Walk into any store or flip on a radio, and you’ll probably hear the Police’s “Every Breath You Take” sooner or later. Thanks to that ubiquity, the swooning, menacing megahit’s songwriter—Sting—is a very wealthy man. Now his former bandmates, Stewart Copeland and Andy Summers, are suing Sting over who deserves to profit from “Breath” and other Police songs. No matter how that dispute turns out, it’s a reminder of Sting’s uncanny songwriting skill and his charmed life of hitmaking. For more than four decades, Sting seems to resurface every few years with a new earworm, from “Roxanne” to “Russians,” blending New Wave rock with another genre—reggae, jazz, classical, country, even rap and Raï—and in the process, getting sampled by new generations of millennial and zoomer hitmakers. Join Chris Molanphy as he recounts the long, varied, sophisticated, but catchy career of the King of Pain. Whatever he tries, every little thing Sting does is magic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As MCC grew as a denomination, they tried to figure out if and how to relate to other churches. Would any befriend a queer church? And if so, would that friendship help other churches shift their perspective on homosexuality? These questions got harder as AIDS numbers grew—it made people more afraid yet friendship more vital. But sometimes friendship emerges in the most unlikely of places. Like when a children’s choir visited an AIDS ward in San Francisco and sang for an MCC member there. That connection started a partnership between their churches that changed them both. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-4. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Domestic BGM. “Who Kept Us” is by Dr. Margaret Douroux. “The Wicked Shall Cease” is by Jessy Dixon. “Jesus is Here Right Now” is by Leon Roberts. “Child of God” and “Walk Together Children” are traditional African American spirituals.  Special thanks to Mary Clover Obrzut, Stephen’s sister, for insights into his life and for so much great audio. Dr. Cheryl Townsend Gilkes for telling us about Stephen’s time at Union Baptist and connecting us with folks there.  Alfred Williams for helping us get connected to Double Rock. Dr. April Parker and Mardy Coates for facilitating the use of “Who Kept Us.”  And to the folks at Double Rock Baptist Church, past and present, especially the beloved Minister of Music.   Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups Balm in Gilead – works to integrate public health and faith principles. It was founded by Dr. Pernessa Seale in to help Black churches address HIV/AIDS and support people and families living with AIDS. Double Rock Baptist Church – is still worshipping and ministering in Bayview/Hunters Point. They were deeply involved in community support during the Covid-19 epidemic.  Love All People – is the ministry that introduced MCC to Margaret Douroux’s song, Who Kept Us, to MCC.  National Minority AIDS Council – works for heath equality and racial justice to end the AIDS epidemic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the late ‘80s, two MCC San Francisco ministers wrote an article called “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS.” We wanted to know how a gay/lesbian church came to call itself “a church with AIDS.” The answers lie in the years before our audio archive begins. So we started asking people. We explore two stories in what’s likely a more complicated shift. One story is about a pair of religion geeks who learned to make queer church in New York during the early years of the AIDS crisis and then came to San Francisco to lead MCCSF. And the other is how an Easter Sunday ritual made the Christian hope of life through death viscerally real. “We Are the Church Alive, the Church with AIDS,” by Kittredge Cherry and Jamies Mitulski was published in the Christian Century on January 27, 1988. For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-3. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  “We See You God” is a variation on the anonymously written hymn “We See the Lord.” The soloist in “I Lift Mine Eyes Up” is Bob Crocker. It’s by Antonin Dvorak, Biblical Songs, Op. 99, no. 9 on Psalm 121.  “Hush, Hush. Somebody’s Calling My Name” is a traditional African American spiritual.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.   Some links to good groups: The Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco – the congregation’s current website.  Metropolitan Community Churches – the denomination of which MCC San Francisco is a part.  San Francisco AIDS Foundation – a place to seek information about HIV.  POZ Magazine – a place to learn everything else about HIV (information included). Save AIDS Research – their recent, epic 24 hours to Save Research conference with all the latest HIV research is available on YouTube through this site.   LGBTQ Religious Archives Network – the place to get lost in LGBTQ+ religious history. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Walk into any store or flip on a radio, and you’ll probably hear the Police’s “Every Breath You Take” sooner or later. Thanks to that ubiquity, the swooning, menacing megahit’s songwriter—Sting—is a very wealthy man. Now, his former bandmates, Stewart Copeland and Andy Summers, are suing Sting over who deserves to profit from “Breath” and other Police songs.. No matter how that dispute turns out, it’s a reminder of Sting’s uncanny songwriting skill and his charmed life of hitmaking. For more than four decades, Sting seems to resurface every few years with a new earworm, from “Roxanne” to “Russians,” blending New Wave rock with another genre—reggae, jazz, classical, country, even rap and Raï—and in the process, getting sampled by new generations of Millennial and Zoomer hitmakers. Join Chris Molanphy as he recounts the long, varied, sophisticated, but catchy career of the King of Pain. Whatever he tries, every little thing Sting does is magic. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why would an out queer person in the Gay Liberation Days of the 1970s go to church? What church would they go to? And why would they stay? In the 1960s, and ‘70s, the separation between God and gays was not as vast as it seemed. Rev. Troy Perry started the first Metropolitan Community Church in his Los Angeles living room. Tired of flying to LA every week, a Navy veteran started the second one in a San Francisco gay bar. And the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco was there for a young lesbian as she navigated spirituality, coming out, and her increasingly conservative family. When her friend got sick, she tried to be there for him. Church helped.       For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-2. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Production credits:  When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Dr. Heather White, author of Reforming Sodom: Protestants and the Rise of Gay Rights. Scott Bloom and Trogoidia Pictures for the use of clips from the film Call Me Troy. The Center for LGBTQ and Gender Studies at the Pacific School of Religion and the Graduate Theological Union for the use of an archival recording of Troy Perry’s last sermon as the minister at MCC Los Angeles.  Kirke Machem for the use of his beautiful composition, “Blow Ye, the Trumpet,” from the opera, John Brown. Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As Outward proudly presents the 10-episode series When We All Get to Heaven, from Eureka Street Productions, Christina and Bryan had the privilege of sitting down with series host Lynne Gerber. Lynne explains how 1,200 cassette tapes became a wealth of archival audio that infuses this series with so much vitality, joy, and shared mourning of queer churches during a devastating epidemic. Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Produced by Palace Shaw. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.    When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story.  Great thanks, as always, to the members and clergy of the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco who made this project possible.  Get more Outward with Slate Plus! Join for weekly bonus episodes of Outward and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Outward show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or visit slate.com/outwardplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the rarefied world of smash pop singles, there are No. 1s—and there are No. 1 debuts. Entering Billboard’s Hot 100 at the top is one of the hardest tricks in music. In fact, it wasn’t possible in the U.S. until 1995. That’s when the record labels hacked the Hot 100 and figured out how to send new singles straight into the chart penthouse.  But scoring a No. 1 in Week One doesn’t mean it’s built to last. For every enduring hit like “Fantasy,” “Shake It Off” or “Hello,” there are plenty of one-off oddities, coronation pabulum from American Idol finalists, and even a few missteps from chart luminaries. Within a couple of years these fast-breaking hits may be forgotten—never to be spun on the radio or streamed on Spotify. Join Chris Molanphy as he explores the chart calculus, superfan interventions, and fluky conditions that create a perfect storm of pop-chart insta-success. It’s a parade of pop bangers that scored a fast pass to the front of the line.Get more Hit Parade with Slate Plus! Join for monthly early-access episodes, bonus episodes of "The Bridge," and ad-free listening across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe directly from the Hit Parade show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/hitparadeplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Olivia Briley. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Emily Bazelon talks with author and Yale professor Judith Resnik about her new book, Impermissible Punishments: How Prison Became a Problem for Democracy. They discuss the history of the prison system’s use of punishments like whipping, how the practice came to an end, and more.   Tweet us your questions @SlateGabfest or email us at gabfest@slate.com. (Messages could be quoted by name unless the writer stipulates otherwise.)   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the rarefied world of smash pop singles, there are No. 1s—and there are No. 1 debuts. Entering Billboard’s Hot 100 at the top is one of the hardest tricks in music. In fact, it wasn’t possible in the U.S. until 1995. That’s when the record labels hacked the Hot 100 and figured out how to send new singles straight into the chart penthouse.  But scoring a No. 1 in Week One doesn’t mean it’s built to last. For every enduring hit like “Fantasy,” “Shake It Off” or “Hello,” there are plenty of one-off oddities, coronation pabulum from American Idol finalists, and even a few missteps from chart luminaries. Within a couple of years these fast-breaking hits may be forgotten—never to be spun on the radio or streamed on Spotify. Join Chris Molanphy as he explores the chart calculus, superfan interventions, and fluky conditions that create a perfect storm of pop-chart insta-success. It’s a parade of pop bangers that scored a fast pass to the front of the line. Get more Hit Parade with Slate Plus! Join for monthly early-access episodes, bonus episodes of "The Bridge," and ad-free listening across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe directly from the Hit Parade show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/hitparadeplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Kevin Bendis and Olivia Briley. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There is a “stuckness” to American political life right now, which has become a seemingly inexorable centrifuge of polarization, victimization and power grabbing. The constitution is brandished as sword and shield, and also as though it is the word of God. Americans, it seems, have lost the ability to think creatively and expansively about the constitution, and our ability to amend it. On this week’s Amicus, Dahlia Lithwick is in conversation with Jill Lepore, whose new book “We The People: A History of The U.S. The Constitution is a thorough and bold excavation of a central, but utterly neglected part of America’s constitutional scheme: the amendment process. In her book, and in this interview, Lepore challenges Americans to rekindle their constitutional imaginations and really think about what the act of mending, repairing, or amending has meant through the nation’s history, and could mean for a country on the brink.  Want more Amicus? Join Slate Plus to unlock weekly bonus episodes with exclusive legal analysis. Plus, you’ll access ad-free listening across all your favorite Slate podcasts. You can subscribe directly from the Amicus show page on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/amicusplus to get access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sped-up voices. Wacky instruments. Songs about cavemen, bathtubs, bikinis, and mothers-in-law. From the dawn of rock ‘n’ roll through the 1970s—the age of streaking, CB radios, disco and King Tut—novelty songs could be chart-topping hits. But by the corporate ’80s, it was harder for goofballs to score hits on regimented radio playlists. Until one perm-headed, mustachioed, accordion-playing parodist who called himself “Weird” rebooted novelty hits for the new millennium.  In the second part of this encore episode of Hit Parade, Chris Molanphy explores the history of novelty hits on the charts. Podcast production by Justin D. Wright and Kevin Bendis. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Political Gabfest host Emily Bazelon talks with Jonathan Mahler about his new book, The Gods of New York. They discuss the unraveling of Mayor Ed Koch’s New York City; how the city’s current mayoral race is mirroring the past; and more.   Tweet us your questions @SlateGabfest or email us at gabfest@slate.com. (Messages could be quoted by name unless the writer stipulates otherwise.)   Podcast production by Cheyna Roth. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sped-up voices. Wacky instruments. Songs about cavemen, bathtubs, bikinis and mothers-in-law. From the very birth of rock-and-roll, novelty songs were essential elements of the hit parade. Right through the ’70s—the age of streaking, CB radios, disco and King Tut—novelty songs could be chart-topping hits. But by the corporate ’80s, it was harder for goofballs to score round-the-clock hits on regimented radio playlists. Until one perm-headed, mustachioed, accordion-playing parodist who called himself “Weird” rebooted novelty hits for the new millennium. A video jokester before YouTube, he just might have ushered in the age of the meme. So join Hit Parade this month as we walk through the history of novelty hits on the charts—most especially if M.C. Escher is your favorite M.C. Podcast production by Justin D. Wright  and Kevin Bendis Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Experimental archeology is, simply put, archeology that involves running experiments. Where traditional archaeologists may study, research, analyze, and theorize about how artifacts were made or used, experimental archaeologists actually try to recreate, test, and use them to see what they can learn. In doing so, they have given the field a whole new way to glean clues and get insights into the lives of our ancestors. Sam Kean is the author of a new book all about experimental archaeology called Dinner with King Tut. With help from him and a few archaeologists, we dig into a number of puzzles that experimental archaeology has helped solve—conundrums involving ancient megafauna, bizarre cookware, and deep sea voyages. In this episode, you’ll hear from archaeologists Susan Kaplan of Bowdoin College and Karen Harry of University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and Native Hawaiian activist and storyteller Nāʻālehu Anthony. To learn more about the story of Hokule’a and its first navigator, Mau Piailug, watch Nāʻālehu Anthony’s 2010 documentary, Papa Mau: The Wayfinder, as well as The Navigators: Pathfinders of the Pacific. This episode was produced by Katie Shepherd and Max Freedman. Decoder Ring is also produced by Willa Paskin and Evan Chung, our supervising producer. Merritt Jacob is Senior Technical Director. We had mixing help from Kevin Bendis. We’d also like to thank Metin Eren and Paul Benham. If you have any cultural mysteries you want us to decode, email us at DecoderRing@slate.com or leave a message on our hotline at (347) 460-7281. Get more of Decoder Ring with Slate Plus! Join for exclusive bonus episodes of Decoder Ring and ad-free listening on all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe from the Decoder Ring show page on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or, visit slate.com/decoderplus for access wherever you listen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From the Statue of Liberty to the Golden Gate Bridge, and places in between like Yellowstone and the site of the Battle of Gettysburg, the National Park Service has been a point of American pride since its inception. And with a small budget and actually generating revenue, even fiscal hawks had no reason to complain.  So why is the Trump administration cutting their budget?  Guests: Jon B. Jarvis,18th director of the National Parks and executive director for the Institute for Parks, People and Biodiversity at UC Berkeley. Kevin Heatley, former superintendent of Crater Lake National Park, Oregon.   Want more What Next? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Ethan Oberman, Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Outward is going on a little summer break, in the meantime we’re leaving you with a delightfully queer episode of Slate’s Hit Parade with Chris Molanphy: Little Richard was rock ‘n’ roll’s flamboyant architect. Lesley Gore sang that no one owned her. Sylvester was a gender-fluid icon who helped define disco. Freddie Mercury made rock operatic, and George Michael demanded freedom. What all of these LGBTQ artists had in common was bold hitmaking—and fear of being fully out of the closet. For decades, queer acts topped the charts while cloaking their true identities and paving the way for today’s more openly queer stars. For Pride Month, join Chris Molanphy as he traces the hidden history of queer hitmakers on the charts—including those that managed to be both out and No. 1, right up through our modern age of Lil Nas X and Chappell Roan. It’s a celebration of these artists’ quest to feel… mighty real. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When Kendrick Lamar took the Super Bowl halftime stage in 2025 and had the stadium chanting along to “Not Like Us”, it was clear: diss tracks had gone stratospheric. The Kendrick vs. Drake beef echoes legendary rap rivalries like Biggie vs. Tupac and Jay Z vs. Nas—but diss tracks stretch back through a century of American pop, long before hip-hop, all the way to the days of Tin Pan Alley. From Eddie Cantor and James Brown, to John Lennon and Carly Simon, to Kool Moe Dee and Lauryn Hill, artists have been turning personal grudges into hits for over a century. Step this way and join Chris Molanphy as he traces the history of answer records, diss tracks and rap beefs that shaped the charts and the culture. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, Bryan is joined by theologian, activist, and ballroom historian Michael Roberson to discuss his new book, Ballroom: A History, A Movement, A Celebration. Roberson traces the rich legacy of the ballroom scene—from its origins in resistance and survival, to its role in shaping public health responses during the height of the AIDS crisis and beyond, to its ongoing significance as a spiritual and communal refuge for Black and Latinx queer and trans people.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A federal force—often defying local governance—coming to take people away without due process has happened before. What lessons can be drawn from parallels between a law that led to the Civil War and what’s happening today with Trump’s hardline immigration enforcement? Guest: Jamelle Bouie, columnist at the New York Times Want more What Next? Subscribe to Slate Plus to access ad-free listening to the whole What Next family and across all your favorite Slate podcasts. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts by clicking “Try Free” at the top of our show page. Sign up now at slate.com/whatnextplus to get access wherever you listen. Podcast production by Ethan Oberman, Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, and Rob Gunther. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices