In this conversation, George Weiner speaks with Ken Berger, the former CEO of Charity Navigator, about the evolution of nonprofit evaluation, the challenges of measuring overhead, and the importance of adapting to changing funding landscapes. They discuss the impact of effective altruism, the necessity of mergers in the nonprofit sector, and the role of storytelling and data in demonstrating outcomes. Ken shares valuable insights and advice for current and future nonprofit leaders, emphasizing the need for humility, collaboration, and strategic planning in navigating the complexities of the nonprofit world. takeaways The overhead debate has historically hurt nonprofits. Metrics for evaluating nonprofits are evolving beyond just overhead. Nonprofits must strategically manage their overhead to thrive. Advocacy and strategic planning are crucial in times of funding cuts. Mergers can be a viable solution for struggling nonprofits. Effective altruism has its limitations and assumptions. Measuring outcomes is a significant challenge for many nonprofits. Data can help bridge the gap between outputs and meaningful outcomes. Storytelling remains a powerful tool for nonprofits. Future nonprofit leaders must be humble and open to learning.