How can the UK music industry be both in crisis and booming? In 2024, the sector was worth a record £8 billion to the UK economy but at the same time, grassroots venues are closing, artists are struggling to tour, and AI threatens to steal musicians’ work for the profit of broligarchs. In this week’s episode, Sean Adams speaks with Tom Kiehl, CEO of UK Music, about the findings in the organisation’s brand new annual report This Is Music 2025. Together they unpack the contradictions of a sector growing on paper but straining at its foundations from slowing post-pandemic growth and the fight for fair AI regulation, to the obstacles making it harder for new artists breaking through. With reflections on Brexit’s lasting damage, AI’s issues with consent, and a new £1 grassroots levy, it’s a revealing look at an industry at a crossroads. Chapters 00:00 – The £8 Billion Paradox: Growth vs Crisis 03:30 – Who UK Music Represents and What It Does 07:30 – File-Sharing to AI: The Evolution of Rights Battles 13:30 – “Pro-Innovation” or Anti-Artist? AI and Copyright in 2025 18:30 – Levies, Inequality, and the Grassroots Squeeze 24:30 – Breaking Artists in a Post-Pandemic Landscape 29:30 – Rehearsal Spaces, Mentorship, and Missing Infrastructure 35:30 – Why Britain Needs a Music Export Office 41:30 – Ticketing Chaos, Regulation, and the Fan Experience 47:30 – What Fans Can Do: From Campaigns to Collective Power 52:30 – The Future of British Music: Soft Power and Survival Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe: Get weekly essays, interviews, and insights from the Drowned in Sound newsletter - exploring music, culture, and resistance. Links & Resources: Read UK Music’s This Is Music 2025 Report UK Music Official Website UK Music on Instagram Drowned in Sound Newsletter

How “sleazy” was Indie Sleaze, really - and was it ever a scene that Paul Smith of Maxïmo Park recognised himself in? At a time when the air was thick with lager and leather jackets, Smith was more inspired by art-school notebooks, Robert Wyatt, and the idea that pop could be poetry. In this conversation, the Maxïmo Park frontman joins Sean Adams who also lived through the era being retrospectively called “indie sleaze”, was at those early Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Franz Ferdinand, Bloc Party and Libertines shows, released records by Metric and Kaiser Chiefs, etc.  In this conversation they revisit the making of Maxïmo Park’s Mercury-nominated debut and reflect on what it meant to be outsiders during Britain’s mid-2000s indie boom. Recorded for the album’s twentieth anniversary, the pair unpack the contradictions of that moment - art rock vs lad rock and sincerity vs posturing whilst tracing how those tensions still shape British guitar music today. From signing to Warp Records and headlining the NME Awards Tour alongside Arctic Monkeys, Mystery Jets and We Are Scientists, to the band’s art-school roots, working-class perspectives, and enduring faith in pop’s emotional truth, this is a deeply human glance back at the legacy of one of the era’s most literate frontmen. Chapters 00:00 – Indie Sleaze, revisionism, and the myth of 200501:46 – Forming an art-school band and the noise scene that shaped them08:30 – From experimental roots to pop hooks: defining the Maxïmo Park DNA14:30 – Signing to Warp Records and finding a home for outsiders20:30 – The whirlwind year: Top of the Pops, the NME Tour, and the cost of success24:30 – Art rock, class, and being mislabeled “sleazy”31:30 – The politics of pop and the poetry of the everyday42:30 – Romance, resistance, and the belief that pop can still mean something Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe: Sign up to the Drowned in Sound newsletter for weekly insights on music, culture, and resistance. Links & Resources Maxïmo Park Official Website ‘The Rise and Fall of Indie Sleaze’ - BBC Podcast 20th Anniversary Edition of A Certain Trigger Paul Smith & Rachel Unthank Collaborative Album

Live music is nothing without the fans. Generating £5.2 billion to the UK economy PA, employing over 210,000 people and building the careers of those who contribute over £4bn to the export of live music, there is no doubting the UKs reputation as the international home of live music and the birthplace of the festival industry. Every pound of this economic success comes from a fans pocket and the House of Commons Culture Media and Sport committee have decided it’s finally time to put them in the centre of decision making, with a fan led review of Live and Electronic Music. This review aims to champion the areas that work, safeguard the areas under threat and ensure that the health and growth of live music is fair and accessible to all. Recorded live at Sŵn Festival in Cardiff, Sean Adams introduces a special panel arranged as part of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s Fan-Led Review into Live Music and Electronic Music - a landmark inquiry bringing music lovers together to discuss ideas to protect the live music industry and ensure it works in the best interests of music fans across the country.  The discussion draws fascinating parallels between football and music, two cultures built on passion, loyalty, and community, yet often structured around systems that treat fans as consumers, not stakeholders. Panellists Chair – Sam Duckworth  With a recording artist career as Get Cape. Wear Cape. Fly spanning 20 years, Sam has most recently been working with Music Venue Trust to advocate for greater fan input into Music industry decision making, co-founding the Music Fans Voice survey. Lord Kevin Brennan Lord Brennan is Chair of the Fan-Led Review of Live Music, on behalf of the Culture Media and Sport Committee. The Review is bringing music lovers together to discuss ideas to protect the live and electronic music industry and ensure it works in the best interests of music fans across the country. The aim is to produce a report to the Government setting out the perspectives of fans based on survey responses, stakeholder meetings and public engagement events. Lord Brennan has held positions as a Government Minister, former Chair of the APPG on Music and was a member of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, which produced reports on ‘The future of music festivals’ and ‘The economics of music streaming’. He is also a performing musician. Dr Lucy Bennett – Lecturer at Cardiff University’s School of Journalism, Media and Culture Lucy is a leading academic voice on music fandom and popular music culture. She co-founded the Fan Studies Network, has consulted for YouTube, and delivered analysis for the Recording Academy/Grammys. Widely published, she also provides expert commentary for the BBC, The Guardian and The Washington Post. Her teaching spans Media Fandom and Popular Music, Media & Culture, and she recently worked on the Music Fans’ Voice Survey, amplifying live music audiences. Cathy Long – CEO of Aposto Having worked with 64 football clubs at the Premier League (spearheading safety and fan experience) , The FSA and co-author of the Accessible Stadia Guide, Cathy is one of English Football’s leading fan experts and a passionate and experienced advocate for Equality and Safety within the game. Julian Jenkins  Julian Jenkins is a seasoned sports executive and entrepreneur with over 25 years of experience in the  global sports industry. He has held senior leadership roles across football, licensing, and commercial development, helping to grow fan engagement, brand value, and international partnerships. Julian now lead multiple ventures spanning professional women’s football, AI-driven sports analytics, and creative IP development, blending his passion for sport, community, and innovation. His work focuses on building sustainable models that connect clubs, fans, and brands in more meaningful ways. Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe:

With 41% of grassroots community music spaces at risk of closure due to financial pressures, what does the future hold for young musicians trying to break through? And what role can the wider industry and everyday fans play in keeping these vital pathways alive? In this special DiSpatch episode of the Drowned in Sound podcast, Emma Wilkes heads to Troxy in London for Youth Music's annual awards ceremony, which celebrates some of the stars of tomorrow and the grassroots projects behind them. Youth Music is the UK’s largest music charity, providing funding for hundreds of grassroots music organisations and supporting over 100,000 children and young people every year up and down the UK. Their work has never felt so urgent. Through conversations with industry leaders, grassroots organisers, and emerging artists, this episode explores what equal access to music looks like, the vital importance of grassroots opportunities for young people, and what music fans can actually do to help. From major label perspectives to Cambridge's rising rap talent, we hear how the music industry can and must support the next generation. Chapters:00:00 – Introduction: Who are Youth Music? 01:50 – Charlotte Edgeworth (Sony Music) on the industry’s role in supporting grassroots music. 05:50 – Dan Tsu (Lyrix Organix) on money vs creativity and mapping pathways for young people. 09:40 – Matt Griffiths (CEO, Youth Music) on meeting young people where they're at. 14:00 – Sister Bliss (Faithless) on giving every young person the opportunity to create.  17:50 - Dan Tsu (Lyrix Organix) on creating spaces for young people 23:50 – Sister Bliss (Faithless) on what we can do next 28:50 – What comes next? A grassroots funding crisis, and what music fans can do to help. 30:50 – JayaHadADream on Youth Music's impact on her life and career. 32:20 – Resources, Rescue the Roots, and Youth Music’s call to action. Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe: Sign up to the Drowned in Sound newsletter for weekly insights on music, culture, and resistance. Links & Resources: DiS Podcast: Matt Griffiths in conversation with Sean Adams Youth Music Official Website Youth Music’s Rescue the Roots Campaign Youth Music’s Industry Connect Programme Lyrix Organix Official Website JayaHadADream Official Website Cover photo by Jack Oliver.

In this episode of the Drowned in Sound podcast, Sean Adams and Emma Wilkes are joined by Sophie K and Yasmin from the podcast, ’On Wednesdays We Wear Black’. Together they unpack what accountability really looks like inside the music industry - and why it’s still lagging decades behind. From the Marilyn Manson, Chris Brown and Brand New controversies to the long-standing normalisation of abuse in classic rock (as laid bare in The Guardian’s review of Look Away), the group explores how power, money, and silence continue to shape who gets forgiven…and who doesn’t. Chapters: 00:00 – Introduction 03:10 – The State of Rock: Power, Money, and Silence 08:45 – Cancel Culture vs Accountability 13:00 – When Does “Sorry” Stop Counting? 18:25 – Justice Without a System 23:40 – The Media’s Role in Reckoning 30:10 – What the Look Away Documentary Reveals 37:20 – Generational Shifts and Moral Gray Areas 45:00 – Lazy Activism and Online Moralism 52:15 – Festivals, Representation, and Tokenism 58:00 – Closing Thoughts: Can the Industry Evolve? Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe: Sign up to the Drowned in Sound newsletter for weekly insights on music, culture, and resistance. Further Reading, Links & Mentions: On Wednesdays We Wear Black Podcast Look Away -  horrifying stories of abuse at the hands of male rock stars (The Guardian) Bodies: Life and Death in Music — Ian Winwood The Persuaders - Anand Giridharadas

In part two of our Drowned in Sound podcast series on the Spotify exodus, Sean Adams sits down with Alexa Speed (founder of Cut Off The Spigot), and artist Kadhja Bonet alongside returning guest Laura Burhenn (The Mynabirds) to unpack the growing backlash against Spotify and other streaming giants. From Spotify’s billion-dollar AI investments and Daniel Ek’s controversial war drone ventures to the ethics of billionaire ownership and music’s place in post-capitalist culture, Sean and this week’s guests dive into the details and ask what happens when artists say enough is enough. We hear why Kadhja pulled her music from Spotify, how Alexa interrogates corporate influence behind streaming platforms, and what the alternatives are (including Bandcamp, Qobuz and more). We also imagine a future where creativity and community outweigh convenience, and where art is valued for its inherent social good, not algorithmic profitability. Far-fetched? Let’s find out. Chapters: 00:00 – Introduction: The Spotify Exodus 03:15 – Why Artists Are Leaving Streaming Platforms 08:45 – Daniel Ek’s Investments in AI and Defence Tech 13:20 – The Ethics of Streaming: Profit vs Planet 18:05 – Billionaires, Protest, and Power 22:40 – Kadhja Bonet: Why I Pulled My Music from Spotify 27:55 – Laura Burhenn on Journalism, Accountability & Platforms 34:10 – Alternatives: Bandcamp, Qobuz, and Ethical Listening 40:00 – The Role of Joy and Dance in Resistance 46:45 – Building a Post-Capitalist Music Culture 52:30 – What Comes After Spotify? 57:00 – Closing Reflections & Future Visions Try Qobuz (Ethical Streaming Alternative): Artists get paid 10x more than Spotify. Human-curated playlists. High-quality audio. Start your free trial via DiS (supporting independent music journalism). Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe: Sign up to the Drowned in Sound newsletter for weekly insights on music, culture, and resistance. Links & Mentions Cut Off The Spigot Kadhja Bonet on Bandcamp Kadhja Bonet on Instagram The Mynabirds Laura Burhenn on Instagram Flashes (Bluesky app) Ghost: The Social Web The Verge on Ghost 6 and the Social Web

DiS founder Sean Adams sits down with DiS’s newest staff writer, Emma Wilkes, to mark 25 years of Drowned in Sound and what the future holds for the website, newsletter, and podcast.  They reflect on Emma’s recent interview with Jeremy Corbyn as he champions grassroots venues, and turn the tables by asking each other questions usually reserved for podcast guests. Sean finally reveals how he would spend the $450m Spotify gave Joe Rogan, as this conversation explores the intersection of music, politics, journalism, and the survival of independent culture. Sean and Emma discuss how music can be a gateway into politics (and vice versa), the pressures facing artists, publicists, and journalists in today’s music industry, and what a fairer ecosystem could look like. They also imagine music’s future in 2050 - the hopes, fears, and possibilities of where culture might go next. Chapters: 00:00 – Introducing Emma Wilkes & 25 years of DiS 02:00 – Jeremy Corbyn, grassroots venues & music for the many 07:00 – Why music and politics can’t be separated 14:00 – Music as a gateway into politics 15:00 – Ticketmaster, Live Nation & the fight for fairness 18:00 – What is journalism today? 24:00 – Asking questions, telling stories & accountability in music journalism 29:00 – $450m for Joe Rogan: how should money flow into culture? 33:00 – Building connections between artists and audiences 37:00 – Music media as infrastructure 39:00 – Supporting mental health and addiction in the music industry 45:00 – Stress behind the scenes: labels, PRs & campaign work 46:00 – The albums we love and buried treasures 48:00 – Music in 2050: hopes, fears & future sounds 57:00 – What’s next for DiS at 25 Continue the Conversation: Head to the Drowned in Sound community to chat about the topics in this episode. Subscribe: Sign up to the Drowned in Sound newsletter for weekly insights on music, culture, and resistance. Links: Drowned in Sound Newsletter Emma Wilkes on interviewing Jeremy Corbyn (DiS) Music Venue Trust – safeguarding grassroots venues Music Minds Matter – mental health support for musicians

In music, abuse, harassment and discrimination is normalised whilst accountability and justice is rare, so how can change finally happen? Sign up at http://drownedinsound.org for more on this topic and our weekly newsletter. In this episode of the Drowned in Sound podcast: For the past eight years, journalist and photographer Eliza Hatch has been documenting everyday harassment through her platform Cheer Up Luv. Following her recent Glamour investigation into misogyny in music, which has reached over a million people, DiS founder Sean Adams sat down to talk about the reactions to the stat that more than half of women in the industry have faced discrimination. From government failures to arena tours by artists like Chris Brown and Marilyn Manson, this is a wide ranging conversation about the challenges and the solutions. We also hear how artists like Lambrini Girls and Nova Twins reacted to hearing that over 50% of women in music have faced discrimination. And we talk about the role men can play in smashing the patriarchy, the rise of the far right, and what a safer, more equal music industry could look like by 2050. Chapters: 00:00 – Misogyny and music: the scale of the problem10:30 – Everyday discrimination that builds hostile spaces 20:00 – When the government rejects reform: stalled progress and NDAs 24:00 – The role of media, libel laws, and silence in enabling abuse 26:00 – Chris Brown, Marilyn Manson, and the “separating art from artist” debate 33:00 – Why accountability is so rare in the music industry 42:00 – Smashing the patriarchy is good for men, too 52:00 – The far right, feminism, and why musicians need to speak out 57:00 – What the industry could and should look like in 2050 Continue the Conversation: Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your thoughts or experiences Subscribe to the DiS newsletter for weekly insights on music, culture, and resistance Links: Cheer Up Luv on Instagram Sign up to the Cheer Up Luv Newsletter Eliza Hatch’s piece for Glamour We Are Music - resources for musicians facing harassment On Wednesdays We Wear Black - Podcast documenting Marilyn Manson’s crimes

What creates a national sound? How does Scotland run through the veins of a band like Idlewild, despite their American influences? Roddy Woomble and Rod Jones from Scottish indie stalwarts Idlewild join us to explore their new self-titled album and dig into the complexities of musical identity. Beginning in Scotland's tight-knit music community, then feeling like outsiders in London, the band reveal how geography and culture have shaped their sound and music over three decades. Chapters: 03:00 – Exchange of Ideas: What music as conversation means beyond technical ability 06:00 – Literary Influences: Books, writers, and the Patti Smith revelation 09:00 – Sonic Youth Revolution: How Daydream Nation changed everything about playing guitar 13:00 – Scottish Identity: Self-deprecating culture and the outsider mentality 20:00 – Not Fitting Scenes: Missing Britpop and feeling closer to American bands 26:00 – Community Culture: Regional success and Scottish musical support networks 29:00 – Working with Producers: People skills and studio education 36:00 – New Album Production: Rod as producer capturing "melodic chaos" 40:00 – Visual Identity: Photography, album art, and the 28-year bookend 43:00 – Six Year Gap: COVID, solo projects, and finding renewed energy 47:00 – Rock's Resilience: Why rock refuses to die… Continue the Conversation: Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your thoughts on regional music scenes Share your own experiences of musical identity and belonging Subscribe to DiS newsletter for weekly insights on music and culture Links: Idlewild Official Website New Album: Idlewild (Official Store) Tour Dates

Have music artists finally had enough of the multi-billion dollar streaming platform? Laura Burhenn makes music as The Mynabirds and has played in the Postal Service's live band. When she learned Spotify CEO Daniel Ek invested $700 million in military AI startup Helsing, she pulled her music and uploaded a protest monologue. Her "Disarm Spotify" TikTok videos sparked millions of views and a wave of artist departures followed. Recent acts that have taken their music down include King Gizzard & The Lizard Wizard and Godspeed You! Black Emperor. In this episode, we're not just talking about streaming rates but getting into the wider systemic issues with music being turned into bombs. Featured voices from the movement:Novo • Violetta Zironi • Naley By Nature • Dan Mangan Chapters: 00:00 – Musicians boycotting Spotify: the fury and the interconnected issues04:00 – When music money becomes military funding: the Daniel Ek investment09:00 – AI drones and the dystopian timeline we're already living13:00 – The snowball effect: how individual protest becomes movement18:00 – Platform alternatives: Qobuz, ethics, and where artists go next23:00 – Releasing protest music on the platform you're protesting27:00 – Artists participating in their own devaluation: the bigger picture35:00 – From DC punk to Palestine solidarity: political music evolution40:00 – Why outspoken artists stay silent about their own platforms Continue the Conversation: Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your platform organising experiences Join the discussion about collective action in the creator economy Subscribe to DiS newsletter for weekly insights on music and resistance Try Qobuz (Ethical Streaming Alternative):Artists get paid 10x more than Spotify. Human-curated playlists. High-quality audio. Start your free trial via DiS (supporting independent music journalism). Links: Laura Burhenn on Instagram The Mynabirds on Bandcamp Laura's piece for Drowned in Sound

How do artists decide what to say when everything from grassroots music to the climate is in crisis? Backstage at Reading Festival, Drowned in Sound’s Sean Adams and Emma Wilkes sat down with Rou Reynolds, the frontman of Enter Shikari, one of the UK's most politically engaged bands. We discuss a range of topics including the St Albans music scene and how they pioneered the grassroots music venue levy - adding £1 to arena tickets to support small venues. With 20 years of activism and seven albums under the band’s belt, Rou’s learned that having a platform means constantly choosing which crisis at a time or polycrisis deserves the spotlight. And we chat a lot about the interconnected issues and the need for system change. Chapters: 03:00 – How the £1 venue levy actually works in practice05:00 – Why supporting grassroots is community organizing, not charity07:00 – How St Albans scene prepared Enter Shikari for mainstream success09:00 – The neoliberal isolation crisis and music's role as antidote11:00 – Connecting Gaza, climate crisis, and music industry exploitation12:30 – Climate speech: "430 parts per million" and the season finale16:00 – The impossible choice: which crisis gets the platform tonight?22:00 – Reading Festival Gaza speech: "This is not a tragedy, it's a war crime" "To be silent in times of atrocity is to assist in maintaining that atrocity" Continue the Conversation: Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your platform responsibility experiences Join the discussion about choosing battles in poly-crisis times Subscribe to DiS newsletter for weekly insights on building alternatives Links: Enter Shikari Official Music Venue Trust Rou chats from COP in Glasgow on the Sounds Like A Plan podcast  

Is rage the soundtrack of summer 2025? Can joy exist alongside political solidarity when climate change turns fields into dust clouds? Are main stages becoming platforms for resistance? And how do grassroots venues create the community foundations that allow festivals like Reading to exist at all? This DiSpatch captures Reading Festival 2025 as both a celebration and political flashpoint - a weekend where Chappell Roan's euphoric main stage triumph coexisted with Palestine solidarity, climate crisis manifestations, and urgent conversations about the grassroots music ecosystem that supports it all. Sean Adams and Emma Wilkes navigate backstage conversations revealing how artists choose which urgent topics to address when "there's a lot of things happening in the world." From Enter Shikari's pioneering grassroots levy work to Cliffords’ Cork scene community building, the episode maps how small venues create the collaborative culture that eventually reaches festival main stages. These conversations connect individual artist journeys to systemic challenges: venue closures, climate impacts, and the intersection of music with broader political movements. Chapters: 00:00 – Introduction: Festivals as cultural battlegrounds in climate crisis era05:00 – Chappell Roan: Joy as political resistance on main stage08:00 – Cliffords on optimism as radical act and Cork scene collaboration11:00 – Sofia Isella: From classical training to festival mud, building versatile artistry16:00 – Rage as summer's soundtrack: Artist perspectives on political expression22:00 – Enter Shikari: Choosing urgent topics and grassroots levy pioneer work28:00 – Grassroots venues: Community infrastructure beyond music35:00 – Climate crisis reaches UK festivals: Dust storms and venue sustainability43:00 – Political solidarity: Palestine flags and artist platform responsibility47:00 – Reading 2025: Cultural battleground assessment Featured Links: DrownedInSound YouTube Channel - Full artist interviews from Reading Festival DiS Instagram - Behind-the-scenes festival content and artist clips Grassroots Music Venue Crisis - Learn about the £1 levy supporting venues Muse at Reading Festival 1999 - A history of Muse performances at Reading Festival DiS Bookshop - Supporting independent bookstores and music writing Artists Featured: Chappell Roan, Cliffords, Sofia Isella, Enter Shikari, Heartworms, The Linda Lindas, Mannequin P*ssy, Amyl and the Sniffers, Lambrini Girls, and more About DiSpatch: DiSpatch episodes capture music events as cultural moments that reveal broader political and environmental currents. These aren't traditional festival reviews - they're explorations of how live music spaces become essential infrastructure for community building, political discourse, and cultural resistance in the climate crisis era. Continue the Conversation: Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your thoughts on festivals as political spaces Join the discussion in our community forum about venue sustainability Subscribe to DiS newsletter for climate crisis generation journalism 

Cherie Hu is an oracle of music technology and she can forsee where music is headed.

Nirvana, TikTok, analogue aesthetics, and virality don’t usually go together. Meet the creator who is bucking all the trends.

Music discovery, algorithms, and the craft of music journalism: DiS meets Ilana Kaplan who has covered the early careers of now megastars like Billie EIlish and Halsey.

Q&A special: DiS founder Sean Adams explores the uncomfortable truths about streaming economics and social media burnout

One for music producers and DIY business starters. Sean talks with Isobel Anderson, one of music tech’s most important feminist voices.

<p>While most music industry coverage focuses on (poly)crisis and collapse, Mary Spender argues we&#39;re living through the greatest era for independent artists in history.</p><p>But, but but... what about streaming economics, venue closures, and platform dependence? Don&#39;t worry, we get into it.</p><p>With over 100 million YouTube views, 34,000 newsletter subscribers, and significant album sales achieved before releasing a single track to streaming, Mary demonstrates there are viable alternatives to industry doom-spiralling. </p><p>In this conversation, she reveals her strategies for converting YouTube viewers into album buyers, why artists need to think like entrepreneurs, and what she&#39;d build with Spotify&#39;s $400 million Joe Rogan budget.</p><p>Sean also asks her about her recent video about why artists should embrace YouTube. Speaking of which, you will be able to see clips from this interview over on Drowned in Sound&#39;s YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@DrownedinSound" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">youtube.com/@DrownedinSound</a> </p><p><br></p><p><strong>Timestamps</strong></p><p>00:00 Sean&#39;s Intro</p><p>03:21 What will music be like in 2050?</p><p>06:25 Why artists should think like entrepreneurs</p><p>12:45 What does the future hold for independent artists?</p><p>16:56 The 1000 true fan theory</p><p>18:51 Should YouTube be the #1 platform for musicians?</p><p>24:36 Researching with an open mind. A rare skillset?</p><p>29:45 How to convert an audience from YouTube</p><p>34:17 What can the UK government do for music?</p><p>36:35 How would Mary spend the $400 million Spotify paid Joe Rogan?</p><p>38:39 Is long-form content on the return?</p><p>43:29 Sean&#39;s Outro</p><p><br></p><p><strong>Quotable Moments</strong><br><em>&quot;Technically it&#39;s never been a better time to be a musician than today, even though everyone likes to talk about the heyday. But that was for a very lucky few.&quot;</em> <br><em>&quot;If you don&#39;t have the grassroots, you don&#39;t have the artists in Wembley Stadium. Like you don&#39;t have that trajectory.&quot;</em> <br></p><p><strong>Continue the Conversation</strong>📧 Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your questions for future episodes🌐 Join the <a href="https://community.drownedinsound.org" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">Drowned in Sound Community</a>📰 Subscribe to the <a href="https://drownedinsound.org" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">Drowned in Sound newsletter</a></p><p><strong>Guest Links</strong><br><a href="https://youtube.com/maryspender" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">Mary Spender&#39;s YouTube Channel</a><br><a href="https://maryspender.com" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">Mary&#39;s website and newsletter</a><br><a href="https://nebula.tv/maryspender" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">The Dire Straits Documentary on Nebula</a></p><p><strong>Referenced in Episode</strong><br><a href="https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/" target="_blank" rel="ugc noopener noreferrer">Kevin Kelly&#39;s &quot;1000 True Fans&quot; essay</a><br></p><p><strong>About the Host:

<p>What does it feel like to attend Glastonbury for the first time?</p><p>Music journalist <a href="https://www.emmabwilkes.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferer">Emma Wilkes</a> brings us along for her debut pilgrimage to the UK&#39;s landmark musical gathering. She spins us a sonic diary with interviews from Terminal 1 and Laima Layton, along with reactions to some of the politically charged moments of the festival (shouts to Amyl and the Sniffers). </p><p>Along the way, there are vox pops with strangers, overlooked corners, and moments that slipped under the mainstream radar…</p><p>00:00 Introduction</p><p>01:51 Pre-festival preparation with Emma Wilkes</p><p>03:26 Attendees&#39; expectations of Glastonbury 2025</p><p>04:22 First impressions and Thursday observations</p><p>06:19 Terminal 1 and an interview with Laima Layton</p><p>18:32 The sounds of Worthy Farm</p><p>19:12 How does the real-life festival compare to the coverage seen previously?</p><p>21:45 The political moments of Glastonbury 2025</p><p>30:42 The journey home, the Tuesday after, and a summary from a slightly raspy Emma</p><p>34:11 Expectations vs. reality with the people of the festival</p><p><strong>Mentioned in the episode:</strong></p><p><a href="https://www.laimaleyton.com/music"><u>Laima Layton</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.inplaceofwar.net/"><u>In Place Of War</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.inplaceofwar.net/grrrl"><u>GRRRL</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.glastonburyfestivals.co.uk/areas/terminal-1/"><u>Terminal 1</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.amylandthesniffers.com/"><u>Amyl and the Sniffers</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.jadeofficial.com/"><u>JADE</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.seunkutimusic.com/"><u>Seun Kuti</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.marujaofficial.co.uk/"><u>Maruja</u></a></p><p><a href="https://www.lambrinigirlsband.co.uk/"><u>Lambrini Girls</u></a></p><ul><li><strong>Join the conversation: </strong><a href="https://community.drownedinsound.com/"><strong>Drowned in Sound Community</strong></a></li><li><strong>Email: </strong><a href="mailto:Sean@drownedinsound.org"><strong>sean@drownedinsound.org</strong></a></li><li><strong>Stay updated:</strong> <a href="https://www.drownedinsound.org/"><strong>Subscribe to DiS newsletter</strong></a><br></li></ul>

<p>How do you build genuine community when algorithms reward viral moments over real connection? What if sustainable music careers start with just five super fans rather than chasing millions of followers?</p><p>Drowned in Sound founder &amp; artist manager Sean Adams speaks with Nikki Camilleri - music strategist, Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, and founder of mana - about the ground-level realities of building a music career in 2025. </p><p>From growing up in Malta and navigating geographic disadvantage to working with breakthrough artists like Cat Burns, Nikki breaks down what actually works in today&#39;s oversaturated landscape.</p><p>This conversation digs deep into authentic community-building versus audience accumulation, the &quot;five super fans&quot; principle that challenges conventional wisdom, and why most artist advice around social media is fundamentally broken. </p><p>Plus: Nikki&#39;s vision for fixing music industry infrastructure by 2050, including transparency tools and direct fan connection platforms that don&#39;t rely on algorithmic gatekeepers.</p><p><strong>&quot;You need five super fans to start getting going - that&#39;s equal to about 250 passive fans. When you start looking at it that way, it doesn&#39;t seem as daunting.&quot;</strong></p><p><em>— Nikki Camilleri on why quality beats quantity in fan building</em></p><p><strong>Episode Timestamps:</strong></p><ul><li>00:00 Introduction: Music Reality Check for 2025</li><li>02:03 Envisioning Music in 2050: Transparency and Infrastructure</li><li>04:34 The Malta Factor: Geographic Disadvantage in Digital Times</li><li>08:26 The Resilience Crisis: From &quot;Ready to Fight&quot; to Viral Expectations</li><li>16:28 Five Super Fans vs Viral Algorithms: Quality Over Quantity</li><li>20:14 Real Community vs Audience: Building Genuine Connection</li><li>32:15 Artist Purpose and Identity: The &quot;Horror Electronica&quot; Story</li><li>39:21 Fixing the Industry: Where Would You Spend Spotify&#39;s Money?</li><li>44:48 Key Takeaways: What Actually Works</li></ul><p><br></p><p><strong>Mentioned in the episode:</strong></p><p><a href="https://www.nikkicamilleri.com/">Nikki Camilleri</a></p><p><a href="https://hq.rostr.cc/">ROSTR</a></p><p><a href="https://www.thersa.org/">Royal Society of Arts</a></p><p><a href="http://volt.fm">Volt.fm</a></p><p><a href="https://www.katforillinois.com/">Kat Abu</a></p><p><a href="https://theanchoress.co.uk/">The Anchoress</a></p><p><a href="https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferer">Kevin Kelly on 1000 True Fans</a></p><p>Join the conversation: <a href="https://community.drownedinsound.com/">Drowned in Sound Community</a></p><p>Email<strong> </strong><a href="mailto:podcasts@drownedinsound.org" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferer"><strong>podcasts@drownedinsound.org</strong></a><strong> </strong></p><p><br></p><p><a href="https://www.drownedinsound.org/"><strong>Subscribe to DiS newsletter</strong></a></p><p><br></p>