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American Hysteria
chelsey weber-smith
266 episodes
2 days ago
American Hysteria explores how fantastical thinking has shaped our culture – moral panics, urban legends, hoaxes, crazes, fringe beliefs, and national misunderstandings. Poet-turned-podcaster Chelsey Weber-Smith tells the strangest stories from American history and examines the forces that create the reality we share, and sometimes, the reality we don't.
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Society & Culture
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All content for American Hysteria is the property of chelsey weber-smith and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
American Hysteria explores how fantastical thinking has shaped our culture – moral panics, urban legends, hoaxes, crazes, fringe beliefs, and national misunderstandings. Poet-turned-podcaster Chelsey Weber-Smith tells the strangest stories from American history and examines the forces that create the reality we share, and sometimes, the reality we don't.
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Society & Culture
Episodes (20/266)
American Hysteria
#Elsagate (rewind)
This is a rerelease of our 2021 episode. In 2017, YouTube Kids was embroiled in a major scandal when it was discovered that a dark underbelly of inappropriate cartoons, computer animations, and live action videos were lurking just under the surface of the supposedly safeguarded app. With themes of injections, sexuality, violence, scatology, and much more, we will explore these bizarre, uncanny valley videos made by mysterious content creators using low-budget methods and popular characters like Elsa, Spiderman, Peppa Pig, and Shrek in order to generate clicks. But is that their only goal? Some believe in a larger conspiracy to harm our children, but one thing is for sure: our algorithms are out of control. Get some of our new merch at ⁠americanhysteria.com⁠, all profits this month go to The Sameer Project, a Palestinian-led mutual aid group who are on the ground in Gaza delivering food, supplies, and cash envelops to displaced families. Instagram: ⁠⁠@AmericanHysteriaPodcast⁠⁠ ⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on our Urban Legends Hotline at ⁠⁠⁠⁠americanhysteria.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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5 days ago
48 minutes

American Hysteria
Introducing: Conspiracy Theories, Cults, and Crimes
From Jonestown to Heaven’s Gate, to the Octopus Murders and the Waco Siege, the world is full of deception, manipulation, and destruction. Listen to Conspiracy Theories, Cults, and Crimes every Wednesday as we explore the real people at the center of the world’s most shocking secrets and nefarious organizations. Conspiracy Theories, Cults, and Crimes is a Crime House Original. Follow the show now so you don’t miss a single story. Listen and follow here: https://link.podtrac.com/wc9ympte Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1 week ago
8 minutes

American Hysteria
The Disturbing World of Mobile Game Ads with Panic World Podcast
Warning: REALLY WEIRD EPISODE. On social media and YouTube, bizarre, shocking, disgusting, creepy, and confusing animated ads for simple mobile games have popped up over the last few years. In collaboration with the guys from the Panic World podcast, we watch (and describe) some of the freakiest ads I have found over time, analyze the advertising psychology behind these “productions,” and look at the history of these kinds of click-baity internet marketing tricks. Listener beware, this episode contains all manner of uncomfortable and upsetting subject matter, and may not be appropriate for probably anyone. Watch Panic World's video version of this episode on YouTube @panicworldpod later this week and subscribe to their audio wherever you get your podcasts Get some of our new merch at ⁠americanhysteria.com⁠, all profits go to The Sameer Project, a Palestinian-led mutual aid group who are on the ground in Gaza delivering food and supplies to displaced families. ⁠⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on the ⁠⁠⁠Urban Legends Hotline⁠⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1 week ago
1 hour 17 minutes

American Hysteria
Dear Chelsey and Ask Sarah Marshall
In the spirit of American advice columnists Dear Abby and Ann Landers, I am joined by Sarah Marshall of the podcast You’re Wrong About to give our own unique advice to some of the funnier questions sent in to Dear Abby and Ask Ann Landers from the 1950s to the early 2000s. Get some of our new merch at americanhysteria.com, all profits go to The Sameer Project, a Palestinian-led mutual aid group who are on the ground in Gaza delivering food and supplies to displaced families. ⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on the ⁠⁠Urban Legends Hotline⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 weeks ago
1 hour 13 minutes

American Hysteria
DEAR ABBY AND ANN LANDERS
Ann Landers and Abigail Van Buren, also known as Dear Abby, were newspaper advice columnists answering questions and printing statements from their 100 million readers from the 1950s to the early 2000s. The flamboyant, eccentric women behind the columns, Eppie Lederer and Popo Phillips, had a fiery rivalry as they fought for the top spot of the advice column industrial complex. On this episode, I dish about the lives of these (allegedly) one-of-a-kind housewife-oracles and explain how their very public opinions on hot-button issues affected American culture for half a century of colossal political change. Get some of our new merch at americanhysteria.com, all profits this month go to The Sameer Project, a Palestinian-led mutual aid group who are on the ground in Gaza delivering food, supplies, and cash envelops to displaced families. Listen to Magpie Cinema Club Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on our Urban Legends Hotline at ⁠⁠⁠americanhysteria.com⁠⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠ Sound Designer and Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠ Voice Actor: ⁠⁠⁠Will Rogers⁠⁠⁠ Written, Produced, and Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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3 weeks ago
1 hour 13 minutes

American Hysteria
Titanic in Real Time
This is a bonus episode from our subscribers-only podcast Hysteria Home Companion. Our associate producer (and my brother) Riley Swedelius-Smith is here to tell us the absolutely wild and little-known story of how news of the Titanic tragedy traveled to shore as the tragedy was all unfolding. We can use your support right now! ⁠⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get some American Hysteria merch at ⁠americanhysteria.com⁠ and support ⁠The Sameer Project⁠ Leave us a message on the ⁠⁠⁠Urban Legends Hotline⁠⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Song by ⁠Emily Westman⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1 month ago
1 hour 2 minutes

American Hysteria
Polybius: The Arcade Conspiracy
This is a bonus episode from our subscribers-only podcast Hysteria Home Companion. I share the history of an 80s urban legend with our producer Miranda Zickler, one about a dangerous video game that appeared in Portland arcades with possible links to the mysterious government agents known as the Men in Black and then disappeared without a trace. ⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Get some American Hysteria merch at americanhysteria.com and support The Sameer Project Leave us a message on the ⁠⁠Urban Legends Hotline⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Song by Emily Westman Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1 month ago
40 minutes

American Hysteria
Not Just a Phase: Goths Through History with Christine Laskowski
Christine Laskowski shares her research into how an ancient barbarian people known as the Goths came to represent everything from edgy Hot Topic fashion and the band Joy Division to the Notre Dame cathedral and Flannery O'Connor's writing. Christine is the host of the podcast T&J, a limited series about 6th century Byzantium. Listen to the T&J podcast on Apple / Spotify ⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on the ⁠Urban Legends Hotline⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1 month ago
1 hour 19 minutes

American Hysteria
The Imaginary Gods of ChatGPT with Journalist Miles Klee
Miles Klee is the author of a recent Rolling Stone article titled People Are Losing Loved Ones to AI-Fueled Spiritual Fantasies which tells the stories of ChatGPT users who have come to believe that their chatbot is a sentient spiritual being. For this episode, Miles and I discuss the experiences of these ChatGPT worshippers, why the chatbot’s answers have sometimes encouraged this type of divine delusion, and what history has to say about the human relationship between spirituality and technology. Read Miles' Rolling Stone article Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on the Urban Legends Hotline Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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1 month ago
1 hour 4 minutes

American Hysteria
The FBI's White Christian Nation with Lerone A. Martin
Lerone A. Martin is the author of The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism . For this episode, Lerone explains how the FBI, led by J. Edgar Hoover, colluded with religious authorities to shape the soul of America throughout the 20th century. We’ll see how this revamped version of American Christianity spearheaded by Hoover reflected the conservative politics he wanted to see manifest in the national culture. Get a copy of Lerone's book ⁠⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 months ago
1 hour 27 minutes

American Hysteria
Listen Now: American Scandal
Every scandal begins with a lie. But the truth will come out. And then comes the fallout and the outrage. Scandals have shaped America since its founding. From business and politics to sports and society, we look on aghast as corruption, deceit and ambition bring down heroes and celebrities, politicians and moguls. And when the dust finally settles, we’re left to wonder: how did this happen? Where did they trip up, and who is to blame? From the creators of American History Tellers, Business Wars and Tides of History comes American Scandal, where we take you deep into the heart of America’s dark side to look at what drives someone to break the rules and what happens when they’re caught. Hosted by Lindsay Graham. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 months ago
6 minutes

American Hysteria
Staring at the Sun on LSD with Sarah Marshall of 'You're Wrong About'
Have you ever heard the urban legend about the group of hippie college students that went blind while staring at the sun during an LSD trip? This tale became a very powerful anecdote in the 1960s as politicians tried to regulate the spread of acid spread across college campuses. For this episode, Sarah Marshall of the podcast You’re Wrong About jumps down two rabbit holes with me: one that leads to a messy political hoax in Philadelphia and another to a conspiracy theory created, for once, by me. We'll see how a sensational story like this one can help drum up anti-drug public support and lead to the law-and-order victory of an opportunist politician's dreams.  Resources to Help Our Immigrant Neighbors: Immigrant Advocates Network CHIRLA's iRelief Fund NNiR Report ICE Raids Hotlines Listen to 'You're Wrong About' and 'You Are Good' wherever you get your podcasts ⁠⁠⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠ Leave us a message on the Urban Legends Hotline at ⁠americanhysteria.com⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 months ago
1 hour 26 minutes

American Hysteria
The Call is Coming From Inside the House with Sarah Marshall of 'You're Wrong About'
You've probably heard the urban legend called the Babysitter and the Man Upstairs or at least know the idiom it inspired: “The call is coming from inside the house.” Sarah Marshall of the podcasts You’re Wrong About and You Are Good joins me as I share some new ideas about where this tale came from, focused on an epidemic of obscene phone calls in the 1960s and a true crime story that was happening at the same time. We also discuss whether this urban legend may have actually created the entire slasher film genre. Listen to our new house band Magpie Cinema Club Listen to 'You're Wrong About' and 'You Are Good' wherever you get your podcasts ⁠⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠ Leave us a message on the Urban Legends Hotline at americanhysteria.com Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 months ago
1 hour 35 minutes

American Hysteria
THE HIPPIE BABYSITTER BABY ROAST
Have you ever heard the urban legend about the babysitter who takes LSD and accidentally bakes a baby in the oven believing it to be a raw turkey? For this Urban Legends Hotline episode, we will explore the possible origins of and the meaning behind this piece of 1960s folklore. Become a Patron⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠ Leave us a message on our Urban Legends Hotline at ⁠⁠americanhysteria.com⁠⁠ Sound Designer and Associate Producer: ⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠ Voice Actor: ⁠⁠Will Rogers⁠⁠ Written, Produced, and Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 months ago
1 hour 2 minutes

American Hysteria
Context Clues: Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's High
This episode will give some extra context for our upcoming urban legend episodes: The Hippie Babysitter and the Baby Roast, The Babysitter and the Man Upstairs, and the one where the college students go blind staring at the sun on LSD. We use excerpts from our episodes: Fangirls (2022) Suburbia (2020) Mind Control (2019) Become a Patron⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠Apple Podcasts⁠ Leave us a message on the Urban Legends Hotline at americanhysteria.com Sound design and Production by ⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠ Edited by ⁠Miranda Zickler⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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2 months ago
55 minutes

American Hysteria
GENDER REVEAL PARTIES: Pride Rewind
Happy Pride month to all who observe! This is a rerelease of one of our favorite episodes. Over the last ten years, Gender Reveal Parties have exploded, figuratively and literally. Parents, communities, and social media followers alike can witness the moment that parents and families find out the sex of their future baby, but lately, these parties have gotten so out of hand as to cause massive wildfires, explosions, damage to homes, injuries, and death. For this episode, we will try to figure out what in the world is going on here by exploring the history of gendered baby items, of the strange divination methods once used to guess the biological sex, and take a look at the idea of rituals around the mystery of pregnancy. Of course, we’ll also ask questions about the regressive nature of this blue and pink gender binary, and I will share a little about my own childhood growing up as a non-binary kid, a word I wouldn’t know for two decades. Become a Patron⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠ Leave us a message on our Urban Legends Hotline at ⁠⁠americanhysteria.com⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠ Voice Actor: ⁠⁠Will Rogers⁠⁠ Written, Produced, and Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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3 months ago
46 minutes

American Hysteria
The Last Prison Rodeo with Journalist Adam Mahoney
Since 1965, the Louisiana State Penitentiary, also known as Angola, has held an incredibly popular public event known as the Prison Rodeo where incarcerated men participate for cash prizes in contests so dangerous they have been banned from the professional rodeo circuit. Adam Mahoney is a reporter at Capital B and the author of a recent article titled The Wildest Show in the South: Spectacle and Suffering at America’s Biggest Prison. For this episode, Adam discusses with me the surreal reality of the Angola prison rodeo and his experience attending, gives me a background on the dark history of the penitentiary itself, and tells me the various perspectives of those involved in this shocking and deeply American spectacle. Read more of Adam’s work at capitalbnews.org Or follow him on Twitter @AdamLMahoney Leave us a message on the Urban Legends Hotline at americanhysteria.com ⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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3 months ago
1 hour 1 minute

American Hysteria
Mayhem! at the Minecraft Movie with BJ Colangelo
Over the last couple months, groups of Minecraft fans have been making TikTok videos of themselves wrecking havoc in theaters across the nation when their favorite moment of the new Minecraft movie plays. Culture writer and co-host of the podcast The Ends at Prom, BJ Colangelo, teaches me about wtf is going on and together we try not to moral panic while discussing what this new craze means. We’ll also talk about how the Minecraft mayhem compares (or doesn't care) to both The Rocky Horror Picture Show and the rebellious mayhem that we ourselves once wrought upon the nation.   Listen to This Ends at Prom wherever you get your podcasts Follow @BJColangelo on TikTok and Instagram ⁠Become a Patron⁠⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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3 months ago
1 hour 18 minutes

American Hysteria
Lost Boy Larry with Producer Miranda Zickler
In 1973, mysterious communications from a young boy came over CB radios in the Southwest, leading to a massive search and rescue mission that generated far more questions than answers. For this episode, I tell American Hysteria Producer (and co-host of our subscribers-only podcast Hysteria Home Companion) Miranda Zickler about the dubious case now referred to as Lost Boy Larry and go through the tangle of strange new information I feverishly uncovered deep in the archives of newspapers.com. This episode is a shortened version of our subscribers-only podcast Hysteria Home Companion. Head to patreon.com/americanhysteria or subscribe on Apple Podcasts⁠ to get access to Hysteria Home Companion as well as ad-free episodes. Producer and Editor: ⁠⁠Miranda Zickler⁠⁠ Associate Producer: ⁠⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠⁠ Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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3 months ago
1 hour 13 minutes

American Hysteria
BALLOON BOY
In 2009, the news reported live as a six-year-old boy careened through the air at 7,000 feet trapped inside a homemade balloon craft. Millions tuned into the harrowing saga, but once the balloon finally hit the ground, no little boy was found inside. Details then emerged that seemed to indicate it was all a hoax created by a family as part of a PR stunt for a reality TV show. On this episode, we explore the story of Balloon Boy, ask whether the event was indeed a hoax, and look at the early history of the hot air ballooning craze in the 18th and 19th centuries where hoaxes and wild spectacles were a foundational part of the emerging scientific field. Become a Patron⁠ to support our show and get early ad-free episodes and bonus content Or subscribe to American Hysteria on ⁠Apple Podcasts⁠ Leave us a message on our Urban Legends Hotline at ⁠americanhysteria.com⁠ Sound Designer and Associate Producer: ⁠Riley Swedelius-Smith⁠ Producer and Editor: ⁠Miranda Zickler⁠ Voice Actor: ⁠Will Rogers⁠ Written, Produced, and Hosted by Chelsey Weber-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
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4 months ago
59 minutes

American Hysteria
American Hysteria explores how fantastical thinking has shaped our culture – moral panics, urban legends, hoaxes, crazes, fringe beliefs, and national misunderstandings. Poet-turned-podcaster Chelsey Weber-Smith tells the strangest stories from American history and examines the forces that create the reality we share, and sometimes, the reality we don't.