people and land
- Is currently Executive Director at The International Land and Forest Tenure Facility, an organization focused on securing land and forest rights for Indigenous Peoples and local communities
- Gave a TED talk on why Indigenous forest guardianship is crucial to climate action
- Has over 30 years experience advising funds dedicated to Indigenous Peoples and local communities in forest and climate programmes
- Co-founded and led the Samdhana Institute and set up several NGOs focusing on advancing Indigenous Peoples and women’s legal rights, helping design and implement funding portfolios for local communities and Indigenous Peoples in the global south
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Origins of Nonette’s life and work in the Philippines: a "land of promise" and broken promises
- Becoming a lawyer and the challenge for Indigenous communities: traditions that don’t believe in land ownership in a capitalist system that demands deeds and titles
- Bringing alternative law solutions to bridge the two worlds: through basic human rights, ancestral domain law, and Indigenous People’s Collective Titles
- The hardest part of this work: bringing communities together to heal stories and land
- The key to climate change: land rights in conversation with stewards of the land
As always, send any feedback and ideas to impactjourneypodcast at gmail dot com.
What did it take to start a first-of-its-kind sustainable business section at The Guardian? And why leave the big city life to live in a monastic community? Journalist Jo Confino describes his journey from covering finance and business to the next frontier in this time of crisis: mindfulness, compassion, feeling our suffering. As the podcast Jo hosts says: the way out is in.
THE IMPACT. Jo Confino:
- Bridges many worlds: executive coach, facilitator, journalist, and sustainability expert.
- Was Executive Editor of What's Working at HuffPo, executive editor of The Guardian and chairman and editorial director of Guardian Sustainable Business
- Is a Partner at Leaders’ Quest, partnered with UN Development Programme on a consciousness and systems change initiative, and sits on the Boards of various climate organizations.
- Is a mindfulness advocate, has worked closely with Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh and his monastic community in France Plum Village, and now hosts their podcast The Way Out Is In.
- Gained his MSc in Responsibility and Business Practice at the University of Bath.
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Early influences: the desire to make sense of the world
- Changing things at the edge: how he did that at Guardian Sustainable Business
- The next edge for anyone working on the climate and social crises: consciousness
- What does climate have to do with mindfulness: getting personal, feeling the feelings
- The wisdom of Thich Nhat Hanh: connecting to our own suffering and the suffering of the world
- The thousands of choices we can make every day
Since I've joined the board of Action Against Hunger, I've been on a learning journey. How big of a deal is the global food crisis? Why hasn't it been solved? What can we do about global hunger? Of course, my preferred way to learn is to call up experts and together explore tough questions on the podcast.
THE IMPACT.
- Cathryn Dhanatya, PhD, works at the intersection of health and research and advocacy, and sits on the Advisory Board of Action Against Hunger. She leads Growing Good, was the Chief Scientific Administrative Officer for Stand Up To Cancer, and held leadership research positions at UCLA and USC.
- Michelle Brown has a career in advocacy and development. After many years as the UN representative for Refugees International, she is now the Associate Director of Advocacy for Action Against Hunger.
- Get more information on the work of Action Against Hunger and support via my fundraising page.
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Influences: what led both Cathryn and Michelle to work in international development and advocacy
- Listening to communities: getting close means learning as much as helping
- Hunger: there isn't a lack of food; there is a lack of distribution that's fair and equitable
- Proximity: understanding hunger close to home and around the world, and how all of it affects us
- Beyond hunger: not just about food, it's about access to health, clean water, education, livelihoods and income
- The climate crisis: and how it is inextricably linked to the hunger crisis
- Systemic change: transferring power to local communities
In my attempts to connect with people on some of our most important issues like climate change, I have been missing a huge pathway - faith. These issues need hard conversations, and hard conversations need us to tap into more than facts and fears. My conversation with Dekila opens the door to bringing the sacred back into science.
THE IMPACT. Dekila Chungyalpa:
- is the founder and director of the Loka Initiative, an interdisciplinary capacity building and outreach platform at the University of Wisconsin - Madison for faith leaders and culture keepers of Indigenous traditions who work on environmental and climate issues. Its mission is to support faith-led environmental and climate action efforts, locally and around the world, through collaborations on project design and management, capacity building, training, media and public outreach. Their vision: that inner, community, and planetary resilience are interdependent and that we cannot achieve any one of these goals without working on the other two. To sign up for their quarterly newsletter: https://go.wisc.edu/lokanewsletter
- founded and led Sacred Earth, a faith-based conservation program at the World Wildlife Fund; at WWF-US she was also Director for the Greater Mekong Program
- serves as the environmental adviser for His Holiness the 17th Karmapa, head of the Karma Kagyu School of Tibetan Buddhism.
- received the prestigious Yale McCluskey Award in 2014 for conservation innovation
- recently published in Psychology Today on how to cope with eco-anxiety
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Her path to wholeness: bridging her spiritual heritage growing up in Sikkim in a Tibetan Buddhist community and her environmental conservation background, after being “an environmentalist by day and a person of faith by night”
- Eco-anxiety amidst success: her own path through the urgency and panic while being externally “successful” at the World Wildlife Fund
- People and planet: why faith leaders are uniquely positioned to lead us in spiritual truth-seeking on some of our toughest issues
THE IMPACT. Dr. Rita Sambruna:
- Is an astrophysicist working on black holes in galaxies, and the Deputy Director of the Astrophysics Division at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland. She was awarded the NASA Extraordinary Achievement Medal in 2019 for her work at NASA and service to the profession.
- At Goddard, she Leads the DEIA (diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility) activities of her Division to improve diversity in astrophysics, connected to a broader new NASA program called Mission Equity
- Previously was a professor of Physics and Astronomy at George Mason University, in Fairfax, Virginia
- Is a certified yoga teacher, with specialization in Yoga for Cancer
- Is trained in Applied Behavior Analysis and its applications to non-human animals, and lives with 5 parrots
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Two merging inspirations from childhood: discovering the universe, and a humanitarian focus
- A take on billionaires going into space when we have other problems on Earth
- Planning in decades vs. bridging near-term needs
- The biggest challenge: changing culture, not only policies and numbers
- We are all made of star stuff: that is social justice
From the Brundtland Report in the 1980s to the Super Bowl in 2021, Norway has led on sustainability. How does this small country have such a big impact? Hege Barnes takes us behind the scenes at Innovation Norway and one country’s sustainable focus.
THE IMPACT. Hege Barnes:
- Is Regional Director Americas for Innovation Norway, the Norwegian government's entity for trade and industry, where she assists Norwegian companies and entrepreneurs enter and grow successfully in the Americas, and promotes Norway as a travel destination.
- Sits on the board of Nordic Innovation House-New York and the Norwegian American Chamber of Commerce.
- Has a Masters in International Business and a love for all aspects of creative development, innovative thinking and working with people and companies.
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Growing up in Norway: wanting to leave yet wanting to take the pride and values
- A holistic sustainability focus: in tourism, industry, and investment
- Protecting nature: a good place to live is a good place to visit
- The Super Bowl ad with Will Ferrell: a rivalry with Norway and reactions
In sustainability, we’re trying to make the world better... but a better world by whom and for whom? Heather Mak asks these uncomfortable yet instrumental questions with co-founding Diversity in Sustainability.
THE IMPACT. Heather Mak:
- Is co-founder of Diversity in Sustainability, a membership organization aimed at increasing diversity, equity, and inclusion within the field of sustainability.
- Has spent almost 15 years consulting on sustainability issues and previously held sustainability roles at Deloitte, Tim Hortons, Retail Council of Canada, SustainAbility, and Canadian Business for Social Responsibility.
- Has lectured at the MBA level at the Schulich School of Business, York University, and regularly mentors students and new immigrants who are interested in the field.
- Holds a B.Com with Distinction in Marketing from McGill University, and an MBA with Honours in Sustainability from Schulich School of Business, York University.
- Is a mom, wife, sister, and daughter to two Chinese immigrants to Canada.
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
- Early influences: following environmental crises in school
- Early barriers: not seeing people like herself in the field
- The many needs for diversity in sustainability: supporting career paths, addressing historical social issues, gathering data and stories, creating better outcomes
- Challenges and learnings in the last year: creating a network of networks, creating a tent across cultural and country differences
From teen magazines to fashion to sustainability, Jessica Marati Radparvar brings her diverse background to make the emotional case to sustainability.
THE IMPACT. Jessica:
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
We often hear about tradeoffs in impact investing - impact or profit, people or planet. Cecile’s journey to lead impact at Israel's largest VC shows that it’s not either or. It's interconnected.
THE IMPACT. Cecile:
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
In business, how much is beauty in your life? What about art, music, science, activism? Tim Leberecht co-founded the House of Beautiful Business as a space for this unexpected mix, to challenge us to be more human.
THE IMPACT. Tim Leberecht:
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
From being a changemaker at a very early age, through 17 years at Greenpeace, Femke walks through the modern day tensions of leadership, and makes the case for this new type of leadership - a creative, complex, and collective leadership.
THE IMPACT. Femke Bartels:
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
In this second episode in a Synergos series, Tarlin Saye takes us from Liberia to the US, from traveler and writer to event organizer, as she creates spaces and shares stories with a long term view on uncomfortable topics like racial equity.
THE IMPACT. Tarlin:
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
In a beautiful personal story, Swati Chaudhary of Synergos shares insights on the power of listening, from her ancestors in Bihar India to fighting injustice today.
THE IMPACT. Swati:
THE JOURNEY. In our conversation, we explore:
