What if business could be as human, and as messy, as life itself? What if being an ethical leader wasn’t about hitting some mythical state of perfection, but rather about showing up, getting a little lost, and finding your values again and again along the way? On this episode of What’s the Big Idea, Andrew sits down with David Gelles, New York Times reporter, bestselling author, and one of the most thoughtful chroniclers of modern leadership and capitalism. If you’ve grappled with questions about doing “good business” or wondered whether it’s really possible to put planet and people on equal footing with profit, David’s the guy you want in your corner. His latest book, Dirtbag Billionaire, tells the wild and often contradictory story of Yvon Chouinard, founder of Patagonia, who not only built a world-class company on his own weird, gritty values, but ultimately gave the whole thing away. This episode goes way deeper than another pat case study in “purpose-driven business.” Andrew and David push into the real questions: What does it actually look like to build a values-driven company while wrestling with your own imperfections? Can you succeed in capitalism without losing your integrity? And why is holding steady to your purpose so hard, and so necessary, right now? Here’s what you’ll take away: The Real Story Behind Patagonia: David strips away the glossy myth and shows us the messy, human, deeply paradoxical path that Chouinard and Patagonia actually walked. You’ll hear how sticking to your values doesn’t mean getting it right every time, and why the magic is in working through the contradictions. Consistency vs. Perfection: Learn why it’s not about speaking out on every issue, but about aligning your actions, and your silences, with your true commitments, even (especially) when it’s inconvenient or costly. The Power (and Cost) of Radical Purpose: Hear what happened when Patagonia’s founding family gave away the company and renounced billions, and what it really takes for leaders to use business as a platform for something much bigger than themselves. Success Models That Don’t Look Like the Cliché: Curious who else is out there, quietly (or not-so-quietly) redefining what ethical business can look like? David names names, from Eileen Fisher to unlikely manufacturing CEOs, and shares how even “normal” companies can live their values. Why does this matter? Because for founders, leaders, and anyone wanting to build something that endures and honors their deepest values, the path is rarely black-and-white. In a time when corporate activism, mission-washing, and burnout all mix together, it’s deeply heartening, and genuinely useful, to see that “doing it right” is mostly about staying present to your own messiness, learning as you go, and never mistaking profit for purpose. If you want frameworks, real stories, and the unvarnished truth about leading with integrity in modern business, you’ll find all that and more here. Listen in for a conversation that’s thoughtful, honest, and rooted in the idea that being an ethical leader is less about being a saint and more about coming back, again and again, to what matters most.