Adrian Wagner involved with both Complexity partners and the Pocket Project. We go deeply and concretely into the ins and outs of navigating complexity. We speak of the importance and power of micro-empathic moments. We also speak alot at the right level of granularity. How activism could be be reframed as finding a point where 'they' cannot hate 'us' anymore because we're involved with mutual local action. We speak about how precision is love and inquire into what would happen if we took god just a little more seriously than ourselves. This is a gem of a conversation. Enjoy! And here is the link to the release of the book (30th june2025)