In the early days of Australia’s craft beer explosion there was a brewery that out cooled all the others. I remember seeing their tight branding, the confidence that exuded from their marketing and their insane growth trajectory and just being immediately jealous of Black Hops Brewery.
When I sat down to write my book in 2019 I even found out these guys had already written one about their start-up process. And they did a podcast. They looked successful. People were raving about them. They were beating the odds.
Then a few years ago I heard that the brewery had fallen on hard times and that one of the owners, Dan Norris, had even left the brewery he had co-founded with his 2 friends.
So I reached out. Didn’t get a yes. But I’m not the give up type of guy. I really wanted to hear this story and needed to share it with you so I kept pinging Dan over the next few years.
Finally Dan reached a point that he wanted to share the story, set the record straight and vent out some of his experience. My guests and I, and many of you, know exactly what that feels like.
I truly had no idea what I was about to hear. The story of Dan’s brewery had many of the same struggles we’ve covered before. But his brewery was selling millions of dollars of beer every year, expanding exponentially and raising so much money that Black Hops was valued right into the stratosphere.
The brewery was killing it, right up until it wasn’t.
And what you’re about to hear will inspire you, concern you, make you question and give you pause. I doubt it will convince you to start a mid-sized brewery on the Gold Coast, but it will teach you a lot about How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
Ralph Rapa wanted to open a small craft brewery on his terms. He wanted it to reflect his life in the American railroad industry. He wanted it to be comfortable, unpretentious and fun.
So he enlisted his longtime friend Lisa Henrie to handle marketing, HR and PR, raised some capital and shoveled coal in the engine of Rule G Brewing Company in South Florida.
After a solid start, the brewery was plagued by catastrophe after calamity. Anyone who doesn’t listen to this show would be shocked to hear what they went through. But you’ll hear many of the same tragic tribulations that other guests have shared.
Of the things that make their story unique, Ralph and Lisa faced down their troubles inside of their first year, eventually shutting down just in time to enjoy Easter with a little peace.
Ralph and Lisa both have a full bucket of emotions around their experience fighting to open, run and eventually attempting to save a craft brewery in 2024/2025. And thanks to them sharing THAT story we’re all about to know a little more about how NOT to start a DAMN brewery.
Doug Martin is a guy who has just about done it all.
From working in beer in Germany to opening a brewery in California to pivoting to non-alcohol products, he’s followed many of the playbooks that the craft beer talking heads are claiming will save your business.
But he’s on this show because the many beer-related businesses and non-beer production businesses he had his hands in have all closed down.
Doug has a wealth of experience to share with us about what he tried, why it didn’t work and what he thinks that says about the future of craft beer.
And he was generous enough to share all of what he’s seen and what he knows with us so we’ll know, How NOT To Start a Damn Brewery.
Sam and Sara Kazmer brought great craft beer to a market they felt was underserved - Atlanta, Georgia when they flipped on the lights at Elsewhere Brewing in 2020.
They wanted to produce award-winning beer in a unique, community-event driven taproom. They wanted to create space, community and memories for themselves and every customer that shared in their dream. And, as we’ll hear in the 4th segment, they were successful.
The whole project was an amalgamation of the experiences they had researching craft beer while traveling the world. Drinking, tasting, connecting and experiencing beer when it’s more than beer in other countries and continents.
In the 3rd segment we’re joined by 6 month-old Sofie as she woke up from her nap. And that’s about the time we really get into the struggles they faced at elsewhere Brewing.
As their fan starts to really fill up with shit, Sam and Sara knew that they needed to throw a Hail Mary pass quickly. So in the Spring of 2024 they hired a new ops manager, built a team and a strategy around her and did everything they could to rally the ATL community around the beer and the vision of Elsewhere Brewing. They set a July deadline for profitability and as you may have guessed, they are a guest on this podcast because it didn’t work.
We learn a couple of handfuls of lessons in this episode, including whether you can change the culture of your community/city/region around how, why and how often they enjoy craft beer as part of a healthy lifestyle. To do or do not to do in regards to having a restaurant in your brewery. The management of multiple tasting rooms. And why you can’t find someone to do the owner’s job for 20K/year.
This was a moving episode and a special one for me. So open up your hearts and ears and maybe you’ll learn something about How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
You can reach the Kazmers at
Sarakazmer26@gmail.com
Samkazmer@gmail.com
Kiernan May is a cool guy.
He transitioned from a corporate career to open a brewery in New York with big dreams and a bigger bag of passion.
His brewery was built on Kiernan’s analytic and logical understanding of the world that surrounded him. He put the pieces and plans together in a way that was structured and strategic. He grew sensibly, understanding his limitations and how to operate within them. He leveraged his contact brewing model and the flexibility that it gave him to utilize other sales channels and distribution options.
And he did it before the last huge swell in craft breweries. Opening in 2004 should have (and to an extent it did) given him an advantage compared to the brewery business landscape of 2025. But, as you’ll hear, even operating in a climate of just over 1000 breweries didn’t protect his business from escaping a fate fans of this show know happens all too often these days.
So listen in to the story of Kiernan May and the Landmark Brewery’s 8-year run and you might just learn How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
You’re about to hear the story of Matt Swan and the late Tumbledown Brewery from Farmington, Maine.
Opened in 2014 and closed late 2025, Matt’s experience is varied and truly interesting.
His is the first brewery we’ve talked to from Maine and the only one with a red ale as it’s flagship. We cover a lot of ground from distribution, burnout, capitalization and contract brewing.
One of my favorite parts of this story is that he opened as the only brewery around for miles and the only brewery in Farmington. But a farmhouse taphouse/restaurant opened right before Covid and put the screws to his business.
How are people still telling me there’s always room for one more brewery?
Anyways, Matt is a truly cool guy that was open, honest and willing to share everything he learned in 11 years. He and I both hope it helps you to understand a little better, How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
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Tanglefoot made some solid lagers in an unlikely place. Temple, TX is a town of about 90K people about an hour to Austin. A huge segment of that population has Czech blood in their veins and a thirst for beer from the Old Country.
But as Andy Martinec found out the hard way, that didn’t necessarily mean they would support a local business making great examples of Czech lagers. You’re about to hear his story of struggling to make beer into a business for a few years before having to announce a final service day in June, 2024.
Tanglefoot was one of my favorite lagers here in TX so this is the interview I never wanted to do. But I caught up with Andy in the brewery a few weeks after closing and he was gracious enough to share his story with all of us. And I know it will help you to understand a little more about HOW NOT TO START A DAMN BREWERY.
Episode Sponsored by:
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Pono Brewing of Portland Oregon was conceived as a lifestyle as much if not more than a beer brand. The beers were lively, fun, inventive and everything a craft brewery should be.
Larry Clouser and his partners grew from humble beginnings as a contract brewery to statewide distribution to opening a brewpub/restaurant before finally closing the doors in 2023.
Larry’s story covers contract brewing in a market that wasn’t sure how it felt about it. And partners that struggled to decide how they felt about it. We’ll touch on partnerships in general and the financial pitfalls in particular. Hell, we’ll even get on Kool-aid beers before we’re done talking today.
When Pono Brewing finally poured it’s last beer, Larry faced head-on the same anxiety and depression many of of did.
But with the help of friends and family, he overcame the hardships, rose back up and is now on the path to creating a less stressful life for his family. And his openness and honesty will hopefully help you consider the role of your family on your current or future dream of owning a craft brewery.
Thanks to Larry’s priceless lessons and advice all of us will have a better understanding of How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
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Blue Cat Brewpub was an Illinois icon. One of the state’s first brewpubs, they made award-winning beer for 23 years.
After the owners sold and the brewery was rebranded unsuccessfully, the new owners were looking for a way to save the dream.
That’s where Charlie Cole came marching into the picture.
After working at most of the Quad-city’s breweries, hosting a beer-centric radio show and snagging more brewing education than I think anyone on this show has, Charlie decided to parter up with the new owners.
The goal? Recreate the magic of Blue Cat and parlay that success into a distribution strategy to build the brand beyond anything it had ever achieved in it’s golden years.
As I’m sure you’ve guessed, that isn’t what happened and the new Blue Cat shuttered in 2023 after calamity ended in catastrophe.
Listen in and learn How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery with Charlie Cole and the Blue Cat Brewing Company.
Episode Sponsored by:
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And now for something a little different.
I came across an article in the San Francisco Chronicle, thanks to my sister-in-law, that cited the struggles of the California wine industry. I found the similarities to the struggles that the people behind their beer businesses face to be truly compelling and undeniably relevant.
So I reached out to Megan Bell from Margins Wine because her quotes in the article were honest in ways I see few entrepreneurs able or willing to be.
The path of her winery and the legacy she’s built winds through struggle, success, pivots and uncertainty. Her experience educates us on nationwide distribution, the role of DTC sales, club memberships and own-premise sales over the bar.
I was able to grab a few bottles of her wine and found her approach to wine and business to be eerily similar to what my wife and mine was with our brewery. And what many people I talk to either tried before, are trying today or are hoping to try one day in their business.
You have my word that the story of Megan Bell and her story of Margins Wine will not only help you to be a better Bev/alc business owner but will teach you How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
Episode Sponsored by:
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In the span of a decade, Michigan saw a major craft beer boom, going from around 100 craft breweries to upwards of 400.
In the middle of that marketplace Kevin DeGrood opened Michigan’s North Center Brewing way back in 2015. He watched a fairly virgin market become deflowered with nearly 30 breweries just during the time he was finalizing his business plan.
His start up was methodical, specific and, by many accounts, the right way to do it. Unfortunately through a mix of employment issues, changing customer tastes and a near-impossible distribution market, his brewery finally closed a few months ago on St Patty’s Day.
Kevin’s story highlights how the right brewery can still end up on the wrong end of a P&L. He’s smart, passionate and, thankfully, open to sharing his story so that we can all learn from him How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
The focus of this show has always been to tell the stories of beer operations that one day turned off the lights for the last time.
I’ve chosen to be very selective when considering interviewing breweries that are still stirring their mashes. To date, I’ve only shared 5. There are a lot of reasons why but based on listener feedback, I’ve decided to look for opportunities to do it where it makes sense to the message of the podcast.
So I am excited, pleased and even a little proud to share the story of Deschutes Brewery with you in this episode.
Deschutes is one of those rare breweries that you can all but guarantee every other mouth next to you at the craft beer bar has tasted at some point in their craft beer journey. And, kinda miraculously, Deschutes still makes beer that appeals to both the young tongue and the seasoned craft beer fan.
Of course, over a 36-year career as a pioneer in craft beer Gary has struggled and failed on his way to becoming number 12 on the Brewer’s Association’s Top 50 Breweries list.
There was so much I didn’t know about one of America’s oldest craft breweries. And sitting down with Gary was a true pleasure - after which I walked away better able to tell you How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
And now, here’s Gary Fish and the story of Deschutes Brewery in Bend (and Portland) Oregon.
Deschutes Website
Deschutes Facebook
Deschutes Instagram
Episode Sponsored by:
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A few seasons back I realized that to truly tell the story of the business of craft beer, we needed input from other countries. So I reached out to Canadian, Australian, Norwegian, UK and South African breweries. Some of those interviews have already been released.
But the very first international guest I tried to get was Nick Law.
He not only had a beer brand but he’d started a podcast and a consulting company so I knew he brought a perspective we needed to hear from. And he and his businesses are in the UK.
Of course, with all that going on, Nick was quite busy. So he and I played email and phone tag for years, which I won when we finally connected at the end of 2023. We finally got to this interview in early 2024.
Like most of these stories, I go in thinking I know something about the brewery and the guest, only to come out on the other side of two intimate hours blown away with everything I didn’t know. And couldn’t have guessed.
And with that, Damn Audience, I present you with Nick Law and the story of Emmanuales and Hop Forward. I hope it gives you a little more insight into how NOT To Start A Damn Brewery. In any country.
Emmanuales Website
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Scott Hedeen was the quintessential beer fan. Back in the days when it was still cool to run all over Hell’s left testicle and cellar beers that don’t distribute to your state so you can trade them with other nerds of similar or increased nerdocity.
The only thing he may have been more into than beer was (maybe is) music.
But Scott’s on this podcast not because he sold his collection of rare beer to open a record label. No, he most likely would have been fabulously rich if he had done that.
Instead he liquidated some pretty amazing music memorabilia and rare records to fund the startup of Burnt Hickory Brewery, Georgia’s 8th craft brewery.
In 2012 the beer laws in Georgia weren’t exactly conducive to opening a craft brewery. But, like many of us, Scott and team Burnt Hickory sprinkled a heavy dose of ‘fuck it’ on their business plan and put the pedal down as hard as they could.
This is the story of Scott Hedeen and a little over a decade of Georgia’s Burnt Hickory Brewery. Listen in and let him and his story teach you How NOT To Start A Damn Brewery.
Burnt Hickory Brewery website
Burnt Hickory Brewery Facebook
Burnt Hickory Brewery X
Burnt Hickory Brewery Closing Announcement
Episode Sponsored by:
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Where to get my Damn Book
Rachel Rappa didn’t make beer. She imagined into life what grew into a large-scale kombucha brewery on Long Island in New York.
But the similarities between what she experienced growing her fermented sweet tea business to the craft beer industry are startling. She dealt with distributors, retailers, employees, seasonality, limited access to growth capital and packaging issues, just like we do.
She started as an artistic homebrewer and ended up owning 20BBL tanks and brewing primarily core styles. That could be the origin story for 80% of the craft breweries in America.
As you’ll hear, I really wanted to ask her about the advantages of Direct To Consumer sales, which turned out not to be the savior so many craft brewers think it is.
What really struck me about Rachel’s story was her journey to personal redemption. In the 3rd segment we really dive into why she finally closed her dream and why she’s now experiencing a depth of happiness deeper than she’s ever known. Her advice earned from her experience should inspire everyone everywhere to linger a little longer in front of the mirror today.
So sit back, listen in and let Rachel Rappa and the story of New York’s Coastal Craft Kombucha teach you how NOT to start a Damn brewery.
Coastal Craft Kombucha website
Coastal Craft Kombucha Facebook
Coastal Craft Kombucha Closing Announcement
Episode Sponsored by:
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When Dennis Espinosa partnered with his mom to open Main and 6 in Jacksonville Florida he had the highest of hopes.
In 2017, like pretty much everyone in craft beer, he only saw victory ahead.
Most people would agree that he was set up for success. He started with award-winning beers, bought the building and hired an designer to make it special. He won more awards for his beer, actually a ton of them from 2019/2020.
In the brewery’s 5th year, he won the coveted GABF Brewery of the Year. And was closed down less than 10 months later.
There are a lot of reasons for why his brewery died. Some we’ve heard before but some will surprise you. So listen in as we share the story of Dennis Espinosa and Jacksonville’s Main and 6 Brewing Company so we can learn How NOT To Start a Damn Brewery.
Main & 6 Brewing Facebook
Main & 6 Brewing Instagram
Main & 6 Brewing Closing Announcement
Episode Sponsored by:
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In 2023, the Australian Beer market was shocked by the announcement that a beloved brewery that had been awarded close to 40 medals for their beer was shutting down.
After 9 years blazing the path of Australia’s craft beer scene, Exit Brewing was planning to exit the brewing industry.
Around 2010, Grum & Frase had been inspired to start a brewery after spending time in Europe immersed in their beer culture. 4 years later they released their first beer, a saison. As their company grew, they expanded to an off-site taproom, followed by national and then international distribution.
But, like most of us, they couldn’t seem to find whatever rock profitability was hiding under. They tried rebrands, new beers, new partnerships. Frase left to get a real job.
I sat down with Grum to find out what happened, what went wrong and what the future of the Australian Craft Beer scene looks like. Hint: Grum exited it.
So open your minds and ears and listen to the story of Craig "Grum" Knight and Melbourne Australia’s Exit Brewing.
Exit Brewing Facebook
Exit Brewing Instagram
Exit Brewing X
Exit Brewing Opening Announcement
Exit Brewing Closing Announcement
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When Jason and Heather decided to open their brewery in Indiana they, like most of us, decided to do it their way. They looked at what existed and targeted providing their community with something new.
Jason made beer styles that he respected in traditional ways. That meant lower abv beers with flavor and consistency. The couple decided to specialize in their food offerings and target an underserved demographic in their market. That meant building one of the only vegan breweries I’ve ever heard of.
While their niche within a niche might be smaller than the one you set out to fill, in a way, every craft brewery does exactly this. They look at what they perceive as the boring and stale market that currently exists and dream up something new and exciting that will attract customers and their credit cards.
Jason hit all the road blocks head-on and did so very publicly. After fighting against Covid, toxic masculinity and a suboptimal location, he and Heather finally lowered the curtain on Escape Velocity Brewing in the summer of 2023.
There’s a lot to learn here so open up and listen in. This is the story of Jason Behanna and Lafayette, Indiana’s late Escape Velocity Brewing.
Escape Velocity Brewing website
Escape Velocity Brewing Facebook
Escape Velocity Brewing Instagram
Escape Velocity Brewing X
Escape Velocity Brewing Opening Announcement
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When Doug Appeldoorn got the inspiration to open his brewery, he wasn’t just any old home brewer.
He and co-founder Pietro first started a brewing collective that hosted events to champion creativity, inclusivity and the homebrew community of Toronto, Canada.
They followed virtually every home brewer’s dream and found a permanent space to create a brewery with the dream of taking their homebrew community with them on their journey to go pro. They hosted events for them, maintained taps for their beer and sponsored their everts. All while trying to grow their own fledging craft beer brand.
After opening in 2018 it didn’t take long for the financial part of running a brewery to take it’s toll on Doug. While his story and the story or People’s Pint hits some of the same notes we’ve heard already, I can assure you that his is a unique perspective that I’m proud to have the opportunity to share with y’all.
So please, settle in and enjoy the story of Doug Appeldoorn and Toronto’s People’s Pint Brewing Company.
People's Pint Brewing Facebook
People's Pint Brewing Instagram
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That may have been the moment that solidified the future of Oregon’s Flat Tail Brewery.
But the story of success, failure, embezzlement, money laundering and rebirth on the timeline of Dave Marliave’s craft beer career has so much more to teach us.
So I sat down with Dave to discuss what he’s felt, what he’s learned and how you can protect yourself from thieving partners and monopolistic distributors.
While the public demise of Flat Tail still swings in the breeze as one of craft beer’s bloodiest white collar true crime cases, the rise of New Spring and Dave’s impressive technical achievements are an inspiring look at how we can all make this industry better.
And here is the story of Dave Marliave, the late Flat Tail Brewing and the new New Spring Brewing.
Flat Tail Brewing Facebook
Flat Tail Brewing Instagram
New School Beer article about the lawsuit
New Spring Brewing Facebook
New Spring Brewing Instagram
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