Things Musicians Don't Talk About

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Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

113 episodes

2 weeks ago

Hattie Butterworth and Rebecca Toal host a podcast of insight and change in the classical music and arts professions. Delving into the often stigmatised worlds of mental health, injury, discrimination and productivity, classical music issues are spoken and revived. Join Hattie, Rebecca and guests for important conversations, inspiring moments of wisdom and poignant vulnerability.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

All content for Things Musicians Don't Talk About is the property of Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Episodes (20/113)

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

103. The Break Down: Saudi Arabia, Hopelessness & Activism

Welcome to our rebranded 'chatty episodes' - now, with middling irony and an exaggerated sense of self-awareness, called The Break Down.

Hattie brings our Classical Strife newsletter segment to the podcast, we chat about The Met x Saudi Arabia's hot new #collab, we dis/agree on activism, and come to the usual conclusion that mental health is difficult.

Like, subscribe, review (if it's nice), and share with both friends and enemies.

Watch this episode on Youtube here.

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A big thank you to our sponsors for this episode, ABRSM. Check out their new woodwind syllabus here.

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Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

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Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Rebecca Toal

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

2 weeks ago

57 minutes 19 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

102. Ophelia Gordon: living though anorexia and divorce

Words hold huge power, and for a long time the word 'anorexia' felt dirty to pianist Ophelia Gordon. First experiencing its wrath while studying at the BRIT School and watching her parents' divorce unravel her life, anorexia would return two years ago when Ophelia separated from her husband. She joins Hattie and Rebecca to uncover the story of her eating disorder, the trauma of divorce and the ways in which learning and recording Nikolai Kapustin's music has saved her life.

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

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Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Hattie Butterworth

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

1 month ago

57 minutes 8 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

101. Jessica Curry: when things fall apart

'If it could have gone wrong it has gone wrong'. The last five years for Jessica Curry, a composer of contemporary classical game music, has been marked by severe illness and personal loss. She joins Hattie and Becca on Things Musicians Don't Talk About to share her journey being diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis and subsequently shielding during the pandemic. She explains the emotional toll of isolation, the importance of community and support, noting the industry's lack of empathy and her efforts to promote inclusivity.

Jessica's latest album, born out of the adversity of this time, Shielding Songs, is an album of her choral music recorded with the London Voices, which is out now on Bandcamp.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

2 months ago

1 hour 3 minutes 38 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

100. We listened to our old episodes… and immediately regretted it

We have reached episode 100 and so decided, as a celebration, we'd take a wee look back... we might now regret it! Listen as we react to the first episode we made together, now over four years ago! Becca also tests Hattie on five years of hot takes – who said what and when?

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

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Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Hattie

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

3 months ago

51 minutes 41 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

99. Lauren McQuistin: eating disorders in classical music (live)

*Trigger warning: discussion of eating disorders, alcoholism, addiction*

From our live event at the Royal Society of Musicians on 22nd May 2025

Lauren McQuistin has been running the Instagram account @brutalrecovery for years now. Her advocacy for honest recovery discourse has resonated with many alcoholics, particularly with her with her trademark eloquence and dry humour. Lauren now shares her experience of eating disorders - anorexia and bulimia in particular - and how this was especially shaped by her time as a classically-trained soprano. We asked her about her journey through her musical training and her addictions, her views on why there is such a high prevalence of EDs in classical music, body image critique in the opera world, eating disorders as addictions, how her recovery looks day-to-day now, and her new book No Lost Causes Club. As Hattie and I say in the talk, we've really struggled to find someone in classical music to speak about this subject, so huge thank you Lauren for being that person.

Check out Lauren on Instagram and go read her new book!

Thank you to forScore for advertising with us and to the Royal Society of Musicians for their ongoing support.

forScore: https://forscore.co

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor & engineer: Oscar Gormley

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

3 months ago

58 minutes 35 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

98. Performative workaholism, surviving criticism and intuitive eating

Hattie and Becca discuss the need for many creatives to prove themselves to others online, often sharing data about their work. Do we need a structure and numeric guide for practice or can it be intuitive? And how does this link to intuitive eating? They also go on to discuss the complexities of dealing with criticism, where that sensitivity comes from and how Hattie copes with empathy for performers whilst writing reviews

02:51 Workaholics and their quirks

16:20 Intuitive eating vs intuitive practice

23:55 Hattie receives criticism at work

26:15 Confidence, criticism and power structures

35:45 Writing reviews and empathy for performers

35:40 Cultural recommendations

We've got some absolutely stellar interviews lined up for release, with some MORE FILMED CONTENT 🤯 see you soon!

Thank you to forScore for advertising with us and to the Royal Society of Musicians for their ongoing support 🙏

forScore: https://forscore.co

RSM: https://www.rsmgb.org

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Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Rebecca Toal

Music: Katy Ehrlich

#podcast #musicpodcast #musician #mentalhealth

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

4 months ago

40 minutes 4 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

97. Jamie Barton: embodying pride

Mezzo-soprano Jamie Barton has been fighting the corner of the marginalised in classical music now for over 10 years. From a marriage breakdown to a queer awakening and struggles with learning repertoire, Jamie joins Hattie and Becca to discuss her experiences as a queer woman in America and her journey to discovering her ADHD. She also shares powerful insights into body positivity, her approach to music and the importance of using her platform to support marginalised communities

Jamie Barton is at London Classical Pride on 4 July. Tickets here!

Thank you to forScore for advertising with us and to the Royal Society of Musicians for their ongoing support.

forScore: https://forscore.co

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Emma Werner

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

4 months ago

1 hour 5 minutes 51 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

96. Back again, but different

Entering our YouTube era...! And we're talking about returning to things we didn't expect to: Hattie to America and Becca to the harp.

We also have a good ol' think about child prodigies, faith and praying, and Becca obsesses further about JULY.

We've got some absolutely stellar interviews lined up for release, so stay tuned.

Thank you to forScore for advertising with us and to the Royal Society of Musicians for their ongoing support 🙏

forScore: https://forscore.co

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Rebecca Toal

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

5 months ago

34 minutes 5 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

95. Meditation for musicians: calming the inner critic

After a performance we term as 'bad', it can be difficult to return to a sense of confidence in our playing. In this fourth mediation, Ruth Philips leads a meditation to disarm the inner critic and restore a sense of peace and acceptance in our performing.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

5 months ago

16 minutes 14 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

94. Meditation for musicians: connecting with your audience

Our aim as musicians is to communicate generously and freely to our audience but we rarely turn towards ourselves with the same degree of care. In this meditation, Ruth Philips leads a loving kindness practice, exploring how it might be to extend that kindness outwards towards our audience

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

5 months ago

17 minutes 26 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

93. Meditation for musicians: reconnecting with your instrument

This meditation aims to bring you closer to your instrument and aid in healing any sense of disconnect you may be feeling

Discover Ruth Philips

*Ruth Philips and Lucy Russell are running a course 'Mindfulness for Musicians' at Benslow Music from 13-15 June. More information here*

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Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

5 months ago

22 minutes 23 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

92. Meditation for musicians: pre-performance anxiety

A meditation for musicians lead by cellist and mindfulness meditation teacher Ruth Philips for use to calm the mind around stage fright and performance anxiety.

Discover Ruth Philips

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Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

6 months ago

19 minutes 24 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

91. I wasn’t as good at the cello as I thought I was

'On returning from America, I listened back to lots of my old recordings and discovered a paradox: I had no confidence but also thought I deserved more – thought I was better than I really was'. Hattie sits down to share reflections from her trip to America from health anxiety and Curtis, to self-love and deleting dating apps

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

6 months ago

22 minutes 28 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

90. Lucy Humphris: embracing otherness

This week we interview trumpet player Lucy Humphris about her journey through music college and the contemporary music scene. We speak about the institutional barriers Lucy and others face as a female brass player with a non-traditional career trajectory, sharing her experiences of feeling "othered" and misunderstood.

From battling expectations of orchestral conformity to navigating the complex landscape of contemporary music, Lucy reveals the personal and professional struggles of forging her own path. She explores themes of identity, resilience, and the often unspoken challenges musicians face when their artistic vision doesn't align with traditional institutional norms. Lucy inspires us with her story, her dedication to artistic integrity, and the way she's found her place in the contemporary music world.

Thank you Lucy!

Check her out further:

Website

Youtube

Instagram

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

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Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/v9jgf-things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Rebecca Toal

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

6 months ago

48 minutes 20 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

89. Rigid control, guilt and returning to exercise

Eating disorders and intense practice obsession have a lot in common. How do we move from an 'all or nothing' mindset to something structured and regular? Becca shares the start to her return to exercise following healing from an eating disorder and Hattie shares the parallels to the toxic relationship she has to the cello and hours of practice

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

7 months ago

31 minutes 31 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

88. Beyond the 'woman' conversation: Gillian Moore and CN Lester Live at RSM

There are statements made time and time again when you approach the topic of women in music: 'but historically music by men is just better', 'I'm sick of this wokeism in classical music' and 'people won't buy tickets to concerts of just women's music'. CN Lester and Gillian Moore join us live at the Royal Society of Musicians to unpack these statements and uncover the truth to performance, programming and pessimism around classical women composers.

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

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Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Katy Ehrlich

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

7 months ago

1 hour 3 minutes 48 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

87. Emily White on grief, teaching and the joy of letting go

10 years ago trombonist Emily White lost her husband after a prolonged period of illness. She was thrown into the worlds of death admin and loneliness, but out of it discovered a perspective on what was important as a musician. She shares with Hattie and Becca an insight into her grief journey, as well as her infectious joy of teaching and hatred of the word 'should'. Emily also takes them through her interest in research about practice and performance optimisation and how much joy is able to impact us positively as musicians.

Learn more about Emily here!

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is now supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Oscar Gormley

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

8 months ago

1 hour 9 minutes 16 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

86. Book Club: anti-psychiatry and doublings

Is capitalism to blame for the mental health crisis? Should we separate the art from the artist? Rebecca and Hattie have been reading non-fiction. And they are sharing two of the books with each other. Naomi Klein's Doppelganger won the Women's Prize for Non-Fiction in 2024 and has had a strong impact since it hit the bookshelves. The pressure for us to 'perform' online is overwhelming, and Becca brings a musician's perspective to Klein's reflections. Then to what appeared to be anti-psychiatry in James Davies's book Sedated. He blames much of our negative mental health experiences on toxic work culture and the flawed nature of CBT. Medication may not have as much of an impact long term as we might like. Hattie has thoughts...

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is now supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hosts: Hattie Butterworth & Rebecca Toal

Editor: Emma Werner

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

9 months ago

1 hour 9 minutes 31 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

85. Mark Brierley on being seen, classical music marketing and the origins of RSM

Mark Brierley came to the world of classical music via journalism and without any prior knowledge of the industry. Now, as Head of Membership and Communications at the Royal Society of Musicians, he spends every day hearing from musicians about the reality of their lives. He speaks with Hattie at the RSM headquarters about the origins of the 'Fund for Decay'd Musicians', his perspectives on the industry as an 'outsider' and how he's developed a love for it. They also discuss marketing and communications for musicians, how to be heard and the impact of membership at the RSM.

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is now supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hosts: Hattie Butterworth

Editor: Oscar Gormley

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

9 months ago

38 minutes 21 seconds

Things Musicians Don't Talk About

84. Musical theatre and emotional regulation

It's Becca's turn to sit down for a solo check in with the help of some listener questions. The grief journey continues, as does the freelancing, and Becca reflects on emotional regulation, balancing her various jobs, and processing the death of an abuser.

Things Musicians Don't Talk About is now supported by the Royal Society of Musicians! Follow RSM on Instagram, X and Facebook.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Support TMDTA

Want to support us on a regular basis? Consider joining our Patreon from £1 a month: https://www.patreon.com/tmdta

Feeling generous? Help us raise funds for the podcast: https://www.gofundme.com/f/things-musicians-dont-talk-about

Find TMDTA on all the socials at @tmdtapodcast

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Hosts: Rebecca Toal

Editors: Rebecca Toal and @mehrose786

Music: Katy Ehrlich

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

10 months ago

35 minutes 37 seconds