Joseph Torigian’s The Party’s Interest Comes First: The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping is a monumental scholarly achievement — easily a contender for one of the best China books of the decade. Joseph’s goal, in his own words, was to “shine as much light into the darkness of the past as possible” to understand the nature of authoritarian politics, and he succeeds beyond my wildest expectations. This biography gives me a feel for Chinese politics that I honestly thought I’d never have. It does an incredible job of digging deep to shed light on some of the most consequential moments in CCP history, as well as conveying what it was like to live as a senior official under Mao and Deng. Reading it was a powerful experience at both an intellectual and human level. We get memorable vignettes, like 15-year-old Xi Zhongxun attempting to assassinate a teacher, or General Peng Dehuai using his shoe to silence Xi Zhongxun’s snoring in their shared bunk. In this interview, we discuss: What we can learn about authoritarianism, the CCP, and China’s future from studying Xi’s father, Torigian’s methodology for uncovering hidden Party history, How the Party became an existential source of meaning, and how it weaponized suffering to paradoxically deepen political loyalty, The arc of Xi Zhongxun’s life — from a young revolutionary to key advocate of reform — and his role during Tiananmen, The interplay of family, love, and career under the all-encompassing shadow of the Party, The role of “Surrogate fathers” and patronage in navigating political ascent, How literature shaped China’s early revolutionaries, and even impacted the Party as we know it today. Co-hosting today is Jon Sine, former ChinaTalk intern. Outro music: The Temptations - Papa Was A Rolling Stone (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nathan Lambert (https://www.interconnects.ai/), Jasmine Sun (https://jasmi.news/) and I kick off a new series 'Overfit' to talk how AI is shaping the future of media, why Nathan just needs $100m to take on Deepseek, and how to make money in this creator economy. Outtro music: Todd Terje, Preben Goes to Acapulco https://open.spotify.com/track/70jWHwvymR4x1PUXXrUD1S Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jake Newby, author of the China music substack Concrete Avalanche, presents his official playlist of China’s best new music. It includes ADHD-inspired hip hop, experimental ambient music from rural China, and Shanghai cold wave, finishing off with a “mind-blowing” hyperpop track. Tracklist: 00:00 ‘Rhyme’ – Rubey Hu 01:02 ‘The Last of the Mohicans’ – SMZB 生命之饼 04:46 ‘秋茄子之味’ – 红发少年杀人事件 09:04 ‘The Wanderer of Renfengli 仁丰里的闲逛者‘ – DaYe 大叶 12:08 ‘back to the pond 1’ – Jian Cui 15:57 ‘Chapter II’ (excerpt) – Chen Mulian et al for xuán yīn 21:13 ‘月光爱人 De Luna Amour’ – 黑木 Heimu 27:27 ‘Ⱪorⱪetteng ⱪobeze / The Kobyz of Korkut 霍尔赫特的库布孜‘ (excerpt) – Mamer 马木尔 35:38 ‘སྒྲོལ་མའི་བསྟོད་པ་། Praise to Tara 度母赞’ – Kalzang Samdrub 37:08 ‘我不知不觉不伦不类’ – 小老虎 J-Fever 39:56 ‘1911 4th Mov. (live) 一九一一 第四回’ (excerpt) – Zhaoze 沼泽 46:55 ‘本该走神的(Should've Been Lost)‘ – 张醒婵 Nono 49:28 ‘失乐园’ – DJ小女孩 DJ Gurl Some of these tracks are available on YouTube! We've aggregated those links on the ChinaTalk Substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How does Russia prevent uprisings, and what can other authoritarians learn from Moscow’s methods of coup control? For the second anniversary of the Wagner uprising, ChinaTalk interviewed London-based historian Kamil Galeev, who was also a classmate of Jordan’s at Peking University. We discuss… Why the Wagner Group rebelled in 2023, and why the coup attempt ultimately failed, How Wagner shifted the Kremlin’s assessment of internal political challengers, Similarities between post-Soviet doomerism and the American right, Historical examples of foreign policy inflienced by a victimhood mentality, Barriers to Chinese hegemony. Outro Music: Султан Лагучев - Любовь беда (YouTube Link) Today’s post is brought to you by 80,000 Hours, a nonprofit that helps people find fulfilling careers that do good. 80,000 Hours — named for the average length of a career — has been doing in-depth research on AI issues for over a decade, producing reports on how the US and China can manage existential risk, scenarios for potential AI catastrophe, and examining the concrete steps you can take to help ensure AI development goes well. Their research suggests that working to reduce risks from advanced AI could be one of the most impactful ways to make a positive difference in the world. They provide free resources to help you contribute, including: Detailed career reviews for paths like AI safety technical research, AI governance, information security, and AI hardware, A job board with hundreds of high-impact opportunities, A podcast featuring deep conversations with experts like Carl Shulman, Ajeya Cotra, and Tom Davidson, Free, one-on-one career advising to help you find your best fit. To learn more and access their research-backed career guides, visit 80000hours.org/ChinaTalk. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is America cooked? We check in on what clarity the past three months have given us on the long term dynamic between the US and China. Guests include: Peter Harrell, former Biden official who hosts the Security Economics podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/security-economics/id1794022711) Matt Klein of the https://theovershoot.co/ substack Kevin Xu of the https://interconnect.substack.com/ subsctack Outtro music: Emitt Rhodes, Textile Factory, 1970 https://open.spotify.com/track/1JO2jo0Cyg75mmCFlSW2bB?si=1706c809e80b4bd4 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Also, somehow, the Third Temple, twink human sacrifice for the AI labs, and the SemiAnalysis Desi Waifu 3000. Outtro Music (sounded like a let's get dylan a girlfriend prayer to me?) Finding Her, Kushagra, Bharath, Saaheal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZtSnQBsBW0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Patrick McGee is the author of Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company. Our discussion led us through a detailed history of Apple’s relationship with China, where iPhone manufacturing became a project of nation-building. Cohosting today is Kyle Chan of the High Capacity Substack. Today, our conversation covers: Why Apple moved production to China in the 1990s, and why it struggles to leave, How Apple’s obsession with perfection catalyzed China’s industrial upgrading, The political side of production in China, including how Apple’s relationship with the Chinese authorities has evolved over time, The rise of Foxconn and other partners in Apple’s network, Fun anecdotes about Apple’s management style, including the “Divorce Avoidance Program.” Read ChinaTalk's article China's AR glasses market here. Outro music: Apple Blossom — The White Stripes (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Eva Dou is the author of The House of Huawei, an excellent book covering the personal, economic, and geopolitical arc of Huawei, China’s most important company. We discuss… The life of Huawei’s founder, Ren Zhengfei, who rose from Cultural Revolution disgrace to become one of China’s richest businessmen, How Ren built Huawei, and what makes their corporate culture unique, Huawei’s strategic entry into developing and high-risk markets like Libya, Iraq, and Iran, and whether the controversial deal with the UK is a threat to national security, How Huawei outcompeted Chinese state-owned telecom companies and eventually achieved national champion status, How Ren’s personal interest in foreign art, music, and architecture advances Huawei’s market share. Co-hosting today is Kyle Chan, a postdoc at Princeton and author of the High Capacity Substack. Outro music: Back Fire - Annabel Yao (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Renaissance Philanthropy — in my opinion, the most exciting S&T philanthropic venture in the US — is getting a one-year check-in. Kumar Garg first appeared on the show right before I went on paternity leave, and now we’re back for round two. Before founding Renaissance Philanthropy, Kumar worked in the Obama Office of Science and Technology Policy and spent time at Schmidt Futures. We discuss… How Renaissance ⁠catalyzed⁠ over $200 million in philanthropic funding in its first year, The goals of the organization and how it has responded to Trump’s S&T funding cuts, What sets Renaissance apart from traditional philanthropic organizations, and lessons for China-focused research foundations, AI applications in education, from tutoring to dyslexia screening, Donor psychology, “portfolio regret,” and how to build trust within a philanthropic network. Thanks to ElevenLabs for sponsoring this episode. Check out the ElevenReader text-to-speech app here. Outro music: Mercy, Mercy, Mercy - Cannonball Adderley (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Josh Wolfe of Lux Capital joins ChinaTalk to talk: Elon, Trump and the tech right The future of the R&D base and importance of immigrants Why short videos aren't terrible after all? Philanthropy and books Read the social history of the machine gun! Outtro Music: Youba by The Sway Machinery and Khaira Arby https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYNUm4UfoAs Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Two weeks in a row what has gotten into us. Jordan tries to save the NSF and immigrant visas with an AI researcher letter Our quarterly AI mandate of heaven update (there's been alot of movement!) Dylan makes bad slop jokes The Ezra Klein/Dylan Patel beef begins We recommend the amazing book Mitsui: Three Centuries of Japanese Business Outtro music: באמפרים” (pronounced Bam-pe-rim, roughly “Bumpers”) by the Israeli hip-hop duo Ness & Stilla, 2024 https://open.spotify.com/track/3FihyZ7YA7vrNiSUfWww10?si=9817a9122faf4b08 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dylan bonds with Nvidia's CFO and I try to keep the GPUs in actual democracies. Outtro Music: FaceTime, Karencici, 2018. https://open.spotify.com/track/2PNDZp0ultOJrQL4AVENPO?si=46cdf72cdffb40a3 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What can Mao Zedong teach us about Donald Trump? To find out, ChinaTalk interviewed the legendary sinologist Orville Schell, who visited China during the Cultural Revolution and is currently at the Asia Society. We discuss… Mao Zedong’s psychology and political style, Similarities and differences between Mao and Trump, How Mao-era traumas reverberate in modern China, including how the Cultural Revolution has influenced the Xi family, How Zhou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping survived the Cultural Revolution, and which of their tactics could be useful in modern America, What civil society can do to defend democracy over the next four years. Co-hosting is Alexander Boyd, associate editor at China Books Review and former ChinaTalk intern. Read Orville's article, "Trump's Cultural Revolution," here. Read the Asia Society piece on religion and political power here. Orville's crazy Asia Society event, From Pontius Pilate to Chairman Mao: Religion and Politics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opw9vqpPBqQ&ab_channel=AsiaSociety Book recommendations: Joseph Torigian - The Party's Interests Come First: The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping Perry Link - The Anaconda in the Chandelier - ⁠excerpt⁠ from ChinaFile William Shirer - The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich Victor Klemperer - I Will Bear Witness: A Diary of the Nazi Years, 1933-1941 Outro music: Bach's Partita No. 1 for Solo Violin in B Minor, BWV 1002: VIII. Double, Gidon Kremer https://open.spotify.com/track/3x1Rdpgy6QGSlW9tItHYdm?si=20fa2051dc5d4f91 Aria from J.S. Bach Cantata 'Schwingt freudig euch empor' https://open.spotify.com/track/5pIy4Gll1YywqKX25EbbOb?si=520327db35f54201 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Just how weird will the AI-powered future be? To discuss, ChinaTalk interviewed Nathan Lambert, who writes the Interconnects newsletter and researches AI at the Allen Institute. We get into… Why OpenAI is trending toward engagement farming and sycophancy, The state of Chinese AI innovation six months post-DeepSeek, and the factors influencing diffusion of Chinese vs American models, Meta’s organizational culture and how it influences the quality of the Llama models, Unconventional career advice for the AI age. Nathan’s book recommendation: Careless People: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism by Sarah Wynn-Williams Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does the future of industrial policy in America look like, and what state capacity investments are needed to get there? How does China factor into the future of the U.S. semiconductor industry? And what do government affairs offices at large technology firms actually do? To explore these questions, we’re concluding our CSIS Chip Chat series with Bruce Andrews. Bruce has had a long career on Capitol Hill, led government affairs for Ford, served as Deputy Secretary of Commerce under President Obama, and most recently headed government affairs at Intel. He’s now a fellow at CSIS. We discuss… The decline of bipartisanship and how to bring expertise back to Capitol Hill, The case for a new “Department of Competitiveness”  Industry’s role in policymaking and what it took to get semiconductor manufacturers on board with the CHIPS Act, Why Silicon Valley suddenly became interested in politics, How to optimize industrial policy in a stick-focused political environment. Outro music: Moon River, Frank Ocean 2018 (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Does anybody really understand China? Could America pursue an abundance agenda without the threat of the PRC? Can podcasters change the world? To discuss, ChinaTalk interviewed Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, who need no introduction, as well as Dan Wang, who has written beautiful annual letters and is back in the US as a research fellow at Kotkin’s Hoover History Lab. He has an excellent book called Breakneck coming out this August, but we’re saving that show for a little later this year. Today, our conversation covers… The use of China as a rhetorical device in US domestic discourse, Oversimplified aspects of Chinese development, and why the bipartisan consensus surrounding Beijing might fail to produce a coherent strategy, The abundance agenda and technocratic vs prophetic strategies for policy change, How to conceptualize political actors complexly, including unions, corporations, and environmental groups, The value of podcasting and strategies for positively impacting the modern media environment. Outtro Music: Recomposed by Max Richter, I went with a deep cut Autumn 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUEeqvp_BrQ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can China use military force to achieve its political goals, without triggering nuclear war? To find out, ChinaTalk interviewed Fiona Cunningham, a professor of Political Science at the University of Pennsylvania and author of the new book, Under the Nuclear Shadow: China’s Information-Age Weapons in International Security. Co-hosting today is Michael Horowitz, another Penn professor who served in Biden’s Department of Defense. We discuss… How to use open source PLA documents to conduct deep research, The evolution of Chinese defense strategy, including the impact of the third Taiwan Strait crisis, Nuclear modernization and China’s “no first use” policy, How the PLA makes decisions, including why they chose to develop cyber capabilities, anti-satellite weapons, and hypersonic missiles over proposed alternatives. Outtro Music: Beauty by Gui Bian https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTlfSOCwYJ8 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What has happened in the past 100 days to America’s science and technology ecosystem? What are China's ambitions and how is the government trying to take advantage of American uncertainty? And what can we learn from China's war mobilization exercises? To explore these questions, we're joined by Divyansh Kaushik and Alex Rubin, who both work at Beacon Global Strategies. Divyansh holds an AI PhD from Carnegie Mellon, and Alex spent the past decade at the CIA focusing on China and emerging technologies. We discuss… The Historical origins of the US R&D model, and the division of labor between universities, government, and industry, How budget cuts will impact the NSF, NIH, NIST, and DoD basic research, Why and how China attempts to emulate US research institutions, What a leaked wargame exercise from Guangdong province can tell us about China’s grand strategy, How institutions like ChinaTalk can complement the IC with fresh, independent research. Outro music: The Elements - Tom Lehrer (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What is Trump doing to extended deterrence? I got Polymarket to create a market on whether a US ally will acquire nuclear weapons in 2025. It’s currently trading at 8%. Are we buyers or sellers? To discuss, ChinaTalk interviewed Vipin Narang, professor at MIT, who served as Acting Assistant Secretary of Defense responsible for nuclear deterrence policy during the Biden administration; Pranay Vaddi, a senior fellow at the Center for Nuclear Security Policy at MIT who worked on arms control and non-proliferation on Biden’s National Security Council; and Junichi Fukuda, senior research fellow at Tokyo’s Sasakawa Peace Foundation. We get into… The historical development of the American nuclear umbrella, including the “software” and “hardware” components of deterrence, The probability that an American ally will proliferate by 2030, and which countries are the most likely candidates, Why France proliferated despite US objections, How the world might respond to nuclear ambitions from Poland, Japan, or Saudi Arabia, China’s nuclear modernization and deterrence strategies for a multi-polar world. Here's the RAND paper cited: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GUMnuxWoapmEYCw3g3NMUHxzZ6hVwWPi/view?usp=sharing Outro music: Tom Lehrer - Who's Next? (YouTube Link) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Rush Doshi (CFR, Biden NSC, author of the excellent The Long Game) and I run through the US-China tale of the tape. The future of America's relationship with its allies may be the key hinge variable for whether this century turns out to be China's to define. Do give this one a listen. Especially if you're JD Vance! See Rush's Foreign Affairs article with Kurt Campbell here: https://archive.is/ZSTKP Some Japanese outtro music to give the allies some love: Karenai by Bonbero: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJcIOMsOaU&ab_channel=Bonbero What's Popping by JP THE WAVY and friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1LOXU_hBNo&ab_channel=JPTHEWAVY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices