Description: If you have ever lost your cool with your kids and then felt the crushing wave of guilt that comes sweeping in after—this episode is for you. This week, Jen and Amy sit down with psychotherapist and emotions educator Hilary Jacobs Hendel, author of ‘It’s Not Always Depression’ and the new book ‘Parents Have Feelings, Too’, to talk about what happens when we stop ignoring our own emotions and start bringing more calm, curiosity, and compassion into our families. Hilary shares her groundbreaking Change Triangle model—a simple but powerful tool that helps us move from anxiety, shame, and reactivity to understanding what’s really underneath: our core emotions like anger, sadness, fear, and joy. Together, they unpack: How to break cycles we inherited from our own parents What “open-hearted parenting” looks like in real life How to repair when we’ve said or done something we regret And why healing our emotions may be the greatest legacy we give our kids It’s a conversation full of science, self-compassion, and deep sighs of relief—a reminder that parents have feelings too, and that tending to them isn’t selfish; it’s sacred work. Whether you’re parenting toddlers, teens, or even adult children, there is something to serve you in this episode and it’s a great one to share with a friend. Thought-provoking Quotes: “It's always possible for relationships and the brain to change, and they happen hand in hand, so it is never too late.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel “What I needed to do was slow everything down and get curious. Get to know this kid, say, ‘tell me a little bit more about what's going on.’ Question my own values and the ways I thought it was going to be, all these fantasies that I came in with at the expense of my kid when I thought I was helping.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel “Self-awareness is an investment that comes back in dividends and capital gains beyond anything that we can imagine. And it's so much more relaxing to parent this way.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel “I can shout from the rooftops that emotions education is important, just like reading and math is important. In high school biology we learn we have a heart, lungs, and pancreas, but emotions affect us far worse. Every single day of our lives. You'd think somebody would want to pay attention to teaching us a little bit about them.”– Hilary Jacobs Hendel Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Parents Have Feelings, Too: A Guide to Navigating Your Emotions So You And Your Family Can Thrive by Hilary Jacobs Hendel and Juli Fraga - https://amzn.to/4h3wtlf For The Love Of Reconnecting Episode 03: Making Good Use of Our Emotions: Hilary Jacobs Hendel - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-32/making-good-use-of-our-emotions-hilary-jacobs-hendel/ It's Not Always Depression: Working the Change Triangle to Listen to the Body, Discover Core Emotions, and Connect to Your Authentic Self by Hilary Jacobs Hendel - https://amzn.to/3L3an6f The Change Triangle - https://www.hilaryjacobshendel.com/whats-the-change-triangle Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4nCb9pi Simple Habit meditation app - https://www.simplehabit.com/ The Change Triangle YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/c/thechangetriangle/videos Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.hilaryjacobshendel.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/hilaryjacobshendel/ Twitter - https://x.com/HilaryJHendel Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/AuthorHilaryJacobsHendel Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/thechangetriangle/videos Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: In this moving episode, listeners share their own tender and personal stories inspired by Jen's bestselling book, "Awake," which debuted at number three on the New York Times bestseller list. The touching and heartrending voicemails coming in from readers of “Awake” highlight our yearning to build our lives on solid foundations, our propensity to reach for community and friendship, and the shared human experience we feel around suffering and pain. In this deeply emotional episode, listeners recount overcoming stories of adversity and finding hope, often describing "Awake" as a "life raft" during their own challenging times and Jen gets to hear the profound impact that “Awake” is having on readers everywhere. Tune in for an inspiring journey through the voices of those touched by "Awake." Thought-provoking Quotes: “These listener voicemail episodes are so resonant. I love them. Y'all always say the truest, most beautiful, hardest things. Honestly, I'm always grateful for your courage to come on this show and say your thing out loud.” – Jen Hatmaker “I didn’t know Jen was about to curl up in my cave and hold me close. I didn’t know her story, which I expected to be irrelevant to mine, would tell me that I am okay, normal, and I won’t stay this way.” – Anonymous reader/listener “The best teachers don’t tell, they show. Although you say this book is not prescriptive and you’re not telling us what to do, you’ve shown us how to live a life and get through hard things with integrity, honesty, discretion, and strength. You’ve shown us how to take responsibility and ownership of our own shit. Your friends have shown us how to show up fully and unconditionally. Beautiful examples of love and friendship. Your family has shown us how to be there as an unwavering and loving presence to get through their hardest things.” Reader/listener, Denise “My life broke apart too and thankfully I had friendships to fall back on. It wasn’t a thing where I was grateful in hindsight. I was able to be grateful for it in the moment, which is not typically how stories unfold.” – Anonymous reader/listener Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3KDAalt 107 Days by Kamala Harris - https://amzn.to/47aZ6tb Poems & Prayers by Matthew McConaughey - https://amzn.to/473gy1Q Fierce, Free and Full of Fire: The Guide to Being Glorious You by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/48jrtXg Emily P. Freeman Podcast episode 374: Tell the Whole Truth with Jen Hatmaker - https://emilypfreeman.com/podcast/374/ For the Love Podcast: A Lantern for Others in Dark Spaces: Jen Hatmaker on Sharing Her Most Tender Story - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/a-lantern-for-others-in-dark-spaces-jen-hatmaker-on-sharing-her-most-tender-story/ 7: An Experimental Mutiny Against Excess by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4mTSzrM Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Sometimes you  read a book that just wrecks you in the best possible way — the kind of story that stays in your bones long after you close the last page. Go As A River is exactly that kind of book. It is a lyrical and haunting coming-of-age novel set amid the rugged beauty of Colorado’s Western Slope in the late 1940s through the mid-20th century. Inspired by true events—the disappearance of the small ranching town of Iola beneath the Blue Mesa Reservoir—Shelley Read crafts a story that is both intimately personal and richly symbolic.  Shelley is a fifth-generation Coloradan who has spent her life in the Gunnison Valley, and you can feel that connection to the land in every line of this novel. Shelley has spent decades teaching writing and literature, but with this debut (now an international bestseller) she’s given us something timeless — a story about love, loss, and the courage to keep moving forward like the river itself. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I deeply value the long journey to becoming ourselves, especially as women, and the complexities of that journey.” – Shelley Read “I think,so often, young people are boxed in and alienated from the very beginning to who their true self is and what their true journey is. And, I thought [as a teacher] that I could save these young people a whole lot of pain going forward and just help them discover who they are now, to follow their most authentic selves.” – Shelley Read “I'm not so sure that I set out to actively reclaim my creativity and my writerly self as much as Victoria Nash, bless her heart, the main character of my novel. She came to me in whatever magical way. I didn't go seeking her. She came and claimed me in some way and she is who turned me back to my writing life because she came to me with such power and such insistence that I had to write her story whether I had time to do it or not. Little by little by little I started accepting this journey of coming back to my writerly self.” – Shelley Read “I think the more generous we can be as writers with process and allowing the story to unfold over time, in the most authentic way, then we really get into the story that we really need to be telling.” – Shelley Read I had to turn the story and the journey in this novel toward hope. I had to. Because ultimately, this deep well of strength and resilience and this ability to bear the seemingly unbearable that all of us carry. Hope is what's going to drive us to rise each time, and to continue to rise.” – Shelley Read Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Go as a River: A Novel by Shelley Read - https://amzn.to/4lIly0Y Film Rights to Shelley Read’s Global Bestseller ‘Go as a River’ Head to Fifth Season, Mazur Kaplan - https://variety.com/2023/film/news/go-as-a-river-movie-shelley-read-book-1235667430 The River’s Daughter by Bridget Crocker - https://amzn.to/3Jy78mE Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/4n3WpPy Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.shelleyread.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shelleyread.author Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/shelley.read.50 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Sometimes the deepest growth comes from the hardest seasons. An untreatable diagnosis, a painful divorce, the loss of hard-earned savings—when life tears apart the script we imagined for ourselves, we’re left to wrestle with who we are, what we value, and how to begin again. In this special encore episode, poet and bestselling author Maggie Smith joins Jen for a tender, hopeful conversation about finding light in the aftermath of loss. Jen shares how she first discovered Maggie’s work (spoiler: Shauna Niequist played matchmaker), and together they swap stories of navigating divorce, rediscovering hope, and daring to rebuild. Maggie opens up about the unexpected end of her marriage, the daily pep talks she wrote just to survive, and how those words became lifelines for thousands of others. Along the way, she reminds us that even when our script gets flipped, we can trust “future us,” make peace with uncertainty, and emerge stronger, more grounded, and ready for what comes next. If you’ve ever felt adrift in the dark or questioned your worth in the wake of loss, this encore episode will remind you that you are loved, worthy, and capable of carrying on—step by step, word by word. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Growth unfortunately often comes from the most uncomfortable or painful parts of life. I don’t want this to be true, and yet here we are.” – Jen Hatmaker “My marriage ended… and part of what helped me stay anchored was writing. I was in too much pain to really write poems, so I started writing myself a little pep talk every day. What I found was that all these other people started sharing them… and that sense of purpose, and that sense of shared community, at a time when I felt completely alone, was everything.” – Maggie Smith “Hope is imaginative—it allows you to envision what might be up ahead even when you see nothing.” – Jen Hatmaker “I was lost at sea, adrift in the dark, but even one small light on the horizon showed me I was still on the right path.” – Jen Hatmaker “I’ve built up a tolerance to ambiguity. Ten years ago, it would’ve undone me. Now, it’s a skill I’m grateful for.” – Maggie Smith “We didn’t choose this. The script was flipped for us. But what we do with it—that belongs to us.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Shauna Niequist - https://www.shaunaniequist.com/ Keep Moving: Notes on Loss, Creativity, and Change by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/41YsuAb Good Bones: Poems by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/469P6jA Goldenrod: Poems by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/3Iwh7ZB You Could Make This Place Beautiful: A Memoir by Maggie Smith - https://amzn.to/46r9CuZ Guest’s Links: Website - https://maggiesmithpoet.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/maggiesmithpoet/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: The day has finally arrived—Awake is officially out in the world. In this episode, Jen Hatmaker opens up about a story she's held tightly for years, a story she's finally ready to share. Jen takes us behind the scenes of writing Awake—a memoir told in vivid vignettes and written in real-time, as if each scene was recounted the very day it happened. The book is broken into three parts: The End, The Middle, and The Beginning, tracking Jen’s own process of healing and awakening to a number of realizations and truths. Jen walks us down that path of recovery while honoring the many women who held up lanterns along the way and gave her the courage to keep going. She reflects on the process of confronting the deep-rooted systems of patriarchy, purity culture, body shame, and the shaky foundation that once defined her marriage. This book isn’t just about the patterns, behaviors, codependency, and attachment wounds that shaped Jen’s story—it’s also about the joy of stepping into a new beginning. And most of all, it’s about you. Because it was your presence, your listening, and your courage that made her brave enough to tell it. Now, it’s yours. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I was in the pitch black, dark night of the soul. Everything was so shrouded in grief and loss and fear but I could see all these little lanterns from my community going, ‘Keep going. We're here. We're with you.’ I'll never get over that as long as I live.” – Jen Hatmaker “Awake is the lantern I am holding up.for women everywhere who need someone else to tell them, ‘Keep going. You're not alone. I understand your feelings. I understand your fear. I understand your trauma. Maybe also a teeny bit, I understand your future. I understand what you are capable of. What is possible for you. I understand your resiliency. I understand that no matter what you have lost, what has changed, what has shifted, no matter how brokenhearted you are, I still believe some of your best days are ahead of you.’” – Jen Hatmaker “I can trust you, the reader, to do what you need to do with the information. I can trust you to take exactly what you need out of each and every moment, memory, everything, and to alchemize that into your own life, into your own story. I don't have to tell you what to do with it. I don't have to tell you what to think about it. I don't have to tell you how to process it.” – Jen Hatmaker “The fits this book gave me, trying to write in real time! You know, writing an eighth grade memory took me a third of the book to finally get the tense of all my verbs right. I kept writing it in the past tense because it's in the past. The amount of times I had to comb back through and change all the verb tenses to present instead of past was every single paragraph.” – Jen Hatmaker “If I'm gonna tell the story, then let's tell the story. Not like the shinier version of it or the less humiliating version of it or the one that would never indict me, only my partner. There's no integrity in that.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4pduwXb Bumble – https://bumble.com/en-us/ To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, we're joined by Emmy Award–winning journalist and fierce midlife advocate, Tamsen Fadal, who has become a trusted voice for women navigating the complex — and often misunderstood — journey of menopause. Through her work and her new book, How to Menopause: The Essential Roadmap to Resilience and Empowerment in Midlife and Beyond, Tamsen is on a mission to rewrite the narrative around aging, helping women feel seen, supported, and empowered. Her book is packed with practical tools, honest storytelling, and a powerful message: this phase of life isn’t something to endure — it’s an opportunity to reinvent, reconnect, and rise. From demanding better healthcare to breaking the silence in the workplace, Tamsen is helping women turn midlife into a movement. In today’s enlightening conversation, we unpack: Whether you’re in the thick of it or just beginning to notice the shifts, this episode will leave you informed, inspired, and ready to take action. Share this episode with a woman you care about! Thought-provoking Quotes:   Resources Mentioned in This Episode:   Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.tamsenfadal.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tamsenfadal/ Twitter - https://x.com/TamsenFadal Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/tamsenfadal/ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tamsenfadal Substack - https://tamsenfadal.substack.com/ Podcast - https://www.tamsenfadal.com/the-tamsen-show-podcast   Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker   The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.              ● The biggest myths about menopause we need to bust● How to become your own best advocate in the doctor’s office● Why midlife isn’t an ending — it’s a beginning★ “The truth is there are a lot of doctors who, through no fault of their own,  are not informed about menopause. Doctors don't go into this profession not wanting to help, but unfortunately a lot of them, by their own admission, were not trained in medical school. And I think we've got to do something about that one.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “Women are thriving. They're bolder, smarter, wiser, they’re more open about their lives, healthier in a lot of ways, they’re in relationships that they want to be in versus relationships that they felt like they had to be in.  I look at this as a celebration in some ways.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “I really think that we have to start looking at this stage of life in a different way.  Women could celebrate this time in life, what I've been calling the bolden years instead of the golden years, instead of dreading these years.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “If you're dealing with the symptoms of perimenopause and you don't know what's going on, it can be so stressful. You're having heart problems. You feel like you're going crazy. You can't sleep, and now you can't function at work. I wanted women to be able to know what to do. It’s a chaotic time that can feel confusing unless we simplify it.” – Tamsen Fadal★ “It is so nice to feel normal at this stage of life. It is just such a relief to realize not only how many of us there are, but how many solutions exist. We are not helpless and this is not inevitable. Menopause is, but the suffering isn’t.” – Jen Hatmaker➢ How to Menopause: Take Charge of Your Health, Reclaim Your Life, and Feel Even Better than Before by Tamsen Fadal – https://amzn.to/4mIbMx5➢ The M Factor: Shredding the Silence About Menopause – https://themfactorfilm.com/➢ Midi Health - https://www.joinmidi.com/➢ The Men’s Guide to Understanding Menopause – https://www.tamsenfadal.com/mens-guide-to-understanding-menopause To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Have you ever found yourself at odds with someone you deeply care about—unable to agree on something that really matters? Is it possible to stay connected, even when your beliefs clash? This seemed like an important question to answer, so we decided to go back into our archives to bring forward this 2021 conversation about one of the most challenging forms of reconnection: loving and staying in relationship with people who see the world differently. To help us navigate this complex emotional landscape, we're joined by Rozella Haydée White—also known as the Love Big Coach. A theologian, spiritual life coach, and leadership consultant, Rozella is passionate about helping people cultivate love that is both healing and justice-rooted. In this encore episode,  Rozella and Jen explore how to show up in hard conversations without losing yourself, and how to make space for compassion when disagreement feels like a wall. Rozella offers this powerful reminder: “If we believe that people are created in the image of God, then I don't really have a choice but to believe in people.” This conversation unpacks:  What it means to stay in a relationship when we do not see eye to eye How we keep loving family and friends when our values don’t align anymore What do we do with our fractured families without creating havoc and disruption How we can hold two things that are true at once Thought-provoking Quotes: “If we believe that people are created in the image of God, then I don't really have a choice but to believe in people, because I don't believe that God creates anything but that which is life-giving, that which is creative, that which is good and holy.” – Rozella Haydée White “When I talk about love, I'm talking about that which is creative, that which is justice-seeking, and that which is ultimately sustaining for our mind, heart, bodies, and soul.” – Rozella Haydée White “Love does not mean absence of consequence or absence of conflict.” – Rozella Haydée White Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Love Big Coach - https://www.rozellahwhite.com/ A Rhythm of Prayer: A Collection of Meditations for Renewal by Sarah Bessey - https://amzn.to/466mtT3 Glennon Doyle’s For The Love Episode - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-02/finding-beauty-in-the-mess-with-glennon-doyle/ Brené Brown’s For The Love Episode - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-02/getting-vulnerable-with-dr-brene-brown/ Love Big: The Power of Revolutionary Relationships to Heal the World by Rozella Haydée White - https://amzn.to/3Vrm6Oh Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.rozellahwhite.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lovebigcoach/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/lovebigcoach Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@lovebigcoach TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@lovebigcoach Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: As a luminary in contemporary literature, Elizabeth Gilbert’s writing has shaped the zeitgeist through adventure, spiritual exploration, creativity, and what it means to live a life of integrity. Her work consistently resonates with a global audience, prompting introspection and inspiring personal journeys of self-discovery. In this episode, Elizabeth Gilbert delves into the intricate narratives woven within her latest book, All the Way to the River: Love, Loss, and Liberation.  Liz traces the evolving nature of her bond with Rayya Elias, illustrating how the relationship transitioned from a cherished best friend to a trusted neighbor, then blossomed into a profound creative muse, and ultimately became a romantic partner—her "person."  This deeply significant relationship unfolded against the harrowing backdrop of Rayya’s terminal pancreatic cancer diagnosis and her courageous, yet often arduous, battle with addiction.  In a conversation full of heart and unabashed vulnerability, Liz reflects on her own struggles with people-pleasing, addiction, and finding emotional and spiritual sobriety, discussing what it looks like to take accountability for one's own well-being to write a life story that ends with dignity. Thought-provoking Quotes: “If you're very lucky, you might just meet one person in your life who you can go all the way to the river with.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “There's not a jury in the world who wouldn’t have agreed that I had every right to see myself as a victim in that story but I still didn't see my role in the insanity. It took me years of grieving and anger and processing to see it.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “There is no such thing as a relationship between an incredibly healthy person and an incredibly dysfunctional person. There's an incredibly dysfunctional person and a person who is very far from themselves engaging in that relationship with that incredibly dysfunctional person.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “I’ve used people as though they are drugs, to shore up my incredibly gaping insecurity wound. So I'm going to either use someone as a sedative, somebody who makes me feel really safe, or I'm going to go find somebody to use as a speed ball of excitement and danger, somebody who's very bad for me. I would just try to find the person who could make my levels feel right.” – Elizabeth Gilbert “Like many humans, I am extremely faulty at knowing what's going to make me happy.. I anticipate that something will make me happy and it almost kills me.” – Elizabeth Gilbert Emotional sobriety, for me, is taking complete accountability for my own nervous system and not ever accusing anybody of disrupting it. A simple thing that I've learned to say is not ‘You need to stop behaving the way that you're behaving’, but ‘I love you and I need to go.’” – Elizabeth Gilbert To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today’s episode is an absolute treat. Catherine Newman, the beloved author of both fiction and nonfiction writing, known for her sharp wit, emotional resonance, and profound insights into everyday life, sits down with Jen to talk about our August JHBC selection, Sandwich, which quickly gained national attention for its honest, tender, and hilarious reflection on real life in the messy middle years.  In this discussion that feels like a conversation between lifelong friends, Jen and Catherine delve into the unique challenges faced by the Sandwich Generation.  Catherine writes so beautifully about the ache of watching our kids become adults—still ours, but not really, meanwhile exploring what it looks like to engage in the caretaking and slow grief of watching our parents age. And with hilarious candor, she peels back the curtain of what it’s like to endure all of this in the throes of menopause.  It’s a book that feels like it crawled inside our minds, hearts, and lives.  Catherine also gives glimpses into how many of the characters and storylines were inspired by real life experiences, which is perhaps why it tugs so tenderly on our heartstrings and strikes such a raw and honest chord with its readers. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I became like a total writing-for-money whore. I couldn't believe you could write for money. It was so intoxicating to me and I started writing everything I could if they would pay me for it and I did this until last year. And it didn't really matter what they would pay me for it. And I wrote everybody's alumni magazines. I wrote advertorial copy for websites. I wrote the etiquette column for Real Simple Magazine for 10 years, like a billion different things. And here I am.”  – Catherine Newman “Talk about ‘sandwich’. I'm the filling that's slowly extracting itself. I'm like the bologna creeping out the back door while the sandwich takes care of itself. An incredible system.” – Catherine Newman “How did I not know this stuff? I thought menopause really was the cessation of your period. Like it was a train you got on when you were 12 and then you just stepped off of it when you were 50. Not that you stepped off this train and entered this hellscape.” – Catherine Newman “I stopped reading the Goodreads reviews for Sandwich — somebody did call the book ‘grinding and plotless’. It was a three-word review and I loved it so much, like this is the slow drip of shame and hubris for me…. I want that on my tombstone ‘grinding and plotless’, like ‘tell me about it, you only had to read about it, this is my actual life.’” – Catherine Newman To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: In this episode, we open the mic to our incredible podcast community, spotlighting the diverse feedback and personal stories from our listeners that have shaped our discussions. Hear firsthand accounts of the impact our guests and their insights have had. Listeners Melinda, Tracy, Joanna, Erin, Kelly, Laura, and Sarah share a wide range of experiences: navigating major life changes like empty-nesting, building new friendships, wrestling with evolving faith, and even becoming an unwilling country music convert. We also dive into some humorous reflections about Travis and TayTay, rest stop kittens, and open mic nights. Join us as we celebrate the voices that make our podcast a vibrant and dynamic space for conversation and connection. Tune in and be part of the dialogue. Thought-provoking Quotes: “Let the top rung of the ladder be your sincere convictions. That's the one to keep sturdy, clear, and visible, and hold that one as tight as you can.” – Jen Hatmaker “Anchor your feet into the ground and stand in this storm. Let it rage. Weather it, weather your own discomfort, weather everybody else's discomfort and whatever loss or change comes along with it, because it will end, and there will come a day when it is not that chaotic and what you will be left with is your integrity and that is enough.” – Jen Hatmaker “Women are capable of getting through the hardest things.  Maybe it’s a trope because it’s true. Maybe the women who are betrayed grieve and recover and rebuild because that's what women do. So maybe it's not such a surprise that we can flourish.” – Amy Hardin “I’m just convinced, this is the time for us to reinvent. Look how awesome we are.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce engagement post - https://www.instagram.com/p/DN02niAXMM-/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MTQ4YWwzOGcycWJlcA== [ENCORE] When the Truth Goes Viral: The Cost (and Benefit) of Living Honestly with Jonathan Merritt - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/encore-when-the-truth-goes-viral-the-cost-and-benefit-of-living-honestly-with-jonathan-merritt/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3VnMb0k The Interview: Jen Hatmaker’s Life Exploded in Middle Age. So She Built a Better One. – https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/23/magazine/jen-hatmaker-interview.html Shiny, Happy People - https://tv.apple.com/us/show/shiny-happy-people/umc.cmc.68y3j8gmhyj647n1j8hgscd3p No Filter, Just The Mirror: Trisha Yearwood Reflects On New Seasons and New Ambitions - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/no-filter-just-the-mirror-trisha-yearwood-reflects-on-new-seasons-and-new-ambitions/ Trisha Yearwood - The Mirror – https://trishayearwood.lnk.to/TheMirror Awake Book Tour with guest moderator Trisha Yearwood - Austin, TX - https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bookpeople-presents-jen-hatmaker-awake-tickets-1388635428949?aff=oddtdtcreator I Choose Me: Jennie Garth on Midlife, Reinvention & Owning Your Next Chapter - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/i-choose-me-jennie-garth-on-midlife-reinvention-owning-your-next-chapter/ Gretchen Rubin - https://gretchenrubin.com/ Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation | The U.S. Surgeon General’s Advisory on the  Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community, 2023 - https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today, Jen has a discussion with her longtime friend, brilliant thought-leader and activist, Austin Channing Brown. You probably know Austin from her viral first book, I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness, which flew off shelves in 2020 following the murder of George Floyd, as we were witnessing worldwide protests, calls for police reform, and a radical change to our racial justice systems. Countless people trusted Austin to help them unpack and understand the racial reckoning going on in our country at that time. Now, Austin is releasing a new project that shares some of her hard-fought learnings gained since that tumultuous time. Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession is a love letter to the black women, like Austin herself, who are exhausted from being everything to everyone but themselves. Across essays titled “I Love Myself When I Am Laughing,” “When I Am Awkward,” “When I Am Failing,” and more, Austin celebrates the fullness of her humanity. Each chapter becomes a mirror, asking women—especially Black women—to consider where they’ve given themselves away and what it would mean to live with self-possession instead. Highlights from this conversation include: What it means to Austin to be “full of herself”—a phrase she reclaimed as an act of resistance, dignity, and spiritual integrity What happens in our bodies when we operate out of alignment with ourselves What it means to be a Black woman striving to live fully in a world that often demands her silence, her labor, and her conformity And the inspirational, life-saving advice that Austin received from activist, Tarana Burke This is such a good conversation starter and one to be shared, for sure. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I'm sick of white people telling me I have to remain in unhealthy workplaces, unhealthy worship spaces, unhealthy towns in order to save them. Everywhere I go, I'm told I should sacrifice myself for the possibility of whiteness getting its shit together.” – Austin Channing Brown “I grew up in an era that we called racial reconciliation. ‘Racial justice’ was too hard. It implied that there were two people who had both done wrong and needed to come together. And the way that was often phrased for people of color was that we needed to teach, we needed to offer grace, we needed to bend over backwards, we needed to touch hearts and minds, endless patience, we needed to watch our tone, we needed to be open and inviting. It was all about what we needed to do.” – Austin Channing Brown “There is an integrity, accountability, and power that comes with being full of myself. And there is a lack of needing to please anybody else. Because I'm full of me.” – Austin Channing Brown Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession by Austin Channing Brown - https://amzn.to/4k0SQI1 I'm Still Here: Reese's Book Club: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Channing Brown - https://amzn.to/4jElqyn Nikki Giovanni, poet - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/nikki-giovanni  Zora Neale Hurston - https://www.zoranealehurston.com/ I Love Myself When I Am Laughing And Then Again When I Am Looking Mean & Impressive by Zora Neale Hurston - https://amzn.to/3FVpGvA Tarana Burke - https://www.taranaburke.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://austinchanning.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/austinchanning/ Twitter - https://x.com/austinchanning Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/austinchanningbrown Substack - https://substack.com/@austinchanning Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: Today’s conversation might have you clutching your pearls and purity rings. Jen and Amy sit down with Dr. Celeste Holbrook—sexologist, educator, and author of Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture—for the candid, hilarious, and healing “sex talk” you never had but always deserved. From busting purity culture myths to unpacking women’s complicated relationship with pleasure, Dr. Holbrook shares the four “inner missionaries” that shape our approach to sex, why sexual shame runs so deep, and how to reclaim intimacy as the joyful gift it was always meant to be. Highlights include:  Unpacking women' s complicated relationship with pleasure Dr. Holbrook prescribes the best sexy-time soundtrack Review of the four inner missionaries (the Analyst, the Assassin, the Healer, and the Explorer) – the archetypes that define our individual approach to sex  Celeste reveals a surprising fact that both golf carts and ejaculate have in common How the combination of purity culture, patriarchy and capitalism are the oppression cocktail for sex And the conversation veers off course when the trio discusses an exercise that uses Jason Mamoa to evaluate their sexual ethics Thought-provoking Quotes: “When I say sex education saved my relationship, I am not being bombastic. It really did help me find myself.” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook “We view sex through a patriarchal lens. Media tells us how to feel about sex and what is sexy. So what is sexy has been historically white, thin, able-bodied, young… And the way that we view ourselves then says, well, what if I'm not all of those things? Am I still sexy? Is my body still OK?” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook “The work for us, especially as women, is to anchor into our body to experience sensuality in order to experience sex instead of perform sex.” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook “We need to be inside the system in order to take down the system.” – Dr. Celeste Holbrook Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jen Hatmake’s Sex MeCourse: SexEd For the Rest of Us - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/sex-101 Pantsuit Politics - https://www.instagram.com/pantsuitpolitics/ Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex after Purity Culture by Dr. Celeste Holbrook - https://amzn.to/46StjOa For the Love of Men by Liz Plank – https://amzn.to/41JtRSS  Say Yes to Pleasure: How to Talk About Sex and Rekindle Intimacy in Midlife with Vanessa Marin – https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/say-yes-to-pleasure-how-to-talk-about-sex-and-rekindle-intimacy-in-midlife-with-vanessa-marin/ A Tribe Called Quest – https://atribecalledquest.com/blogs/discography The Pleasure Club - https://www.drcelesteholbrook.com/https/thepleasureclub Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.drcelesteholbrook.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drcelesteholbrook/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DrCelesteHolbrook/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s time for another beloved encore presentation and this time we are bringing back this powerful podcast therapy session for your benefit and enjoyment.  Dr. Sara Kuburic, an existential psychotherapist and author behind The @Millennial.Therapist, offers profound insights into taking ownership of our lives. Dr. Kuburic champions the idea that we are free and responsible agents, shaping our own development through our choices. While it's easy to blame external forces for unhappiness, she encourages us to embrace the amazing opportunity to engage in life fully. She poses a crucial question: how much of what we face is inflicted by us, and how much just happens? As a therapist, she equips people with tools to navigate life’s challenges, asking: “what can you change or how can you change your attitude so the situation is less painful for you?” Beyond existential thought, Jen and Dr. Kuburic explore self-loss and how we can unknowingly deceive ourselves into believing we're living the life we desire, even as our bodies signal distress through depression, anxiety, and panic. Jen and Dr. Kuburic get honest about: The difference between loving the "idea" of who you are versus who you actually are, and how to stop self-deception. The point when avoiding change becomes more painful than embracing it. Acknowledging our physical limits: how our bodies send red flags like anxiety, fear, or panic, even when we feel strong. How an all-consuming dedication to making something work, even if it's not right for us, can lead to our weakest moments if we don't face the truth. Thought-provoking Quotes: “We get to engage in life; we can take ownership, we can take responsibility, we can make choices, and I think that that’s really how I see human suffering. My question is always, ‘how much of it happened to you? How much of it did you inflict on yourself?’” – Dr. Sara Kuburic “Life happens to us but that’s not all that happens. We also happen to life.” – Dr, Sara Kuburic “The most pain I experienced actually came from my own participation, which included avoidance and self-deceit. I am not hard on myself because it came from such a pure place. I can’t be mad at myself. But, I also understand that it’s not something that serves me.” – Dr. Sara Kuburic “The truth is there regardless of whether or not you choose to see it. It will dictate your life until you see it. So are you safe enough in yourself to handle the truth that you are resisting or avoiding? That’s a really delicate question that we need to honor.” – Dr.  Sara Kuburic Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Dr. Sara Kuburic’s “For the rest of 2025” Instagram post - https://www.instagram.com/p/C_WjH0mzF9z/ It’s On Me: Accept Hard Truths, Discover Yourself and Change Your Life by Dr. Sara Kuburic - https://amzn.to/3Uf40yf Dr. Sara Kuburic’s USA Today Column - https://www.usatoday.com/staff/7586635002/sara-kuburic/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.sara-kuburic.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/millennial.therapist/?hl=en Twitter - https://x.com/SaraKuburic Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/sarakuburic/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description:  In Part 2 of this episode, we push even deeper — into the personal, the creative, the brave, and the sometimes scary places we go when we dare to  tell the truth. This time, Tyler Merritt has turned the tables on Jen and he’s asking the questions!  We talk about what it’s like to be seen, judged, misunderstood — and still choose honesty. We talk about Awake and the vulnerability involved with retelling the painful and unvarnished parts of your story. We talk about fear. And we talk about the joy we’ve found in the middle of it all. So let’s jump back in. In this second installment: Jen talks about the last time that she felt truly brave and what it felt like to unearth and expose some of the most tender and personal moments of her life in such an honest and examining way Tyler asks Jen who was her best model of kindness at a young age Jen shares the song that is reflecting her current vibe in the world And Tyler asks Jen what she wishes more people understood about her Thought-provoking Quotes: "Our stories, though they may seem new, are the things that change the world." - Jen Hatmaker “What I asked myself when deciding to include or exclude something was, am I going to be proud of this five years from now? So that's five years further down the road. I'm going to be five years more mature, five years more healed, five more years of distance. Will I be proud of what I say five years from now? And I let that be my guide.” – Jen Hatmaker “It's been weird to be at that center of people's judgment for quite a long time now.  I've evolved a lot in the public eye, which is weird for everybody. It's weird for me. It's weird for people to watch. At all points along the way, I can say sincerely, I have really and truly been trying to do my best. I just wish people knew that.” – Jen Hatmaker “My story is not special and I think that's what makes it important. I hope that the readers will see their own story inside of it somewhere in some way on some level and then decide to take from mine what they need for theirs. So I can't wait to find out.” – Jen Hatmaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6 This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/ Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/ Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi Guest’s Links: Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/ Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recorded live from the Oregon coast on the final day of MeCamp, this special two-part conversation between Jen and her partner Tyler Merritt is the perfect blend of hilarity, heart, and honesty. In Part 1, Jen and Tyler share stories from their MeCamp adventures — including a whale-watching excursion that got a little too close for comfort, and a near-death boat ride they’ll never forget. They also reflect on the power of personal storytelling, how vulnerability has shown up in their lives and work, and why telling the truth (even when it’s awkward) can be both healing and hilarious. Discussing the impact of Tyler's viral video "Before You Call the Cops" to Jen's reflections on her upcoming book "Awake," this conversation reveals the transformative potential of embracing vulnerability. Tune in to discover how opening up about our most personal stories can not only heal us but also inspire others to see themselves in our narratives. Tyler talks about the most awkward moment he’s ever had because he opted to be vulnerable and honest instead of protecting his pride He and Jen discuss the hardest truths they’ve ever had to tell themselves And Tyler goes back into the annals to reveal his most embarrassing moment as a performer on stage Thought-provoking Quotes: “The spirit of MeCamp almost got us killed.”– Tyler Merritt “I'm aware that it's not every day that most people see a six foot two black man with dreadlocks crying in real life. I have never regretted a single moment in my life of being transparent about how I feel emotionally with somebody. Vulnerability has never kicked back at me in a negative way.”– Tyler Merritt “I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. Because I was saying who I am and I was allowing myself to be open to the world, the world was willing to take that. What it did within the black community is it allowed a lot of other black people to begin making their own videos going, before you call the cops, I just want you to know this about me. So it opened up a door of vulnerability that really allowed that to kind of echo.”– Tyler Merritt Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6 This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/ Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf Luna Sea Fish House in Yachats, Oregon – https://www.lunaseafishhouse.com/ Buy My Own Drinks by Runaway June – https://open.spotify.com/track/40p6WybX0YvcLdMlLja3oL A Door Made for Me by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4mv4jBd A Long December by Counting Crows - https://open.spotify.com/track/1tjKIXd7DYNklhVSgBxREi Guest’s Links: Website - https://thetylermerrittproject.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/ Twitter - https://x.com/ttmproject Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittproject Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Chris Whitaker didn’t come to writing the usual way. His path began with a series of harrowing experiences in young adulthood that left him searching for tools to process trauma and find peace. As a boy, he’d found comfort in libraries, and it was there he discovered a book on writing-as-therapy that encouraged him to fictionalize his pain and set stories in places of joy. Writing became a lifeline—and the foundation for the emotionally rich characters that define his work. Chris’ personal story deeply informs his bestselling novels, including We Begin at the End and our July JHBC selection, All the Colors of the Dark, resonating with readers worldwide through their authenticity and heart. Join us as we explore his remarkable journey—from pain to page—and the healing power of storytelling. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I didn't set out to write such a sprawling, massive book. I had a simple, top line pitch and then I began writing it and it evolved into like this just epic book.” – Chris Whitaker “I thought the book's probably not going to fit neatly into a genre because life never does, you know? There might be a crime in it, but it's the least interesting thing in the book. It's going to probably be a coming of age story, definitely a story of friendship, definitely a look at family and first love and, and pirates and beekeepers as well. Obviously.” – Chris Whitaker “I wanted everything to lead somewhere. Everything that you think is a throwaway in the story, every line that seems like it doesn't quite fit, it leads somewhere. The entire story is a network that is leading you towards the answer.” – Chris Whitaker Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Jen’s post about reading All The Colors of the Dark while on a ski trip – http://bit.ly/4kVA5qt We Begin at the End by Chris Whitaker - https://amzn.to/4lrONFL Amy Einhorn, Editor - https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/people/article/93078-amy-einhorn-named-fiction-publisher-at-crown.html  The Last Child: A Novel by John Hart - https://amzn.to/4nyXcsT Nita Prose, author - https://www.nitaprose.com/ Tall Oaks by Chris Whitaker - https://amzn.to/40dYSOc A Prayer for Owen Meany: A Novel by John Irving - https://amzn.to/4kb8UH9 Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: A Novel by Gabrielled Zevin Guest’s Links: Website - https://sites.prh.com/chriswhitaker Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/chriswhitakerauthor/ Twitter - https://x.com/whittyauthor Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: What happens when the faith you were raised with no longer fits? Join us as we explore faith deconstruction and what it looks like to hold on to what matters while letting go of harmful narratives. Our guest, Mary Katherine Backstrom, knows this journey well. Once rooted in evangelical certainty, her world began to unravel—her marriage, career, and faith all shaken. In her raw and hilarious memoir, Not That Wheel Jesus, MK shares what it was like to question everything, wrestle with purity culture’s impact, and walk through the grief of lost certainties. As she puts it: “I walked through the rubble, I danced in the fire pits with my friends, and I've emerged into this quiet post-apocalyptic space where I can hear my own voice.” Whether you’re navigating your own faith shift or just curious, this conversation will resonate. And don’t forget—you can leave us your thoughts at jenhatmaker.com/podcast! Thought-provoking Quotes: “Everybody I speak to that's been on a growth journey of any sort—spiritual, emotional, whatever—you get to a point where you realize that confidence comes from not knowing everything and being at peace with what you can't figure out.” – MK Backstrom “It felt like I was looking at my life and feeling  like there's so much loss here, especially my sexuality. My church robbed me of joy. And that's the opposite of what was promised. Once I realized I participated in that behavior, I was able to make amends.” – MK Backstrom  “When I walk into that [church] space, it feels like going into a home where a child experienced abuse. I don't know that that's going to leave my body for a very long time. And it doesn't mean that I'm never gonna go back, but I also listen to myself better now and I'm not going to go somewhere where my body feels like it's on fire.” – MK Backstrom “My body is still responding to everything it's experienced for 40 years in the church. And I'm finally getting to the place where I'm starting to understand what my baseline feels like.” – MK Backstrom “If there is a God worth worshiping and there's a life worth living, those things can stand up to your big questions. No God is so fragile that your human curiosity is going to break this to pieces. No problem is so big in your life that you're not gonna get up and keep moving. There's a lot of freedom after the fear. Trust the process, ask questions.” – MK Backstrom Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Holy Hot Mess: Finding God in the Details of this Weird and Wonderful Life by Mary Katherine Backstrom - https://amzn.to/3ZV5GAi Not That Wheel, Jesus!: Stories From a Faith That Went Off-Road in the Best (and Worst) Possible Ways by Mary Katherine Backstrom - https://amzn.to/45KbY9v Rachel Held Evans - https://rachelheldevans.com/ Searching for Sunday: Loving, Leaving, and Finding the Church by Rachel Held Evans - https://amzn.to/4lxKkRY Dallas Willard - https://dwillard.org/ Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Sex MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/sex-101 Dr. Celeste Holbrook - https://www.drcelesteholbrook.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.mkbackstrom.com/ Twitter - https://x.com/mkbackstrom Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/MKBackstrom TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@marykatherinebackstrom Substack - https://marykatherinebackstrom.substack.com/ Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Description: We’ve got an absolute legend in the house. She's a country music powerhouse, a Grammy winner, a TV star, a best-selling cookbook author, and honestly, probably the only person who could out-sing you and out-cook you on the same day — we’re talking about the one and only Trisha Yearwood. You know this queen’s voice from classics like 'She's in Love with the Boy' and 'How Do I Live' — songs that have made us cry, and belt in our cars, and maybe text someone we shouldn’t. And now, she’s back with a brand new album called The Mirror — and let us tell you, it’s not just a comeback, it’s a reflection, literally. It’s raw, it’s real, and it’s perhaps her most vulnerable project yet. The Mirror is Trisha’s first album where she’s co-written every song, stepping into new creative territory as both a singer and songwriter. It’s a window into Trisha’s life at this moment—a culmination of decades in the spotlight, but told on her own terms. It’s not just an album—it’s a statement of identity, and an invitation to look at yourself with courage and compassion. We’re talking about life, love, growth, and how Trisha continues to reinvent herself while staying grounded in what matters. So grab a coffee, or something stronger, and get comfy — because Trisha and Jen are inviting us into their conversation on how we let go of the things that no longer fit who we are so we can embrace the things putting fresh wind at our backs. Thought-provoking Quotes: “There’s something in me that really believes in me. It has to be or I wouldn't be sitting here doing these things.”– Trisha Yearwood “I've never been a person who could answer the question, ‘where do you see yourself in the next five years?’ I just know that I'm open to the opportunities.”– Trisha Yearwood “For a long time. I let the approval part of me drive the car. I drove that car to plenty of places I was out of alignment with. I don't think I'll ever be completely rid of that voice, but she's in the backseat now. She's not driving the car anymore.”– Trisha Yearwood “Songwriting makes you instantly intimate because you're having to be really vulnerable.”– Trisha Yearwood “From a young age, a lot of women are taught that we don't get to write our own story and we don't get to take control. But you get to decide what the truth about you is and how you want your life to be.”– Trisha Yearwood Resources Mentioned in This Episode: The Mirror Album by Trisha Yearwood - https://trishayearwood.lnk.to/TheMirror Trisha’s Southern Kitchen on Food Network - https://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/trishas-southern-kitchen Dry Needling - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/16542-dry-needling Frozen Shoulder in Menopause - https://bit.ly/44NNOJi Awake: a Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40Og791 Walkaway Joe - https://open.spotify.com/track/5pzoq7ggrA0GN3SMjy0NT8 She’s in Love with a Boy - https://open.spotify.com/track/4EJvW4NHAk7TrIeX44jjXF The Song Remembers When - https://open.spotify.com/track/4dS7TYCTGKyhs9ZDt8iPcT The Bluebird Cafe - https://bluebirdcafe.com/ TalkShopLive - https://talkshop.live/channels/trishayearwood Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.trishayearwood.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/TrishaYearwood Twitter - https://x.com/TrishaYearwood Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TrishaYearwood Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw0Nn2LTsXGB0rP53Z0ACWQ TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@itstrishayearwood Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Priyanka Chopra is an award-winning actor, producer, and humanitarian—and one of the most recognizable faces in the world. In this 2021 conversation, she reflects on her memoir Unfinished, sharing her journey from India to the U.S. and the lessons she’s learned about identity, ambition, and reinvention. Priyanka talks about the power of perseverance, trusting your instincts, and embracing failure as part of success. She reminds us that it's never too late to start again—and you’re always allowed to say yes to your dreams. Thought-provoking Quotes: “There is something profoundly wonderful about blooming a little later in your story. It's never too late. Everything you've done is a foundation for what you'll do next. It might not come up for a couple of years, but you will find out eventually, that made my life richer. This made my skillset better. Like nothing is ever wasted if you're doing something you're passionate about.” – Jen Hatmaker “I am at a much more confident place that the insecurities of my past don’t affect me anymore.” – Priyanka Chopra  “Anything is a possibility. You can make a career out of anything. When I was growing up, there were like five career options – you could become a doctor, or an engineer, or a lawyer, or an accountant… But now, it’s endless. It’s such a great time for all of us with ambition and desire, no matter where you are, or what your circumstances are, to invest in your dreams.” – Priyanka Chopra Jonas “My feminism is equal-opportunity, the freedom to make the choices I want to make for my individual  life, just the way men have enjoyed for such a long time. That’s why its so important for us as women to talk about and normalize ambition for girls.” – Priyanka Chopra Jonas “I truly believe that today is my investment for tomorrow. I hope with all of the decisions that I’m taking now, and will take in the next ten years, the girl I am at that time will be happy. That’s really my quest in my life, is the pursuit of happiness. I feel joy in my job, I feel joy in home, I feel joy in my family. I feel joy in being able to create. And I just look at it as, if you’re not happy, don’t do it. Step away from it.” – Priyanka Chopra Jonas Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Ambition is a Girl’s Best Friend: Priyanka Chopra on Reconnecting with Our Dreams - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-32/ambition-is-a-girls-best-friend-priyanka-chopra-jonas-on-reconnecting-with-our-dreams/ Unfinished by Priyanka Chopra Jonas - https://amzn.to/2Zf5ps8 73 Questions with Priyanka Chopra, Vogue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOUV2rwMr1g Priyanka Chopra on the For the Love podcast (Youtube) - https://youtu.be/G1k83Tx6U34 It’s Okay To Be a Late Bloomer: Forbes Magazine’s Rich Karlgaard - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-17/its-okay-to-be-a-late-bloomer-forbes-magazines-rich-karlgaard/ Late Bloomers: The Power of Patience in a World Obsessed with Early Achievement by Rich Karlgaard - https://amzn.to/4kvW1IC Miss World 2000 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_World_2000 Guest’s Links: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/priyankachopra/ Twitter - https://x.com/priyankachopra Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/priyankachopra Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/PriyankaChopraLive TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@priyankachopra.fp Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jen has been a quiet superfan of David Gate ever since discovering one of his poems on Instagram and instantly texting it to six friends. A British-born poet, writer, and visual artist, David explores themes of care, community, and spiritual resilience. Today, he joins Jen and Amy to talk about his latest work, A Rebellion of Care—a powerful blend of essays and poetry rooted in tenderness, authenticity, and resistance. From writing to flour milling and homesteading, David’s life is a living practice of nurturing both self and community with intention. Key highlights from this conversation include:  How radical tenderness can be an act of resistance Why are many people living  radicalized lives without realizing it, and often for things they don't truly care about How homesteading is a rebellion against modern food practices Reimagining masculinity and what it could look like in a better world Building community and friendship as a vital source of joy and support in life How anger and joy are companion emotions The sacredness of everyday practices Thought-provoking Quotes: “I did not want to have an email job and I did not want to be in meetings that could have been emails. I did not want to be on Slack. I just didn't want that to be what I was spending my time doing. I loved caring for people, and I loved creating and writing, and I got to do that within the church world.” – David Gate “It's just very hard not to be cynical about everything and what I found was that I was cynical because I really, really cared. And, because I really, really cared, everything was just so overwhelming, and the easiest way to deal with that was to shut down and be cynical and be snarky. But, I realized that I had to press through and embrace what was behind that cynicism. so I had to really embrace my own earnestness and my own care in the world and concentrate on what I wanted to build rather than what I wanted to tear down.” – David Gate “It’s a constant battle to speak the truth. Even things we all know It can be difficult to say, if it's not something that is normally said, and it's not something that is normally expressed, so you have to fight for that and you have to fight for your experience of the truth. You have to fight for your story. You have to fight for all of that.” – David Gate “I think it's very, very difficult for men to reach for emotional honesty because everything tells you that you're failing if you do that. But it's the most important work right now. And so much of what men are actually looking for in this world, intimacy, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, companionship, adventure, excitement, is on the other side of reaching for that emotional honesty.” – David Gate Resources Mentioned in This Episode: A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate - https://amzn.to/4jjf87X Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand by Jeff Chu - https://amzn.to/3GnS21w Cultivating Belonging and Evolving Faith with Jeff Chu - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/cultivating-belonging-and-evolving-faith-with-jeff-chu/ Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/ Armando Veve, Illustrator - https://www.instagram.com/armandoveve/ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3YHKgpw Sinners film (2025) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/ Malaprop's Bookstore, Asheville - https://www.malaprops.com/ Guest’s Links: Website - https://www.davidgatepoet.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/davidgatepoet/ Substack - https://substack.com/@davidgatepoet Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices