In this Season 2 wrap-up of With & For, Dr. Pam King reflects on the multifaceted nature of thriving, emphasizing that it's not a luxury but a necessity for navigating life's complexities. She and her guests reveal thriving as a relational journey that involves deep connection to others, self-discovery, healing, and aligning purpose with practice. Even amidst struggles and challenges, thriving is possible through an open heart, understanding ourselves as "God's masterpieces," and pursuing what is most sacred.

Discover how life's frustrations can actually become opportunities for growth. Dr. Tina Bryson shares how play expands our "window of tolerance," allowing us to work through challenges with more ease and resilience. Psychotherapist and author Dr. Tina Bryson invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of play in our most intimate relationships and family life. In this conversation with Tina Bryson, we discuss: - The importance of play for all ages, especially as a counterbalance to stress, and its role in expanding our window of tolerance. - The difference between free unstructured play and dyadic, relational play, with a focus on child-led play for fostering connection and brain integration in children. - How play helps individuals, particularly children, process emotions and develop emotional flexibility by safely trying on different experiences and feelings. - Practical ways to incorporate playfulness into daily life and relationships, emphasizing that even small moments of shared delight can build significant connections. - And insights into Tina's new book, "The Way of Play," which provides seven strategies for parents to engage in child-led play to help integrate children's brains and strengthen family relationships.

How can we grow into our full potential?—living up to what we know is the best version of ourselves, actualizing our goals, and expressing our deepest purpose in a life of impact and love? Grounded in cognitive science and psychology, best-selling author, podcaster, educator and researcher Scott Barry Kaufman believes that we need to redefine our understanding of greatness and excellence to include our whole selves—our emotions, dreams, failures, and gifts—all to live a life that is fully human, fully yourself. In this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, we discuss: - Education and formation for the whole person, not just our intellect but our bodies, emotions, and spirituality - Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the journey that leads to self-actualization - The difference it makes to see the world through growth rather than our deficiencies - What it means to thrive even in the midst of mental illness - The horizontal dimensions of transcendence - And how to connect and align with your deepest values **Episode Highlights** 1. “You can be mentally ill and thriving.” 2. “Self-actualization is bringing your whole self to the table—not just one part of you.” 3. “Real transcendence is about becoming one with the world—not being more enlightened than others.” 4. “People are far more likely to demand respect than to give it.” 5. “Only you can walk the path.” **Helpful Links and Resources** - Visit [scottbarrykaufman.com](http://scottbarrykaufman.com) - [The Psychology Podcast with Scott Barry Kaufman](https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/) - [*Choose Growth Workbook* by Kaufman & Feingold](https://www.amazon.com/Choose-Growth-Vision-Potential-Possibility/dp/0593234873) - [*Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization](https://www.scottbarrykaufman.com/transcend-book/),* by Scott Barry Kaufman - [Scientific American: Spiritual Narcissism](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/spiritual-narcissism/) - [The Lights Triad Personality Test](https://scottbarrykaufman.com/tests/light-triad-scale/) - [Sensitive Men Rising Documentary](https://sensitivemenrising.org/) - [Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs Reimagined – Big Think](https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/maslow-hierarchy-needs-wrong/) - [Corey Mascara Podcast on Values](https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/corey-mascara-the-art-of-living/) **Show Notes** - Origin Story and Human Complexity - Scott shares his journey from being labeled “ungifted” with an auditory disability to becoming a cognitive scientist. - A pivotal teacher asked, “What are you still doing here?”—sparking self-belief and ambition. - “I was a champion for the quirky kids from the start.” - His work has shifted from an early obsession with greatness to a lifelong pursuit of self-actualization. - “Greatness is tied up in power and status. Self-actualization is about bringing your whole self.” - Reimagining Maslow & The Sailboat Metaphor - Kaufman replaces the hierarchy of needs with a dynamic sailboat metaphor. - The boat represents safety (security, connection, self-esteem); the sail represents growth and transcendence. - “Unless we open our sail and become vulnerable to the wind, we can't move toward what matters.” - Adds collective dimension: “There are other boats in the sea. Some people forget that.” - Contrasts “horizontal transcendence” (connection) with “spiritual narcissism” (superiority). - Mental Illness, Creativity, and Thriving - Challenges the binary between wellness and illness: “You can be mentally ill and thriving.” - Cites research showing creative strengths in children of those with mental illness. - “They get the goodies without the baddies—the imagination without the psychosis.” - Dismantles false dichotomies in psychiatry: labels vs. lived experience. - Encourages integration rather than repression of neurodivergence and emotion. - Alignment, Identity, and Individual Growth - Alignment—not perfection—is the goal of self-actualization. - “Self-actualization coaching isn’t about judgment. It’s about helping people align with their values.” - Different people prioritize different values: connection, power, freedom, meaning. - Encourages reflection: What roles do you cherish most? What do you say yes and no to? - “Ask: What’s my reason for being? What legacy do I want to leave?” - Moral Psychology and Mattering - Discusses mattering and the perils of performative self-importance. - “Some people matter too much… they take up so much space, there’s no room for others.” - Proposes a “mattering ecology” for shared dignity and contribution. - On moral flexibility: “People who scream loudest often don’t like themselves.” - Calls for emotional regulation, reflection, and collective moral grounding in a polarized world. - Relationships, Whole Love, and Spirituality - Introduces the concept of “whole love”—where all parts of the self are seen, accepted, and growing together. - “It's as simple and as hard as that.” - Critiques spiritual narcissism and “dark empaths” who use others for ego validation. - Real empathy requires asking: “Am I helping this person for their sake—or because I need to be needed?” - “Good character doesn’t need an excuse.” - Practical Takeaways & Coaching Tools - Directs listeners to *Choose Growth*, a practical workbook co-authored with Dr. Jordan Feingold. - Reflection prompts: What am I proud of? What do I wish to change? What’s my legacy? - Encourages clarity around values and meaningful roles. - Offers self-coaching questions to foster personal development and alignment. - Provides listeners with tools for discernment, purpose, and sustainable growth. - Pam King’s Key Takeaways - Science and spirituality work together as an integrated pursuit of truth. - Intelligence is so much more than a thought-process. - Self-actualization leads us well beyond the self. - Life is like a sailboat: so let the wind fill your sails as you dance on the waves toward our most valued harbor—and may the tides rise for all of us. - To be a whole-person means resting in a loving compassion for ourselves and others—an openness and oneness with the world. - “Many people could carry you across the bridge, but only you can walk the path.” **About Scott Barry Kaufman** Scott Barry Kaufman is a cognitive scientist, author, and humanistic psychologist exploring the depths of human potential. He is the founding director of the Center for Human Potential and a the best-selling author, speaker, and podcaster. He hosts [The Psychology Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-psychology-podcast/id942777522). And he is author and/or editor of numerous books, including his celebrated [*Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization](https://scottbarrykaufman.com///books/transcend/), [Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined](https://scottbarrykaufman.com///books/ungifted/)*, as well as his latest books, *Choose Growth: A Workbook for Transcending Trauma, Fear, and Self-Doubt* and *Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. I*f you’re interested in more from Scott, visit [scottbarrykaufman.com](http://scottbarrykaufman.com).

Meaningful relationships are mutual. Balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners, and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention. Marriage and Family Therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice-oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and well-being, She invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships in marriage and family life. In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss: - The importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves—allowing racial, gender, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the world - The importance of mutuality in relationships—but particularly in marriage and family systems. - The ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamics - The difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationship - And she offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with a heart open to justice, vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God. **Episode Highlights** 1. "Systems of power harm everyone—and to live life to the full, we have to see each other fully." 2. "I believe our move toward life to the full requires us to see the world through a third-order lens: not just family systems, but the racial, gender, and societal systems they exist within." 3. "Mutuality means not just expressing our needs but being willing to be changed by the needs of others." 4. "If we're not attuned to the pleasant sensations in our bodies, we miss the invitations to thrive." 5. "Cultural norms are not God-given realities; they are social constructs we are invited to discern and transform." 6. "Knowledge without authentic relationship keeps us from truly seeing the embodied experiences of others." **Helpful Links and Resources** - Check out the programs in Marriage & Family Therapy at Fuller School of Psychology [www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/](https://www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/) - Fuller Asian American Center [aac.fuller.edu/](https://aac.fuller.edu/) - [Socio-Emotional Relationship Therapy (SERT) Overview](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1066480720932700) - [Circle of Care Model Explained](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1066480720932700) - [Positive Psychology and Emotions](https://positivepsychology.com/positive-emotions/) - [Jeanne Tsai's Research on Culture and Emotion](https://web.stanford.edu/~tsai/) - [Asian American Values Scale Reference](https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1997-36346-001) - [Race and Trauma Resources](https://www.apa.org/topics/racism-bias-discrimination/racial-trauma) - [Jeanne Tsai’s research on culture and emotion – Stanford SPARQ](https://sparq.stanford.edu/jeanne-tsai) - [John and Julie Gottman Relationship Research](https://www.gottman.com/) - [Asian American Values Scale – Paniagua & Yamada (Academic resource)](https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/cdp-192219.pdf) **Show Notes** - Jessica ChenFeng shares her "yes and" identity as a second-generation Taiwanese American grounded in both math and creativity. - How earthy aesthetics and connection to nature shape Jessica's professional and personal flourishing. - The integration of Christian faith with clinical work at Fuller Seminary. - "Seeing systems of systems" — why thriving requires understanding how race, gender, and cultural forces shape individuals and families. - Introduction to socio-emotional relationship therapy (SERT) and the value of mutuality in relationships. - Defining mutuality: mutual attunement, mutual influence, mutual vulnerability, and mutual relational responsibility. - "Mutuality asks: Are both people tending to the relationship itself?" - Practical signs of mutual and non-mutual relationships, including emotional attunement and willingness to be influenced. - The importance of humility and relational awareness in building mutual relationships. - The Circle of Care model: cultivating healthy relational dynamics through attunement and responsiveness. - Discerning relational power dynamics in marriages, friendships, and work relationships. - "Thriving is an open heart, even on a stressful day." - How emotional self-control in Asian American cultures is often rooted in relational ethics, not personal repression. - The risk and gift of navigating cross-generational emotional communication in immigrant families. - Differentiated selfhood: balancing authenticity with cultural respect in relational dynamics. - Race, culture, and relational healing: why systems of privilege harm everyone. - "Love your neighbor as yourself" as an ethic for mutual flourishing across racial and cultural difference. - Building trust by leaning into discomfort and courageous conversations. - The need for embodied encounters with real people beyond theories of race and difference. - Mindfulness practice: Jessica leads a guided exercise in attuning to pleasant sensations in the body. - The transformational power of positive emotions and embodiment for creativity and resilience. - The relational impact of systemic racialization and why "colorblindness" fails to honor real lived experience. - Final reflections: How knowing who we are through systemic and relational lenses allows deeper thriving. - Pam King’s Key Takeaways - Each of us in the human family is a beloved child of God—and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth. - The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power, and its destination is mutuality and humility - Thriving means incorporating all of who we are—our heritage and histories especially—into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and love of God. - Our intimate relationships need care and attention as a third reality beyond our selves and our partners. - And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities, and learning to love patiently the multitudes we all contain. **About Jessica ChenFeng** Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is Associate Professor at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and is also Director of the Asian American Well-being Collaboratory at Fuller’s Asian American Center. Prior to her time at Fuller she was a professor at Loma Linda University and California State University, Northridge. Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship integrating socio-contextual lenses of race, gender, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities. In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the well-being of physicians, especially through pandemic-related trauma and burnout. She’s co-authored two books, *Finding Your Voice as a Beginning Marriage and Family* *Therapist*, as well as *Asian American Identities, Relationships, and Cultural Legacies: Reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists*. She received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award.

Romantic relationships are sacred, powerful, and life-giving. But I don’t have to tell you how difficult it is to love and let yourself be loved. Marriage and family therapist Dr. Terry Hargrave has been helping couples in crisis restore broken relationships for decades, teaching them how to get unstuck, improve communication, and move beyond destructive coping mechanisms—to find reciprocity, self-affirming confidence, emotional regulation, and a joyful, lasting love. In a world marked by loneliness, disconnection, and emotional dysregulation, Hargrave offers powerful insights on the human need for identity, safety, and belonging—and how we can heal the wounds that keep us stuck. Drawing on decades of therapeutic experience and deep personal reflection, Hargrave explains how coping mechanisms like blame, shame, control, and escape can damage relationships—and how the peace cycle of nurture, self-valuing, balanced give-and-take, and connection can restore wholeness. He discusses his unique approach to the healing and restorative power of relationships, which lifts us up to our potential, encouraging us toward a nurturing, self-valuing, non-controlling reciprocity, and true connection. In this conversation with Terry Hargrave, we discuss: - How to turn around a relationship in crisis and get off the emotional rollercoaster - How to build security and trust in order to improve or repair a marriage or long-term relationship - Coping mechanisms of blame, shame, control, and escape - Practical steps to learn emotional self-regulation - What to do when only one partner is working on a relationship - The role of the brain and neuroplasticity in relational repair - And the spiritual underpinnings of Terry’s approach to restoration therapy **Episode Highlights** "It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing—until you claim your belovedness for yourself, nothing will change." - "Relationships are a mirror—we discover who we are through how others see us." - "Blame, shame, control, and escape—nothing good comes from these coping mechanisms." - "Understanding doesn’t produce change. Doing produces change." - "When we nurture, self-value, connect, and cooperate, unleashed joy happens." - "Thriving is doing more of your best self, not learning something new." **Helpful Links and Resources** - [Restoration Therapy Training Resources](https://www.restorationtherapytraining.com/) - [*The Mindful Marriage* by Ron Deal and Nan Deal (with Terry and Sharon Hargrave)](https://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Marriage-Helping-Transform-Relationship/dp/0764241134) - [*Five Days to a New Self* by Terry Hargrave](https://www.amazon.com/Five-Days-New-Self-Relationships/dp/162564526X) - [Emotionally Focused Therapy and Sue Johnson's Legacy](https://iceeft.com/about-us/) **Show Notes** - Introduction to Terry Hargrave and the importance of Restoration Therapy today - "We are still the same humans, but with a bigger pipe of problems and fewer emotional connections." - Emotional dysregulation linked to identity and safety threats - Relationships as a mirror to the self and necessary for human thriving - "For there to be a me, there has to be a thou." - Why relationships are difficult: imperfection, wounding, and unmet needs - How family of origin wounds influence coping styles - "Families don't mean to screw each other up, but somehow they manage to." - Introduction of the four major unhealthy coping mechanisms: blame, shame, control, and escape - How overachievement, perfectionism, and withdrawal are survival strategies from early wounding - "Your greatest strength might actually be an old coping habit getting in the way of intimacy." - The relational signs that coping mechanisms are damaging relationships - Healing through self-regulation: speaking truth to yourself with love - "Put your hand on your heart and remind yourself of who you really are." - The difference between co-regulation and self-regulation in emotional healing - Restoration Therapy’s peace cycle: nurture, self-value, balance, connection - "Nothing good comes from blame, shame, control, or escape." - The role of practice and neuroplasticity in forming new relational habits - "Doing, not just understanding, is what rewires the brain." - How thriving relationships move from neediness to adventurous partnership - Intimacy as knowing yourself more fully through connection, not just need satisfaction - Cooperative growth and mutual flourishing as hallmarks of thriving - Application of restoration principles to broader societal healing and reconciliation - "Unleashed joy happens when we choose nurture and connection, even with adversaries." - The critical role of faith in affirming belovedness and ultimate identity - "Everyone else and even God can tell you you're beloved—but you have to claim it for yourself." - Practical advice for knowing when to seek therapy - Where to find Restoration Therapy-trained therapists - Resources for learning more: Mindful Marriage and other Restoration Therapy books - The key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following: - You can change. Your relationship can change. But it takes a daily practice of hard work to create lasting change. - And though you might fail, there is hope that you can begin again. - Our coping mechanisms are not superpowers. They hurt us and the people we love. - Understanding is not enough. Action and behavior has to follow for change to occur. - [Any others?] It takes two to tango, but that doesn’t get you off the hook from doing the work on yourself. - And finally, a thriving relationship creates joy all around it, within a family, in a community, and it shows how personal relationships can change society. **About Terry Hargrave** Dr. Terry Hargrave. Until he retired recently, he was the Evelyn and Frank Freed Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and a nationally recognized therapist known for his pioneering work with intergenerational families. He’s most well known as the founder of Restoration Therapy, which combines advantages of Attachment Theory, Emotional Regulation, and Mindfulness—all in an efficient and organized format that allows both the therapist and client to understand old habits and destructive patterns of behavior and promote change in both individual mental and spiritual health, in order to transform our most intimate relationships. Terry has authored or co-authored over 35 professional articles and fifteen books including *Restoration Therapy: Understanding and Guiding Healing in Marriage and Family Therapy* and *Families and Forgiveness: Healing Wounds in the Intergenerational Family*. In his latest book project, he worked with his wife Sharon, also a licensed marriage and family therapist. It’s called The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself, and it’s a practical manual co-written with Ron and Nan Deal about how they healed their relationship after almost losing it. He’s presented internationally on relationship dynamics, family and marriage restoration, the complexities of intergenerational families, healing and reconciliation, and the process of aging. His work has been featured on A*BC News, 20/20, Good Morning America*, and *CBS This Morning* as well as several national magazines and newspapers. You can learn more about Terry Hargrave and his work—and find books, practical resources, and professional training materials at: restorationtherapytraining.com.

You can’t be moral on your own. That’s a radical idea in this time of moral outrage, but thriving in public life requires a sense of mutual accountability, belonging, and hospitality for each other. Mona Siddiqui is a professor of religion and society, an author, commentator, and public intellectual, and she suggests that the virtues of loyalty, gratitude, hospitality, and hope can lead us through the common struggle of being human together, living *forward* into a thriving life of public faith and renewed moral imagination. As Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh, she is an international beacon of hope that we might find restoration, hospitality, and flourishing in our world of struggle. Working through questions of loyalty, responsibility, belonging, gratitude, robust faith, and what we owe each other, we can find abundant resources for thriving and spiritual health. In this conversation with Mona Siddiqui, we discuss: - What is a moral life? - The connection between faith, spirituality, and living a moral life of responsibility and integrity - The difference between cultivating virtuous character and doing justice - How to thrive in a pluralistic society marked by constant struggle and conflict - The promise of gratitude and hospitality in a life of thriving - And how to pursue a hopeful, forward-looking approach to restoration in the wake of harm, loss, pain, and suffering. **Episode Highlights** - "Our moral life only becomes alive when we are in a relationship—you can't be moral on your own." - "Life is all about searching. Life is all about introspection. Life is all about reflection." - "The good life is hard; it's not about ease, but about living with accountability and responsibility." - "Hospitality isn't just welcoming—it's negotiating belonging, loyalty, and a sense of shared life." - "Gratitude can liberate, but it can also create hierarchies and transactional indebtedness." - "Hope is not naive optimism—without hope, how do you live, build relationships, or carry forward at all?" **Helpful Links and Resources** - Follow Mona on X (Twitter) at [@monasiddiqui7](https://x.com/monasiddiqui7?lang=en) - [*Christians, Muslims, and Jesus](https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300205275/christians-muslims-and-jesus/),* by Mona Siddiqui - [*Human Struggle, Christian and Muslim Perspectives*](https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/religion/philosophy-religion/human-struggle-christian-and-muslim-perspectives?format=AR&isbn=9781108635424), by Mona Siddiqui - [*A Theology of Gratitude: Christian and Muslim Perspectives*](https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/religion/theology/theology-gratitude-christian-and-muslim-perspectives?format=AR&isbn=9781009198394), by Mona Siddiqui - [*My Way: A Muslim Woman’s Journey* by Mona Siddiqui](https://global.oup.com/academic/product/my-way-9780199642693) - [The Moral Maze, BBC Radio 4](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qk11) **Show Notes** - Mona Siddiqui’s personal background in Islamic jurisprudence and public theology - “I got into Islamic jurisprudence because of personal connection and intellectual curiosity.” - Navigating public discourse post-9/11 as a non-white, non-Christian scholar - Importance of pluralism and living within diverse identities - "I need to create a space that appeals to a wider audience—not just about what I think." - Growing up with intellectual freedom in a traditional Islamic household - How faith upbringing seeds lifelong moral introspection - "You are always answering to yourself—you know when you have not lived rightly." - Developing comparative theology through seminars with Christian scholars - Overlapping themes between Islamic and Christian thought on the good life - The significance of accountability over blanket forgiveness - "Belonging is crucial to being a good citizen—you can’t flourish alone." - Exploration of loyalty: loyalty to people vs loyalty to principles - Civic loyalty and critical engagement with the state - “Because I feel loyal to my country, I should also be its critic.” - The role of prayer in cultivating internal moral awareness - Reflection on virtues: gratitude, loyalty, hope - The dark sides of gratitude and loyalty in institutions - Parenting with a focus on integrity, accountability, and faithfulness - “Live so that whatever you say in public, you can say at home—and vice versa.” - Emphasis on public engagement: speaking clearly, making complex ideas accessible - "Radio became a gift—people want complex ideas made simple and meaningful." - Remaining hopeful despite the culture of outrage and cynicism - Young people’s resilience and persistent hopefulness - Hospitality as a fundamental ethic for creating trust and belonging - Struggle as a normative, transformative experience that shapes flourishing - "Thriving is not just freedom—it’s centering, writing, speaking, and deep human connection." - The importance of relationships in thriving and flourishing - “Most of us realize—relationships are the hardest, but the most rewarding.” - Redefining gratitude: avoiding transactional gratitude, cultivating authentic gratefulness - Struggle cultivates introspection, resilience, creativity, and a deeper moral life - Pam King’s Key Takeaways - I can’t be moral on my own. But my decisions are my own. In the end, living with integrity means living with virtue. - Personal and public flourishing are deeply connected to our lives of faith and spirituality; and all of us need to bring the depths of our personal spiritual commitments into public life. - We can offer hope and freedom from fear to each other when we expand our hospitality to all persons. - The practice of gratitude in the face of our vulnerability is easier said than done—but is a strengthening response to uncertainty and suffering. - And finally, human struggle is something we hold in common, and it can be redeemed for creativity, beauty, healing restoration, and a reminder of our dignity as human creatures. **About Mona Siddiqui** Mona Siddiqui is Professor of Islamic and Interreligious Studies, Assistant Principal for Religion and Society, and Dean international for the Middle-East at the University of Edinburgh. Her research areas are primarily in the field of Islamic jurisprudence and ethics and Christian-Muslim relations. She’s the author of many books, including *Human Struggle: Christian and Muslim Perspectives,* *Hospitality in Islam: Welcoming in God’s Name,* and *My Way: A Muslim Woman’s Journey.* A scholar of theology, philosophy, and ethics, she’s conducted international research on Islam and Christianity, gratitude, loyalty and fidelity, hope, reconciliation and inter-faith theological dialogue, and human struggle. Mona is well known internationally as a public intellectual and a speaker on issues around religion, ethics and public life and regularly appears as a media commentator on BBC Radio 4 and BBC Radio Scotland’s Thought for the Day and The Moral Maze. A recipient of numerous awards and recognition, she is a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, she gave the prestigious Gifford Lectures in Natural Theology. She was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences as an International Honorary Member. And Dr. Siddiqui was appointed [Officer of the Order of the British Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_of_the_Order_of_the_British_Empire), which is just steps below the highest Knighting—specifically for her public interfaith efforts. To learn more, I’d highly recommend her books, but you can also follow her on X @monasiddiqui7.

Applying neuroscience and psychology to education and formation, pioneering researcher Dr. Mary Helen Immordino-Yang draws connections between emotions, relationships, brains, stories, meaning, and purpose to shed light on how we learn, grow, and thrive. Her research on the brain shows how we’re woven together in an intricate and glorious network of life, and when we synthesize the neurological, the psychological, the physical, and the social, we’re able to come to a deeper and more impactful understanding of human development and flourishing. From the intricacies of adolescent brain development to the emotional and spiritual scaffolding of a meaningful life, she explains how transcendent thinking, story, and emotional engagement fuel identity formation and long-term flourishing. Drawing from cutting-edge research and humanistic insight, she explores how young people co-create their worlds and how adults can support them in becoming adaptive, wise, and agentic. In this conversation with Mary Helen Immordino-Yang, we discuss: - The value of integrating neuroscience with educational, emotional, and moral development - The strange and glorious case of the adolescent brain—how we mature, learn how to think, feel, and exercise our agency, and strive to become wise - The emotional and relational nature of education and moral development—expressed in nurturing conversation between caring adults and youth - The importance of agency, intentionality, and transcendent thinking in human thriving - Neural plasticity and the capacity to change our brains throughout our lifespan - And, the big picture of thriving, that brings together our mental life, neurobiology, and other physical processes—with relationships, community, and society at large. **Episode Highlights** "Thriving is really about living like you mean it." "We co-construct one another’s lived experiences by the virtue of being there together." "You learn how to have an instinct—it’s not something you’re just born with." "Transcendent thinking literally grows the adolescent brain." "Meaning-making is an abstraction, a transcendent story we construct to bring coherence to our lives." **Show Notes** - Thriving as dynamic, purposeful engagement - Emotional experiences shaping brain development - Co-construction of identity in social relationships - Adolescence as a time of neurodevelopmental remodeling - How transcendent thinking fosters brain growth over time - Adolescents’ drive for deeper moral and ethical narratives - Meaning-making as a tool for personal and societal transformation - Linking personal experience with historical and social narratives - Default mode network and its role in reflection and creativity - From instinct to insight—how the brain learns to feel - The relationship between emotional health and physical well-being - Gut-brain connection, serotonin, and embodied cognition - Transcendence as a cognitive-emotional developmental milestone - Influence of media, anxiety, and political division on adolescent minds - Brain-based evidence of narrative engagement growing identity - Learning to align present feelings with long-term purpose - Brain science dismantling the myth of "subjective = unimportant" - Agency, presence, and intentionality in thriving - Integration of neuroscience with humanistic and applied methods - Role of narrative in therapy, art, education, and spirituality - How adolescents learn to feel, not just what to think - Culturally-rooted belief systems shaping neural responses - The importance of reflection, introspection, and deep conversation - Adolescents’ innate capacity for moral concern and big-picture thinking - Learning through story: case studies in adolescent empathy - Reclaiming agency from external cultural and tech influences - Identity as a lifelong, evolving narrative—not a fixed outcome - Growth as intentional reflection, not cognitive acceleration - Spiritual wellness as iterative construction of meaning and values - Parenting and mentoring for deep reflective growth - Adaptive wisdom: balancing immediacy with long-term vision - Signs of flourishing: self-liking, relationship quality, agency - Importance of diverse experiences and safe, supportive relationships - Adults thriving through neuroplasticity and meaning-making - The lifelong role of story and belief in shaping purpose - Cognitive engagement and values-based direction over passive success - Emotional safety and time as prerequisites for transcendence - Listening, asking why, and welcoming the unknown as virtues of thriving - Pam King’s Key Takeaways - Brain science isn’t better or worse than other perspectives on human life, but it offers incredible insight for how we grow and thrive. - Stories and narratives are the essential threads that hold our lives together; how you think and the story you’re telling yourself matters for your thriving. - Education isn’t just a cognitive process. Our emotions and our bodies and our sense of connection and safety in relationships play a central role in learning. - Spiritual health connects how our transcendent thinking informs our identity and how we live in reciprocity with the world beyond ourselves - Thriving involves an agile agency that helps us live with skill and intentionality—so “live like you mean it.” **About Mary Helen Immordino-Yang** Mary Helen Immordino-Yang is the Fahmy and Donna Attallah Professor of Humanistic Psychology at the University of Southern California. And she’s the founding director of the USC Center for Affective Neuroscience, Development, Learning and Education. Candle is just a lovely image for Mary Helen’s work that brings so much light to the world. She’s also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has received several national awards for her ground breaking research and its implications for education With a focus on educational psychology and the role of emotions in brain development and growth, she’s an expert on the neuroscience of learning and creativity. And her approach offers insight on how our brains shape human culture, morality, and relationships. She works with adolescents and their teachers (particularly in low socio-economic environments) to understand how we build meaning together—looking at abstract, systems-level, and ethical implications of learning complex information, navigating social situations, and narrating our identities. Her research underscores the active role youth play in their own brain and psychosocial development through the narratives they construct, and capacities teachers cultivate to support student belonging and deep learning. To learn more about Mary Helen and her work, check out candle.usc.edu.

"Beholding is a countercultural act—it requires us to stop, to receive, and to fully see.” — Makoto Fujimura "Slow art is an invitation to linger, to notice, and to let the world unfold before us." — Makoto Fujimura You are a beautiful masterpiece. But the practice of living artfully comes slowly, often through brokenness, weakness, or failure. Contemporary artist Makoto Fujimura integrates traditional Japanese styles with abstract expressionism and Christian theology, to explore the beauty that can emerge from the ashes pain and suffering. Both his art and his writing call us to behold the gift of creation, participate in its redemption, accentuating the cracks and fractures in our lives, so that grace might abound. Makoto Fujimura—renowned artist, writer, and theologian—joins Dr. Pam King to explore the deep connections between art, faith, and flourishing. Fujimura shares how his Japanese heritage and study of traditional Nihonga painting have shaped his understanding of creativity as a sacred act. Through themes of brokenness, beauty, and slow art, he challenges us to rethink success, embrace imperfection, and create from a place of love and abundance. Whether you're an artist, a person of faith, or someone seeking meaning in a hurried world, this conversation will invite you to slow down, behold, and embrace the mystery and beauty of life. Mako Fujimura integrates his artmaking, theology, and culture care advocacy into a beautiful expression of thriving and spiritual health. Through his breathtaking expressionist style, distinctively Japanese methods, and his rooted Christian convictions, he’s bringing beauty into being, and inviting us to do the same. In this conversation with Mako Fujimura, we discuss: - What art is, what creativity means, and the human capacity for making beauty - How we can live artfully through imperfection, brokenness, trauma, and suffering - How the practice of a gift economy can lead to mutual thriving - The slow art of pausing, stopping, and beholding that contributes to our mental and spiritual health - And the connection between knowledge and love in a life of creativity and artmaking. **Helpful Links and Resources** - Follow Makoto Fujimura on X [@iamfujimura](https://x.com/iamfujimura) - View Mako’s art at [makotofujimura.com](http://makotofujimura.com) - [Makoto Fujimura’s Writings](https://makotofujimura.com/writings) - [Makoto Fujimura’s Books](https://www.amazon.com/Makoto-Fujimura/e/B004H9IVVQ) - [Nihonga Art and its Traditions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihonga) - [*Refractions: A Journey of Art, Faith, & Culture*](https://www.amazon.com/Refractions-Journey-Faith-Art-Culture/dp/1600063012) - [*Culture Care: Reconnecting with Beauty for Our Common Life*](https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Care-Reconnecting-Beauty-Common/dp/0830845038) - [*Silence and Beauty: Hidden Faith Born of Suffering*](https://www.amazon.com/Silence-Beauty-Makoto-Fujimura/dp/0830844759) - [*Art and Faith: A Theology of Making*](https://www.amazon.com/Art-Faith-Theology-Makoto-Fujimura/dp/0300254148) **Episode Highlights** "Art is fundamentally what human beings create—it is our capacity to make, and in making, we come to know." "Beholding is a countercultural act—it requires us to stop, to receive, and to fully see.” "We worship a wounded, glorified human being—our brokenness is not something to escape but something to offer." "Creativity is not about self-expression alone—it is about giving yourself away in love." "Slow art is an invitation to linger, to notice, and to let the world unfold before us." **Show Notes** - Makoto Fujimura discusses the intersection of art, faith, and flourishing - The importance of beholding in a fast-paced world - How brokenness and imperfection reveal deeper beauty - Nihonga painting and the wisdom of traditional Japanese art - Creativity as an act of love and gift-giving **The Art of Beholding** - Why slowing down is essential for creativity and spiritual growth - The practice of beholding as a way of seeing the world more deeply - How art invites us to be present and pay attention - The connection between contemplation, creativity, and flourishing - "Beholding is a countercultural act—it requires us to stop, to receive, and to fully see." **Creativity, Faith, and Human Flourishing** - How art and faith are intertwined in human thriving - The spiritual discipline of making and creating - Why true knowledge is connected to love and experience - "Art is fundamentally what human beings create—it is our capacity to make, and in making, we come to know." - How community fosters creativity and growth **Brokenness, Beauty, and the Theology of Making** - The Japanese tradition of Kintsugi and embracing imperfection - How Jesus’ wounds and resurrection shape our view of brokenness - The gift economy vs. the transactional economy in art - "We worship a wounded, glorified human being—our brokenness is not something to escape but something to offer." - Learning to see beauty in what is discarded or overlooked **The Practice of Slow Art** - Why slowing down is essential for deep engagement with art - How layers in Nihonga painting reveal new depths over time - "Slow art is an invitation to linger, to notice, and to let the world unfold before us." - How slowing down fosters healing and deeper connection - The role of patience and attentiveness in both art and life **Living a Creative and Generous Life** - How to cultivate creativity in daily life, even outside traditional arts - The role of community in sustaining creative work - Why generosity and self-giving are essential to true creativity - "Creativity is not about self-expression alone—it is about giving yourself away in love." - Practical steps for integrating creativity into everyday living **Pam King’s Key Takeaways** - Whether you think of yourself as artist, we’re all creative. Mako’s message is intentionally not just for artists, but is an invitation for all of us to live artfully—no matter what we do for a living. - Because creativity comes in so many different ways, from leadership, to scientific research, to parenting, to cooking, we all have the daily creative capacity to add beauty to the world. - And to that end, remember your first love, the playfulness and creativity of giving beauty to the world - A gift economy of beauty offers a radical resistance to consumerism, competition, and comparison. - Art and the making of beauty is a part of thriving. And the invitation to live artfully starts with a daily practice of slowing down: pause, stop, and behold. Smell the roses. Consider the lilies. - And finally, there’s a path to beauty through brokenness. Grace comes to us through failure. And strength is made perfect in weakness. - And finally, though the wind may be blowing through our lives, may we all learn to behold *the moonlight leaking between the roof planks.* **About Makoto Fujimura** Contemporary artist Makoto Fujimura is a painter, an author, a speaker, and an imaginative maker with a gift for theological integration. Mako’s message is intentionally not just for artists, because creativity comes in so many different ways, from leadership, to scientific research, to parenting, to cooking, we all have the daily creative capacity to add beauty to the world. Working out of his Princeton, New Jersey studio, his work has been described by David Brooks as “a small rebellion against the quickening of time.” Art critic Robert Kushner placed Mako’s art at the forefront of a contemporary movement about “hope, healing, redemption, and refuge, while maintaining visual sophistication and intellectual integrity.” A blend of fine art and abstract expressionism, Mako describes his work as “slow art,” being influenced directly by the distinctively Japanese Nihonga style, which is patient and methodical, using slow drying pigments from ground minerals. Mako’s art has been featured in galleries and museums around the world, as well as notable collections in The Museum of Contemporary Art in Tokyo, The Huntington Library in California, and the Tikotin Museum in Israel. From 2012 to 2017, he served as vision director of the Brehm Center here at Fuller Theological Seminary. Mako is the author of several books, including *Refractions: A Journey of Art, Faith, & Culture*, *Culture Care: Reconnecting with Beauty for Our Common Life*, and *Silence and Beauty: Hidden Faith Born of Suffering*. His most recent is entitled *Art and Faith: A Theology of Making*. And his next book will be available soon—titled, *Art Is: A Journey into the Light.* And with his wife Haejin, he’s producing a new work on *Beauty and Justice*. Follow him on X [@iamfujimura](https://x.com/iamfujimura), and view his beautiful work at [makotofujimura.com](http://makotofujimura.com).

"Spirituality is like nuclear fission—it has the power to illuminate and energize but also to destroy when mishandled." — Dan Koch "Thriving isn't about a perfect life; it's about alignment between our deepest values and our lived reality." — Dan Koch On our path to spiritual health, we need to keep our eyes open to the ways religion and spirituality have been exploited to coerce, control, and create chaos. Focusing on the intersection of religion and psychology, licensed therapist, researcher, and podcaster Dan Koch is creating a public conversation about spiritual harm and abuse, helping victims learn how to deal with spiritual trauma, and offering insight and guidance toward healthy religious and spiritual experiences. From his own personal journey of religious trauma to his extensive research on spiritual abuse, Dan shares insights on how faith communities can both wound and restore. The conversation covers the psychological impact of religious trauma, the complexities of self-diagnosis, and practical strategies for self-knowledge and healing for anyone who has wrestled with faith, struggled with past church experiences, or have lost their religion. In this conversation with Dan Koch, we discuss: - The psychological study of spiritual abuse and harm, including conceptual definitions and the many factors that come along with them. - The symptoms and most recognizable patterns that point to spiritual abuse - The impact of abuse and trauma on psychological and spiritual health - How to reappraise and challenge harmful core beliefs - And how to find healing, joy, and transcendence as we deal with past trauma. **Spirituality: Pro-Social Benefits, with a Shadow Side of Harm, Exploitation, and Violence** Through *With & For*, as well as the broader work of The Thrive Center, we regularly explore the expansive benefits and positives that emerge from our inherent spirituality as human beings, and how that relates to our individual and collective thriving. Religion and spirituality can be an immense force for good, offering countless pro-social benefits to the world, helping us our innate spiritual capacities is an essential factor in what it means to thrive. But we have to acknowledge the harm and vice and corruption—the *violence—* that has been perpetrated through religious and spiritual contexts. Spiritual abuse is a serious matter and there’s no way we can cultivate a full understanding or integrated experience of healthy spirituality without coming to terms with its prevalence and effects. Dan Koch’s attention to spiritual harm and abuse is about clearing the way toward a healthier spirituality grounded in care and healing. By exposing and exploring past traumas in the context of heathy and respectful relationships, we can grow into a more joyful faith and transcendent spiritual life. **About Dan Koch** Dan Koch is a licensed therapist supporting patients working through the trauma of spiritual abuse; and his work and insight in this domain emerges from his empirical research. He’s also host of the *You Have Permission* podcast. With a background in philosophy and theology, he explores questions of faith, doubt, and spiritual well-being. His research focuses on the psychological effects of religious trauma and how individuals can heal from spiritual abuse. Find more of his work at [dankochwords.com](https://www.dankochwords.com/). You can find his podcast, You Have Permission wherever you listen to podcasts and find exclusive episodes at patreon.com/dankoch. **Helpful Links and Resources** - [Dan Koch’s Website](https://www.dankochwords.com/) - [Join Dan Koch’s Patreon](https://www.patreon.com/dankoch) - [You Have Permission Podcast](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-have-permission/id1448000113) - [Dan Koch’s Research on Spiritual Abuse](https://www.dankochwords.com/) - The Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale [Clinical Screener](https://www.dankochwords.com/uploads/1/1/7/6/117689856/spiritual_harm___abuse_scale_-_screener_v1.3.pdf) - [Development of the Spiritual Harm and Abuse Scale](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jssr.12792) (Article, May 2022) **Quotable** "I would just distinguish between self-knowledge and self-diagnosis—one leads to growth, the other can lead to unnecessary fear." "Avoidance is both a symptom of trauma and a cause of it—it keeps the rest of the symptoms around." "Spirituality is like nuclear fission—it has the power to illuminate and energize but also to destroy when mishandled." "You can't worship a villain—when spiritual abuse distorts your image of God, it becomes almost impossible to stay in faith." "Thriving isn't about a perfect life; it's about alignment between our deepest values and our lived reality." **Show Notes** - Dan Koch on spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and healing - How beliefs about God shape emotional well-being - Practical self-knowledge exercises to promote healing - The impact of fear-based religious teachings on mental health - Strategies for deconstructing harmful religious experiences **Understanding Spiritual Abuse and Religious Trauma** - Definition and key elements of spiritual abuse - Difference between spiritual harm and abuse - The role of power, control, and coercion in religious settings - How religious trauma manifests in daily life - Connection between religious trauma and PTSD **The Psychological and Emotional Impact of Religious Trauma** - The interplay between faith, fear, and mental health - The long-term effects of toxic religious teachings - How avoidance perpetuates trauma symptoms - Self-diagnosis vs. self-awareness in spiritual healing - The importance of challenging harmful core beliefs **Practical Strategies for Self-Knowledge and Healing** - Dan Koch's guided self-knowledge exercise - How breath work can regulate anxiety from spiritual trauma - Recognizing and reframing harmful core beliefs - The power of contemplative practices in spiritual healing - Using evidence-based approaches to reconstruct faith **How Churches and Communities Can Foster Spiritual Health** - How leadership can avoid coercive control - Creating spaces for questioning and spiritual growth - The importance of transparency in religious institutions - Encouraging self-agency in spiritual communities - Redefining authority and spiritual guidance in a healthy way **Pam King’s Key Takeaways** - Spirituality is like nuclear fission: its incredible power can be harnessed for abundant good that is essential to thriving, but when it is exploited or used irresponsibly, the fallout is catastrophic for human well-being. - Thriving is an integrative process that can be better understood and better lived when we draw from psychological, philosophical, and theological sources. - Sometimes our core beliefs are the source of spiritual harm and trauma, and these can be reframed, reappraised, and challenged—aligning us with self-respect, truth, and love.

We need a recovery of the sacred in our secular world. Because the mental, emotional, and psychological struggles haunting society right now can’t be solved without addressing meaning, purpose, and the longing for connection to something beyond ourselves. In other words, spiritual health is an essential part of mental health. An attorney, religious scholar, and university chaplain, Dr. Varun Soni is Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California, and is leading us back to our true north, through spacious and life-giving spiritual conversations and sacred practices that realign us to our values and identity. In this conversation with Varun Soni, we discuss: - Finding the sacred in our secular culture. - Religious pluralism and what it means to build trust that reaches across religious lines of difference. - The transformative power of finding your “truth north”—your North Star—to orient our journeys of faith and spirituality. - Varun shares six pillars of flourishing; how to align our actions with our values; and the benefit of listening to the cultural narratives and stories we tell. - He reflects on the missing elements of spirituality in our understanding of mental health today, evidenced in his work with teens and emerging adults. - He offers us a Hindu meditative practice to provide inner clarity, stability, and calm. - And he comments on compassion and a cultivation sacred spiritual practices to counteract the loneliness, anguish, and suffering in our world. **Show Notes** - Dr. Pam King welcomes Varun Soni, Dean of Religious and Spiritual Life at USC - Journey from Hindu attorney to first Hindu Dean of Religious and Spiritual Life in the U.S. - “What does it mean to be Indian? What does it mean to be Hindu? What does it mean to be American? What is this Indian American experience?” - 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act - Inspired by grandfather’s connection to Mahatma Gandhi - “ What it meant to be Hindu was to be like Gandhi. What it meant to be Indian was to be like Gandhi. What it meant to live a meaningful life was to live like Gandhi.” - “ I continued to study religion as a way of understanding myself.” - Sitting with the Dalai Lama on Mahatma Gandhi’s birthday - Mentorship from the Dalai Lama - Deepak Chopra’s influence - “Interfaith trust building” - University Chaplaincy - What is thriving to you? - "Thriving is the alignment of purpose and practice—it’s not about arriving, but about moving in the right direction." - “What is my north star, and how do I get there?” - Spiritual well-being about asking the right questions, not having all the answers - Religion once provided meaning, rituals, and community—now young people seek new structures - "What is sacred to you? If you can’t answer that, you’re drifting without a compass." - The urgency of time when turning 50 years old - “I’m not trying to prove anything to anyone anymore.” - “Put the process before the answer.” - 6 pillars of thriving and well-being: diet, sleep, exercise, contemplative practice, emotional intelligence, connection to nature - Basic physical pillars of thriving: Diet, Sleep, Exercise - Spiritual pillars of thriving: Contemplation, Emotional Intelligence, and Communing with Nature - Finding what is sacred—faith, relationships, personal values - 51% of USC students non-religious, 80% spiritual - Record levels of loneliness, imposter syndrome, comparison culture - “Not just a mental health crisis, but a spiritual health crisis.” - Loss of intergenerational religious experiences—key protective factor against depression - "We took away religion and replaced it with social media, then wondered why anxiety skyrocketed." - Social media fuels disconnection rather than community - "We weren’t built for this much bad news. Our brains weren’t designed to process global suffering 24/7." - “There’s no right way to do contemplative practice.” - Find moments built into your day - Exercise: *So Hum* breath meditation: Inhale “So,” exhale “Hum” - Using meditation as a spiritual technology or tool - "You are not your thoughts—you are the awareness behind them." - Identity shaped by personal narrative—"If you don’t like your story, rewrite it." - Telling the story of who you will become - "Every individual is the hero of their own journey, whether they realize it or not." - Cultural mythology, from sacred texts to Marvel movies, reflects search for meaning - Spirituality helps build redemptive life narratives - “There power in being part of something bigger.” - *The Spiritual Child* by Lisa Miller—research on spirituality and mental health - "It’s hard to hate the people you love—universities are one of the last places where people can learn to love each other across differences." - Technology and mediated relationships - What is sacred to you? - "Gen Z’s greatest superpower is empathy, but they’ve never been lonelier." - Building protective factors for young people - Gratitude rituals shift focus from anxiety to appreciation - Care, justice, and connection - Mental Health Crisis - Mental Health and Spiritual Health - Awe-inspiring moments—nature, music, relationships—essential to well-being - "Awe, wonder, and gratitude aren’t luxuries—they’re survival tools." - “You can’t doom-scroll your way to joy. Presence and connection matter.” - Religious institutions declining, but human need for transcendence remains - Creating new rituals and meaning-making for a secular generation - "Spiritual health is just as important as mental health—ignore it, and you miss a key part of the equation." - What is your North Star? What gets you up in the morning? - How do your daily practices align purpose and action? - How do the stories you tell shape your identity and thriving? - Try So Hum meditation as a daily mindfulness practice - Engage in one act of gratitude—write a note, express appreciation, savor a moment - It’s all too easy to fragment our lives into secular and sacred, but thriving and spiritual health require wholeness and integration of every aspect of ourselves, including our faith and spirituality. - Future generations of leaders need our guidance and support in their connection to community and their search for meaning, purpose, and hope. - Keep your seat-belt firmly fastened, your seat-back upright, tray table stowed, and secure your own spiritual oxygen mask before assisting others. - We can counteract the outrage, anxiety, and information overload with simple, daily practices that bring stability and clarity. - We thrive when we align our actions and our values, our behavior with our beliefs, and our practices with our purpose. **About Varun Soni** Varun Soni is the Dean of Religious Life at the University of Southern California. He received his B.A. degree in Religion from Tufts University, where he also earned an Asian Studies minor and completed the Program in Peace and Justice Studies. He subsequently received his M.T.S. degree from Harvard Divinity School and his M.A. degree through the Department of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He went on to receive his J.D. degree from University of California, Los Angeles School of Law, where he also completed the Critical Race Studies Program and served as an editor for the *Journal of Islamic and Near Eastern Law*. He earned his Ph.D. through the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Cape Town, where his doctoral research focused on religion and popular culture. As an undergraduate student, Dean Soni spent a semester living in a Buddhist monastery in Bodh Gaya, India through Antioch University’s Buddhist Studies Program. As a graduate student, he spent months doing field research in South Asia through UCSB’s Center for Sikh and Punjab Studies. Dean Soni is currently a University Fellow at USC Annenberg’s Center on Public Diplomacy and an Adjunct Professor at the USC School of Religion. He is the author of *Natural Mystics: The Prophetic Lives of Bob Marley and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan* (Figueroa Press, 2014) and his writings have appeared in the *Washington Post*, *Huffington Post*, *Crosscurrents*, J*ewish Journal*, and *Harvard Divinity Bulletin*. He produced the critically acclaimed graphic novel *Tina’s Mouth: An Existential Comic Diary* by Keshni Kashyap, which is currently being adapted as a feature length film. He also produced and hosted his own radio show on KPFK-Pacifica that showcased music from South Asia and its diaspora. In 2009, he was one of the organizers of the historic Concert for Pakistan, a benefit concert at the United Nations General Assembly Hall featuring Salman Ahmad, Sting, Outlandish, Jeff Skoll, Deepak Chopra, and Melissa Etheridge. Dean Soni is a member of the State Bar of California, the American Academy of Religion, and the Association for College and University Religious Affairs. He is on the advisory board for the Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement, Journal for Interreligious Dialogue, Hindu American Seva Charities, Future45, and the Parliament of the World’s Religion. Prior to joining USC, Dean Soni spent four years teaching in the Law and Society Program at UCSB. Born in India and raised in Southern California, he has family on five continents and they collectively represent every major religious tradition in the world.

In our world of urgency, certitudes, and immediate access to a flood of information, could it be that a humble curiosity, inspired awe, and delightful wonder might give us the strength to heal and thrive? Using an expansive emotional vocabulary matched with wit and care, TV host, podcaster, and author Kelly Corrigan is inviting the world to relational vulnerability, compassionate curiosity, and stalwart bravery to face our biggest problems through listening and loving wonder. In this conversation with Kelly Corrigan, we discuss: - Her approach to having conversations that feel transformative—the kind that unlock and open us up - How wonder grounds her spirituality and personal vocation - The profound lessons she learned from her mother and father, and how each showed up for her when she was at her lowest - How to learn wisdom and leadership through coaching and mentoring - How to build the emotional container of home for a family - What it means to be brave in our world today - And how to communicate love through the simple act of listening through three simple invitations: “Tell me more!, What else?, and Go on.” About Kelly Corrigan Kelly Corrigan is a journalist of wonder. Through hundreds and hundreds of conversations with some of the world’s most interesting people, she approaches both timeless questions and contemporary problems … through focused and generous listening, an attitude of awe, and a joyful expectation to be surprised and delighted, even in life’s most challenging and painful circumstances. She’s the author of four New York Times bestselling memoirs: *Tell Me More, The Middle Place, Glitter and Glue, and Lift.* Her most recent offering is a children’s book, Hello World, which celebrates the people in our lives and explores the meaningful connections that come from asking each other questions. Her podcast, *Kelly Corrigan Wonders*, is a library of conversational wisdom ranging from current events, to arts and entertainment, to psychology and philosophy, and an approach to spirituality and transcendence through the gift of everyday, ordinary life. A master of conversational hospitality, downright funny storytelling, and journalistic listening, she’s also the PBS television host of *Tell Me More*, and recently spoke on Bravery at the 40th annual TED Conference. You can find her podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders wherever you listen to podcasts and her full library of resources at kellycorrigan.com. Books and Media by Kelly Corrigan - Listen to [Kelly Corrigan Wonders](https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/kelly-corrigan-wonders/id1532951390) - Visit [KellyCorrigan.com](http://KellyCorrigan.comhttps://www.kellycorrigan.com/) - Watch [Tell Me More with Kelly Corrigan](https://www.kellycorrigan.com/media) (PBS) - Read Kelly’s books, such as [Tell Me More, The Middle Place, Glitter and Glue, Hello World!, and Lift](https://www.kellycorrigan.com/books). Show Notes - Kelly Corrigan’s storytelling and journalism - Kelly’s interviews with famous figures like Bono, Bryan Stevenson, David Byrne, and Melinda Gates. - Celebrities are just people. - “What happens almost instantly… is that they become people.” - “You are a never-to-be-repeated miracle.” - Core questions to know a person:  ”Who raised  you, and where, and what happened  that you still remember vividly.” - Finding the extraordinary in the ordinary - ”All the quotidian facts of their life that make us equals in some  weird way, it puts you at ease.” - “There's this story about how being an adult is holding in one pocket that you are ashes to ashes, dust to dust, one of billions And holding in the other pocket that you are a never to be repeated miracle. And that adulthood is knowing when to pull out which piece of paper.” - Childhood and parental influence reveal deep insights into a person’s adult self. - Vivid childhood memories help shape storytelling and personal understanding. - “A strong, detailed memory of an experience is an indicator that there’s a lot there for you.” - Famous people also deal with everyday concerns, which makes them relatable. - “They’re just looking for a sandwich at lunchtime.” - Perspective shifts with age, realizing that many things once thought important aren’t. - “There’s 8 billion people here. It doesn’t matter what I say and do.” - Embracing the paradox of being both insignificant and uniquely valuable. - “Being an adult is holding in one pocket that you are ashes to ashes, dust to dust… and in the other pocket that you are a never-to-be-repeated miracle.” - Kelly’s father, George Corrigan, was an enthusiastic listener and deeply engaging with others. - “The thing you need to know about me is I’m George Corrigan’s daughter.” - Her father’s ability to find something lovable in everyone influenced her deeply. - “He wasn’t looking for people just like him… he could become engaged in something he knew nothing about.” - Kelly Corrigan's TED Talk, "To Love Is to Be Brave" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ShZKR5Uo2I - Her mother, Mary Corrigan, was structured, disciplined, and devoted to family. “She went to church every single day.” - Passed away six weeks before the interview, leaving a strong legacy. - ”I felt like I  had been loved and people cared about me. Not excessively, not obsessively, but you know, like I was safe in the world.” - Getting the love you need - Recognizing bravery in everyday family life and personal struggles. - Nick Hornby’s experience of receiving a book—that filled him with a sense of pride and recognition - Coaching JV Lacrosse in Piedmont, CA—and seeing the impact of “seeing people” and offering loving recognition—the power of making young girls feel seen - Parents handling difficult conversations with children require immense courage. - “There’s so much happening inside every house that’s deeply brave and very complex.” - Kelly Corrigan’s spiritual upbringing—raised Catholic and participated in church traditions but felt distanced from the institution because of patriarchy and abuse scandals - “The dominant feeling I had in Catholicism was that there’s this superstructure of men who tell you if you’re good or bad.” - Disillusionment with the Catholic Church following abuse scandals. - “My religion is wonder.” - Finds spiritual connection through nature, puzzles, painting, and observing small details. - “I mean, I can really go crazy on a leaf.” - Painting as a practice of attention: “ it slows you way down and you have to focus on something so minute.” - How to deal with emotional flooding through physical practices like walking - Kelly Corrigan on Thriving—deeply connected to being in service to others. - “I probably thrive best when I’m in service to something.” - “And then they say, ‘Okay, Kelly, we're ready. Action.’ And then it's just me and this other person and the fullness of our attention to one another is thrilling by  virtue of the fact that it's so damn rare. And sometimes when I'm finished, I'm like, there's almost like a romance to it. You know, like where I'm like, I, I love you. I love the experience that we just had.” - Clarity and purpose often come in caregiving moments, like her parents’ passing. - “90 minutes of pure connection.” - Pam King’s experience of her daughter’s hospitalization after a rare infection - Kelly describes her experience of cancer in her thirties. - Be mindful of what you consume—both media and information. - “Junk in, junk out.” - Engage in hobbies that disconnect from screens, such as painting and cooking. - “Read poetry. Read it out loud.” - You should be really careful what you let in your head. - “If you're small in the frame, you're just going to move more freely. And if you're big in the frame, if you're the most important thing in your whole life, God help you.” - Politics and voting or acting against your own self-interests - [Kelly Corrigan’s conversation with April Lawson on abortion](https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/going-deep-on-reproductive-rights-with-april-lawson/id1532951390?i=1000645979365) - Redefining bravery - “And the reward is a full human experience.” - The meaning of family - The experience of selling her childhood home after 55 years and how that raised questions about the meaning of family and connection—“We bought it on July 7, 1969, and it sold on July 7, 2024.” - “Will it hold? … Is it durable? … A place of comfort?” - “I think most parents would say the biggest project they've ever undertaken was to try to build a family.” - “Is this thing that was the most important thing I ever built durable?” - The emotional container of home - An expansive emotional vocabulary - “More questions, fewer statements.” - Encouraging curiosity in her children as a lifelong tool - “Ask questions. Tell  me more. What else? Go on.” - “Just ask questions. Nobody’s listening. So just be the person who listens. It’s like the lowest bar.” - Enabling someone to get over themselves - Creating space for another person’s life, story, and emotions to unfold - “So embrace intellectual humility and just assume that you do not have any relevant information to give them and that your only work is to keep saying, tell me more, what else go  on? And  they'll talk their way into a solution.” - “And so it's a little bit of like physiological adjustment. And then it's also this intellectual pause. And it's also a big emotional pause. So like, do your dishes slowly with a scent that you like. … It’s like a tiny reset.” - Live takeaways from Pam and Kelly - “Wonder is cheap and accessible and effective. It’s like, free!” - Embody wonder into the power of listening. - “Part of the reason why Christy Turlington is so beautiful is her posture. So sit up straight.” - “500 questions before you marry someone and commit your life to them is not a bad idea.” - “Junk in, junk out. Like be careful what you put in your head. Your head is a sacred space. Do not put junk in there. Don't listen to junk. Don't watch junk. Don't read junk. Like, it's sacred. Think of it as like a cathedral. You wouldn't take like a shitty meatball sub and eat it in the backseat of a cathedral. You know what I mean?” - “ The fullness of life involves this full cup that is full of joys and sorrows.” - “ It only takes one person. It only takes one person to correct for a lot of absence. Doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. It doesn't mean it's going to wipe away every ounce of pain, but one person investing can compensate for a lot that's been missing.” - Deep interviews as rare opportunities for pure connection - “It’s weirdly unusual to have a full hour of pure connection.” - Facing fear and hardship as part of the full human experience - “A full human experience includes all the emotions at full maximum dosage.” - Finding purpose in slowing down and being intentional with habits - “Evaluate your diet—not just food, but content, relationships, and daily habits.”

Emotional health is deeply intertwined in an ongoing journey with spiritual health. This involves opening to our pain, grieving our trauma, and patiently cultivating a resilience that stabilizes and secures our relationships and our sense of self. With compassion, pastoral presence, and emotional attunement, psychologist Dr. David Wang is using psychological and theological tools to help us understand and adapt to emotional realities, explore the wounds of our past, and find healing and strength through acceptance and grief. In this conversation with David Wang, we discuss: - The difference between human development and spiritual formation and how to understand maturity - The centrality of relationships in human life and growth, and how that’s grounded in divine relationality and our communion with God - How to become friends with ourselves, offering self-compassion and being moved by our own suffering - The impact of childhood trauma on adult emotional, psychological, and spiritual health - And finally, how a practice of grief can help us understand and work through traumatic experiences and move toward healing. Show Notes - Christian theology and formation - A philosophical approach to theologically informed strategies for transformation and growth - How the relational aspects of God ground an approach to therapy and spiritual formation - What are the markers of maturity? - Relatedness and connection to others facilitates the process of human growth and development - Emotional building blocks and relational capacities for maturity - Dave Wang on spiritual health and thriving - Theological and psychological frameworks of thriving - Holding the beautiful beside the broken - Becoming friends with ourselves - Show compassion, be moved by our own suffering, and accept limitations as we strive toward the hard work we’re all called to. - Two paradoxical needs to achieve spiritual maturity and health - We are made for relationships, but we also need independence - Balance - Spiritual and emotional maturity - Formation through practice, education, and healthy development - Can virtue be taught? - Can maturity be educated? - Can we *learn* to thrive and be spiritually healthy? - In his book, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, Dr. Gabor Maté writes that “The attempt to escape from pain is what creates more pain.” - When our brains and our bodies go into survival mode - Avoidance as a coping mechanism or strategy - Childhood trauma in childhood - “When the psychic pain is so unbearable, the felt threat so intimidating, we mentally and emotionally try to escape.” - Childhood trauma can reemerge in adult behaviors, relationships, habits, language, even physical illness or conditions. - Do I have trauma that I haven’t dealt with? - The symptoms or signs of trauma - How to approach the process of seeking help and healing. - Concrete practices that can help and heal traumatic experience - Learning to grieve - Christian spiritual practices of prayer - The emotional practice of grief and acceptance - Dr. Pam King’s Key Takeaways - Human beings need both relationships and independence. And learning how to balance and integrate them is a marker of our maturity. - Though we may try to escape from pain, to deal with trauma we need to practice acceptance and grief. It’s a difficult and complex relational process that brings us closer to healing and wholeness. - We can befriend ourselves in our pain through a practice of self-compassion. - In this life, we have to hold beauty beside brokenness. Cultivating the capacity to do so is the hard work of growth into spiritual and emotional maturity, and the joyful journey of thriving. About David Wang Dr. David Wang is a licensed psychologist and Associate Professor of Psychology at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he’s also the Cliff and Joyce Penner Chair for the Formation of Emotionally Healthy Leaders and scholar in residence at Fuller’s Center for Spiritual Formation. He speaks and trains leaders globally on trauma informed care. And he conducts research and teaches courses in Trauma Therapy, Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Multicultural Psychology, and the Integration of Psychology and the Christian faith. He is also Pastor of Spiritual Formation at One Life City Church in Fullerton, California.

“Meaning making is so fundamental to who we are as humans, and when that’s ruptured, it’s devastating.” (Dr. Pam King, from this episode) “Spiritual fortitude is different from resilience … it helps us to realize that we still learn to live in the midst of suffering. … It helps us metabolize our suffering.” (Dr. Jamie Aten, from this episode) One of the hopeful things in the aftermath of the Los Angeles fires is how I have seen people within L.A. show up with and for each other. And I'm especially grateful for this audience because I know you are all people who care to show up with people, and for people. Thank you for being light in these hard times. And I was talking with Evan Rosa. The producer and host of For the Life of the World (Yale Center for Faith & Culture) about the turbulent times that we are experiencing in Los Angeles. And I was also speaking about experts who deal with trauma, disaster, psychological first aid, spiritual first aid, and also reflecting on my own experiences of watching the community around me evaporate. Evan had the great idea to invite me and Dr. Jamie Aten, the head of Wheaton's Humanitarian Disaster Institute, for an interview. And I think you'll resonate with a lot of the themes of this episode, even if you aren't living in the midst of a disaster. We all have challenges, and these are great moments to dig deep and live connected with each other and for each other in purposeful ways. So what follows is sharing our interview with Evan Rosa. Thanks for listening. Show Notes (From the episode page of For the Life of the World) Disaster preparedness is sort of an oxymoron. Disaster is the kind of indiscriminate calamity that only ever finds us ill-equipped to manage. And if you are truly prepared, you’ve probably averted disaster. There’s a big difference between the impact of disaster on physical, material life—and its outsized impact on mental, emotional, and spiritual life. Personal disasters like a terminal illness, natural disasters like the recent fires that razed southern Californian communities, the impact of endless, senseless wars … these all cause a pain and physical damage that can be mitigated or rebuilt. But the worst of these cases threaten to destroy the very meaning of our lives. No wonder disaster takes such a psychological and spiritual toll. There’s an urgent need to find or even make meaning from it. To somehow explain it, justify why God would allow it, and tell a grand story that makes sense from the senseless. These are difficult questions, and my guests today both have personal experience with disaster. Dr. Pam King is the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology, and the Executive Director the Thrive Center. She’s an ordained Presbyterian minister, and she hosts a podcast on psychology and spirituality called [**With & For**](https://thethrivecenter.org/podcast/). Dr. Jamie Aten is a disaster psychologist and disaster ministry expert, helping others navigate mass, humanitarian, and personal disasters with scientific and spiritual insights. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute Wheaton College, where he holds the Blanchard Chair of Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership. He is author of [**A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience**](https://www.jamieaten.com/walkingdisaster). In this conversation, Pam King and Jamie Aten join Evan Rosa to discuss: - Each of their personal encounters with disasters—both fire and cancer - The psychological study of disaster - The personal impact of disaster on mental, emotional, and spiritual health - The difference between resilience and fortitude - And the theological and practical considerations for how to live through disastrous events. About Pam King Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. She hosts the [**With & For podcast**](https://thethrivecenter.org/podcast/), and you can follow her [**@drpamking**](https://twitter.com/drpamking). About Jamie Aten Jamie D. Aten is a disaster psychologist and disaster ministry expert. He helps others navigate mass, humanitarian, and personal disasters with scientific and spiritual insights. He is the Founder and Executive Director of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute and Disaster Ministry Conference and holds the Blanchard Chair of Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership at Wheaton College. And he’s the author of [**A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience**](https://www.jamieaten.com/walkingdisaster). Show Notes - Humanitarian Disaster Institute https://www.wheaton.edu/academics/academic-centers/humanitarian-disaster-institute/) - Spiritual First Aid https://www.spiritualfirstaid.org/ - Jamie Aten’s A Walking Disaster: What Surviving Katrina and Cancer Taught Me about Faith and Resilience https://www.jamieaten.com/walkingdisaster - The Thrive Center https://thethrivecenter.org/ at Fuller Seminary - Pam King’s personal experience fighting fires in the Eaton Fire in January 2025 - 5,000 homes destroyed - 55 schools and houses of worship are gone - “Neighborhoods are annihilated …” - Jamie Aten offers an overview of the impact of disasters on humanity, and the human response - 1985: 400% increase in natural disasters globally - Japan 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami - Haiti 2010 earthquake - Physical, emotional, spiritual - Infrastructural impacts that set up disasters - USAID support - Jamie Aten’s experience during Hurricane Katrina - Personal disasters - Jamie Aten’s experience with colon cancer - “Evacuation Impossible” - Impact of disaster on personal sense of thriving - Thriving vs surviving - Understanding trauma - Collective traumatic events - The historically Black multigenerational community in Altadena - What constitutes thriving? - Thriving as adaptive growth: with and for others - Self-care is not just me-care, but we-care. - Trauma brain and the cognitive impacts of disaster - The psychological study of disaster: grapefruit vs beachball - A rupture of meaning making - Place and spirituality and the impact of disaster on sense of place - Bethlehem pastor Munther Isaac’s “Christ in the Rubble” - Finding meaning in both the restructuring or rebuilding, but also in the rubble itself - Hope embodied in service - Everything is a cognitive load - Miroslav Volf and Ryan McAnnally-Linz’s *The Home of God: A Brief Story of Everything* - Psychological and trauma-informed care - ”One of the things that we found was that when people received positive spiritual support, that they reported lower levels of trauma, lower levels of depression and lower levels of anxiety.” - BLESS CPR - BLESS: Biological, Livelihood, Emotional, Social, Spiritual - “What’s the most pressing need?” - Spiritual health - Spirituality and our ultimate sources of meaning - Transcendence - Lament as a practice for dealing with disaster - Prayer or sacred readings - Meaning making and suffering: Elizabeth Hall (Biola University) and Crystal Park (University of Connecticut) - Baton Rouge Flood 2016 - Navigating suffering - Religion in disaster mental health - Faith as a predictor for resilience - Meaning making outside of religion - Mr. Rogers: “Look for the helpers” - Best disaster preparedness: “Get to know your neighbor.” - “Proximity alone is not what it takes to become a neighbor.” - Neighbors helping neighbors - Managing burnout in helpers - “Spiritual self-aid” instead of “self-care” - Self-care is like surfing - “God holding the fragmented pieces of me” - “God’s love is with me.” - Spiritual fortitude in personal and natural disasters Production Notes - This podcast featured Jamie Aten and Pam King - Edited and Produced by Evan Rosa - Hosted by Evan Rosa - Production Assistance by Macie Bridge, Alexa Rollow, Zoë Halaban, Kacie Barrett & Emily Brookfield - A Production of the Yale Center for Faith & Culture at Yale Divinity School https://faith.yale.edu/about - Support For the Life of the World podcast by giving to the Yale Center for Faith & Culture: https://faith.yale.edu/give

Our brains hold our relational history—all the joys, all the ruptures, all the repairs. And even in the most difficult childhood or parenting circumstances, the science of relationships and connection can give us hope for whole-brain and whole-life transformation. Therapist, bestselling author, and mom—Dr. Tina Payne Bryson is seeking a connection revolution that brings neurobiology and practical relational wisdom to bear on both how we were parented, how we parent, and how we relate throughout our lifespan. In this conversation with Tina Bryson, we discuss: - The science of childhood relational development and growth into strong, adaptive adults - The brain as our most social organ—capable of holding a lifetime of relational and emotional history - How to emotionally co-regulate with another person to achieve a calm, peaceful, and vibrant relationship - Neuroplasticity and our ability to change with intention toward our deepest held values - And we explore how the science of connection, attachment, and interpersonal neurobiology sheds light on how we were parented, and impacts how we might parent ourselves and how we relate to everyone. Books by Dr. Tina Bryson The Way of Play (Tina’s latest book!) (https://www.tinabryson.com/the-way-of-play) The Whole-Brain Child (https://www.tinabryson.com/thewholebrainchild) No-Drama Discipline (https://www.tinabryson.com/nodramadiscipline) The Yes Brain (https://www.tinabryson.com/theyesbrain) The Power of Showing Up (https://www.tinabryson.com/thepowerofshowingup) Follow Tina Bryson TinaBryson.com Instagram X The Center for Connection Show Notes - Dr. Tina Bryson: an expert in neurobiology, parenting, child development, and attachment theory. - Highlighting Tina’s unique perspective as both a clinician and science-engaged researcher. - This conversation focuses on parenting, but it’s relevant for everyone—whether you’re a leader, mentor, or someone reflecting on your own upbringing - The importance of connection, attunement, and emotional regulation in today’s world. - "I feel so aware that this is not an easy time to be a child or a teenager in the world." - Kids today face unique challenges that are very different from previous generations: - More stimulation, information, and pressure than ever before. - Earlier onset of puberty and adolescence, with young adults taking longer to launch. - "We often talk about the challenges of youth, which are absolutely real, but we don’t want to forget that in many ways, the world is actually safer." - Positive shifts in youth well-being: fewer teen pregnancies; safer environments (cars, car seats, public spaces)l greater awareness of mental health, substance use, and emotional well-being - What Do You Say?: How to Talk with Kids to Build Motivation, Stress Tolerance, and a Happy Home (https://www.amazon.com/What-You-Say-Motivation-Tolerance/dp/1984880365), by William Stixrud and Ned Johnson - The brain is a social organ—we are profoundly shaped by the people around us. - "A huge contributor to some of the struggles youth are having is because their grownups are not thriving." - Interpersonal neurobiology teaches that children’s well-being is tied to their caregivers’ ability to regulate their own emotions. - Takeaway: Parents who are anxious, reactive, or dysregulated create environments where their children struggle to regulate their emotions. - "The greatest gift we can give each other is a calm presence." - “History is not destiny.” - Emotional offloading or outsourcing - Safe haven or safe harbor: cozy, safe, calm - “My mom will never listen.” - Understanding teenagers - “Please don’t chase your child and force connection.” - Non-eye contact feels less intrusive and they’ll open up more - Understanding Attachment & The Four S’s: Safe, Seen, Soothed, Secure - Secure attachment is a key predictor of well-being in children and adults. - Attachment is built through repeated experiences of the Four S’s: - Safe: "Do I feel physically and emotionally secure with this person?" - Seen: "Does this person understand and acknowledge my emotions and experiences?" - Soothed: "When I’m in distress, does this person help me feel better?" - Secure: "Do I trust that this person will be there for me consistently?" - Set an intention: "When my child walks through the door, I want them to feel at rest, safe, and accepted." - Practical Parenting Tip: If your child pushes you away, don’t force connection. Instead, say: "I can see you need some space right now. I’m here whenever you’re ready to talk." - Managing Teen Independence: When teens ask for space, don’t take it personally. Instead, try: "I’m here if you want to talk later." - "Would you be open to a short walk or helping me in the kitchen?" - The basics of attachment theory: John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth - Mama Bears - Not just brain, but whole nervous system - Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (https://www.amazon.com/Secure-Relating-Holding-Insecure-World/dp/0063334550), by Sue Marriot and Ann Kelley - "Without awareness, we don’t have choice."—Dan Siegel - History is not destiny. We can rewire our brains and create new, healthier patterns in relationships. - The availability of your presence creates a secure environment - Regulation & Emotional Resilience - Definition of Regulation: The ability to monitor and modify emotional states rather than reacting impulsively. - It’s NOT about being emotionless—it’s about responding intentionally - ”When we mess up, the research shows that as long as we make the repair, the rupture itself was actually beneficial.” - Tina Bryson’s Fragility Formula: Adversity minus support or plus too much support = fragility. Adversity plus the right amount of support = resilience. - Real-Life Example: The Yahtzee Incident - Tina shares a personal story of losing her temper while playing Yahtzee with her kids. - She repaired the rupture by apologizing, taking responsibility, and asking for a do-over. - Pink Flags vs. Red Flags - Pink Flags: Subtle signs that you’re getting dysregulated (irritability, sarcasm, tension) - Red Flags: Full-blown loss of control (yelling, throwing things, shutting down) - The Three R’s of Parenting: Regulation, Responding, Repairing - The Window of Tolerance - Gentle Parenting vs  Responsive, Respectful, Regulated, Intentional parenting - Regulation: Managing your emotions first - Responding: Engaging with your child in a safe, attuned way - Repairing: Acknowledging when you mess up and making amends - Reduce pressure—kids should not feel they must "perform" to be loved. - The Power of Breathwork: The Physiological Sigh - Quick, evidence-based technique to reduce stress and reset the nervous system. - Take a double inhale through the nose, followed by a longer exhale. - "It’s the quickest thing we know to calm the nervous system." - Non-eye-contact conversations (e.g., driving in the car) help teens feel less pressured. - The science of thriving vs. surviving: "Survive and thrive are not separate categories. What we do in survival moments can lead to thriving." - The River of Well-Being: A Person is Like a Boat on a River - The FACES Model for Well-Being (essentially a definition of thriving) - Flexible: Open to change and new ideas - Adaptive: Able to adjust based on new circumstances - Coherent: Emotional and cognitive stability - Energized: Engaged and present in life - Stable: Grounded and consistent - Family Dinner Time: Keeping it light, being more present - Practical Exercise to Regulate Emotions: The Deep Physiological Sigh - Turn down the reactivity of your nervous system - “The key is: Make your exhale longer than your inhale.” - “At his worst is when he needs you the most.” - Pre-frontal cortex development: Not mature until late-20s. - “The prefrontal cortex is changeable throughout the lifespan.” - The Yes Brain: How to Cultivate Courage, Curiosity, and Resilience in Your Child (https://www.amazon.com/Yes-Brain-Cultivate-Curiosity-Resilience/dp/039959468X), Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson - The YES Brain Approach: Four pillars that cultivate resilience in children BRIE (like the cheese) - Balance (emotional regulation) - Resilience (bouncing back from challenges) - Insight (self-awareness and growth mindset) - Empathy (understanding others’ experiences) - "Thriving isn’t about avoiding hardships—it’s about learning how to navigate them." - Recognize your influence: "Your child's nervous system mirrors yours. Take care of yourself first." - Discipline and morality - Harsh, punitive discipline doesn’t change behavior or develop a moral compass. It teaches them to hide the behavior. - Healthy Guilt vs Toxic Shame - “The way we don’t get kicked out of our group is our conscience.” - Guilt “is one of your superpowers.” - “No one can lose each other’s love.” - Give yourself permission to wait and not respond in the moment. - “My number one job is to keep you safe.” - No lecturing. “What do you think I would say here?” “What’s your plan to keep yourself safe?” - Tina Bryson on Faith and Spirituality - Healthy spirituality leads to feeling safe, seen, soothed, and secure. - The power of narrative and journaling: Making sense of our lives and integrating our brains - Parenting from the Inside Out (https://www.amazon.com/Parenting-Inside-Out-Self-Understanding-Anniversary/dp/039916510X), Dan Siegel and Mary Hartzell - The Power of Showing Up (https://www.amazon.com/Power-Showing-Up-Parental-Presence/dp/1524797731), Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson - Practical Exercise: Acknowledging, Noticing, and Accepting - “Negative emotions does not mean something’s wrong.” - “Emotions are important information, but they don’t make the final decision.” - Are your emotions making the decision? - Curiosity in order to bring softness and nurture. - Practice daily regulation: Set a personal cue (e.g., getting in the car) to check in with your emotions. - Embrace repair: "Making mistakes in parenting is inevitable—what matters is how you repair them." - Parenting is about progress, not perfection. "Every small shift you make has a ripple effect on your child’s well-being." - Pam King’s Key Takeaways - We’re inherently wired for connection, and our brains store all of our relational history. - Rupture is inevitable, but our capacity for repair can strengthen our bonds with each other when we make the effort to reconnect. - Thriving involves and integrates all our most intense emotions. We get *closer* to thriving when we can learn to regulate and integrate our inner emotional experience. - Attuning and paying attention to our nervous system is a core emotional and relational skill—and goes a long way in healthy, intimate relationships. - We were all children once. We were all parented, for better or for worse. Learning to integrate every aspect of our relational history can keep us on the path to thriving. About Tina Bryson Dr. Tina Bryson is an expert in applying interpersonal neurobiology and neuropsychology to maybe the most central part of human life: our closest, most intimate relationships. A bestselling co-author (with Dan Siegal) of THE WHOLE-BRAIN CHILD and NO-DRAMA DISCIPLINE, she has written several other books on parenting and the brain. Her latest book on the science of play came out in January 2025. Tina is a psychotherapist and the Founder and Executive Director of The Center for Connection. She speaks and advocates widely, has appeared across media outlets like TIME Magazine, “Good Morning America,” Huffington Post,Redbook, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. Her doctoral research explored attachment science, childrearing theory, and the emerging field of interpersonal neurobiology. But Tina emphasizes that before she’s a parenting educator, or a researcher, she’s a mom. Tina is an absolutely brilliant and motivating and encouraging communicator, breaking down the science of connection in a way that’s clear, realistic, humorous, and immediately helpful. For more resources from Tina, including her books, and science-packed relationship tips, visit https://www.thecenterforconnection.org/ and tinabryson.com.

To realize MLK’s vision of a Beloved Community, we’re all called to live from a moral conscience that interconnects and permeates society with justice and peace. Working at the intersection of politics, religion, and education, Dr. Lerone Martin of Stanford University is carrying forward the legacy of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in a social and historical context desperately in need of renewed moral imagination, connection across racial and economic divides, and the transformative power of love. In this conversation with Lerone Martin, we discuss: - How his spirituality integrates with the meaning of education and formation - The legacy of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., his vision of thriving and justice, and the relevance of his life and writings for the contemporary world - The role of emotion and affect and music in Christian faith and spirituality - We dive into the core elements of MLK’s famous “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” - We explore the joint power of courage and love in non-violent action - We look at practical insights about the kind of morality that leads to thriving, - And we close by asking the question posed in Martin Luther King’s final book, *Where do we go from here?* About Dr. Lerone Martin Dr. Lerone Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, and the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He’s a historian of 20th-century religion and a cultural commentator. He’s written books about White Christian Nationalism in the FBI, as well as the making of modern African American Christianity—as well as a book about MLK’s adolescence and his early sense of vocation and calling. He stays deeply connected to teaching and community service, teaching the “Why College?” freshman course at Stanford, inspiring underserved high school students in Los Angeles and St. Louis, and developing programming and teaching courses for the incarcerated. Visit the King Institute online at [kinginstitute.stanford.edu](http://kinginstitute.stanford.edu) or follow him on X [@DirectorMLK](https://x.com/DirectorMLK). Show Notes - Lerone Martin’s spiritual background and early Pentecostal faith, concerned with personal morality - Teaching and Preaching - “Why College?” Course at Stanford University - Individual Conscience and Life in the Beloved Community - Josiah Royce (1913) coined the term “Beloved Community” - Lerone Martin on: What is thriving? - Connections to community - Thriving as living out your vocation, love God, neighbor, and self - Set apart for something - “Set apart for the beloved community.” - What gave MLK his strength and resilience? - MLK’s adolescence and early sense of vocation for ministry, pastoral service, and leadership - Working in a Hartford, Connecticut kitchen to serve others and catch a vision for Beloved Community - The rediscovery and inspiration of MLK on young people today - References to Old Testament scripture in civil rights language - Centrality of “One Love” in MLK’s political activism - “Let justice roll down!” - Benjamin Elijah Mays: The love of God and love of humanity are one love.” - Thriving and living with dignity and respect - One love in a pluralistic setting - “We can’t just rely on expediency.” - Values and guiding North Star for morality - Teaching as a guide for students - His spirituality was shaped by his mother’s moral and cultural formation and his father’s ministry. - MLK and music - “The musicality of his voice.” - Spirituality as a jazz man - “[I Have Been to the Mountaintop](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC6qxf3b3FI)” (Delivered by MLK in Memphis on April 3, 1968, a day before his assassination) - “I’ve seen the Promised land.” - “The musicality of  his voice moves people.” - What is the role of music in Lerone Martin’s life: hip hop poetry, awe in gospel music, and improvisation and teamwork in jazz - “Music reminds me to be in my body.” - Non-violent direct action theory - The grit of practitioners of non-violent resistance - “ There's really nothing passive or weak about non-violent resistance.” - “ King would see a love as an action. For him, it's love in action because the means that you   use have to be commensurate  or match the ends that you seek.” - Despite the fact that someone’s oppressing you, you still love them.” - Changing how we define citizenship - The effectiveness of non-violent campaigns - “[Letter from a Birmingham Jail](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATPSht6318o)” (April 16, 1963) - “In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.” - The four steps of a non-violent campaign: (1) collection of facts, (2) negotiation, dialogue, disagreement, or communication, (3) self-purification and self-reflection to cultivate resilience, and (4) then direct action. - When does patience become passivity? - How do we live out “Letter from Birmingham Jail”? - Read it regularly, recognize the difference between just and unjust laws - Practice civil disobedience, but willingly, openly, and non-violently - The power of sacred texts - Cultivating the will to do justice, via love, courage, and discipline - [*Where Do We Go from Here?: Chaos or Community?*](https://www.amazon.com/Where-Do-We-Here-Community/dp/0807000671) - A path toward spiritual life or spiritual death? - Cultivating civic virtue, bringing it back into our politics and our homes - “Means must become commensurate to the ends we seek.” - Virtue and values - Pam King’s Key Takeaways - For justice to roll down, we need to see our interdependence, interconnectedness, and live into the unity of One Love. - There’s a difference between just and unjust laws, the challenge is in cultivating the moral sense to tell the difference, and the courage to do something about injustice. - Furthermore, the civil disobedience of MLK was grounded in the wisdom of community, accountability, and integrity. - Courage and love are deeply connected, and work together to guide us toward love of neighbor, stranger, and enemy. - Pursuing justice takes ~~true~~ grit and an agency that emerges from deep character formation, spiritual connection, and an unwavering commitment to realizing the beloved community.

Science can change your life. The more we study what makes people develop, grow, learn, and flourish—the more we see how the practical application of scientific findings can help us transform our life and experience—into a life of value, meaning, purpose and true thriving. Yale psychologist Laurie Santos has spent her career investigating the human brain and how it thrives. From her popular Yale course to her podcast, The Happiness Lab, she’s communicating actionable and hopeful lessons for how to build lasting habits, cultivate self-compassion, manage complex emotions, and realign our lives toward meaningful happiness. In this conversation with Dr. Laurie Santos, we discuss: - How the mental health crisis affecting young people changed her, and how she teaches psychology - How our brains lie to us - The role of positive and negative emotions in a good life - How feeling good can lead to doing good - The psychological and relational benefits of faith and spirituality - And she offers practical insights, science-backed guidance, and powerful exercises for managing misalignment and difficult emotions. Laurie Santos on how to activate psychological science for more happiness and meaning (from the episode): “Some of these factors that we know scientifically do work. From simple behavior changes like being more social, doing nice things for others, just healthy habits  like sleeping and moving your body,  to mindset shifts, to becoming a little bit more present, to becoming more other oriented, to becoming more grateful, more self-compassionate, and so on. There are shifts that we can make that can have a huge effect on how we actually interact in the world. We need to understand that we're not perfect, we're just human. And we will mess up a little bit too. But it's really the journey that   matters.” **About Laurie Santos** Dr. Laurie Santos is the Chandrika and Ranjan Tandon Professor of Psychology at Yale University and host of The Happiness Lab podcast. Dr. Santos is an expert on the science of happiness. Her Yale course, Psychology and the Good Life, teaches students how the science of psychology can provide important hints about how to make wiser choices and live a life that’s happier and more fulfilling. Her course recently became Yale’s most popular course in over 300 years, with almost one of our four students at Yale enrolled. Her course has been featured in numerous news outlets including the *New York Times*, *NBC Nightly News*, *The Today Show*, *GQ Magazine*, *Slate* and *O! Magazine*. A winner of numerous awards both for her science and teaching, she was recently voted as one of Popular Science Magazine’s “Brilliant 10” young minds, and was named in Time Magazine as a “Leading Campus Celebrity.” Her podcast, The Happiness Lab, has over 100 million downloads. Listen to [The Happiness Lab](https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos) podcast Visit [drlauriesantos.com](http://drlauriesantos.comhttps://www.drlauriesantos.com/) **Show Notes** - How Laurie got up close with the mental health crisis affecting young people - Self-care - The history of The Happiness Course at Yale University - The impact of COVID-19 - “Things have gotten worse.” - Statistics: More than 40% of college students report they are too depressed to function - Anxieties provoked by technology (Jonathan Haidt and Jean Twenge) - Stress levels across the developmental lifespan - How our brains lie to us - Behavioral changes and healthy habits - Mindset shifts and dispositional transformations - The importance of science for validating spiritual beliefs, values, and practices - Sometimes spiritual traditions get some things right, but can also be wrong, and need empirical study - Manifestation - Imagining the positive outcome isn’t as good as planning out the if-then strategy. - “The science can help us with the nuance so we can really get things right.” - Laurie Santos defines happiness - Psychological approach to happiness: “subjective well-being” - Positive vs Negative Emotions and the role they play in a good life - Why is happiness helpful to us? Is happiness really the goal? - The “feel-good, do-good effect” - Any cause-based activism requires - Laurie Santos answers: What is thriving? - Mindset and behavioral change - Non-judgmental response - Self-compassion and curiosity - “It’s really the journey that matters.” - Helping others - Burnout and Self-care - Stressors that lead to burnout - The impact of rest on productivity - Religion and Happiness: Are religious people happier than non-religious? - Social connection - Growing up Catholic - Comparing Beliefs vs Behaviors and Mindsets - It’s less about religious beliefs and more about religious practices - Communal Practices - Transcendent Emotions - Oversimplifying transcendent emotions - Awe and Wonder often come along with a disturbance, such as feeling very small, feeling out of control, feeling disoriented, feeling overwhelmed, etc. - Dacher Keltner’s tourist studies “Draw yourself in your scene” - Feeling tinier, and yet more connected - “I’m part of everything, but I am nothing. How do I deal with that?” - Evolution and the human mind - What is our brain for? It’s for survival. It’s not for feeling great. - Negativity Bias - Kent Barrage: Neuroscience of Hedonic Pleasure - Liking vs Wanting - Drugs of Abuse - “If there was one thing I could change about the brain it would be …” - Psychedelic drugs such as psilocybin - David Yaden (Johns Hopkins) on psychedelic drugs - We can change (and a lot of people are shocked by that) - Can’t change vs. Changing circumstances - Sonya Libermursky - “Yes, you can change, not by changing circumstances, but by changing your habits.” - Netflix and a glass of wine? Or something healthier? - Introducing new habits over time - Meditation Practice: Cultivating Presence When Things are Feeling Bad - “Nauseously Optimistic” - Tara Brach and Radical Acceptance - R.A.I.N. (Recognize, Allow, Investigate, and Nurture) - Fundamental needs - Natural selection and cravings - Craving doomscrolling on Reddit - [*Thriving with Stone Age Minds: Evolutionary Psychology, Christian Faith, and the Quest for Human Flourishing](https://www.ivpress.com/thriving-with-stone-age-minds)* (Justin Barrett and Pam King) - Self-flagellation, frustration, and criticizing ourselves - [Kristin Neff on Self-Compassion](https://self-compassion.org/) - Self-Compassion: Mindfulness, Common Humanity, and Self-Kindness - How to talk to yourself - Self-compassion is helpful for cultivating new habits - Practice: Self-Compassionate Touch - “The beauty of self-touch is that your brain is stupid. It doesn’t know who’s touching you.” - Taking stock and paying attention to our own emotional dashboards - New Year’s Advice: A moment of fresh starts and new beginnings

Christmas is about the love of God given to us in Christ. Love compels us forward through darkness and light—enabling us to grow and change, connect and relate, forgive and let go, and make a difference and seek justice. This December, we’re celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam King—considering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year. We’d be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute. Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!

Joy is more than a feeling. It’s a virtue. And it’s something we can cultivate. We live into joy when we encounter who or what matters most to us. It’s associated with our life's deepest yearnings and connection. This December, we’re celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam King—considering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year. We’d be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute. Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!

Peace can be elusive, but if set an intention to be instruments of peace—both in offering it and experiencing it—it has the power to transform us. Peace is often an indication that life is in balance and going well, either in the immediate or the eternal sense. This December, we’re celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam King—considering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year. We’d be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute. Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!

Hope is powerful. It’s more than a feeling. It’s a foundation for getting us through even the darkest of times. The season of Advent provides the opportunity to attune to hope, become aware of our deepest hopes and desires, and then align our lives to hope. This December, we’re celebrating Advent with you by offering four guided meditations by Dr. Pam King—considering how to cultivate the Advent virtues of hope, peace, joy, and love into our lives this year. We’d be grateful if you considered the Thrive Center in your year-end giving. To make a year-end tax-deductible gift, visit thethrivecenter.org/contribute. Don't forget that Season 2 of With & For launches with all new episodes on January 6, 2025!