We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions? In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder.  They discuss Marc's journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/  To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk  For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI  For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Each time someone wants to become a British Citizen, they have to pass the ‘Life In The UK’ Test. The aspiring Britisher (such as Jason) might hope that this test would be comprised of a series of questions that would highlight Britain’s role as a global orderer, help prospective citizens understand the intricacies of British queuing culture and provide insights into how to pay council tax, or get on the ballot for Wimbledon tickets… but in reality: the test is about as Disorderly as the world is currently. In this episode, Jane and Jason discuss the intricacies and absurdities of Jason’s experience taking the Life in the UK test. Jason quizzes Jane on what he was made to learn about the supposed essentials of British life, with questions such as: what is a Welsh cake made from? Who won against the Vikings? And ‘what many of crosses compose the Union Flag? [sic]’  And on a serious note, they discuss the very special intellectual contribution of Scots to global civilization and –as they Order the Disorder – they talk about whether Britain can be a convening power – and a genuine Mega Orderer in the mid 21st century world. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Recipe for Welsh cakes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/welsh_cakes_16706  Can YOU pass a UK citizenship test? Brits joke they 'better pack their bags' after struggling to answer the general knowledge questions:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-14849235/Can-YOU-pass-UK-citizenship-test-Brits-joke-better-pack-bags-struggling-answer-general-knowledge-questions.html  More than half of the population are unable to pass the UK citizenship test - but how well would YOU do?  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13584185/more-than-half-of-the-population-are-unable-to-pass-the-uk-citizenship-test-but-how-well-would-you-do.html  Wha’s like us? Damn few’ and they’re A’ deid: https://www.robbiemactours.co.uk/whas-like-us-damn-few-and-theyre-a-deid/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The UN is demonstrably powerless in Gaza; unable to facilitate elections in Libya; and blocked by Russia from doing anything meaningful on major issues, like Ukraine, Climate Change, Tarriffs, or the Arctic. Is International Diplomacy Dead? Where is the UN in pushing back against Trump? Is there any way that countries can finally put their differences aside on major divisive issues -- like Ukraine and Gaza -- but work together on other more unifying ones – like kleptocracy and climate change – and finally Order the Disorder? To find out, Jason is joined by Stephanie Williams – Former top United Nations mediator and a senior American diplomat. Stephanie served as the Special Adviser to the Secretary General on Libya, as well as acting UN SRSG/Special Envoy to Libya. She is the author of an excellent and highly detailed new book on international diplomacy, ‘Libya Since Qaddafi: Chaos and the Search for Peace’. As with Jason’s own book, Stephanie’s is with Hurst/OUP, by far the best publishers of cutting edge books on Libya.  The duo delve into the effectiveness of the UN and the international community in addressing global conflicts, particularly focusing on Libya. Plus they tackle: the complexities of state building, the Disordering influence of Russia on the operations of the UN, the impact of US foreign policy on Libya, and why incoherence and coordination complexities within the West makes it nearly impossible to do diplomacy anymore. And as they Order the Disorder, Jason and Stephanie propose genuine things Steve Witkoff and others can do to formulate a more unified approach to major issues of the day. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Stephanie Williams’ book, Libya Since Qaddafi: Chaos and the Search for Peace - https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/libya-since-qaddafi/  Get Jason’s book Libya and the Global Enduring Disorder - https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/libya-and-the-global-enduring-disorder/  Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc   Listen back to Ep4. Who is leading the disorder? https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9ebdc18174d18cb019d148053a98e287  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In his roll as UK Foreign Secretary, David Lammy has often talked of his concept of progressive realism, but what does that mean? And how has that impacted British foreign policy over the past 12 months? In this episode of Disorder, Alex Hall Hall and Arthur Snell delve into the complexities of British diplomacy over the past year – offering a grade point for each area of British foreign policy. They assess the UK's relationships with the US and EU, the implications of NATO and defense strategies, their dealings with Ukraine amidst the ongoing conflict with Russia and the government's response to the humanitarian crisis in the Middle East.  To close – and Order the Disorder – the pair express the need for a clearer vision in foreign policy, greater engagement with the Global South, and a clearer moral backbone from Starmer and co. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Read ‘Keir Starmer Has Missed His Chance to Make a Bold Break With the Past on Foreign Policy’ by Alex Hall Hall: https://bylinetimes.com/2025/06/27/labour-foreign-policy-report-card/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Alex’s final episode as an official cohost, she and Jason reflect on just how disordered the world has become since the pod started in 2023. They lament the loss of sane American global leadership during that time, the challenges faced by centrist politicians, and unpack the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. They express the need for moral courage and moral clarity in politics. As they Order the Disorder – they talk about the need to use your unique voice to shine a light on what can be done to make politics work better. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Watch Why the UK should mediate between Trump, Bibi, and the Ayatollahs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQb1oXFBh4 Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc Read about Georgia’s struggle for democracy and slide into authoritarianism and how it mirrors our own in the USA: https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/06/08/i-was-not-fierce-enough-georgian-activists-brutal-confession-as-democracy-collapses/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Alex’s penultimate episode as an official Disorder cohost, she and Jason discuss her decision to step back from co-hosting due to the overwhelming chaos in the world and the emotional toll it takes. Plus: they unpack the struggle to maintain empathy in a disordered world, the rising fear of deportation, cancellation, political violence, censorship, enemies lists, and their implications for democracy. And – as they Order the Disorder – they look at the importance of maintaining professional integrity, while dealing with emotional challenges. They also explore strategies for coping with the chaos of modern life. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Read about Georgia’s struggle for democracy and slide into authoritarianism and how it mirrors our own in the USA: https://euromaidanpress.com/2025/06/08/i-was-not-fierce-enough-georgian-activists-brutal-confession-as-democracy-collapses/ Watch Why Regime Change in Iran is Impossible - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlX5_mp1JWc Read ‘Donald Trump’s Los Angeles Military Deployment Is an Assault on American Democracy’ - https://bylinetimes.com/2025/06/10/donald-trump-los-angeles-military-deployment-assault-on-american-democracy/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Lenin apparently never said, ‘There Are Decades Where Nothing Happens and Weeks Where Decades Happen’. We are clearly living through the latter. Arthur and Jason attempt to untangle the latest: from the Iranian attack on the US airbase in Qatar to Trump’s declaration of forever peace to end what he is cleverly calling the 12 Day War. Arthur and Jason rally in violent unity for Mega Ordering -- whether you advocated for Obama’s ‘Iran Deal’ or supported Trump’s tearing it to shreds, whether you love Benjamin Netanyahu or think he is an evil genius, whether you supported Trump’s Beautiful Bunker Busting against Fordow or see it as an illegal and reckless gamble, all sane centrists must now advocate for Western unity in ending the wars in Gaza and Iran. The power balance of the Middle East has been fundamentally reconfigured. It is uniquely favourable for peace. As Arthur and Jason try to Order the Disorder, they discuss if the Europeans can help get us there and why Bibi appears hellbent on spoiling his own achievements. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Iran fires missiles at US base in Qatar, Trump calls for peace: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-weighs-retaliation-against-us-strikes-nuclear-sites-2025-06-23/ Watch How The Iran Israel War Could End - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fymBJbsBDfI  Arthur’s excellent substack Time to learn about Iran's separatist movements: https://substack.com/home/post/p-166505834    And our Substack, Were the Iranians forewarned? why are the markets so placid? What happens if Hormuz is closed? https://natoandtheged.substack.com/publish/posts/detail/166535764?referrer=%2Fpublish%2Fhome  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Trump promised to end the wars in Ukraine and Gaza, yet here we are – months later – and seemingly no real progress has been made towards peace in either regions. In the meantime, Trump and co were also seeking deals across the Middle East, including a new nuclear deal with Iran. How did that go? It ended in full scale War! Is the Art of the Deal dead? Is Trump a fool? Or is he more of a master negotiator than is immediately apparent? Did he actually manipulate the Iranians in a way that Biden never could have? To discuss this – and the intricate relationship between human psychology and the politics of negotiations – Jason was joined on June 10 by Ken Dekleva. A former senior US Dept of State physician-diplomat, CEO of Blackwood Advisory Solutions LLC, and Author of The Russian Diplomat’s Wife. Ken and Jason discuss the role of human psychology in Trump’s negotiations involving Ukraine, Russia, and Iran. Plus: they unpack the influence of Steve Witkoff within Trump’s inner circle, the complexities of negotiations in the Middle East – and whether Team Trump is likely to get any sort of deal with powers like Iran who wish to appear uncompromising. Listening to this discussion post Israeli Attack on Iran is actually super interesting as it shows the interplay btw negotiations and war in that region. And as they Order the Disorder, they touch on the future of U.S.-China relations in the context of AI and global power dynamics, and the need for a strategic approach to negotiations. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Ken’s Book, The Russian Diplomat’s Wife - https://www.thecipherbrief.com/book-review/i-spy-a-love-story Listen to our previous episode with Ken - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/94c9f3ec23902d3f606bffb43dc39928  Watch Does NATO Have A Future? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ouF6cVUJjY  Read profile of Steve Witkoff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/05/steve-witkoff-putin-russia-ukraine-diplomat/682805/  Read Arthur Snells Substack on the Ukraine drone attack - https://arthursnell.substack.com/p/operation-spiders-web-opening-pandoras?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=web  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Over the weekend, waves of missiles were launched back and forth by Iran and Israel – killing civilians, damaging oil refineries, and causing tremendous humanitarian disaster. Iran willy nilly lobbed bombs at population centres while the Israelis targeted key bits of infrastructure. In either case, the international community stood by – seemingly unable to stop the Disorder. So what can be done? In this episode, Jason Pack and Jane Kinninmont recap the weekend’s events – exploring what role the key international actors like, Trump, the G7, or India can play in providing an off ramp. Jane and Jason discuss the contradictions in Trump’s stance, the role of the G7 and India as potential mediators, and the risks associated with a full regime change in Iran. Plus: could Israel actually lose this war or its population tire of being confined to bomb shelters at night?  Then as they Order the Disorder, Jane and Jason provide their predictions on how it all might end. They disagree agreeably on whether Israel’s war aims of destroying the enrichment facility at Fardow now need to be achieved first or if it is possible to go back to the negotiating table directly. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Sohrab Ahmari - Iran’s Devastating Hubris - https://unherd.com/2025/06/irans-devastating-hubris/  Analysis for Ynet by Raz Zimmt who is one of Israel’s leading experts on Iran, at INSS - https://www.ynetnews.com/opinions-analysis/article/rj6csjsqeg  Richard Nephew: Can Israel Destroy Iran’s Nuclear Program? Foreign Affairs - https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/can-israel-destroy-iran-nuclear-program  An initiative by 21 Iranian and Israeli scholars, writers and artists calling for a ceasefire - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1DmH16adeqbmc3FO1596QVYf0PnVYfr_TDG2pc2njobk/edit  Israel-Iran War: 10 Dead, Around 200 Injured In Iranian Strikes - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKsJQW4uWxY  Will The U.S. Deal Iran its Final Blow - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000713035101 Explainer: what we know so far in the Israel-Iran conflict - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/16/israel-iran-conflict-what-we-know-so-far-explainer   Markets are shrugging off the Israel-Iran conflict. Some strategists warn of complacency - https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/16/markets-could-be-underpricing-risks-of-israel-iran-conflict.html  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Overnight, Israel attacked several of Iran’s nuclear sites and killed the Islamic Republic’s top military leaders, as well as assassinating the Supreme Leader’s key advisor on nuclear issues, Ali Shamkhani. This comes two days before the US and Iran were supposed to resume direct talks on finding a diplomatic agreement to curb Iran’s nuclear programme, which Shamkhani had publicly supported. Jane Kinninmont and Jason discuss why has war come now, in the middle of Trump and Witkoff’s diplomacy? Jason explains: it is likely because surprise and going on the offensive are more beneficial now than they have been in the last century. The duo break down the big picture implications of how the recent Ukrainian strikes on Russian nuclear planes and the ongoing Israeli strikes on Iran showcase how warfare has just rapidly changed from a period which favours static and prepared defense (the Cold War and Post-Cold War periods) to a period (The Enduring Disorder) in which warfare has changed to favours creative and imaginative offense. Our current military technology and intel (esp AI) will promote more instability and favour aggression over defense. Also the key thing to keep in mind is that the Israelis had prepared this attack for years and had actually delayed it and felt they needed to get it done before it was too late. Jason also predicts Iranians will have to asymmetrically retaliate... could be against US or Sunni Gulfi targets in the region (refineries/embassies) or Jewish/Israeli targets in Europe/the Globe. In short, we are entering a new phase of the Wars of Disorder. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: For the NYT’s coverage of kinetic developments and Overviews: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/06/12/world/israel-iran-us-nuclear  For an excellent audio overview of what sites were attacked and why now-- Emergency Episode: ISRAEL AT WAR WITH IRAN - With Ronen Bergman: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000712721731 This attack has been long prepared: CIA analyst who leaked Israeli military plans gets three years in prison - The Washington Post https://apple.news/ABFn0haZjROuV8HqU_Ezsug Why can’t we just have global order, and civility on the Tube: https://www.ft.com/content/cfb73bfe-fb42-4fd1-8b73-a125fd35e1a0?accessToken=zwAGN3LKTcoYkdPPtzv--0JP0dOLc6El_TXhoA.MEQCIG07rU5VCnoJ70yjPQ85Yr2K3YVq65g_R1jNE0NXa1dyAiBuosNEkyWwxJu499tazJwRojNLWZgq9iJmfvfLfBN5tQ&sharetype=gift&token=8dc84b36-5e95-4856-9c28-e6d884595132 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At different engagements throughout the month, NATO allies will meet in Brussels and the Hague to discuss Ukraine and defense spending – with Trump’s team putting pressure on the Europeans to up their spending to 5% of GDP. But with the Americans wavering on the alliance as a whole, and these unrealistic spending targets: Can NATO survive? To find out, Arthur Snell speaks with Sten Rynning, professor and director of the Danish Institute for Advanced Study, University of Southern Denmark, and author of ‘NATO: From Cold War to Ukraine, a History of the World’s Most Powerful Alliance’.  The duo discuss the origins and evolution of NATO, the significance of Article 5, NATO’s complex relationship with France, and the challenges faced during the Afghanistan mission. Plus: the contentious issue of NATO's eastward expansion in the wake of the fall of the Soviet Union, and the Alliance's role in maintaining Order in the Post-War era. And as they conclude the discussion, they explore the future of European security architecture, the importance of America's role in NATO, and – to Order the Disorder – the need for a cohesive European defense strategy. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Get Sten Rynning’s book, NATO: From Cold War to Ukraine, a History of the World’s Most Powerful Alliance - https://www.londonreviewbookshop.co.uk/stock/nato-from-cold-war-to-ukraine-a-history-of-the-world-s-most-powerful-alliance-sten-rynning  Watch The Paradox of the Anti-Semitic Boulder attack - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7zAO_5CtfE  Listen to Arthur’s Behind The Lines Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/behind-the-lines-with-arthur-snell/id1704344656  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From Gaddafi’s Green Book, to Mao’s Little Red Book, to Hitler’s Mein Kampf, ideological autocrats have frequently spelled out in plain sight their perverse world views and long-term plans to confront their adversaries and upend global order. Rather than engaging in deep study of the thoughts of Qadhafi, Saddam, the Ayatollahs, or Mao, our leaders have traditionally not taken the statements of our ideological adversaries seriously enough. From Obama, to Biden, and even Trump – leaders in the West have long misunderstood what drives Putin’s Russia. They have wondered about Putin’s hidden agendas and secret plans, rather than reading his published ones. Putin essentially told us he was going to invade Ukraine in his writings and statements. How is it then, that major leaders throughout the West could be caught off-guard and surprised when he did? There is actually a manifesto of the Russian deep state’s ideology – a collection of books called Project Russia. And yet almost no one has heard of it and it is not yet translated into English. It might be the clearest indicator of Putin’s ultimate goals. To find out more, Jason is joined by Dave Troy, an investigative journalist covering the intersection of technology and democracy. He is currently the publisher and editor of America 2.0, a news site focused on the future of democracy. Dave also hosts the podcast Dave Troy Presents. Jason and David discuss the continuity of Russian intelligence networks from the Soviet era to the present and the incompatibility of oligarchs and democracy. Plus: they unpack 'Project Russia'-- an ideological framework that outlines strategies for undermining Western democracy, the concept of Russian Cosmism, how these ideas intersect with Silicon Valley futurism, and are shaping the West in unexpected ways. Finally, as they Order the Disorder, David suggests a new coalition of democracies united behind promoting Order and confronting the Deliberate Disorders. Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Show Notes Links: Watch Does Germany need to embrace Nationalism? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIwVwI7mP5E Watch Will German defence spending make Trump happy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVwZsukFK9g Basic stuff on Project Russia and its origins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Institute_for_Strategic_Studies Visit America 2 News - https://america2.news David’s Writing in the Washington Spectator https://washingtonspectator.org/category/wide-angle/ David Troy’s Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dave-troy-presents/id1610914569 Clarence Streit - Union Now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Now https://dn790008.ca.archive.org/0/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.262135/2015.262135.Union-Now.pdf Marlene Laruelle - Russian Nationalism: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/oa-mono/10.4324/9780429426773/russian-nationalism-marlene-laruelle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

With Friedrich Merz officially at the helm, Germany is entering a new era. But with the AfD breathing down his neck – the country is actually more internally Disordered than outsiders may realise. We ask: could the answer be a new – inclusive – brand of nationalism?To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Will Wilkes: Bloomberg News correspondent in Germany and co-author of ‘Broken Republik: The Inside Story of Germany's Descent into Crisis’. The pair discuss the current state of Germany, discussing how Germany's historical context – not just WWII but also the impact of the financial crisis and the refugee influx – has shaped its present situation. Plus: Germany's role in European security and the challenges posed by the rise of the far-right party, AFD.And as Jane and Will Order the Disorder – they discuss how to create a cohesive German national identity – could it be fostering unity by creating new community celebrations? Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow  Check out our recent YouTube ‘The DC Jewish Museum shooting: The Disorderly illogic of it’ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BaWtQ5bH-Q&t=2s  Show Notes Links: Broken Republik (English edition): https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/broken-republik-9781526679161/  Totally Kaputt (German edition): https://www.piper.de/buecher/totally-kaputt-isbn-978-3-492-07328-8  Friedrich Merz is no unifier – he may deepen Germany’s divides (The Guardian): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/05/germany-unifier-chancellor-divide-friedrich-merz  Germany’s identity crisis is 80 years in the making (Bloomberg):  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-10/germany-s-political-center-challenged-by-afd-russia-china-and-trump?sref=ttOZ5TVM Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Disorder is a show where we look for historical parallels to better understand our current age of Global Enduring Disorder… It is also a show where once and a while we stumble across novel and yet explanatory parallels like the idea that the problems of Weimar Germany have gone global and sometimes we even get to interview world famous scholars who have come up with these novel parallels and have brilliantly extracted useful kernels about the interconnectivity of different crises, especially as pertains to institutional weakness, deliberate disorderers, and the rise of populist would-be strong men. Today, Jason Pack is joined by Robert Kaplan: a New York Times bestselling author whose famous books Balkan Ghosts, the Coming Anarchy, the Arabists, and The Revenge of Geography have been extremely influential in developing the concept of the Enduring Disorder. As part of our partnership with the New Books Network, we discuss his latest book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis. Robert and Jason discuss the rise of populism, the impact of globalization, and the decline of institutions and leadership. Plus: the significance of constitutional monarchy and the current decline of the major global powers. And as they Order the Disorder – they look at how the failure of the neo-populists will hopefully lead to more trust in experts, and how the Weimar republic can teach us lessons. Quote of the episode ‘The more abject the disorder, often the more extreme the tyranny to follow, and that brings us to Weimar’s last chapter’ Producer: George McDonagh Disorder is also now part of the Evergreen Network! For more visit https://evergreenpodcasts.com/disorder Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links: For more on the New Books Network visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder  For more on Robert visit https://robertdkaplan.com/  Get Robert’s book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis https://www.amazon.com/Waste-Land-World-Permanent-Crisis-ebook/dp/B0D2W1B519/  Listen to Ep3. The Rise of the Neo-Populists https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/0c55bf63f1175d94d6a508eb72e8a84f  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

To best Order the Disorder, we love hosting live shows with our partners at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) and showcasing the great range of talent that they have on staff. Jane and Jason were joined for a live recording on May 14 by TOM KEATINGE, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRE FOR FINANCE AND SECURITY AT RUSI. The trio started off tackling Sanctions: the role and use of Western Sanctions before Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022; how the use of sanctions has changed since Russia’s full-scale invasion, particularly on this side of the Atlantic; what does this mean for the rest of the world; and how this expansive use of sanctions is reordering global finance.  And then moved on to the question of Markets…. and how they hold governments to account. Jason genuinely believes that the markets may be our last hope to save American democracy and that they can do what the supreme court and congress are supposed to do but cannot.  Finally, we couldn’t discuss finance and security without mentioning the Donald’s favourite word in the English language that word that he seems not to realize comes directly from Arabic, *Tariffs*.  We tried to unpack what really are tarriffs; how we know they didn’t work with Smoot Hawley; what does Donald Trump think tarriffs are. The main take away of the discussion overall was: The failure of economic tools of coercion such as sanctions and tariffs to achieve their stated aims and the power of 'markets' to reassert order.  It was a well attended live show with over 75 guests in RUSI’s beautiful library… pls come join us for the next one in the Autumn. And more importantly right now! Pls pls join our paid for substack to hear all the beautiful listener questions! Producer: George McDonagh Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work and to listen to the listener questions which are cut from this free episode - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links:  We are trying to grow our YouTube channel. Pls check out this rather racy video and subscribe to the channel, Is Gary Lineker an Anti-Semite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdi4vVGyCkM  Relevant RUSI sanctions work can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/projects/sanctions-and-illicit-finance-monitoring-and-analysis-network-sifmanet  A recent article challenging the Russia maritime sanctions status quo can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/tapped-out-it-time-revisit-oil-sanctions-russia  A recent article arguing for action on the Russian central bank assets can be found here: https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-central-bank-assets-ukraine/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

FIRSTLY, PLS COME TO OUR LIVE SHOW. NOW OPEN TO ALL DISORDER LISTENERS Wednesday MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. You can sign up here: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html  NOW TO THIS EPISODE: In Trump’s first 100 days he has disordered almost everything: from freedom of speech on campus to global trade to affairs of war and peace. And yet, despite his threats to abandon Ukraine, and actual denials of provision of certain forms of intelligence and anti-aircraft equipment, the frontlines have largely held. In fact, it now appears that Trump lacks the ability to force Ukraine to make concessions that it doesn’t want to make, namely over Crimea. So, is there more Order and hope to be found in Ukraine than is immediately apparent? To find out, Jason Pack is joined by Mark McNamee. Mark moved to Kyiv in October 2023 in order to start the Ukraine Business News (UBN) Network, with the mission to aid foreign investors in navigating the business environment of Ukraine and drive Ukraine’s economic recovery and reconstruction. He is also host of the podcast "History in the Making: The War in Ukraine”. Mark and Jason discuss: the current state of the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War, with a particular focus on the resilience of Ukraine's economy, its innovative use of drone technology and how Ukraine could become a global leader in defense technology going forward.  Plus: the implications of the U.S.-Ukraine minerals deal as truly game changing, the role of Europe in supporting Ukraine, and whether Ukraine's potential EU membership can offset lack of potential for it to become a NATO member. And as they look to Order the Disorder, Mark proposes the creation of a European Defense Tech Fund to support Ukraine's recovery and defense capabilities. Producer: George McDonagh Executive Producer: Neil Fearn Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ Show Notes Links:  Read this new report, just published by international human rights foundation Global Rights Compliance, exposing Russia’s disinformation campaign - https://globalrightscompliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Manufacturing-Impunity.pdf  Read more about the minerals deal https://www.politico.eu/article/us-donald-trump-volodymyr-zelenskyy-ukraine-parliament-minerals-deal-approved/  Ukraine Business News - https://ubn.news UBN Network - https://ubn.network/  Podcast History in the Making: The War in Ukraine - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/history-in-the-making-the-war-in-ukraine/id1752915858 The Ukrainian Action Heroes Rehabilitation Program teaches Ukrainian veterans with PTSD to ski and provides psychological support:  You can support their work with Ukrainian veterans at: www.UkrainianAction.com Arthur Snell in conversation with Romeo Kokriatski: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ukraine-and-america-the-great-betrayal/id1704344656?i=1000706415200 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

FIRSTLY, PLS JOIN THE SUBSTACK TO COME TO OUR LIVE SHOW NOW OPEN TO ALL DISORDER LISTENERS Wednesday MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. You can sign up here: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html     NOW TO THIS EPISODE: As Russia seeks a maximalist deal to secure its gains in Ukraine via negotiations with the Trump Administration, Putin is still trying to spread even more Disorder globally.     Are the Russians, in fact, the top table Disorderer globally? And if so, why? What internal domestic politics are driving that Disorder?    This week, Jason Pack is joined by Emily Ferris, a Senior Research Fellow in the International Security Studies department at RUSI, specialising in Russian domestic politics. Before joining RUSI in 2018, Emily worked at Control Risks - a London consultancy firm - as a Russian security and politics analyst, advising clients conducting business in Russia.     Jason and Emily discuss the complexities of Russia's internal dynamics, its infrastructure conundrums, its role as a disordering power, and whether there is genuine domestic opposition within the country.    Plus: Railways, Ports, Siberian governorships, Putin’s negotiation tactics with the Trump administration, Russia's territorial ambitions, and the ideological components driving its actions on the world stage. And as Emily and Jason close the conversation, they discuss the future of Russia post-Putin and – to Order the Disorder – Emily explains her view on importance of cultivating serious academic expertise in understanding domestic Russian affairs.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For a special edition of the podcast, we hear a conversation between Jason and Andrew Keen on his KeenOn podcast. They discuss: is the American Dream Dead? Can you truly reinvent yourself in the US compared to Europe? And is there still hope for America going forward?    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  To get tickets to our RUSI event on 14th May visit: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html     Get the KeenOn podcast at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keen-on-america/id1448694012   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

JOIN OUR SUBSTACK TO COME TO THE DISORDER LIVE SHOW MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. INFO IN THE LINKS BELOW   NOW TO THIS EPISODE: Alex and Jason take listener questions that explore the chaotic political landscape shaped by Trump. Our brilliant Mega Orderers have asked about: What are Trump’s true goals and how aligned are they with Russia; where is this going to end; and how should functioning democracies respond?     Bouncing off listeners’ ideas, Alex and Jason discuss: new forms of ‘spheres of influence’ imperialism; how Trumpian advisors, like the influencer Rasputin Laura Loomer, recycle Russian talking points;  could Canada, the UK, New Zealand and Australia work together to forge an alternative order? Is crypto just a vehicle for corruption? And how do you deal with switching from driving on one side of the road to the other?    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:    Disorder Podcast Live: Ordering the Global Financial Disorder  17:30 – 20:00 BST;  14 May 2025     Join us for a live recording of the Disorder Podcast with Tom Keatinge, Director of the Centre for Finance and Security at RUSI IN LOND AT 61 Whitehall  To attend become a paid for member of the Ordering the Disorder Substack here and then follow the RUSI prompts to attend: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-1730-may-14?triedRedirect=true    Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind The Lines, with Jonathan Terra: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-crisis-in-the-atlantic-alliance-ep-2/id1704344656?i=1000702371956   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Trump’s trade war heats up and his anti-NATO rhetoric continues, America’s allies are having to face a new reality: the global superpower can no longer be relied upon. As core allies like the EU, UK and Canada recalibrate, what does that mean for America? And what does that mean for America’s traditional European allies who rely on the U.S. for their defence?    To discuss the future of NATO and Five Eyes, Jason is joined by longtime friend of the Pod, Kori Schake. She has lived her entire professional life advocating for the Transatlantic Alliance and American global leadership. She started her career as NATO desk officer at DoD under GHW Bush and is now Director of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI).    Kori and Jason look at what might happen if America further withdraws from the world and abandons its traditional allies; what happens next in Ukraine; if Trump has a real peace plan; and how his cabinet members are acting like a megaphone rather than as genuine advisors. The duo look at scary scenerios: like what happens if the US tried to kick Canada out of the Five Eyes Intelligence sharing partnership and why Trump’s allies drive his policy choices towards the extremes.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support us as we try to support NATO and Five Eyes - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  Hear Kori previously on Episode 6 NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9472a8b7d262dd9fb0cd9827e8947964     Read Kori’s piece in The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/02/intelligence-agencies-weakened/681711/     Check out her views on Signalgate: https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/the-wrong-signals-the-proper-role-of-a-defense-secretary/     And hear her on AEI’s ‘What the Hell’ Podcast talking US Defence policy: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wth-a-european-supreme-allied-commander-of-nato/id1467993804?i=1000701043889   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices