The very terrific Dan Davies and I discuss his new book, and how Stafford Beer’s management cybernetics can help us make sense of what’s going wrong, and do something about it. Hint: we’ve fallen for the idea that massive systems can be effectively self-governing. But they can’t be. 00:00 - Highlights 01:52 - Introducing Dan Davies and The Unaccountability Machine 03:05 - The book in a nutshell. 06:08 - Marx 08:04 - Critical thinking, the professions and academic disciplines 11:35 - Economists and in particular Friedrich Hayek 19:14 - Ideologies 24:01 - Why humour is so often one of the best forms of insight and critique 25:52 - The purpose of a system is what it does 29:20 - The idiocy of mission statement 34:57 - Systems and governance 38:36 - Dan's marvellous metaphor of two ways to solve Rubik’s cube 41:46 - Management and managerialism 49:12 - Governments during covid: the failure to think critically 52:39 - Brand managers 56:32 - Thames water 59:42 - Debt as the driver of 'hollowing out' 1:02:57 - The CAMO response to an intellectual impasse. 1:05:45 - Back to humour as our conclusion