They say that “Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made”.

This messy process is one of headaches Welsh Government Ministers face on the Fifth Floor of Ty Hywel . And this episode exposes it to public scrutiny for the first time.

Lee Waters speaks with fellow former Ministers, advisers, and civil servants to survey the main frustrations faced by those working inside the Welsh Government in getting things done.

The documentary podcast series has previously considered the range of Ministerial responsibilities, the pace of the civil service in delivering change, the relationship with local government, the weakness of scrutiny, and the management of political pressures.

The full set of interviews drawn on by this series have been published by Cardiff University :

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/_data/assets/pdf_file0010/2888677/Cathays-Conversations-Lee-Waters-2025-01-14.pdf