Dina Saleh is the Regional Director of the Near East, North Africa, and Europe Division at the International Fund for Agricultural Development (IFAD) – the only specialized global development institution exclusively focused on rural transformation. With more than 20 years of international experience, Dina has spearheaded agriculture and rural development initiatives across Eastern Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia. She has also worked with both the private sector and international organizations like the UN, gaining a unique perspective on development across fragile and conflict-affected regions.

We begin our conversation by exploring Dina’s journey, starting with her early life in Yemen and Kenya, where agriculture was intrinsic to her formative years through her family’s business in agricultural trade and her schooling. This sparked her passion for rural development and gave her firsthand insights into how food systems work, ultimately leading to her current role at IFAD.

We then move on to the multifaceted challenges of working in fragile states like Somalia & Sudan, where conflict, climate change, and the lack of infrastructure severely hinder agricultural productivity. Dina discusses the delicate balance of working with both pastoralists and settled farmers, addressing conflicts over land and resources through innovative infrastructure solutions, as well as community-driven governance.

Our discussion also delves into gender dynamics in rural development. Dina shares a striking example from Sudan, where women were initially barred from engaging in agricultural development initiatives. Working with local leaders, IFAD was able to empower women to participate in economic activities like food processing and home-based production. These success stories underscore the importance of patience and sustained effort in achieving long-term development goals.

Tune in to hear more about the role of agriculture in poverty reduction and how organizations like IFAD are adapting their strategies to meet the complex and dynamic needs of fragile states!

*****

Dina Saleh

IFAD: https://www.ifad.org/en/w/people/dina-saleh

*****

Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. 

X: https://x.com/fworldpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/

Website: https://f-world.org

Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), X (x.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

EPISODE RESOURCES:

Updated approach to IFAD engagement in fragile situations https://www.ifad.org/en/w/publications/updated-approach-to-ifad-engagement-in-fragile-situations

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Intro

00:01:08 Dina’s story 

00:03:19 Subsistence farming & the shift to commercialization 

00:06:11 The roots of fragility in Yemen

00:08:35 Agriculture as a path to poverty reduction 

00:12:19 Defining food systems 

00:13:49 IFAD’s approach to nutrition in rural communities

00:16:18 What makes food systems fragile or resilient

00:18:12 Key trends in agriculture

00:20:00 What is IFAD?

00:23:26 IFAD in Somalia

00:28:44 Investment tools

00:31:18 IFAD’s financial instruments

00:33:15 How IFAD’s financing helps vulnerable populations

00:35:30 Role of technology in helping farmers

00:39:20 IFAD’s engagement in fragile contexts

00:45:20 Balancing crisis response & prevention

00:49:29 Measuring impact & results in fragile states

00:52:58 Working in conflict zones

00:56:15 Real-life challenges in fragile communities

00:59:45 Gender-specific challenges in rural development

01:03:30 Development misconceptions

01:08:19 Food self-sufficiency vs. trade

01:12:02 Fair trade & value for farmers

01:14:36 Water - food - energy nexus

01:18:05 Obstacles to coordination

01:20:15 Role of fertilizer 

01:22:28 Hope for the future

01:25:27 Wrap-up

Philippe Vogeleer is a chartered director specialized in partnerships between companies, governments, and international organizations. Until March 2024 he was the Global Head of Corporate Business Development for Vodafone. Prior to joining Vodafone, Philippe held senior positions for Ooredoo, Orange, and Deloitte. He has lived in 10 countries and worked in more than 100. He holds a master’s degree in law, a master’s degree in media and communications, and an Executive MBA. Philippe now advises a small number of companies as Non-Executive Director and supports the work of international charities, including Global Citizen. He is also a Visiting Lecturer at INSEAD.

We start our conversation by learning about Philippe’s international background, his early interest in human development, and how he discovered the importance of mobile phones and satellite technology. We then take a stroll through the decades with Philippe highlighting the big business opportunities for the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) sector in each time period - from radio waves in the 1980s and 90s, to networks and services in the 2000s and 2010s. He also reminds us that most people don’t have a laptop, accessing digital tools only on mobile phones, and that today’s opportunity lies in bringing access to the devices.  

We then shift to discussing how we can define the ICT sector and what we mean by digitalization. Also, we ask Philippe to help us understand what fragility looks like on the ground, from an ICT perspective, and how the ICT industry and digitalization can help counter fragility. This leads us to talk about what is needed to build a business case in fragile states or even in conflict areas, how you can engage external partners, and how to convince internal decision makers to take on the risk of investing under more difficult conditions. We also discuss the benefits of digitalization for governments, the main obstacles to closing the digital divide, and the role of AI in digitalization. We wrap up our conversation by considering the finite nature of money, how it can best catalyze digitalization, and the potential future for the ICT industry.

Watch or listen to the episode for so many more insights from Philippe Vogeleer!

*****

Philippe Vogeleer

philippe.vogeleer@globalpartners4digitaldevelopment.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/global-partners-for-digital-development

*****

Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. 

X: https://x.com/fworldpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/

Website: https://f-world.org

Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), X (x.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Introduction

00:02:11 Philippe’s background – people, places, ideas that charted his path

00:08:16 ICT’s big business opportunities through the decades

00:14:02 What is digitalization? What is the ICT sector?

00:18:13 What is fragility? What does it look like from an ICT perspective?

00:26:15 How can ICT and digitalization help counter fragility?

00:34:30 The business case for digitalization in fragile states and low-income countries

00:45:31 Digitalization benefits for governments

00:54:30 Obstacles to closing the digital divide

01:00:28 The role of AI in digitalization: risks or benefits

01:08:56 The finite nature of money & how to best catalyze digitalization

01:14:01 Potential future for the ICT industry

01:21:03 Wrap-up

Stefan Dercon is Professor of Economic Policy at Oxford University, where he also directs the Center for the Study of African Economics. The author of 5 books and many studies, Stefan has had a distinguished career as an academic and policy advisor on economic development. His accomplishments are many. To name just a few:  between 2011 and 2017, he was Chief Economist of the Department of International Development (DFID), the government department in charge with the UK’s aid policy and spending; between 2020-2022, he was the Development Policy Advisor to successive Foreign Secretaries at the UK’s Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

Stefan is a virtuoso of development! His approach to our conversation was equal parts exciting and instructive, a style that also comes across in his writing, making his book very hard to put down.

We start by learning about Stefan: his experience growing up in Belgium, being taught by Catholic priests about African socialism, Ujamaa and Julius Nyerere, and Marx and discovering his interest in economics as a means of pursuing development. His early career in Tanzania and Ethiopia highlighted the relationship between risk and poverty and the need to consider uncertainty when engaging in policy advice or research. We then shift to talking about the four propositions that compete as diagnoses of core problems of poverty and development that Stefan outlines in his book: poor initial endowments, market failures that trap the poor in poverty, market failures that are costly for poor countries, weak institutions. He gives us an overview and tells us why the propositions fall short on explaining the successes and failures of development. We also talk about the most important trends in development in recent decades: the dramatic decrease in poverty globally, the Africanization of poverty, and the increasing concentration of poverty in fragile states.

The conversation then turns to the elites, what values drive them, and why would they gamble on a development bargain.  We talk about the role of natural resources, political systems, and how external actors can influence the emergence of development bargains. We also discuss the role of Western and Chinese elites in development bargains and what is good policy advice.

*****

Stefan Dercon

Website: https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/people/stefan-dercon

X: https://twitter.com/gamblingondev

LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/stefan-dercon-45927b104

*****

Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. 

X: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/

Website: https://f-world.org

Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Video editing by: Alex Mitran - x.com/alexmmitran, linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran

EPISODE RESOURCES

Stefan Dercon, “Gambling on Development: Why some Countries Win and Others Lose,” Hurst, London, 2022. https://www.gamblingondevelopment.com

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Intro

00:01:24 Stefan’s background

00:02:49 Economics of poverty

00:04:16 Connection between risk & poverty

00:08:16 Brief overview of development thinking

00:14:57 Recent trends in development

00:19:55 The Africanization of poverty & What is fragility

00:25:39 The problem of fixed mental models of fragility

00:28:47 Who are the elites

00:41:11 The gambling in development bargains

00:47:24 What values drive the elites

00:54:25 Natural resource & political systems in dev. bargains

00:58:51 The role of Western & Chinese elites in dev. bargains

01:09:14 Are the elite bargains in the West still dev. bargains

01:19:09 Citizens’ role in dev. bargains

01:29:22 External actors & the emergence of dev. bargains

01:41:28 “Peace is ugly” – can international institutions accept it

01:51:20 Development is 50% history & 50% agency

02:00:40 Private sector role in the dev. bargain

02:09:48 What is good policy advice

02:19:56 Wrap-up

Hannes Mueller is a tenured researcher at the Institute for Economic Analysis, a researcher center of the Spanish National Research Council. He also directs the master’s program in Data Science for Decision Making at the Barcelona School of Economics. Most recently, his research focus has been on how conflict can be predicted using millions of newspaper articles – a project which drives the conflictforecast.org website. This research project has become a key resource for global work on conflict prevention and has led to collaborations with the Spanish Central Bank, the German Federal Foreign Office, the UK Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office, the UN, World Bank, and many others.

This conversation was a tour de force and covered a lot of topics: from taxes and trust, to fiscal capacity as a dimension of state capacity, to fragility and the macroeconomic implications of violent conflict, to forecasting conflict using machine learning and implications for policy makers.

Hannes gives us a live demonstration of conflictforecast.org and if you’re interested in how AI can help us forecast conflict then this is the conversation for you!

*****

Hannes Mueller

Website: https://www.hannesfelixmueller.com

Conflict forecast: https://conflictforecast.org

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannes-mueller-research/

*****

Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. 

X: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/

Website: https://f-world.org

Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), X (x.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

EPISODE RESOURCES

Timothy Besley and Hannes Mueller. 2012. Estimating the Peace Dividend: The Impact of Violence on House Prices in Northern Ireland. American Economic Review.

Timothy Besley, Hannes Mueller, Fiscal Capacity and State Fragility In: Macroeconomic Policy in Fragile States. Eds: Ralph Chami, Raphael Espinoza, and Peter Montiel, Oxford University Press (2021). International Monetary Fund. DOI: 10.1093/oso/9780198853091.003.0009

Hannes Mueller, Christopher Rauh, The Hard Problem of Prediction for Conflict Prevention, Journal of the European Economic Association, Volume 20, Issue 6, December 2022

Hannes Mueller, Christopher Rauh, & Alessandro Ruggieri. 2022. Dynamic Early Warning and Action Model, Cambridge Working Papers in Economics 2236.

TIMESTAMPS

(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:01:17) Hannes’s background

(00:03:26) Shock therapy in Poland vs. Russia

(00:05:42) How Hannes’s interest in politics shapes his research

(00:09:09) Institution formation, fragility, & fiscal capacity

(00:16:05) Trust, taxation, & public services

(00:22:06) What is fragility

(00:29:32) Relationship between fragility & violent conflict

(00:33:11) Macroeconomic implications of conflict

(00:37:21) Does conflict always lead to fragility

(00:41:21) Forecasting fragility vs causal understanding

(00:43:42) Human factors & forecasting fragility

(00:50:42) Prevention & forecasting

(00:55:09) Why is conflict prediction a hard problem

(00:58:19) Machine learning for conflict prevention

(01:03:21) What is a good model for conflict prevention?

(01:11:05) Text availability by language for training the model

(01:15:54) Conflictforecast.org demo

(01:25:31) What can you ask the model & what you shouldn’t ask

(01:37:47) How can the model inform policy action & prevention

(01:44:36) How can conflictforecast.org augment human decision making

(01:49:51) The role of stabilizing factors in cross country comparisons

(01:54:22) Hannes’s data wish list

(02:01:26) Do LLMs like ChatGPT impact the model’s performance

(02:04:37) Is there a role for sentiment analysis

(02:08:45) Future research goals

(02:13:08) Institutional myopia

(02:15:27) Should we bring back salons

(02:19:15) Wrap-up

Seth Kaplan is a Visiting Fellow with the Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange. He is also a Professorial Lecturer at the School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University, Senior Adviser for the Institute for Integrated Transitions (IFIT), and consultant to the World Bank, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), USAID, and the U.S. Department of State. Seth is the author of three books: “Fixing Fragile States: A New Paradigm for Development” (2008); “Betrayed: Promoting Inclusive Development in Fragile States (2013); and “Human Rights in Thick and Thin Societies: Universality Without Uniformity” (2018). His new book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time,” was published on October 17, 2023.

This was an incredibly interesting conversation and full of insights about the fragility present right now in one of the most prosperous countries in the world! We start by talking about how Seth’s experience with fragility around the world helped him spot the fragility present in America’s own neighborhoods and what motivated him to write the book. We then discuss what fragile neighborhoods look like, what makes a neighborhood fragile, and the role of norms and close relationships in the fragility of our communities. Seth makes the point that fragility is about relationships, whether those are found at the local community level, between communities, or at level of national institutions – and the nature of those relationships or their absence is what makes fragility emerge.

We also talk about why we have fragile neighborhoods and what policies and factors have contributed the most to this problem. Our conversation touches upon the role of public service and on the “poverty-industrial-complex” & institutional obstacles to addressing fragility in neighborhoods. Seth also makes the case for the value of prevention in terms of saving social, human, and economic capital and highlights marriage as one of the institutions that can help prevent social decay. We wrap up our conversation by discussing the need for reviving the American Dream and bringing back into our neighborhoods the robust institutions and instincts for civil society that Alexis de Tocqueville observed two centuries ago.  

Listen to the episode and read Seth’s book for so many more ideas on how we can help neighborhoods exit fragility!

*****

Dr. Seth D. Kaplan

Website: https://sethkaplan.org

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethkaplan28

Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University: https://sais.jhu.edu/users/skapla13

Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange: https://www.mercatus.org/scholars/seth-d-kaplan

Institute for Integrated Transitions: https://ifit-transitions.org/experts/seth-d-kaplan/

Seth D. Kaplan. 2023. Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time. https://amzn.to/3la0FSG

*****

Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Video editing by: Alex Mitran - Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), X (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Intro

00:01:32 Seth’s experience

00:04:00 What fragile neighborhoods look like?

00:10:21 Why Seth wrote this book?

00:16:48 The role of norms & closeness in relationships

00:24:30 Migration & social cohesion in neighborhoods

00:30:19 What's not working?

00:37:25 Problems in fragile neighborhoods

00:41:50 Homelessness

00:48:54 Why we have fragile neighborhoods?

00:57:34 The hero’s journey: rethinking meritocracy

01:06:07 Placemaking & the role of jobs

01:12:44 The role of public service & elected politicians

01:17:38 The poverty industrial complex: obstacles to well being

01:26:50 Fragility prevention in neighborhoods

01:34:13 Lessons for international development

01:41:07 The case for reviving the American Dream

01:55:43 Wrap-up

Laura Frigenti is the Chief Executive Officer of the Global Partnership for Education (GPE). She has had an amazing career in international development working across Latin America, Africa, and Europe over almost four decades. Laura has held leadership positions in national government agencies, the World Bank, NGOs, and the private sector. Throughout her career, she focused on a range of issues, from trade and private sector development, to infrastructure, financial sector reform, and education. Laura was appointed Director General of the Italian Overseas Development Agency, with the responsibility of setting up the newly created agency. Laura also served as chief of staff to the President of the World Bank.

We start by talking about Laura’s journey, from growing up in Italy to how studying abroad sparked her interest in development. We move on to Laura’s views on development, the main obstacles that stand in the way of achieving development (political will, resources, and human capital), and how we can foster the political will necessary for development to take place. Laura then also shares with us her perspective on the evolution of thinking around fragility and how, over the last 20 years, it has become clear that fragility is a global problem. She highlights two main dimensions of fragility - individual and institutional - and how widespread institutional fragility acts as an obstacle to overcoming individual fragility.

Our conversation then focuses on education. We discuss the relationship between education and fragility, the key challenges facing the education sector today, and the need for education to create skills that are needed by the private sector. Laura sees education as foundational and going beyond individual learning - it is the cornerstone to creating a strong state, economic growth, political stability, as well as a stronger and more stable society. We also talk about the role of technology in closing existing educational gaps and whether technology can help increase access to education for girls in places like Afghanistan. Laura then explains the need for a new narrative for education in the midst of competing global crises and helps us understand the Global Partnership for Education’s unique approach.

Listen to the episode for so many more insights on development and education from Laura Frigenti!

*****

Laura Frigenti

Website: https://www.globalpartnership.org/who-we-are/ceo

Twitter: https://twitter.com/GPECEO

*****

About the Global Partnership for Education 

GPE is a shared commitment to ending the world’s learning crisis. We mobilize partners and funds to support nearly 90 lower-income countries to transform their education systems so that every girl and boy can get the quality education they need to unlock their full potential and contribute to building a better world.  For more than 20 years, GPE has mobilized partners and funds to get 160 million more girls and boys in school and improve learning in partner countries around the world.  

To learn more: https://www.globalpartnership.org

Twitter: https://twitter.com/gpforeducation

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction

01:29 Laura’s background

04:11 What is development?

06:37 Top three obstacles in the way of development

08:37 Options to foster political will

13:17 A perspective on fragility today

16:46 The relationship between education & fragility

23:53 The key challenges facing the education sector today

30:15 Is there a smell test for new ideas, new plans, grand strategies to change?

36:15 Education that responds to private sector needs

39:36 The role of technology in closing existing educational gaps

44:59 Can technology help increase access to learning for girls?

48:13 The need for a new narrative for education

52:33 The Global Partnership for Education’s approach

56:37 When will our planet be fully literate and numerate?

58:50 Wrap-up

Dan Runde is Senior Vice President at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), where he directs the Project on Prosperity and Development. He previously worked for the U.S. Agency for International Development (or USAID), the World Bank’s International Finance Corporation, and in investment banking with experience in Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. Dan recently wrote a new book called "The American Imperative: Reclaiming Global Leadership Through Soft Power." This is the first book in decades to look at U.S. non-military power through the lens of great power competition. He is also the host of "Building the Future: Freedom, Prosperity, and Foreign Policy," a podcast series focused on updating the United States’ soft power playbook to meet the hopes and aspirations of developing countries.

This was an incredibly fun conversation and chock-full of insights! We start by talking about Dan’s path, from growing up in a family that taught him the importance of public service, to his experience of working for USAID, the World Bank’s IFC, and currently for CSIS. Dan then talks about his views as a conservative internationalist, and why we need the trade, security, and multilateral system that was designed and built by the US, in partnership with others, after WWII. He goes on to highlight that while the system is necessary, it cannot function in the absence of leadership and asks us to imagine which set of values we would rather have shape the world we live in.

We then shift to how global development is going to be increasingly refracted through the lens of great power competition, where the tools of soft power become even more critical. Dan’s framing of development as applied foreign policy helps make the concept more real and applicable. We also discuss the areas of cooperation between US and Europe, as well as some of the tensions still present between these long-standing partners. Afterwards, we touch upon the thorny topic of mining, minerals, and climate change and the much-needed realization that decarbonization doesn't mean dematerialization. Our conversation then turns to the Global Fragility Act (GFA) and what the US needs to do to succeed in this new initiative. Dan sums up the top priorities for U.S. development efforts over the next five years: help Ukraine, close the digital divide, mining and minerals, nearshoring, and address corruption.  

Listen to the episode and pick up Dan’s book for so many more insights!

*****

Dan Runde

Website: https://www.csis.org/people/daniel-f-runde

Twitter: https://twitter.com/danrunde

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielfrunde/

*****

Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. 

Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/

Website: https://f-world.org

Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net

Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), Twitter (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

EPISODE RESOURCES:

Project on US Leadership in Development: https://www.csis.org/programs/project-us-leadership-development

Building the Future: Freedom, Prosperity, and Foreign Policy with Dan Runde: https://www.csis.org/podcasts/building-future-freedom-prosperity-and-foreign-policy-dan-runde

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Intro

00:01:32 Dan’s background

00:10:11 What is a conservative internationalist?

00:19:37 The world needs leadership not entropy

00:23:11 What is development & the role of political engagement in donor countries

00:33:19 What is fair vs. unfair global power competition?

00:45:15 What is soft power? Development is applied foreign policy

00:52:31 US – Europe cooperation vs competition in development

01:06:24 The Global Fragility Act – how to get it right

01:10:59 Priorities for U.S. development efforts in the next five years

Christopher Blattman is the Ramalee E. Pearson Professor of Global Conflict Studies at the University of Chicago’s Harris School of Public Policy, where he co-leads the Development Economics Center and the Obama Foundation Scholars Program. Chris also has affiliations with Innovations for Poverty Action (IPA), MIT’s Poverty Action Lab, the National Bureau for Economic Research, and the Center for Global Development. He has served as a consultant and adviser to the World Bank, the United Nations, and governments in Uganda, Liberia, Colombia, and the United States. This conversation was a lot of fun and we covered a lot of ground: from Sparta to Kiev, from the Peloponnesian War to the Iraq War, from Russia’s attack on Ukraine to the prospects of war between China and Taiwan, and so much more! We start by talking about Chris’s journey, from growing up in Ottawa to finding his way to international work and then eventually to conflict. We then shift to Chris’s book, “Why We Fight”, and the concept of fragility. Chris highlights how fragility sets the stage upon which the five reasons why we fight push a society away from bargaining to using violence or as he puts it: “when killing an Archduke in some random Balkan city can send the world to war.” The five reasons for war that Chris identifies in his book are: unchecked interests, intangible incentives, uncertainty, commitment problems, and misperceptions. We discuss whether there is a potential hierarchy among then, how they are connected, which of the five reasons played a role in Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, as well as how intangible incentives can be seen in the Ukrainians’ resolution to protect their country. Chris also sums up decades of research and practical insights into 10 general principles that can set the world on the path to peace. We talk about how leaders are tempted by grand visions, but in reality, change happens incrementally – too bad 3% better doesn’t make for a good slogan! Listen to the episode for so many more insights from Chris Blattman!

*****

Dr. Christopher Blattman

Website: https://chrisblattman.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/cblatts

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisblattman

*****

EPISODE RESOURCES:

Blattman,Christopher (2022). Why We Fight: The Roots of War and the Paths to Peace. New York: Viking Press

The prospects for war with China: Why I see a serious chance of World War III in the next decade https://chrisblattman.com/blog/2022/10/26/the-prospects-for-war-with-china-why-i-see-a-serious-chance-of-world-war-iii-in-the-next-decade/

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Intro

00:55 Chris’s background – people, places, ideas

02:56 How Chris approaches risk

05:08 How culture enables risk taking

07:17 A potential correlation between risk taking & creativity

10:50 What is fragility?

12:57 Dividing the pie & fragility

15:32 The role of the past in understanding fragility

18:29 When do we actually fight

22:41 The five reasons for wars

26:49 How to think about uncertainty vs. commitment problems

30:46 How intangible incentives change the nature of commitment problems

33:07 What is the interplay between uncertainty and technology

38:16 How interdependence failed to stop Russia’s attack on Ukraine

44:58 Is there a threshold of violence that we should accept in order to avoid war?

47:56 Why the West missed the Ukrainian resolve

53:12 Bad guys & good guys support propaganda

56:52 Can you change people’s misperceptions

01:01:19 Which leaders take their country to war

01:05:06 Wicked problems

01:07:44 When misperceptions are desirable

01:11:29 Chris’s 10 commandments

01:16:50 The Grandiose Vision 2050 OR the 3% better realistic goal

01:19:16 Working on the margin & anti-politics machines

01:21:46 Chris’s views on China & prospects for a war w/ Taiwan

01:24:41 Is Taiwan drawing inspiration from Ukraine

01:26:11 Forecasting vs understanding the root causes of conflict

01:29:42 What are the most interesting problems to work on in the next few decades

Seth Kaplan is a Visiting Fellow with the Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange. He is also a Professorial Lecturer at the School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University, Senior Adviser for the Institute for Integrated Transitions (IFIT), and consultant to the World Bank, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), USAID, and the U.S. Department of State. Seth is the author of three books: “Fixing Fragile States: A New Paradigm for Development” (2008); “Betrayed: Promoting Inclusive Development in Fragile States (2013); and “Human Rights in Thick and Thin Societies: Universality Without Uniformity” (2018). His new book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time,” will be published in 2023. This episode is a grand tour of Seth’s core ideas about fragile and conflict-affected countries. We start by talking about Seth’s professional journey, which began out of his passion for travel and insatiable curiosity about why some societies work better than others. We then shift to the concept of fragility. Seth argues that social dynamics shape the institutions, understood both as “the rules of the game,” as well as the state apparatus. The pathways in and out of fragility or conflict depend on the interplay between formal institutions and informal social rules which govern collective action. Fragility and conflict can be prevented if social groups can come together and chart a unifying course of action that leads them towards prosperity – in other words, if they can manage political and social transitions. We then explore how these factors interact with politics, economics, and security. Seth provides a sweeping overview of situations where countries and communities made “good enough” progress to avoid collapse and even prosper, from Nigeria and Somaliland to Guatemala, India, and Indonesia. In most cases, leaders and elites were able to rally around a common storyline that enabled them achieve unity of purpose and navigate through tough transitions. We also talk about the hard cases, from Libya to Syria, Afghanistan, and Ukraine. The conversation delves into many fascinating tangents. We discuss the work of the Institute for Integrated Transitions (IFIT), and how it deploys its framework in Libya and Colombia. Seth also argues that multilateral organizations like the World Bank must create the conditions for brave leaders who can move their societies forward rather than focus on purely technical policy advice or project financing. We conclude with the reasons for hope in fragile states, and with a reflection on the skills needed to be an effective operator in the most complex societies (hint – it’s about the human soul). ***** Dr. Seth D. Kaplan Website: https://sethkaplan.org LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethkaplan28 Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University: https://sais.jhu.edu/users/skapla13 Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange: https://www.mercatus.org/scholars/seth-d-kaplan Institute for Integrated Transitions: https://ifit-transitions.org/experts/seth-d-kaplan/ ***** Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), Twitter (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

Alexandre Marc is a political scientist and economist with over 30 years of experience working in areas of conflict and fragility across four continents. Alexandre was the Chief Specialist for Fragility, Conflict and Violence at the World Bank, and is the lead author of the United Nations-World Bank flagship report Pathways for Peace: Inclusive Approaches to Preventing Violent Conflict (2018). He also co-led the preparation of the World Bank’s Strategy for Fragility, Conflict, and Violence 2020-2025. This is the second episode in a three-part series with Alexandre covering the Pathways for Peace report, the stories that underpin its core ideas, and his recent work on the geopolitics of fragility. We start by talking about why conflict prevention should constantly be on the minds of political actors, civil society, the private sector, and international organizations. Alexandre paints a vivid picture of how the ebb and flow of crises in the absence of prevention can get a country trapped in a downward spiral of conflict and how countries should aim to surf above the narrow corridor between peace and conflict. We then discuss how communication about the risk of conflict can interact with expectations about the trajectory of a country and the delicate balance between raising an alarm without degenerating into alarmism; and how to learn what works in prevention by looking at countries that come close to conflict but manage to avoid it. Our conversation then moves on to dealing with “wild cards” in prevention – from extremist groups to external actors – and how we can engage in prevention when key actors have an interest in maintaining or starting a conflict. We also talk about the need to capitalize on opportune moments to help a country get on the pathway to peace and whether there are red lines that international organizations should cross in order to prevent conflict. Further, we discuss the role of the private sector in preventing conflict and the conditions in which it should play a role. Alexandre makes it clear that while the private sector is an important actor, it is no panacea and warns us not to force the private sector into situations where it can only succeed by being a bad actor. As a preview to our next episode with Alexandre on the geopolitics of fragility, we wrap up this conversation by talking about prevention in an interconnected world: how the global stage has changed since the release of the report in 2018, what should motivate citizens in Western countries to care about prevention, and the shifting roles and interests of China, Russia, Iran, and Turkey. Listen to the episode to hear Alexandre deliver a masterclass in prevention! ***** Dr. Alexandre Marc Website: https://www.alexandremarc.org Twitter: https://twitter.com/AlexanMarc1 International Institute for Strategic Studies: https://www.iiss.org/people/conflict-security-and-development/alexandre-marc Institute for Integrated Transitions: https://ifit-transitions.org/experts/alexandre-marc/ ***** Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), Twitter (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

Sarah Cliffe is the director of New York University’s Center on International Cooperation (CIC). Prior to that, she held several leadership positions at the World Bank and United Nations. Sarah pioneered the work on fragile and conflict-affected states at the World Bank, serving also as the Special Representative for the 2011 World Development Report on Conflict, Security, and Development. At the UN, she spearheaded efforts to help countries build civilian capacities to strengthen peacebuilding and post-conflict transitions. Sarah’s vast experience ranges from countries as diverse as Afghanistan, Rwanda, South Africa, Indonesia, and Timor-Leste. She began her career in the United Kingdom and has degrees from Cambridge University and Columbia University. This episode is full of big questions from the very beginning. To start, we speak to Sarah about her formative years, and how her early impressions of fragility and conflict were actually shaped by her upbringing in a mining town in Wales at a time of social upheaval in the United Kingdom. She also shares her perspectives on what communities at risk in the UK, South Africa, and Rwanda had in common – and why some were more resilient. Our conversation then turns more conceptual, as we take a look at how the insights of her work at the World Bank on conflict, security, and development can help us understand today’s global fragility trends. We then explore in depth the big challenges on the world stage ahead of the UN’s General Assembly meetings in September. How are the growing tensions between the US, Russia, and China affecting global governance, especially the UN? How has Russia’s invasion of Ukraine divided the international community and what are the perspectives of developing countries? What factors have influenced responses to refugees from Ukraine and beyond? How is the future of multilateralism intertwined with domestic politics? And are there any silver linings to geopolitical fragmentation and the new Cold War between the US and China? We conclude on a high note, talking about reasons to be hopeful – listen to the episode to hear Sarah share many more insights into geopolitics, fragility, and the future of global governance. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Dr. Abdirahman Duale Beileh is a Somali economist, professor, politician, philanthropist, poet, and well acclaimed song writer. In August 2022, Dr. Beileh finished his term as Somalia’s Minister of Finance, having served for the past five years. Previously, he was Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation from 2014 to 2015. Dr. Beileh has been a driving force behind the reestablishment of the Somali state, and the country’s return to the international scene. We start our conversation with memories from Dr. Beileh’s childhood home outside the city of Hargeisa. An opportunity to study and work abroad in the United Arab Emirates and the United States drove him to question the situation in his native Somalia, eventually leading him to pursue a 30-year career at the African Development Bank (AfDB). We then discuss Somalia’s transition from a failed state to one where elections and a peaceful transition of power recently took place. We explore what went right and the remaining challenges for the future. Dr. Beileh shares his experience of working with the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Bank, and other partners on issues such as debt relief and the process of building from scratch an international coalition to support Somalia. He passionately talks about the challenges of instilling a “tax-payer mentality” in a country where most people only experience of taxation as extortion by the violent extremist group Al-Shabaab, as well as the urgent need to finance the security sector. He further shares his experience of collaborating with the finance ministers of Somalia’s Federal Member States (FMS) and outlines his approach to building trust with citizens, federal member state governments, and international partners. And his toolkit is wide-ranging, from transparent communication to music and poetry. Finally, Dr. Beileh sets out a compelling 10-year vision for a Somalia: a country that is self-sufficient in food production, where the link between floods and famine is broken through good governance, and where young people can earn a quality education and pursue their dreams.

Alexandre Marc is a political scientist and economist with over 30 years of experience working in areas of conflict and fragility across four continents. Alexandre was the Chief Specialist for Fragility, Conflict and Violence at the World Bank, and is the lead author of the United Nations-World Bank flagship report Pathways for Peace: Inclusive Approaches to Preventing Violent Conflict (2018). He also co-led the preparation of the World Bank’s Strategy for Fragility, Conflict, and Violence 2020-2025. This is the first episode in a series with Alexandre covering the Pathways for Peace report, the stories that underpin its core ideas, and his recent work on the geopolitics of fragility. We start by talking about Alexandre’s upbringing and how traveling with his parents – an adventure worthy of an Indiana Jones movie - led him to discover the wonders of different cultures. Experiences such as staying in an archeological mission in Egypt, crossing Afghanistan and Iran by car, and a road trip from Paris to Jordan sparked Alexandre’s interest in how different cultures coexist and led him to try to understand conflict. We then talk about to the relationship between the price of bananas and witchcraft in Cameroon – and we sure had questions about it! Alexandre then shares with us how caring about people, culture, and history helps you better understand the origins and dynamics of conflict, the need to differentiate between conflict and violent conflict, and how the rise in what he calls “conflicts of fragility” led to the Pathways for Peace report. The conversation also explores how actors, institutions, and structural factors can push a country towards peace or conflict, why peace is desirable, the dangers of horizontal inequality, and the importance of dignity. And there’s so much more! Listen to the episode to hear Alexandre share many more insights into fragility, conflict, and peace.

Jonathan Marley is a Policy Analyst in Crises and Fragility at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), where he leads the States of Fragility team and their work. Jonathan is a former soldier and academic - he served in the Irish military, was deployed as a peacekeeper, and taught military officers at the Irish Defense Forces Military College. We kick off this episode talking about Jonathan’s career in the military, his life as a peacekeeper in Kosovo at a time of experimentation around ideas in civil-military cooperation, and how he and his fellow soldiers got to try them out in real time. Jonathan then shares with us what it’s like to be a peacekeeper in the Balkans and, spoiler alert, no two days were the same. However, there were some fundamental constants: building relationships with people and building trust. Then the conversation moves on to the differences between peacekeeping, peacebuilding, and development. Jonathan shares his observations about the missing operational middle in development planning, and what can be learned from how the military makes and implements its plans. We also touched on how the war in Ukraine making your morning coffee more expensive is an example of the need for systems thinking and multidimensional analysis. The conversation also explores what should development professionals know about diplomacy, whether we can think about a fragility continuum, and what’s going on with the multiple understandings of fragility among the humanitarian-development-peace actors. And there’s still more! Jonathan’s life experience allowed for a conversation rich in topics and deep in insights. Listen to the episode to hear Jonathan share many more insights into fragility and resilience. The episode was recorded on March 18th, 2022.

Katherine Marshall is professor of the practice of development, conflict, and religion in the Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University and one of the world's foremost experts on the nexus between faith, ethics, and development. In her 35 years with the World Bank, Katherine was a pioneer for women in international development and led the Bank's work in some of the world's most fragile and poor nations. She was also one of the first international development experts to work on the critical importance of religion in global development. In the first part of our conversation, we talk about Katherine’s experience as a woman as she joined the World Bank in 1971, what was then seen as new ideas about women as actors in development, the slowly dawning awareness of the importance of girls’ education, and the need to defend both the roles of women within the institution and the roles of women in development. Katherine then shares with us how she became fascinated by the topic of religion at a time development professionals rarely spoke about or thought much about it. She calls it an adventure with a large number of large blind spots. It was fascinating because it took the work and the institution of the World Bank itself into a new area of ethics, reaching into more fundamental questions about what development is and how different economic models affect people's lives. We also talk about how development and religious organizations relate to different established orthodoxies. One of the ironies Katherine mentions is the religious sounding language used to describe many aspects of the work of development institutions - people go on missions and they follow a doctrine that relies on unseen forces and invisible hands. Listen to the episode to hear Katherine discuss many more fascinating connections between religion and development. The episode was recorded on April 9th, 2021. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan . Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Free License to use this track in your video can be downloaded at www.wintergatan.net.

Steen Sonne Andersen is currently the Ambassador of Denmark to Burkina Faso, Niger, Chad, and Benin. He is based in Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso. An economist by training, Steen began his career working on local governance in Denmark’s poorer regions. He then worked with international development agencies in India, Nepal, Bhutan, the Philippines, Indonesia, and Tanzania focusing primarily on the education sector. In the start of our conversation, Steen talks about the early days of his professional journey, when a series of urban development projects funded by the European Union in Denmark sparked his curiosity in understanding community resilience and state modernization. We then talk about the process of state building in the Sahel: Steen paints a vivid picture of fragility and conflict drivers in the region, from water scarcity and rapid population growth, to enduring poverty and violent extremism. He also outlines Denmark’s aid priorities to prevent further conflict and help stabilize the Sahel through support for effective water management infrastructure and security and justice reform. Throughout the conversation, we talk about social protection and the meaning of solidarity in the Sahel, how values shape community resilience, the social contract in post-colonial states, and the role of education in helping women and girls realize their potential. The episode was recorded on May 23rd, 2021. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan . Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Free License to use this track in your video can be downloaded at www.wintergatan.net.

Koen Davidse is the World Bank Group’s Executive Director from the Netherlands since 2018. He represents a group of countries that also includes Armenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Georgia, Israel, North Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, and Ukraine. Previously, he served as the Deputy Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General in Mali and held senior positions in the Netherlands’ Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In the beginning of our conversation, Koen shares his reasons for choosing a career in diplomacy and development, with stints in India, Sudan, Mali, and also at the World Bank and UN. We then talk about why security sector reform (SSR) that builds effective but also affordable militaries, police, and justice institutions is essential to make progress on economic development in fragile states. Next, we delve deeper into his work in Sudan and Mali. We discuss the challenges of being an honest broker in the implementation of the peace agreement leading to South Sudan’s independence in 2011 and what it’s like to lead a peacekeeping mission aiming to bring stability in Mali. Throughout the episode, Koen shares his insights about why we need peace entrepreneurs to make lasting change, what it takes to achieve better coordination between peace, development, and humanitarian actors, and how to put vulnerable people at the center of global efforts to help fragile states. This episode was recorded on June 18, 2021. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan . Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Free License to use this track in your video can be downloaded at www.wintergatan.net.

Dr. Shanta Devarajan is a professor at Georgetown University’s Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service, where he teaches development economics. Previously, Shanta worked for nearly three decades at the World Bank, where he was the Senior Director for Development Economics (DEC) and served as acting Chief Economist. This episode starts with Shanta’s account of his early work on indicators to measure state fragility at the World Bank, and how his understanding of fragility has evolved over time. We then explore how country rankings are linked to aid allocations, and why venture capital is a better model to help countries escape the fragility trap than current practices. We also discuss how international financial institutions navigate the relationship with governments. Reflecting on his work prior to the Arab Spring, Shanta argues that development financing institutions should use knowledge and data to build greater trust with citizens – their ultimate clients. We then get more technical and discuss how taxation in oil-rich countries like South Sudan can promote solidarity, how conflict can shape government decisions on infrastructure development, and the role of macroeconomic policy in fragile states. This episode was recorded on April 14, 2021.

Sara Noshadi is an expert on the reconstruction of cultural heritage and creative economies in war-torn countries. She has developed and led national programs promoting unity and reconciliation through culture in Iraq after the fall of the Islamic State (2017), as well as in Afghanistan. Originally from Iran, Sara was trained as an anthropologist at the University of Tehran and worked at the National Center for Scientific Research in Paris. In this episode, Sara tells the story of how a trip to post-civil war Tajikistan led her to focus on culture as a force for solidarity and peace. We discuss why it is so difficult to work on this agenda in fragile and conflict-affected states, where typical economic development programs fail to take into account the complex role of culture in shaping project outcomes. Sara also shares her views on how using culture as a lens can help make urban planning or mining projects more effective, and why conflict-affected states would benefit from 30 year-long national cultural programs disconnected from donor funding cycles. Lastly, we talk about how cultural programming can help children and youth imagine a different future for themselves and new shared fictions for their countries. The episode was recorded on May 19, 2021.

Scott Guggenheim, an anthropologist by training, is one of the originators of community driven development (CDD). He has worked for the World Bank for over 30 years and served as a senior advisor to the President of Afghanistan, Ashraf Ghani. In this episode, Scott shares how his interest in anthropology started during a 6-month trip to Mexico as a 12-year old, and how an honest but controversial answer about the Vietnam War got him his first job at the World Bank. We then talk about how CDD started in Indonesia facilitated by the 1998 East Asia financial crisis, and how it was possible to build a national program driven by local community insights. We also discuss the importance of interdisciplinary work for development and the role of crises in driving innovation. In the second half of the conversation, we turn to Afghanistan. Scott shares insights gained during his time inside the presidential palace in Kabul, and his views on the existential challenges the country faces. We also talk about what could shift the path Afghanistan has been on for nearly half a century. The episode was recorded on April 11, 2021.