In the 1960s, mathematician Benoît Mandelbrot began exploring a concept he initially called self-similarity—geometric forms whose parts resemble the whole. A simple example is a straight line: any segment of it is also a straight line. But this kind of geometry also appears in nature, like in the head of Romanesco broccoli. Each floret forms a spiral that mirrors the spiral arrangement of the florets on the entire head. In 1975, Mandelbrot named this phenomenon a fractal. It turns out fractals are everywhere in nature: the way rivers branch into tributaries, or how a tree trunk grows branches, which then grow twigs. More recently, researchers have suggested that human brains recognize these fractal patterns—sometimes subconsciously—and because we associate them with nature, seeing fractals can evoke similar calming effects as being in a natural environment. So, why discuss fractals on a podcast about sustainable architecture and design? Because fractals are common in pre-modern architecture—found in the ornaments of Gothic cathedrals and the niches of medieval mosques—and today, many designers apply fractal principles to objects and materials, creating products that evoke the same sense of well-being as natural environments. In this episode of Deep Green, created in partnership with Momentum and recorded live from NeoCon 2025, host Avi Rajagopal sits down with Dr. Richard Taylor, whose research underpins our understanding of fractal patterns’ impact, and Anastasia and Martin Lesjak of 13&9, who apply this research in their designs—including a new wallcovering collection for Momentum called Renaturation. Resources Momentum Renaturation Collection 13&9 Design Dr. Richard Taylor’s Research This episode was produced in partnership with Momentum and recorded live in the NeoCon Podcast Lounge Powered by SURROUND. Thank you to our Lounge sponsor, Material Bank, and product partners: HÅG, Stylex, KI Wall, and Turf. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When we think of all the ways we could be designing better buildings—especially commercial buildings like office towers or education spaces—there’s one lever that people still don’t pay enough attention to: furniture. Some numbers for context—about 8 million tons of office furniture end up in U.S. landfills every year. And for a standard office renovation, furniture and furnishings account for about half of the space’s carbon footprint. So yes, furniture can help prevent harm in the world. It can help us make better buildings. But here’s the exciting part: furniture can also be a tool for doing a whole lot of good. We touch and interact with furniture every day. Well-designed furniture can make a big difference to our health and well-being. It also takes skill and craft to produce, which means furniture can uplift and empower communities and involve them in finding solutions for people and the planet. In this episode of Deep Green, created in partnership with Allsteel and recorded live from NeoCon 2025, host Avi Rajagopal sits down with two guests who’ve been helping organizations make real impact through their furniture and architectural product selections: Lisa Brunie-McDermott, Director of Corporate Social Responsibility at HNI Corp., and Madison Gentry, Architectural Product Sales Enablement Manager at Allsteel. Listen in as they discuss how using healthy, beautiful materials in furniture and furnishings can have a multiplier effect on our buildings. Resources: “How the Furniture Industry Is Stepping Up on Circularity” Allsteel Sustainability HNI Corporate Sustainability See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

BIFMA's longstanding support for the furniture manufacturing industry, the evolution of sustainability certifications, and the importance of industry standards now more than ever.

Should we focus on making PVC as safe and clean as possible—or invest in finding alternative materials that offer the same performance benefits?

Buildings account for 40 percent of global carbon emissions. The construction industry generates nearly a third of all waste in our cities and built environments. The buildings we live and work in influence 11 of the 23 social determinants of health—factors that shape our well-being. And the construction sector is also the second most at risk for labor exploitation and modern-day slavery. We get a lot wrong when we make buildings, and we've spent the last three decades trying to fix that. But what if we shifted our focus—not just doing less bad, but doing more good? That’s the promise of regenerative design: the idea that buildings can help nature regenerate, not just minimize damage. In this episode of Deep Green, host Avi Rajagopal sits down with one of the pioneers of regenerative design, Jason McLennan, chief sustainability officer at Perkins&Will. McLennan is the mind behind transformative frameworks like the Living Building Challenge, the WELL Standard, and the Living Product Challenge, as well as the Declare, Just, and Net Zero certifications. His work has earned him prestigious honors including the Buckminster Fuller Prize, the ENR Award of Excellence, and an Ashoka Fellowship. If anyone can help us see the big picture of sustainability in architecture, it’s Jason McLennan. Tune in for a conversation about the future of buildings, design, and how we can create a world where architecture heals rather than harms. This season of Deep Green is produced in partnership with Mannington Commercial. Resources The Living Building Challenge The International Living Future Institute The WELL Building Standard The Living Product Challenge Perkins&Will Sustainability Declare Label Program See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Avi Rajagopal with Guy Geier discussing connections between sustainability and design.

What makes one product more sustainable than another? It’s a question that anyone concerned with their impact on the planet must confront. How do we choose the right couch, coffee machine, flooring, tiles, or curtain wall system—so that we’re doing the most good for both people and the environment? That’s the question Lisa Gralnek has been working to answer. Gralnek is the U.S. Managing Director and Global Head of Sustainability and Impact at the iF Design Awards—one of the largest and most prestigious design award programs in the world. This year, 131 jurors evaluated nearly 11,000 entries from 66 countries, judging everything from appliances to automobiles, furnishings to buildings. For the first time, sustainability accounted for 20 percent of the score for every submission. So how does an international awards program assess sustainability across such diverse design disciplines, regions, and product categories? Listen to this episode of Deep Green, as METROPOLIS editor in chief Avi Rajagopal sits down with Gralnek to discuss how the iF Design Awards are tackling this challenge. This season of Deep Green is produced in partnership with Mannington Commercial. Resources iF DESIGN AWARDS Sustainability and the iF DESIGN AWARDS See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If there’s one defining trend in American architecture over the last decade, it’s the rediscovery of wood as a construction material. Mass timber buildings—made from large wooden panels, columns, and beams—are rising across North America, with developers racing to construct the tallest wooden tower. A new contender, the 32-story Edison in Milwaukee, just broke ground and is set to claim the title of the tallest mass timber building in the Western Hemisphere. But why are American developers, architects, and builders all timberstruck? There are the carbon emissions—wood pulls down carbon dioxide from the atmosphere as trees grow, so these buildings are a tool in the fight against climate change. Plus, they are quick to construct and can be cheaper to build. So should we start building everything out of wood? In this episode of Deep Green, METROPOLIS editor in chief Avi Rajagopal speaks with two experts to unpack the potential of mass timber. First, Columbia University professor and author Lindsey Wikstrom discusses how architecture and construction need to evolve to fully embrace timber-based design. Then, DLR Group principal Stephen Cavanaugh shares insights from his extensive experience designing over three million square feet of mass timber buildings, as part of the largest collection of mass timber buildings in North America. Join us as we dive deep into the thinking behind and the practice of mass timber architecture. This season of Deep Green is produced in partnership with Mannington Commercial. Resources: Designing the Forest and other Mass Timber Futures Finding a Future for Mass Timber in Hospitality DLR Group: Hines T3 Partnership Episode art: Photo by Creative Sources Photography/Rion Rizzo, courtesy DLR Group See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Buildings account for 40 percent of the world’s carbon emissions. If you’re an architect, or a frequent listener to this podcast, you already know that. But in their new book, Build Like It’s the End of the World, Sandeep Ahuja and Patrick Chopson frame buildings and carbon emissions in a way that might change how you think about it: “Buildings offer some of the most cost-efficient ways of reducing carbon emissions and combatting climate change. This is because, unlike carbon capture or more efficient cars, buildings have a lot of room for improvement in their design and construction, which is often not even simulated or cost optimized.” Ahuja and Chopson are the cofounders of Cove, an AI-powered consulting and technology platform that helps building designers and owners do just that—optimize buildings for both lower carbon emissions and lower costs. Every year, architects across the U.S. report their progress on reducing carbon emissions to the AIA, and Cove is the #1 tool they use to measure their impact. The goal? A 70 percent reduction in the building industry’s emissions by 2030. In this episode of Deep Green: Deep Cut, METROPOLIS editor in chief Avinash Rajagopal sits down with Ahuja and Chopson as they break down how Cove works, why they think we ignore cost and profit to our own peril, and how AI will be critical to the future of climate action. This season of Deep Green is produced in partnership with Mannington Commercial. Resources: cove Build Like It’s the End of the World Three Technologies Are Changing how We Design for Climate   See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Biophilic design might be trending on social media, but it’s far more than an aesthetic—it’s a transformative approach to creating spaces that make us happier, calmer, and healthier. In this episode of Deep Green: Deep Cut, METROPOLIS editor in chief Avinash Rajagopal dives into the science and philosophy behind biophilic design with Bill Browning, founder of Terrapin Bright Green, and Catie Ryan, director of projects at the firm. These leading voices in biophilic design share their insights on the profound impact of creating spaces that connect us to nature. As Terrapin Bright Green marks the 10th anniversary of its 14 Patterns of Biophilic Design, Browning and Ryan reflect on how their research has shaped the field, including the introduction of a new pattern: “Awe.” They share how these principles deliver measurable outcomes in projects like the reimagined Portland International Airport, where stress-filled spaces became calming, passenger-friendly environments under the terminal’s nine-acre roof. Tune in to learn how biophilic strategies—from nature-inspired fractals to immersive natural elements—are improving well-being, reducing stress, and redefining the built environment. This season of Deep Green is produced in partnership with Mannington Commercial. Resources: Moshe Safdie: The Future of Urban Density What Is and Is Not Biophilic Design? 14 Patterns of Biophilic Design See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this bonus episode of Deep Green, host Avi Rajagopal reflects on the thought-provoking questions that have defined the show (Can bio-based plastics truly save the planet? Is recycling our hope for the future?) as he offers a glimpse into the exciting upcoming season, Deep Green: Deep Cut Edition. Listen and revisit standout moments from past episodes with some of the smartest people in design. And get ready for more fascinating discussions as Rajagopal sits down with sustainability visionaries and trailblazers to dive even deeper into how we can make buildings better for the planet—and for all of us—in the season ahead. This season of Deep Green is produced in partnership with Mannington Commercial. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Enjoy Sense of Space by Turf now available on all podcast platforms. An architect and designer are on a journey to help their community understand the nuances of designing for the built environment. Join Ella Hazard and Faraz Shah through questions and conversations while they explore all the stuff we interact with as designers, architects, and people. Please enjoy the following episode: What are the elements of a vibe? Is “vibe” something we can curate, or is it best when it occurs organically? Faraz and Ella unpack some SAT words to describe how our bodies respond to spaces and ways to design for all senses. By better understanding ourselves and our senses, can we learn how to integrate this approach into the creation of a “vibe”? See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Join us live from NeoCon 2024 as we dive into the transformative world of sustainable textiles with our special guests, Dean Lindsley, VP of Pallas Textiles, and Geraldine Blanchot, founder of Limn and Loom.

Join Avi as he delves into the surprising climate impact of office furniture, exploring how the industry is addressing its significant role in carbon emissions and the potential for meaningful change with insights from leaders at KI, Allstee, and Steelcase.

In this episode, Room & Board director of sustainability Emily McGarvey joins Avi to discuss why the retailer decided to aim for B Corp certification, how they went about it, and the challenges they faced—but also what it means at a very fundamental level for the furniture industry.

Discover industry tools and resources for circular design, as Avi Rajagopal and Samantha Sager discuss actionable steps we can take toward tackling the challenges discussed throughout this season of Deep Green. How can we make an impact on an individual level? How can we educate ourselves and those around us? What organizations can we turn to for guidance? Incredible tools, research, and innovations are helping the industry move in the right direction but to meet the moment we will have to shift away from our culture of consumption and redefine the roles of architects and designers in shaping a sustainable future. Hear from Rajagopal on his hopes for the journey forward.     Chapters  Review of the principles of circularity  How can we pursue circularity as individuals?  How can we pursue circularity as a community?  Industry resources and tools  Rethinking the designer’s role    Resources  Salvage Superstar: Renovation Angel  Rheaply Brings Ingenuity to Recycling Building Materials  Arup’s Circular Buildings Toolkit  Two Platforms Help Designers Specify Low-Carbon Interiors  Build Reuse   Deep Green is produced by Samantha Sager, Wize Grazette, Lauren Volker, Rachel Senatore, and Hannah Viti, and is part of the SURROUND podcast network. Special thanks to Avi Rajagopal, Editor in Chief of METROPOLIS, for his insights. Recorded at the podcast studio by Vornado in the Penn 1 building in Manhattan.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this special bonus episode, Avi Rajagopal sits down with materials expert Dr. Andrew Dent. As executive vice president of research at Material ConneXion, which for 25 years has been empowering designers with access to innovative materials, Dent says he has seen increasing excitement from his clients around sustainability over the past decade. But making the most responsible choices in the world of materials can be very complex. Listen as he shares how he navigates these tricky waters, the challenges with recycling, his optimism around chemical recycling, why he’s more excited about new processes than the materials themselves, and more. Chapters A little bit about Material ConneXion The responsible materials landscape Recycled and renewable materials What is chemical recycling? Biobased and biodegradable materials The promise of processes Resources Material ConneXion Deep Green is produced by Rachel Senatore, Lauren Volker, and Hannah Viti, and is part of the SURROUND podcast network. Special thanks to Avi Rajagopal, Editor in Chief of METROPOLIS, for his insights. Recorded at the podcast studio by Vornado in the Penn 1 building in Manhattan. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Learn how we can deepen the connection between the built environment and the natural world, as Avi Rajagopal and Samantha Sager discuss the third principle of circular design: regenerating nature. Navigating the complexities of where materials are derived from, how they are made, and what happens to them at the end of their useful life is crucial as architects and interior designers work to support a more circular economy. What defines a biobased product? How do we responsibly source these materials? Is a biobased plastic always biodegradable? Hear from Rajagopal on the ideas and experiments coming out of the industry designed to return more materials go back into their natural cycles and loops on this planet.    Chapters  The third principle of circularity: regenerating nature  What does biobased actually mean?  Biobased vs. Biodegradable  Success story: a completely biodegradable chair  Responsibly sourcing biobased materials  Infrastructure and composting    Resources  PROWL Urges Designers to Consider the Afterlife of Products  Model No. Furniture  Natural Habitat: A Tranquil Retreat in Cold Spring    Deep Green is produced by Samantha Sager, Wize Grazette, Lauren Volker, Rachel Senatore, and Hannah Viti, and is part of the SURROUND podcast network. Special thanks to Avi Rajagopal, Editor in Chief of METROPOLIS, for his insights. Recorded at the podcast studio by Vornado in the Penn 1 building in Manhattan.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Explore the intricacies of material recycling, as Avi Rajagopal and Samantha Sager pick up where they left off last week, focusing on the second principle of a circular economy: circulating products and materials at their highest value. Are all materials suitable for recycling? How can we make sure that recycled or reused materials perform to the standards of commercial settings? How can we better design products and buildings for their end of life? Hear from Rajagopal on some innovative ways our industry is circulating products and materials, recycling more responsibly — and giving nature a much-needed break.    Chapters Circulating products and materials at their highest value Recycling obstacles (incentive, policy, and more) Success story: Nylon The hierarchy of recycling strategies Designing for disassembly    Resources  METROPOLIS Climate Toolkit   The Ellen MacArthur Foundation  METROPOLIS July/August 2023: This New Upholstery Line Features Yarn Made From Marine Plastic    Deep Green is produced by Samantha Sager, Wize Grazette, Lauren Volker, Rachel Senatore, and Hannah Viti, and is part of the SURROUND Podcast Network. Special thanks to Avi Rajagopal, Editor in Chief of METROPOLIS, for his insights. Recorded at the podcast studio by Vornado in the Penn 1 building in Manhattan. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How we can reuse more responsible and live a little bit closer to harmony with nature?