Sam and Joe discuss some of Adam Phillips' ideas about extending therapy outside the therapists office. This leads to discussion of using Chat GPT for mental health and a dive into the hosts own experiences of therapy.
Sam and Joe discuss a School of Life Quote:
"But two truths would help:
1. There aren't that many people we genuinely like.
2. There aren't that many people who deeply like us back. The sooner we accept this, the gentler the experience becomes."
Sam and Joe discuss an Eckhart Tolle quote which launches them into a broader discussion of loneliness vs solitude. Also discussed is the latest post from Alain de Botton, you can find a link here: https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxIxHSMpzz1Lc45g-e3W8bt_PMO3oFVYU4
Is this episode Joe and Sam get into attraction. Capricious, fleeting, hard to pin down. More than just boobs and bums and 90's pin ups? We seem to think so.
Sam and Joe discuss listener Kate's question about "radical honesty". They also get into rigorous honesty, brutal honesty and kind honesty.
Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_honesty
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26792/honesty0707/
Image: Giorgio Trovato
Sam and Joe discuss this quote:
Behind the sometimes seemingly random or even chaotic succession of events in our lives as well as in the world lies concealed the unfolding of a higher order and purpose.
This is beautifully expressed in the Zen saying "The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place." We can never understand this higher order through thinking about it because whatever we think about is content; whereas, the higher order emanates from the formless realm of consciousness, from universal intelligence. But we can glimpse it, and more than that, align ourselves with it, which means be conscious participants in the unfolding of that higher purpose.
Eckhart Tolle - A New Earth
This episode includes a personal reference to AA. I fully respect the tradition of anonymity and am speaking only from my own experience, not on behalf of AA. - Joe
Image: Kirill Pershin
Sam and Joe answer listener Lou's question which is:
"How do you talk about mental health or neurodiversity with people who don’t get it?"
Image: Noah Buscher
Sam and Joe take on listener Liv’s topic about reaction, reactivity and being “triggered”. This leads to personal reflections on responses to geopolitical events and other things in life that lead them to react strongly. Some big world problems get a thorough going over and some interpersonal beefs get ironed out.
Image: Johannes Plenio
Sam and Joe reunite to tackle Verse Two of the Tao Te Ching:
Everybody on earth knowing
that beauty is beautiful
makes ugliness.
Everybody knowing
that goodness is good
makes wickedness.
For being and nonbeing
arise together;
hard and easy
complete each other;
long and short
shape each other;
note and voice
make the music together;
before and after
follow each other.
That’s why the wise soul
does without doing,
teaches without talking.
The things of this world
exist, they are;
you can’t refuse them.
To bear and not to own;
to act and not lay claim;
to do the work and let it go:
for just letting it go
is what makes it stay.
Sam and Joe discuss Verse One of the Tao Te Ching and how it relates to their own experience of reality.
TAO called TAO is not TAO.
Names can name no lasting name.
Nameless: the origin of heaven and earth.
Naming: the mother of ten thousand things.
Empty of desire, perceive mystery.
Filled with desire, perceive manifestations.
These have the same source, but different names.
Call them both deep-
Deep and deep again deep:
The gateway to all mystery.
76 translations of Chapter 1 - https://www.taoistic.com/taoteching/taoteching-chapter1-versions.htm
Thank you to Kate for asking about a refeeence, which reminded me to add this! You are an inspiration as a listener and correspondent.
Characters: https://www.taoistic.com/images/taoteching-verse1.png
Creators & Guests
Sam and Joe discuss the poem Desiderata and how it relates to their experience of life on earth.
Desiderata
Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
by Max Ehrmann ©1927
Sam and Joe are back after a long break with a juicy quote from their old friend Carl Jung. Myths, archetypes, figures of light, dark caves with dragons and treasure, it's a wild ride. Enjoy!
This realization that the separate self is an illusion must be one of the most useful things I've ever learned. I spent most of my life assuming that I was a separate self-contained unit and I felt disconnected from those around me. From the universe as a whole.
But where exactly is this seat of the self? Where's the little Joe who's up there in my head, directing everything? Where is the seat of attention? If I look for myself, where do I find myself? I find a constant flow of sense data, sights, sounds, smells, temperature. I find thoughts. But who are these thoughts occurring to?
As Jack Kornfield says, identification and clinging harden the water into ice. The closest thing I can find to a separate self is this contraction in my chest that seems to create some kind of locus in time and space.
But actually I am in no way separate from the flow. This has been seen through for me in meditation. What I find in meditation, if I have a good session, is I drop into a much larger, possibly infinite, ocean of awake awareness. Which mostly has a fairly neutral quality, but there's actually a lovingness there. A gentle sense of support. And I find this encouraging to say the least.
Of course, I have a social self and I need to function. And go to work and perform my roles in society. But there's no need to constantly reify the separate self, this particle, somehow split off from the rest of the universe.
What I actually find is an openness, a sort of infinite openness, where I used to imagine my separate self to be. Jack Kornfield talks about ice and water. I've heard it talked about in terms of a wave. A wave that somehow thinks it's separate from the ocean. Or a sunbeam that's forgotten it's part of the sun. I'm a part of something much bigger than I always took myself to be. But it's also something incredibly simple. It's just the present moment. I'm not separate to you who's reading this. I really am just part of this flow.
I only care about this because I guess I've always just wanted to know the truth. I guess I've always suffered feeling so separate from things around me. It's a great relief when I realize and drop into the fact that I'm this open, loving awareness. And I can then accept everything just exactly the way it is in the present moment. After all, what other choice, do I really have?
Creators & Guests
Image: courtesy of Craig over at https://wish-art.blog
---------------------
More about the author of today's quote:
Jack Kornfield (born 1945) is an American writer and teacher in the Vipassana movement in American Theravada Buddhism.[1] He trained as a Buddhist monk in Thailand, Burma and India,[2] first as a student of the Thai forest master Ajahn Chah and Mahasi Sayadaw of Burma. He has taught mindfulness meditation worldwide since 1974. In 1975, he co-founded the Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts, with Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein, and subsequently[clarification needed] in 1987, Spirit Rock Meditation Center in Woodacre, California. Kornfield has worked as a peacemaker and activist, organized teacher training, and led international gatherings of Buddhist teachers including the Dalai Lama. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kornfield
Website | jackkornfield.com
More about The Wise Heart
This is the fifth in a series of reflections by Joe on quotes he found helpful or striking. He has some good writing over at https://joeloh.substack.com/
Creators & Guests
Source:
About the author:
Eckhart Tolle (/ˈɛkɑːrt ˈtɒlə/ EK-art TOL-ə; German: [ˈɛkhaʁt ˈtɔlə]; born Ulrich Leonard Tölle, 16 February 1948) is a German-born spiritual teacher[1][2] and self-help author. His books include The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment (1997), A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose (2005) and the picture book Guardians of Being (2009).Tolle came to prominence as a self-help author in the U.S. and internationally beginning in 2000, after Oprah Winfrey promoted his books in 2000 and 2005 and created webinars for him in 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle
A longer summary of the book here: https://medium.com/@saadwrkacnt/a-deep-dive-into-the-power-of-now-by-eckhart-tolle-ac6446b0aa7c
------------------
That's from Eckhart Tolle from The Power of Now. I've always had the sense when it comes to sex, that it's more than just a couple of animals, rutting. There always seem to be a lot more going on in that realm for me and I do think it is a sense of oneness. The self dropping away. A merging with another person. A deep connection that I really haven't found in any other way.
But also maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm putting too much on sex, and it is just a physical act with no meaning. But when I found this piece of writing, it really spoke to me about my experience of sex. But as he says, it's no more than a fleeting glimpse of wholeness. An instant of bliss. There's a much greater oneness, that's quite hard to talk about, that can be referred to as non-duality. A sense of nothing being separate. A sense of only the world, the entire world, existing in this present moment. Which is really what the book, The Power of Now is all about. And it is a book I've re-read about four times now. He does a good job of talking about something that's very hard to put into words. But I really believe from my own experience that it's duality that is the illusion and it's oneness that is the truth. So all the separateness and loneliness and apartness that I feel, it's actually an illusion. That brief glimpse of heaven that can happen during sex, it's actually a glimpse of reality. It's actually breaking out of the illusion. But I know for myself, it can become obsessive to pursue those moments. And then I head into something which is more like addiction. And at that point, I'm even further away from the oneness that I'm seeking than I ever was before. I think there's an incredible power around sex and love and I think that I'm someone who's been sold a crock in terms of romanticism and the idea that the right person will complete me, make me feel whole and resolve everything.
So it's this tricky balance for me of. Seeing the spirituality in sex. But realizing that for me, It's my spiritual life that's going to give me that sense of wholeness and oneness and connection with the universe. And if I keep trying to find it in fleeting moments of peace I'm only gonna end up unsatisfied. I know what it is to go towards oneness but it's not something that’s easy for me to explain. But I know what it feels like. And for me, it's really about seeing through the illusions and seeing through 150 years of romanticism and seeing through Hollywood and advertising and everything that's led me to believe that the only way to find happiness and contentment is to find the one. But the reality is I'm the one I've always been looking for and home has always been right here.
And when I've looked for it in other places, other than deep down within, it's caused me so much pain. Really the majority of pain I've had in my life has been in this area. But the high’s have been high too. I guess for me, developing a spiritual life is about reassessing everything. Starting from scratch. And a reading like this really makes me question a lot of things that I took for granted. But also explain some things to me. Like, why have always seen sex is so profound and meaningful. When I know to a lot of people, it's just a bit of fun. And it's really no big deal. For me, I have unconsciously seen it as a means of salvation and I really hope that I can start looking somewhere else. Probably deep down within, for that feeling of okayn...
Transcript:
That's Joseph Campbell from an interview he did. I won’t pretend to be an expert on what the anima is but I took note of this because it resonated with me. I can see that I've done this throughout my adult life. It's to project something, onto a woman in my case. And then basically have a relationship with that projection.
And there's an incredible high that comes from doing that. And they become perfected in your mind. And quite often I can take photos of women when I'm in this state, they will be sitting in a café or wherever, and it will be a particularly attractive photo of them. And quite often they get some kind of high out of it too.
But as Joseph Campbell says:
“Pretty soon you say through the projection. And then what happens?”
Well, in my case, what happens is I tend to end the relationship. And often the women are left hurt and confused about what went wrong.
And it reminds me of the Joni Mitchell quote about monogamy and how if all you ever have is short-term relationships and casual dating then basically, you’re just dating yourself over and over again. Telling the same stories, revealing the same small parts of yourself, and having the same fun.
Whereas to really go deep with someone and commit and really get into the complexities of getting to know someone is to have a much deeper experience. But I think that moves you past romantic love and chemistry and all the hedonism that's inherent in all those chemicals floating around. I think that moves you to something that maybe feels a lot more ordinary a lot of the time. That slow layering process of really getting to know one person.
And sitting here now I can see that that is an ideal for me. The problem I have is whenever I meet a new person, I tend to project my anima onto them and have the same relationship over and over again. I’m trying to get out of that trap and move onto hopefully something more profound.
Creators & Guests
Joseph Campbell is also one of my go-to teachers. Not necessarily an authority on up to date folklore, but certainly someone who can open you up to new ideas and give you courage to face fears and challenges. Campbell has helped many people greatly with perhaps one the hardest things in life, to actually face our true purposes and choose to move towards lives of greater meaning and yes, love.
Reading about anima/animus, I found an interesting summary of Jung's four levels of Eros (erotic romantic love) associated with development/integration of the anima. Maturation of romantic love felt towards women, moves from:
1. Eve: desire, needs, nourishment, security and love
2. Helen: recognition of women's intelligence, competences and achievements in their own right
3. Mary: Righteous, paragon of virtue: recognition of women's moral accomplishments I would say
4: Sophia: finally recognising women as wise and fully human, *gasp*, equal, and not at all an object.
-----------
I also found Maria Popova's wonderful article in the Marginalian, a great match with Joe's reflection today. Reviewing Pathways to Bliss, Campbell's book on love, purpose and reality, she also quotes Anais Nin, Zen teacher D.T Suzuki, Stendahl, Dan Savage and the poet Rilke. Popova offers a striking synthesis drawing on many sources, persuading us powerfully that embracing imperfection and compassion is the path to love and meaning. Joseph Campbell on Why Perfectionism Kills Love and the Pathway to Bliss in Romantic Relationships
Kindred Media has some powerful articles by Amy Wright Glenn, who works as a yoga teacher, doula and chaplain. Clearly she is someone who specialises in helping people at life's most difficult moments. She tells stories of love, grief, bliss and purpose.
"Much of our experience of love’s intensity is due to our search for the other part of our original selves. According to Aristophanes, no earthly joy can compare to this reunification."I welcome the superb clarity she brings to Campbell's ideas and her own insight.
While it’s human nature to sort through stories for meaning, I agree with Campbell about the supremacy of experience over meaning... Feeling is primary. Fully feeling brings integration and is the key to healing life traumas. Meaning comes later, if at all.Amy Wright Glenn in the same article, gives us a poignant outline of Campbell's notion of three kinds of love: Agape (universal sacred love), Eros (sexual), and Amor (romantic) with key observations about each. Highly recommended! https://kindredmedia.org/2015/03/joseph-campbell-love-and-follow-your-bliss/
Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 30, 1987) was an American writer. He was a professor of literature at Sarah Lawrence College who worked in comparative mythology and comparative religion. His work covers many aspects of the human experience. Campbell's best-known work is his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949), in which he discusses his theory of the journey of the archetypal hero shared by world mythologies, termed the monomyth.Since the publication of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell's theories have been applied by a wide variety of modern writers and artists. His philosophy has been summarized by his own often repeated phrase: "Follow your bliss."[6] He gained recognition in Hollywood when George Lucas credited Campbell's work as influencing his Star Wars saga.[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
For more great quotesfrom Campbell https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
Creators & Guests
Joe is writing over at https://joeloh.substack.com/ and it's genuinely sizzling stuff. You can tell he read Hunter S Thompson and Kerouac as a youngster, and since then I'm assuming he's read other stuff that sounds more mature, because his writing is kind of both of those things. It's present and truthful, and entirely unsentimental, but it has feelings in it. That link again: https://joeloh.substack.com/
- Sam
Image courtesy of Craig https://wish-art.blog/gallery/
____________________________________
More on the quote's source, A More Loving World: How to increase compassion, kindness and joy at https://www.theschooloflife.com/shop/a-more-loving-world/ An extract of the book is available at https://assets.theschooloflife.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/04143544/A-More-Loving-World_extract.pdf
About the author of today's quote:
Alain de Botton FRSL (/dəˈbɒtən/; born 20 December 1969) is a Swiss-born British author and public speaker. His books discuss various contemporary subjects and themes, emphasizing philosophy's relevance to everyday life. He published Essays in Love (1993), which went on to sell two million copies. Other bestsellers include How Proust Can Change Your Life (1997), Status Anxiety (2004), and The Architecture of Happiness (2006).He co-founded The School of Life in 2008 and Living Architecture in 2009.[1][2] In 2015, he was awarded "The Fellowship of Schopenhauer", an annual writers' award from the Melbourne Writers Festival, for that work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_de_Botton
More great quotes from Alain de Botton at https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alain_de_Botton
Transcript:
That's Alain de Botton. And that really struck me because I think I'd always given myself an out. That it didn't really matter what I did. That I was a small and insignificant person.
And as it says 'however mesmerized we are by the deplorable behaviour of powerful individuals...'
It always seemed enough to just look at someone like a Donald Trump, and just be like, "well, I'm nowhere near that bad, and I'm also nowhere near that powerful, so the things that I do don't really matter."
But as it says 'we are constantly capable of causing other people significant hurt.'
I look back and see a lot of burnt bridges. And actually burning bridges is the only way I know to deal with a lot of this stuff.
And I like to think that I have gotten better in sobriety and recovery.
But I've always had an edge that's capable of hurting people.
And I guess the point of this note and why I wrote it down at the time, and why it struck me so much, was this is the justification that I'd used for my poor behaviour in hurting people, that I was just a little insignificant ant.
And reflecting on it now, it's partially that insignificance that led to some of the rage, that led to some of the bitterness, that led to some of the poor behaviour.
So, I guess the thing that I'm trying to find now, is some genuine humility. And just getting myself out of the way and seeing other people, and other people have their struggles.
And to quote Bob Dylan's grandma, that "everyone walks a hard road."
And I know I'm not going to get this right. It's not going to be perfect.
But this quote reminds me that I matter to maybe a handful of people, but to those people I really matter. And I have to be really careful to try to be kind wherever I possibly can.
And it doesn't matter what's happened to me. It doesn't matter whether I've been given a diagnosis or I feel like I've had a hard time in life.
It actually only matters how I act in the world.
That's what I'll be judged on. And that's what I should be judged on.
I need to get my thoughts right. And my emotions, right. And then hopefully my actions will improve.
All that is necessary then is to rest undistractedly in the immediate present, in this very instant in time.
And if we become drawn away by thoughts, by longings, by hopes and fears, again and again we can return to this present moment.
We are here.
We are carried off as if by the wind, and as if by the wind, we are brought back.
When one thought has ended and another has not begun, we can rest in that space.
We train in returning to the unchanging heart of this very moment.
All compassion and all inspiration come from that.
Pema Chodron - When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times (1997)
This short episode is from Joe, intended as the first of many, reflecting on passages he took note of in reading. Next week's main ep will explain more of the back story behind this new project.
Joe is writing over at https://joeloh.substack.com, and (Sam here) I say it's very good stuff. Very honest. Totally Joe. A rollicking read.
Creators & Guests
____________ ______________
About the author of today's quote:
Pema Chödrön (born Deirdre Blomfield-Brown, July 14, 1936) is an American Tibetan Buddhist. She is an ordained nun, former Acharya of Shambhala Buddhism and disciple of Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. Chödrön has written books and audiobooks, and is principal teacher at Gampo Abbey in Nova Scotia. Chödrön teaches the traditional "Yarne" retreat at Gampo Abbey each winter and the Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life in Berkeley each summer. (wikiquote)More Pema Chodron quotes at https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pema_Ch%C3%B6dr%C3%B6n
By the same author: How to Meditate: A Practical Guide to Making Friends with Your Mind (2008)
Romantic Realities: Deconstructing the Romantic Love Myth
We dive into the misconceptions of romantic love prevalent in Western culture, drawing on a quote from You Are the One You've Been Waiting For: Applying Internal Family Systems to Intimate Relationships, by Richard Swartz. Get the book from Internal Family Systems Institute at https://ifs-institute.com/you-are-one-youve-been-waiting
Sam mentions Let's Get Vulnerable: Relationship and Dating Advice podcast with Dr Morgan, yet again, but actually links to it this time. https://episodes.fm/1496034764 to find it on your podcast player of choice. But I use and recommend Podcast Guru, and Fountain, available on all phones ... anyway it's a great resource on attachment theory, and if you end up taking a workshop let Sam know how it goes.
Here's the quote:
Our Western culture and many of the relationship experts in it have issued us faulty maps and improper tools. We've been told that the love we need is a buried treasure, hidden in the heart of a special intimate partner. Once we find that partner, the love we crave should flow elixir like, filling our empty spaces and healing our pain.We touch on:
Episode image: courtesy of Craig - read stories and look at more great shots at https://wish-art.blog/gallery/
The show cover is from the filming of The KLF's Ancients of Mu clip - https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/apr/27/return-of-the-klf-bill-drummond-jimmy-cauty
Show theme is from Ehsan Gelsi - he just dropped a new song video today - it's nice synth instrumental music. Watch the maestro at work over at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN9XE0UKZDE
0:00 TTTT Is Love the Drug?
00:18 Myth of Romantic Love
02:10 Personal Stories: Rethinking Romance
04:53 Debating the Reality of Romantic Love
08:18 The Cultural and Biological Perspectives on Love
32:42 Navigating New Beginnings and Misunderstandings
32:54 The Journey of Moving In and Relationship Dynamics
33:22 Relationship Flags: Red, Yellow, and Green
36:10 Mental Health and Self-Awareness in Relationships
52:54 Reflections on Love, Choice, and Commitment
Listeners are producers. Thank you for getting the show out.
I reflect on my own podcast listening: helpful with insomnia, and a lifeline during tough times. Write me here
Reading a wide range of listener notes, I respond and explore
Themes around speaking, activism, expression:
Networked communal media not subject to the algorithm
Creators & Guests
00:00 The Life-Changing Power of Podcasts
01:11 Podcast Listening Habits
02:07 Podcast Listeners as Producers
03:38 Exploring Attachment Theory Through Listener Feedback
06:21 The Open Nature of Podcasting vs. Centralized Media
24:18 Embracing Vulnerability and Listener Connections
25:06 The Power of Envy and Personal Growth
25:36 Podcasting as a Form of Expression
30:02 The Impact of Listening and Speaking
32:27 Exploring Faith and Listener Feedback
Thinking back on favourite films, it becomes clear what they say about us. Cinema, the Psyche, unveiling Inner Heroes
It's always therapy and psychoanalysis around here, movies are the vehicle. Favourite films reflect deep psychological themes and evolving personal identities. What we once found aspirational in a character, we might later rethink, or realise it was not the healthiest hero to have. Others may have been right for the time.
So we mainly talk about movies our younger selves were drawn to, Pulp Fiction, Terminator 2, The Matrix, Le Samurai, The Thin Red Line, Beaches, When Harry Met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, Funny Girl, 'Now, Voyager', All About Eve, and Stella Dallas.
It's the usual mix of personal stories, and psychological insights, plus film analysis and some half-remembered film theory, looking at identification with film characters, self-perception, the making and collapsing of reality, and the separate self. We also touch on the gender dynamics in film identification, the concept of sacrificial love, and the role of cinema in shaping or reflecting social norms and personal dreams. It all brings us eventually to the universal quest for connection and meaning.
We delve into how these preferences illuminate our aspirations, fears, and personal development.
Creators & Guests
