Kevin Butcher is a dear friend of mine, and I loved this conversation. He just can't stop talking about God's expansive love, and I can't get enough of it.  He was a Pastor for thirty-five years, but now he's the Founder and Executive Director of Rooted Ministries, a nonprofit that comes alongside isolated, wounded, discouraged pastors and their families.  His brand new book is called Free: Rescued from Shame-Based Religion, Released into the Life-Giving Love of Jesus. I'd encourage you to pick it up today wherever you like to buy books. But if you order by clicking this link, you'll be supporting my favorite small bookstore, Hearts & Minds, owned and operated by Byron & Beth Borger. Just fill out the title and the author on their order page (it's easy) and they'll get it to you asap.