Ron interviews Dr. Dinesh Verma, Professor of Systems Engineering and Executive Director, Systems Engineering Research Center (SERC), and Jeff Wilcox, Retired Vice President of Digital Transformation for Lockheed Martin.  In this episode, they discuss their paper published in the National Academy of Engineering entitled Leadership for a Complex Enterprise (https://www.nae.edu/244701/Leadership-for-a-Complex-Enterprise).  They discuss key Leadership tenets to enable a leader of a complex system to be more of a gardener, and less of a chess master.