We catch up with my friend and yours, Steve Johnson. We talk about how things have changed since Steve started, to where we are today. Steve and I discuss what it's like talking leather, with people that don't live that leather nerd life style. We talk about how we hold ourselves to a high standers, that our client base will never know. Steve tells us about our plans the beginning of his van life journey. We talk about how to reach out to companies to ask for sponsorships. And of course we talking about marketing as makers. Because it wouldn't be a podcast if we didn't. DUH!!!